Crimea Referendum 232


The principle of self-determination should be the overriding consideration, and the Crimean Parliament’s decision to hold a referendum on union with Russia is something which always needed to be part of a solution.  But plainly  this month is much too fast, and a referendum campaign which gives people an informed and democratic choice cannot be held while the Crimea is under Russian occupation and those against the proposed union with Russia are suffering violence and intimidation.

The EU needs to move towards Putin.  An approach that sticks rigidly to Ukrainian territorial integrity being inviolate is sterile.  An international agreement is possible, if the EU makes plain to Russia that it accepts the principle of self-determination.  Agreement should then be reached on immediate withdrawal of Russian forces into their allocated bases in Crimea, and back to Russia if there are indeed extraneous numbers, and an international monitoring presence for the OSCE.

The referendum should then be scheduled for the end of this year, with guarantees of freedom of speech and campaigning, equal media access and all the usual democratic safeguards, again to be monitored by the OSCE.

The apparent pullback from violence has been very useful, but the diplomatic and economic fallout is still potentially very damaging.  Following the Anschluss, Hitler held a referendum in Austria within one month of the military takeover and received 99.7% support.  At the moment Putin stands open to a legitimate accusation of pulling precisely the same stunt in precisely the same timescale.

 

 

 


232 thoughts on “Crimea Referendum

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  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    People could have opinion different from yours. It is not reason to question their integrity. Their expertise perhaps, but not integrity.

    I feel that your address towards Mr Murray was insulting. He did not deserve this after all he has done, not at least in Uzbekistan.

  • Macky

    Uzbek in the UK; “But cause he serves did that and many more (in terms of peoples deaths). KGB (his holly home) was at the forefront of the deaths.”

    Not sure what “cause” you are referring to; and what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Just love Western media’s coverage of the President’s residence in Kiev where it makes out that it was just built by Yanukovych’s corruption.

    Was there no residence before he became President, and the state provided no funds for its construction?

    Realize that the Mariyinsky Palace from the Czar’s days has been made into a museum on the river, but was nothing done to replace it by subsequent regimes?

  • John Goss

    ESLO, I think your understanding of anti-semitism is wrong. I have mentioned on this blog that Semites are not just Jewish people but include many nationalities. I used the word Jewish to be more precise. I genuinely asked for a Jewish opinion not a lecture on how Yakunovich treated Jewish minorities. But if you know the answer to this query, bearing in mind the different concerns of different Jewish factions in the Ukraine, and you can provide links I should be happy to read them.

  • Macky

    Uzbek in the UK; “People could have opinion different from yours. It is not reason to question their integrity”

    First I did not, secondly I disagree, because if somebody’y POV is irrational, ie they cannot convince others of it with clear logic, then some other factor is causing them to hold that POV, be it insanity, money, perjudice etc, etc,

  • doug scorgie

    ESLO
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:48 pm

    “Putin’s intervention may not be justified but it is understandable.”

    “Note how the justification bit is qualified. Good to see this old chestnut being trotted out again – previously used for 9/11, bus bombs etc.”

    ESLO, I’ll un-qualify my sentence: Putin’s intervention is not justified but it is understandable. [given the situation].

    You say: “Lots of evil doing e.g. rape, violence, theft is often perfectly understandable that is not a reason for supporting it or not attributing blame to the perpetrator.”

    Because Putin’s actions in Crimea are understandable does not mean I support him.

    Why have you included rape in your above sentence? Such a crime is neither justifiable nor understandable.

    Unless you are a pacifist, violence (under certain circumstances) can be both justified and understandable.

    However, some actions which are not justifiable can nevertheless be understood; a hungry homeless person stealing food for example.

    Try:
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Logic-Dummies-Mark-Zegarelli/dp/0471799416/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1394200513&sr=1-1&keywords=logic+for+dummies

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    I see Uzbek in the UK that you are still interested in making comparisons between Hitler and Putin.

    The idea is so loony that even current Western scholars do not make any mention of the possibilities with Hitler.

    For example, you should look at what Lilia Shevtsova has to say about Putin in Russia:: Lost in Transition – what shows the bridges I think are necessary for bridging the gaps between Russia and the EU and the USA.

    They are still treating Russia as if it might become again the USSR – what is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

  • doug scorgie

    Uzbek in the UK
    7 Mar, 2014 – 12:53 pm

    “One small correction. Not some people but MANY people if not (MAJORITY of people) on this blog tend to play Jewish (or better describe anti-Semitic) card.”

    Not true Uzbek.

    I think you should back that up with examples of the posts you think are anti-Semitic. Name and shame!

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    ‘Why don’t these Western loons just stick to trying to build a workable bridge to Russia, and repair their own struggling countries?’

    I’ll try my own answer. Because the loons in charge are deeply obligated to global capitalism for their being in charge, and have subordinated national interests to the interests of banks and hedge funds. They don’t think about workable bridges any more. They want to fill the river with concrete shopping malls. And they’d like to teach the world to sing…

    ….Consumerism. It’s the “real” thing.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    “Not sure what “cause” you are referring to; and what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?”

    Why do not you read about Russian/Soviet history little before coming to this blog with your opinions? It would have made you less prejudice (thank you for this word by the way).

    The CAUSE is Russian chauvinism. It has had its peaks and downs but has been persistent (and catastrophic for smaller ethnoses). Started I would say with Ivan the terrible, rolled over towards Europe by Peter the Great, followed by Catherine the Great (although she was German), all the way up to Nicholas I, through Alexander II and III and Nicholas II. Paused during Lenin and peaked again during Stalin (although he was Georgian).

    Now on ex KGB. If only you lived in USSR or have any knowledge of soviet history you would have known that there are no ex KGB. Have you heard of Yurii Andropov? Chief of KGB for almost 20 years before becoming general secretary of USSR. His short era as general secretary was called by soviet people KGBzation. And mind you it was in soviet times when soviet people have not experienced anything liberal before Andropov became general secretary, so Andropov’s rule was compared to Brezhnevshina. To reach high ranks within KGB one needs to be brainwashed to the point that nothing they thought before is true if it contradicts to something they have been tough by KGB. It is much worse in a sense then Vatican hierarchy.

  • John Goss

    ESLO. Yes I’ve had a read. It is a fairly balanced article but the Chief Rabbi’s views are speculative and aimed at creating a misleading idea about what is happening.

    “Things may be done by Russians dressing up as Ukrainian nationalists,” he said, adding that it’s “the same way the Nazis did when they wanted to go into Austria and created provocations.”

    May be done? Come on ELSO. You’re intelligent. Surely you don’t rest your analysis on speculation like this. Do you?

  • doug scorgie

    ESLO
    7 Mar, 2014 – 1:29 pm

    “I must object Macky is not a lefty – the policies of Mr Putin and the regimes he supports have nothing whatsoever to do with Liberty, Fraternity and Equality.”

    So do you support Liberty, Fraternity and Equality ESLO?

  • Uzbek in the UK

    “Liberty, Fraternity and Equality is a cheap old discredited slogan”

    Not to mention how many people have been killed for these 3 words, not at least in France and in Russian empire.

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    Eslo – And do you agree with (Liberty, Fraternity, Equality) Robespierre’s suggestion that “Terror is nothing else than justice, prompt, severe, inflexible” while guillotining 17,000 of his own people?

    Yes to your response. He said it himself:

    “It has been said that terror was the mainspring of despotic government. Does your government, then, resemble a despotism? Yes, as the sword which glitters in the hands of liberty’s heroes resembles the one with which tyranny’s lackeys are armed. Let the despot govern his brutalized subjects by terror; he is right to do this, as a despot. Subdue liberty’s enemies by terror, and you will be right, as founders of the Republic.”

    IOW, it’s all right if I do it.

    I know a guy in Syria who’d like your CV, ESLO….

  • doug scorgie

    Uzbek in the UK
    7 Mar, 2014 – 1:33 pm

    “I see all of you decided not to engage in Hitler vs Putin comparison poll I initiated.”

    There is no comparison Uzbek other than he is an authoritarian.

    He is not going to try and exterminate racial minorities in Russia or anywhere else.

    He is no worse than Obama and Obama is no better than Putin.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Doug Scorgie

    7 Mar, 2014 – 2:57 pm

    “He is not going to try and exterminate racial minorities in Russia or anywhere else.”

    Please tell this to Chechens and possibly Tadjiks and Uzbeks (when times comes).

    All my appeal (followed by historical arguments) about dangers of Russian chauvinism fallen onto the deaf western leftie ears.

  • Uzbek in the UK

    “He is no worse than Obama and Obama is no better than Putin.”

    I still insist. What about hitler? Where would you put him in this equation?

  • Ba'al Zevul (Let's Nuke Russia! (Everett Mix))

    (Note to GCHQ. No, not really. Only joking. Ignore my previous.)

  • fred

    “I still insist. What about hitler? Where would you put him in this equation?”

    Godwin.

  • Macky

    @Uzbek in the UK, So Putin looking out for Russian national interests in the current Ukraine situation, is not only “chauvinism”, but is also obediently following a historic chauvinistic “cause” handed down by a very diverse set of people from Ivan the Terrible, Peter & Catherine the Great, various Kings, Communist Lenin & Soviet Stalin (although he was Georgian !) ??!!!

    Question, are all other leaders who are charged with looking after their respective Countries’ interests, also guilty of “chauvinism” ?

    All what your wrote about the KGB mentality may, or may not be true, but what relevance has it got to my question; what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?

  • Herbie

    Uzbek

    Your experience is interesting, but it certainly hasn’t enhanced your understanding of political theory.

    That’s common enough though.

  • Habbabkuk (La vita è bella!

    “Just to clarify Ba’al Zevul, about 20% of Israeli’s are non-Jews, mostly Arabs.

    Point taken, but how many of them are oligarchs?”
    _________________________

    Good question, BarabarZAeVul! Here’s another for you : how many Israeli Jews are oligarchs?

  • Uzbek in the UK

    Macky

    “All what your wrote about the KGB mentality may, or may not be true, but what relevance has it got to my question; what has his ex-KGB role got to do with his current concerns & considerations as President of Russia ?”

    Role of ex (as you say) KGB of Putin is reflected in both his domestic (building vertical of power – many of you western lefties would have died of hear attack if something similar was built in the UK) and foreign (promotion of Russian chauvinism) policies. Both taught at KGB as a theory and practice.

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