Work for the UN

by craig on June 17, 2013 10:25 am in Uncategorized

GCHQ and the NSA between them employ tens of thousands of people.  I am bemused by the shock at the “revelation” they have been spying.  What on Earth did journalists think that spies do all day? That includes electronics spies.

Since Katherine Gun revealed that we spy on other delegations – and the secretariat – within the UN building, it is hardly a shock that we spy on other governments at summits in the UK.  For once, the government cannot pretend that the object is to save us all from terrorism, which is the usual catch all excuse.  Nor in the real world is any of the G20 nations a military threat to the UK.  The real truth of the matter is that our spies – GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 – are themselves a large and highly influential interest block within the state.  Lots of people make a great deal of money out of the security state, and this kind of activity is actually simply an excuse for taking money from taxpayers – which is from everyone who has ever bought anything – and giving that money to the “security industry”.

I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens, which is an unspeakable betrayal of the purpose of government.  Spying on other governments is a game they all play to extort money each to their own security elites.  But I will say that spying on the South African government seems pretty low.  Why?

Interception of diplomatic communications is plainly a gross breach of the Vienna Conventions, even if the forms of communication have changed since they were drafted.  I have never studied the particulars of international law as they relate to spying, but it seems to me an area that in the modern world needs regulation.  There must be room here for the UN to be involved in preparing a Convention to outlaw the interception of international communications, with recourse to the International Court of Justice for those victim of it.

There is more work for the UN on Syria.  We should all be grateful that Russia is holding out against the very dubious western claims that the  Syrian government has deployed chemical weapons.  But while Obama can declare all the red lines he wishes, they do not give any country a right to take action on Syrian soil without UN authority.  That needs to be restated, strongly.  There is no basis at all for the continued and massive Israeli attacks on Syria - they are absolutely illegal.  Israeli strikes have definitely killed more people than the alleged deaths from chemical weapons.  Can someone explain to me why that is not a red line?

The UN Secretary General should be speaking out, and the UN Security Council should be meeting, to discuss the Israeli attacks on Syria.  The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.

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  1. “The UN Secretary General should be speaking out, and the UN Security Council should be meeting, to discuss the Israeli attacks on Syria. The system of international law has broken down irretrievably”.

    Yes, they should and it has but …

    The UN has become powerless … if it was ever anything else … and Israel is a rogue state backed up politically, economically and militarily by the biggest, most powerful rogue state in the world.

  2. One mans red line is another mans blood.

    Good post again Craig.

    Maybe divorce emboldens Putin?

    Hope the heel is er…healing.

  3. Having been born in the ’50s and growing up until I was thirty-odd with the Berlin wall which they killed people for trying to get over, when the Stalinist excesses were still well within living memory and the Hungarian and Czechoslovak invasions more recent than that, I never thought that I would live to see the day when I would say “Thank God for Russia”.

  4. Russia’s radio and TV broadcasts are also filling gaps in “Western” MSM.

  5. Somebody had to pull all the threads together (and no i definitely do not mean the comments degenerating to a heel). Brilliant holistic view Craig pulling together various aspects and bringing cohesive focus to the role of the UN, international law and Israel’s liberties. The UN should also investigate the free flow of money from Saudi Arabia and other Gulf member states to the extremists, but of course that’s not about to happen.

  6. Your spell checker seems geographically challenged, Craig (paragraph 3).

  7. What do these thousands of employees of the state system do all day?

    They cannot be asking how can we be improving the quality of life for all people; considering environmental effects and sustainability.

    As with most, they are
    truly considering what delhi sandwich to have – and what healthy drink option to obtain.

    I can only see change with some major artistic, cultural, or economic invention, that stays uncompromised.

    Joy rates highly.
    Hope your getting better Craig, ease of the gas and your foot should improve.

    Hope maestro is well.

  8. ‘I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens…’

    Maybe not, but is there not something deeply unpleasant in the shameless dishonesty here? – setting up bugged email cafes for G20 delegates? Imagine inviting a guest to your home and offering him the use of a laptop during his stay, and installing key-logger software to capture his log-on details and read his email. I suspect there is hardly a person in the country who would behave in such a despicable fashion to a guest, but it seems to be routine behaviour among the people who rule the country.

  9. With or without external interference, Syria has sufficient internal conflict now to ensure that any post-war settlement will require an aggressive enforcement of peace under a brutal regime. What can the UN do? Partition the country like we saw in Korea? Not many countries split or reunite without bloodshed. I don’t think Syrians will quickly forget their grudges so we might be looking at a couple of decades of misery before things improve for their people.

  10. “The strict surveillance that states once maintained over the activities of the citizenry have been shifted to other centers of power technically able (although not always legally) to find out to whom we have written, what we have bought, what trips we have taken, what our encyclopedic interests are, even our sexual preferences. The big problem facing a citizen’s private life is not hackers, which are no more frequent than the highwaymen who beset travelling merchants, but cookies and all those other technical marvels that make it possible to collect information about every one of us.

    If in Orwell’s novel Big Brother was an alegory for Stalin, the ‘little father’, the modern Big Brother watching us has no face and is not an individual, it is the global economy in its entirety. Like Foucault’s Power, it is not a recognisable entity but the combination of a series of power centers that accept the game, backing one another up reciprocally. The member of one center of power who spies on others making purchases in the supermarket will be spied on in turn when he pays his hotel bill with a credit card. When Power no longer has a face, it becomes invincible. Or at least difficult to control.

    Who wants their privacy defended? Those who have secret busines dealings, those who wish their personal correspondence to remain personal, those working on research that they do not yet wish to make public. We know all this perfectly well, but how many people call for this right? It seems to me that one of the great tragedies of mass society, of the press, television, and Internet, is the voluntary renunciation of privacy. The extreme expression of this renunciation is, at its pathalogical limit, exhibitionism. It strikes me as paradoxical that someone has to struggle for the defense of privacy in a society of exhibitionists.

    The fact is that the authorities who watch over our privacy need to defend not only those who wish to be defended but also those who no longer know how to defend themselves. It is precisely the behaviour of exhibitionists that tell us how much the assault on privacy has become -more than a crime- a social cancer. First and foremost, we should educate children to save them from the corrupting influence of their parents.

    But it’s a vicious circle. The assault on privacy accustoms everyone to the disappearance of privacy. Little by little we become exhibitionists, having learned that nothing can be kept confidential anymore and that no behaviour is considered scandalous. Those who are attacking our privacy, seeing that the victims themselves consent, will no longer stop at any violation.

    We must learn to work out, spread, and reward a new sensibility towards reserve, to educate people about reserve for themselves and toward others. Regarding respect for our own privacy, I’d like to quote the last phrase from the brief note left by Cesare Pavese before he committed suicide: “Don’t gossip too much.”

    Umberto Eco from the ‘The Loss of Privacy’ conference speech, Venice, Sept 2000

  11. It’s a bit optimistic to assume that the UN isn’t part of the problem in itself. Its agenda seems skewed, if not to say downright corrupt and if intelligence agencies adon’t respect their own governments, of what purpose would there be to suppose that anyone would respect the UN. It would just take agencies out of all administration, an arms length fuck you squad.

  12. Shin Bet operatives were/still are at Johannesburg airport.

  13. The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.

    This has been so for the last decade. The dying throws of the US empire has torn the mask of respectability and pretentious of adherence to laws and conventions ring hollow.

    The question arising: will the world recover from such a lawlessness, or will we spiral into an Hobbesian abyss?

    So far as the securofucks are concerned, these peeping toms, are out to only satiate their filthy voyeuristic penchants, at the expense of we the tax payers. Because any head of state, or foreign delegate damn fine well will know they are being spied on, and will act accordingly. Thus spying on these delegates is a purposeful activity akin to manufacture of chocolate fire-guards. However when there is free money and lots of it, who gives a damn?

    Although those sick malingerers taking up hospital beds and dying, ought not be getting a free ride from the state, and if they can so much as walk to the toilet unaided, they can damn fine well work too! Take away their sickness benefits, I say (cries the Tory/neo-labour/liberal tossers selected to attend the public trough called; the parliament); this is the way to save money!

  14. karel (conspiracy a day keeps idiocy away)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 1:27 pm


    i share your amazement. If someone told me in nineteeneighties that I will watch RT one day then I would have considered him to be an imbecile. But it is all said by the prophetic Alan Price Everyone is going through the changes noone knows what is going on…

    more on

  15. Must say I don’t understand most of this – e.g.. getting upset about GCHQ data-mining summits, not objecting to The Guardian’s censoring the more important bits, not being upset that the newspaper doesn’t see fit to post more important revelations when Snowden needs NOW all the exposure he can get, posters finally seeing some good in Russia as if it had never done any good while it was part of the USSr, etc.

    Would think that The Guardian would allow the documents to speak for themselves, be eager to post ones about whistleblowers who have been destroyed for leaking secrets about them, and that people in the West had some idea of who got rid of the Axis powers, and who saved us from nuclear war when the Iran-Contra plotters attempted to end the Cold War with a non-nuclear one a the expense Olof Palme and a few dozen others.

  16. I do not approve at all of allowing the mainstream media to filter leaks.

  17. Still waiting to see if Snowden has any revelations, and the media posts them about the unsolved or most inadequately covered up assassinations of whistleblowers Olof Palme, Dr. David Kelly, Anna Lindh, GMP Chief Constable Mike Todd, former Foreign Secretary Robin Cook, Stephen Hilder, Alexandr Litvinenko, Gareth Williams, Gudrun Loftus, Professor Steve Rawlings, etc., ad nauseam.

  18. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 2:32 pm

    Haven’t heard from Craig’s old FCO mucker lately, or perhaps we have under a pseudonym.

    He’s currently obsessing about Russia on his Twitter.

  19. Well I’m a bit surprised ‘cos I thought in the Vauxhall Westminster areas for example that spies lolled about all day in zipped up largish RED HOLDALLS. Ah well you live and learn. Wonder if they’re investigating unsightly Pimlico washing lines? They seem to be causing consternation in some circles.

  20. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 2:37 pm

    And on his Torygraph blog(oir) Europe.

    How does he get time to eat what with all this tweeting and blogging?

    8 references to Craig Murray on his own blog(oir) and one to me!

  21. Oh, I want to get on Crawford’s listing too.

    How about this:

    Charles Crawford can mouth off about Russia from rural Oxfordshire until the ghosts of Stephen Hilder and Dr.David Kelly reappear, but it won’t change the fact that we would all be nuclear cinders if Vladimir Putin had not successfully managed KCB assets from Dresden when the non-nuclear conclusion of the Cold War was planned in the wake of Palme’s assassination in Stockholm.

  22. technicolour

    17 Jun, 2013 - 3:00 pm

    Tdg: great post, thanks.

    Of course, Russian intelligence spies on everyone too.

    Craig: agreed, the UN needs to raise and deal with this.

  23. Trowbridge H Ford, you left out Bernt Carlsson from your list of assassinated whistle-blowers. He was probably the main target of the Lockerbie bombing of Pan Am flight 103, because he was just about to give independence to Namibia from De Beers and the blood diamond exploitation of Africa.

    Unfortunately all spying and secret service activity is no longer funded solely by the taxpayer in the UK. There would be less of it if it was. We have followed the US and Israel in that the secret services, MI5 and MI6 set up front companies, often global, which are, and have to be, profit-making to be believable. The line is blurred but there must be a good book somewhere that tries to show, and separate, where MI5 and MI6 funding is involved, not just in espionage, but in the establishment of power-elites across the industrial and government spectrum, a bit like Andrew Kreig’s forthcoming book about CIA and other involvement (Karl Rove for example) in US political elites. Its called Presidential Puppetry and I wish he would hurry up and finish it.

    In the late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century visitors from all over Europe had the Soho Manufactory at Birmingham on their list of places of interest, very often to steal, if they could, the latest ideas. Matthew Boulton was aware of this but the difference was that in those days the demarcation lines between industrial espionage and government espionage were more clearly defined. Today it is a nightmare.

  24. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 3:40 pm

    Flaming June writes, à propos of Charles Crawford :

    “How does he get time to eat what with all this tweeting and blogging?”

    A question I’ve sometimes asked myself about you, my dear

  25. Acknowledging the “system of international law has broken down irretrievably” one paragraph after calling for more international law is odd.

    Next, you’ll be recognising all politicains as corruptible whilst declaring your support for the next one.

  26. Habbabkuk @ 3:40 p.m. I hope you are not going to restart your insulting tirade having been the very last of those on this blog to recognise the identity of a certain individual comment-maker. It is out of order. Stay on topic. This blog is not for insulting individuals but for expressing topical views. If you bear bear that in mind life could be so so good.

  27. Thanks, John Goss, for the addition as it illustrates what you are saying.

    The Lockerbie tragedy also got rid of a CIA team which was throwing light on its most covert arms for drugs for money scheme which Oliver North’s Iran-Contra thugs were running, especially the Syrian al-Manucher (sp?) connection, and some researchers claim that Carlsson was involved in finding out who killed his close political friend, Olof Palme, an Anglo-American plot of the deepest dimensions.

    If you go back there, you could also talk about German politician Uwe Barschel and Swedish arms overseer Admiral Frederic Algernon.

    Our governments just run plots of an increasingly sophisticated nature.

  28. “but it seems to me an area that in the modern world needs regulation.” – Well, yeah, but, just as they get away with spying because it’s sectet, so they can (and indeed do) break existing law/regulation now and will break any regulation in the future. Any ‘regularator’ can easily be bought off or blackmailed or bribed or even better installed as a puppet in the first place.

    Better (perhaps) is a more powerful wikileaks where the spies have their stuff tufed out into the open.

    There used to be a poster at called ‘Spies and traitors will be shot’. It was an interesting nick.

    P.S. the UN is pathetic.

  29. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 4:10 pm

    OT-Snowden on GG right now answering questions live…..I just can’t see replies.

  30. “It’s a bit optimistic to assume that the UN isn’t part of the problem in itself.” – Indeed.!

  31. Sorry, John, I was referring to Syrian Monzer al-Kassar.

    Got him mixed up with another Iran-Contra scum bag

  32. Over 93,000 dead in Syria so far but the UN should concentrate on Israel’s incursions…

  33. Phil

    International law is a wonderful thing. The alternative, which is to what we are now degenerating, is that the Americans and Israelis kill anyone they want and seize anything they want, because they can.

  34. Looks like the Guardian interview with Snowdem won’t get very far as he side stepped the question of the US government destroying whistleblowers, preferring to state that Washington had destroyed his chances of getting a fair trial, only to conclude GG’s question by stating his disclourses will get out even if it kills him.

    My question to him is: How does he know that previous whistleblowers have suffered this fate, and who does he have in mind and why?

  35. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 4:49 pm

    Craig; Is there some reason for your lack of interest in Snowden? I know you had one post on it, but then….

  36. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 5:05 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “…having been the very last of those on this blog to recognise the identity of a certain individual comment-maker.”

    You’ve lost me. Can you expand, please?

  37. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 5:17 pm

    @ John Goss :

    “Stay on topic. This blog is not for insulting individuals but for expressing topical views”


    Leaving aside the apparent contradiction between the injunction to “stay on topic” (ie, the topic of this thread) and the assertion that this blog (including this thread, presumably)is for “expressing topical views” (ie, any topical views on anything), could you tell me why you did not issue the same reproof to Flaming June, who posted an off-topic, irrelevant and implicitly insulting comment about a former UK ambassador called Charles Crawford?

    I hope you’re not applying different standards to different people? If you’d like to prove that you are not, I invite you to explain how Flaming June’s comment was relevant to the theme of this thread.

    Thank you.

  38. ‘The real truth of the matter is that our spies – GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 – are themselves a large and highly influential interest block within the state.’ I agree.

    But I think they go much, much further. A fire walled elite is involved in massive illegal economic activity much of which is put down to criminal gangs or Russian mafia etc.

  39. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 5:40 pm

    @ Ruth

    re your para 1 – I would agree that they are an interest block (as are any groups of professionals or corporations) but I’m less convinced of their high influence.

    re your para 2 – a serious and disturbing allegation. Would you like to be more specific and also point to what you consider to be concrete examples?

  40. On Sunday Agent Cameron spoke to British journalists saying, “The Syrian opposition have committed to a democratic, pluralistic Syria that will respect minorities, including Christians.”

    As I expected when Cameron abruptly aborted ‘WebCameron’ – – a ‘family show’ fashioned to bring Prime minister Cameron nearer/closer to the British people he represents/embodies, yet heavily criticized for a complete lack of commitment to queries on hegemony, torture, extraordinary rendition and state control, referring instead to issue worthless scripted political statements.

    This man and his cohorts clearly lack empathy and thus zero consideration for the plight of those peoples stricken in the post-invasion aftermaths by the rampant Western powers hell bent on coveting world resources; Libya and Iraq are clearly blood-soaked examples.

  41. It turns out being destroyed by the government is what happened to Thomas Drake, William Binney, and John Kirakou who was even tried for leaking secrets, and sentenced to 30 months in prison.

    Still, according to Snowden, the country is somehow worth dying for.

    Count me out!

  42. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    I do not tweet nor do I have a blog for the troll’s information.

    Charles Crawford is a recurring subject on this blog over the years but the troll, having joined as late as last November, probably does not know that.

    Amazing how he makes what he considers something off topic even more off topic by giving it emphasis by repetition.

  43. “Habbakuk” is a perfect illustration of the enormous amounts of spare time and arrogance that the Establishment’s security services have. The appointment of this rather dim but dogged character to bully one of our commentators ought to give “June” some satisfaction: her frequent, eloquent and wise interventions clearly rattle the tax scoffing scoundrels whom Habbakuk so admires.

    The troll himself should, however, be sent to Coventry. Do not feed him, tempting though it is to find fault with his nonsense. And spitting at him doesn’t work, as the screen on my computer, unfortunately, shows.

  44. International spying can’t be regulated.

    And that’s true a fortiori, if, as you say, the system of international law has broken down irretrievably.

    Which is not meant to imply that I know when you think the said system was working hunkydorily. Nobody thinks it was doing so when Italy invaded Abyssinia, or during WW2. During the Korean war maybe? Or the Malayan emergency? Kenya? Algeria? Vietnam? The Falklands? Has it ever done anything close to ‘working’ where Zionist crimes have been concerned, or crimes committed by officers of the US state?

    Even just keeping to the topic of electronic spying, let’s recall that one of the functions of the very fabric of the UK microwave network, since the early 1960s, has been to allow the NSA to get on with its job. That was after a short post-Suez blip followed the period after the UKUSA treaty, which itself was long kept secret.

    CIA and US military capability have been built similarly firmly into the British polity (to take an important example, the head of the CIA’s London station attends the weekly meetings of the Joint Intelligence Committee), as has Zionist capability into Britain’s parliamentary democracy, education system, media, and culture.

    But I share your view of those idiot hacks who are so shocked that NSA and GCHQ do their jobs.

  45. The Edward Snowden case sounds more and more like i said – i.e., he was caught by surprise by an FBI honeytrap – what entrapped defense contractor Ben Bishop in Hawaii – and when he learned that he was to pay a big price which only got back at the independently-minded Bureau, he threatened to go all out to expose the free-wheeling spooks, once he made his way to HK.

    His Guardian interview clearly showed that he is willing to settle for a process which bothered leakers like William Binney, Thomas Drake, and even John Kirakou, provided Washington drops the claims that he has contacted China’s Ministry of State Security, and stops connecting him to the Bishop case.

    If not, he is willing to take new steps as both a spy and whistleblower.

    Conisider the case essentially closed.

  46. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 6:32 pm

    Trowbridge; very interesting idea wrt motivation. any links for your connectivity of thought?

  47. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 6:54 pm

    @ Chris2 :

    ““Habbakuk” is a perfect illustration of the enormous amounts of spare time and arrogance that the Establishment’s security services have. The appointment of this rather dim but dogged character to bully one of our commentators ought to give “June” some satisfaction: her frequent, eloquent and wise interventions clearly rattle the tax scoffing scoundrels whom Habbakuk so admires.”

    I was tempted to let this piece of nonsense stand unanswered and will in fact do so, except only to point out the apparent contradiction between
    (1) claiming that I work for the security services (“the appointment”)
    (2) suggesting that I’m on the outside looking in (“the scoundrels whom Habbabkuk so admires”).

    I take the opportunity of agreeing with Chris2 when he characterizes Mary’s interventions as frequent. Eloquent – well, sometimes (except it’s usually quotations); wise – rarely.


    La vita è bella, life is good! (greetings to all my fans)

  48. Thanks, Ben, you’re generally quite constructive.

    Well, I would certainly read about the on-going turf war between the Bureau and the CIA – what led directly to the 9/11 fiasco, and Director Robert Mueller in the midst of this crisis saying it could have bee prevented by proper surveillance.

    The biggest reason why it didn’t happened is because of the Palme assassination fiasco, and the belated spying it ultimately uncovered, first that by CIA’s Rick Ames, and then that by Robert Hanssen just before Mueller took over and 9/11 occurred.

    I am only able to offer my own work because all other researchers are either asleep or corrupted.

    See my double article in Issue Eight of Eye Spy magazine, my articles on the spying and belated capture of Ames and Hanssen on, and the continuing wars on it, Veterans Today, and Flying Cuttlefish Picayune.

    Then read that article about the Ben Bishop and Snowden cases by LAT’s reporter Maria I LaGonga.

    Then go through the Guardian interview with Snowden.

    And if I think of anything else, I shall add it.

  49. Edward Snowden’s revelations come as no surprise having read L.Fletcher Prouty’s book The Secret Team, written back in 1972.

  50. What is worse is that these so-called ‘intelligence’ agencies are not only spying – they also make use of the information collected.
    Maybe one day we shall all hear the more horrifying story about how these intercepted communications can be used and manipulated.

  51. ‘I do not view spying on other governments as quite as despicable as spying on ordinary citizens, which is an unspeakable betrayal of the purpose of government. Spying on other governments is a game they all play to extort money each to their own security elites.’

    I do regard it as despicable. I think it is absolutely abhorrent. Call me naive if you must, but the key to providing a free and open society — a ‘liberal society’, if you will — is frank and open disclosure about the inner workings of government; and that includes the machinations of the security services. I understand that certain aspects of government must be kept secret: nuclear launch codes, the location of military facilities, important financial assets, etc. But I think, if we want to live in a less paranoid planet, if we want to live in a society of equals, then we need to take the first step in renouncing the overuse of surveillance against citizens and foreign governments. Let other bankrupt states play the game if they wish. Let them tap into the emails, phone records, and encrypted messages of state leaders. Let them engage in high risk espionage and low intensity operations. We, however, should have none of it. Liberty should never be traded for security unless it is absolutely necessary (the definition of which should remain for the public to decide). For the simple truth is that states, and the intelligence agencies attached to them, generally try to safeguard an immoral and sadistically twisted elite. They thrive in the dark, as you well know.

  52. ‘The system of international law has broken down irretrievably.’

    The system of international law was never entirely fit for purpose. Multiple violations have taken place since its ad hoc construction over the years, and millions of lives have lost under the sustained gaze of the legal community. This points to the fact that international law is nothing more than a tool in the arsenal of imperial power. When it secures are interests, we follow it. When it does not, we quibble about its wording or infer it proceeds from a corrupted source. If that fails, we violate it root and branch and then create amendments in our interest. The law cannot stop war, cannot sustain the system. Only a well educated, compassionate, and critically minded public can do that.

  53. “Only a well educated, compassionate, and critically minded public can do that.”

    Gawain, now thats about the wisest thing thats been said on this blog for a long time and thank you for raising the level of the conversation here.

    Educated in my view, as Einstein put it, all you know once you’ve forgotten everything you’ve learned at school. Then one can be critially-minded, as in creative and fresh. Real compassion can then flow from such a state of mind.

    Agree with the rest of your comments too and we need to start with the reality of where we are, as you say, “The system of international law was never entirely fit for purpose.”

  54. “Flaming June
    17 Jun, 2013 – 5:46 pm
    I do not tweet nor do I have a blog for the troll’s information.

    Charles Crawford is a recurring subject on this blog over the years but the troll, having joined as late as last November, probably does not know that.

    Amazing how he makes what he considers something off topic even more off topic by giving it emphasis by repetition.”

    I thought Flaming June only arrived this month!?

    Anyway, no matter how long you have patronised this blog, it doesn’t absolve your responsibility to provide context. Or, stay on topic at least for a few hours, as a matter of courtesy to others.

  55. Craig 17 Jun, 2013 – 4:36 pm
    “International law is a wonderful thing.”

    Tell that to a palestinian with a straight face. Or a Sudanese, Iraqi…etc, etc, etc.

    International law is just more law – by the few for the few. Power is never restrained by law. Empire writes, changes and ignores the law. It is an illusion of some justice to keep good people on board.

  56. “Edward Snowden Q&A: NSA whistleblower answers your questions”

  57. Phil, eloquent observation. You point out quite rightly the difficulty/impracticality of accessing ‘international justice’. Thanks for helping put one’s finger on it. A total illusion indeed.

  58. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 9:16 pm

    Thanks Chris 2. I changed from my real name to attempt an escape from the troll’s unpleasantness. Failed. Anyway this blog is not about me,as I have said before, and the troll’s attention has been unwanted throughout.

    As June has not been very ‘flaming’, at least where I live, I will return to my real name in July.


    Villager May I say that what you said about me was not very Krishmamurthy of you. ;)

  59. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 9:28 pm

    Julian Assange prepared for five more years in embassy, says Ecuador
    Foreign minister Ricardo Patiño says situation is ‘totally unjust’, as talks arranged between British and Ecuadorean legal experts


    Julian Assange: Ecuador will continue to grant asylum

    Julian Assange is to stay in the Embassy. Poor man. He is imprisoned. All the news channels could say on the matter this afternoon was about the high cost of the policing and who should pay for it. The answer is obvious. Let him go.

  60. doug scorgie

    17 Jun, 2013 - 9:35 pm

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)
    17 Jun, 2013 – 5:40 pm

    You reply to Ruth:

    “I would agree that they [GCHQ, MI5, and MI6] are an interest block (as are any groups of professionals or corporations) but I’m less convinced of their high influence.”

    Surely you’re not implying that GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 are mere lobbyists that have no more influence than other “groups of professionals or corporations”?

    They are an integral part of the state whose job is to spy on unsuspecting individuals and organisations.

    Their power and influence lies with the nature of information (intelligence) directly or indirectly collected which can be used by the state for various good or nefarious purposes.

    The “right kind” of information can be used to threaten, bribe, blackmail or entrap powerful figures in the justice system, the police, the government, MPs, political parties, high profile activists; the opportunities are endless both at home and abroad.

    Information is power.

    “Do not seek for information of which you cannot make use.”
    (Anna C. Brackett 1892)

  61. Flaming June

    17 Jun, 2013 - 9:43 pm

    Meant to post this before. It’s a video from last week’s Ch 4 Newa. Caspar Bowden has worda of wisdom and gives us information on what powers the US are taking and against which the individual has no recourse. He is warning us.

  62. Trowbridge H Ford. He, Monzer al Kasser, seems like a nasty piece of work.

    Considering Africa makes me think of that other arms-running leech, Tim Spicer, who is now a private army contractor for the US in Iraq protecting US stolen oilfields there. These sub-humans are not worth your spit.

  63. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 10:05 pm

    Trowbridge; I tried to look at your articles, but was defeated by registraion.

    The issue with Bishop is interesting. I know CIA uses illicit sex charges to gum up the works, but I’m not sure it works in reverse with Snowden. I accept the slight possibility Snowden was fleeing, but there is nothing I can see (HuffPo also did Bishop) which dissuades me from believing Snowden’s the real deal. Thanks.

  64. Unbelievable – and no doubt coming to a country near you …

    ‘How Shell is trying to send a chill through activist groups across the country’

    “This summer, the 9th Circuit Court in California is weighing the question of whether companies have the right to take preemptive legal action against peaceful protesters for hypothetical future protests. This will be an extraordinary decision that could have a significant impact on every American’s First Amendment rights …” [continues]

  65. Flaming June: “Villager May I say that what you said about me was not very Krishmamurthy of you. ”

    How would you know — you can’t even spell his name! And a couple of months ago after giving you some info you asked for, your reply was “Even Krishnamurti.” When asked several times to clarify, you ignored requests. Anyway as K would say you have too much monkey chatter going on, hence we see you all over the place; no cohesion. Always quoting quoting quoting copying pasting frenetically and yes peppered with your snide remarks that debase the subject.

    I do feel sorry for you that you see this as your life’s work just when i felt sorry Habba would take you to task once too often. But i’m disappointed at the arrogance you display and your dishonesty when you said i hauled you over the coals for not using punctuations. Do you want me to copy Jon’s advice for you again. Dreolin also pointed it out a couple of times gently and you brushed her aside and half nasty.

    Old age is all about wisdom, but its never too late to take a look in the mirror. Its how we learn — in the mirror of relationship. Feel free to quote me on Krishnamurti if you want but before you do be honest and try to ‘get it’ first. “even Krishnamurti” — you can still explain.

  66. Found almost all the articles on

    Just google one of the articles, say why it look so long to catch ames and hanssen, and once you have finished it, just go to the names of the authors on its right, and once you have found my name, just go through the 163 articles on file.

    I am not saying that Snowden is not a real spy – only became one after the Bureau set him up in a honey trap so that he was made to look like one.

  67. How does a troll-pack work?

    Today’s “Preparing to Bomb Syria” thread shows it as clear as day.

    Villager. Multiple personalities or what?

    June. Don’t let them get under your skin.

  68. And btw lets be clear Habbabkuk is not a troll so when people use that word they only show their weakness in not being able to stand up to his questions or arguments.

    On abuse, i haven’t seen any one else have more abuse showered on him but he’s proven that he can rebut it without enjoining them in their lowered standards. Thats because he is in addition to being very intellectual he is highly articulate.

    I’ve also come to see that he has a great sense of humour, sometimes even self-deprecating, and uses it very effectively to diffuse tensions. Compare that with Chris2 spitting at his computer screen, how desperately low can you get?

  69. “Villager. Multiple personalities or what?”

    I’ll take that as a compliment. Just plain flexibility of mind, the ability to see things how they are, objectively without the fear of a pack and a herd mentality.

    Be original bring some fresh insights, but please don’t punish us with your poetry any further.

  70. Craig wrote:

    “Lots of people make a great deal of money out of the security state, and this kind of activity is actually simply an excuse for taking money from taxpayers – which is from everyone who has ever bought anything – and giving that money to the “security industry”.”

    National governments, especially that of the US, are now the biggest buyers of software vulnerabilities, and presumably the invasive malware required to exploit them:

    “If the U.S. government knows of a vulnerability that can be exploited, under normal circumstances, its first obligation is to tell U.S. users,” Clarke said. “There is supposed to be some mechanism for deciding how they use the information, for offense or defense. But there isn’t.”

    In order for the government to exploit vulnerabilities discovered in major software, they cannot disclose those vulnerabilities to the manufacturers or the public, lest the exploit be fixed.

    Off topic: why Jack Straw should pay Abu Qatada’s legal aid bill:

  71. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 10:55 pm

    Trowbridge; Whew! That’s a lot to digest. Gonna take a while, but it’s an impressive body of work you have there.

  72. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 10:57 pm

    Clark; I was just going to email and see wtf you’ve been up to. :)

  73. A ramble through the weeds…

    Were the spambots that used to plague this site before Tim and Co sorted it, more than merely random spambotic activity? Who knows? Anyway, as the regular oldies (oldies, that is, in terms of specific blog-age rather than necessarily chronological age), I used to enjoy talking insouciantly to the spambots in their own, unique tongue. I ultimately got some exasperated flak for that (when I accused a spambot of being an upper-class spy) from the poster who used to be known as ‘Richard Robinson’. Where did he go? Is he still with us in another guise, or has he evaporated into the fragmentary, ancient songs of nettle and weed?

    But on a more serious note, yes, the security industry is massive and expanding and (this is relatively new) promotes itself relentlessly. Think of Sawyers-in-Speedos; that was a PR offensive aimed to make Sawyers seem like an ordinary and nerdish ‘1970s-man’ human being like you or I (though perhaps your first chloice would not be Speedos) or like those ‘David Bedfords’ in the long-running TV advert for a product which, for the life of me, I cannot – do not wish to – remember.

    Likewise, the tale put about of the recently retired MI5 Chief having to wait around in a security queue at an airport when he returned from holiday – a Regular Joe, you see? There cannot be anything sinsister about a Regular Joe, you see! The security services hire PR companies for this specific purpose.

    Think too of the FSB’s deep – systemic – involvement in organised crime. But as Ruth suggests, it’s not just Russia. As a cohort, ‘Russians’ seem to get a bad name in Britain, while the Chinese get a good press. This is all silly. And, one imagines, ‘we’ (or rather, ‘them’ who rule us, spy on us and take our labour and run…) also consist of variegated configurations. Well, you know, there are parts of – people in – the FSB and its domestic equivalent that/ who actually do their job properly, and then there are parts that basically murder and destroy people. I’m not suggesting that MI5 and MI6 are quite on that level and no doubt there are principled officers who do their jobs as best they can – though maybe Ruth knows something wrt organised financial criminality most of us do not. In which case, I do wish she would write that explosive essay I’ve been urging her to write for ages and post it somewhere prominent – go on, Ruth! Or perhaps Courtenay knows more – offshore havens, laundering, etc.? Of course, Roderick Russell – who has an excellent piece in the current Lobster magazine – has first-hand experience of the hard state, over in Canada.

    Naturally, the function of the security services is firstly to their own empire-within-an-empire and secondly to preserve the preserve of those who own big things and who help ensure the security/intel complex continues to be bankrolled – white, grey and black monies. The early 1990s in Britain a time of fear for the spooks. But that period of uncertainty ended in September 2001. The core aspect of the ‘industry’ is the systemic intimacy b/w the private security sector (in which I would include mercenary ex-Special Forces-type outfits, like Blackwater, or Sweetmeat, or Sour Grapes, or Nannies-on-Acid, or whatever it likes to call iself these days – but there are many, many others) and the hard state. Criminality, it seems to me, is inherent, in terms of both form and content. It is nomative. We should expect no different. The end-target is the human spirit. Cultivate the human spirit and you defy the entire weight of the hard state: Butterfly.

  74. Right, don’t even try to read it all -just what strikes your fancy.

    And just remember that little of it was even properly proof-read because I am the world’s worst in that department, and none of it was edited.

    I just had to express what I really thought about things after having lived for years under the censoring eyes of academe.

    If you are inclined to sue because of brain damage, I am willing to settle out of court.

  75. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 11:20 pm

    Well some graf-breaks and white space would help,, but the brain-damage has long been water under the bridge. Again I say;
    outstanding work.

  76. @Villager. 10 49pm

    …”don’t punish us with your poetry any further.”

    Apologies there. I hadn’t intended it to be read as poetry. I just wanted to be brief as I’ve other matters to deal with tonight. You’ll have noticed I’ve given the poetry a rest for a good while now.

    My point was that it seemed to me when I skimmed through the day’s thread that you and Habbakuk seemed clearly to be working as a team, especially in respect of your usual target.

    I also found it revealing that as soon as Sofia got serious and asked you a simple and pertinent question which was for once, as she admitted, “on-topic” you both disappeared, leaving Kempe to try to clean up your mess.

    Now tonight you are both hard at work trying, as usual, to distract Flaming June. This time you have slipped into your righteous Krishnamurti persona.

    I can’t believe I’m the only one who can see this but I wanted to briefly draw attention to how you work.

  77. @FlamingJune
    I like Chris 2’s point. Habwonks’s relentless pursuit is a compliment to your one woman news dissemination service.

    Habwonk does intrigue me in one respect. The colloquial sometimes goes over his head and he uses pretentious words awkwardly, so I speculate he is a (youngish) man with (good) english as a second language. This makes me wonder if PR companys are outsourcing their troll hiring (much like the call center industry did twenty years back). A unit in, say, Mumbai would be a very tempting saving over a Soho basement to the likes of bell pottinger.

    @Kibo Noh
    I agree. Villager’s defence of Habwank is ridiculous. Perhaps they really are the same person. Or on the same team. The old bad troll less-bad troll one two. Give us a sign Jon. Are we warm?

  78. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 11:33 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie (21h35):

    “You reply to Ruth:

    “I would agree that they [GCHQ, MI5, and MI6] are an interest block (as are any groups of professionals or corporations) but I’m less convinced of their high influence.”

    Surely you’re not implying that GCHQ, MI5 and MI6 are mere lobbyists that have no more influence than other “groups of professionals or corporations”?”

    No, of course I’m not calling them mere lobbyists (although I’m sure that they lobby government). You’ve possibly misunderstood me : I was using the words (“interest block”) Ruth used and in the same sense as Ruth used them.

    BTW, you’ll recall that the second half of my post went on to ask Ruth a question. As you have taken a flattering interest in our conversation, perhaps you’d now care to answer my question on her behalf as well?


    La vita è bella, life is good!

  79. Ramble all you want Suhaly Saadi.

    Lucky for our JJonathan ‘Bob’ Evans aka William Perkins that he didn’t run into me with his guard down, as he would been calling for it as I continued to press him about who was responsible, and how had the deadly helicopter crash occurred at the Mull 19 years ago.

    Evans is the worst of Britain’s so-called counter terrorists.

    And countries’ intelligences services should be judged on a case by case basis.

  80. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jun, 2013 - 11:48 pm

    Suahayl; ‘Butterfly Effect” or Muhammed Ali (float like a butterfly)? Seriously, I get it. Mark refers to an aspect of that approach as ‘the power of intention’.

  81. Kibo, you poor deluded thing. Hope all that you’ve been smoking at least helps you sleep well. Go read some more detective novels and sharpen your ability to see things as they are. Meantime sign-up as a card-carrying member of the June and Sofia act — it’ll give you a sense of belonging. And perhaps give your shoddy little life some meaning.

  82. Phil. 11:29 pm

    “@FlamingJune…one woman news dissemination service.”

    You bet!


    Here’s an observation from the “Preparing to Bomb Syria” thread earlier today.

    @Sofia Zabolotna-Habbercake. 4:14 pm

    “Habbabkuk and Villager

    At 1 51pm I asked…”tell us why you are avoiding the issue of the fake “Assad uses sarin so we have to save them with our bombs” plot?”

    For once I was on-topic and I think the question was appropriate.

    In the two hour period before that, between you, you sent 5 posts, containing zero information.

    In the two plus hours since then you sent zero posts, but managed to provide us with just as much information.

    I wonder what could all that mean?”


    Just how stupid do “the Laurel and Hardy of these threads” think we are?

  83. A quick eyeball of today’s new blog and Mary/June’s on topic contribution:

    Flaming June
    17 Jun, 2013 – 12:30 pm
    Shin Bet operatives were/still are at Johannesburg airport.

    And the link with a 2009 ‘NEWS’ item!

  84. @Villager 11 48pm

    …..”And perhaps give your shoddy little life some meaning.”

    While I was writing that last post your Krishnamurti mask seems to have fallen off.

  85. Phil. another poor little insecure toad — yes go running to Jon he’ll give you the facts but your insecurities will remain. Try it!

    In summary, is that all you can contribute? Calling people trolls when you can’t stand up to them. May you raise your levels of insight — thats my prayer for you.

  86. Hotairballoon

    You obviously know that the wind travels at different speeds and even directions at different altitudes. Same as politics. Craig is kindly sharing his observations about high altitude politics with us, but you find it difficult to do more than bum over the grass.
    It’s so kind of you to share the secrets of courting dung flies you observe as you skilfully rise over the annoying cowpats of life with us.

  87. Kibo don’t venture towards Krishnamurti, not for children.

  88. @Gawain

    “The system of international law was never entirely fit for purpose. Multiple violations have taken place since its ad hoc construction over the years, and millions of lives have lost under the sustained gaze of the legal community. This points to the fact that international law is nothing more than a tool in the arsenal of imperial power”.

    Never a truer word was spoken.

    Don’t watch television any more but made an exception for this, this evening, on BBC 4:

    “The Law in These Parts:
    Documentary examining the legal system developed by the Israelis in the Occupied Territories”.

    It was a perfect example of your post … interviews with retired Israeli (mainly) military judges who (had) tried to square the legal circle … to deliver injustice, punishments and judgements that were illegal under international law while twisting and turning the law in order to claim that the ‘system’ was legal under international law.


  89. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 12:03 am

  90. I don’t know how stupid we really are, Kibo Noh, but one thing must be said for the not forgetting about the al-hillis thread has achieved – it isolated the worst of them, and is apparently killing some of them off from internet exhaustion.

  91. … JJonathan ‘Bob’ Evans aka William Perkins that he didn’t run into me with his guard down ….

    Is he the same Evans from the D division? The same guy who was a friend of your favourite P. Wright?

    BTW I don’t buy into Peter being the KGB mole. Further, what say you about the Tara Group, and the Kincora pimps hosts? Wright should have known about it, saying as he was interrogating Blunt for six years. However, have you any data or any hints as to Blunt’s assignment in Germany on behalf of a certain house, that is verboten to be talked about?

  92. Blaming America for sponsoring and arming rebels in Syria will not leech the source or seeds of asymmetric terrorist warfare. America is primary motivated by the petro-dollar, power and domination because it has and can. Corporate America understands and embraces the Zionist political thought, approach and technique.

    Deception has lived on earth since the dawn of time. The earliest impact of cunning was the Judas kiss of intermarriage between Canaan and Egyptian Pharaoh, kept secret for a millenium.

    A modern day example of cunning was the Zionist-Hashemite alliance of the 1930s and 1940s. This was a convergence between the interests of Israel and those of Hashemite Transjordan against other members of the bickering Arab coalition, and especially against the Palestinians. The original Hashim clan ruled the Hejaz region of Arabia which later was incorporated into Saudi Arabia.

    This tiny historiography I think gives us a unique perspective of modern day Middle East nuance and the ‘war on terrror’ duplicity combined with an agonising awareness and recognition the Jewish State was built on the ruins of the indigenous people of Palestine, whose livelihood, houses, cultures and land had been systematically destroyed. The exodus of Palestinians was in fact a flight from destruction and genocide.

    Making sense of the assembled pieces and winding the clock forward, taking in Saudi money and Saudi arms deals on the way, we arrive at the Takfiri (atoning) movement, the Saudi General Intelligence, Prince Bandar, Bush and the Al-Nusra Front.

    Thanks to funding from the Saudi General Intelligence Department and support from the Saudi Intelligence in Lebanon, al-Nusra was able to swiftly arm its forces, and make the Syrian regime suffer painful blows through its expertise gained from Iraq bombings and death squads assisted by British and American intelligence and special forces muscle.

    Does it not make sense to heavily arm these terrorists and exploit the Saudi gifts of oil reserves, opulance, wealth, luxury, riches and gold?

    Yes, to many(1%) it does, regardless of the humanitarian suffering, tragedy, torment and loss of freedom the world over.

    Ask Blair.

  93. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 12:30 am

    Well said, good Mark. Context is what’s missing from most opinions du jour.

  94. Phil
    “Habwonk does intrigue me in one respect. The colloquial sometimes goes over his head and he uses pretentious words awkwardly, so I speculate he is a (youngish) man with (good) english as a second language. This makes me wonder if PR companys are outsourcing their troll hiring (much like the call center industry did twenty years back). A unit in, say, Mumbai would be a very tempting saving over a Soho basement to the likes of bell pottinger.”

    You are treading on very dangerous ground here, although I personally think you are correct.
    I recently tried an experimental Assalamu Alaykum on him, but he avoided a knee-jerk response. I have been heavily criticised by my fellow under-dog-lovers for suggesting that my fellow Muslims hate the caring, intelligent side of the English people because it’s so much easier to label us all as heathen, grasping, lying, colonials.

    My conclusion is that Heebijeebs is a Pakistani who is paid to be cynical about UK values and portray them as hypocritical. And that he himself is a fully paid-up member of the Wow-Wahabi sect which also considers itself above the rest of us Muslims.

    There is a class system in sub-continent Islam between Gujus ( low, farm types and Rajas ( managers ). So I suspect that his persona thinks he is well above the highest characters from any of us. I presume he crawls back into the cowpat of his own superiority at night to feed on nutrients that higher life-forms, viz cows, have pre-digested for him. Nice work if you can get. But he never strikes me as having grasped the niceties of rational, humanitarian concern which this blog represents.

    I’m waiting for the fan-assisted cowpats to rain down and calls for the deletion of my comments. I have saved this one so if it is deleted by my disgusted coleagues, I can re-post it. This is really how low the intelligence agencies are stooping, not the sending weapons to Al Qaida bit, but the funding Muslim trolls on ex-Ambassador’s whistle-blowing comments pages.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 12:34 am

    Howdy there Guano, nice to have you back with us again! I was getting worried that Fisons had got you bagged up and that you’d been spread over a field somewhere.


    La vita è bella, life is good!

  96. Must be the same Evans.

    And don’t forget that Wright also made Richard Helms, the most dangerous DCI because he bought Wright’s crackpot realism about what the Soviets needed, and were doing.

    And I don’t care if you “buy” into my ideas about him.

    I am not running some bargain sale in a store – I am discussing the Soviets’ leading spy – what made the British elite look the world’s leading collection of idiots.

    This is what I know, and is verboten for Brits to talk about.

  97. @Villager. 12:00 am

    “Kibo don’t venture towards Krishnamurti, not for children.”

    On the strength of your example do you imagine I’d be remotely tempted?

    I visit this blog because I respect Craig’s commitment and observations and find so many valuable things out from other posters. It helps me make sense of the world I live in.

    I suppose I should just learn to scroll through obvious spoilers so I have only myself to blame. But I have to admit it bothers me to witness the constant campaign to disrupt and bully the genuine contributers.

    So I have to hand it to you. Tonight you have a small success and I fed you.

    Tomorrow you’ll still be spending your energy trying to upset people. I’ll have my finger ready with the “scroll down” button.

    “Dad. What did you do during the years of the Global Corporate Coup.”
    “Son. I worked hard to maintain deluded narratives to make sure that power remained with my masters.” Wow! What a legacy!

    To all who make this blog wonderful. Thank you. You have my respect.
    Goodnight All.

  98. Hazza

    Groomed any pasty teenagers recently? Clever stuff this spying, with a little bit of s**t on someone you can get them to do almost anything.

  99. I am not running some bargain sale in a store – I am discussing the Soviets’ leading spy – what made the British elite look the world’s leading collection of idiots.

    Now then, now then, then now! Getting tetchy and go on about commercial transactions.

    The Brit were made to look a collection of idiots long before that, Maclean, Philby, Burgess, Blunt,…..* However the question put to you so far is not answered (not demanding an answer, if you wish not to divulge); about Blunt’s secret assignment in Germany.

    * And before that there was there was the little matter of the nuclear spies.

    PS. Peter is a rabid fascist remember.

  100. “Howdy there Guano, nice to have you back with us again! I was getting worried that Fisons had got you bagged up and that you’d been spread over a field somewhere.”

    LOL Habba where do you pull these one-liners out from?!

  101. Flaming June
    17 Jun, 2013 – 9:43 pm

    “Meant to post this before. It’s a video from last week’s Ch 4 News. Caspar Bowden has words of wisdom and gives us information on what powers the US are taking and against which the individual has no recourse. He is warning us.”

    Interesting video June.

    I found General Jonathan Shaw a bit of an odd ball; chair-swivelling, overconfident, blasé even and he didn’t know about PRISM even while head Cyber-security at the MOD.

    Why was he on the show?

  102. “you and Habbakuk seemed clearly to be working as a team” — Kibo Noh

    I don’t see any such thing. And I agree with Villager when (s)he says

    “On abuse, i haven’t seen any one else have more abuse showered on him but he’s proven that he can rebut it without enjoining them in their lowered standards.”

    I have not seen 1/10th the abuse from Habbabkuk as I have seen thrown at him/her. Some people here don’t practise what they preach, unfortunately.

    And while flinging the word “troll” around, they ignore the most common piece of advice on the internet:
    “Don’t feed the troll”

    It’s becoming a pain in the neck. And it’s not the fault of Habbabkuk who rarely, if ever, indulges in ad hominem.

    Meanwhile Mary objected to the word “vagina” when its use had nothing to do with her. I mean, come on, for god’s sake …

    And yes, either blockquotes, or italics, or quotation marks, would be useful in deciphering Mary’s comments. [She has taken recently, sometimes, to adding a single apostrophe at the beginning of what I assume are copy and paste items, but frequently she doesn’t “close” with another apostrophe, so it’s useless. One still doesn’t know what’s her and what’s quotation.]

    I can only assume that refusing to use any method of identifying her copy and paste is sheer bloody-mindedness or arrogance. She did tell me she didn’t need “lessons in style” and then said, “so tough”. But unfortunately, she does need such lessons. Or else, she needs to get off her high horse.

    PS And Mary knows how to use italics, as she used them in a recent thread.

    PPS And no, I’m not ‘in cahoots’ with Villager whom I don’t know from Adam. And I only post under one name.

    Here, Ben, take the floor. I’m off to bed.

  103. Kibo, don’t forget to take your pink blankie with you to bed, after having hit us so hard with your limp noodles you really deserve a good nights wallowing in your deep ignorance.

  104. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 1:05 am

    “Here, Ben, take the floor. I’m off to bed.”

    Holy shite, Dreoilin. How’d I get roped into this?

  105. “VIOLENT PROTESTERS TRY TO DISRUPT SUMMIT!” … That’ll be the flavour of the headlines generated by the G8 summit meeting in N. Ireland.

    My partner and I went down to Glen Eagles the last time the G8 was held in Britain. Eventually we got through the roadblocks, police searches and misc. police harassment and joined the protest march. Thousands of us made our way towards the hotel, the route becoming more and more constricted by higher and stronger fences as we approached the heavily guarded entrance gate. There was time for a bit of half-hearted fence rattling and lots of heartfelt slogan chanting around the gate before moving on and letting those coming up behind have their symbolic moments in the sun.

    A hundred metres past the gate, the route took a right down a street which would return us to the starting point where the buses were waiting. On one side of the street was a field which, unlike the rest of the route, had no security fence. It was a beautiful day and rather than return to the start immediately, two or three hundred people had gone into the field to hang around, mostly just sitting on the grass. On the other side of the street, in three of the gardens, were scaffold towers with TV cameras on them, pointed at the field. I was a bit puzzled by this, I couldn’t figure out why the cameras were there rather than in a location which had a view of the main gate where all the action was. It soon became apparent.

    At the far side of the field, from behind some trees, hundreds of police appeared, some on horses. They formed into a long line and began moving towards the protesters in the field. A couple of minutes later, over the rooftops came two fucking great Chinook helicopters, the double-rotored ones you see in Vietnam movies. They made spectacular landings at different points in the field and dozens of police disgorged from them. Police from three directions converged on those absolutely peaceful protesters and waded in with shields and batons. I saw dozens bleeding as they were driven from the field.

    Sure enough, the evening news had spectacular TV footage of the airborne delivery of our bobbies, come from on high to save us all from violent anarchy, all faithfully recorded by those ‘fortuitously’ situated cameras. I’d been part a choreographed illusion. They’d written the script before we arrived, and we all unwittingly played our parts. Never underestimate the bastards.

    And never trust double agent Bob Geldof.

  106. :)

    Sorry, Ben. I know you’re in another time zone. So you could be here for another while. Me, I’m wrecked.

  107. I am not the least bit excited about one-line updowns.

    I have not done nor care to do work on Blunt who I consider by far the least important one of the so called Magnifisant Five, though I will give Blunt a renewed look when my books finally arrive from Sweden.

    And you apparently have not read my article on Wright where I claimed that he was the most important of the Soviet atomic spies.

  108. BrianFujisan

    18 Jun, 2013 - 1:19 am

    The most recent interview with Assad Dated 17th June

    Interviewer: Mr President, Britain and France claim to have clear evidence that chemical weapons have been used. The White House has stated that it possess information to ascertain this claim, which consequently led to the death of 100 to 150 people in one year, in addition to that you have denied the UN investigators access to areas in Syria except for Aleppo. How do you explain the situation?

    President Assad: Let’s begin with the statement from the White House regarding the 150 casualties. Militarily speaking, it is a well-understood notion that during wars, conventional weapons can cause these number of deaths, or even higher, in a single day, not in a year. Weapons of mass destruction generally kill thousands of people at one given time; this high death toll is a primary reason for its use. It is counterintuitive to use chemical weapons to create a death toll that you could potentially reach by using conventional weapons.

    America, France, Britain and some European officials claimed that we have used chemical weapons in a number of areas. Regardless of whether such weapons exist or not, we have never confirmed or denied the possession of these weapons.

    Had they obtained a single strand of evidence that we had used chemical weapons, do you not think they would have made a song and dance about it to the whole world?, then where is the chain of custody that led them to a such result?

    These allegations are ludicrous. The terrorist groups used chemical weapons in Aleppo; subsequently we sent an official letter to the United Nations requesting a formal investigation into the incident. Britain and France blocked this investigation because it would have proven the chemical attacks were carried out by terrorist groups and hence provided conclusive evidence that they (Britain and France) were lying. We invited them to investigate the incident, but instead they wanted the inspectors to have unconditional access to locations across Syria, parallel to what inspectors did in Iraq and delved into other unrelated issues. We are a sovereign state; we have an army and all matters considered classified will never be accessible neither to the UN, nor Britain, nor France. They will only be allowed access to investigate the incident that occurred in Aleppo.

    Therefore, all the claims relating to the use of chemical weapons is an extension of the continuous American and Western fabrication of the actual situation in Syria. Its sole aim is to justify their policies to their public opinion and use the claim as a pretext for more military intervention and bloodshed in Syria

  109. Hazza Babe

    It isn’t just naughty NSA and CCHQ doing the spying is it? I know they get free vehicle, diesel, travel time. The obvious people to spy on Muslims would be Muslims wouldn’t it. But that would be a little bit too haram for your high stinkiness.

    Selling brother Muslims is reserved also for cleverer minds than your own, who use Takfir, which does not mean atonement Mark. It means declaring that your brother Muslim is not a Muslim and cleaning your conscience about selling or harming him.

    Yes , if you can get a bit of tasty muck about someone, you can force them to do any and every kind of major sin/crime. You’re on a winner dude!

    The ordinary police on the beat are fully involved in the intelligence acquisition process, converting minor sexual demeanours like shagging skinny teenagers and looking at porn into blackmail to troll on conscience blogs like this one and bus down to GCHQ offices to work on spying.

    What if you’ve got a war-crime on your MI6/CIA/ex-dictator’s files. You could be turned into a groomer for Zionist Jihad. Sorry Haz, I’m not talking about you here. I’m talking about your minders/friends.

    Muslims routinely spy on other Muslims, to avoid exposure of their own misdemeanours and to recruit/dupe the faithful into helping the neo-con narrative of Muslim terror.

    Haz, I know you love the job, the pay, the camaradie of crime. It’s not everyday you can get paid for insulting respectable, intelligent, caring females. But you know what they say about perfume, it rubs off on you if it’s a nice one, and if it isn’t so nice, it still sticks around.

  110. May I plug my recent article in the Summer Edition of Lobster Magazine?

    “Canada’s Spy Agency gone rogue: Prime Minister Harper couldn’t care less”

    To my mind, the pre-requisites for democracy are elections, a free press/freedom of speech, and rule of law. We seem to have forgotten in Canada that without the rule of law we cannot be a democracy.

  111. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 4:56 am

    On Israeli interference in the Syrian conflict.

    Sapping Assad’s strength
    Israel stirs the pot in Syria

    by Jonathan Cook / June 17th, 2013

  112. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 5:42 am

    MoD serves news outlets with D notice over surveillance leaks

    BBC and other media groups issued with D notice to limit publication of information that could ‘jeopardize national security’

    The Guardian, Monday 17 June 2013 20.54 BST

  113. @GF “What is worse is that these so-called ‘intelligence’ agencies are not only spying – they also make use of the information collected. Maybe one day we shall all hear the more horrifying story about how these intercepted communications can be used and manipulated.

    If you wait until you hear the story, you’re fucked.

  114. Questions for Scottish nationalists here:

    1) will GCHQ, SIS, and MI5 be retained as UK (or Scot-plus-rUK) bodies, allowed to operate in Scotland? You say you don’t know? OK, so are you going to make it an issue? I mean now.

    2) as you know, big business interests control the UK state, including the public authorities in Scotland, which are just as corrupt as all the other public authorities in these islands? Are you going to ensure that this gets undone, somehow? Are you going to make it an issue? I mean now.

    3) never mind ‘Euro’ questions that have saturated the political pages in the media for so long – what about the US military and intelligence presence in Scotland? Are you going to make it an issue? I mean now.

    You know what they say – to change something, you’ve got to recognise it first.

    Over to you.

  115. Kibo Noh

    “To all who make this blog wonderful. Thank you. You have my respect. Goodnight all.”

    You’re welcome. Goodnight and God bless. :)

  116. Clark, good to hear from you again and thanks for including the link to Abu Qatada’s legal costs and why Jack Straw should pay them.

    Put succinctly the question is, and I’ve been asking it too, what is Abu Qatada’s crime?

  117. Before certain individuals suggest that my previous comment is off-topic if they read the link that Clark posted, it questions whether one of the reasons the government want to get rid of Abu Qatada or keep him locked up is a suggestion that he worked for the secret services, which is tangentially bang on.

  118. Spying is not only our duty, it is acting on knowledge gained from spying.

    If the Rotherham rape gangs were spied on more by everyone concerned; there blatant and fragrant avoidance of social justice mayhave been avoided….

    Nosey bastards.

  119. Whhhhheeeeey Agent Cameron has thrown a hissy fit; Cameron wants Syria peace plan, with or without Russia:

    “It’s a clarifying moment to see what kind of commitments the Russians are willing to make in a leading world forum,” said one official before the dinner.

    But if consensus couldn’t be reached it was possible a final statement at the end of the two-day summit might be released without Russia’s input and in the name of the G7 rather than the G8, officials indicated.

    The butter up before the upper cut is delivered by toadies assigned to deliver the “ultimatum”; we will go it alone! The causes beli delivered:

    The West had repeatedly clashed with Russia over how best to end the conflict in Syria with Moscow thwarting attempts to condemn Assad in the United Nations while selling weapons to his army.

    U.S. President Barack Obama sparred with Russia’s Vladimir Putin over how to end the fighting on Monday during an icy encounter at the summit where divisions over the conflict eclipsed the rest of the agenda.

    In other words Putin has not been selling out for some beads, mirrors, and fire water (The high margined Red Indian transactions are still sought, and highly in the vogue), and instead he has taken the line: get stuffed, fuck this for a game of soldiers!

    The desperation of the bunch of ne’er do wells in G something (G20, G8, G7 reminds of; ten green bottles hanging on the wall, nine green ……) is almost palpable, they cannot get the war they want, and the stamping feet and hammering fists on the table episode is fully under way.

    The world domination, has to wait for a while longer yet. The slight miscalculation of the masters of the universe is; The world has grown fucking sick and tired of the perpetual war for the sake of supremacy of a bunch of wankers who never thought beyond the invasions, and smash and grab phase.

    FFS It is more than a decade into the twenty first century, and it seems the belligerents are pissed off their plans for a hundred years war is getting thwarted. Give me fucking strength.

  120. Sofia Zabalotna-Habbercake

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:12 am

    Obama and Putin at G8. The photo says it all.

    Thanks June.

  121. O/T

    Jemand posted a link on another thread to the film which set out to discredit Assange and how it is losing money at the box office.

    Shame! That is, shame on them for ever having produced it.

  122. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:44 am

    O/T?? Perhaps the O/T policemen will rule.

    Karzai takes control over all military operations in Afghanistan. The wily old devil survived to the end.

    There are 97,000 ISAF forces present and the Afghan forces number 320,000. Jonathan Beale BBC, reporting from Kabul, has just said that 3 – 4% of the number desert each month. If he really meant that 10,000+ become deserters, they will all be gone within a year? Unbelievable.

    Slimeball Rasmussen was there to give the official handover. Why weren’t Bush and B.Liar there too to see completion of their flawed project?

    All those lives lost over the last 12 years and all the billions of £s and $s down the drain.

  123. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:53 am

    Cheering news there John about Gibney. Perhaps he would like to experience incarceration himself. There was jeering last night on Sky News when they were reviewing the papers. Ms Botting, Pierce of the Mail and the Mirror’s McGuire were all having a good laugh at Julian and his plight.

    Medialens on the film at the end of last month.

    Gibney has been prolific. Wonder who funded his new flop?

  124. Thanks John Goss regarding the box office failure of Alex Gibney’s film “We Steal Secrets: The Story of Wikileaks”.

    According to the link John posted above, various torrent websites (including have facilitated copying of the film and this is believed to have had an impact on the box office receipts for the film.

    ATTENTION: While there is almost zero chance of you being prosecuted for downloading an unauthorised copy of the film and it is very easy and quick to do so, and you probably wouldn’t pay good money to watch this propaganda anyway, downloading and viewing the film is not encouraged by me, Craig Murray or anybody else here. Visiting the website and viewing the download availability is not illegal so I do encourage anybody to do this for research purposes.

  125. There is a lot of tabloid stuff in the Irish Independent about the Obama clan visit. viz.

    The BBC have a headline
    ‘Irish boy struck dumb by First Lady Michelle Obama’ !!!

    Then I saw this and SCREAMED.

    ’18 June 2013 – The sleepy South Dublin village is used to seeing famous faces, but today is to play host to the world’s most famous family, as the Obamas are expected to take up an invite from Bono and stop off for lunch.’

    in the light of:

    Bono and GM and Monsanto

    Bono and Africa – Monbiot

    Facts about GMOs

    Q. Will Monsanto et al benefit from an enlarged EU/US trade area? Silly question.

  126. Is the Irish press more craven than the British, or just the same?

    The Irish News, a Northern Irish paper, is owned by the Northern Media Group. It has a net worth of ‘net worth’ of £-7,228,610 ???

    Its article on Obama’s speech to the schoolchildren is discussed here.

    The Irish Independent is owned by the O’Reillys AFAIK, previous owners of the Independent in this country.

  127. I remain baffled by the position of progressives with regard to the surveillance state. On the one hand they are appalled. ‘How dare they spy on us,’ they say, as if the saying is enough to hold power to account. On the other hand they then follow up their legitimate criticisms with the caveat — the MASSIVE caveat – that ‘well, I understand that we need a surveillance system if we are to protect citizens, so we must temper our complaints.’ Not once do they realise that this equivocating attitude ALWAYS allows the thugs in through the back door. It enshrines the tentacles of the secret state in law.

    Now, if we are really serious about tackling the current junta that is in power, and if we are serious in aiming to reform the system for the better, then we must actively destroy the surveillance system as it currently exists. We must move towards open government, open media, encourage full and frank disclosures from whistleblowers, and rigorously define the legal parameters — leaving no uncertainty behind — of spying. Under no circumstances must we fall back on the idea that millions of pounds must be spent on shoring up the apparatus of the surveillance state. State secrecy should not just be limited, it should be defunded. Spying networks currently in force should be disbanded and investigated by the public. Secret courts should only be established if it can be proven — beyond reasonable doubt — that the revelation of intelligence ‘will’ harm the nation as a whole. We can start by setting up the equivalent of the Church Committee in the US, and by undertaking a major public investigation into illegal spying activity. RIPA must be revisited.

    Enough with the double standards. The security state is almost always against our interests. We must wake up to this fact, and fast.

  128. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 11:33 am

    @ Gawain

    “The security state is almost always against our interests.”

    An interesting thought. Would you care to expand on it and when so doing set out when you think the security state is IN our interests?

    Thank you.

  129. “Russia and China, having learned their lesson, are protesting Washington’s assault on Syria that Washington pretends is a “civil war.” If Syria falls, Russia and China know that Iran is next.

    Iran is Russia’s underbelly, and for China Iran is 20% of its energy imports. Both Russian and Chinese governments know that after Iran falls, they are next. There is no other explanation for Washington surrounding Russia with missile bases and surrounding China with naval and air bases.

    Both Russia and China are now preparing for the war that they see as inevitable. Washington’s crazed, demented drive for world hegemony is bringing unsuspecting Americans up against two countries with hydrogen bombs whose combined population is five times the US population. In such a conflict everyone dies.”

  130. I take an interest in the world around me
    You gather intelligence
    He she or it spies.

  131. John Goss, I dare you to ask that question – What crime has Abu Qatada committed? – on the Geurrdian’s CIF. It could well get you moderated and you’ll certainly receive lots of rather unsavoury yet non-specific replies. I’ve been asking the same question for some time now and can only conclude that like another chap who was born in Bethlehem, he is seen as a threat to the ruling elite with what he has to say.

  132. Paul the Questionner

    18 Jun, 2013 - 12:32 pm

    I have serious doubts about your expertise if you really think Russsia or China are standing out for principles of International law to protect civilians and democracy in Syria. They are just afraid of losing multimillion weapons contracts. Weapons and monies that’s what they are standing out for.

  133. Abu Qatada may have worked for our intelligence services. It is time for white people to stand up for Muslims who are being held without trial under the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001 and then the Protection of Terrorism Act 2005. Muslims, understandably, are concerned that if they protest they may likewise be wrongfully imprisoned. I have just raised the following FOI to find out why Abu Qatada has been made by the media, and Theresa May, to look like a criminal. There is a Follow button if anyone wants to keep informed of the progress of this FOI request.

  134. Villager
    18 Jun, 2013 – 12:52 am

    “Howdy there Guano, nice to have you back with us again! I was getting worried that Fisons had got you bagged up and that you’d been spread over a field somewhere.”

    LOL Habba where do you pull these one-liners out from?!

    I count that as three lines in two sentences. Fatuus vicum.

  135. Yanks, when not debasing & torturing the very meaning of words, also like to corrupt rational logic itself;

    “it says it does not have the evidence to try but are too dangerous to release”

    US reveals Guantanamo ‘indefinite detainees

  136. So…a D Notice was slapped on the BBC and other broadcasters (today’s Guardian). I’m assuming the terms of a D Notice mean that you cannot even talk about a D Notice? I ask that because there is no mention of reporting restrictions on the BBC.

    One thing that has occurred to me is the way in which the BBC have reported the Snowden leaks. The corporation has either a) parroted what is already in the public domain or b) “top lined” the official reaction to the leaks from Hague, Cameron et al. At no time, so far as I’m aware, has the BBC conducted its own investigation into the leaks, covering the broad nature of the 197 reports generated by Prism, for instance. Perhaps this was part of an assurance they gave the MoD when the D Notice was issued — the Beeb could hardly ignore the story, after all. Or perhaps they just don’t have the staff to devote to such a trivial matter…

    I feel one of my mantras coming on: The BBC is an arm of the state — don’t trust it.

  137. @Doug,

    Credit where credit is due; the chief troll has no doubt been rewarded by his handlers for getting the some of the regular posters here to support him, but responding about him to his new fan club, is the same as engaging with the troll clown itself; best to ignore in both situations.

  138. Perhaps I can add a smile that is on topic

    From Melbourne

    WHISTLEBLOWER – feat. mc Edward Snowden [RAP NEWS 19]

  139. Abu Qatada may have worked for our intelligence services.

    Sure as heck Omar Bakri Mohammed worked for the SIS. Also the little weirdo who has been droned in Yemen not so long ago.

    Further, added to the list of the new concentration camp inmates ought to be Abu Hamza, who has had his prosthetic hands taken off him, because the jailers have found his hooks could be “dangerous”, and he is finding it difficult to; feed, wash, etc himself. (as per wapo gloatingly).

    These people along with 500,000 other Muslims (as per wapo) are spending their lives in the new concentration camps dotted across the planet, whilst no one gives a shit. We all are good “Citizens” now.

  140. Dreoilin, thanks for the Rap News – pretty well done, I thought.

  141. I think that Abu Qatada’s problems with Britain’s security state go back to the 3/11 bombings in Madrid when he, a source for Scarlett’s MI6, was talking to co-religionists there who often came to Britain, and this persuaded the Brits so much that it was going to occur round London that they persuaded Aznar’s ( remember that jerk?) people not to worry about an attack there!

    When they occurred there, during an election campaign, Aznar was toast.

    Ben, you might find in my file a takeoff about it in Private Eye Letter from no. 10 style worth a read and even a laugh about the terrible tragedy.

    As for me asking The Guardian about it, I have long given up on the process since my comments were always pre-moderated, and rarely posted. So much for comments being free!

  142. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 2:44 pm

    Should Joanna Gosling, a presenter on the BBC News Channel a) declare an interest when she is commenting on political affairs as she was earlier today or b) be doing the job anyway in the light that her husband is one of Agent Cameron’s spin doctors?

    ‘Craig Oliver, the Prime Minister’s embattled Director of Communications, has been told by his friends to put his family before his job, lest his marriage go the way of other Downing Street denizens. Craig is married to the BBC News presenter Joanna Gosling, with whom he has three children. The unrelenting 24/7 pressure of his Downing Street job spinning for the PM is, Craig himself admits, “a lot of stress”…

    Ironically David Cameron pledged in opposition “to make the UK the most family-friendly country in Europe” yet has seen the marriages of his former press secretary Gabby Bertin as well as that of his “gatekeeper” Kate Fall break up. Kate is the chillaxing PM’s hardworking deputy chief of staff. It looks like Osborne will need to find money in the budget to hire more staff to lighten the workload if Downing Street is to really be a family-friendly workplace.’

  143. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 2:47 pm

    Also on GF, Mercer declares a payment from Alastair Andrews Communications. A fake name, a fake address and a fake job are all on the register apparently.

  144. Just glanced through The Guardian’s comment thread on its interview with Snowden, and it is really alarming with posts being removed because they did not abide by the rules, many having notices to other posts by the poster without the original one being there, and, of course like in my case with it, we know nothing about the ones which were ruled out beforehand.

    Is this just the biggest part of the data-mining operation by NSA/GCHQ to locate the real, probable troublemakers, thanks to the newspaper’s unprecedented assistance?

    Too bad that Orwell isn’t around to exploit the new Big Brother developments!

  145. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 2:58 pm

    It’s supposed to be the G8 so why are there ten of them? Because they invited Herman and Jose to join in.

    Wonder what Terry Fuckwit said that caused it to be removed?

  146. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 3:02 pm

    Yes Trowbridge, very handily for GCHQ/NSA etc a comment trail is collected.

    eg Terry Fuckwit

  147. technicolour

    18 Jun, 2013 - 3:12 pm

    sweet rap :) thanks dreoilin

  148. technicolour

    18 Jun, 2013 - 3:15 pm

    and John Goss, thanks too – agree.

  149. Macky, more than half of the Guantanamo detainees held in permanent detention are Yemenis though two have them have died there. The poet, Adnan Latif, was from Yemen. He died in Guantanamo having spent more than a third of his short life in the merciless clutches of the US military.

  150. Just think go this poster, say Mohamad Qatada and using the user name Silent Sam) posting this response to The Guardian interview with Edward Snowden:

    Silent Sam: “Snowden is just another false hero who should be killed like all the West’s phony heroes.”

    Mohamad Qatada is related somehow to Abu, and the security services have long wanted to get him in any kind of way not only because of the 3/11 fiasco but more importantly because they so over-reacted to the tragedy in Operation Crevice that they converted some of them who frequented that internet cafe in Crawley, especially those around Leeds, that they carried out the 7/7 bombings.

    The Guardian’s moderators pre-moderate Silent Sam’s post, and hope that he will add to it, and he does, posting something like this:

    Silent Sam: “It is just IT types like Snowden at GCHQ who could have stopped the 3/11 attacks in Madrid if they had not been so interested in setting up my third cousin, twice removed, Abu Qadada.”

    This post is also held back until he adds ones that are less inflammatory and have elicited sympathic responses from others. Then The Guardian posts the first response, and others which have attracted others, and have gained approval from many unknown ones – people whose identity can easily be determined, giving MI5 people much to work with.

    I’ll think about doing a much bigger post about the possibilities that GO would think worthy of note.

  151. Sorry it should have read “two of them (Afghanis) in the list died there”.

  152. Excuse the opening confusion of the previous post – have GO on the brain this morning.

  153. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 3:53 pm

    Why the secrecy? Has this something to do with the Tommy Sheridan case?

  154. doug scorgie

    18 Jun, 2013 - 4:46 pm

    18 Jun, 2013 – 12:54 pm


    “Credit where credit is due; the chief troll has no doubt been rewarded by his handlers for getting the some of the regular posters here to support him, but responding about him to his new fan club, is the same as engaging with the troll clown itself; best to ignore in both situations.”

    Sorry Macky but I don’t know what you are on about.

    It would help me and others here if you, and others, referenced time and date) the posts that you refer to.

    @Doug, just doesn’t do it.

  155. Just had another post about The Guardian and its chief spook David Leigh scrubbed by secret government’s manipulation of security as I looked before posting to make sure that the CAPTCHA check was right, but it still disappeared.

    Looks like my posting days here are numbered.

  156. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 4:51 pm

    Trowbridge; Is this the one?

    Why America’s NSA and Britain’s GCHQ Had Gareth Williams Assassinated

  157. Dreoilin 18 Jun, 2013 – 1:03 pm
    Nice RapNews link. It’s good to see young people fighting mainstream propaganda inventively.

    Re; Afghanistan. Apologies if you’ve seen this but here’s a film about the preparedness of the afghan forces for nato withdrawal.

    This Is What Winning Looks Like:

  158. @John Goss, re Guantanamo, I would have thought that the US max security prisons would be more than enough to act as a deterrent, even to those who embrace death, for what’s worse than the living death torture of life-long solitary confinement, but perhaps Gitmo is used as a frightener; check out the interregation scene at about the 7.30 minute mark in this;

    @Doug, nevermind; forget that I ever addressed you.

  159. No, Ben, though it is worth reading for the background to the Snowden Affair.

    I was talking about a letter that Denis Thatcher might have written after the 3/11 bombings.

    It’s called Emperor Antony Has No Clothes, as I recall, and appeared on codshit at the end of March, 2004.

    Really worth a read, even at this late date.

  160. Pretty much agree Craig. Link below to my own blog post on why overthrowing Assad by force will just lead to continuing sectarian civil war and atrocities and strengthen Al Qa’ida, as in Iraq and Libya – and also a power sharing peace plan based partly on Lebanon to add to Kofi Annan’s 6 point plan

  161. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 6:47 pm

    @ Flaming June

    “Should Joanna Gosling, a presenter on the BBC News Channel a) declare an interest when she is commenting on political affairs as she was earlier today or b) be doing the job anyway in the light that her husband is one of Agent Cameron’s spin doctors?”

    The answer to these questions is
    a) no
    b) yes.

    Thank you for your information on, and link to, various peoples’ marital problems.

    The relevance to the subject of this thread is obvious.

  162. Glanced at the coverage The Guardian provided Genera Keith Alexander testified before a House Committee, and the newspaper allowed most suspect posts to appear, contrary to its own rules.

    Take the three comments by Westernworldrulz where he advocates someone European taking US nuclear weapons away by force, and goes on immediately with two more most provocative posts about living anywhere else, even Turkey, and still wanting marching on Washington to make sure that changes occur. The stuff is so good that The Guardian did replace the first post with a notice about the two others.

    Westernworldrulz is either a Western European troublemaker its data-miners could be investigating or a provocateur to produce real ones like him.

    I urge posters to steer clear of what The Guardian is helping unless you don,t care about being killed, possibly going to prison or just don’t give a damn. I’m too old to really worry about it.

  163. Didn’t read the last post over before posting it – answering an inquiry at the back door about a wounded man on the run in the neighborhood, and wanting to know if I know anything about it! – so there are two errors in: General Alexander, and the paper did NOT replace Westernworldrulz’s first post with a notice about the other two.

  164. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 7:17 pm

    @ Doug Scorgie :

    18 Jun, 2013 – 12:52 am

    “Howdy there Guano, nice to have you back with us again! I was getting worried that Fisons had got you bagged up and that you’d been spread over a field somewhere.”

    LOL Habba where do you pull these one-liners out from?!

    I count that as three lines in two sentences. Fatuus vicum.”

    Doug, you’ll recall that on several occasions in the past I’ve advised you to invest in a good dictionary.

    I regret to note that you haven’t followed this excellent advice. Had you done so – I would again recommend the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (2 vols) – you would have been able to look up the word ‘one-liner’ and find the following definition :
    “a short joke or witty remark”.

    You see? No mention of the number of lines required.

    Looking on the positive side, though, your post did make it clear that you are able to count at least up to three. Keep it up!

  165. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!)

    18 Jun, 2013 - 7:44 pm

    @ The Scourge and Villager :

    As an earnest of my magnanimous character and forgiving spirit, I offer the following one-liner in accordance with the Doug Scorgie definition (“a one-liner can have only one line”) :

    “LOL Habba where do you pull these one-liners out from?!”

    “I don’t know, but, mutatis mutandis, not whence Guano issued”.

  166. Who’s the current Director of the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre?

    JTAC is a semi-detached agency, based in Thames House, the MI5 HQ, but with an autonomous structure. Its staff include people from SIS and GCHQ, and it’s called an “interagency”. It’s responsible to the director of MI5 but not part of the structure of MI5.

    It’s not to be confused with the Office for Security and Counter-Terrorism, which is part of the Home Office, headed by Charles Farr, formerly of SIS, who has ruffled lots of feathers.

    A former head of JTAC was Mary Calam.

    JTAC decides on threat levels, and mirrors the US National Counterterrorism Center, except that in true British style, it’s more secretive. For example, it doesn’t run a public database akin to the NCTC’s Worldwide Incidents Tracking System. And it seems to keep the identity of the person in charge pretty quiet too.

    Anyway, who’s the head of JTAC now?

  167. According to David Attenborough millions upon millions of cockroaches live entirely on nutrients brought into caves from the outside world by bats and deposited as guano. Saves Habba venturing out into the real world.

  168. doug scorgie

    18 Jun, 2013 - 8:37 pm

    Flaming June
    18 Jun, 2013 – 3:53 pm

    Mr Coulson was detained at his London home in May this year and driven more than 400 miles by officers from Police Scotland to Glasgow.

    I wonder if it is only the English cops that do “arrest by appointment”.

  169. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 8:55 pm

    Doug :) but as Guido Fawkes says

    Guido Fawkes ✔ @GuidoFawkes

    Be careful what you say – you don’t want to be on Contempt of Court – Andy Coulson %$#@!+&%$#@@!$%&#@@+@$%%@
    Careful now…


    Anyone know anything about this Orwellian sounding set up?
    CSARN – City Security and Resilience Networks. I see a few senior members of police forces in the lists of speakers.

    Much jargon.

  170. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:03 pm

    David Swanson writes about ‘Drones for Christ’.

    Drones for Christ
    by David Swanson | July 2013

    How Jerry Falwell’s Liberty U.—the world’s largest Christian university—became an evangelist for drone warfare.

    ‘I asked Young about drones’ most common use today, namely war fighting. “Is that kind of drone use Christian?” I asked.

    “I can only offer my perspective as a Christian,” he replied. “UAS are like any other aerial vehicle that can be used for a variety of missions including law enforcement, aerial surveillance, search and rescue, and crop spraying as well as for military reasons. As a former military combat aviator, I believe that UAS can be employed just like a manned aircraft and that there should not be a distinction between the two.”

    A brochure promoting the Liberty School of Aeronautics features a photo of Dan McCready, First Lieutenant USAF, who is quoted, “Since I was very young, I’ve dreamed about becoming a pilot in the U.S. Air Force. Liberty’s aviation program gave me the opportunity to make my dream a reality, helping me to realize that I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.”’

  171. Shame that you’re promulating the party line that spying is a political activity. It isn’t, it is simply the enablement of theft through obtaining inside information and similar.

  172. Is that Evening Times article correct? Wasn’t it last May – 2012 – that he was driven 400 miles to be questioned at Govan Police Station, Glasgow. In which case of course it was officers from what was then Strathclyde Police, not Police Scotland. Why would he be driven 400 miles by the police to attend court, they’re not providing taxi or chauffeur services are they? I suspect (and the Evening Times have considerable woeful form for inaccuracy) this online article was done by someone sent along to work there, for JSA money plus bus fares.

  173. Now The Guardian has posters responding to that war criminal, ultimate scum bag John Bolton.

    The spooks must be going bonkers with all the leads it’s generating.

    Should change the discussion section to this: Comment Is Likely Jail!

  174. Flaming June

    18 Jun, 2013 - 9:34 pm

    Cryptonym The BBC say the journey was in May last year.

  175. I thought so ty Flaming J, f-ing amateurs.

  176. Just in:

    “The US is to open direct peace talks with the Taliban after more than 10 years of war in Afghanistan, senior White House officials announce.”

    I wonder why they didn’t have direct peace talks ten years ago.

    Strange that.

  177. It might not all be bad news. At least this is promising because the organ of government (BBC) has broadcast it.

  178. For comedy value Marko Attila Hoare (yes that’s his real name) on the Guardian’s Comment Is Free arguing that anyone who’s against arming the rebels is pro-Assad, claiming Hezbollah carried out the attack on Israeli tourists in Bulgaria despite Al Qa’ida claiming responsibility for it – and well, too many other factual errors to repeat again (i posted a comment under the article on them)

  179. Re Flaming June’s comment re Guardian Caption competition (18 Jun, 2013 – 2:58 pm), I like the entry:

    If you all stand on a black plinth I can photoshop the rest of Disneyland in later.

    The photograph was taken by Suzanne Plunkett, her who took (only one) iconic image in NYC on 11/9/2001…..

  180. Should I be pinching myself?

    G8 statement on Syria includes pledges to:

    ” Increase commitment to humanitarian aid.

    “Maximize the diplomatic pressure” to bring all sides to the table as soon as possible.

    Back a “transitional governing body” for Syria.

    “Learn the lessons of Iraq” and maintain Syria’s public institutions.

    Work together to “rid Syria of terrorists and extremists” — a new commitment by the G8, Cameron said.

    Condemn the use of chemical weapons “by anyone” in Syria, and allow for a UN probe, also new Cameron said.

    Support a new non-sectarian government in Syria. ”


    Wouldn’t you just love to have been a fly on the wall?

    How do we hold the rogues to it?

    Goodnight All.

  181. Does seem like a remarkably reasonable and balanced outcome, if a bit vague. I suspect it’s because Putin has pretty much hinted at World War Three if NATO tries to do a Libya in Syria (not that Putin is any great humanitarian or within a million miles of being one)

  182. “There is no proof that the Syrian government used chemical weapons, Russian President Vladimir Putin said during the G8 summit. Some of the G8 countries share this view, he added.”

    (but he doesn’t name names)

  183. So the G8, including Putin, backs toppling the legitimate Syrian government?

    This is a dangerous precedent. If Assad can be so easily shoved aside then Betty Windsor better watch out. There’ll be dancing in the streets of Stolen-land tonight.

  184. “A situation which is now out of control”

    “Before you dismiss the possibility of a 90% drop in the stock market as unrealistic, consider Wiedemer’s credentials.”

  185. Flaming June

    19 Jun, 2013 - 6:50 am

    Do read this interview with Assad by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. It is long but the clarity of his thinking and language illustrated within puts our lot in the shade. Compared to him, Hague is a like one of those concrete garden gnomes wearing a pointed red cap.

    “We Will Always Be Independent and Free” President al-Assad


    I see the Obama clan has now descended on Germany.

    Obama may get different reception in Berlin than in ’08

    Michelle will visit this panorama created inside a converted gasometer with Merkel’s husband, Prof Sauer.

  186. Flaming June

    19 Jun, 2013 - 7:10 am

    Pepe Escobar –

    June 18 , 2013
    Obama’s weapons-for-peace program

  187. Listen up, Obama, Cameron and the French bloke:

    “Northern Ireland leaders to G8: Sending arms to Syria bad idea”

  188. Assad link – thanks, June.

    An intelligent man who has thought through the issues in detail and doesn’t evade questions. What’s he doing in charge? I begin to see why the shambolic oafs pretending to run this country are so scared of him.

  189. So who is the Director of the Joint Terrorism Analysis Centre, which reports to the head of MI5?

    Respected posters, do any of you know? :-)

  190. Flaming June

    19 Jun, 2013 - 9:16 am

    Israel as ‘Insight Vacations’ see it. No mention of Occupied Palestine.

  191. Flaming June

    19 Jun, 2013 - 9:29 am

    Obama is a walking disaster. Another clanger has been dropped.

    19 June 2013 Last updated at 09:25

    Afghanistan suspends talks after US-Taliban move

    Afghanistan has suspended talks under way in Kabul on a bilateral security agreement with the US.

    A spokesman for President Hamid Karzai said the decision was taken in protest over inconsistencies in proposed US direct talks with the Taliban.

    The row centres on the name given to the Taliban office, which opened in Qatar on Tuesday, the spokesman said.

    US-Afghan talks are to determine the nature of US military presence after foreign troops withdraw in 2014.

    “There is a contradiction between what the US government says and what it does regarding Afghanistan peace talks,” President Karzai’s spokesman Aimal Faizi said.


  192. Thanks for the revealing interview with Assad, June. The Golan is unprotected and Russia has volunteered to replace the previous UN contingent that has gone awol.

    The Golan is a potential flash point as much as South Lebanon, but Sidon and Tripoli are already flaring up with sectarian strife, so who needs false flag events, a small incident can set the whole lot off.

  193. From the horse’s mouth, so to speak.

    “One of these lessons is that ignorance is the worst enemy of societies and forms the basis for extremism.”

    Hats off to ARD for allowing us the chance to hear what “the enemy” thinks and make up our own minds.

    And thanks June for the link.


    Can anyone point me to a similar quality in-depth interview with a rebel leader or gulf state sponsor?

  194. “There is a contradiction between what the US government says and what it does”


  195. Good article on Syria, explaining what it’s all about, and why 100,000 have to die:

    Same old. Same old.

    “Qatar’s North Dome gas field, in the middle of the Persian Gulf, is one with Iran’s South Pars field, and together they constitute the largest gas field in the world. In 2011, Assad rejected an ultimatum from Qatar and instead agreed with Iran and Iraq to build a new Iran-Syria pipeline which would transfer natural gas to the Mediterranean from Iran’s South Pars natural gas field rather than Qatar’s North Dome.

    (We should recall that similar challenges to American petrodollar hegemony were made by Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi, with fatal consequences to them and their regimes.)”

  196. “The United States has deployed 1,500 Marines with advanced arms and military equipment to Yemen, says a Yemeni military official …

    The official also said that American forces usually enter the country in small groups, but the recent large deployment could be in preparation for a possible imminent incident in the region.

    According to the Washington-based think tank, the New America Foundation, the US drone attacks in Yemen almost tripled in 2012.”

  197. Craig: May I suggest Susan Lindauers book, of her time working in the UN, spying for the CIA around the 9/11 time and the subsequent invasion of Iraq.

  198. HM Government e-petition
    Save UK Justice

    Responsible department: Ministry of Justice

    The MOJ should not proceed with their plans to reduce access to justice by depriving citizens of legal aid or the right to representation by the Solicitor of their choice.

    Another seven thousand signatures will force a parliamentary debate.

  199. Middle East Reality Check

    MERC: Australia Post issues Israeli propaganda stamps
    June 19, 2013

    Editor’s note: Unbelievable is what comes to mind about this latest effort to conflate Australia’s Palestine Campaign with Israel. Not only is this a deliberate obfuscation of history – Israel didn’t even exist in 1917 – but it is insulting to the memory of Palestinians who were terrorised into leaving their city Beersheba when the newly-created Israel captured it in 1948 and who have never been allowed to return to their homes.

    The Palestine Campaign of 1917 saw the celebrated charge of the 4th Light Horse Brigade on the unsuspecting Turks. It was a battle that turned the tide of that campaign and led to the subsequent end of Ottoman rule in Palestine. Beersheba at the time had a population of some 4,000 Palestinians and was described by the New York Times of 1 November 1917 as an “ancient Palestine city, having much strategic value”. During the British Mandate, it remained an administrative centre providing work and services for the Palestinians living there. It was never intended to become part of Israel under the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Gaza is barely 50 kilometres away from Beersheba and endured some of the heaviest fighting when ANZACs and Palestinian soldiers fought the Turks. Now, the Palestinians are prisoners of Israel – not only in Gaza, but in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, while a theme park has been set up in memory of the Australian soldiers in what Israel now calls Be’er Sheva. The Pratt Foundation in Australia commissioned a statue to commemorate what many regard as the most significant victory of Australian military history and our Governor-General travelled to Israel for the unveiling ceremony. The irony of it all is that the Israelis living there had for decades been totally ignorant of the site’s significance and wilfully neglected its heritage, so much so, that in 2008, the Australian government was forced to order an investigation after the precious water wells, which the Australian soldiers had so bravely fought to secure, were found to be in a shocking state of disrepair and a virtual rubbish tip.

    War memorials everywhere show Palestine etched in stone. Graves in Gaza honour our soldiers. But even more telling, are the nearly six million Palestinians who live in that land under Israel’s brutal occupation and siege and some 5 million refugees who are waiting to return home. They will not forget. It will take more than Governor-Generals, statues and stamps to expunge the history and memories of the ANZAC-Palestine connection, try as Israel might.

    You can take a stand by refusing to purchase these particular stamps.

    (illustration of the stamps plus more editorial)


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