I think you can measure the death of democracy by the sheer audacity of the propaganda that government can get away with. Michael Fallon today on the Marr programme churned out the “70,000 moderate rebels” lie with a smooth bland face, and mentioned only the Free Syrian Army when pressed on who they were exactly. This is dishonesty on an epic scale.
But the really breathtaking one was to follow. Fallon claimed that the UK had killed hundreds of ISIL militants by bombing in Iraq and caused not one single civilian casualty. This risible claim had appeared in the Daily Mail last week, which is to be expected. But that a government minister can state such an absolutely ludicrous lie before a major BBC journalist without being seriously pushed on the matter, really does say a great deal about what kind of “democracy” the UK now is.
As does the fact that a substantial number of MPs of the official “opposition” have spent the weekend actively colluding with government ministers to forward the government’s militarist agenda.
I am proud to say that Scotland seems largely immune from the prevalent jingoism. The idea that bombing Raqqa will prevent terrorist attacks in Europe is plainly so nonsensical, that it is hard to know whether people like Fallon have actually managed to convince themselves of it or not. What this all will do, of course, is reinforce the military/security state that the UK has become.
I have no doubt that the Iraq War was one factor in making the people of Scotland realise that the UK is not an entity that matches their aspirations for the way a state should behave. Splitting the UK is a process. This incomprehensible Westminster bloodlust for bombing will drive the division wider. As will the whole ambience of the Etonian government and the peculiar social behaviour of its inner group, as even our coy media is hinting at in its coverage of the Shapps/Clarke group.
I can sense Independence coming close with every new morning.
As the need to enter Syria increases so do the lies. Syria is in a state of chaos,with Western backed rebels split and fighting each other, and fighting pro-Assad forces.
Meanwhile Saudi Arabia is funding anti-Assad fighters, and on the other side Iran is funding pro-Assad fighters, to add to the mayhem the Kurds are fighting pro-Assad forces. Russia is fighting anti-Assad rebels, and the rebels who split from the rebels, (ISIS).
Now David Cameron wants us to join the melee, not only would we be bombing the pro-assad forces, we’d be bombing the rebels (ISIS) who split from the rebels we backed in the first place, whilst trying to dodge Russian forces in the process.
It’s all clear as mud.
Craig….Should we be worried about an attack on Edinburgh? Last Sunday a Tory Mp asked Alex Salmond if he would change his mind if there was an attack on Edinburgh. My worry is that something could take place that would not only gain support for war but would kill the support forIndependence.
Fallon is cashing in on war and weapons big time. He is a terrorist who promotes war. He is lyng for a substantial remuneration.
Watching Fallon this morning was bizarre. The guy was almost frothing at the mouth about the prospect of bombing Syria. He was even suggesting that the bombs can tell the difference between a jihadist and an ordinary citizen. Why Marr didn’t pin him down on that fairy tale was probably the most bizarre part of Fallon’s sales pitch. It was as if you could see Fallon’s cock hardening at the thought of military action.
Why don’t they “follow the money” that will really reveal who is funding ISIS, ISIL, Daesh or whatever the fuck they call themselves. Are they frightened as to what that might reveal. Or do they, as I suspect already know who fund these people?
ISIS are an urban combat army, they are highly mobile and displace frequently. How exactly do you “precision” bomb an army like that? In all probabability these air strikes are doing not a lot more than destroying perfectly good desert
Anyway, ground forces will always be needed to hold territory, establish safe zones and narrow areas of enemy operation. Air strikes on their own are like lobbing a brick through a window, then running away.
Sorry for the typos!
Mr M’s post and the ensuing comments oblige us to believe something
strange: that they care deeply about the fate of strangers two
thousand miles away. It is instructive to compare these expression of
sympathy with the commentators’ sentiments towards a people who are
culturally and geographically close to them.
Their attitude to their brethren in Northern Ireland is clear: they
despise them and support the ethnic cleansing currently in progress.
The Scots, even more than the English, sent their own to hold down a
recalcitrant people; and now that these allies, their own flesh and
blood, have outlived their usefulness, they are a nuisance to be
disposed of.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. Enlightened opinion,
within living memory, has turned into wholehearted support of the
interests of alien peoples combined with hatred of their own. The
history of Western Europeans will be a source of wonder to future
chroniclers for the nature and speed of its end.
have we targeted ISIS position in Libya, now having vast swaithes of it under their control, including the sweet crude bought by the world which is flowing again.
This war has been made up for us to advance the war on terror justification to control resources in the ME, to favor gas coming from our controlled ME to feed and increasingly energy hungry Europe, before we get used to Russian gas.
Its an economic threat to Russia as much as it is a matter of hatred for the Saudi’s.
How do we control IS in this ‘war’?
By interfering in the finances and arms logistics of Saudi Arabi, Qatar, Turkey, ensuring that these ‘moderates’ don’t get paid every month. By not buying Saudi/Libya’s IS oil and by leaving the theater of war to the multiple actors already busy creating havoc amongst civilians.
Is this guy joking? Ask yourself why are our political class are so ‘scared’ of being moral and rational? How can he compare WW2 with Syria?
“I don’t think we should be scared of acting because of the past. Intervention in Iraq was a mistake, not intervening in Germany before WW2 was a mistake. The past can back both sides. It should be solely based on what the issue is now and what should be done now.”
Leaving them alone isn’t an option in my opinion.
A. Refugees will continue to come to Europe. A journey fraught with risk.
B. These are extremists, by definition their views and actions are extreme. Im not sure we can trust that they would leave us be. They see the west as their natural enemies (I agree through some fault of our own).
c. They kill many innocent people in the middle east. You’re against intervention in some part due to the risk to innocent civilians. I think there is more risk to them with ISIS in control.
Forgot the main point.
And by using all our powers in the UN and amongst our allies to initiate a cease fire, and forwarding a comprehensive political plan to bring back civilian rule in a Syria full of our arms and full of strange men with angry hearts.
However are they going to get back those sophisticated arms which will be sold to the highest bidders? an arms amnesty has got to be part of the cease fire.
PS this article, from April 2015, should have been with my previous post
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/libyas-biggest-crude-oil-export-terminal-could-reopen-two-weeks-1495093
It never ceases to amaze me how some folk think bombing is the answer to defeating a threat from the Middle East. Put yourself in the position of a civilian in Syria, what would you if your family was lost to you from a NATO bomb?
Would you take up arms and try to revenge them, or would you shrug your shoulders and think every war has collateral damage? I know what I’d do. So why do Obama or Cameron or Hollande insit on bombing when it most cases it doesn’t work.
The answer must be they simply don’t care about collateral damage.
Instead it galvanises the survivors to take up arms, effectively you’ve created more enemies.
Assad is a murderous dictator, I have very little sympathy for him or his regime however the self appointed world police (they police whoever it suits them) NATO. Cant be allowed to bomb almost without impunity in Syria.
Some older folk, who survived the London blitz, or the Clyebank blitz as children will know the fear bombing brings.
Politicians rarely acknowledge the Britain’s odious past, let alone acknowledge that such policies continue well into the present day. A year ago today a blank look from Mark Lancaster revealed a closed mind to questions framed around violently overthrowing democratically elected foreign governments that do not kowtow to U.K. foreign policy tenets.
I asked Captain Lancaster what happen to Iran’s democracy? Mohammad Mosaddegh may be the most popular leader in Iran’s long history. He was also Iran’s only democratically elected head of state.
When Mossaddegh nationalized Iran’s large oil reserves, he crossed a line that Britain nations would not tolerate and warned of “..serious results if she[Iran] seizes Oil,” administered under the auspices of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company, which later became the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, and eventually British Petroleum and modern BP.
British intelligence used ‘moderate rebels’ in Iran in a pre-coup plan to sow seeds of discontent by threatening Muslim leaders with savage punishment if they opposed Mossadegh, proxy murdering several scholars trained in religious law and convincing the US that communist Russia would take over Iran’s oil fields.
Plots and lies remain de rigeur in recent regime changes such as in Iraq, Egypt, Libya and Syria, always resulting in chaos and even brutal despots like Abdel Fattah el-Sisi holding the reigns with Britain pulling the strings. In August 2013, Sisi oversaw a slaughter of more than 800 peaceful Egyptian activists at Raba’a Square. His regime continues to shoot peaceful protesters in the street. An estimated 40,000 political prisoners languish in Sisi’s jails, including journalists.
I suggest Captain Lancaster you might want to review this screed as a harbinger of folks intention, armed with knowledge and union; folks sick and tired of images of roasted children, distraught mothers of dead infants, influx of tormented refugees, lies, deceit and insults to public intelligence, understanding and spirit.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/apr/17/iran
Fallon even trotted out that well worn line of an attack in the UK being “highly likely” you can read all kinds of underhand and provocative stuff into that one.
By the way, did anyone see our glorious leader Cameron strutting past the RAF Typhoon with his chest all puffed out? Was that really a coincidence, or crass photo opportunity?
I wasn’t comparing WW2 with Syria, i was suggesting we shouldn’t be basing our actions now on the past. Fair point IMO.
Craig Murray.
“I can sense Independence coming close with every new morning”
Oh, how I hope you are right!
The electorate in Scotland did not believe the lies and scaremongering and sacked the liars, and rightly so.
The voters in the Labour leadership contest did not believe the lies about Corbyn (and still don’t) and voted him in. Now it is time to listen to him, or lose your job!
Rose.
We would be delighted to welcome you and other like minded decent people to Scotland.
If there had been nuclear weapons in Iraq The English and Americans would have run like the wind in the opposite direction.
The French colonized Syria and exploited them until 1946 when Syria gained Independence. Therefore, a “payback” was always a probability given the present policy of France.
Phil.
Go back to Maxter’s link yesterday and have a look. There is many such videos saying the same.
Why do you keep buying papers? You are giving your approval every time you do so.
Someone posted a link to a dissertation on the post-ww1 Lausanne Treaty http://etheses.lse.ac.uk/1493/1/U111287.pdf – which dissertation apart from being inconclusive and rather pointless, throughout containing references to ‘Angora’ instead of Ankara, and dates being wrong, e.g. Winston Churchill was long dead by 1969 – is nonetheless interesting in its resonances and parallels today. Curzon’s scheming and deceits are laid bare particularly over Mosul, and Turkey’s equal determination to hang on to as much of the Ottoman Empire territory as it could, but the least or none of its colossal ‘debts’, the Ottoman breakup and seizure was clearly the entire point of world war one, planned long before it kicked off in 1914. In the end the fate of Mosul was to be determined by the League of Nations, who promptly handed it to Iraq and thus Britain, as Curzon knew it would, but by seeming to concede over Mosul, Turkey was screwed over in numerous other ways, its only recourse would have been resumption of war with Greece or harassing traffic through the straits. At this time with the ongoing collapse of the colonialist settler state Israel, the assertion of Syria’s independence from disgruntled old boss Turkey and latter day would-be boss US/UK banksters, and the daylight robbery of central banking apparent the now world over, giving the neo-colonial ambitions of Turkey their head seems to have been extremely foolhardy. Fall of the regional satellites of Israel, Turkey and Saudi Arabia seem now inevitable, and with that the inherently genocidal Zionist project will too come to its predictable sorry disgusting end.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. Enlightened opinion,
within living memory, has turned into wholehearted support of the
interests of alien peoples combined with hatred of their own. The
history of Western Europeans will be a source of wonder to future
chroniclers for the nature and speed of its end.
Nicely put LP, They use fools to implement their objectives. Perhaps the Germans won the war after all.
German politician OPENLY brag about replacing the German people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Ys621qFPE
German politician Gregor Gysi calls native Germans “Nazis” and their extinction “fortunate”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riQh4Qpvxm4
“Germany’s unforgivable crime before WW2 was its attempt to
loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up an
independent exchange system from which the world-finance couldn’t
profit anymore. …We butchered the wrong pig.” Winston Churchill
(The Second World War – Bern, 1960)
Scotland takes a firm stand on Syria:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-27/how-scots-welcome-visitors
Ken Livingstone may have been stretching the mark when he said Chinese troops should enter Syria. However I feel he was right on the money when he said British troops are “too discredited” to enter Syria.
You only have to look at Britain’s involvement in the Middle East and North Africa to see Livingstone has a valid point.
From Mossadegh to Nasser, and many more, Britain has colluded with and opposed, just about every country in the region and then some, if you were Syrian, would you put your trust in the British armed forces?
Jeremy Corbyn on Marr 22.30 in until 39.30
followed by Michael Cathel Fallon until 54.30
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b06rjpq3/the-andrew-marr-show-29112015
Fallon’s a trougher too for good measure.
‘MPs’ expenses: 21 May 2009 – Michael Fallon, a senior Conservative MP, claimed £8,300 too much in expenses for the mortgage on his second home. Mr Fallon, the deputy chairman of the Treasury select committee, claimed for the mortgage repayments on his Westminster flat in their entirety. MPs are only allowed to claim for interest charges.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5358001/MPs-expenses-Michael-Fallon-claimed-8300-too-much-in-mortgage-expenses.html
“Scotland takes a firm stand on Syria:”
__________________
Yes Herbie it certainly does, Scots aren’t for bombing.
http://m.heraldscotland.com/news/14110777.Hundreds_march_to_send_message__refugees_welcome_in_Scotland/
If i was syrian id prefer the Brits to ISIS, and the americans, and the russians, and the french on the basis they dont have a great success rate……
From the above link when I read on. Absolutely disgusting.
‘In May 2005, he claimed £499 for a television, £69.50 for a digital box and £35 for a radio. Mr Fallon sold the flat in December 2006 for £295,000, making a profit of £52,000. He claimed £1,774.50 in legal fees relating to the sale. In the two months before the sale, he claimed £126 for boiler repairs, £170 for repairs to bathroom tiles, £282 for electrical repairs and £225 for carpet cleaning.
He then bought another flat in Westminster for £728,000. Soon after moving in, he claimed £1,795 for a bed, £1,500 for curtains and almost £1,000 for a freezer, washer-dryer and deep cleaner. The claim for the bed was reduced to £1,000.
He then began claiming the interest on the mortgage for his new flat, which came to about £2,100 per month — almost three times as much as at his previous property. Mr Fallon also shares a large house in his Kent constituency with his wife, Wendy. The house, which the couple bought in 1997, is about 28 miles away from Westminster. It is not mortgaged.
Mr Fallon is also paid as a director of three companies. His salary from one, a money broker, is reportedly £45,000. He also pays his wife from his taxpayer-funded office expenses to work as his secretary.
He is expected to become chairman of the Treasury committee when its present chairman, John McFall, steps down at the general election.’
“NATO. Cant be allowed to bomb almost without impunity in Syria”
It can’t and isn’t. Thanks to Erdogan’s convenient piece of idocy last week Russia has now installed its S400 anti-aircraft system in Syria, covering virtually all of the country.
At some point Russia will announce that its air campaign is over and that there is nothing more that can be usefully achieved by airstrikes. Assad may then declare a temporary no-fly zone over Syria so that the delicate ground campaign can proceed without being compromised by unfortunate misunderstandings and loose-cannon buffoons like Erdogan.
Here’s a wee pick that might cheer you up Craig
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ou5snurHxdU/VldFF6evwRI/AAAAAAAAaxo/ba49hGseozc/s1600/blair.jpg
“I have no doubt that the Iraq War was one factor in making the people of Scotland realise that the UK is not an entity that matches their aspirations for the way a state should behave. Splitting the UK is a process. This incomprehensible Westminster bloodlust for bombing will drive the division wider. As will the whole ambience of the Etonian government and the peculiar social behaviour of its inner group, as even our coy media is hinting at in its coverage of the Shapps/Clarke group. ”
I’ve found opinion to be divided among the people I’ve talked to and posters to the local forums just as it seems to be divided in the political parties in Westminster. Apart from one that is.
Why is there any need to bomb at all.
Why not just get the Saudis and Qataris to stop funding ISIS and get the Turks to close their border to them.
Surely all this is already within the US and UK command and control.
Mary: Do they spend any of their wages?
Former UK Ambassador to Syria: Cameron was criminally deceitful about ‘moderate’ rebels in his speech/appeal to the UK parliament for a Syrian intervention.
Submitted by IWB, on November 28th, 2015
http://investmentwatchblog.com/former-uk-ambassador-to-syria-cameron-was-criminally-deceitful-about-moderate-rebels-in-his-speechappeal-to-the-uk-parliament-for-a-syrian-intervention/