Crimea Referendum 232


The principle of self-determination should be the overriding consideration, and the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on union with Russia is something which always needed to be part of a solution.  But plainly  this month is much too fast, and a referendum campaign which gives people an informed and democratic choice cannot be held while the Crimea is under Russian occupation and those against the proposed union with Russia are suffering violence and intimidation.

The EU needs to move towards Putin.  An approach that sticks rigidly to Ukrainian territorial integrity being inviolate is sterile.  An international agreement is possible, if the EU makes plain to Russia that it accepts the principle of self-determination.  Agreement should then be reached on immediate withdrawal of Russian forces into their allocated bases in Crimea, and back to Russia if there are indeed extraneous numbers, and an international monitoring presence for the OSCE.

The referendum should then be scheduled for the end of this year, with guarantees of freedom of speech and campaigning, equal media access and all the usual democratic safeguards, again to be monitored by the OSCE.

The apparent pullback from violence has been very useful, but the diplomatic and economic fallout is still potentially very damaging.  Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support.  At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.

 

 

 


232 thoughts on “Crimea Referendum

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  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    Buggalugs contributes to the discussion –

    ‘Only page 1, and the Jooos are here already!’

    Thanks for pointing it out. If a little antisemitic of you. Naturally someone with Israeli citizenship is Jewish. Sorry not to respond before, but you’re not that important.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Ba’al Zevul

    Not fan of Kissinger generally, but this piece is balanced indeed. Fair enough, realist approach seems to be best suited in this situation. But then again, how realists explain sovereignty of one entity with prevailing military power of another entity within that former entity?

  • doug scorgie

    Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!
    7 Mar, 2014 – 11:05 am

    “Haven’t you got the Baltic states mixed up with Crimea?”

    No, do your research Habbabkuk.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    John Goss

    Thank you for bring this horrific accident to our attention.

    Soon ISAF will leave and Afghans will be free to kill each other again (without ISAF). With China getting into bed with Pakistan and Russia/China increasing their influence in Central Asia I anticipate a lot of troubles coming from the south.

    As western lefties are quick to point oppression of Islam in Middle East, the fact is that it is most oppressed in Central Asia, China and Russia. But why would western lefties give a sh..t about this fact as it is nothing to do with either Israel or US?

  • John Goss

    Ba’al Zevul (Let’s Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix)) 7 Mar, 2014 – 12:27 pm

    The mention of Jews is important in this issue and I should like to hear contributions from Jewish comment-makers about there concern for the Jewish population of the Ukraine. Some people play a Jewish card on this blog. I am not one of them. One of my Facebook friends is a Jewish anti-Zionist site. Many Jewish people do not agree with the illegal mafia government that has set itself up with the help of US and European allies.

    http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-Features/Ukrainian-Jews-split-on-dangers-of-protest-movement-333907

    I am as concerned for this minority in the Ukraine as much as I am for the Tatars and other minorities in Crimea.

  • ESLO

    “Putin’s intervention may not be justified but it is understandable.”

    Note how the justification bit is qualified. Good to see this old chestnut being trotted out again – previously used for 9/11, bus bombs etc.

    Lots of evil doing e.g. rape, violence, theft is often perfectly understandable that is not a reason for supporting it or not attributing blame to the perpetrator.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    One small correction. Oppression of Islam in my last post addressed to John Goss should be read as oppression of Muslims. As it is in its root not the same thing.

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    I think realists deal with what’s actually there rather than why, Uzbek. 🙂

  • Uzbek in the UK

    John Goss

    One small correction. Not some people but MANY people if not (MAJORITY of people) on this blog tend to play Jewish (or better describe anti-Semitic) card.

    You are not one of them of course. I have not noticed this tendency on your posting.

  • Macky

    @Uzbek in the UK, Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over one million dead Iraqis, and reflecting if your power balancing muscle flexing comparison means anything to them, apart from a mocking insult.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Ba’al Zevul

    My question is HOW? Realists could not emphasise enough importance of sovereignty and sovereign states and base all their hypothesis on this. But how would they explain sovereignty of Ukraine with Russian Black Sea Navy in Crimea (subject to Crimea being part of Ukraine)?

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over 4 million dead Ukrainians (including 400.000 Crimea Tatars), and reflecting if your western leftie philosophy means anything to them but insult.

  • doug scorgie

    Ba’al Zevul (Let’s Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:27 pm

    “Naturally someone with Israeli citizenship is Jewish.”

    Just to clarify Ba’al Zevul, about 20% of Israeli’s are non-Jews, mostly Arabs.

  • Macky

    Uzbek in the UK; “But why would western lefties give a sh..t about this fact as it is nothing to do with either Israel or US?

    I see you subscribe to that handy but deluded self-hating trope; don’t worry you seem to be in good company, including that of the Blog owner himself.

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    As I posted elsewhere, John, one of the self-appointed troika running Ukraine, Tyahnybok, makes Nick Griffin look like George Bernard Shaw, and his party is about as antisemitic as it gets. It doesn’t stop the Zionists – like Nulands – cosying up to him. But I don’t think Ukrainian Jews will be feeling optimistic about a future involving him.

    Charming photo – gorilla on left is Tyahnybok, guy behind her is Kltschko, of whom she disapproves as a component of her rearrangement of the ‘government’

    https://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72831000/jpg/_72831422_g2drv3ev.jpg

    Meanwhile, nearly everybody missed Netanyahu winding up AIPAC and any other American who would listen on the subject of Iran’s (nonexistent) nuglear missles while the world’s attention was elsewhere –

    http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-netanyahu-los-angeles-20140306,0,6664064.story

    Only page 1, and here come the Nazis again…

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    Just to clarify Ba’al Zevul, about 20% of Israeli’s are non-Jews, mostly Arabs.

    Point taken, but how many of them are oligarchs?

  • Macky

    Uzbek in the UK; “Try imaging looking through the dead eyes of over 4 million dead Ukrainians (including 400.000 Crimea Tatars), and reflecting if your western leftie philosophy means anything to them but insult.”

    Funny, I don’t remember Putin doing any of that !

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    But how would they explain sovereignty of Ukraine with Russian Black Sea Navy in Crimea (subject to Crimea being part of Ukraine)?

    Suggest you check this to see the evolutionary process at work here, Uzbek. It’s complicated. And beyond me, personally.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_Fleet

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    Many times I disagreed (and no doubt will have many more disagreements) with Mr Murray, but I never questioned his integrity. Something that we (me and Mr Murray) came across together (and I cannot talk this in more details) convinced me that his integrity is unquestionable. Not many of YOU will give up 60+K job with free everything (including servants) plus huge pension for rights of some ‘dirty’ people whose existence you would not known before you met them.

    You can insult me within limits (I count this as honour being insulted by bigoted western leftie), but if you question Mr Murray’s integrity I advise you to look inside your empty bigoted head again.

    Nonsense people.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    “Funny, I don’t remember Putin doing any of that !”

    But cause he serves did that and many more (in terms of peoples deaths). KGB (his holly home) was at the forefront of the deaths.

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    Here’s another discussion point. Given that none of this would be happening if several parties did not see a big fat financial profit in being awkward, why not make it commercial?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26452298

    ‘If that lease (2010, Sebastopol and other Crimean Russian bases -BZ) was viewed by the world as ethically tolerable, how big a leap would it be to negotiate a lease on all Crimean territory?’

    Q. Why not?
    A. Because Radio Four listeners would have to endure hours of disjointed wittering by Robert Peston – the author – on the subject.

  • ESLO

    “Some people play a Jewish card on this blog. I am not one of them.”

    You really need to look at yourself in the mirror. You talk as though anti-semitism is just a recent phenomenom in the Ukraine and of course Yanukovych was struggling valiantly to deal with it before his departure – and perhaps we might also consider what steps Mr Putin has taken to deal with anti- Semitism in Russia before you place so much faith in him to deal with the Ukrainian version.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Now Obama is going to tighten the sanctions on Russia. Guess even Putin will lose his exception on a visa to travel to the USA, and using his bank deposits there.

    The Western assault on Ukraine – what it hoped to make into a NATO member by the coup in Kiev just next door to Russia – has completely backfired, with Crimea joining Russia, and the rest of Ukraine facing a complete meltdown.

    Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?

  • ESLO

    Uzbek

    I must object Macky is not a lefty – the policies of Mr Putin and the regimes he supports have nothing whatsoever to do with Liberty, Fraternity and Equality.

    The rest of what you say is of course absolutely spot on.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    “Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?”

    I see all of you decided not to engage in Hitler vs Putin comparison poll I initiated. Well, as with former there is a limit on what could be sacrificed in order to please predatorily appetite. What you suggest giving up to Putin? Crime (like Sudetes to Hitler)? What next? Baltic states? Poland?

    Workable bridges could be of different quality? Like between US and EU and like between US and USSR. Which one are you suggesting to build with Russia?

  • Macky

    Uzbek in the UK; “but if you question Mr Murray’s integrity I advise you to look inside your empty bigoted head again”

    Seems as if your English comprehension skills are letting you down again, times two in one senetence. I would advise that if you don’t agree with my point, simply address & explain why, alas that assumes you already have the basic comprehension skills, but don’t feel insulted, as I know that English is not your Mother Tongue.

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