I was called a traitor by a Conservative MEP in a committee meeting of the European Parliament to which I was giving eyewitness evidence on the UK’s complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. Doubtless that is recorded in the minutes of the meeting, which means I am marked down on a forest of European Parliament paper as a traitor in each of the European Union’s 24 official languages.
Nobody turned a hair, least of all me. There were some giggles as the Tory MEP immediately walked out of the meeting, which was viewed as childish. But nobody thought of it as way outside the normal levels of political discourse. Indeed it was quite mild by European parliamentary standards. It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor. I am not scared of names.
My Scottish readers will have realised that this disquisition on treachery is a reference to the Labour Party’s published dossier of evil cybernats. The majority of those cited qualified as evil because of use of the word traitor. I am devastated I did not get included. I am unsure that my ego will ever recover.
It seems to me that, in an argument which revolves around what constitutes a nation, the idea of treachery to the nation is one that logically is bound to intrude, on all sides. Indeed it can be shown to intrude into the entire discourse around unionism and nationalism over centuries. I have used the term myself.
It seems to me context is important. There is a legitimate discourse on whether treachery to either the United Kingdom or to Scotland is involved in the independence conundrum. To make plain that some consider a position or act as traitorous has a place in robust political debate. I deplore the idea that politics must be reduced to genteel commonplaces over tiny areas of disagreement. Passion is important. But to imply violent retribution is different, and comes under bullying and threat.
“Traitor” should not be shunned like a racist epithet. It carries a meaning which is important.
The Resident Invigilator’s repeated references to Mondoweiss suggest that there may be some truth in the claims of some people posting here that he posts from Tel Aviv.
Bingo Lysias!
He went quiet after my Q.
He seems to post here a lot too. Professionally? Hhmm I would think so.
Habba, talking of Iran (which has the fourth largest oil reserves in the world), the present Shia government in Iran came about because of more American and British meddling back in the 1950s…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
Not conspiracy theory, but fact.
America is now totally independent with its own oil (due to fracking). The murder and mayhem caused in the Middle East by USUK is entirely for corporate profit.
And boy, would they like to get their hands on Iran’s oil reserves. It’s the neocon wet dream, which is why they are doing everything possible to take out Assad in Syria, and who cares how many people get butchered in the process.
Do you have anymore tales from Alice down the rabbit hole?
America’s power depends on the dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency and other countries’ need for oil produced by countries that are dependent on America. The dollar’s status as the world’s reserve currency depends on the need to pay for oil in petrodollars. So of course the U.S. is interested in Iran’s oil reserves.
The change in U.S. policy towards Iran in 1953 (Truman was friendly towards Mossadegh, received him in the White House in late 1951, and opposed British suggestions that he should be toppled) was a result of the power of Big Oil and of the Dulles brothers (partners in the Wall Street law firm of Sullivan & Cromwell, whose clients had financial interests in Iran) within the Republican Eisenhower administration.
RobG – a big part of the wider Israeli plan is of course divide and conquer.
Sunni vs Shiite. It’s been very successful.
Introduce some Wahabis and Alawites too.
Now there is a mix.
Order from chaos.
Q for you:
Why have ISIS or whatever they’re called this week attacked Israel?
Yes, as the Spectator article linked to by our Irish-Amrican friend says, the late Hugh Trevor-Roper – perhaps we should refer to hum as the late Baron Dacre of Glanton? – enjoyed having a go at the Scots.
Which reminds me of a pastiche I occasionally re-read (not on a Kindle, though – they are for dilettantes!) on the Scots by the late, great Anthony Powell (yes, yes, I know Craig doesn’t like Anthony Powell, but never mind).
“Caledonia”‘s a rather cruel pastiche but technically superb and very, very funny. Here are a few extracts (I cannot reproduce the frequent italics but they are part of the pastiche and used to good effect) – enjoy!
The more erudite amoung readers will soon work out the full names of the people referred to.
“Pacing with bagpipe in a bosky Square,
One morn a Piper rent the vernal air,
Dispelling by his savage, baleful Strains
That Freudian Pageantry, which Night-time gains.
(He wore a garb deprived of all amenity,
Save for vile jest and Smoking-Room obscenity.)
………
Alack! They ever stream through ENGLAND’S door
To batten on the Rich, and grind the Poor,
With furtive Eye, and eager, clutching hand
They pass like locusts through the Southern Land;
And line their purses with the yellow Gold,
Which for each Scotchman, London’s pavements hold,
And in return, no matter where you find ’em
They brag of Scotland, now left safe behind ’em.
What are this Race whose Pride so rudely burgeons?
Second-rate Engineers and obscure Surgeons,
Pedant-Philosophers and Fleet Street hacks,
With ev’ry Quality that Genius lacks:
Such Mediocrity was ne’er on view,
Bolster’d by tireless Scottish Ballyhoo –
Nay! In two Qualities they stand supreme;
Their Self-advertisement and Self-esteem.
………..
But Nationalism’s Slogan sounds at hand
Throughout this sparsely populated Land.
Jacobite Dreams M-CK-NZ–‘S Lools engender:
A New Prince Charlie? (Or an Old Pretender?)
Should ever Scotchmen Scotchmen rule again,
For famed M-CD-N-LD they’ll not ask in vain;
Fewer such Statesmen ENGLAND might be better for,
Confued of Mind; no less confused of Metaphor.
And cheerless R–TH, unparalleled Enormity
Of Scottish Prudery and Nonconformity;
Of all his Race scarce one can we desire less,
Teatotal Despot of the ambient Wireless.
……….
Let all retrace their steps across the Border!
Yes! Everyone! From L-NKL-T-R to L–D-R!
Back to that Northern ATHENS, where men seek,
With Gaelick Minds to live a life that’s Greek.
And Home again, to Presbyteries and Manses,
Must flock the simpering Tribe of Scottish Nancies:
And haunt once more, with Voices high and squeaky,
The foetid lanes and byways of Auld Reikie,
And Moor and Mountain, Loch and Glade and Glen,
Take back the Picti, fabled Painted Men;”
@SingleObservation
2 Jul, 2015 – 7:47 pm
Can you give me a credible news link that shows ISIS have attacked Israel?
(at least it will spare us from Habba’a poetry quotes and blatant attempt to drown out the conversation)
A quick search will show folks that if anything, Israel have been aiding ISIS.
Rob, apologies freudian slip. They have not attacked Israel. Obviously!
Oh, and Habba, I have a first edition of Hugh Trevor Roper’s ‘Last Days of Hitler’. Whatever history makes of Roper, I’m sure that first edition will keep me in wine for some time to come.
DT has a funny sketch on what to call IS. . .
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11714295/Sketch-MPs-want-to-defeat-the-terrorists-in-Syria.-They-just-arent-sure-what-theyre-called….html
Howsabout folks IS = IsraeliSaudis ?
No worries, SingleObservation.
I hope you stick with the conversation; the more voices the better.
It’s very strange how U.S. government sources insist on calling ISIS “ISIL”, when virtually no one else uses that nomenclature.
My Kindle currently holds 245 books, some of them of great length (complete works of various major authors each counting as one book). Far from being merely for dilletantes, a Kindle allows a person to carry an enormous amount of reading in little space and with little weight. Great for when you travel.
SingleObservation/Puzzled/English Knight etc etc
Side-stepping again, Mary. Still, important link.
Not goose stepping.
Craig,
You said this:-
” It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor”
And – I you are seeking more praise from me – you won’t get it this time round.
You are a historian. As you well know, with just a very few examples from the most recent modern era ( Martin Luther King – ‘traitor’?);( Nelson Mandela – ‘terrorist’?). And so we could go on and on. Let us go a little more – Edward Snowden – Julian Assange?
So – Craig Murray – que? – huh? – duh?
CB
“My Kindle currently holds 245 books, some of them of great length (complete works of various major authors each counting as one book).”
_________________
One would expect nothing less than “major authors” in an Oxford Greatsman’s Kindle.
Technicolour; “Side-stepping again”
Yes I think that’s exactly what you are doing by going on about General Elections; Clark linked to a Poll which actually shown the opposite of what both he & you claimed it shown.
On the there lead questions;
“Do you support or oppose the Saudi Peace Plan?, 67% of Israelis said No, 21% said Yes
“What do you consider to be Israel’s long term aspirations?”, only 9% stated “Withdraw to the 1967 borders”, the majority view of 33% was for a partial withdrawal from the Occuppied Territories, coupled with security guarentees also.
“What do you consider to be the Palestinian’s long term aspirations?”, 43% majority said “Conquer Israel and destroy the Jewish population” followed by 18% who said “Conquer Israel; so 61% believe the Palestinians want to completely destroy Israel.
To compare these Israeli views specifically on the Palestine Issue, to nonsense about austerity & general elections, is either delibrate obfuscation or a case of simple-mindedness.
CORRECTION:-
” …I you are seeking more praise from me…”
So – are you seeking more praise from me?
RobG
“Oh, and Habba, I have a first edition of Hugh Trevor Roper’s ‘Last Days of Hitler’. Whatever history makes of Roper, I’m sure that first edition will keep me in wine for some time to come.”
______________________
Well, they’re not that expensive, judging from Abebooks.com
But if you drink cheap plonk…… 🙂
@Lysias
2 Jul, 2015 – 8:34 pm
You’ll no doubt have noticed how the ‘Daesh’ meme (or whatever it is) has now completely taken over.
The trolls, the loons, the psychos are now denying that al-Qaeda (funded and armed by USUK) and ISIS (funded and armed by USUK) didn’t really exist, and now it’s the Daesh who are coming to get us.
DA DA DAH!
Quick, quick, hide under the stairs! (and give away all your civil liberties to a totalitarian government)
Habbabkuk “A future govt should put him and PM Tsipras on trial for treason.”
Au contraire – what, for example, happened to this?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11058608/IMF-chief-Christine-Lagarde-placed-under-investigation-in-400m-fraud-and-corruption-case.html
And here’s Stiglitz on why he would vote ‘no’:
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jun/29/joseph-stiglitz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum
Short email to 6 Pilgers….”he does 6 times better than Pilger for good causes”…read and weep…
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1435868326.html
July 2, 2015, 9:18 pm
Mr Snow,
I read your ‘Snowmail’ tonight: “Should British airstrikes against IS in Syria be considered?” (1)
Although not being surprised by your total, 100% capitulation to the narrative on terrorism that comes straight from the establishment and powerful (who donated you a Bafta Fellowship Award last year), I think you ought to correct your crony, Michael White, who said you do:
“more good for progressive attitudes than half a dozen John Pilgers.” (2)
“Progressive attitudes”? Well, in reality, you would never find John Pilger shilling like your abysmal “Should British airstrikes against IS in Syria be considered?” piece.
Actually, while you’re at it, you might consider apologising to Pilger too, for not pulling up Michael White on his ridiculous and insulting comparison.
Ed Murray.
(1) Snowmail
Should British airstrikes against IS in Syria be considered?
As the bodies of nine British victims of the Tunisian beach massacre were being flown home this afternoon, MPs discussed whether military action against Islamic State militants should be extended to Syria. As part of the response to the attacks in Tunisia, Defence Secretary Michael Fallon told the Commons that extremists should be targeted at source. Our Political Editor Gary Gibbon will be looking at whether there is now political appetite for bombing militant positions in Syria. So what is the extent of Islamic State extremists’ territorial control and who is doing what to stop their advances? Our Chief Correspondent Alex Thomson is on the case.
(2) Media Lens shows it doesn’t get the whole picture
http://www.theguardian.com/global/2012/jan/27/media-lens-picture-michael-white
Is this man a poker player ?;
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4675174,00.html
And what to make of this ?;
http://www.lbc.co.uk/tunisia-gunmen-eyewitness-tells-lbc-of-explosions-111941
“Not goose stepping.”
You are having a laugh. Answer the question:
The fact remains that you cited the re-election of Netanyahu, with 25 percent of the vote, as a condemnation of ‘Israelis’: how do you feel about condemning every one of the British, including yourself, since 26 percent of whom voted Blair back in?
You, Macky are just lying. To repeat, the polls on the first link provided by Clark (above) show that in March 2015 66.7 percent of the Israeli general public were in favour of peace talks with the Palestinians.
The rest of the polls you quote are a ) nuance b) up for negotiation c) opinion about ‘the other side’ and their position.
“What do you consider to be Israel’s long term aspirations?”, only 9% stated “Withdraw to the 1967 borders”, the majority view of 33% was for a partial withdrawal from the Occuppied Territories, coupled with security guarentees also.
“What do you consider to be the Palestinian’s long term aspirations?”, 43% majority said “Conquer Israel and destroy the Jewish population” followed by 18% who said “Conquer Israel; so 61% believe the Palestinians want to completely destroy Israel.
What the devil do you gain, apart from encouraging stupid non-thinkers, by pushing your line?
“The fact remains that you cited the re-election of Netanyahu, with 25 percent of the vote, as a condemnation of ‘Israelis’: how do you feel about condemning every one of the British, including yourself, since 26 percent of whom voted Blair back in?”
That’s an unfair comparison.
” “By the way, to break a blockade is illegal under international law.
Are you saying that it was illegal for the U.S., before it entered either of the two world wars, to send shipping to Britain (and France and Russia)?”
______________________
Which blockade were the Americans breaking in WW1 Lysias?
I’d always thought that it was the UK which was trying to enforce a blockade of the Central Powers in WW1 but perhaps I haven’t read enough sufficiently “major” authors on the subject…..
“That’s an unfair comparison.”
?