MH17 – Downed by Elite Collusion

by craig on July 22, 2014 1:57 pm in Uncategorized

The immediate cause of the MH17 disaster was a missile shot by pro-Russian forces who mistook it for one of the military aircraft they had been regularly shooting down. It is a terrible tragedy – and tragically not unique. There have been several such events in my lifetime, including the USS Vincennes incident and the Soviet downing of a Korean airliner.

The problem is that Vladimir Putin has revived the Soviet cult of perfectionism – the idea that the state simply cannot make a mistake. That Putin-backed forces could commit an error is therefore unthinkable, as that would imply that Putin made an error in backing and supplying them. Putin cannot make errors. We have therefore seen a stream of desperate propaganda stories emanating from the Russian media, such as the allegation that it was the government in Kiev attempting to shoot down Putin himself. These narratives are aimed at the domestic Russian nationalist audience, but are accepted by the small band of ardent Putin supporters in the West.

Many people in the West, myself included, have been shocked and alienated by the rampant and vicious immorality of Western foreign policy in what I might call the neo-con era, with the ascendancy of Bush and Blair marking a step change in the open use of military force to grab natural resources – a return to the Imperial heyday. The veneer of concern for democracy and human rights layered over Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, the curtailment of long-cherished civil rights at home and the mass compound crimes of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, led to a visceral revulsion.

Putin’s successful opposition to western designs on Syria and Iran gave the impression, quite probably correctly, that a revived Russia was the only effective obstacle to western hegemony, China being passive. But unfortunately this led some who opposed Western neo-imperialism to join in the hero worship of Putin.

The mechanisms of this vary. In my view, the largest number are people who are not psychologically equipped to fight over-mighty power everywhere, which is a lonely path, and prefer the much easier option of joining the entourage of a big power, and convincing themselves that power is good. It is comforting to feel part of a powerful team. Some of course are paid by the Russians, and you see them turning up on Russia Today both as presenters and interviewees, but these are a small section. Some were supporters of the Soviet Union.

What is perhaps most extraordinary is that, the very things which these people criticise most about Western society, Russia and Putin do much worse. At the most fundamental level, the disparity of wealth between rich and poor in Russia is far, far worse than the still appalling level it has reached in the West.

The total Russian economy is 20% smaller than the total British economy. Yet Russia has almost three times as many billionaires as the UK, and the Russian billionaires’ combined wealth is over six times the combined wealth of British billionaires.

Go figure. Yet the delusional continue to contrive to believe that Russia is an alternative to global capitalism.

Russia is not only a much more unequal society than the West. It also much worse in the field of civil liberties and media freedom. Scores of real journalists have been killed, mostly unheard of internationally. The free media has vanished. In the West, the field of opinion reflected in the mainstream media has narrowed right down. In the UK, Andrew Gilligan was sacked for telling the truth about Iraqi WMD, while his source was murdered. But the West is moving in the direction of autocracy; Russia is already there. It in no sense represents an alternative, freer society than the West.

Nor is Russia any less imperialist. Putin is in fact an extremely aggressive nationalist imperialist, as his annexations of Abkhazia and Crimea have shown. Highly significant is the legislation just passed to award Russian nationality to ethnic Russians in former Soviet states. That is racially based legislation. It means for example that 40% of the population of Kazakhstan potentially become Russian citizens, with similar figures in the Baltic states. It is highly aggressive and designed to have destabilising potential.

One fact which has become undeniably clear in the Ukraine is that the pro-Russian insurgency in the East is commanded by members of the Russian military and security forces like Strelkov who are Russian, not Ukrainian citizens, and they are under tactical and strategic supervision from Russia. Again, the self-hating fantasist tendency in the West manage to convince themselves that what is happening in East Ukraine is massive destruction of civilian populations by NATO forces.

People who are that removed from reality cannot be helped.

Much more dangerous are those who do have a grip on reality, who understand exactly what is really happening, and who don’t care. That sums up the position of almost all western governments. The truth is that the financial interests of all those Russian billionaires are completely linked in with those of the super-rich of the West. To take only the UK as an example, these are the people Tony Blair, Peter Mandelson and Boris Johnson lunch and have holidays with. These are the people who employ Gerhard Schroeder and David Owen as lapdogs.

Nobody is more annoyed than Angela Merkel at the downing of MH17, not because she cares about those dead people, but because of the massive effort she has put into ensuring that, whatever Russia does in Ukraine, German economic interests will not be affected. Germany gets most of its electricity from Russian gas, and both Siemens and Mercedes, on a daily basis, have been lobbying Merkel to make sure that nothing is done that hurts German economic interests. Cameron has been receiving the same lobbying from his banker mates. In both these cases, the politicians are being talked to by the people who finance them.

The result is that there has been a strong diplomatic push, particularly by Germany, to divert the question of sanctions on to matters of process. The problem is not Russia trying to annex bits of Ukraine and funding, arming and staffing the destabilisation of a European state. The Germans are seeking to define the problem down to whether or not Russia cooperates in various stages of the air crash investigation.

Putin will continue his dangerous expansionist nationalism because it is a self-trapping path for a politician to take; but also he is encouraged that whatever he does, nobody makes any serious moves to stop him. The people on MH17 were killed because of the pusillanimity of Western politicians, financed and guided by the financial elite.

The pathetic “sanctions” adopted by the US and EU so far have been specifically designed to be completely toothless. They target middle and lower ranking individuals without major western links anyway. None of the top ten largest Russian billionaires has been touched.

Russia’s richest man – Alisher Usmanov – is extremely close to Putin and as chairman of Gazprominvestholdings has been directly involved for a decade in pressurising Ukraine, and was also Putin’s chosen instrument for closing down the free media. But you won’t see Usmanov on any sanctions list – he has 10% of Facebook, 29% of Arsenal FC, the most expensive mansion in Surrey and numerous other western connections, not to mention he is Gerhard Schroeder and David Owen’s direct boss.

Much has been said of the 1.2 billion dollars contract for two amphibious assault vessels Russia has ordered from France. Amphibious assault! Where?

But, actually much more interesting, 1.2 billion dollars incredibly happens to be the combined value of four of the World’s largest luxury yachts, which met together off Cap Ferrat and Antibes from 10 to 16 June this year. They are Dilbar, Madame Gu, Grand Bleu and Hermitage.

In Putin’s Russia, government, organised crime and secret services are absolutely integrated. All were well represented at the series of meetings that took place on those yachts, where deals were done on everything from metal prices to heroin – and Ukraine. If US drones had wanted to do some good in the world, there was their target, but they were too busy killing some 16 year old kid, and numerous bystanders, in Waziristan or Yemen for a dangerous interpretation of the Koran. None of the people at those meetings will appear on any sanctions list, though they are the men who rule Russia with Putin. They will all still be very welcome in boardrooms in London, Berlin and New York.

If Europe had followed from the start the excellent leadership offered by Radek Sikorski, the passengers on MH17 would not have died. I should like to think that the European Council will start to listen to Sikorski now. But I doubt it.

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322 Comments

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  1. No contradiction here, but I just wondered how you are 100pc sure who fired the missile at MH17.

    Heavy duty rumours coming out of Reuters that a reliable whistleblower reported seeing US satellite photos of the BUK missile system which was used. Surrounded by military in Ukraine Army uniforms + some scattered beer-bottles. Obama has only stated that the missile came from a BUK on separatist held territory, not who was manning it. There must be photos because this happened in daylight and satellite from the US, Russia and China must be keeping an eye on Ukraine.

    I am ready to accept whatever judgment comes to publication, but many in the West especially have been very quick to join the anti-Putin lunch-mob. Whether you like Putin or not it is hardly right to play ‘pin the tail on the donkey’ when the investigators have scarcely begun their work. For the Sun to say: “it was Putin what done it” may satisfy their readership and may also please the perception managers in the Pentagon, but it is not enough

  2. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 2:11 pm

    Excuse me for asking, but what or who exactly, is the financial elite.? These are the ones who don’t want anything done to Putin, right?

  3. “The immediate cause of the MH17 disaster was a missile shot by pro-Russian forces”

    Evidence please.

  4. Nobody is more annoyed than Angela Merkel at the downing of MH17, not because she cares about those dead people, but because of the massive effort she has put into ensuring that, whatever Russia does in Ukraine, German economic interests will not be affected.

    Why did Germany back the coup by immediately recognizing the new government in Kiev? Did it not occur to Merkel that an ultra-nationalist regime that took power in a coup might piss off a lot of Ukrainians?

    If Russia is so important why the EU trade association agreement?

  5. Yes, that 1st sentence is a lot to swallow without a little something to substantiate it.

  6. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 2:29 pm

    Craig; I fear your back-water sources are letting you down. First you were privy to the reason MH17 was diverted due to weather. Then in the last post you reference the Beeb, whom you are loathe to trust normally. You cryptically mention last post that the financial elites are suborning punishment for Putin, but don’t elaborate as you said you would on this post.

    Is someone feeding you things you want to hear, knowing your distaste for Putin?

  7. Some credible issues raised in the non-MSM include:

    Why was the plane routed through the conflict area by Ukranian ATC, it has been shown that for ten days previously and becoming the norm, the same flight turned southwards before Eastern Ukraine?

    What were the Ukranian fighter jets doing around the plane?

    Any BUK missile captured by the East Ukranians from the Ukranian military would have only been one component of a functioning system, and would it -an older type BUK from the late-1980s, have had the height to reach a commercial 777’s at cruise altitude of 33,000 metres. The transport plane shootdown though could have been achieved with shoulder launched weapon, its shootdown does not imply a functioning BUK in East Ukraine’s control

    Voice recordings of radio chatter have been shown to be assemblage of earlier recordings, including from the earlier transport plane shootdown.

    Strelkov reputedly has not and never has had accounts on the Russian Twitter equivalent, so the boastful/celebratory tweeting seems unlikely to have originated from this individual. The suggestion too, that frontline commanders would have any use for social media at any time, especially in the midst of grave events is absurd.

    I can pick up these inconsistencies in the superficial scan of non-western MSM sources such as asiatimes, I’m sure a more thorough and informed look could find dozens more.

    I’ll trust the definitive Russian and East Ukranian accounts, when they come, to be better informed and closer to the truth than ‘our’ western storytellers, who can never be trusted to get the simplest matter straight.

  8. ” Highly significant is the legislation just passed to award Russian nationality to ethnic Russians in former Soviet states. That is racially based legislation.”

    By the way Craig, how is the Scottish vote going? Still base on non-ethnic considerations?

    And when it comes to assessing the economic imbalance in a society, it doesn’t make much sense to include far flung ‘outliers’ in the mix. The Oligarchs are best viewed as a separate species, since they are too rich to be part of the active community. A more disturbing economic asymmetry is when large portions of society are becoming the haves and have-nots, such as the stupidly growing public sector workforce versus the shrinking private sector workforce.

  9. Very good piece of writing, very i formative, very right. I really appreciate it, Craig. Thank you.

  10. Excellent article, Craig, thank you. We are entering very dangerous times.

  11. Excellent article.

  12. Good post Craig.

  13. Sorry Craig, you forgot to suggest the US turn its Drones on itself, itself a criminal empire.

  14. Jettison the goofy bits drafted by Dave Spart and what remains on Russia as a corrupt imperial power makes good sense. To the point of bewildering and dismaying your army of conspiracy theory experts, as we already behold

    Congratulations!

  15. Yes, don’t let pesky things like evidence spoil a good rant.

  16. Craig, you do yourself no favours when you descend into phrases like “…self-hating fantasist…” to describe genuine people who question the barrage of increasingly obvious official lies put out by the western media. It smacks too much of the “self-hating jew” smear applied by the pro-Israel lobby to any jew who threatens the approved zionist narrative.

  17. @Craig. Have you lost control of your senses. Nobody knows! It is the purpose of the investigation to show this, that, or something else, is the case. It certainly looks like it was shot down, but hard evidence of nothing else as far as I have seen. You were spot on with your first thread; such a shame you’ve become part of the mmedia.

  18. @Charles: In this case, the conspiracy theory seems to have been created by the orchestrators of the mainstream media.

  19. Agree with others that bald statement about which parties shot down plane is way premature here. Otherwise, you might wish to consider that one doesn’t have to be “pro” Putin in order not to rush to judgment on various actions he has taken versus actions taken by other nations. At least Putin doesn’t have a Tuesday list of victims waiting to be assassinated by drones. Some of us don’t subscribe to a manichean view of the world, a la George W. Bush.

  20. Kelly: murdered? Is that hunch/supposition/allegation? or are you satisfied there is evidence (even if only eg off-record confirmation)

  21. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 3:04 pm

    “Ukraine is just too big to be helped if it does not massively help itself. Perhaps if Russia sees the prospect of instability across Ukraine it will decide to throw its weight behind something more sensible? But for this purpose what or who is ‘Russia’? The situation there is no less grim according to many economic and social indicators. The decadent KGB-oligarchocracy may just prefer to plunder the whole space into the ground?

    http://charlescrawford.biz/2013/12/02/ukraine-now-what/

    Austeriteee! Liberteeeee1 Fraternateee !!

    IMF/EU = Utopia….huzzaaahhh !

    Now that’s some financial elitism.

  22. Excellent article, indeed, Craig, except for a few tiny points. The Russian oligarchs were enabled by Yeltsin under the guidance of US Wall Street oligarchs including Rubin and Summers, and Putin has struggled since to remove/reduce their influence which was totally robbing the Russian people (much as is now occurring in Greece and elsewhere. There is a very interesting UTube piece on this from the Icelandic President for those with a wider perspective than Craig.). I reckon that you were sacked from the FO not for whistle-blowing about torture but for pure ignorance and refusal to recognise facts when they are outside of your chosen prejudice or agenda.

  23. The MH17 incident is a horrible tragedy and the ones who have committed it should be heavily punished. However, the question that should be asked is ‘Why has this incident occurred?’. The crash is the consequence of the war between separatists and Kiev, and the reason of this war is the coup which happened after Maidan which was supported by Western powers, because Yanukovich did not sign the association agreement that is not beneficial for Ukraine – the current situation proves it. In the millennium, where ever the US is intervening, the situation is getting worse there. In Iraq and Afghanistan – people are dying everyday although the US troops have been withdrawing. In Libya – government doesn’t exist. In Syria – civil war. In Ukraine – civil war. Putin was against all these. However, situation of Ukraine is very different. Ukraine has always been the red line because Russian leaders have always viewed Ukraine as vital to Moscow’s defense. In this situation, Putin is protecting geopolitical interest of Russia by implementing heavy steps.
    As long as the West does not start to respect interest of Russia, the war will not stop. It is time to say stop to the WEST, particularly US.

  24. Interesting statistics about GDP. EU > US. Russia seems to have recovered well from the Yeltsin years… well enough to overtake Italy. And how is it that despite all the slagging off, France is doing so well? But all this has nothing to do with getting at the truth about MH17. Can we get back to that… oh yes, that has already been decided, Craig, it was in your first paragraph.

  25. About those puny sanctions. Under UN Charter Article 41, interruption of economic relations is subject to UNSC authority. Under Chapter VII. Even the 15 March resolution invoked only Chapter VI. Sanctions are above the EU’s pay grade. Don’t take my word for it, ask UNCTAD and the G-77. A/RES/68/262, ambivalently passed though it was, stressed Ukraine’s sovereignty. If you followed that up with coercive sanctions that breach the non-intervention principle it would strike a bit of a sour note, Don’t you think?

    But But But Russia will veto everything!!1 Well, that’s why great power confrontation is such a bite in the ass, Isn’t it? In fact, great power confrontation is itself a breach of the non-intervention principle. That leaves us with pacific dispute resolution.

  26. Don’t forget the lengths Amerika will go to hide the truth in plane shoot downs.

    TWA 800.

    and the full truth has yet to be told about Lockerbie.

    We are all being government by the morally and criminally corrupt.

  27. I know you don’t like Putin and the Russians but can’t you wait for proof util you start to point fingers ? Our media has been doing nothing but for the last few days.
    The US says it has undisputable proof and yet the only thing which has been put forward are Facebook entries which were quickly removed. Snowden told us a couple of weeks ago that ,that is daily bread for our security services.They regularly hack FB Twitter accounts, online polls, comments in newspapers etc etc etc.
    I dare say that Putin would give orders for the Shaggy answer, ” it wasn’t me “, but now that they have done a bit of back checking,recordings of the radar screens from Rostov have been shown, + each false accusation has been denied with proof.
    Kiev has the Air Traffic control tapes available. Where are they ? Usually that’s the first thing that’s broadcast… pilots last words or conversation. Nada !!
    Biggest question of all, WTF was it flying over this area for ?
    And meanwhile Kiev hammers Donetsk with no nation saying it might be inappropriate at this point.Isn’t that suspicious ?
    They’ve been telling Putin to keep his nose out of East Ukraine for months now, and all of a sudden it’s, if the rebels don’t do this and that, It’s russia’s fault.It’s Putin’s civil war, weapons , delay’s which weren’t delays and no access when there was access all according to the OSCE and Malaysian and Dutch investigators.
    I fully understand the Rebels holding back the Black boxes to prevent Kiev getting them , now they’ve been handed over & Malaysia happy they’ve not been tampered with.The unison of the MSM Craig,ought to raise your eyebrows as they parrot Cameron’s mood and tone.
    What reasons could there be for keeping satellite imagery of the event secret ? It all smells rather like Assad’s chemical weapons.

  28. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 3:21 pm

    ” It all smells rather like Assad’s chemical weapons.”

    A concert with Cameron and Obummer singing the high notes should be heard with a tin-ear.

  29. Let’s hope they all do a Maxwell.

    Dilbar – 110m (360.89ft) – Lürssen – 2008
    Alisher Usmanov – net worth USD 18.1 billon – Russia
    Metalloinvest, Kommersant – metalloinvest.com
    Alisher Usmanov is one of Russia’s richest men, with a fortune estimated at USD 18.1 billion. He is shareholder of Metalloinvest, one of the largest iron ore suppliers in the world. He is also owner of Arsenal Football Club, Kommersant (a Russian newspaper) and several other media companies. Superyacht Dilbar is named after his mother

    Madame Gu – 99m (325ft) – Feadship – 2013
    Andrei Skoch – net worth USD 8 billion – Russia
    Metallo Invest – metalloinvest.com
    Madame Gu is owned by Russian billionaire Andrei Skoch. Skoch also owns the Amels yacht Lady Gulya.

    Le Grand Blue – 112.8m (370.0ft) – Vulkan – 2000
    Evgeny Shvidler – net worth USD 1.4 billion – Russia
    Sibneft (oil), Millhouse LLC – http://www.gazprom-neft.com
    Evgeny Markovich Shvidler is the owner of the yacht Le Grand Blue. Shvidler started his career in NewYork, working for Deloitte & Touche. He returned to Russia, where he started the oil trading company Runicom, together with Roman Abramovich. In 1995 they took control of Sibneft. Sibneft was Russia’s fastest growing and most profitable oil company. Evgeny Shvidler was president of the company. In 2005 state company Gazprom aquired Sibneft for USD 13 billion. Currently Shivdler still invests with Abramovich as they together own the investment and asset management company Millhouse.

    Hermitage – 68.5m (225ft) – Lurssen Yachts – 2011
    Anatoly Sedykh – net worth USD 1.1 billion – Russia
    United Metallurgical Company – http://www.omk.ru/en/OMK
    Superyacht Hermitage is rumored to be owned by Russian billionaire Anatoly Sedykh

  30. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 3:29 pm

    Russian oligarchs are dwarfed by US billionaires. I think Bill Gates has more than the Russians combined, or close to it.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2013/03/06/full-list-u-s-billionaires-of-2013/

  31. Makes you feel poor. http://www.superyachtfan.com/superyachtownersregister.html

    I will give the link to a friend who told me that ‘there’s no money’ even for our beloved NHS. I reminded her of HS2 £50bn upwards and HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince Charles £bn think of a number.

    I’m off for a while for my op but will await the AIIB report with interest. Cameron has agreed with the Dutch that Farnborough will conduct the investigation on the black boxes.

    BREAKING NEWS:British air accident investigators based at Farnborough will retrieve data from black boxes of flight MH17, PM says

  32. “Let’s hope they all do a Murdoch.”

    You probably mean a Maxwell. Unless you wish them all a growing fortune and influence.

  33. Hmm, you do seem to have a bit of a downer on old Vlad. I will reiterate that I carry no torch for him, but the mem that he is an expansionary imperialist simply does not stack up.

    One simply needs to look at a map to observe who the imperialists are and it is the neo-con West, either through NATO marching ever eastwards right up to the Russian Federation borders or via R2P and neo-con ‘coalitions of the willing’ in the Middle East, where once they are done they foment sectarian difference and leave behind hopelessly weak pseudo-democracies guaranteed to fail at some point (libya, Iraq).

    I’m sure the West would much prefer to have a drunken buffoon like Yelstin running Russia whose slavish adherence to the neo-liberal method was the primary factor in both creating Russian poverty and then building up the obscene wealth gap that pertains today. The West is certainly not shy of taking the ill-gotten gains of both Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs into their banking systems, no questions are ever asked about how the money was obtained.
    Whatever you think of Putin, the idea that he is building an empire is risible. So far he has added Crimea to the RF, a desire that Crimeans have held since 1991. South Ossetia and Abkhazia were likewise never happy within Georgia and fought the regime for a long time before 2008. All in all it’s a pretty pathetic empire.
    Those former Soviet republics currently affecting fear of Putin and that wish to avoid secessionist movements need simply avoid persecuting their Russian minorities (e.g. the Baltic states) rather than running overt or covert policies of apartheid as they currently do.

  34. Grayslady
    “At least Putin doesn’t have a Tuesday list of victims waiting to be assassinated by drones. Some of us don’t subscribe to a manichean view of the world,”

    I guess you have no inkling that you exactly do what you incorrectly attribute to Craig. Very funny indeed.

  35. Thanks very much Craig.

    Only trouble with your piece is that its about the most depressing 1000 words I’ve read for a long time.

    But thanks anyway

  36. Outflanking West in Syria
    Crimea
    The oil deal with China
    Pipeline deal with Austria and Hungary
    BRICS setup rival to IMF
    Putin rips Cuba’s debt up.

    Let’s face it Craig.Putin is on a roll.
    MH17 whether it was designed for purpose or not is being used to make Putin look guilty.

  37. Yes I did mean Maxwell. Thanks Phil. Both revolting. One fat and one not.

  38. Scouse Billy

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:01 pm

    Lol – limited hangout, or what?

    Keep taking the fluoride, Craig 😉

  39. Scouse Billy

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:06 pm

    “The Russian media space has become so uniform and independent voices so cowed and marginalized that there is no counterweight and, when there’s no counterweight, if you repeat a thing often enough, it becomes the truth.”

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/new-republic-queen-presstitutes-paul-craig-roberts/

  40. Never mind about evidence and judicial process. If you hate a guy’s guts, of course he did it. Plain as the nose on your face. Depressing to see the lynch-mob-mind operating here, however much it wraps itself up in anti imperialist rhetoric.

  41. From Craig: ” If Europe had followed from the start the excellent leadership offered by Radek Sikorski, the passengers on MH17 would not have died. I should like to think that the European Council will start to listen to Sikorski now. But I doubt it.”

    Notes on this “distinguished”, redoubtable person, from (sorry) Wikipedia:

    “From 2002 to 2005 he was a resident fellow of the American Enterprise Institute in Washington, D.C., and executive director of the New Atlantic Initiative.[11] He was editor of the analytical publication European Outlook, and organised international conferences. He is a member of the Board of Advisors of the American Committees on Foreign Relations.[12]

    From 1988 to 1992 he advised Rupert Murdoch on investing in Poland.

    Sikorski is married to the American journalist and historian Anne Applebaum.”

    A more right-wing Zionist prick you cannot imagine. Why is Craig Murray lionising this person? Very worrying.

  42. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:11 pm

    Putin is playing poker and Obomber is playing War. The challenge is clear; US has satellite imagery and Kiev has the ATC logs and data.

    Put up or STFU.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/russia-u-s-show-evidence-kremlin-backed-rebels-downed-mh17-n161806

  43. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:13 pm

    Oh and please excuse the source on the previous post. I’ll try to stick with RT or ITASS.

  44. Maybe we should dissassociate the current canpaign of critisism of Russia from the horror of this shocking missile attack on a commercial jet. The downing of this jet is truly a horrible issue, but the Neocons seem to be using it as another plank in their attack on Putin and Russia that was already underway.

    I am not under any illusions about Russia. But to my mind, Putin’s Russia was about the most benign Russian society that the West has had to face in centuries. Indeed Russia’s sphere of influence / borders are the furthest east they have been. We should be thankful for small mercies; so why have we been picking at Russia for months (long before this shooting down of a jet) in what can only be a neocon effort to recreate the cold war.

    Why do the Neocons want another cold war? Are their economic concerns at home that the public is unaware of? Or are the Neocons concerned that the excesses of their out-of-control security/intelligence apparatus, and the negative effect that this has had on our civil liberties and freedom, are now coming to public attentiion and do they need a distraction?

    Whatever it is, we would be closer to resolving this horrible airliner shooting down if we had not spent the last year sticking pins into Mr. Putin. Putin’s Russia is far more benign than it’s predesessor States – USSR and Tsarist Russia – and in this run up to the centenary of WW1 we should not forget that.

  45. Craig is incredibly blinkered when it comes to the Ukraine. He might like to present evidence before making sweeping statements, however plausible ( let’s forget for now that the whole debate is misframed – what actually matters is not WHO but WHY).

  46. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:18 pm

    http://rt.com/news/174544-un-probe-malaysia-plane/

    Ukraine will have to answer a lot of questions during the international investigation, Churkin said during his speech at the UN Security Council, adding that Kiev spread fake information allegedly connecting the self-defense forces to the downing of the plane.

    “Throughout the investigation Ukraine would have to answer many questions: about the actions of its air traffic controllers, the reasons for the movement of one of the Ukrainian Buk missile systems on July 17 right next to the area controlled by the militias. Why this missile defense system was moved immediately after the airplane crash? Why on July 17 Ukrainian air defense radar worked at the maximum intensity?” Churkin said.”

    Russia trusts ICAO to conduct the investigation; Kiev not so much.

    Damn that Vlad !

  47. “this shocking missile attack on a commercial jet”

    Truth is we don’t know if it was a missile attack. It might have been a bomb. Or something else. Only a forensic examination of the wreckage will determine what happened. It will also confirm the identity of the plane.

  48. Come on Craig, if Charlie Crawford is harrumphing there must be a rat away!

    Fact that even poxy local politicos’ bagmen chosen from among the trusted underworld fraternity are engaged to pick up and drop the orders/-ribes, perhaps has been escaping your attention?

    Time and again we have arrived at this juncture, and the epiphany that; the criminal underworld, the elite (at the behest their masters the money makers/lenders), through their intermediaries the SIS, rule the roost; Laws are for the nobodies, and the great unwashed.

    To find machinations of commodity price fixing and realignment of interests taking place aboard the luxury yachts and out of the way of the prying eyes of the unwashed, is nothing extraordinary. At leas they don’t meet every morning somewhere nearby and set up the next target to be achieved as most of our lot do!

    However, what has this to do with the Malaysian jet? Although as an aside, best keep an eye on who is getting ready to buy that airline, and at what price?

    I know you are not a fan of Putin, but are you in favour of the empire of chaos setting its ducks in row in the way of attacking and democratising Russia too?

  49. What’s on this fantasist’s self-hating mind just now is not Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, but North Korea.

    http://vho.org/aaargh/fran/livres8/BLUMkillinghope.pdf (Ch. 5)

    Steady escalation of violence on the border of a designated US enemy? Check.
    Repressive criminal oligarchy in the destabilized state? Check.
    Blurring the line between civil insurrection and aggression? Check.

    Difference is, now the UN’s no longer such a well-oiled US machine – the Russians aren’t boycotting it. Now the OSCE is here too. And this time, thank goodness, no parties are commies: as Craig reminds us, now they’re kleptocrats like us. Blum calls communism the single factor that made the difference between mediation in Palestine and Kashmir and war in Korea. So be glad that all our scumbag oligarchs are doves – if the Russian regime was incorruptible, the mushroom clouds would already be blooming.

  50. Anyone remember this:

    “Putin demands proof over Iraqi weapons”

    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/oct/12/russia.politics

    That is why I like Putin, Craig… he stands up to the neocons.

    Video footage of this October 2002 press conference would also be interesting, I think.

  51. ‘Highly significant is the legislation just passed to award Russian nationality to ethnic Russians in former Soviet states. That is racially based legislation. It means for example that 40% of the population of Kazakhstan potentially become Russian citizens, with similar figures in the Baltic states. It is highly aggressive and designed to have destabilising potential.’

    You are way off beam here Craig.Firstly, the legislation was enacted 3 months ago.

    http://www.eurasianet.org/node/68309

    Secondly, Russian speakers from the former soviet space but born or resident outside the Russian Federation have always been able to acquire Russian citizenship; this nice guy for instance (Ukrainian born)has a choice of 4 passports-

    http://www.ibtimes.com/worlds-most-powerful-mobster-you-probably-never-heard-980488

    The new law however makes the process simpler, and should reduce the waiting time for a passport down to three months.

    Thirdly, nearly all European countries offer fast track citizenship to non residents who have ancestral links to the country but who don’t presently live there, or were born abroad. Germany has granted citizenship to tens of thousands of Volga Germans and Saxon Transylvanians in the last two decades. Romania offers citizenship to Romanian speakers in Moldova. There are hundreds of thousands of Irish passports held by Irish citizens born or living in the UK (and not just in NI). And of course you, should the ‘Yes’ campaign win in September, will doubtless expect Edinburgh promptly to grant you a Scottish passport, despite the fact you are Norfolk born, and were only permanently resident in Scotland over 30 years ago in your student days.

  52. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:56 pm

    I shall read the comments more thoroughly later this evening, but a cursory look at the first few already tells me that Craig has upset the usual West-hating (and therefore Putin-loving) crowd.

    I’m always pleased when Craig tells it like it is and rubs their noses in unpleasant truth. It must be very destabilising for the Eminences and Useful Idiots on here, who are unable to dismiss him with the usual knee-jerk cry of “troll!”.

    :)

  53. Uzbek in the UK

    22 Jul, 2014 - 4:59 pm

    Very well written Mr Murray. I agree with everything you said.

    Unfortunately some (mad western lefties) on this blog are blinded by Russian propaganda. What makes them look even more ridiculous is that this same people claim their distrust in western propaganda and present us with so called discoveries of western made conspiracies. And all at the same time swallowing Russian propaganda with very wide open mouth.

    None of these people I bid have been to Russia recently. None of them seen disparities which you mentioned. None of them came across someone they knew being murdered for various reasons ranging from speaking about social, economic or political problems to just having different Non-Slavic look. For these (mad western lefties) putin’s Russia is good just because it is anti-American/anti-Western. And yet everyone of these (mad western lefties) will not want (for the all money in the world) to live in Russia bearing Russian citizenship. These people (mad western lefties) using putin’s very own lingua are “fifth column” which represent danger and MUST be (according to putin’s address to the Duma) neutralised (exterminated in some cases) and shamed (publicly humiliated). Would they (mad western lefties) want this to be done to them? Why not? This is after all what their favourite world leader (putin) is calling his henchman to do with Russian “fifth-column”. No, wait. We live in different society. We do not do this here (not yet at least). And yet our society is bad and putin’s society is good.

    What s stupidity.

    Come on mad people. Get real.

  54. The East Ukranians might have one seized, smashed and disabled BUK AA launcher, incomplete, old, cannot track or reach the height the Malaysian Jet would normally have flown at, requires crew of highly trained technicians. The Ukranians are thought to have operational in or near the region some twenty-seven BUKs, against what exactly it is intended to defend is quite mysterious, the rebellious east have no planes except maybe something found in a barn or museum. The Ukranian ATC not only altered the planes course to take it through the conflict area, they also requested the plane fly lower to accomodate the BUK altitude range and the height ceiling of Ukraine’s ubiquitous fighter jets and their air-to-air weaponry.

    Balance of probabilities: Ukraine/NATO/US/UK set the plane up as a sitting or dead duck and took several shots, triangulation of crossfire and all that, it’s a goner. Subsequently Ukraine has seized civil ATC records, hampering all inquiry and faked audio recordings and probably other ‘evidence’ to blame anyone but themselves.

    A predictable course of events, we knew the NATO axis lost and would try something desperate and despicable, reverting to type with a frat-boy destructive tantrum. It changes nothing Ukraine will be sliced and diced from both east and west, whilst the population wither away, a demographic collapse, assisted by cumulative ingestion of food grown on Chernobyl station radioactively contaminated soil, that glorious ‘black’ soil discussed at length here recently, of the south east the recipient of fallout of everything up to and including Plutonium with a half-life of 28,000 years, infinity in the life of man, particularly heavily in May 1986.

    This Hammond looks shiftier than Hague ever did and that is saying something. Cameron as always looks radiant with machiavellian ecstasy and heading for a fall.

  55. ‘1.2 billion dollars incredibly happens to be the combined value of four of the World’s largest luxury yachts, which met together off Cap Ferrat and Antibes from 10 to 16 June this year. They are Dilbar, Madame Gu, Grand Bleu and Hermitage.’

    More on Shvidler here (owner of Grand Bleu)-

    http://www.forbes.com/profile/evgeny-eugene-shvidler/

    He is a UK resident and a US citizen.

    Is he subject to sanctions or asset freezes ? I think we should be told.

  56. @Uzbek: This was supposed to be about MH17, and it was the Western mainstream media that made it about Putin. I’m surprised that Craig has jumped on the bandwagon, and that people like yourself are relating this to Russian society. All societies have their advantages and disadvantages, and most governments, including the UK, it would appear, have ways of dealing with those who they perceive as threatening their control. Putin may be more authoritarian in his approach (hardly left wing!) but that is certainly no reason for blaming him for an event on another country’s soil before any evidence is available.

    Wasn’t Putin right about WMD in Iraq?

    And what is mad, western or loony about seeking the truth?

  57. Uzbek in the UK

    22 Jul, 2014 - 5:31 pm

    OldMark

    How is what you have described not “racially based legislation”? Just because one have Slavic look one can acquire Russian citizenship? Should not migration programmes be open for everyone (no matter colour of their skin) providing they have some set of skills that are needed for development just like in US, Canada, Australia?

    But no. Russian law decided to pre-select people of Slavic origin and cover only these people by their migration programme.

    But even this racially based legislation does only work at putin’s benefit. I have mentioned this earlier and mentioning this again. But actually for Slavs from Central Asia it takes much longer to get paperwork sorted than it took for Abkhazians and South Osetians to acquire Russian nationality (virtually over few weeks). Now one would argue that Russian legislation cover only Slavs (which it does in Central Asia) but people of non-Slavic origin (Abkhazians and South Osetians) were prioritised in this one singled out case. Why not then cover all other non-Slavs (Uzbeks, Tadjiks, Kyrgyzs).

    To add to this. I have received information from some credible sources confirming that applications from Crimean Tatars in Uzbekistan were not being accepted by (now) Russian Consulate. Of course all you aware what happened to Crimea recently. Crimean Tatars (who are still represented by many thousands in Central Asia) have in the past applied to immigrate to Crimea via Ukrainian Consulate. But since recent event in Crimea and Russian annexation of the peninsula Crimea Tatars turned to Russian Consulate which does not accept their applications. The question is WHY? It seems odd since Russia has announced to the world that Crimea was back to its mother (Russia) and since Russian Duma and putin himself sorted out all the relevant paperwork for Crime to become part of Russia. Interesting developments. Do not you think?

  58. “That is why I like Putin, Craig… he stands up to the neocons.”

    No matter that he is a mass murderer then. You “like” him. Whatever the fuck that means. Like you like tomatoes? Or Levi jeans perhaps?

    It seems you are so desperate to be saved you embrace any old mass-murdering black-shirted pig dog* because his PR says he is the enemy of your own hated masters.

    The truth is the Russian elites, the Western elites and all other elites, all shop together, all bank together, all holiday in the same luxury. They may squabble over spoils but their primary concern is self preservation. They may or may not hate each other but you can be 100% sure they hate you and me.

    Don’t be a mug. Putin is one of them. Russia is just another mafia state. There is no white knight coming to save you. Everything is PR.

    [*Apologies to pigs and dogs]

  59. The speed at which the Western media and presstitutes jumped to condemn Russia and demonise Putin, because of the MH17 incident is indeed worthy of Edward Louis Bernays, the relative of Sigmund Freud and author of the seminal book ‘Propaganda’. A favourite in Goebbels library.
    We have a tale here of demonization, deceit, distraction. These are all the precursors used against Saddam in Iraq, Assad in Syria, Qaddafi in Libya and against Iran.
    It must be obvious to even the dogs in the street that there is an agenda in place here. It does not take a genius to trace the originators of these dirty trick plays, it has become rather boring to see the sheeple fall in line each time with the ‘.message’. as espoused by the puppetmasters
    If it were a court of Law the lawyers would be disbarred and the judge would have declared a mistrial.
    The proof exists as to the culprits in this sad episode, It can be found in the voice recordings from the air traffic controllers at Kiev, in the Kiev radar tracking records, in the Russian civil and military radar tracking and in Satellite images from an American satellite which was immediately overhead at the time. Including the recordings from the aircrafts black box.
    There has been so much anti-Russian hysteria whipped up by the MSM it is dumbfounding.
    Intelligent people no longer succumb to the politically correct message as issued by the compromised Western media. The BBC obviously stays on message as promulgated from Washington as does their poodle Cameron.
    For a more balanced assessment of what is going on in Ukraine and the MH17 disaster check the attached;
    http://www.vineyardsaker.blogspot.mx/

  60. Uzbek in the UK

    22 Jul, 2014 - 5:35 pm

    Peacewisher

    So shall we now go ahead and trust putin on everything? Just because he did not buy American lie on Iraq, should we now embrace him as the most trustworthy person in the world? Should for instance we trust putin that people butchered by his Communist buddy Karimov in Andijan were terrorists?

  61. @Phil: Don’t patronise me! I wouldn’t like him if he was a mass-murderer like Bush or Blair. But he wasn’t! In fact he tried to stop the war against Iraq from happening. So who else to you see as “standing up to the neocons”? Or are you OK with what has happened in terms of war around the world since 1991?

  62. Lord Acton’s dictum has meaning here ” All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely. …” – so too with the West, Russia, Israel to mention a few giving meaning to this truism.

  63. @Uzbek: Glad we have a point of contact… the lie that caused hell on earth in Iraq, which still seems to be happening. He was also probably right about the lie that would have unleashed similar forces in Syria.

    I don’t trust him, probably because he is a politician. But the US is the bully in the playground, and someone standing up to that bully is surely to be admired… even though, looking at other dimensions, that person may be far from perfect.

  64. I think Mr Murray missed a category: those of us who don’t like to see fatal accident investigations mixed with politics.

  65. Unfortunately some (mad western lefties) on this blog are blinded by Russian propaganda.

    Indeed an eloquent start, by a Sane Righty Foreigner, whose jaundiced view has mother Russia in the pits of hell, with nothing good that is ever to be found in those heathen lands of netherworld.

    The all sane, all seeing, all wise Sane Righty Foreigner, verily knows that mad western lefties are all blind to the Russian propaganda, clearly mad western lefties have no sense, and no brains to see how blind they are then!

    And all at the same time swallowing Russian propaganda with very wide open mouth.

    This All Seeing, All Wise, and Everywhere present SRF even can see the open mouths of the mad western lefties, too.

    None of these people I bid have been to Russia recently. None of them seen disparities which you mentioned.

    The ASAWEPSRF pulls the trump card out of the deck, we the mad western lefties have never been to Russia, so our knowledge is incomplete and we are ignorant of all facts. This kind of empirical bollocksology would have the researchers walking into reactors, hanging on from high tension electricity cables, and crawling into the car engine to make sense of how these strange things work! How can anyone detect the temperatures of the surface of the sun without ever having dunked their thermometer once in the molten sun thingys?

    None of them came across someone they knew being murdered for various reasons ranging from speaking about social, economic or political problems to just having different Non-Slavic look.

    The Non-Slavic look, is a clue as to the visceral hatred of all things Russian, perhaps? But hey as any self respecting mad western lefty we won’t go there.

    For these (mad western lefties) putin’s Russia is good just because it is anti-American/anti-Western. And yet everyone of these (mad western lefties) will not want (for the all money in the world) to live in Russia bearing Russian citizenship. These people (mad western lefties) using putin’s very own lingua are “fifth column” which represent danger and MUST be (according to putin’s address to the Duma) neutralised (exterminated in some cases) and shamed (publicly humiliated). Would they (mad western lefties) want this to be done to them? Why not? This is after all what their favourite world leader (putin) is calling his henchman to do with Russian “fifth-column”. No, wait. We live in different society. We do not do this here (not yet at least). And yet our society is bad and putin’s society is good.

    What s stupidity.

    Well ASAWEPSRF further divines that none of the us mad western lefties will want to live in Russia too. Is there any end to the talents of this Uzbek in the UK?

    Well what have we learned then?

    Sweet FA but who cares? UITUK has had a good rant and rave, and is now feeling loads better about it all. Really if this is the calibre of rebuttal against Putin, he has no worries for sure!

    However just to puncture the aura of euphoria UZITUK is residing in ;

    Campaigners and charities could be classed as terrorists under wide laws

    Britain’s anti-terror laws are in danger of catching journalists, bloggers and other people they were never intended to cover, the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation has warned.

    How many agencies in UK are involved in domestic survailance?

    A- 6
    B- None! We are British and we don’t spy on people!
    C- 784 agencies

    Our ASAWEPSRF should know the answer already. He also should know that the queues for food banks are getting longer by the day, and fact that no one can go to these secret food banks without the referral of the government poverty adjudicators (social workers of yesteryears and current report writers and poverty inspectors) without their say so, no food from any food bank either.

  66. “I wouldn’t like him [Putin] if he was a mass-murderer like Bush or Blair. But he wasn’t! In fact he tried to stop the war against Iraq”

    Peacewisher
    Oh dear. With this you prove my point exactly. Read this.

  67. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 6:22 pm

    “So shall we now go ahead and trust putin on everything?”

    At least you’re consistent. Now shall we work on reading comprehension?

    This debate about Putin reminds me of the hue and cry; “Snowden the traitor” The point seems to have been deliberately ignored. This isn’t about personalities, unless you believe in the personhood of corporations, so ‘hero’ or ‘traitor’ are just words to distract attention away from misdeeds and criminality of Western ‘democracies’. I don’t care if Genghis Kahn arose from the grave to call out all the hypocrites using his tactics, covertly and pusiilanimously hawking their blood diamonds. The methodology may seem different. It’s not.

  68. I know all about Grosny, thank you very much. In 1999, that sort of destruction was really bad. I can’t condone bombing people (always an act of terrorism), but from what I remember much worse was happening in the days of Yeltsin.

    Grosny was awful, but was it any worse than the bombing of Belgrade by NATO. I honestly don’t know. Was it on the same scale as any of the shock and awe operations in Iraq? Certainly not!

    I’m not sure that Putin has used the Russian military too much since Grozny. From what I can remember they were attacked in Georgian provinces, so actions there in 2008 would have been self-defence.

    Speaking of Georgia, one of its offspring was the brutal dictator Stalin. If it wasn’t for Stalin, we’d probably all be living under the 1000 year Reich. I’ve seen UK headlines from 1945 calling Stalin’s troops “our glorious allies”.

    Enough for now…

  69. nevermind, it will happen anyway

    22 Jul, 2014 - 6:28 pm

    Nice novel for a future book, I shall wait what the investigators in Farnborough will pass us by, no doubt they will want to be fast efficient and open in what they are doing and the British establishment will, of course, have no input control or access to these ‘investigators,.

    Loved the bits about yachts, discussions and deals being made on arms metals and heroin, almost as if you have been on board, Craig.
    Are there any corroborative statements on these highly conspicuative meetings by oligarchs?

  70. For the sake of clarification, can any of the anti Putin front explain what standards of anglehood and agnelification does he ave to exhibit before they consider having a pint with him in the pub?

    The fact the Putin is being held to higher standard than the rest of the carpetbaggers is a bit of mystery too, can there be any explanation about that too?

    On one side we have the Porky-shencko the known inveterate liar and cheat, along with his sponsors the US, UK, and agents of the the later in EU, whom are know liars and warmongers, in the pay of the banksters and zionist vermin. In the other corner we have Putin, in any given pissing contest the baddie on our side way outweigh Putin hands down, yet to find the attacks on anyone pro Ptuin (is puzzling) any reason why is this to be the case?

  71. Peacewisher what an ironic name, you only want peace if Putin tells you to want peace.

  72. 5 videos the Israeli military wish you’d stop sharing on Facebook and Twitter | Yvonne Ridley

    http://yvonneridley.org/analysis-and-opinion/5-videos-the-israeli-military-wish-youd-stop-sharing-on-facebook-and-twitter/

  73. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 6:45 pm

    Craig; This post was just flypaper for Craig’s minions, because he can’t really believe this shit.

  74. Peacewisher
    “I know all about Grosny, thank you very much.”

    OK so did know that Putin was a mass murderer like Bush/Blair when you were saying he wasn’t a mass murderer like Bush/Blair. How odd.

    “Grosny was awful, but was it any worse than the bombing of Belgrade by NATO.”

    Fucking hell. You are actually asking if one massacre was “worse” than another? What a fucking question. Worse. Better. As if we are discussing brands of sunglasses.

    You know the answer Peacewisher. The answer is: they were both bad.

    You have to ask yourself how you can even get into a such a pickle to even ask such a question.

    Of course our government is a big, corrupt killing machine. But so is Russia.

    The wars continue exactly because people continue to choose their favourite war machines. I prefer this brand of elites over that brand. I will fight for this flag so my elites can get even richer. Come on Peacemaker. You see the through the PR churned out by our very own killing machine. Why do you think the Russians are any different?

    You don’t need to defend Putin to attack Obama. They are both the same problem that ails us.

  75. @Anon. Three examples, because two clearly wasn’t enough:

    1. Iraq…. would have been peace if Putin had been listened to, and 1 million lives wouldn’t have been lost. Many lives lost this year

    2. Libya… as above, but regime change not invasion so losses much smaller… but continue

    3. Syria… Putin was listened to, avoiding further bloodshed.

    I’m sure I can find more examples if you want them. Oh yes…. Belgrade, Kosovo.

  76. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 7:26 pm

    ‘Spetsnaz’? Nope. FBI. It’s all good ‘cuz Putin ‘bad’.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/mar/20/fbi-informant

    “Monteilh was involved in one of the most controversial tactics: the use of “confidential informants” in so-called entrapment cases. This is when suspects carry out or plot fake terrorist “attacks” at the request or under the close supervision of an FBI undercover operation using secret informants. Often those informants have serious criminal records or are supplied with a financial motivation to net suspects.

    In the case of the Newburgh Four – where four men were convicted for a fake terror attack on Jewish targets in the Bronx – a confidential informant offered $250,000, a free holiday and a car to one suspect for help with the attack.

    In the case of the Fort Dix Five, which involved a fake plan to attack a New Jersey military base, one informant’s criminal past included attempted murder, while another admitted in court at least two of the suspects later jailed for life had not known of any plot.

    Such actions have led Muslim civil rights groups to wonder if their communities are being unfairly targeted in a spying game that is rigged against them. Monteilh says that is exactly what happens. “The way the FBI conducts their operations, It is all about entrapment … I know the game, I know the dynamics of it. It’s such a joke, a real joke. There is no real hunt. It’s fixed,” he said”

  77. @Phil: I don’t see the current Red Army as a brutal killing machine, and I’m sure their main concern is defence in the “looking after your own territory”, rather than Orwellian sense. Grosny was terrible. Of course it was. However, give Putin credit for never repeating it. Blair was a serial offender. He did Iraq, Belgrade, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, and Iraq again. Cameron & Hollande did Libya, and were very disappointed to be outvoted regarding Syria.

    You are making Russia out to be as bad, if not worse, and that really doesn’t stand up to close scrutiny.

  78. Just read the Ukrainian SBU have confiscated and censored the tapes from the air traffic controllers.So that explains why we’ve heard nothing.
    So the evidence that could really help is all being kept secret by either Ukraine or the US.
    The Russians have probably their own tapes of the ATC conversations.
    There was a far fetched story in the beginning about an ATC guy called Carlos… a Spanish speaker who had been very active on Twitter about the incident just before the crash.
    The news that there was Ukrainian fighter up there begins to lend creedence to what he is purported to have tweeted. He also tweeted that the Defence Dept knew nothing but the Dept of Interior did.
    Well that’s another fine conspiracy you got me into!!!!

  79. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 7:44 pm

    I’m afraid that the entire investigation is fuster-clucked. Whether or not rod/pin type ballistics were used, the fuselage damage (one pic in particular) would have been revealing, but now neither side will achieve the ‘aha’ moment and the debate will continue to the point of exhaustion, just like the ‘grassy knoll’. One thing is for certain; someone directed the flight directly over a hotly contested zone, and no one (not even a professional pilot) could be so ignorant of the danger zone.

  80. Charles Crawford

    Jolly decent of you to help pull Craig out of the quicksand.

    If Russia was not at the beck and call of the NWO elite, how come Russia supported Assad against the NWO’s jihadists, thus ensuring the complete destruction of Syria for Israel instead of a swift regime change? Craig is right. They are all in it together.

    Ra Ra jolly good sport. Muslim’s being murdered by Muslims.
    British, 13 year old public schoolboys’ dreams. Play the Asians against the Arabs, the Shi’a against the Sunni and the US against Russia. Eton toff uses Russian President as fag on telephone.

    Waking up to the real world, all of the efforts of the US to subjugate South America have failed. All of the efforts of the US to subjugate Africa have failed. All of the efforts of the US to subjugate the Muslim world have failed and China is equally un-deceivable.

    You can pull the wool over some of the world some of the time, but you can’t pull the wool all the time. The false flags like MH370 and MH17 just mount up and draw ridicule on the losers’ desperate attempts to retain control in a changing world.

  81. Robert Lady dibs on top bunk in the Panama clink

    22 Jul, 2014 - 8:10 pm

    In S/2014/510 item 11 the UNSC “Demands that those responsible for this incident be held to account and that all States cooperate fully with efforts to establish accountability.”

    The obvious way to handle that is with a UNSC referral to the ICC. However, the ICC has latitude to define the situation in a way that makes sense to them. If the aerial incident can’t be judged in isolation from the conflict as a whole, ICC can assert jurisdiction over the whole can of worms, which, unsurprisingly, involves a lot of the same questions as Nicaragua v. United States of America. What fun, re-trying those questions, not in the ICJ but in the ICC! No end of tits in the wringer.

  82. Peacewisher
    “However, give Putin credit for never repeating it. Blair was a serial offender. He did Iraq, Belgrade, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, and Iraq again. Cameron & Hollande did Libya, and were very disappointed to be outvoted regarding Syria.”

    Do you even read what other people say as you churn out the same thing over and over?

    Yes Blair, Bush, Cameron, Obama, Hollande, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all are very bad people. However, so is Putin. They are all corrupt leaders of killing machines.

    I say they are all bad. You prefer one killer over others.

    You are an idiot. Your feeble minded analysis sustains all the killers and their killing machines.

  83. @Phil: I’m an idiot because I see an option for peace brokered by a previous offender?

    All political leaders seem to be corrupted by power. Some leaders don’t get totally corrupted or are pulled back from the brink, maybe for pragmatic reasons. Good for them. Hollande seems to have pulled back. Good for him! Why does appreciating a leader taking a principled stand against the neocons make me an idiot?

  84. Peacewisher

    You consider yourself in a position to declare the butcher of Grozny forgiven. Just one of the reasons why you are an idiot. See my previous comments for others.

  85. Who said the IRD is dead?

    Mind you, not much use creating a faux dissident if you can’t cash the chip when the going gets tough.

    And the going is getting tough: the US narrative is falling apart for the good and simple reason that it is a transparent pack of lies.

  86. Charles Crawford,

    Patently stupid post earlier.

    You are one of the few posters on this thread that has decided which side did the deed yet have,as yet,zero evidence for your position.

    Yet the vast majority of posters here are advocating caution until more facts emerge yet you lazily brand them conspiracy theorists.

    Sit back for one quiet minute and actually read the thread and consider your post.

    You’ve made a lazy and casual inversion of what’s being said by mosr posters here and,in fact,its your position,completely devoid of proof that most resembles conspiracy theory.

    Very poor Charles,very poor.

  87. It was interesting to see the RT journalist who resigned from RT on the Andrew Marr show. She said that she believed there was a place for a counter narrative, but she had over time lost patience with RT’s manipulation of that counter narrative which came to a head over MH17. I was amazed to hear Andrew Marr say that we all check out RT for its counter narrative from time to time.

    The internet is great because it allows us to read all the world’s newspapers (sometimes in rather odd google translations).

    It is a shame that we do not have our own strong counter narratives in this country. Of course they are always spun by whoever is able to exercise control, but we can but try.

  88. Craig’s chums at work in Odessa, albeit in a minor key:

    http://youtu.be/gWKByIuzkJk

    Now in a major key:

    http://youtu.be/H4dJRnI-X8Q

  89. @Fool: Well picked up. Andrew Marr was probably revealing more than he should when he admitted there was no viable counter narrative in the UK. How things have changed – plenty of counter narrative over Iraq in 2002-3, I seem to remember.

  90. Someone said this:-

    ” Ask a Jew if they are a Zionist and many will say no.

    Ask the non-Zionist Jews if they oppose what is being done in occupied Palestine and they will say yes.

    Ask those non-Zionist Jews to, even a tiny way, actively work for the end of the occupation and get every Jew except those whose families were there in the 1920’s out of Palestine and they will to a man or woman say no.

    Ergo most “non-Zionist& quote; Jews believe in Jewish supremacy.

    Ergo they are doomed eventually because they can fool some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time but they can’t fool all of the people all of the time.”

    Yet:-

    A. Is there any truth in this?

    B. Is there a disconnect between the actuality of the human rights abuses and the wiliness to call “pain” by its true name when there are undeniable human rights abuses?

    C. How does Zionism square with the rule of international law – or – can it ever square?

  91. @Phil: When did I say I forgave Grosny? I’m not going to flick back but do remember saying that in my opinion all bombing of civilians is terrorism… the world went mad in the 20th century, but I would have hoped that by the 21st political leaders would have learned from their military mistakes.

  92. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:06 pm

    Charles Crawford

    Thank you for your excellent post and I wish you would comment on this blog more often. You certainly hit the nail on the head this time.

    BTW pay no attention to poster “Jives” – it’s well known that he’s not very bright and an attention-seeker.

  93. Well done, Craig! Your excellent posts have left the mad leftists fulminating with rage. Just reading through the comments here is a real eye opener as to the mentality of these characters. They simply cannot accept that gangster Putin and his proxies are anything but a benign force in the world. They hate their own country and the West in general to the degree that they have blindly allowed themselves to be swayed by the most corrupt of foreign regimes. They deny all the evidence, but when the evidence becomes overwhelming they just make excuses. There’s really no cure for these types as we found out yonks ago. They will go down believing in Mother Russia or anyone who opposes the West, whatever their record.

  94. Ben-American Fascist Flechette

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:11 pm

    “How does Zionism square with the rule of international law ”

    By utilizing the Law the way any lawyer worth his salt would; By shaping it as they go.

    Take for example Cast Lead where non-military targets like bulldozers and water tenders were destroyed by design. They managed to get concessions from HRW that if such items could be used in the future for military purpose, then it was ok.

    Kinda like the idea of ‘pre-crime’. It all depends on whether you can afford the best lawyers.

  95. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:19 pm

    Gordon (re Radek Sikorski)

    “A more right-wing Zionist prick you cannot imagine.”
    ______________________

    Why “Zionist”, Gordon?

    Is it because he’s married to the Anne Applebaum you mentioned, who’s Jewish?

    If that’s your argument, then you’re an ignorant c**t.

  96. pete fairhurst

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:24 pm

    Craig, don’t you think that if the AngloZionist Empire had proof that it was the Russians, or their proxies in Eastern Ukraine, that downed MH17, then they would have released it by now? Where are the satellite images? Where is the radar info?

    But all they spout is hot air, emphatic assertions with zero actual evidence. Just like they did about the Syrian chemical weapons last year. And of course we all now know that their claims then were utterly false.

    I am a great admirer of your work, but in this case your prejudices seem to have got the better of you.

    I agree with Salford Lad; for a more balanced view you should look at this blog: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/
    You would be well served to study The Saker in some detail Craig, his Ukraine archive is extensive and compelling. You would learn a lot more about Ukraine than you appear to know just now.

  97. On the subject of pseudo-dissidence, not to mention the Unionist-BBC onslaught against Scottish independence, here’s the establishment’s old friend – last seen waving a Ukrainian flag in the general direction of a Russian conductor – calling upon Alex Salmon to denounce, get this, “homophobia in the Commonwealth”:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28425024

    The Peter Tatchell Foundation sounds increasingly like the Ford Foundation.

  98. Habbabkuk (La vita è bella) !

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:29 pm

    Anon

    “They deny all the evidence, but when the evidence becomes overwhelming they just make excuses.”
    ___________________

    Good post, Anon.

    You omitted to mention that, on past evidence (Craig’s previous posts on Ukraine/Russia), the loonies will not stop at making excuses – they will accuse Craig of being a SIS/CIA/neocon stooge, or angling for a job at the FCO, or of being mad, or even that he’s going to lose his wife (numerous previous comments on those threads refer).

    ******************

    Habbabkuk against racsim, Putin-worship and…lunacy.

  99. diastuckhere

    22 Jul, 2014 - 9:32 pm

    Shame how these missiles got everybody so jumpy that a crappy little Grad near Ben-Gurion has got the Zionazis all bottled at home like Saddam was. No flights out of Tel Aviv. Don’t laugh, it’s not funny.

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