The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.
Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:
A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.
Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.
Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.
We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.
“R2D2 Of course I care. There was nothing in my comments to allow you to have a go.”
Apart from the continued references to his wife being estranged and the family being manipulated by the media – which quite frankly are of no relevance whatsover to their grief. You woould quite rightly criticise those who have made similar associations when it came to funerals of those killed by the IDF in the West Bank or Gaza.
كنت التسلل فلان وفلان، هل يمكن أن نفهم العربي
Clearly another example of Islamification, now the Board has gone Muslim too, with all this foreign mock spread all over this thread. Huh! If this does not prove to those lilly livered liberal panzy pink lulu communists nothing else will!
“There is, in my estimation, no reason to believe the Woolwich killing is a conspiracy”
The victim was a soldier but was not in uniform at the time. Was he picked at random or was he specifically targeted? As yet we do not know but if it is the latter then that suggests a conspiracy of some kind because it was carefully planned.
The actual evidence in the public domain is rather sketchy and is also in a number of instances frankly bizarre. It seems to me we are not yet in a position to draw any firm conclusions about this case, including whether or not it involves a conspiracy.
The sky may not have fallen in but the Guardian Editors have chosen to suppress all comment on any article related to the Murder of Lee Rigby not as they claim “• Comments have been removed for legal reasons” but for political reasons.
The comments were not full of hate speech but were highly political.
I saved web archives of the comments “for legal reasons” which I recommend others do.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/26/mass-surveillance-lone-wolf-porter
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-far-right-three-points
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-killing-a-life-lost-and-more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/24/woolwich-killers-strike-listen
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/26/woolwich-damn-life-denying-ideologies
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-british-foreign-policy-role
Apparently the public cannot be trusted in this quarter of the “free press”
Fedup: Wallah, atakallam shwayya Araby bas! Laakin al-lugha al-arabiyya jamiila waagid.
The Guardian has removed comments from all Rigby-related. Email Greenwald and ask him if he’s ok with that.
MJ
Undoubtedly there are very strange instances about this case. But these unanswered questions doth not a conspiracy make. But these questions do of course keep my mind is open to it being a conspiracy, but things haven’t yet crossed my threshold to make me change my mind. They may well yet do so… it’s early days, 4 to be precise.
Agent Cameron is launching a new anti-terror task – the Tackling Extremism and Radicalization Task Force
(TERROR)(TERFOR). The group is set to monitor trends in radicalization and the dissemination of “poisonous narratives”, as well as radical preachers who target potential recruits.http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/may/26/david-cameron-anti-terror-task-force
Supported by the iron rod and shield of EDL & BNP and others, agent Cameron’s ‘Terror Task Force’ will put in place the constructs of a ‘value system’ to ring-fence pluralism and ensure an elite based coerced conformity ‘any which way’ including radicalisation and ‘staged terrorism’ in it’s armament essentially to obscure the hypocrisy of supporting and arming terrorist foreign fighters, a de rigueur lethal proxy needed to fulfill the neo-conservative agenda.
Indeed!
BTW certain commenters will be experiencing high blood pressure and even will be popping off their gaskets, with all this speaking in tongues! What more proof is there needed?
God Save …….. cuz no other fucker will!
Why Disinformation Works — Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2013/05/23/why-disinformation-works-paul-craig-roberts/
Mark Golding,
It might perhaps be valuable if TERFOR were also monitoring the trends in radicalisation and the dissemination of poisonous narratives of our intelligence services. They were very proud of their ability to turn German spies into double agents during wwii in interrogation (torture) centres like the London Cage; and we’re now 70 years on with such techniques – undoubtedly much improved in that time through the efforts of our own agencies and the CIA, FBI, ISI, etc.
Greenwald’s reply to my email;
“As for the deletion of the comments,I assume they’ll say something more than what they said, but the only thing I was told was that “lawyers” advised or demanded it, implying they’re concerned about legal liability arising from what is said about the London issue. My guess is that it’s about concerns that comments that incite hatred or attacks against Muslims could create legal liability for the Guardian, but that’s just my guess. They absolutely owe readers a much better explanation than what has thus far been provided.”
Glenn Greenwald
The murder of Lee Rigby was indeed a result of a conspiracy. At the very least, TWO people planned and executed the crime, thus making it a conspiracy. Is there a bigger conspiracy? I also have it on advice, that this was an operation by a faction within the Islamist umbrella organisation, Hizb ut Tahrir, that wants to accelerate the process of jihad. It looks to me like it’s going to fizzle away into an uneasy peace over the next few months provided there are no further deaths and police are able to contain the public backlash.
What I was told is that Lee Rigby was targetted not just as a British soldier, but as young caucasian who was representative of the bulk of the personnel of the British armed forces. The plan was to provoke a reaction, as the alleged killer made clear with his bizzare statement of wishing to start a war on the streets of London. The media were instructed to edit video accounts to reduce the bloody horror of the crime. Apparently, news of this kind causes a sharp spike in suicides as people who are close to the edge are nudged over. I also have read conflicting accounts of whether the victim was actually beheaded and minimal descriptions of his disemboweling. I think only eyewitnesses are able to give us an honest answer to these questions as mainstream media is taking advice from authorities and providing few details to quell public anger.
While the provoked reaction is still unfolding, it’s clear that there was no prospect of inciting a civil war with structural conditions for such a conflict still around forty years away.
Jermand
As a believer in Democracy and when Muslims are the majority, whereupon they vote dar-ul-Britannica into being, only for your awaited civil war does break out, you will of course be fighting on the side of the Muslims. That salwar kameez may come in useful after all.
I never said I was a believer in democracy. Certainly not the phony democracy of the UK. Clark and I fleshed out some issues related to democracy on another thread and I just accepted it was the best system in a bag of duds. The Soviets used to describe democracy as an arrangement wherein the majority get to oppress the minority. If I am one of the minority, why should I accept being oppressed?
“… lilly livered liberal panzy pink lulu communists…” FedUp.
I thought Lulu was a Thatcherite. 🙂
Wahdat.
[since we’re all at it now]
……………
Jemand, when, in 40 years’ time, I am Commander of the Faithful of the Muslim Parish of Glasgow, and we see the spirit of Kentigern’s mother dance between the minarets, do not worry, I will take you under my wing.
……………
Mark, thanks again. Some questions (anyone can answer, do please feel free to do so):
1) Basically, are you suggesting that the SS plant people in Muslim communities as agents provocateurs, much as they and Special Branch allegedly do/did wrt the Left and Environmental movements and as they, the Army and Special Branch did in Northern Ireland?
2) And are you suggesting that then, when needed, then switch them on to commit acts of terrorism to provoke a backlash which ultimately will enhance the power of the secret/hard state domestically and continue to propel the interests of geo-strategic objectives abroad?
This seems to be a normative technique, as we learn from all those stories of police officers et al who infiltrate(d) Left/Green groups.
3) Is the EDL an SS operation and/or an SS-penetrated and instrumentalised organisation? Can somebody please answer this very simple question?
4) Are there links b/w elements of the EDL and elements of/organisations within the Muslim communities in the UK? What exactly are these people doing with one another? Do they all have the same boss?
5) And what might be the role of people like the various caricature London preachers (I use that term with the utmost restraint; I would much prefer to use a rapid-fire series of multilingual pejorative expletives) with high public recognition in this type of dynamic? Are they SS agents?
” The Soviets used to describe democracy as an arrangement wherein the majority get to oppress the minority. If I am one of the minority, why should I accept being oppressed?”
In a Direct Democracy, yes. In a Representative Democracy, the system is designed to offset the tyranny of the majority, and in the US we have the tyranny of the minority.
Suhayl;
If I could answer most of your questions with one general answer;
The development of Confidential Informants has proceeded apace from law enforcement to national security because it works so well. Entrapment of foreign nationals is less risky because of the deniability, but Federal law agencies use ‘snitches’ and force them to forge the fraud on others in order to reduce their own sentencing in criminal cases, mostly drug-related. They don’t get involved with the set-up allowing the snitch to arrange the arrest of another, thereby making them not-guilty of ‘entrapment’. I believe these operations wrt terrorism are similar, but don’t have the risk of losing a court case from ‘poisoned fruit’, as there is little if any evidence indicating direct involvement with that set-up. They pretty much have free reign to do what they wish, and they do it frequently. ( I discussed this earlier wrt the movie ‘Snitch”)
Ah, this reminds me of P2OG;
Specifically, the plan “recommends the creation of a super-Intelligence Support Activity, an organization it dubs the Proactive, Preemptive Operations Group (P2OG), to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, intelligence and cover and deception. For example, the Pentagon and CIA would work together to increase human intelligence (HUMINT) forward/operational presence and to deploy new clandestine technical capabilities.” The purpose of P2OG would be in “‘stimulating reactions’ among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction, meaning it would prod terrorist cells into action, thus exposing them to ‘quick-response’ attacks by US forces.”[2] In other words, commit terror to incite terror, in order to react to terror.”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/state-sponsored-terror-british-and-american-black-ops-in-iraq/9447
“there were two SOE-trained forces pitched against each other in the jungles of Malaya” (Ed Vulliamy, The Observer)
Funny you should mention Ed Vulliamy, Suhayl. More people should know about how he hit the big time in journalism – http://whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/LIE/BOSNIA_PHOTO/bosnia.html
It was in Bosnia, of course, that NATO and the Western intelligence mafia perfected the method of flying in foreign jihadist militants to do its dirty work, and covering up their atrocities because they didn’t fit the cover story. By the time Libya came up for destabilisation, the West had added a new wrinkle – the “responsibility to protect” doctrine, which gave the media a limitless opportunity for moralising.
But Libya, and now Syria, have exposed these body-desecrating, bloodthirsty, sectarian, takfiri, gangsters as NATO’s foreign legionnaires.
But, I digress. Another book to mention. All The King’s Men by Robert Marshall. Subtitled “They Betrayed Their Own – The astonishing story of how MI6 treachery led to the loss of over 400 British and French agents”, it tells of the bitter rivalry between MI6 and SOE, and the eventual post-war triumph of MI6 when it took over, and buried, all the SOE records.
During decolonisation, and ever since, a similar turf war has existed between MI5 and MI6. What I didn’t realise till I read Empire of Secrets is that MI5 was the EMPIRE’s security service, with liaison officers installed in every every independent colony’s security service (Pakistan even ASKED for one!).
Very handy that this film of a court hearing in Kenya in 2010 has been retained and is available for broadcasting. It’s an absolute miracle.
Woolwich murder probe: suspect Michael Adebolajo held in Kenya in 2010
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22673164#
What is going on?
“What is going on?”
Sounds to me like a source and a News Org need to be prosecuted for ‘leaking’, April.
And, guess what – great piece by Russell Brand
http://www.russellbrand.tv/2013/05/woolwich/
I have lost track of the total number of arrests connected to Woolwich.
The two men arrested at Stansted have been charged with endangering an aircraft. Under what Act would those charges have been made?
UK plane alert: Pair charged with endangering aircraft
Pakistan International Airlines plane at Stansted Airport
RAF Typhoon jets were scrambled to escort the airliner to Stansted
/..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22671946
Two men have been charged with endangering an aircraft after RAF Typhoon jets escorted a passenger plane over the UK.
Tayyab Subhani, 30, and Mohammed Safdar, 41, both of Nelson, Lancashire, were detained at Stansted on Friday.
Police boarded the Pakistan International Airlines flight, originally en-route to Manchester, after it was diverted to Stansted.
The defendants are due at Chelmsford Magistrates’ Court on Monday
From the Obsesssive Poster, earlier this evening :
“The two men arrested at Stansted have been charged with endangering an aircraft. Under what Act would those charges have been made?”
————
Try the Aviation Security Act 1982.
PS – I must say that I’m surprised that the Obsessive Poster, who normally bombards us with material from the msm and God know where else was unable to find this out for herself (eg, by Googling and doing a bit of reading).
Which makes my wonder why she put the question. In any event, sorry, Obsessive Poster – the date of the act shows that you won’t be able to say that this particular piece of legislation is a manifestation of the “fascism” of the current government or its so-called “war against Muslims”.
Thanks for the link Dreoilin. If you go to youtube and search for “debunked”, you can find a lot of arguments and counter arguments related to specific events that have aroused conspiracy debates. I find the most convincing ones are engineering reports and those that present 3D modeled reconstructions of a disaster, like the collapse of WTC7 and the strike on the Pentagon.
. . . .
Thanks, Suhayl for your offer of sanctuary but I estimate that we will both be of “retirement” age by that time, too frail to be taken seriously by anyone, including family.
Of your open questions, I have myself been wondering to what extent the SS has provided support, encouragement and instructions to the EDL. I have no doubt that EDL members themselves do not know, as such an arrangement is politically too dangerous to construct without a very dark cloak of secrecy. It would be all off the books, plausibly deniable.
” The Soviets used to describe democracy as an arrangement wherein the majority get to oppress the minority.”
Which of course they would as they were a minority oppressing the majority – I think Nye Bevan made a quote about how you could judge civilisations by their treatment of minorities or something similar.
RE the diverted PIA flight from Manchester to Stansted. Could it have been a hijacking of the first mangoes of what promises to be an excellent season by southern-based fruiterers?
Woolwich 2013
(Thanks for the original, Jimi Hendrix.)
Machine Gun Drummer
Tearing my mind and heart
Machine Gun drummer
tearing a people apart
Evil Man make me kill ya
Evil Man make you kill me
Well that’s for sure either way
And they all of them safe all the while
Did they pick up their axe and fight like farmers?
Was it just a charade too far?
Well you know what I mean
And our sleep-walking partly to blame
All those spasms of rage to cover the shame
To stamp out the questions
To avoid naming Names
Nation of Terrors gifting wars over There
Evil Men we know you for sure from the red spattered rubble
Bombed out homes of Others, child’s hand in the dust
All that might have been, blown apart from the sky
Time to say No? No more to the Lies
Ain’t that hard to treat each other Right
When we’ve So Much to Offer why do we just Take?
Ain’t that hard a child would get it
re “poetry” :
Am I the only one to find the various “poems” which have been posted here recently pretty hopeless and untalented examples of the genre?
I mean, they’re really just prose, aren’t they, chopped up into lines and stanzas.