The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.
Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:
A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.
Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.
Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.
We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.
Samenleving, at 10:59am today: Thanks, I’ll check out ‘Empire of Secrets’, by Calder Walton – sounds fascinating. One phrase from the Observer’s review of the books stands out in the contexts we’ve been discussing here and is of relevance in relation to my point about setting-up different Far Right forces and then setting them to fight and to drive the agenda:
“there were two SOE-trained forces pitched against each other in the jungles of Malaya” (Ed Vulliamy, The Observer)
Here in the UK, might we be talking about the Jihadists and the EDL et al?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/jan/31/empire-secrets-calder-walton-review
I am always amazed by a small number of fools who descend further into the abyss of stupidity by resorting to time-tested racist, Islamophobic and Xenophobic rubbish.
Here’s to an ever greater number of British Muslim reverts in the UK, who hopefully will one day be in a majority and vote to live themselves under shariah law and stop the centuries long and totally despicable British militarism. I hope you’ll be among them Jemand.
P.S. I have this lovely salwar kameez for you.
When the attackers were ‘taken down’ by police you can see in a photo that 3 armed officers have all aimed at the guy on the ground, while the second perp is simply standing to their left pointing what is said to be a gun directly at them. Also, notice that a ‘civilian’ is standing directly opposite an armed officer’s raised weapons.
Can anyone see a problem with the police tactics and possible training failures here? I would suggest that they would be better off aiming their weapons at the terrorist who is still standing upright with a gun pointing at them.
I wonder why the terrorist is not shooting and just aiming, why take a gun that can’t shoot bullets, oh yeah – because he wants the police to shoot him, so why don’t they at this point? Maybe they do not feel in danger, perhaps they know his gun is jammed, or he has no bullets, if so why did they shoot him later?
All in all you have to say that the police are very fortunate indeed that their tactical and training failures went unpunished due to the gun being unable to fire.
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1907872.ece/ALTERNATES/s308/Suspect-1-and-suspect-2-with-police-at-the-scene-of-the-Woolwich-killing-1907872.jpg
@Jesuit Atheist
“I am not promoting any theory,”
Not yet perhaps – but your first post at the top of this page gives a pretty strong hint as to what it will be when it eventually arrives!
Millbank like their acronyms. I just came indoors as it is sweltering! and an expert was on the box telling BBC News about the structure of the security services.
He came out with JTAC.
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/about-us/who-we-are/organisation/joint-terrorism-analysis-centre.html
https://www.mi5.gov.uk/home/about-us/who-we-are/organisation.html
A 3 minute clip of the interview here Fedup. Any help>? It is not up on the iPlayer yet.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22671932
I think Jesuit Atheist is raising interesting questions. This whole affair was odd from the start.
Why didn’t people run away? Why did they stand around watching and filming guys with meat cleavers dripping blood in their hands?
Lwtc247 – “I am always amazed by a small number of fools who descend further into the abyss of stupidity by resorting to time-tested racist, Islamophobic and Xenophobic rubbish.
Here’s to an ever greater number of British Muslim reverts in the UK, who hopefully will one day be in a majority and vote to live themselves under shariah law and stop the centuries long and totally despicable British militarism. I hope you’ll be among them Jemand.
P.S. I have this lovely salwar kameez for you.”
. . . .
A few corrections.
1. Islam is not a “race”, it’s a social-political ideology, philosophy and way of life – like most religions.
2. Criticism and rejection of any ideology or philosophy is not a phobia. The popular application of the suffix “phobia” as a pseudo-psychological qualifier, pejoratively attempts to label particular social-political attitudes as symptomatic of mental illness. This tactic of calling people crazy for their unpopular views is common throughout history. Have you ever heard of anyone referred to as a Naziphobe? Sounds silly, doesn’t it?
3. Similar to #2, intelligent rejection of objectionable ideas such as superstitious bullshit that advocates discrimination and violence against disbelievers, regardless of their origin, is not “xenophobia”. So-called Xenophobia is a natural condition of primitive man who, under threat from many familiar and unfamiliar dangers, presents a hostile response as a preemptive survival measure. Our animal ancestory gave us this predisposition. While I reject Islam, I do not fear it. I just put my feet up and write about it.
4. Your hope that Muslims will be in majority and implement Sharia law in the UK should be reassuring to those who think that such an outcome is laughable.
5. No, sorry. I won’t be “among them”. I’m a dyed-in-the-wool Atheist and firm believer in humanist enlightenment. But I’m happy to have a pint with any stubborn Muslim any day of the week.
6. I won’t be wearing any frocks for you or anybody else… before midnight.
For the smart ones here, please don’t fall for this conspiracy bullshit that some punksters are peddling. There are plenty of real conspiracies by institutional players that must be exposed and these silly distractions simply undermine the credibility of private inquiry into them. Anytime you explore a real conspiracy, the immediate response from naysayers is “Oh, not another bloody conspiracy theory”. The establishment must love this obfuscation of the truth.
“Why didn’t people run away? Why did they stand around watching and filming guys with meat cleavers dripping blood in their hands?”
Yes. Also, although the corpse in the road appears headless, where’s the head gone? Can’t see any sign of it.
Manipulation by the media. A convoy of cars has brought the Rigby family to look at the flowers and tributes outside the Woolwich barracks. The TV cameras are there and also some minders. The estranged wife is holding a teddy bear and is still distraught. The reporter seems to know that the family are on their way back to Manchester. MoD PROs are obviously managing this.
Jesuit Atheist
The lamp post in the mirror article you have linked is obviously not patriotic enough, and hates England, our freedoms, fish and chips, and our values, thus easily has given up the ghost upon crash pronto, malingering and lying down on its side when it ought to have made a stand.
On the other hand the lamp post, and the sign posts in Woolwich are very patriotic, and love England so these made a stand against the “Muslims Scum” and showed the “vermin” Engerland is made of stern stuff, and no namby pamby fucking Muslim driving their poxy “stolen car”* under the influence of “drugs and crack”, listening to “journey of soul after life” can knock down this patriotic lamp post and sign posts!
The word is, in the next EDL march these newly found patriots will be taking part, wearing their combat camouflage proudly, and shouting slogans and shit.
BTW you have raised really good questions, and touched a nerve too, resulting in the resident conformity charge hands targeting you.
* so far there has been no mention of who the car belonged to? and where did it come from? The better story would of course throw everything in the book at them to include; the stolen car had no tax and drivers did not have a driving license and were not insured, as well as having been bilking petrol, and in possession of huge amounts of crack in the glove compartment.
=======
Thanks April Showers.
“intelligent rejection of objectionable ideas such as superstitious bullshit that advocates discrimination and violence against disbelievers”
Gosh, really. Except that:
“according to other verses, even if a Muslim deemed someone an infidel, according to the Quran, he is still obligated to:
1. Behave with courtesy :
Consider, for instance, the following verse, which is supposed to instruct Muslims as to how they should deal with non-Muslims in the midst of hostilities (such as war): 9:6 And if any of the Idolatries (who are fighting you) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:
If Muslims are to behave with such clemency and magnanimity vis-a-vis the infidel during times of war and conflict, how much more should be expected of their interactions with non-Muslims during times of peace?
2. Respect his freedom of choice to be a “Disbeliever” – as this is a right bestowed upon humanity by God:
Quran 18:29 proclaims, “The truth is from your Lord”: it is the free will of any person to believe (in God) or to be an Infidel (Un believer).
3. Even if a Muslim should be convinced that someone is a non-believer, still he must accept that his fate is in the hands of God alone, since no one human can condemn another – this must be left to the judgment of God.
Quran 88:25-26 for behold, unto (ONLY) Us (means God) will be their return, Then it will be for (ONLY) Us to Judge (humans).
22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean an ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.
“While I reject Islam, I do not fear it. I just put my feet up and write about it” – sadly without any facts, balance or first-hand research.
What’s in a sentence? Here’s one from the front page of yesterday’s Guardian.
Let’s deconstruct that sentence ….
“Ministers are reluctant …”
ministers don’t like restrictions on our liberty any more than we do
“… to reach for a barrage of new legislation …”
and we’re not talking about minor restrictions
“… in the wake of the terrorist murder of a soldier outside Woolwich barracks, …”
but this is why they just have to do it
“… but recognise …”
not ‘believe’, but rather they acknowledge what we and the Guardian already agree is a self-evident necessity
“… they need to do more …”
nothing drastic going on here, just a slight escalation in an ongoing process
“… to revive Labour’s stalled Prevent strategy…”
‘stalled’, not ‘rejected after being criticised as counter-productive by police, MPs, religious leaders, academics, etc.’
“… which was introduced by the previous government …”
So not just Tory ministers want this, it has unanimous support right across the political spectrum
“… in an attempt to forestall young people becoming involved with extremist groups.”
so it won’t affect the rest of us then?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/24/woolwich-killing-universities-campaign-radicalisation
April Showers
How do you think the family of Lee Rigby might feel about your comments, including the estranged wife whose son has lost a father? Do you care?
Technicolour, you’re an idiot and a hypocrite. Please don’t waste my time, any more. You selectively quote abrogated parts of the Quran like a desperate amateur academic, probably sourced from politically sanitised English versions, and ignore other written material that contradicts your apologism of Islam. You laugh off Islamist quotes by Muslim clerics and dismiss horrific acts of violence as “one-off”. You ignore the profound violence of Islamism in other parts of the world, the exponential growth of Muslim populations throughout Europe and then admonish me with manifestly false claims of ignoring or rejecting facts. I have to say, Technicolour, you are the most stubbornly ignorant and stupid person I have ever had the displeasure of wasting my time communicating with on this blog – or anywhere else, for that matter. Despite your pathetic self-depiction of being a loving, creepy-hug giving, home-made-woolen-jumper wearing peacenik, you are, in fact, a narcissistic left-wing loser and lonely spinster who craves pseudo-intellectual attention. Please get it from someone else. I’m done with you.
*hug*
Oooh, nasty, bitchy Jemand: or should I say, you Top Shop jumper wearing old slapper, you (?)
The facts remain: you have no facts. Those quotes are indeed in the Qu’ran. Look them up. They are used by clerics and other followers of Islam. It must be distressing to see the responses to your cries of ‘war! blood! endemic violence!” but since they exist, I’m afraid you’ll have to get used to it.
Riot police out in force after trouble on the streets of St George
So it begins, well done the fuckwits in pursuit of building their fucking empires, and waste of time fucking politicos for going along with them.
Quite spiteful, aren’t you? You and Fedup make a good tag team.
Distressing? Ermm,.. no. It is frustrating, however, dealing with fools who wilfully ignore objective facts and multiple sources of intelligent commentary and debate.
Can I ask you something, Technicolour? What was your major at uni?
Wehhhhhhheeeeeeey the prick who has a moniker as (“someone” in German) has a brain fart;
Why, slap my thigh, what next Mr. Darcy, I declare ……….
Bugger off you little waste of fucking food tosser, you have added not one bit of value to the debate other than regurgitating Anders Breivick Manifesto, and hate all along. What are you doing sitting there tapping away? You are needed in Bristol by your associates in EDL.
=====
Why don’t you ask that from their ruthless handlers exploiting the family’s grieving, for their own ends?
The macabre show is quiet indicative of the ruthlessness of the fuckwits behind the scenes choreographing it.
Fedup
High-stomach’d are they both, and full of ire,
In rage deaf as the sea, hasty as fire. Richard II.
Listen. In all societies a very small group of people succeed in manipulating the masses to their own benefit through an exceedingly nasty called politics, lies to you and me.
This happens in our society and it also happens in Muslim societies. Until and unless human beings listen to the scriptures that have been sent to them forbidding this selfish practise, it will continue in all societies, but un Christianity and Islam it is forbidden.
If you calmed down you wouldn’t have to misinterpret what I said by confusing the Muslims I mentioned who lie with the Muslims I mentioned who are lied to. But by confusing the two you did succeed in making what I said sound pretty unpleasant and racist. Calm down.
Suhayl Saadi
25 May, 2013 – 2:57 pm
“Sadly, they – Wahabism (or whatever one wants to call it)/Salafism/Islamism/Deobandism and the various combinations of all of these – have made, and continue to make, an enormous and profound impact on many Muslims in the UK and elsewhere.”
No, I disagree.
The most powerful forcing mechanism acting on the “radicalisation” of UK Muslims is that “elephant in the room” – British foreign policy.
Also, our foreign policy makes the job of the Muslim “hate preachers” much easier; their students are already radicalised by the sense of injustice that is fuelled by what they see on TV news, what they read in the press, what they see on the internet and the racism experienced in the streets and other places in the UK.
Add to that the institutional racism within our police and armed forces.
Not to forget also that we have our own “hate preachers” within the EDL, BNP, UKIP, the Tory party and, to name one individual, Melanie Phillips who, in my view, is the most conspicuous anti-Muslim “hate preacher” in the UK.
Good old wiki:
Islam is the largest and official religion of Malaysia, although Malaysia is a multi-religious society and the Malaysian constitution guarantees religious freedom. Despite the recognition of Islam as the state religion, the first 4 prime ministers have stressed that Malaysia could function as a secular state. According to the Population and Housing Census 2000 figures, approximately 60.4 percent of the population practised Islam; 19.2 percent Buddhism; 9.1 percent Christianity; 6.3 percent Hinduism; and 2.6 percent practise Confucianism, Taoism and other traditional Chinese religions. The remainder was accounted for by other faiths, including animism, folk religion, and Sikhism while 0.9% either reported having no religion or did not provide any information
R2D2 Of course I care. There was nothing in my comments to allow you to have a go. There WAS obvious media manipulation. Why else the reporters and the cameras? The widow WAS distraught. She WAS carrying a soft toy. The flowers ARE becoming as numerous as Kensington Palace in 1997. There WERE minders there. There WAS a convoy of cars. Anything else I can help you with?
See for yourself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=26Y1ojc6OrA&feature=endscreen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8dyeSCoKr8
I watched it on BBC. It went on for a much longer time than the few minutes of these Sky videos.
@Fedup
*hug*
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/rich-trzupek/malaysia-and-the-myth-of-islamic-tolerance/
For the second time, what was your major at uni, Technicolour?
Of course there are no floral tributes, balloons, soft toys and the like for these poor dead souls whose only crime was to live in Afghanistan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
I wonder how many of those deaths are attributable to Machine Gunner Lee Rigby whose last occupation was as a recruiting officer for his Fusilier regiment? NATO provided some footage of him using his machine gun which was shown on the news channels last night.
http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-05-24/nato-footage-shows-lee-rigby-on-operation-in-afghanistan/
This revolting man has been back in the media since Wednesday.
‘Not a shot will be fired’. How ironic that he went to work for G4S employed by Israel at their checkpoints, prisons and for security.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1111702/John-shot-fired-Reids-50-000-Iraq-security-job.html
http://www.bdsmovement.net/2013/g4s-responds-remains-complicit-10903
Jemand.
Well, at 1hr and 7mins I must admit it took you longer to do what I guessed you would do, which is, pointing out the obvious that Islam isn’t a race – not that anyone said it was of course.
I’m not saying you’re mentally ill, but I do suspect you hold rather ‘regrettable’ views regarding a particular faith, and I suspect the small yet visible number of foreigners who adhere to that faith.
Do look up the definition of xenophobia by the way – the definition that oethers use, as opposed to the one you hold on to as aptly depicted your ‘primitive’ cave-man like imagery.
Pretty much agree with you on the ‘conspiracy side of things’ There are indeed many conspiracies, but not everything is a conspiracy. Assignment of conspiracies where there is none is a dishonor towards those that died in real conspiracies such as the attacks on the WTC in NYC. There is, in my estimation, no reason to believe the Woolwich killing is a conspiracy, despite many important questions pertaining to it which really need answering but like 7/7 will not be answered.
I’ll raise my pint of orange juice to the future establishment of dar-ul-Britannica.
Come around some time. We we can watch Choorian Nahin Hathkarian together. Dun worry, it’s got subtitles.
Cheers.
Jemand: certainly, ask as much as you like. I’m not going to answer. I object to people being judged on whether their parents could afford to send them to university or not.
Otherwise, interesting link, albeit from a rather weighted site, and one which proves that there are a handful of lunatics everywhere; well done. I believe there have been quite a few attacks on mosques and synagogues here too. But glad to see the Malaysian government is protecting the safety of churches and other faiths, however, as well as the official religion. Also good to see that having no religion is perfectly acceptable too, I’m sure you’ll agree. اتمنى لك يوما طيبا
Your welcome Suhayl – A little back-ground is required to understand the techniques used by the intelligence services to ‘buddy up’ and take into one’s wing. Intimidation and sometimes bribery are always considered.
http://news.naij.com/35307.html