I was called a traitor by a Conservative MEP in a committee meeting of the European Parliament to which I was giving eyewitness evidence on the UK’s complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. Doubtless that is recorded in the minutes of the meeting, which means I am marked down on a forest of European Parliament paper as a traitor in each of the European Union’s 24 official languages.
Nobody turned a hair, least of all me. There were some giggles as the Tory MEP immediately walked out of the meeting, which was viewed as childish. But nobody thought of it as way outside the normal levels of political discourse. Indeed it was quite mild by European parliamentary standards. It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor. I am not scared of names.
My Scottish readers will have realised that this disquisition on treachery is a reference to the Labour Party’s published dossier of evil cybernats. The majority of those cited qualified as evil because of use of the word traitor. I am devastated I did not get included. I am unsure that my ego will ever recover.
It seems to me that, in an argument which revolves around what constitutes a nation, the idea of treachery to the nation is one that logically is bound to intrude, on all sides. Indeed it can be shown to intrude into the entire discourse around unionism and nationalism over centuries. I have used the term myself.
It seems to me context is important. There is a legitimate discourse on whether treachery to either the United Kingdom or to Scotland is involved in the independence conundrum. To make plain that some consider a position or act as traitorous has a place in robust political debate. I deplore the idea that politics must be reduced to genteel commonplaces over tiny areas of disagreement. Passion is important. But to imply violent retribution is different, and comes under bullying and threat.
“Traitor” should not be shunned like a racist epithet. It carries a meaning which is important.
Tunisia explained: Consider bombing ISIS in Syria, says Fallon today.
Ah telt ye: The West want Syria. The ISUS proxy hasn’t done it, and neither did the East Ghouta gas-attack false flag, so let’s go in their on the back of a Lone Gunman massacre.
Hut!
I didn’t ignore it Clark. I read the entire link. Significantly, 91% of Israeli Jews support Israel’s campaign against the people of Gaza:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/183441#.VZRckRtVikp
They also re-elected a hawkish neoZionist on a ticket of hatred.
Clark: It’s inarguable that those Israelis not in favour of the various assaults on the impoverished, defenseless captives of Gaza, were treated as traitors and cowards – much the same as Americans not in favour of the assault on Iraq at the time.
“Protective Edge” and so on were enthusiastically supported. Each new assault was of course regrettable, a final necessary act, even though Israeli leaders snickered that “mowing the lawn” was a good thing every couple of years.
RobG: I’m surprised you think that demented state of Israel actually wants peace. There is no evidence (other than empty, self-serving assertion) for such a view.
One of the problems with opinion polls is who finances them. Not all are seeking to have a weighted result but some are. When De Beers were stealing the wealth of Namibia in diamonds the people monitoring the unprincipled operation were De Beers personnel. Whether a majority in Israel believes in integration, peace and mutual trust is hard to establish. I suspect not.
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“RIP Sir Nicholas Winton indeed. The mother of a close relative of mine by marriage, was one of the children saved by Winton, so her daughter wouldn’t be here now if it had not been for him.”
The parents from Czechoslovakia of a Jewish friend of mine were also rescued by Sir Nicholas Winton apparently. Lovely person.
lysias, 12:13 am; that may be the same demo; I don’t know – I didn’t write the piece I quoted from. But it shows that there was at least one such demonstration, albeit let down by the authorities.
It is helpful for the pro-conflict propagandists to minimise, marginalise and ignore the pro-peace movement in Israel, just the same as everywhere else. Do we expect the corporate media to exaggerate or minimise the numbers on our own anti-war demonstrations? What happens every time, and why should Israel be any different?
Glenn, RobG doesn’t think Israel wants peace. He merely got confused thinking I was a Hasbara propagandist and was too embarrassed to acknowledge his confusion.
Daniel, it’s exactly the same trick as politicians use in the UK, and probably everywhere – more of the electorate will support a war when it is actually being fought. Just like Thatcher avoided using diplomacy, instead sending the Task Force to the Falklands to boost her electoral popularity. Just like support for the 2003 Iraq war almost doubled after the war had been started. In Israel, Gaza is an available target at any time the trick is repeated remorselessly. Humans can be manipulated. We all think we’re immune but none of us are.
“Whether a majority in Israel believes in integration, peace and mutual trust is hard to establish. I suspect not.”
As Israel is formally designated a Jewish State, and the Israeli Jews within it re-elected a neoZionist fanatic, I think the claims that the majority believe in integration, peace and mutual trust, is beyond fanciful.
Clark, this is much more than periodic incidences’ of pre-war government propaganda. Not only is it the case that Israeli Jews are brainwashed from a young age at school, but the perimeters of debate in Israel are extremely limited. There isn’t, for example, any conception of radical left politics within the Israeli discourse of the kind we are used to experiencing here. At best, far left and anti-Zionist views are marginalized within the universities and, at worst, they are simply not tolerated within society in general – except that is if you are prepared for a jack-boot to the head.
Craig, can you please confirm whether you knew that Uzbeks were working with americans and the british on legal aspects of transportation of the foreign military cargo and personnel through Uzbekistan’s territory long before the Afghan war and before 9/11. The man who did the draft writing of this legal document in Uzbek ministries in 2000 told me he never understood why the Uzbek government would need such a legal background but until the invasion of Afghanistan and dislocation and transportaion of american and british units through his country. How did Uzbeks know in 2000 that the americans would come and go through their country in 2001? The Afghan war started after 9/11 2001, blaming the BenLaden Taliban for the attack. He says that under act legal document was adopted and approved by the Uzbek Cabinet of ministers in November 2000.
Lysias features
are you the same Lysias… that writes on Mondoweiss
Whistleblowers are not traitors. These are the traitors, those who work on behalf of the surveillance of the populace under Chatham House rules. This reveals Google and Apple involvement.
http://loucollins.uk/2015/05/24/apple-and-google-just-attended-a-confidential-spy-summit-in-a-remote-english-mansion/
Other people are trying to help ordinary individuals fight back and this video shows you how to take out the metallic strip on the battery of your phone, the strip that holds all your personal data.
[mod: link removed; dangerous and misleading. Phone batteries can start fires]
” NATO bombed Sirte into oblivion. Pictures all over the web. How many people did they kill? You will have difficulty producing a figure because NATO refuses to count. ”
Then how can you be so sure? Sirte was fought over for over a month but the vicious street fighting caused no damage or civilian casualties? Loyalists put the total number of civilians killed at 2,100 the opposition at 800.
What Daniel wrote @1.30 am is borne out simply by watching the documentary “Defamation”, by an Israeli who wanted to find out about modern anti-semitism, and in the process revealed a lot about the nature of Israeli society;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_xGBU0ljUY
Mod, please delete my comments on this thread.
“Lysias features
are you the same Lysias… that writes on Mondoweiss”
____________________
He is.
The Wikipedia article on “mondoweiss” is very interesting.
Why has this thread – as so many other previous ones – morphed into a thread about Israel/Palestine?
Those hoping for a resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian issue will be deeply depressed to learn that Tony Blair* was discussing the matter with Egypt’s current dictator Sisi only yesterday, having previously been to check with Bibi that that would be all right. Looks like Gaza better get its defences together again. Such as they are.
*Presumably having gone through his large cupboard full of hats and selected the one inscribed ‘Chairman: European Council of Tolerance and Reconciliation’, an overtly Zionist antisemitism watchdog attempting to look as if it is an EU organisation. It isn’t. For those who don’t read the news, Blair is now its chairthing.
Abe Rene; “Mod, please delete my comments on this thread.”
What with the unsolicited Mod deletions, and now this new trend for retroactive self-deletions requests, I think that threads are becoming a chaos of unrelated comments.
“Other people are trying to help ordinary individuals fight back and this video shows you how to take out the metallic strip on the battery of your phone, the strip that holds all your personal data. ”
DO NOT MESS WITH PHONE BATTERIES THEY ARE MADE OUT OF LITHIUM AND ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.
I do not know what the metal strip is for but it certainly doesn’t hold information about you. It may be part of the heat sensor for the overcharge circuit. If lithium batteries are overcharged or short circuited they will burst into flames, they can burn your house down.
The very sinister European Council on Tolerance and Reconciliation:
http://www.europeandignitywatch.org/pl/codzienny/detail/article/double-standards-on-tolerance-promoted-in-european-parliament.html
In which we see that ‘tolerance’ no longer includes the expression of opinions, and ‘reconciliation’ is without form and void.
What Fred said, in spades. Just don’t. And if you feel your privacy is of so much importance, don’t use a bloody phone in the first place. ‘They’ don’t need a magic metal strip to work out what you’re up to.
Habbabkuk; “Why has this thread – as so many other previous ones – morphed into a thread about Israel/Palestine?”
I think it was Glenn_uk @ 1st Jul 4.51pm who first introduced I/P here, but due to all the deletions it’s not possible to be sure.
The polls on the first link provided by Clark (above) show that in March 2015 66.7 percent of the Israeli general public were in favour of peace talks with the Palestinians.
I think any mention of Tony Blair sits well in a discussion of traitor knaves. Not guilty.
Technicolour; “The polls on the first link provided by Clark (above) show that in March 2015 66.7 percent of the Israeli general public were in favour of peace talks with the Palestinians.”
As has been pointed out before, of course most people will say they are in favour of peace, or peace talks, but when pressed on what terms, only 9% were prepared to go back to the legal 1967 borders; and again from the same poll, the question, “What do you consider to be the Palestinian’s long term aspirations?”, produces “Conquer Israel and destroy the Jewish population” as the most popular view, followed by “Conquer Israel”.
“
If Blair is secretly negotiating with Hamas, that’s far more sensible and apparently altruistic than his general behaviour. (Craig)
Innit? But my guess is Israel is more scared of Daesh than Hamas, and just wants to make sure the two don’t link up. Hence, I think the new ‘peace’ move by Blair. This will put some more jam-tomorrow on the table, Fatah will fall for it, and Gaza will remain isolated, while a recent slackening in Israeli vindictiveness re. Gaza suggests something resembling a carrot is being waved at Hamas itself.
Not that Blair’s talks with Hamas were all that secret. And Blair is quite effective in keeping his movements quiet, with the exception, absurdly, of those in and out of Cairo airport.
So peace loving that the Israelis voted back a war criminal who lusts for Armageddon.
“God appointed America to save the world in any way that suits America. God appointed Israel to be the nexus of America’s Middle Eastern policy and anyone who wants to mess with that is a) anti-Semitic, b) anti-American, c) with the enemy, and d) a terrorist.”
John LeCarré, London Times, January 15, 2003
John Goss, please, please, please start doing some fact-checking before you post.
Yesterday you linked to some place quoting “The International Commission regarding Crimes of the Church and State” or something, which turned out to be a lone nutter who tries to look like an official UN court. Among other things, he tried to “represent” native Canadians in a load of “cases” that he fabricated – they had to take legal action to get rid of him. Today you have a video from a Spanish Facebook page on how to ruin your ‘phone battery and start a fire.
Please, John, please! There is a huge amount of utter nonsense on the Internet; please stop bringing it onto this blog.
Secret talks with Hamas: Huffington Post….linked here 20th June.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2015/02/an-apology/comment-page-2/#comment-534158