Referendum Free Zone 150


I declare this blog an EU referendum free zone. There are several reasons for this:

a) I gave my views in the broadest possible manner a couple of days ago.

b) I live in Edinburgh. I am entirely confident I shall be remaining in the EU, one way or another

c) I refuse to campaign alongside the Tories, even if other Tories are campaigning the other way

d) Incredibly, the appalling Will Straw has been appointed to head the Remain campaign, his sole qualification being that he is the child of the UK’s second most famous war criminal and shyster.

That is my last word on the subject till 24 June.


150 thoughts on “Referendum Free Zone

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  • John Goss

    “Strangely enough Mr Goss avoids the subject of his major work “Darkness of Noon” . . .”

    There’s nothing strange about it. I have not read it.

  • Resident Dissident

    “Darwen and Rossendale needs to appear to be right wing to try and squeeze votes out of the farmers and rural cap-doffers.”

    Such ignorance and prejudice – Darwen and Rossendale was a Labour seat for 18 years between 1992 and 2010 – and is just the sort ot seat Labour needs to win in order to govern. But of course John Goss isn’t interested in that – just ideological purity.

  • Macky

    Resident Dissident; “So that’s your excuse for bombing the shit out of Vukovar”

    Sorry RD, I’m not going to take the bait & let you disrupt this Thread by allowing to engage in your favourite tactic of demonising leaders & countries who stood/stand up to the West.

  • Resident Dissident

    Macky

    Who made the initial posting on the subject? Who bombed Vukovar before Germany and Austria recognised Croatia? Who sought to blame Germany and Austria for the break up of Yugoslavia?

    Of course you now want to avoid the subject that you introduced.

  • Macky

    WResident Dissident; “who made the initial posting on the subject?3

    It was made iro the on-topic context of Becky Cohen’s point about a united Europe keeping the peace in Europe; diverting & discussing the Yugoslavian wars in detail is very much off-topic.

  • Chris Rogers

    @ John Goss,

    First I’m disturbed that the likes of CM does not want to engage any further in the cut and thrust of the EU Referendum, or non-Referendum in my opinion as from day one Cameron had no intention of ever withdrawing from the EU, it being against the interests of the Elite, so its my opinion we are not going to actually witness an actual honest and meaningful dialogue on the issues as “Operation Fear” Mark II is already being rolled out – just look at today’s Observer and yesterday’s Guardian – the comment sections are interesting though.

    Whilst I have great respect for the likes of Prof. Yanis Varoufakis who desires the UK to remain in the EU and fight for change – that fight will never be taken up by the Tories. Further, one of those with a deep insider knowledge of the EU whom I correspond with extensively, one Stuart Holland, former Labour MP for Vauxhall, and one of those directly involved with Wilson’s negotiations for the UK to join the EEC in the late 60’s, as well as being a senior advisor to Jacques Delors whilst Commission President, shares similar sentiments to my own, despite being very close to Prof. Varoufakis – he was magnificent last year when opposing the EU/ECB attitude shown towards Greece – I trust CM knows of him?

    Anyhow, as RD has already started with the kicking, what hope is their of a serious dialogue, one the Commons can understand and one that is not driven by greed, political ambition or fear mongering by those who have much to lose should the UK elect to get out of the EU.

    Thankfully I’m no ‘little-Englander’, but I’d much rather take on the Tories squarely within our own nation, rather than have to battle on two fronts, which is the present case with our continued membership of the EU.

    And, as it seems, if Latvia and Ireland are held up as two great successes of the EU/Euro Zone neoliberal austerity fixation, then I want out given both countries have suffer actual population declines by policies forced upon them from the EU/ECB axis.

    As ever, I remain faithful to the Commons and retain the internationalism that the traditional Left has always embrace – just a great shame there are hardly any real Left political groupings remaining within Europe given many succumbed to the thrill of neoliberalism from the late 90’s onward, among them the UK’s Labour Party and Germany’s SDP.

    The EU at heart is now dysfunctional, and if the EU treated Scotland in the same way its treated Ireland, Latvia and Greece, I can’t see why CM would support it, if we actually are concerned about democracy and the interests of all and not the few.

  • John Goss

    “Such ignorance and prejudice – Darwen and Rossendale was a Labour seat for 18 years between 1992 and 2010 – and is just the sort of seat Labour needs to win in order to govern. But of course John Goss isn’t interested in that – just ideological purity.”

    Ideological purity is what those of us with morals strive for. It is not a crime. What is a crime is letting people who are likely to take us into yet another unjustified war get into positions of power. Lenin and Chicherin were pacifists like Keir Hardie. These are the intellectuals we should be putting our weight behind – not your right-wing warmongers.

  • Resident Dissident

    John Goss’s cheap jibe at Left Foot Forward yet again demonstrates the inability of the hard left to work with those progressives they do not consider to be ideologically sound and of course why they will never achieve anything as a result. The less bigoted might actually just go and look at Left Foot Forward for themselves – and they may then find a multitude of views and positions that they have no problem in supporting and agreeing with – and of course there will be some that they don’t, but only in totalitarian states do you get the complete worship of the “line”.

  • Resident Dissident

    Macky

    Oh I see attacking Germany and Austria for acting against a United Europe on topic – pointing out the glaring error in that claim and who was responsible is off topic.

    The line must be preserved at all costs!

  • John Goss

    “just a great shame there are hardly any real Left political groupings remaining within Europe given many succumbed to the thrill of neoliberalism from the late 90’s onward, among them the UK’s Labour Party and Germany’s SDP.”

    I think Podemos and Syriza are real left, and intellectual left. They just happen to have inherited seriously bad loans and continue to struggle under petro-dollar supremacy. Let us see what happens in the High Court case Russia is bringing against Ukraine for non-payment of a $3 billion debt. If the court approves Ukraine’s non-payment it means none of the other debt-ridden countries need to honour their debts. Most laughable is the United States of America. Its debts are off the scale. But it keeps printing confetti until that day comes . . . Herald the day!

  • Resident Dissident

    Lenin and Chicherin were pacifists like Keir Hardie. These are the intellectuals we should be putting our weight behind – not your right-wing warmongers.

    I don’t think they will win in Darwin and Rossendale either. And it is ridiculous in the extreme to claim that Lenin was a pacifist.

  • Resident Dissident

    The first para in the above should be in inverted commas – they are not my views.

    Very sweet how Mr Goss is now pronouncing what is and what isn’t part of the left – we all need the politburo to establish the line.

  • fred

    “I really don’t get this ‘Scottish independence, remain in the E.U.’ thing. Am I missing something? Is that not an obvious contradiction?”

    The only thing that really matters to them is their hatred of England. They are hoping for Britain to vote for exit but a majority in Scotland to vote to stay. They can’t really say that though.

    In 1975 it was the other way round, when it looked like Britain was going to vote to stay the SNP campaigned for an exit hoping they could get Scotland voting differently to the rest of britain.

  • Macky

    Resident Dissident; “Oh I see attacking Germany and Austria for acting against a United Europe on topic – pointing out the glaring error in that claim and who was responsible is off topic.”

    Loke I said, I’m not going to allow you to divert into a discussion about the Yugoslavian break-up; those impartially interested enough to look into the background of both your & my comments, are obviously enable, indeed encouraged, to do so.

  • John Goss

    “. . . but it would not surprise to you to let you know that I trust the US courts on these matters more than yourself – a man who is open in his support for totalitarians such as Putin, Ghadaffi, Assad and Saddam.”

    It did not surprise me in the least that you put more faith in the US courts over the wrongful solitary imprisonment of Talha and Babar (beaten by UK police who have still not faced justice), and more faith in Theresa May in extraditing them on a one-sided agreement without the Yanks giving the Brits any reason for wanting their extradition. But then expediency is more important to some than justice.

    Regarding the above blame Putin, Gadaffi, Assad and Saddam, excluding Putin, what were their respective countries like before NATO ‘humanitarian intervention’? And what are they like now after it? This is why we don’t want any Jack Straws, Will Straws or other Blairites in the Labour Party. They should go where they belong in the Tory Party.

    As to Lenin’s pacifism it was more, I concede of a pragmatist nature, but there were many pacifists in the early years of the revolution and it was one of the reasons Russia pulled out of the First World War. He supported Chicherin’s pacifist agenda – no doubt to keep as many on board as possible. To defeat imperialism is not easy with pacifism. Even Mohandas could not do it!

  • Resident Dissident

    “without the Yanks giving the Brits any reason for wanting their extradition.”

    This is not true he was accused of “conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists; providing material support to terrorists; conspiracy to kill, kidnap, maim or injure persons or damage property in a foreign country; and money laundering.” and there were 8 years of judicial proceeding before the extradition was approved.

    Interesting concept pacifism of a pragmatic nature – is Putin a follower as well?

  • John Goss

    “conspiracy to provide material support to terrorists; providing material support to terrorists; conspiracy to kill, kidnap, maim or injure persons or damage property in a foreign country; and money laundering.”

    Now you really are showing your incapacity to reason. No details were given to the UK government this was just what the Yanks had said to close the ECHR case and had been agreed in the US beforehand with at least one of the judges in the case.

    “and there were 8 years of judicial proceeding before the extradition was approved.”

    Is that what you call imprisonment without charge, and imprisonment without trial. You really should stop reading the Telegraph.

  • John Goss

    It was quite clear to me at the time that you approved of Talha’s imprisonment without charge or trial and his extradition. Even now when we know it was another Yankee power-trip against Muslims you are still trying, hopelessly, to make a case for our government, when you ought to be fighting the 2003 extradition act, like a good socialist would.

    “Of course, another superpower’s interests were also at stake in the Ahsan decision. A largely unknown fact about the case is that on March 1 2012, the month before the Ahsan judgement was given, Strasbourg judges – including two members of the Court Chamber who judged on the Ahsan case, Lech Garlicki and Nicolas Bratza – visited Washington to take part in a closed conference with US Supreme Court Justices. The first of its kind, this closed-door conference – Judicial Process and the Protection of Rights: the U.S. Supreme Court and the European Court of Human Rights – brought together members of the Strasbourg Court with Supreme Court Justices Stephen Breyer, Samuel Alito, Anthony Kennedy and Sonia Sotomayor. Also present were the UK government’s in-house legal counsellor, Derek Walton, who was representing the UK in Ahsan’s European Court case, and the vastly influential Harold Koh, who was serving as Obama’s appointed Legal Advisor to the State Department.”

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/impossible-injustice-talha-ahsan%E2%80%99s-extradition-and-detention

    Would you care to address. “Regarding the above blame Putin, Gaddafi, Assad and Saddam, excluding Putin, what were their respective countries like before NATO ‘humanitarian intervention’? And what are they like now after it?” I thought not! 😀

  • Resident Dissident

    So the UK courts approved an extradition request with no reasons being provided for the extradition – I’m afraid you are just making it all up. Any competent lawyer would have got them out within 8 years if there had been no charge whatsoever.

    BTW I read the Guardian and the New Statesman – though being of an open mind I will look at other papers websites and even your garbage.

  • Resident Dissident

    “It was quite clear to me at the time that you approved of Talha’s imprisonment without charge or trial and his extradition.”

    Then produce the evidence for this – I try not to pronounce either way on those awaiting trial as I believe such matters should be resolved in court.

    Why ask me to address straw men of your making – when you don’t think I will anyway – do you think it proves anything? Are you mad?

  • Chris Rogers

    @John Goss,

    RE:USA Extradition & Abuses – hope you’ll be happy to learn, that despite large philosophical/political difference, the Blog host Sic Semper Tyrannis, one W. Patrick Lang, like you has been assisting detainees at Guantanamo with regards outrageous charges brought against them by the US Government. To say the US War on Terror has no resulted in large scale false charges and indictments against Muslims is an insult, but yet the resident trolls keeping banging away, despite an overwhelming body of evidence suggesting many of any charges brought, if any, are either false or exaggerated to such an extent to make them meaningless. This being the same USA who’s current bunch of Republican hopefuls fully support torture.

    But of course by highlighting these abuses we are either anti-Americans or paid Putin Bots – although I’d much prefer being a paid Putin Bot, than a paid Zionist propagandist!

    PS.
    The UK should never extradite anyone to any nation that has the death penalty, or such abuses of law that the USA engages in daily.

  • Old Mark

    If we were to leave the Little Englanders and nationalists would be rampant – there would be an immediate burning of the provisions of the social chapter and as for pushing “continental” ideas such as PR and federalism you must be joking.

    Res Diss- as is often the case when you get in pontifical mode the joke is on you; since last May, for obvious reasons, UKIP has been in favour of PR and is anti FPTP-

    http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/441055/ukip-farage-first-past-the-post-proportional-representation-83-seats-electoral-reform

  • John Goss

    “Then produce the evidence for this – I try not to pronounce either way on those awaiting trial as I believe such matters should be resolved in court.”

    Go look for yourself. Even your “convicted criminals” shows your usual lack of humanity to people who suffered much longer than Koestler did.

  • John Goss

    “The UK should never extradite anyone to any nation that has the death penalty, or such abuses of law that the USA engages in daily.”

    Goes without saying. Koestler fought against capital punishment. Rendition, an even worse form of extradition, has seen Jack Straws signature on the forms that cost some their freedom, torture and wrongful imprisonment. Others never got their freedom.

  • Republicofscotland

    “You should read Norman Davies book on disappearing countries – they are a lot more common than people might think, which is perhaps why nationalists everywhere should be more than a little careful as to how they define their nations – perhaps the inhabitants of Northumbria share rather more in common with each other than those from Edinburgh do with their Highland compatriots, which is of course where we came in on this subject.”

    _____________________

    RD.

    I shall bear that in mind, and look out for the book on my travels, thank you.

    However as you clearly state those kingdoms and countries have now disappeared, (in European at least) to be replaced with current borders, of which Scotland has one of the oldest and continious in Europe.

    And it is highly unlikely that European countries will see their borders change anytime soon.

  • Republicofscotland

    “I really don’t get this ‘Scottish independence, remain in the E.U.’ thing. Am I missing something? Is that not an obvious contradiction?”

    _______________

    Well Richard, an independent Scotland would be able to deal directly with the EU.

    At present the majority of EU deals regarding Scotland are brokered by Westminster, whether the Scottish government likes the outcome or not.

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