I have travelled this world much more extensively than either Obama or Romney, and I still do. I find everywhere, even in areas of conflict and economic difficulty, the vast majority of people are friendly, even kind, and have very similar aspirations, across cultures, to personal development and emotional fulfilment.
The striking thing about tonight’s US Presidential “foreign policy” debate, is when it did occasionally discuss foreign policy, the world out there was discussed not as a place of vast potential, but as a deeply disturbing place full of foreigners who are, apparently, all evil except the Israelis, who are perfect.
The vast benefits from cooperation and trade with “abroad” were not mentioned once that I noticed (though I confess the thing was so awful my attention wandered occasionally). Europe apparently doesn’t exist, other than Greece which is nothing more than a terrible warning of the dangers of not being right wing enough.
The correct attitude to all these foreigners that God so unfortunately and inexplicably placed on this planet, is apparently to maintain incredibly large armed forces, murder people with drones (they were both very enthusiastic on this one), place sanctions on them and declare them “currency manipulators”. The only surprising note was that both agreed that they could not kill everyone in Iran.
But “We can’t just kill our way out of this mess” was spoken with regret, rather than as an affirmation of the possibilities of cooperation instead. What a grim and joyless world view. Maybe I had better not step out of this hotel into Africa this morning; those Islamists might get me.
What, in Hell, have been doing, Clark? :>)
have You been doing? Sheesh.
Jon/Clark. Is there a chance a ‘preview’ button could be used in this software?
Some, need it more than others š
Peaceful demonstrations don’t change anything.
If anyone disagrees, please can they post a counter-example. In particular, I issue the challenge of finding one single case in the UK in the last 40 years of a peaceful demonstration that has caused a government to reverse its attacks on living-standards. One single case!
So going on a peaceful march, listening to speeches, and then going home – this is not the way to force a government climbdown.
As for violence, it’s almost always the police who start it.
But my point is not to praise violence. There have been many violent demonstrations that haven’t achieved anything either.
Force is another matter. Of course force is what is required.
The question is absolutely NOT ‘how can we get ourselves on telly?’ We can’t use the media to force a reversal of government policy. This isn’t a bloody ‘national debate’!
The question is THIS: what can, say, 150,000 people on a demonstration do that makes the authorities reverse their austerity measures?
And if such a large number of people go on a demonstration with the willpower to ask such a question (what can we do, today, that works?), they will be able to answer it.
Screw the media.
Whose streets are they anyway? Whose buildings?
nostalgia,ah…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE
“Peaceful demonstrations donāt change anything.”
Hmmm. Two folks come to mind; MLK and Mohandas.
Aha. Thanks, Jon. Five toxic IP’s under “Komodo” – none of them me. Nothing under e-mail or my server IP (as far as I remember that)
I know I’m poisonous but this is ridiculous. *rolls on floor destroying ceramic items with thrashing tail*
Shalom doesn’t mean what you think it means.
A Simple Jew:
I’ll look silly if I take your post seriously, and then everyone comments to say your post is an obvious joke. But some people do actually think this way (“best nation”, “God-given”), so perhaps I’m not as far off the mark as I think I might be. I’ve clearly had a long day š
So, let me know if you’re being serious, and I’ll comment accordingly.
Komodo, sorry, not with you. What do you mean by Five toxic IPās under āKomodoā ā none of them me. Did your search at that link reveal that your corporate proxy server is blacklisted?
@Ben, on a preview button, good idea. No promises š but I’ll put it on the list.
Not sure A Simple Jew means what you think it means, Ben. Read it again. š
Perhaps it might be more true to say “peaceful demonstrations in isolation donāt change anything.”
Both King’s and Ghandi’s peaceful movements ran alongside campaigns of violence.
Jon:
My corporate IP is NOT blacklisted, either as name or numbers. My email address is NOT blacklisted. My nick is MULTIPLY blacklisted, but attached to OTHER IP’s. But if that were the problem, I would still be blocked, no?
Snarkasm is very difficult on the innertubes, good lizard. I often fail.
“Both Kingās and Ghandiās peaceful movements ran alongside campaigns of violence.”
I don’t recall violence being perpetrated by SCLC, but much violence was visited upon them.
The violence in India was between the Hindus and Muslims. Ghandi’s reaction was to fast until it stopped.
Not sure of your point, this time, Phil
Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version) 23 Oct, 2012 – 7:05 pm
I thought there were riots at various times during the civil rights movement, like immediately after King’s murder. But I know nothing about this so retract my assertion if you are saying otherwise.
However, in India violence was widely used against the British occupation.
If I thought he meant it, I’d do the bugger for antigoyism, Ben…
“A simple Jew” was actually promoting anti-semitism. Rubbish about Nazis collaborating with Zionists is one of the very few things that will get me to hit the delete button (which I did).
@Ben
Sorry, my use of language is poor. I didn’t mean ‘campaigns’. I was trying to say that there were outbreaks of violence.
Dang. There just isn’t enough hatred in the World. Let’s ramp it up some more.
(Jon; while you’re at it, see if you can add a snark button with ‘preview’)
Phil; Violence is often the step-child of peaceful movements, but I think the two persons I mentioned did their best to discourage because they knew the opposition could crush them in a NY minute.
I’ve often said the Palestinians would vanquish the Israelis if they could control themselves and use the same non-violent demonstrations. Of course, the opposition must have some semblance of conscience, and accountability to the population they represent.
“Nuid I see you have become a member of the Asteraceae family. Makes a nice change from reptiles and amphibians.”
Mary, I had to look up Asteraceae. You must be a gardener. š
I can do what’s necessary (I can even grow spuds) but I don’t do it for enjoyment or recreation. Possibly because I’m almost-phobic about insects.
“Pffft. She may look nice but her sapās insecticidal.”
I wish I’d known that years ago. I could have been the female Diarmuid Gavin.
“I never met my parents as both were gassed by the Nazis before I was born”
I think that was intended as a ‘joke’ alright.
@Ben
I didn’t mean to suggest that King or Ghandi advocated violence, merely that violence was used by others towards the same ends.
I seem to recall Micahel Moore attempting to persuade Arafat that the Palestian’s adopt non-violent protest to win over US opinion.
” merely that violence was used by others towards the same ends.”
Not even sure it’s the same ends, Phil. I remember the cult-classic Zardoz, wherein Sean Connery, the protagonist, was asked about the linchpin of his Revolution….
“Revenge”
It seems expedient (violence) but is counter-productive.
@Ben – Gandhi is not someone I would take seriously, and him not eating his dinner didn’t stop any war between Hindus and Muslims. But whatever might be said about him, surely no-one would suggest that a fast by such a high-caste individual is what we should all rely on to defeat the British government’s austerity measures.
As for Martin Luther King, I accept that you have got more of a point there, but the US government didn’t lose any money when introducing civil rights legislation. That is important, because essentially the movement for civil rights in the 1960s wasn’t a bitter fight against the federal government. A lot of demonstrations did involve violence (as is almost always the case, started by the police or violent opponents of the demonstrators); there was constant violence in the inner cities, which of course had an effect (and non-violence never helped anyone in such conflicts); and the most successful of the non-violent demonstrations still involved mass illegality by demonstrators. They was very different from some TUC-led day of action in London, but we probably agree on that!
We need a breakout, a mass action that is inspiring but not symbolic, that sets things alight, that pushes things beyond the point of no return. The vast majority of people in Britain oppose the austerity measures, think the government are a pack of crooks, and would love to see the banks given a bloody good kicking. If 150,000 people in a small area of central London can’t do that, who can? Whinging that they haven’t got on the telly is wallowing in weakness. The hell with the media. If anything is ever going to happen on the streets that brings all the crap crashing down, people shouldn’t be so obsessed with that effing stupid box with the moving pictures on it and the rubbish that passes for newspapers nowadays.
I’m sure I know Ben from elsewhere. Does cryptic as well as a goat I once came across. Corn might also be resonant. Others – ignore please.
A new alert from Medialens on a subject close to my heart:
‘Bad Pharma, Bad Journalism’
http://www.medialens.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=702:bad-pharma-bad-journalism&catid=25:alerts-2012&Itemid=69
Komodo, thanks. Will temporarily borrow your good name for some testing on a dead thread.
@Lizard
How are we supposed to ignore you when you’re thrashing around on the floor breaking the ceramics?