There had never been an Ukrainian nation state until the last twenty five years. The boundaries of the old Soviet Socialist Republics were never intended to define nation states, and indeed were in part designed to guard against forming potentially dangerous cohesive units. The Ukrainians are a nation and f they wish are certainly entitled to a state, but that its borders must be those defined, and changed several times, by the Soviet Union for the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic is not axiomatic.
It is not true that there is a general desire for secession for Ukraine on the linguistic and broadly West East split. It is true that key political attitudes do correlate closely to the linguistic split, with Russian speakers identifying with the ousted government, and favouring closer ties with Russian over closer ties with the West, while Ukrainian speakers overwhelmingly favour EU integration. But that does not translate into a general desire by the Russian speakers to secede from a Ukraine that goes the other way. The key to this is that two thirds of Russian speaking Ukrainian nationals view themselves as ethnically Ukrainian, not Russian. Only a third of Russian speakers, a sixth of the general population, regard themselves as ethnically Russian. It does appear to be true that among those who view themselves as ethnically Russian, there is a significant desire for union with Russia, and that there is probably a majority in some Eastern provinces for that idea, probably including Crimea. But the area involved is far smaller than the linguistically Russian area.
Ethnicity is of course a less tangible concept than linguistic identity, and has little claim to objective reality, particularly in an area with such turbulent history of population movement. But it is futile to pretend it has no part in the idea of a nation state, and is best regarded as a cultural concept of self-identification.
The historical legacy is extremely complex. Kievan Rus was essential to the construction of Russian identity, but for Russia to claim Kiev on that basis would be like France claiming Scandinavia because that is where the Normans came from. Kievan Rus was destroyed and or displaced by what historical shorthand calls the Mongal hordes, almost a millennium ago. Ukrainian history is fascinating, the major part of it having been at various times under Horde, Lithuanian, Polish, Krim Tartar, Galician, Cossack Federation, Russian and Soviet rule.
Still just within living memory, one in seven Ukrainians, including almost the entire intellectual and cultural elite, was murdered by Stalin. An appalling genocide. Like Katyn a hundred times over. That is the poisonous root of the extreme right nationalism that has rightly been identified as a dangerous element in the current revolution. Pro-western writers have largely overlooked the fascists and left wing critics have largely overlooked Stalin. His brutal massacre and ethnic cleansing of the Krim Tartar is also relevant – many were forcibly deported to Uzbekistan, and I have heard the stories direct.
Having served in the British Embassy in Poland shortly after the collapse of the Soviet Union, I regard as blinkered those who deny that membership of the European Union would be a massive advantage to Ukraine. In 1994 there was very little difference in the standard of living in both countries – I saw it myself. The difference is now enormous, and that really means in the standard of living of ordinary working people. Poland’s relationship with, and eventual membership of, the European Union has undoubtedly been a key factor. Those who wish Ukraine instead to be linked to the raw commodity export economy of Putin’s Russia are no true friends of the working people. Ukraine’s accidental boundaries include, of course, the great formerly Polish city of Lvov.
Ukraine is an accidental state and its future will be much brighter if it is a willing union. It needs not just Presidential and Parliamentary elections, but also a federal constitution and a referendum on whether any of its provinces would prefer to join Russia. That can give an agreed way forward to which Russia might also subscribe, and defuse the current crisis. It would suit the long term interest of both the Ukraine and the West. I fear however that the politicians will be too macho to see it.
sorry uzbek; I posted in error. ” It could be a chance for millions of people to associate themselves with whom they want to be associated and not with whom they had to be associated by brutal force throughout more than 7 centuries.”
That’s exactly why we immediately think of Western influence as self-serving even when it is spun as foreign aid, or diplomatic efforts. The History makes us so. We wish them well, if this is a popular uprising.
And please include links you feel give the perspective balance.
Off topic, sorry if already posted
Deny, Disrupt, Deceive, Degrade.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/
How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations
oh and good evening to all
Ben
What WAS your point? Assuming there was one, of course.
Habbabkuk (and Uzbek in the UK);
when I came to this blog a few years ago, I’d never heard of Operation Ajax in Iran in 1953:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax
I had no idea about Diego Garcia. I didn’t know that Saddam Hussein was “one of ours”, I didn’t know about CIA death squads in South America. And on and on and on. I only learned about some of those things from Craig; many others I encountered in comments posted here, or by following links branching from them. I look at the world in a very different way now. And yes, my opinion of the “West” has fallen immensely as a consequence.
Of course I over-reacted for a while; maybe you think I still suffer from that. But commenters here are suspicious of the motives of the Western power bloc, and I for one can’t blame them. That’s why I ask you to educate them kindly, when necessary.
Two things seems very likely. Where there are armed riots in places that matter in the West vs. Russia power struggle, Western Special Ops may very well be involved, and if so, we’re unlikely to see concrete evidence of it for decades.
Uzbek in the UK, I’d be very glad to learn more of your thoughts on the current situation in Ukraine.
“I struggle to discover anything more than superficial information,…”
_____________
which never seems to stop you from sounding off about this, that and the next thing. And all that through a haze, darkly 🙂
Habbabkuk wrote
“I should be interested to hear your thoughts on the alleged rôle of the West in this revolution and on the alleged intentions of the West.”
Have a look at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957. I think the first phrase “I think we’re in play” sort of gives the game away.
The initial opposition demonstrations, however, failed to force Yanukovych to resign. At this point, paramilitary fascist militias were mobilized to intensify the conflict and propel the country to the brink of civil war. The leading role was played by the so-called Right Sector, whose masked militants, equipped with helmets, batons, fire bombs and firearms soon dominated the center of Kiev, carrying out fierce attacks on the security forces. News reports estimate their number in Kiev alone to be between 2,000 and 3,000.
The conservative Die Welt paper termed the Right Sector an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”. Time magazine, which interviewed its leader Dmitry Yarosh, writes that their “ideology borders on fascism and it enjoys support only from Ukraine’s most hard-line nationalists”. Many of its members are former soldiers or fought in the conflict on the side of Azerbaijan, and in Chechnya and South Ossetia against Russia.
When she spoke at Independence Square after her release from prison, former prime minister and Fatherland party leader Yulia Tymoshenko made a series of overtures to the fascist militias. She expressly thanked Right Sector for its “contribution to the revolution.” The new interior minister promised that the “Self-Defense Forces from Maidan” would be integrated into the new order.
This strengthening of the fascists would not be possible without the systematic support of the media and the main political parties in Europe and the US. Liberal newspapers such as the New York Times and the Süddeutsche Zeitung have produced a deluge of propaganda portraying events in Ukraine as a “democratic revolution”, glossing over the role of fascists and glorifying the coup.
The above is from – And the full piece @
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/25/pers-f25.html
The west Involvement…in Stirring the shit… Nope, Nosiree Don’t believe a word of it being recorded Fact – in Photo, and Audio, and print ( emails )
Some nice cosy fotos, and Propaganda video, can be found @
http://scgnews.com/washingtons-role-in-the-ukrainian-coup-how-it-may-spin-out-of-control
Macky
“..as the visceral language normally employed is very hardly ever used by the those labeled “Anti-Western””
_________________
You’re thinking of words like “pure evil”, “fascists” and “bastards”, are you?
” an “informal association of right-wing and neo-fascist splinter groups”
Sounds like the Tea Party with rabies, Brian. I call the TP in the US the ‘tail that wags the dog’ because they are the squeaky wheel, and the greatest clamor always receives the first and most attention.
Ben
In the last week I have read hundreds if not thousand different articles, views on various forums on the subject. Having few old connections in various parts of Ukraine and knowing few Ukrainians here added to that. I am afraid that as it often happens in situations like this there is no one single unbiased and completely trustworthy source. Even knowing Mr Murray’s integrity first hand to me even some of his own blogs seems biased sometimes. Our opinions are always biased, even when we try to be the most honest. It owes to who we are, how much we earn, where we live, where we pray, which language we speak, which colour is our skin, etc.
Therefore, researching as many sources as possible (and not only the ones that you feel comfortable reading just because they point out to western meddling), researching history (especially if it goes back to over 700 years) you might form more or less unbiased (as much as it could be unbiased in real terms) opinion.
Pykrete
“Habbabkuk wrote
“I should be interested to hear your thoughts on the alleged rôle of the West in this revolution and on the alleged intentions of the West.””
__________________
the “your” refers to Craig. Are you suffering under the delusion that you are Craig?
“Our opinions are always biased” So stipulated. All perception is selective, and humans excel at sectoring their memory banks.
“Therefore, researching as many sources as possible (and not only the ones that you feel comfortable reading just because they point out to western meddling)”
The only info I’m uncomfortable with is one-source stories, or one outlet reporting which cannot be corroborated with some objective sourcing. Give me your best link.
Ben, Dude, you hit the jtrig sock puupet in the knee with your rubber stalin hammer. Even Uzbek, a reasonable fellow, went a bit too far when he credited uncle joe with all the background of crisis in Ukraine.
Below is a much more salient beef of actual human Ukranians. It’s also the reason why Ukraine gained independence, and the reason why Western Ukraine will not be getting into the EU.
http://www.chernobyl.info/Default.aspx?tabid=130&map=58_en
Putin’s assessment of the situation is probably very similar to Craig’s. Putin is, after all, the world’s most influential advocate for the UN Charter and the human right of self-determination.
Uzbek (and others)
One should be aware that the link provided by Fujisan:
“The above is from – And the full piece @
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/02/25/pers-f25.html”
is to the “World Socialist Web Site” – published by the “International Committee of the Fourth International”.
Need I say more?
Clark
Similar to you I learnt a lot since I started reading this blog. Even when I in most cases disagree with what is said by most of the people here, I still find it useful to read something that is different from what I think. I have even changed my opinion on some matters – invasion in Iraq is one of them.
And not just this blog. For instance after reading ‘Myth of American Diplomacy’ by Walter Hixton (I hope I spelt this right) I have changed my opinion about American Mondernity, American Civil War and Manifest Destiny.
I am keen to learn and change (unlike some narrow-minded people on this very blog) but what makes me so angry is when people with (what it seems to be) very limited knowledge are making very narrow-minded conclusions on issues which are so important and vital for some many other people. It makes me even more angry when these other people lost millions lives to the ones who are so much supported by (these narrow-minded) people on this blog.
Kulak
I am surprised you have lived to see these days and were not exterminated by very uncle you mentioned in your post.
I have not credited this bloody uncle with all the background crisis. I am sorry if it felt like I did. I have been saying that everything from raise of Moscow kingdom to Orange revolution of 2004 and even Yanukovich’s rejection of European project have made its contribution to this crisis. But single biggest and most important contribution was in fact made by this bloody uncle. And not just in Ukraine, in Caucasus and Central Asia too and not at least in modern days Russia itself. Drawing national borders in far away colonical capitals have generally contributed to a lot of post-colonial conflicts of the past, and will unfortunately contribute to more in the future. One hope is that Ukraine will become an exception.
“You’re thinking of words like “pure evil”, “fascists” and “bastards”, are you?”
No, more the accusative hysterical generalizations such as ““Shame on you bloody leftists”
Kulak: Thanks. I hadn’t considered Chernobyl as a player in this Diorama.
” you hit the jtrig sock puupet in the knee with your rubber stalin hammer”
I need a translation.
Uzbek in the UK, I send you peace to help with your anger. People go too far in their opinions; they too are angry, because they discover that they’ve been subtly deceived. Give them time, information and gentle encouragement. It can’t be rushed, but they might come around in time. And if they don’t, roaring at them won’t change them either.
There is far too much conflict in the world. It makes it difficult to sustain rationality. I wish Suhayl Saadi had time to drop in and put the kettle on, but I know he is over-worked, so it is up to all of us here. Fighting for peace has obvious limitations. Reasoning for rationality is a good alternative.
Habbabkuk, you’ve often been insulted; I’ve done so myself at times, and I apologise. Would you like to help forge a peace-keeping team?
Macky, you too?
Ben, “jtrig soc puppet” is an insult aimed presumably at Habbabkuk. Jtrig operates from GCHQ, a team infiltrating forums to influence or disrupt conversations.
But of course. I got that notion from your 9:43 statement, “Those who have even little understanding of stalins national policy would understand all the background of crisis in Ukraine.” I read all your comments and they are always apposite. I was sure your overall opinion would be nuanced.
It’s all Barking Mad Ben…Even Time Mag is trying to say the same…in a more sedate way…
Clark @12:19 Cheers, Peacmaker 🙂
Thanks Clark; Time to update my acronym lexicon.
@Clark, I fear that the Samuel Johnson quote, is most apt for your proposed peace endeavor here; “The road to hell is paved with good intentions,”
Kulak; Just curious, as always. You must have been reading this blog for a while. May I ask why you comment infrequently, or was this the first one?
Brian; Barking, indeed! lol
Ben
As I said there is not one best source. Read many and think if after all Ukrainians deserved right to decide their future in Kiev and not in Kremlin.
But the one that is (in my opinion) most pro russian in this particular case (as much as in general) is RT.
Talking of which at the bottom of their front page there is a ‘picture of the day’ showing great Russian writers and poets as shown at the closing of Sochi Olympics. One of them is Nikolay Vasilevich Gogol (whose birth name is in fact Ukrainian name Mikola), who was born in modern days Ukraine and wrote a lot in Ukrainian and about Ukraine, which at that time considered to be provincial poetry. His writing has greatly contributed to opening up provincial Ukraine to the conservative public in both Moscow and St Peterburg. He had eventually moved to the capital (St Peterburg), lived, wrote and worked there until his exile after publishing very critical to the conservative elites ‘Dead Souls’. But as much as Dead Souls is still popular today he is most remembered for his writings about Ukrainian provincial life.
Is he great Russian or Ukrainian writer? Any thoughts?
This is one clear sample of complexities of Ukraine and its relation to Russia.
Ok…
so i’m Mad, at the whole fkn world going up in flames of carefully manufactured rebellions….
i got impatient with trying to recheck that site… but we know it’s telling some truths.
We have had many colloquies here. US crimes against privacy make it risky to maintain a single ‘selector’ for NSA chekists to attack. This commenter has noted multiple probes by the criminal US state. You should be careful too.