Only One Choice and Only for Scotland

by craig on June 5, 2013 10:28 am in Uncategorized

Would you like to be shot with a red gun or blue gun, sir? That is the limit of the choice being offered the UK electorate as New Labour announces it will keep the Coalition public spending plans and the Coalition benefit cuts. Given it will also throw away £100 billion on Trident, and New Labour initiated the rampant privatisation of the Health Service, PFI, Tuition Fees etc., my point could not have been more eloquently proven that the UK electorate is no longer offered any meaningful choice by the neo-con parties.

It also of course demolishes completely the Gordon Brown argument that Scots need to stay in the Union to put New Labour in to power. Who carries out Tory policies is not the question; and why a nation should surrender its freedom just to make sure Ed Balls has a ministerial car and salary while he implements Tory policies, is not a question which to me has an obvious answer.

The only meaningful political choice any part of the UK population will have in the foreseeable future is the Scottish Independence Referendum. If Scots do not take their chance, all they have ahead is economic decline and the collapse of public services. The choice could not be more stark.

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517 Comments

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  1. Just saw the report on this in that excuse for a left-wing newspaper – the Guardian – felt sick and came on here to read something that would comfort …

    The answer in Scotland has to lie with getting the media on board and somehow getting the message across. How that is achieved with BBC Scotland dominating the airwaves I just don’t know … wish I did.

    It’s just so depressing …

  2. If you put it that way, I’ll take the blue gun :)

    But then again, the Lib Dems will probably part company at the general election and have their own policies.

  3. So, how’s southern Ireland doing these days?

  4. marktheguitar

    5 Jun, 2013 - 11:37 am

    I am not entirely sure that independence for Scotland is the answer to anything. However I do entirely accept that if the majority want it, then so be it.

    Its taken the electorate a long long time to grasp the fact that the LIBLABCON have quietly
    stitched us up. Personally I am voting Ukip as they are the only real alternative at this time and Farage at least tells it like it is. The chance of real change at the top of each of the Liblabcon parties is at this time a non starter. It may happen, but only if they are squeezed out for a number of years.

  5. I Love the red or blue gun analogy. Left or Right have long been an unsuitable description of the 2 variations of the bought-and-paid-for Neoliberal concensus offered to the British people.

    Of course the Eds are demonising the poor. That’s the only way to keep the Bollinger flowing in Wasteminster and Canary Wharf.

    My take on it: Blue Labour – Because Bollinger Doesn’t Buy Itself and the Nanny Doesn’t Pay Herself

    http://logicsrock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/blue-labour-because-bollinger-doesnt.html

  6. Oh Mark – Farage is just another extension of the rightwing hydra, a different face for the same dollop of poison.

    As for independence – why does noone talk about the consequences of Scottish independence for the rest of the people of Britain? Without the counterbalance of Scotland, the right and the financial elite will consolidate their grip on power and life outside the southeast will get much worse than it is now. Does anyone doubt this?

  7. “So, how’s southern Ireland doing these days?”

    They’re coming to Britain because their health service sucks.

  8. People can talk all they want about this vote, but until both sidse place documents in the public domain with supporting evidence on the pros and cons, this will end up being another discussion based on verbal PR.

    Where is THE WEBSITE, where people are presented with the EVIDENCE that will allow them to make an informed choice?

    Oh, and I’m all for Scotland being able to decide its own fate, I just wish evidence was presented in one place for all to see.

  9. Your fellow Scotsman(?) George Galloway is very anti-Independence. I disagree with him. I think it’s time Scotland stop being raped by England.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CamjOvAmgW4

  10. “I am not entirely sure that independence for Scotland is the answer to anything. However I do entirely accept that if the majority want it, then so be it.”

    That’s the point, they don’t, they are getting it foisted on them by a bunch of flag waving fanatics asking us to believe the wankers at Holirood are somehow different to the wankers at Westminster. Well they aren’t, Scottish politics is rotten to the core, so is the legal profession.and the two work together.

    There still hasn’t been one single prosecution in the Edinburgh property repair scandal where there was a conspiracy, yes a proven conspiracy between the council officials, builders and the lawyers to steal from the people, rob them of their homes. The law firms involved still work for Edinburgh City Council.

    That is the sort of injustice metered out by that parcel of rogues down in Edinburgh and that is the sort of injustice the people of Scotland can expect a lot more of should they vote for independence.

    They can waste a billion pounds on tramways nobody want while they close our libraries.

  11. Mike Cobley,

    It’s a tad obvious is it not? No one talks about the consequences of Scotland leaving the Union south of the border because people see Scotland as an “that bit up there, full of lazy drunks, spongers, violent criminals and idiots”. Why would losing Scotland make a shred of difference to what will remain of the UK?

    I foresee chaos and another large dose of Shock Doctrine inflicted on what remains of the UK should Scotland vote Yes. It’s up to those in rUK to prepare themselves. If they don’t want to, they don’t want to. That’s their free choice.

  12. TFS

    Evidence for what? The simple question is.. Should the Scots take control of Scottish governance?

    What evidence was demanded for all the other countries who freed themselves from Empire? What evidence did Americans need to put on the table to argue they should make their own decisions? India? All the others? To whom or what would this evidence you want be presented? The electorate? Westminster? The UN? The EU?

  13. TFS, I think it’s rather naive to expect a single source of evidence. Everybody will have their own.

    What I’d like to see, though, would be a definitive statement on what will actually be being voted on: i.e., what the consequences of a yes vote would be. What would Scotland’s relationship with England and Wales be? Like Canada’s with Britain? Like Denmark’s with Germany? In or out of the Commonwealth? Most importantly, which, if any, parts of the “former United Kingdom” would continue to be members of the EU? NATO?

    There are some practical matters like the currency used in an independent Scotland and the way in which the border and travel across it is managed but I’d imagine that after some transition period that would be a matter for negotiation between the two governments rather than part of the terms of the vote.

    I think the suggestion that an independent Scotland would not finish up as an EU member even if it had to join separately (rather than just continue its existing membership) is rather unlikely. However, some clarity is needed – knowing Scotland would not be in the EU is about the only thing that would make me think twice about voting yes.

  14. Fred, I think your regularly suggesting Scottish nationalism is the equivalent to British fascism doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, no matter how many times you say it. Scots naturally tend towards egalitarianism these days much more than do the English – I think the English were the same during the immediate post-war period, but were tempted away from the welfare state consensus by Thatcherism/Reaganism propaganda in the eighties.

    Mike, what you’re saying is that since England will suffer under neoliberalism, Scotland ought to as well? Isn’t that a version of race-to-the-bottom competition that we are generally all opposed to here?

    It seems to me that Scotland escaping London’s orbit is a very good thing. However, my great worry is that it will go the same way as voting reform – state propaganda will be significantly better reflected in the MSM, and the people will vote ‘no’ directly against their own interests.

  15. TFS

    “Where is THE WEBSITE, where people are presented with the EVIDENCE that will allow them to make an informed choice”?

    Like you, I wish there were such a thing but each broadcaster, newspaper and blog chooses its side and cherry picks that information which supports its point of view; ’twas always the way.

    The most significant article I’ve seen recently – which is informative and appears to be balanced – is the following:

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/london-calling-the-shots.21228380?utm_source=headlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=email%2Balert

    Unfortunately a Google search to look for other news outlets giving its findings indicated that the majority reporting on it only concentrated on the one negative aspect; the author’s conclusion that monetary union would be undesirable.

    They even cherry pick from articles/papers that are pro-indepence!

  16. “Your fellow Scotsman(?) George Galloway is very anti-Independence. I disagree with him. I think it’s time Scotland stop being raped by England.”

    Scotland never has been raped by England, both the people of Scotland and the people of England have been raped by the wealthy elite. While the Highland Clearances were taking place to make wealthy Scottish land owners even wealthier the average man in England was working 16 hours a day six days a week and dying before he was forty to make wealthy mill owners even wealthier their land having already been cleared.

    The Scots made a fortune from tobacco and slavery after the union and the rich Scottish land owners were given estates in Ireland, yes the Scots raped the Irish.

    As the wealthy Scots raped and plundered the Scottish people they just blamed the English for their fate.

    Nothing much has changed.

  17. Flaming June

    5 Jun, 2013 - 12:50 pm

    O/T

    Agent Cameron, nicely tanned, was taking PMQs just now. Quite a rarity to see him at his box.

    A question was asked about sentencing of paedophiles. It referred to a West Country judge giving a 2 year suspended sentence to the artist Ovenden. Cameron fielded it.

    1222: Moving on through questions about carbon capture and storage and sex offences against children and prison sentences for paedophiles……..
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22779587

    Graham Ovenden sex crimes: Artist gets suspended jail term
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-22763701#

    Judge Graham Cottle – Exeter CC
    http://ukpaedos-exposed.com/lenient-judges/judge-graham-cottle-exeter-cc/

    ~~~

    Yesterday we also heard that two members of HM Forces have been given anonymity for a sexual offence against an Afghan child and racial abuse of an Afghan adult. Why? There is previous history of anonymity being granted by Judge Advocates to the military as this article relates.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/two-british-soldiers-admit-sexual-and-racial-abuse-of-afghan-citizens-8643913.html

    Justice? What justice?

  18. MajorBloodnok

    5 Jun, 2013 - 12:58 pm

    The way Labour is going there could be the interesting scenario of the Tories and Labour getting together after the next GE to keep UKIP out – and also because there won’t be any Lib-Dems left for Cameron to rely on. Sure the Tories will lose a few of their nutters to UKIP but then they won’t be in power – but PM Cameron and Deputy PM Miliband will. I know it sounds far fetched but there is incredible convergence there.

    The problem for us in Scotland is that it creates so much uncertainty for us. Which flavour of right wing government that we didn’t want will be in power at Westminster? Will the RUK remain in the EU? Will it retain Trident? Will it suffer a catestrophic currency crash when Scottish oil no longer underpins the UK economy? Will it retain any A level ratings at all? Will Scotland even want to retain Sterling as it continues to devalue (nothing wrong with the Euro at all)? Will the possibility of David MacAlistair becoming the next Chancellor of Germany be a good thing for Scotland? Will the UK still be able to ‘punch above its weight’ seeing as they are so keen on punching people? Will the US and others want to invest in the RUK when it’s not in the EU and Scotland is?

    So much uncertainty pertains to staying in the Union. But then that’s the future for you – it is uncertain whatever happens. By the way, there is plenty of reliable information out there on the consequences of Scottish independence (such as can be known) if you get off your arse and look for it. Any adult complaining that there are ‘no answers’ is clearly a fool or a knave.

  19. “Fred, I think your regularly suggesting Scottish nationalism is the equivalent to British fascism doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, no matter how many times you say it. Scots naturally tend towards egalitarianism these days much more than do the English”

    Then why won’t Salmond amend the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 to make it illegal for Scottish councils to evict for bedroom tax arrears?

  20. Ed Davies
    “What I’d like to see, though, would be a definitive statement on what will actually be being voted on: i.e., what the consequences of a yes vote would be. What would Scotland’s relationship with England and Wales be? Like Canada’s with Britain? Like Denmark’s with Germany? In or out of the Commonwealth? Most importantly, which, if any, parts of the “former United Kingdom” would continue to be members of the EU? NATO?”

    Scots are voting on this: Should we, the Scots make our own democratic choices ourselves?

    What would our relationship be with England/Wales? Ask the English and Welsh. Would you like a guarantee that the answer will hold true for eternity or perhaps would you prefer it to be determined by the will of the people for the rest of time?
    In or out of the Commonwealth? Would that too be binding or perhaps change according to the will of the Scots and other Nations within the Commonwealth.

    What year did Rwanda cease to exist as a colony? Were they required carve in stone their view of the Commonwealth? Strange that. Rwanda was not part of the British Empire. Go take a look at Rwanda’s status with the Commonwealth. Oh look! Rwanda decided to apply for membership. Isn’t that weird! A democratic nation making decisions. All by itself. Over time.

    The old boring boring EU issue. Have you noticed that Scots have EU citizenship like the rest of the British people? What legal mechanism would be employed to remove that? We’d need another distinct referendum to ask if we want to leave the EU wouldn’t we? Ohh… Scotland by leaving the UK would be leaving the EU? Why? Cos maybe the UK wouldn’t exist? Fine. If the UK dissolution means no more EU membership or any of the nations? Maybe this EU referendum being waved about down in Westminster is a wee bit of a reeking fish? Do keep up. This has been gone over a hundred millions times for the past 18 months. It’s not difficult. The media in Scotland rarely discusses anything else.

    NATO? What nation on this earth has in their Constitution that they will always be a member of NATO? Maybe, just maybe that might be a decision made by people. You know… in that thing called parliamentary elections. Most countries have those.

  21. @Fred

    12.23pm

    Your use of pronouns is interesting …

    “they” … “them” as in …

    “I am not entirely sure that independence for Scotland is the answer to anything. However I do entirely accept that if the majority want it, then so be it.”

    “That’s the point, they don’t, they are getting it foisted on them by a bunch of flag waving fanatics asking us to believe the wankers at Holirood are somehow different to the wankers at Westminster”.

    and “our” as in

    “They can waste a billion pounds on tramways nobody want while they close our libraries”.

    Are you a non-Scot living north of Edinburgh or have your pronouns just got mixed up?

  22. MajorBloodnok

    5 Jun, 2013 - 1:42 pm

    Fred – here’s a quesiton for you.

    Why should Holyrood have to legislate to counter laws made in Westminster pertaining to UK reserved matters such as welfare and benefits?

    Surely an independent parliament with responsibilty for all income, outgoings and legislation without intereference from Westminster would be far better placed to respond to the needs of the Scottish people than the current arrangement?

    Oh and the trams were the brainchild of Labour – and an attempt to pass the parcel-bomb to the SNP administration when it came in, not to mention the legancy of PFI and other stupidities. Finally, the jingoist flag-wavers constantly referring to past imperial glories and the scourge of foreigners and other ‘undesirables’ aren’t in Holyrood – those are the Westminster guys and their acolytes you are thinking of.

  23. Indigo @ Fred:
    Are you a non-Scot living north of Edinburgh or have your pronouns just got mixed up?

    My guess is that he once met an overweight Glaswegian drunk who was visiting Basildon and took this as the type for the nation. Said OGD may have hit him, adding to the rancour. If so, way to go, OGD.

  24. Leaving aside the fact that I’m a natural Unionist (that is I think that peoples living under a severe geographical constraint – Sri Lanka, the Balkans, the British Isles, etc. – should accept what is inevitable and live with each other in peace and decency) I’m afraid that I see Craig’s argument as a non sequitur.

    Certainly we have little or no choice come election time and the candidates we are asked to vote for are all ‘yes’-men preselected by their respective party machines. But how is separatism going to help that? I was rather impressed by George Galloway on R.T. the other day when he predicted a “race to the bottom” following separation. That sounds like a plausible scenario to me and it is also an incredibly depressing one. Just when you thought things couldn’t get worse …

    I don’t want to be too pessimistic, but there are no bright, sunlit uplands waiting for us whatever we do. Easily available, highly concentrated energy in the form of fossil fuel is running out, our model of economic “success” is totally bonkers and unsustainable and we spend our time clutching at straws: The E.U. will save us … leaving the E.U. will save us … separatism will do the trick … anything to divert us from cold, dispassionate analysis of strengths, weaknesses and options.

    There is also something ironic in Craig’s title for an article which bemoans the electorate’s lack of choice.

  25. Fred. Personally, I was talking of the modern era.

  26. Fred, thanks:

    Then why won’t Salmond amend the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001 to make it illegal for Scottish councils to evict for bedroom tax arrears?

    Well, what I said was, “Scots naturally tend towards egalitarianism these days much more than do the English”, and I stand by it. I didn’t say “every single Scot is a socialist”. As to why Salmond does what he does on every issue, I don’t know, since I am not him. It’s worth bearing in mind that, when considering how to introduce progressive legislation in the current political environment — where the centre point is quite right-wing — one is not going to get a win on everything. Equally, one should not oppose Scottish Independence just because one does not like Salmond – if you are of the view that he has been captured by the neoliberals on certain issues, it does not make Independence wrong in itself.

    The purpose of my above phrase was, essentially, to say that the centre of Scottish politics has the capacity to be left of the English centre. I think Scotland, for example, would not have invaded Iraq. Independence would permit them the ability to reflect what people in Scotland think (though, I should make it clear, I don’t think it is a magic democratic wand, and there would be still many hurdles to jump before Scotland may call itself a democracy in the genuine meaning of the word).

  27. I don’t want to be too pessimistic, but there are no bright, sunlit uplands waiting for us whatever we do. Easily available, highly concentrated energy in the form of fossil fuel is running out, our model of economic “success” is totally bonkers and unsustainable and we spend our time clutching at straws: The E.U. will save us … leaving the E.U. will save us … separatism will do the trick … anything to divert us from cold, dispassionate analysis of strengths, weaknesses and options.

    But all that applies -in spades- to the UK as a whole. If UK plc can’t escape bankruptcy, and I see no sign that it can, ‘let’s take to the lifeboats’ becomes the logical course of action.

  28. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jun, 2013 - 2:58 pm

    Mark @ 2:38

    Did you see they’ve set up a ‘no fly’ zone around the Conference? They tried their best to keep under cover, but word travels.

  29. Craig Evans

    5 Jun, 2013 - 2:59 pm

    An excellent piece Craig; if Scotland Votes NO in 2014, the Westminster Gov. and unionist parties will strip hollyrood bare of powers and we will live to regret it.

    It’s not about oil or other economic issues; it’s about self-determination with a government elected by Scots for Scots and answerable to the Scots

  30. @Roddy MacDonald 11.41 PM re Your Comment “Left or Right have long been an unsuitable description of the 2 variations of the bought and paid for Neoliberal consensus”. Certainly I agree that left or right don’t make much sense anymore as a description of political issues. But I would disagree that we have had neoliberal politics here or elsewhere; instead what we have had is a mix of muddle-by, cronyism and neocon politics.

    Neoliberalism surely believes in free markets where competition makes sense. But we haven’t had that; what we have had instead is crony capitalism that picks the winners from the well-connected and then awards them with huge subsidies, favours and government funded bailouts.

    Neoliberals do believe in free trade, but they also believe in fair trade – and we haven’t had that either. Adam Smith and his confreres were not averse to countervailing duties with countries who, themselves, did not practice free trade. It’s our Neocons who have adopted this foolish policy of globalisation, without countervailing duties, even where the playing field is uneven.

    And then there are all these Neocon foreign wars that are so profitable for our security/intelligence apparatus and their private friends and former colleagues. But since Adam Smith opposed the UK’s role in the American Revolution as costing the UK more than it was worth, it is hardly likely that true liberal’s would adopt the neocon war mongering policies in vogue today. Like an Empire, they may enrich some, but overall they cost more than they are worth.

    Then there is a little thing called the rule of law which we seem to have forgotten about where establishment interests are involved. This is surely the cornerstone of Neoliberalism. Yet, there is my own case and many others, not to mention the Savile cover-up, where our security / intelligence apparatus are being used illegally as a secret police. Spies and Agents Provocateurs, once despised in the UK, are now seen as true patriots – what’s gone wrong with us. The pre-requisites for democracy are elections, a free press/freedom of speech, and rule of law. Without rule of law, the country cannot be a democracy, and certainly not a Neoliberal one.

    The London establishment have crucified Britain through their greed and just plain incompetence. They and their institutions have lost the right to have any respect from the public whose economic future they have now mortgaged for generations to come. Scotland now has a change, perhaps a last chance, to remedy this and get away from them.

  31. “Are you a non-Scot living north of Edinburgh or have your pronouns just got mixed up?”

    There’s nothing wrong with my pronouns mate so start concentrating on what I say not where I live.

    Either that or start asking Craig where he was born and where he lives.

  32. “What evidence was demanded for all the other countries who freed themselves from Empire? What evidence did Americans need to put on the table to argue they should make their own decisions? India? All the others? To whom or what would this evidence you want be presented? The electorate? Westminster? The UN? The EU?”

    I think your analogies are a bit strained, Scotland isn’t ruled by Britain, they are a part of Britain, they have plenty of say at Westminster.

    Scotland leaving Britain would be more like Texas leaving the United States.

  33. O/T

    I am not shocked easily, but this kind of brutality left me aghast;

    As the woman continues severing the victim’s head with a machete, you can hear an unidentified man refer to her as “La Guera Loca” (the crazy blond), another man says “This is what happens to those who help the Zetas”.

    After the woman finishes the decapitation and briefly poses with the head as a trophy, others begin to dismember the victim’s body and skin the face and skull.

    The above is to be found here, must warn you; Do not watch the videos..

    What the fuck is going on in Mexico? The fact that none of the corporate media are paying any attention to the turf war that is raging across that country in the cartels war for gaining more territory .

    La Guera Loca or La Wera Loka Herself since has been captured tortured and decapitated.

  34. “The purpose of my above phrase was, essentially, to say that the centre of Scottish politics has the capacity to be left of the English centre. I think Scotland, for example, would not have invaded Iraq. Independence would permit them the ability to reflect what people in Scotland think (though, I should make it clear, I don’t think it is a magic democratic wand, and there would be still many hurdles to jump before Scotland may call itself a democracy in the genuine meaning of the word).”

    But those are certainly not the impressions I get, although Scots tend to be anti Conservative with good reason I can assure you that there are plenty who are right wing.

    I was talking to people in Scotland and posting to Scottish forums at the time we invaded Iraq and I would think that if a referendum had been taken at the time the majority would have been in favour. Scotland was rife with racist comments about towel heads and camel jockeys. Let’s not forget that both the leader of the Labour party and the leader of the Conservative party who supported the invasion were Scots, one from Glasgow and the other from Edinburgh.

    Plus I find the left wing as frightening as the right wing, in particular the Scottish Governments decision to appoint a “Government Guardian” to every child in Scotland, like the parents can’t be trusted with their own children but the government can.

  35. @Fred

    First of all, I’m not your mate. Please don’t address me as such.

    “… start concentrating on what I say not where I live”.

    A declared interest in the outcome of the Scottish referendum (which you must have if you live there) rather than just an opinion from one who would remain unaffected would give your comments a certain validity no matter whether others disagreed or not. I find it strange that you might wish to hide this.

    Finally, where Craig was born is a matter of public record … and he has never made any secret of where he lives now.

  36. “First of all, I’m not your mate.”

    Well you got something right at last sunshine.

    So if you want to talk about the independence debate talk away, if you’re going to start talking about me expect me to start flaming.

  37. 2:58 Ben Yes, Komodo’s barrage balloons might have prevented low level Hi-cam microdrone surveillance.

    With special thanks to the Green Bay, Wisconsin homebrewers who have provided an effective solution to counter these spies in the sky.

    http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

  38. Fred, you imply that Blair and Cameron are representative of “Scots”, and yet you say “the people of Scotland and … England have been raped by the wealthy elite”. However Blair and Cameron are that wealthy elite, and so are hardly a good example of Scottish opinion generally!

    Equally, you found some Scots that were racist – I don’t think however they are representative of Scottish opinion. Do you really think Scotland is a racist country?

    We’ll have to disagree about whether Scots were in favour of the war. I don’t have any sources to hand, but when I read Scottish media (as corporate as they still are) over the last few years, there is still a sense of egalitarianism that is missing even from London “liberal” media – Guardian et al.

    This is interesting, on the topic of the war. I wonder whether this has a chance?

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/change-to-scots-law-could-put-tony-blair-on-trial-over-invasion-of-iraq-1-2514633

    (Aside: I agree with Indigo broadly, but I concur also that it is unhelpful in debate to refer to someone as “friend” or “mate” if it is meant cynically. Let’s fight clean, please).

  39. I would love to have your optimism Craig but seem to remember you were very keen on the LibDems before the last election and look how that turned out. I have a horrible feeling that power corrupts people and expect no less than whoever runs Scotland should it go for independence will take the same road.

  40. “Fred, you imply that Blair and Cameron are representatives of “Scots”, and yet you say “the people of Scotland and … England have been raped by the wealthy elite”. You can’t have it both ways.”

    Yes I can, the two are not contradictory.

    BTW it was Ian Duncan Smith I was referring to not Cameron.

  41. @Fred

    At the risk of repeating myself …

    If you’re not Scots and don’t live in Scotland although you may have an opinion on Independence it’s not worth a great deal. But …

    if you do live in Scotland you have, by definition, an interest in it’s future and your opinion – whatever it may be – is a valid one.

    This is not a comment about you personally, it’s a comment about where you live and if you can’t see that …

  42. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    5 Jun, 2013 - 4:34 pm

    Mark @ 4:08

    Too funny. Lockheed’s Skunk works never imagined technology could be used in such a treasonous manner.

  43. @Indigo

    It affects everyone in the UK as where they live, everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone is entitled to speak it.

    So stick to the subject not the people discussing it.

  44. @ Fred.
    It affects everyone in Europe if the UK leaves. Should folk in France have a say in wether thr UK leaves or not?

  45. @Fred

    Those who don’t live in Scotland are perfectly entitled to an opinion and to voice same – I never intimated differently – but it’s worth zilch because they haven’t got a vote.

  46. BrianFujisan

    5 Jun, 2013 - 6:33 pm

    Great piece Craig…hope your feeling ok today

    Fred
    i have never – i’m quite sure – met a right wing Scot… I’m not claiming there are none, but The racism you refer to, is most certainly the result of a Biased, propagandist MSM. Its very much the same re, the Iraq, Libya, Syrian wars
    And dont ever forget that the MsM are doing it all VERY deliberately – just as was instantly the case with the Murder of Lee Rigby, and look what happened after that propaganda Bullshit by both The MsM, politicians – with evil blair popping up to claim prize yet again with the worst load of vile rantings

    Tony Blair –
    “there is a problem within Islam, “We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/03/tony-blair-islam-woolwich-attack_n_3379251.html

    So fucking causal about it Swine, and i see he is now an expert in all religions.

    Jon

    It seems to me that Scotland escaping London’s orbit is a very good thing. However, my great worry is that it will go the same way as voting reform – state propaganda will be significantly better reflected in the MSM, and the people will vote ‘no’ directly against their own interests.

    The chilling thing about your paragraph here, is how true it is

  47. “It affects everyone in Europe if the UK leaves. Should folk in France have a say in wether thr UK leaves or not?”

    Of course they should, everyone in France has a right to an opinion and everyone in France has a right to speak it.

  48. “Where is THE WEBSITE, where people are presented with the EVIDENCE that will allow them to make an informed choice?”

    Q: Where can you find a website that explains why running your own country is something best left to someone else, somewhere else?

    A: Nowhere. Erewhon. Scotland.

  49. “there is a problem within Islam, “We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”

    That little wanker, set the wheels in motion for the current situation that we find ourselves in. The hate towards Muslims has become so matter of course and routine, that it is no longer challenged or checked.

    The fuckwits busy promoting the “crusades/cultural clash/WoT” are relentless in their promotion of hatred against all things Muslim. It is fucking pitiful, to find such an obtuse, obscene and hateful discourse, that is taking place all in the name of “liberalism”, in short these tosspots have all come to be “good Germans of the third fourth Reich” (no offence to Ingo). Shame on them all, how will these bastards’ excuse themselves, upon the conclusion of the fashionable hate period?

  50. Flaming June

    5 Jun, 2013 - 7:09 pm

    If the change in Scots law comes about,then good for Margo McDonald and the Scots people.

    Jon put the link up earlier.

    http://www.scotsman.com/news/change-to-scots-law-could-put-tony-blair-on-trial-over-invasion-of-iraq-1-2514633

    Part 2 of The Iraq War tonight is on BBC2 9pm

    After the Fall

    Episode 2 of 3 Duration: 1 hour

    In After the Fall, part two of this three-part series, key insiders describe the chaotic aftermath of the defeat of Saddam Hussein. Dick Cheney and Colin Powell come to blows over America’s role as occupying power. General David Petraeus recalls the disastrous decision to disband the Iraqi army. The representative of Grand Ayatollah Sistani – Iraq’s most senior Shia cleric – tells how Sistani forced the Americans into agreeing to elections in Iraq. One of the greatest challenges came from Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi army. America and the new Iraqi government were able to defeat Sadr militarily, but it set the stage for sectarian war.

    The producers in charge of the series were Norma Percy, Brian Lapping and Paul Mitchell, the team at Brook Lapping Productions who were behind the multi-award-winning documentaries Iran & the West, Putin, Russia and the West, The Death of Yugoslavia etc.

    ~~~

    Other news

    Petraeus, the media’s favourite general is joining the private equity outfit KKR.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on-leadership/wp/2013/05/30/what-david-petraeus-has-to-offer-kkr/

    WSWS: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/06/05/petr-m04.html

  51. Agree Craig.Looking at what the 2 main parties has to offer in the way of leadership does tend to leave one leaning toward the whisky bottle. Balls is one of those horrible career excrement of labour types that would do anything to get into power. Not unlike his boss or the other side of the chamber however.
    I hope that we do vote for full Independence,but there are millions more with an opinion too. Since there has yet to be any positive reasons given for staying I’m confident that it will be a Yes ! Isn’t it odd that the MSM constantly print and preach threats of the pain and pestilence to come should heaven forbid, the Scots say Yes ?? A year ago I laid out 7 concurrent issues of the Scotsman with a headline knocking Salmond and Independence.The Fascists Fred ,are the ones in control of the media and feeding Scotland pro Union propaganda. You are obviously swallowing it all.

  52. “Q: Where can you find a website that explains why running your own country is something best left to someone else, somewhere else? ”

    Doesn’t matter how many times you debunk the Nationalist myths they just keep repeating them.

    Scotland have their own parliament, laws passed in Scotland affecting the Scots are voted on by Scottish MPs and only Scottish MPs.

    Laws passed in England affecting the English are also voted on by Scottish MPs.

    Apart from anything else even if Scotland were to be independent it would still be run by Edinburgh which is practically English anyway. The parts of Scotland which are actually ethnically different to England and are, incidentally, a lot closer to that oil Salmond is desperate to get his hands on than Edinburgh still won’t get a look in.

  53. PFI started up ‘under’ the Tories (John Major), not ‘under’ New Labour, although it was expanded ‘under’ them.

    That’s if we want to use language which keeps to the idiotic parliamentary-democratic fairy story that a ‘government of politicians’ decides stuff at the top.

    Of course they effing don’t.

    Like yeah, right. Tony Blair will be put on trial in Scotland, and a Scottish government will introduce sanctions against Israel and the United States etc. etc. etc. The Zionist consulate in Glasgow will be shut down until Arab land is returned, refugees allowed back, and reparations paid. Any politician or civil servant who takes a backhander will get his or her collar felt. Even the fiddles around the building of the Scottish Parliament will be exposed. The guilty people will be hunted down, prosecuted, and jailed. A further change in Scots law will ensure that anyone who tries to use freemasonic membership in the furtherance of a crime (such as corruption) will be handed an extra-long spell in Bar-L. Whether lodge meetings will be allowed to be held inside, or command structures recognised, as happened in the ‘H’ blocks in Northern Ireland, will be a hot topic of debate.

    Especially in the Scotsman

    FFS wake up!

    It’s just convenient for nationalism in Scotland to be marketed as ‘left-wing’ for a while, that’s all.

    Don’t trust politicians, ever. Fuck parliamentary democracy. Fuck all nations.

  54. Maybe everyone here already knows this, but just in case someone doesn’t: Alex Salmond was once the chief oil economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland.

  55. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    5 Jun, 2013 - 8:55 pm

    This is a most interesting and impassioned discussion. I have a question which might be answered by any constitutionalists amoungst you.

    An independent Scotland will entail the creation of legal Scottish nationality, will it not? How will that be defined? By lex sanguinis or by lex solis? Or by both? Or by some sui generis law? Cf in this connection Irish or Israeli nationality.

    The question is of some practical significance, inter alia as far as the possibility of standing for election to the Westminster Parliament is concerned: as you know, Westminster MPs have to have UK nationality (which, in the event of a future independent Scotland would mean, in practice, being English, Welsh or Northern Irish.

    One must assume that future Scots nationals (however defined) will be ineligible – unless of course they have dual UK and Scots nationality. In which event, so much for Scottish independence…

    ——-

    I must say that although not usually agreeing with Fred I do have a great deal of sympathy for his views on this matter. I also agree with those who view as illusionary the idea that Scottish politicians, and even the greater Scottish public, are somehow a different and more upright species than their English counterparts.

    Finally, as far for the future state of Scitland, it will be faced with exactly the same problems as occasion so much ire on the blog when it comes to the current UK as a whole, ie, unlimited demand for public services, social infrastructure and so on on the one hand and finite public financial ressources on the other. To think otherwise is to live in cloud cuckoo land.

  56. “Doesn’t matter how many times you debunk the Nationalist myths they just keep repeating them.”

    Select a myth, and amuse us all with your debunking of it.

  57. “Maybe everyone here already knows this, but just in case someone doesn’t: Alex Salmond was once the chief oil economist at the Royal Bank of Scotland.”

    Or that the brother of Kenny MacAskill, Scotland’s Justice Secretary, is representative for Repsol, a Spanish oil company with extensive interests in Lybia.

  58. Well, it’s a matter for Scots to decide, meaning Craig and I are out of the picture, but personally I would welcome independence as then both Scotland and England will move to the right. I would doubly welcome independence as we would not have to hear from Scots and Craig about a fixed ballot and media bias for the rest of eternity.

    Also, I support the Shetland Islands’ claim to most of Scotland’s oil, to free the Islanders from the repressive imperialist Scottish yoke. :-)

    Cheerio Scotland!

  59. Flaming June

    5 Jun, 2013 - 9:47 pm

    O/T Just saw this. Some justice at last for these people after 60 years. Disgraceful. ‘The blood never dried’.

    Breaking news British government to make Mau Mau apology

    Mau Mau massacre papers revealed
    Kenyans win torture ruling in UK

    The government is expected to apologise to those tortured during the Mau Mau uprising in Kenya, the BBC understands.

    Compensation for the victims is also expected to be announced.

    UK-based law firm Leigh Day is representing more than 5,000 Kenyan men and women who say they were tortured or otherwise mistreated by the British administration in the 1950s.

  60. Fred
    Will you be voting in the referendum then ?

  61. H

    As I am sure you know, lex sanguinis is not applicable in the EU. Germany was forced, quite rightly, to change its immigration laws as racist. I suspect that Scotland’s nationality law will be remarkably similar to that of the UK. The variation in nationality laws between EU states is actually not that wide.

  62. The British empire is finished therefore the union between Scotland and England is finished.It’s as straightforward as that.
    Vote Yes 2014.

  63. “Fuck all nations.” N_

    Reminds me of the imperative version of Bill Bragg, as in,

    “I’ve had relaytions
    With gerls from many naytions…”

    And then, in not dissimilar vein, one has Tony, with his apetising,

    “Its The Only Thing My Wife and I Know, That Works Brilliantly Against Thrush.”

    Ah, this blog is an excellent political blog, but also at times is joyously and affectionately insane!

    The love – it must be love – b/w Habbabkuk (no doubt a culinary sibling of Captain Kebabhook and Major Yakultbook?) and April Showers/Flaming June (even the names are suggestive of a porn movie) is most touching.

    In the spirit, then, of Ogden Nash, goodnight, all. Sleep tight. Don’t forget to eat your yoghurt and dream of Humphrey Boggart.

  64. @Fred

    “Scotland leaving Britain would be more like Texas leaving the United States.”

    OK. Fine. The election data. It’s all there if you care to look and see how much *say* Scotland has in governance. It’s been explained often enough. If you haven’t seen the data then any wise person would advise hauding yer wheesht tae ye hiv.

    On to the Texas thing. Let’s pretend we accept your idea of Scotland being like Texas. What evidence is it you would require to justify Scotland, or Texas leaving the Union? Would that be… hmmmm let’s see… a democratic Yes vote? I thought so. That’s right. A democratic vote. Until we have that vote how else will you know what Scots want? They did after all elect the SNP to govern… and SNP party that had in it’s manifesto…. now why would Scots vote for a party promising policies the Scots don’t want? They voted for a party promising a referendum. That party won. That party is holding the referendum, asking the Scots if they would prefer Independence. But you know how the Scots will vote in 2014? That’ a fine shiny Tardis you’ve got there, isn’t it! Can you take me to 2024 please? That’s when I retire and I’d like my bus pass early.
    Thanks.

  65. (Minor interesting aside for old readers: the latest Al-Hilli thread has recently gone through the 15K barrier).

  66. @Helen

    Your analogy about America getting independence still sucks as the descendants of the few Americans we didn’t kill are mostly living on reservations, they didn’t even get the right to vote till 1965.

    People in Scotland get the same representation in Westminster as any other geographical region, constituencies are based on head of population. That’s how a democracy works. Plus they get their own parliament at enormous expense.

    I don’t need a crystal ball because nice people do surveys and ask people how they would vote, like the one just done by the University of Edinburgh which showed 60% of 14 to 17 year olds would vote against compared to 21% for.

  67. Scott Johnson

    6 Jun, 2013 - 12:37 am

    What is the real support for independence now?

    Is there any way the pro-independence blogs joined forces to do a reliable poll themselves without involving any of the polling companies?

    It is unbelieavable that 70% don’t support independence or don’t care, given that that they will be shot by either a blue or red or purple gun in the event of a no vote.

  68. “Is there any way the pro-independence blogs joined forces to do a reliable poll themselves without involving any of the polling companies?”

    The whole idea of using polling companies is that they are independent and unbiased therefore the result is reliable.

    I’m sure your pro independence blogs could take a poll and make it say just what they wanted it to say but nobody would take any notice of it.

    Actually it surprised me how many young people have the sense to see through Salmonds propaganda, think it surprised him too. Wonder if he will still go ahead with letting 16 year olds vote now it seems they aren’t as stupid as he thought they were.

  69. I would agree to Scottish independence if Scotland voted to work towards a transitional RBE economic model.

    Else Scotland will remain standing, status in quo complete with the usual fiat philosophy of selfishness, greed and increasing fiscal divide between the haves and the have nots.

    OK that said let’s get to the ‘spondulie’ and consider the bread before it goes stale.

    If Scotland joined the Euro, then hey-! fiscal decisions are taken away from Scotland and Scotland would face the same cock-up’s, constraints in ensuring economic stability as other small euro area Member States (Greece?).

    A new Scottish currency will ensure Scotland is screwed higher transaction costs and a Scottish flight to hold assets in an established currency. Of course Scotland could print it’s own money out of thin air. (même vieux même vieux =fiat collapse).

    Scotland could use sterling with or without formal agreement. In both recipes England would shaft/fleece a Scotland without control and at severe financial risk.

    Thus the fiscal or rather the monetary route is a blind alley, a stumbling block for the wary Jock Tamson’s bairns. Advice you won’t see in the 16yrs+ referendum teacher packs

  70. The Al Hilli thread has become almost a blog-within-a-blog. However, its continuing active existence does remind one that that crime has yet to be solved and that unlike, say, the murders of Alexander Litvinenko and Gareth Williams, it seems to have been put by the MSM on the most posterior of back-burners. No investigative journalists appears to be pursuing the case – or at least, if they are, they are not reporting on it. Might it be that, in the context of the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and others across the Middle East over the past 10 years in various configurations of conflict, pursuing information relating to the deaths of a few more “wogs”/”ragheads”/”sand-niggers”, etc. is deemed by the MSM to be of strictly limited public interest? In that context, we ought to be grateful to the bloggers who continue to post on that particular thread for at the very least, keeping the case in the public eye.

  71. Flaming June

    6 Jun, 2013 - 8:14 am

    The coroner in the Litvinenko inquest that never was has asked for a public inquiry. Some long grass is required into which the ball can be kicked.

    Coroner requests public inquiry into Litvinenko death
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22786081

  72. Ed Miliband to pledge Labour limit on spending in welfare crackdown

    Leader would impose budget cap and use cuts to child benefit to push parents back into work

    A cap would be imposed on parts of the welfare budget by a future Labour Government to keep a lid on public spending, Ed Miliband will announce today. Housing benefit and payments to the sick and disabled would be covered by the ceiling, and so rates could be cut if total spending on them increased. But the state pension would not be included in Labour’s cap.

    Another tough guy busy bashing the shit out of the poor, and showing how he can help the rich to keep paying less taxes, keep the Trident, and help the banksters. Boy how spoilt for choice are we in our selectoral demokracy?

  73. @Suhayl

    I agree our derogatory language is shameful, cheap, and pointless and is entirely demeaning only serving sinful aims.

    Rasicm in the context of immigratiin policy as Craig puts “as racist“.

    So to preserve a racial and cultural heritage in the sub-structure of human race is racist therefore wrong.

  74. Flaming June

    6 Jun, 2013 - 8:16 am

    There is very little comment on the burning down of the Islamic centre in Muswell Hill yesterday. Imagine if it was a synagogue or a building belonging to another religion.

  75. Oh dear, Suhayl, you’re at it again. In your rushed early morning effort at finding racism, you have overlooked the documentary “Alps Murders” scheduled for broadcast this evening on Channel 4, and articles about the Al Hilli case appearing in the Guardian, Express and Telegraph in recent days.

  76. Flaming June:

    There is very little comment on the burning down of the Islamic centre in Muswell Hill yesterday. Imagine if it was a synagogue or a building belonging to another religion.

    Suhayl Saadi:

    “wogs”/”ragheads”/”sand-niggers”, etc. is deemed by the MSM to be of strictly limited public interest

    This is the “new normal” (the heady days of Miranda aka Emily aka Tonykins aka bLiar), the daily rituals of two minutes hate are coming to fruition and no one wants to lose momentum. Thus the quiet and “reserved” approach of the Media.

    For certain there are those on this board and elsewhere, whom are rejoicing at the notion of the “Mozy” getting their arse kicked, and hoping come the Kristallnacht II these “Mozy scum” will be carted off to the concentration camps (economy is tanking and needs slave labour).

    Sickening, isn’t it?

  77. Well as a raging Nationalist, I wait for the day I can dig out my kilt, paint myself up with a bit of woad and sharpen the Claymore. Not that I would actually do anyone harm, but it will be a hell of a party !

  78. Hopefully we’ll get independence, not because I have anything against the English but at least we will be able to have a proper identity as a country which should benefit everyone in the current UK. There are already issues with English people thinking there in a different country when they are handed Scottish notes as change and regularly demand English notes, whenever a BBC presenter refers to the north of the country they are usually speaking about Newcastle or Liverpool, the English think the Scots are leeching off them and the Scots think London is leeching of Scotland. The last point helps the powers that be keep us all divided and bickering amongst ourselves just as the Edinburgh, Glasgow divide is used in the same manner (Glasgow’s the capital city because it’s the biggest, no Edinburgh is, no Perth is etc, etc , etc).

    When it comes to Alex Salmond and whether the SNP can lead the country it doesn’t matter, as soon as Independence is achieved there will then be Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrats, SNP all running on a new playing field and a new election will probably have to take place almost immediately so that the democratic process can appear to be working.

    The Queen will still be head of state because she isn’t going to let us be independent without keeping control so we will be able to join the commonwealth, if we ever have to leave.

    International finance will get involved and things could either go well or badly but at least people would only have to march on Holyrood to throw the a**holes out, which would be far more likely than them ever marching down to London.

  79. @MJones…well structured post. Don’t know about Er Maj and the rest of the parasites. I suppose if we can keep Air Miles Andy off the golf courses, I would be happy with that. Can Er Maj actually keep control ? Not if we are an independant country and we don’t want her, or that prat Charles and his horsy wife either. Personally I would prefer Harry. He would be far too busy getting hammered in Edinburgh pubs and chasing Uni students to do any real harm.

  80. @MJones

    You are coming out with all the rubbish that generates racial hatred of the English in Scotland. If Scotland is north why do they call the top of it Sutherland? Because it was south to the Vikings who named it. People round where I live call Edinburgh south, I have never heard an English person complain about it. Why do commentators talk about the Lowlands? They aren’t as low as Norfolk.

    Nobody has to accept Scottish bank notes, they are not legal tender. The reason on why some businesses in England don’t want to accept them is because people forge them then try to pass them on in England where people aren’t familiar with them, you can’t expect a shopkeeper in England to familiarise themselves with every Scottish bank note, there are so many different ones.

    http://www.bexhillobserver.net/news/bexhill-news/beware-of-fake-20-scottish-banknotes-1-4695519

    I once asked a barmaid in Leeds if she accepted Scottish notes, “all except Clydesdale” she replied “Clydesdale charge my bank to exchange them back to sterling”

    I see the Nationalist propaganda machine is at it again with the headline “Scottish independence: Scotland and UK could be ‘closest of allies'”

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22790613

    That isn’t going to happen, it won’t happen because so many Scots are being encouraged to hate the English and I have no doubt that should Scotland become independent it won’t be long before Salmond is giving the people of England reason to hate the Scots.

  81. Indigo

    5 Jun, 2013 – 11:08 am

    “The answer in Scotland has to lie with getting the media on board and somehow getting the message across. How that is achieved with BBC Scotland dominating the airwaves I just don’t know … wish I did.”

    Join the YES campaign the largest participative campaign ever in Scotland. This will eventually overcome the establishment controlled media. Don’t believe the polls, in the day’s before the 2007 elections to the Scottish Parliament the BBC issued a poll showing Labour winning by 14% the SNP ended up beating Labour. In 2011 the SNP thrashed Labour they won an overall majority in a system designed to stop that happening. The polls issued by the BBC and the remainder of the media showed Labour winning up untill a few weeks before the election.

    There are cracks apearing in the Unionist camp. read John Macallion’s article in Newsnetscotland.

    http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/7521-cracks-in-labour-support-for-better-together-are-widening

    http://www.yesscotland.net/

  82. Fred may find that this clarifies his thinking on Scottish banknotes…but clarifying his thinking would be a big ask IMO.

    http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php

    It’s not that the three Scots banks concerned don’t try to help easily-confused English shopkeepers:

    “…in Scotland three Banks – Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank and The Royal Bank of Scotland – are still allowed to issue banknotes.

    The Scottish banks issue notes in denominations of £5, £10, £20, £50 and £100. Only the Royal Bank of Scotland continues to issue a small volume of £1 notes. Information about the legal position with regard to Scottish banknotes can be obtained by selecting “Legal Position” from the menu on the left of your screen.

    To aid identification the Scottish banks have all agreed to issue notes of specific value in the same predominant colour. Thus £5 notes are blue, £10 notes are brown, £20 notes are maroon/purple, £50 notes are green and £100 notes are red.”

    And if you live north of Edinburgh, Fred, and voice the generalised slanders that you repeat incessantly here, it’s no vast surprise to me that you are loathed and shunned by decent Scots when you put your blethering neb oot the door. But not because you are English. Because you’re an [epithet deleted because this is a nice blog -K]

  83. Errrrmm Scottish banknotes are legal tender !

  84. O/T
    Scotland

    On a day when Hague/Kerry have shipped Shi’a troops from Baghdad, kitted them out in Hizbullah colours, and routed their darling AlQaida’s competitors FSA and the people of AlQusayr, we are talking about CIA-smoked Salmond.

    The manipulators of Muslim countries sitting in Jerusalem Washington and London need the stooge they need delivered by their mercenaries of choice. To tick all boxes the stooge will probably be a lady from the Muslim Brotherhood.

    It just goes to show that you tickle anybody you like to fanatasise about freedom, even seasoned diplomats and Syrian freedom fighters. Then you give them what suits the NWO masters.
    Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose, or whatever the equivalent is in your language.

  85. “And if you live north of Edinburgh, Fred, and voice the generalised slanders that you repeat incessantly here, it’s no vast surprise to me that you are loathed and shunned by decent Scots when you put your blethering neb oot the door. But not because you are English. Because you’re an [epithet deleted because this is a nice blog -K]”

    Oh I’m not loathed and shunned by the decent Scots, it’s only the racist bastards like you I have problems with.

    Try writing what you just wrote about a Pakistani and see where it gets you.

  86. The only folk i see posting racial hatred in the independence debate are Unionists like Fred.

  87. “Errrrmm Scottish banknotes are legal tender !”

    No they aren’t, I said they weren’t then Komodo posted a link proving they weren’t pretending it said something different.

    Look Scottish notes are not commonplace in England, shops out of tourist areas can go years without seeing one, there are three notes of each denomination from three banks and there are forgeries, it’s plain common sense that a shopkeeper wouldn’t accept one when he doesn’t have to.

    How come the Nationalists are using this to stir up racial hatred?

  88. “The only folk i see posting racial hatred in the independence debate are Unionists like Fred.”

    Why would a Unionist be wanting to stir up racial hatred?

  89. Fred

    The view I was trying to show was that Great Britain doesn’t really work as a country and it has nothing to do with racism or hatred. From a Scottish perspective I watch the BBC (BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation) and expect them to class Thurso or Aberdeen as the North of Britain because that is the north of Britain

    There has always been confusion as to what is being discussed at a national level as certain English people use the two terms Great Britain and England to mean the same thing and it seems only since devolution that they are being corrected on radio or television as there is now a clear legal difference.

    You talk about me sounding racist but all of these small discrepancies amount to the fact the English don’t want to recognise Scotland as a country which to someone who is Scottish is extremely insulting and demeaning.

    The English have only started identifying the St George cross as their national flag in the last 10 years maybe, they always use to use the Union Jack when I was growing up again not recognising that it wasn’t an English flag but the flag of England, Wales and Scotland combined.

    When you talk about the Scottish being encouraged to hate the English what you are actually discussing is the little things over the years that have happened in Scotland under rule from London such as the poll tax, trident, etc, take your pick, where it appears that and the English government treats Scotland as some kind of testing ground or backwater to be used and abused. The people of Scotland know that Charles the pub landlord or Peter the plumber has nothing to do with these decisions and hold nothing against them.

    It may be part of the Scottish culture to hate the English just as it is in England to hate the French or Germans but this is something else and nothing to do with independence. If anything independence would probably bring us closer together because we would see ourselves as two distinct countries, both speaking the same language, on the same island and the joke would be “ooh, remember when we used to rule you, ho, ho, ho” instead of “ooh your just a bunch of alcoholic blah, blah, blah”

  90. Keith Crosby

    6 Jun, 2013 - 11:23 am

    If I lived in Scotland I’d consider voting but at the moment it looks like the same Hobson’s choice of pin-striped Whitehall fascists versus kilted Edinburgh fascists.

    That said, why aren’t English inhabitants consulted on the constitutional status of their country? We are the only disenfranchised population in the UK.

  91. “When you talk about the Scottish being encouraged to hate the English what you are actually discussing is the little things over the years that have happened in Scotland under rule from London such as the poll tax, trident, etc, take your pick, where it appears that and the English government treats Scotland as some kind of testing ground or backwater to be used and abused. The people of Scotland know that Charles the pub landlord or Peter the plumber has nothing to do with these decisions and hold nothing against them.

    It may be part of the Scottish culture to hate the English just as it is in England to hate the French or Germans but this is something else and nothing to do with independence. If anything independence would probably bring us closer together because we would see ourselves as two distinct countries, both speaking the same language, on the same island and the joke would be “ooh, remember when we used to rule you, ho, ho, ho” instead of “ooh your just a bunch of alcoholic blah, blah, blah””

    No, you are wrong, there are actual violent racially motivated crimes committed by the Scots against the English purely because they are English. I never heard of violence being used against a Scot in England purely because they are Scottish, nor the French, nor the Germans. This is not friendly banter or the joking which goes on between all countries, this is racism and that is no joke.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1114567/Scars-girl-beaten-English-Scotland.html

  92. Did a big hairy highlander shag you on a trip to Scotland Fred?
    Where does all your bile and hatred come from?

  93. Oh I’m not loathed and shunned by the decent Scots, it’s only the racist bastards like you I have problems with.

    Try writing what you just wrote about a Pakistani and see where it gets you.

    LOL.

    My little splenetic friend, and no doubt confidant/e of Malcolm Rifkind, I know it is useless to try to alter your mindset, but, out of charity, let me try. I’m a racist bastard Englishman. Maybe more racist bastard English than you, who knows? I lived 30+ years in Scotland – north and south – and now live in racist bastard England. Both are fine by me. I experienced no repeat no racism in Scotland. Ever. Under any circumstances, including difficult pub scenes.
    The only fellow-racist bastard Englishmen who ever reported experiencing racism to me had obvious difficulty in adjusting to the idea that when in Rome you do not tell the Romans how they should behave, especially if you have the idea that the Romans are a bunch of fat pissheads and that you know better about everything. Some were obvious crawlers-up-the-arses-of-power, and that probably didn’t help.

    Re. Pakistanis (got something against them, have you? I note you reach instinctively for a group irrelevant to the discussion. Why?)…I would have no hesitation in writing what I wrote about a Pakistani or anyone else, who while enjoying the amenities of a country Her racist bastard Majesty’s Imperial and Royal Domains North of Oop North, publicly and systematically insults the inhabitants thereof.

  94. Of course the Independence supporting parties – the Scottish National Party – and others have pleasant surprises in store, pleasant in that they’ll ask the Scottish people how they should proceed once the Yes vote is won, on many matters and follow through with the people’s will expressed through further referendums. The transition period of a year or so will be a sort of Independence-lite (though still a damned sight better than no-jam today or tomororow devo-max) and everything from the economy/currency, NATO, the monarchy will be up for grabs or for the dustbin of history, each issue and battle will like the independence victory, have vested and elitist interests bewailing their loss of privileges, but each successive step will get easier as the hold-outs become weaker and fewer, as ever more join in building the new egalitarian industrial and economic powerhouse that is Scotland’s inevitable role once freed from draining its natural wealth and talents down the Westminster and City of London U-bend. My feeling is that of course there will in time be a Scottish currency, a Scot’s Pound, issued on the government’s good credit and inevitable publicly held reserves of a broad range of other currencies and stored wealth in appreciating mineral resources, government spending funded by debt-free issue and high street banking and building society lending being funded only by 100% reserves. With an active stock market to fund speculative and business inward investment, alongside a public sector that jump-starts growth.

    It might be a mistake by the SNP in not outlining their own policies for a post-independence Scotland, whilst the dead, old and discredited unionist parties of Labour, Tory and Liberal, spell out theirs clearly –it’s no change ever, everything exactly the same, unmanaged terminal decline for all but the fat-cat criminal oligarchy. Not being bold enough at this stage to fire the imagination as to just how better things can be once the shackles are loosed then discarded, might well be canny as it shows up the depressingly drab paucity of the status-quo compared with the Independence alternatives there for the taking.

  95. read…a country Her racist bastard Majesty’s Imperial and Royal Domains North of Oop North, publicly and systematically insults the inhabitants thereof.

    PS. York = Yorvik. Viking. If “Sutherland” bothers your little insular head, be very afraid of York.

  96. Flaming June

    6 Jun, 2013 - 12:11 pm

    Good one from Charlie Skelton on Bilderberg.

    Bilderberg 2013: welcome to 1984

    Relax: thanks to Goldman Sachs and other ‘donors’, this year’s conference will be cost-neutral for Hertfordshire – despite the construction of the Great Wall of Watford

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/05/bilderberg-2013-goldman-sachs-watford

    This is the fence.
    http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/6/5/1370440264750/Great-Wall-of-Watford-010.jpg

    ‘After 59 years of Bilderbgerg guests scuttling about in the shadows, ducking lenses and dodging the news, that’s the rationale we’re given? The same rationale, presumably, is behind the Great Wall of Watford, a concrete-and-wire security fence encircling the hotel. As ugly as it is unnecessary, it looks like the kind of thing you throw yourself against in a stalag before being machine-gunned from a watchtower. Appropriately fascistic, you might say, if you regard fascism as “the merger of corporate and government power”, as Mussolini put it.

    The same threat of “terrorism” was used to justify the no-pedestrian, no-stopping zones near the venue. The police laid out their logic: they had “no specific intelligence” regarding a terror threat. However, in recent incidents, such as Boston and Woolwich, there had been no intelligence prior to the attack. Therefore the lack of any threat of a terror attack fitted exactly the profile of a terror attack. The lack of a threat was a threat. Welcome to 1984.’

  97. “My little splenetic friend, and no doubt confidant/e of Malcolm Rifkind, I know it is useless to try to alter your mindset, but, out of charity, let me try. I’m a racist bastard Englishman.”

    A racist bastard is a racist bastard as where he was born, I make no distinctions.

  98. Flaming June

    6 Jun, 2013 - 12:15 pm

    The Israelis’ ‘Hour Glass’ Eilat>Gaza fence knocks the Bilderberg fence into a cocked hat.

    http://www.imagesofmythoughts.com/News/20120403-Project-Hour-Glass/22257588_mhB43V/1778190287_qVL92bd#!i=1778190287&k=qVL92bd

  99. “PS. York = Yorvik. Viking. If “Sutherland” bothers your little insular head, be very afraid of York.”

    Don’t bother me non, I was just using that to show how petty minded some of the Nationalist arguments are.

    “Commentators call Liverpool the North therefore the Union isn’t working”.

    Get real.

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