I had fairly well concluded that the most likely cause was a fire disrupting the electrical and control systems, when CNN now say the sharp left turn was pre-programmed 12 minutes before sign off from Malaysian Air Traffic control, which was followed fairly quickly by that left turn.
CNN claim to have this from an US official, from data sent back before the reporting systems went off. It is hard to know what to make of it: obviously there are large economic interests that much prefer blame to lie with the pilots rather than the aircraft. But if it is true then the move was not a response to an emergency. (CNN went on to say the pilot could have programmed in the course change as a contingency in case of an emergency. That made no sense to me at all – does it to anyone else?)
I still find it extremely unlikely that the plane landed or crashed on land I cannot believe it could evade military detection as it flew over a highly militarized region. Somewhere there is debris on the ocean. There have been previous pilot suicides that took the plane with them; but the long detour first seems very strange and I do not believe is precedented. However if the CNN information on pre-programming is correct, and given it was the co-pilot who signed off to air traffic control, it is hard to look beyond the pilots as those responsible for whatever did happen. In fact, on consideration, the most improbable thing is that information CNN are reporting from the US official.
Mochyn69
If (IF) that is the case (and I think “suicide” is likely) they (someone) with knowledge of flight and systems (specific to the 777) would have had to….
1. Wait to the “precise” moment of ATC transfer.
2. Have previously incapacitated the other member(s) of the flight deck.
3. Pull the breakers on “comms”
4. Turned West….and waited.
5. Flown around Indonesia
6. Taken a heading to the first 182 degrees heading waypoint
7. Set NAV for 182 heading
8. a) Killed everyone onboard (and likely himself)
8. b) Sat and waited for 5/6 hours as everyone banged on the cockpit door.
Or
Wait until his colleague goes to the toilet…. point the nose down and throttle up (and keep pressure firmly on the column) and see if you can hit the sea BEFORE you start to break up !
The “first option” I take as “most likely” BUT (a BIG “but”) it’s a bit “long in the tooth” for my liking.
Wonder what India (Campbell Bay) actually saw ?
Kenneth Sorensen
23 Mar, 2014 – 4:39 am I’m glad you liked my little discussion or “rant” as James kindly describes it. Clearly what is meat for one is foul for another. I wonder why? I have seen some early contributions from “James”. He seems a reformed character these days.
My aim, if aim there was, to show how with time the issue of satellite detection has become a hot political potato, that is also used as a bargaining chip as with Britain contributing hundreds of millions to American assets so that it can get access, whilst not being wholly comfortable with the dependence. Falklands was the warning bell that encouraged “Zircon”. It can’t quite go it alone but it is moving that way.
Zircon as you probably saw, was the second time big expenditure was with-held from the Commons watchdog. The first was Chevaline – upgrading with multiple warheads the Polaris missile – in complete secrecy. So rather neatly Chevaline the missile is linked to Chevaline the massacre. Why? Because apart from obvious vocabulary, the direct descendent of Zircon, abandoned on cost grounds, is the latest generation of “Topsat” from 2005 onwards.
It is Topsat that connects in to Saad al Hilli through both the Rutherford Laboratory and SSST for which he worked. Qinetiq (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qinetiq) incorporates multiple links to the US through the Carlyle Group and takeovers. It even had CIA Director George Tenet on the board between 2006 and 8! The firm has had significant security, hacking and personnel issues. Its operating bases were amazingly close to SAH’s at one time, although there is no overt direct link except through SSST.
So now the link with MH370. A topsat satellite gets the “pings” for 5 hrs plus after last radar contact. All those Freescale employees off to China. Is it a CIA imperative to prevent satellite technology getting into “enemy” hands. You bet your bottom dollar it is. Apparently SAH had much more computer work info. than he should have. Yet the laptops were not taken? The only explanation if this was the object of the exercise, is that the attackers were satisfied information could no longer be transferred.
Now we hear (ty BB) B777 had strange problems twice previously whilst coincidentally on the QL route. And that the plane from 2007 had fail-safe anti hi jack but conversely subject to external military over-ride. And that the “crashed into the sea” explanation might have worked were it not for the “pings” and the “military radar”.
Could it be a CIA operation? First if it wasn’t hi jack or suicide, and there’s nothing it appears to support either, then State involvement becomes more likely, and of the possible states, the US most likely on the basis of both capability and motivation. It also has clear previous both on black ops, using aircraft to transfer kidnapped individuals and of intercepting civil aircraft. It also can furnish similar cases of aircraft that ostensibly disappear over its own territory. Nor is it averse, it has proved averse, if it considers it necessary to sacrifice innocent civilians in aerial attacks in Europe in the 80’s and elsewhere since with its drones. 9/11 proved it was capable of literally anything, even against its own.
Globally it is arguably the most advanced in drone and intercept technology. The US Government has intimate connections and control over its main aircraft manufacturers, including Boeing. It has Indian Ocean assets to which a plane could be flown. It has a large naval presence in the Indian and Pacific Oceans with fighter and awacs.
From a strategic point of view China and Russia are holding hands and form a formidable and only opposition to American/Israeli plans in the middle east (Syria/Iran) and eastern Europe (Ukraine). It must therefore be of primary importance to limit the ability of both to control and utilize space. Particularly when military conflict is becoming increasing likely. (Syrian fighter shot down over Turkey today, military manoeuvres on the Russian?Ukrainian border!)
In respect of wreckage photos, and in search, it is noticeable the US appears to have taken a “back seat”. The satellite photos are apparently provided by Australian, French and Chinese equipment NOT US although it must have the means. Further it was reported the US had actively WITH-HELD the information/intelligence that was available to them. They have released no radar information from Garcia that must have registered if a large plane had flown that abnormal route.
Then there are the anomalous sightings and events: the two security men from the Maersk Alabama and its cargo. The removal of Ukrainian gold by plane to the US. Reports of low-flying civil aircraft over Pacific Islands. The announcement of a passenger plane with fighter escort on the eastern seaboard of the united states all in a corresponding timeframe.
All this and a satellite/aircraft related killing in Chevaline that neither the French or the British are prepared to unravel because of the international ramifications and I think you have a pretty strong circumstantial case that this was a CIA organised black op. But then, as James will no doubt tell me in no uncertain terms, what do I know?
or fowl even! (oh dear slip of the brain)
“If (IF) that is the case (and I think “suicide” is likely) they (someone) with knowledge of flight and systems (specific to the 777) would have had to….
1. Wait to the “precise” moment of ATC transfer.
2. Have previously incapacitated the other member(s) of the flight deck.
3. Pull the breakers on “comms”
4. Turned West….and waited.
5. Flown around Indonesia
6. Taken a heading to the first 182 degrees heading waypoint
7. Set NAV for 182 heading
8. a) Killed everyone onboard (and likely himself)
8. b) Sat and waited for 5/6 hours as everyone banged on the cockpit door.
Or
Wait until his colleague goes to the toilet…. point the nose down and throttle up (and keep pressure firmly on the column) and see if you can hit the sea BEFORE you start to break up !
The “first option” I take as “most likely” BUT (a BIG “but”) it’s a bit “long in the tooth” for my liking.”
Your posts have the aroma of misdirection. Why is it you don’t seem to have the courage of your convictions?–Maybe. perhaps, it’s possible…….
JTRIG? Take a definitive stand instead of suggesting………….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation
james @ march 23 7:53am
I looked at the link you gave – it’s really interesting. Are you saying the plane made that 182 deg turn south as the chart shows? how was this calculated/ based on the pings alone? can you say who the source is?
I liked the many airports and waypoints indicated on this map. Interestingly it looks like before that sudden turn the plane was on direct course to Diego garcia, allowing it to pass over the Maldives at about the time the islanders said they saw a low lying plane (no matter it was officially waved off – lots of things were “officially” discounted on this case).
If the map you show of the plane’s course is true (and I haven’t seen that elsewhere) then it indicates that whoever the pilot was had complete control of the plane at that point, blowing out of the water the hypoxia hypothsis and/or the electrical fire theory from the Wire.
Your thoughts will be appreciated.
I have another concern here – we all seem to take the inmarsat “ping” data as absolute truth. maybe that is true but why are we so willing to assume that the release of this data – in whole or in part – is not part of whatever it is that could have happened to the plane.
I am suspicious because for the same reasons other people find the sudden diversion of the search from the South China seas a bit, well, questionable. That on top of the fact that as Tim V pointed out above (I think that’s who did or was it katie?) the malaysian airline waited a rather long time before announcing the plane was missing. Then waited again quite some time before releasing/sharing the Inmarsat satellite data.
james @7;49am laid some of the facts out rather well. We are all left scratching collective heads, but if anything jumps out about the handling of the plane’s disappearance, it’s the confusion of it all. It is only fair to ask whether the confusion from the malaysian side is due to lack of experience, incompetence or something else?
I think we should bear in mind that the british SAT data is ALL we have to indicate a journey to the far south seas. As proper online detectives it behooves us to also examine possibilities that do not require full reliance on those data.
Without those data the scenarios must include the possibility of the plane being shot out of the sky by some military force or another. naturally, if that happened there would be a major effort by almost all the governments involved to deflect attention from that. This could still be an attempted hijacking including the turn westward presumably indicated by malysian military radars but if there was a swift military reaction, resulting in loss of life and craft, well, I can see why this would be something no one wants to disclose. Which would explain a few things (but not all!).
I know there are other scenarios – such as – if we don’t believe the pings, may be some were true and some not – in which case the plane flies on to Diego Garcia, for example, while all the kings’ horses and all the kings’ men keep searching the south Indian oceans for morsels.
My hope is that, if they don’t find any debris that can be conclusively traced to MH370, the mystery of the disappeared flight will become quite unbearable. In which case a cover-up of what really happened is bound to show some cracks.
Marlin
I don’t know if the aircraft took a 182 heading. I took two “ideas” and looked at how this could be “played out”.
The two ideas were “North around Indonesia” and “approx 1200nm off Perth”.
Whilst there are waypoints back from the current search position (along 182) that are used by traffic heading across the Southern Indian Ocean, there is no waypoint further south.
A couple of issues.
As the aircraft flies south (along 182) it would have to be in Track Mode along that GPS heading. I have no idea of the winds there that night, but a crosswind would push the aircraft “off track” which would be “corrected” by the autopilot.It wouldn’t be a “true” courses. And the “pings” may appear to show a different heading (maybe why the arc was show with a large “error” allowed” (?).
You say this blows the hypoxia theory out of the window.
That seems to be true. (although aviation can be sometimes bizarre !).
BlueBird also pointed out the Indian Air Force based at Campbell Bay (INS Baaz). As far as I am aware no information has been given by them.
Surely a Naval base with airborne reconnaissance capabilities would have Primary radar….and would have “noted” this aircraft passing “close by” ?
Add in the fact that a “fire onboard” would mean an instant divert AND the plane would undoubtedly ceased to exist 6 hours later and you’re left with a confusing mystery.
No hypoxia, no fire and a pilot navigating a planned route leads only to pilot suicide.
But a 6 hour wait for a suicide ? Baffled.
Bad series for malaysian airlines. Today it was an A330 airbus.
Is Ali al Hilli currently working for malaysian airlines after he left qantas as technical manager after those qantas accidents?
http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/#!/content/1.2583770
I am puzzled, am I?
Quote:
Completed High school in the UK, Tertiary in UK (Air Service Training/Perth College) and started work in the Middle-east in 1977 as a Graduate Engineer. Served 15 years in Middle East, North African, Asia and European Operations. Established home in Australia in 1992, worked at Aerospace Technologies of Australia for 4 years,
joined Malaysian Airline in 1998
and joined Qantas Engineering in 2001. Extensive Lead and management experience in all departments of Engineering including Line Maintenance, Heavy Maintenance, Maintenance Control, Outstation, Customer Support, Production/Planning and Projects. Participated in Leadership development, coaching, Lean, People, Organisational Structuring and Technical Courses at QE and other Tertiary organisations. Aspire to Lead and influence change, promote and innovate the business, to lead and be involved in strategy and future vision.
au.linkedin.com/pub/ali-al-hilli/4b/605/277
Breaking News…………………that’s become a bit of a joke lately.
But there really is news this morning. Apparently the Chinese ‘have’ seen new debris ,not via satellite but from planes , eyes on, in roughly the area where searching is going on.
Source, Sky news.
James, don’t be too hard on Donald, he’s in Australia so hence the familiar use of your name, but I thought he could add some useful help here. 😉
Blue
And all Boeing also.
Katie…
Get him adding some stuff.
I was only pointing out that you compare what you have on Secondary to what you see on Primary. And the one “remaining”, is your track.
For Example, 20 on Sec and 20 on Prim. Goes to 19 on Sec and 20 on Prim.
And I had to laugh at your “Breaking News”.
It’s normally followed by some craziness from the resident loony !
Bring by Donald (as long as he doesn’t call me “Jamie” (sounds like I work for “Easy Jet” !).
Boeing at Satellites.
Hmmmmmm ! Been here before.
I would hazard a guess that whatever has happened to MH307, it’s been in the planning for a couple of years.It’s not a spur of the moment thing.
Some most recent background on the growing Sunni-Shia conflict in malaysia and the Iranian-Malaysian conflict growing.
Although opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim denies to have Shia roots, he admits to be a follower of Ayatollah Khomeini and that he supported the iranian revolution.
There are rumours that the pilot of MH370 is from an iranian family and that he is a supporter of Anwar Ibrahim.
Most recently malaysian Petronas lost billions due to the iranians sanctioning malaysia because of their aggressive anti shia politics.
Now mix the pilot, ali al hilli and anwar ibrahim into an iranian conspiracy plot versus the malaysian government and malaysian airlines in order to weaken the malaysian anti shia government….
Does it make sense?
http://www.valuewalk.com/2014/02/malaysia-shia-sunni-conflict/
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/belief/minister-malaysian-shia-keep-your-beliefs-yourself
http://my.news.yahoo.com/anti-shia-campaign-hits-pocket-minister-seeks-pas-040038560.html
https://anwaribrahimblog.com/2013/12/16/dont-be-used-by-putrajaya-anwar-tells-jakim/
http://my.news.yahoo.com/anwar-hits-missing-najib-flight-mh370-saga-060020041.html
Blue…
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2519
Thanks james
That is about what malaysian media write regarding ibrahim.
A pro iranian sunni who is moderate in regards to shia views while he is critical of america and zionism and often ranting the usa. The latter we had often heard regarding the al hillis.
Better moving that into the al hilli topic???
However, many international crimes do always fit together and point backwards towards the same people, same families and same companies.
James, In reply to your 7:50 comment, I had just finished replying to a “Jamie” on an another site, guess it stuck, sorry.
Everybody:
I have questions pertaining a theory I am developing, could use some help. I need to find out if there is any way to find out if the two Iranians traveling on the plane had gone to Africa in the days previous to the plane’s disappearance, also if their middle man, a Mr Ali, had traveled to Africa prior to handing over the passports to the two young me. Also if any of the passengers had traveled to Africa.
I also tried to find out if the plane itself had been to Africa in the same period of time …
Nothing longer than a week prior. 7 days at the most
Can anybody help me, please ?
Just some more info, I already found out that the two young Iranians had traveled to Malaysia from Qatar, not from Iran as many think, I am wondering if perhaps they first went to Africa and then Qatar or if Mr Ali had met them in Qatar after he himself had returned from Africa (should that be the case)
Perhaps maybe the passports were altered in Africa, say Nigeria for example.
Actually Donald,there could be something in that, do you remember the first description of those guys….they were said to be African & one looked Bolettli [ or similar] the footballer who is black black, now how can the ones we were finally shown be described as such ?
Actually, that is true, I believe that one of the officials said one of the young men looked like some black sports person, but that is not what I am after.
I want to find out if there is any link whatsoever between the plane, the passengers, the cargo, or Mr Ali .. and Africa.
Donald
If you check out flightradar24, click on the database.
From there enter the tail.
And it’ll give you the history (back a few days only).
James, thank you, I did that but it tells me that all previous flight history for 9M-MRO is not in the database, the message reads:
“….Sorry, but we could not find flights for specified aircraft in our databases…..:
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/9m-mro
I eventually found the link below but there is no information about the planes whereabouts between 7th of March this year and October last year
http://www.airfleets.net/flightlog/index.php?file=result&app=b777&msn=28420
I want to know where everybody was in the last 7 days prior to the plane’s disappearance, including the cargo, and yes, I know it is difficult.
I do have a good theory, but I don’t want to look like an idiot just yet, I need a bit more info before I make a fool of myself and post it 🙂
Is the public being played for fools by Abbott and his multi-national aerial and marine search?
I also found out that the flight was to last 5 1/2 hours, adding 2 hours of extra fuel that gave it 7 1/2 hours flying time, but the twists and turns it supposedly took before it headed South and down into the Indian Ocean means it would have lost some 3 hours worth of fuel before it began the journey South. So it could only have flown for 4 1/2 hours meaning it wouldn’t have made it too far down, certainly not the Maldives
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/9MMRO
Not being a pilot I suppose some here already know this.
Mary, all I can tell you is that Diego Garcia and Jindalle are part of the nuclear tracking radar network, the most advanced in the world, nothing gets past them, certainly not a giant plane with no transponder switched on. That is impossible.
And I can’t for the life of me believe that Diego Garcia which is where America’s B52 fleet is based did not detect the plane before it came anywhere near them or if it did, that it did not send interceptors after it.
I don’t know about that Mary, but I do wonder why an aircraft carrier has not gone to search the area,surely that would have saved all this flying to & from to refuel in Perth ?
Donald
It depends on the power settings (and alt).
At “cruise” you’re higher and not at full throttles.
The alternates dictates fuel (and holds). MAS were fined some years ago for declaring a “mayday” when diverted. Their fuel (if stated correctly) seems to be okay.
As for reaching where it appears to have reached. Again depends on Alt.
And we don’t know OR may never know (FDR unrecoverable) what that was.
Katie. Me neither, perhaps the whole thing is some sort of diversion? something to keep our minds occupied and not consider other possibilities?
Are there no carriers or other naval ships in the Indian Ocean already, that’s odd, imagine America and Australia leaving that part of the world unsecured.