The Calm Stroll to Independence 484


Scottish nationals have two supra-national citizenships. One is UK citizenship, the second is EU citizenship. In democratic referenda over the past two years, Scots have voted clearly to retain both citizenships.

Unfortunately it is not possible to respect both democratic decisions of the Scottish people, due to a vote by other nationalities. So where you have democratic decisions which cannot both be implemented, which does democracy demand should take precedence?

It is not a simple question. The vote to retain EU citizenship was more recent and carried a much larger majority than the earlier vote. In addition it was made crystal clear during the campaign that it may require the overturning of the earlier vote. So on these grounds I believe the most recent vote must, as an exercise in democracy, have precedence.

In these circumstances the announcement by the First Minister that she is initiating the procedure on a new referendum for Scottish independence from the UK, in order to retain Scottish membership of the EU, is a sensible step.

But I believe there is another step she should take. The democratic conflict of decisions brings about a conflict of interests between the institutions to which Scotland elects national representatives.

To resolve this requires a supplementing of current constitutional arrangements. The First Minister should therefore convene a National Convention consisting of all Scotland’s elected national representatives – its MEPs, MPs and MSPs united in a single democratic body merged on a one member one vote basis.

This body should draw up recommendations for the independence referendum, including on the future constitution, economy including currency, and international alliances of an independent Scotland, and should oversee negotiations with the EU. The next referendum could therefore present voters with a more definite prospectus for what the new Scotland will look like.

The world has changed radically. We must not be afraid to think outside the UK prescribed box in defining Scottish solutions.


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484 thoughts on “The Calm Stroll to Independence

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      • michael norton

        European Commissioners are among the most powerful officials in Brussels, with the ability to make laws across a range of policy areas, but the UK will cease to have one when it leaves the EU.

        In a statement, Conservative peer Lord Hill said: “Like many people here and in the UK, I am obviously very disappointed about the result of the referendum.
        wanker

        • michael norton

          The President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, said it was “outrageous” the choice of David Cameron will leave office in October. “A whole continent is taken hostage” by this decision. ”

          http://www.ledauphine.com/france-monde/2016/06/25/les-dirigeants-europeens-discutent-de-l-avenir-de-l-ue

          EU leaders want Cameron to go away
          The foreign ministers of the founding countries of the European Union meet this Saturday in Berlin to discuss the consequences of the historic British decision to leave the EU.

          The six founding states of the European Union want the UK launch as soon as possible the release of procedure of the European Union, said the German foreign minister on Saturday after a meeting with his five counterparts.

          “We say here together, that this process should begin as soon as possible,” said Steinmeier, flanked by his counterparts Jean-Marc Ayrault (France), Bert Koenders (Netherlands), Paolo Gentiloni (Italy) Didier Reynders (Belgium) and Jean Asselborn (Luxembourg).

          Ayrault called for a new prime minister David Cameron replaced quickly. “We must appoint a new prime minister, it will take a few days,” he said. The British prime minister said Friday he wanted to resign in September to leave the country a period of stability.
          “A whole continent is taken hostage”

          The President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, said it was “outrageous” the choice of David Cameron will leave office in October. “A whole continent is taken hostage” by this decision. ”

          London will now enter a long tunnel of negotiations with the EU on the output conditions that could last up to two years. By then, the United Kingdom will remain bound by existing agreements.

          The International Monetary Fund (IMF) extended a “soft” transition.

  • Habbabkuk

    If it is correct that the EU as such has moved in a neo-liberal direction over the last decade or so, this is only so because the majority of its Member States have moved, broadly speaking, in that direction.

    It is the Member States which have the effective voice in deciding who the members of the Commission will be, and it is of course the Member States who make up the Council of Ministers (and, indeed, the European Council). Nor is it entirely surprising that the general political orientation of the directly-elected European parliament should correspond, grosso modo, to that of the Member States’ governments.

    If people feel alienated by this neo-liberal direction, they should perhaps start remedying matters by electing non-neo-liberal governments in their national elections.

    • Herbie

      Rather difficult to elect a non neo-liberal national govt, when left and right parties have been taken over by neo-liberals.

      New Labour or Conservative. Same difference.

      And when a non neo-liberal takes over a party, as in the case of Corbyn, they’re smeared relentlessly by neo-liberal media at the BBC, Guardian etc.

      Same thing going on across Europe, of course.

      • Habbabkuk

        Well, that sort of line makes all discussion impossible, doesn’t it.

        It’s equivalent to saying why bother to engage in politics, why bother to form political parties, why bother to have a legislature and so on….

        Why bother to post views on this blog, for that matter?

        I recommend you emigrate to Mars.

  • Habbabkuk

    If it is justified to hold second Scottish referendum owing to changed circumstances, would that not also hold true for a second British EU referendum on whether the outcome of the exit negotiations was acceptable to the British people?

    (Possible “Article 50 objections” could easily be overcome by even moderately gifted jurists)

    • Republicofscotland

      Are you saying over 17 million people were wrong to vote leave? Or is it only now you realise the UK is teetering on the brink of collapse?

      These are uncertain, but exciting times for those who thought the Westminster bubble impenetrable. Never in my life time would I have expected the possibility of a united Ireland slim as it may be. Nor would I have expected Westminster to allow a EU vote to have ever taken place, for fear of a Britain ending up outside the EU, the very result.

      Now it will be very interesting to watch the Brexiteers, try to form some sort of coherent plan, on extracting the UK from Europe, and get a good deal in the process.

      Meanwhile Scots will be planning their own escape route from Westminster and Boris’s Brexiteers.

      • lysias

        The Scottish refrrendum preceded the EU’s antidemocratic attack on the Greek Syriza government. Maybe Scottish nationalists should now rethink their desire to remain within the EU?

  • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

    Had anyone ever heard of this Lord Hill character? Why is it suddenly ‘news’ that he has resigned?

    Do you know this fella Habby?

    As for Juncker, I haven’t a clue as to his background and the temptation to look him up in wiki is very, very faint; so I shan’t collect any unnecessary junk in my brain.

    I did once however sit next to Boris’s younger brother Jo once at a dinner and observed that he has the charisma of a clerk, when compared with his brother.
    http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/14568528.Jo_Johnson_writes_open_letter_to_students_urging_them_to_vote_remain_and_avoid____funding_black_hole___/

    • Habbabkuk

      I know of him, Alcyone, but I do not know him either personally or “professionally”.

      Mr Juncker is a different story but I would only comment to say that in these matters it is fruitless – generally speaking – to ascribe too much importance to the sole persona of such leaders.

      • Alcyone: End every Cliche

        Thanks for that answer Habby. And good to see you again. Thank you for your contributions and helping keep this blog/comments sane. I haven’t been around much lately as you know. Have we been joined by any new contributors of any notable ‘quality’?

        I have been reading your comments as of yesterday and you have had some good, astute summaries of the situation.

        Of course what the Brexit negotiation translates into is yet to be seen. For example, we may yet have free movement of people, rather like Norway and Switzerland, of course with some control and likely modifications. Noteworthy is of course, without looking up the league tables, is the fact that Norway and Switzerland are two of the richest nations in Europe.

        Anything is better than the status quo, so credit to Cameron for calling the referendum. But I do not believe, for a moment, that a second referendum would be a healthy precedent. Note the word ‘heal’ entwined in healthy. The British public now needs to heal its rifts, though that may well prove to be a romantic notion.

        • Habbabkuk

          Thank you, your comment are appreciated, as always.

          And yes, I have been trying to put forward a few relevant thoughts and questions* but I am somewhat surprised at the absence of reaction and response from other commenters. But I do realise that most people attach more importance to seeing their own opinion appear than to engaging with others in a meaningful way.

          * eg on whether the decision to initiate the Article 50 procedure could be taken by the govt on its own without obtaining the consent of Parliament.

          • Alcyone: End every Cliche

            Habby, would you happen to know if the referendum itself was approved by Parliament? I’d imagine so but don not actually know.

          • Habbabkuk

            To be honest, I don’t recall.

            Perhaps one of the many informed and vociferous commenters might?

  • Habbabkuk

    The British people have spoken – although there are a number of legitimate questions to be asked. For example, should there not have been a requirement that all the constituent parts of the Union (the “United Kingdom of..etc”) should have voted to leave? Should such a potentially momentous decision- far surpassing in importance which political party wins a general election) have been made by 52% of around 75% of the eligible electorate?

    Having said that : is it the case or not that a decision to initiate the Article 50 exit procedure can be taken by the government itself without a decision to that effect of the British parliament?

    And if the answer to that is “no”, what would be the situation if the British parliament – which is sovereign – decided to over-ride the outcome of the referendum?

    • Jim

      Everyone would heave a sigh of relief, not least Boris Johnson judging by the look of abject fear in his eyes yesterday giving his ‘victory’ speech.

        • Jim

          No, I was being facetious, but a hell of a lot of people are regretting their decision. And Johnson looked like a cornered beast, a look of fear I’ve never ever seen before in that bumptious twat.

          • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

            Oh really Jim? And where does that observation of the regret come from?

            As for Johnson’s looks, are you a face reader, mind reader or both?

          • Pykrete

            Absolutely. The europeans are saying you’ve made your choice so f off asap, and Boris et al are cr*pping themselves saying er ..er .. … can you hang on for a minute guys.

          • Pykrete

            Yep, Jim got it right. Boris’ body language, speech tone, rate and volume, eye contact etc indicated significant anxiety/uncertainty. Oh by the way, whereas I don’t know Jim’s qualifications, I am qualified to make such judgements.

          • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

            Thank you Jim. Do your critical faculties agree with all this (MSM) nonsense?

            What do the pollsters say, how many schizophrenics voted?

            How exactly did you come to the conclusion that Johnson’s a “bumptious twat”? Which Tory would you like to see as PM and why? What is your overall opinion of politicians, in general?

          • Jim

            Alcyone :
            My opinion on Johnson’s bumptious twattery comes from years of observation.

            My opinion on politicians in general is that the current popular sentiment of utter contempt for all politicians is dangerous, we’ve got a fallible imperfect democracy, and fallible imperfect politicians, but to paint those institutions and people as all totally corrupt and untrustworthy is pathetic.

            Funny to hear you bleating about the ‘MSM’ in the same fashion as the far left buffoons you despise. My critical faculties enable me to read all shades of political journalistic output, and come to a judgement as to how much credence I attach to the opinions and ideas therein. I provided you with pieces from the politically opposed Guardian and Telegraph which were telling much the same story. Maybe that went above your head?

            Which Tory would I prefer as Prime Minister? God almighty, what an impossible question. None of the horrendous bunch of Leave advocates that’s for sure.

          • Alcyone: End every Cliche

            Wow (!), Jim, this blog and we are so blessed to have such Wisdom being shared in such difficult global times. Or maybe you’re as important as Boris Johnson’s Fordyce spots?!

          • Alcyone: End every Cliche

            Next time Jim try harder.

            Actually, we’ll leave it there as you come across as very jaded. We need fresh thinking at this time. Good luck and thanks for engaging.

          • Jim

            And you come across as offering no meaningful input at all beyond ad hominem guff. Try harder indeed. Adieu!

          • Alcyone: End every Cliche

            You’re right. I might just try to be more patient with you next time. For now, Fordyce, it’s over and out!

          • Richard

            How do you know that a hell of a lot of people are regretting their decision. I voted ‘Leave’ and I’m not.

            We have nothing to fear. We are now an independent country and we should just get on with it.

            Unfortunately some kind of slave mentality or the Stockholm syndrome sets in to a population after a while. While many never accept their status, there are always some people who worry how they’ll get by without the massa in the big house. Believe me, we’ll manage fine; we always did and we always will. You’ve just got to start believing in yourself and see the scare stories for what they are – bluster, bluff and baloney put about by people who had a pecuniary interest in maintaining the edifice.

    • K Crosby

      Did you make the same point over the 2015 fake election? 1930 1931 1932 1933 1934 1935 1936 1937 1938 1945 1946 1947 1948 1949 1950 1951 1952 1953 1954 1955 1956 1957 1958 1959 1960 1961 1962 1963 1964 1965 1966 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 1974 1975 1976 1977 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982 1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014?

      • K Crosby

        Bugger! Copied the wrong list 1929 1931 1935 1945 1950 1951 1955 1959 1964 1966 1970 1974 (Feb) 1974 (Oct) 1979 1983 1987 1992 1997 2001 2005 2010 2015?

    • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

      Habby, why is it helpful to convolute this thing?

      I’m not sure you are asking your questions in the context of The Bigger Picture, ie respect the vote, stop angling, get on and implement. Else we’d be playing with fire in terms the very basic principles of democracy, at least as applied contemporaneously. There you are, I really wanted to use that word.

      Anyhow, I say see the ‘What Is’ for what it is.

      • Habbabkuk

        Loony

        “The constitutional position is clear”
        ___________________

        What is it, then? Please share.

        • Loony

          The referendum was constructed as a national plebiscite, therefore the validity of its outcome is not altered by the fact that one or more of the constituent parts of the UK may have returned an aggregate vote that differed from the overall majority vote.

          The referendum was constructed on the basis that outcome would be determined by way of a simple majority (i.e. 50%+1)

          The number of actual voters is irrelevant – all that is relevant is that all eligible voters were provided with an equal opportunity to vote and that all other aspects of electoral law were complied with.

          The outcome of the referendum was that the British people instructed its representatives to withdraw from the EU. The ultimate sovereign power resides with the people. They routinely delegate that sovereignty to Parliament. Thus Parliament is the sovereign power for the duration of its sitting – General Elections are the means by which Parliament obtains the consent of the people to delegate their sovereignty for a further specified maximum period (or in extreme cases of emergency until the end of a specified event).

          Parliament elects a government and the government is answerable to parliament.

          For the specific purposes of the EU referendum sovereignty was returned directly to the British people. They have now issued their instructions to Parliament and Parliament is obligated to execute the instruction that it has received. If it cannot or will not execute that instruction then it is required to dissolve itself and reconstitute on a basis that permits it to fulfill the instruction it has received.

          • Alan

            “For the specific purposes of the EU referendum sovereignty was returned directly to the British people. They have now issued their instructions to Parliament and Parliament is obligated to execute the instruction that it has received. If it cannot or will not execute that instruction then it is required to dissolve itself and reconstitute on a basis that permits it to fulfil the instruction it has received.”

            I also think HM’s security services should be looking hard at these terrorists who are in favour of insurrection against the sovereign nature of the UK, especially those protesting in Edinburgh.

          • Habbabkuk

            Just a quick response, Loony (I’m pressed for time).

            Your interpretation of the binding nature of this referendum would be contested by many constitutional experts, but that’s the way things go.

            I notice, though, that you do seem to be saying that triggering the Article 50 procedure will require Parliamentary approval (in so doing you have answered the question I asked).

            Finally, I’m not sure why you bothered with your first three paragraphs: what I said in one of my previous posts was that, given the importance of the question for the UNITED Kingdom, it might have bee better if the conditions for winning or losinbg the referendum had been other (ie, all constituent parts of the UK and an absolute majority of the eligible electorate in favour of leaving).

          • Loony

            It is the case that the interpretation offered regarding he constitutional position of the referendum could be contested. I assume that any such challenge would rely on “the advisory nature of the referendum” Absent new information I do not consider it likely that a challenge on such grounds would be ultimately successful.

            Should anyone seek to clarify the position then in due course we will all discover which view holds primacy. Perhaps, as an anarchist, you are content that at the moment opponents of the referendum outcome seem to prefer a more populist, devious, and emotional path. So much better than applying the law – or not as the case may be.

            I “bothered with the first 3 paragraphs” since they constitute an answer to the questions that you requested an answer to. Please bear in mind that I am not responsible for either the quantum or the phrasing of questions that you pose. Not even the anarchist has a defense to this simple truth.

    • Habbabkuk

      I should have preferred people to essay answers to my questions of 14h10 rather than to comment on Boris Johnson’s expression, but since we seem to be on Boris for the moment: is it possible that he (belatedly)set himself up as one of the leaders of the Exit campaign just to give PM Cameron a fright but expecting to lose by a narrow margin while establishing his own credentials as the next Conservative leader?

      • Jim

        Yes Habby, people have been suggesting that for 24 hours now. My comment on his expression and body language wasn’t an original observation, it’s formed part of the evidence for those ideas regarding his being taken by surprise by the result, and the suspicion he was feigning all along, merely for personal political ‘positioning’.

          • Alcyone: End every Cliche

            At this stage, Habby, I’d say that kind of speculation is a rather pointless exercise. And anybody who would be so sure of a given outcome, with as you say narrow margins, combined with any understanding of statistics would be deludedly foolhardy.

          • Habbabkuk

            I would agree with the “foolhardy” definition, Alcyone. But Boris has something of a track record of foolhardy behaviour…. in various spheres.

  • michael norton

    the Front National president Marine Le Pen said it was a “victory for freedom”.

    • michael norton

      Body Of Jo Cox Released To Her Family

      An inquest hears how medics tried to save the MP but she was pronounced dead by a doctor in an ambulance outside Birstall Library.

      http://news.sky.com/story/1717076/body-of-jo-cox-released-to-her-family

      A coroner has released the body of Jo Cox to her family so they can “get on with the grieving process”.

      The coroner at the inquest into her death confirmed that the Labour MP had died from multiple gunshot and stab wounds.

      A second post-mortem examination will not be required on the body of Mrs Cox, who was attacked while she was outside her constituency surgery in the town of Birstall in West Yorkshire.

      Adjourning the inquest until after the criminal proceedings are finished, the coroner, Martin Fleming, said he could now release Mrs Cox’s body “so the family can get on with the grieving process”.

      Detective Superintendent Nick Wallen, of West Yorkshire Police, told the short hearing at Bradford Coroner’s Court that police and paramedics at the scene knew Mrs Cox was “very seriously injured indeed”.

      He said medics tried to save the 41-year-old, but she was pronounced dead by a doctor in an ambulance outside Birstall Library.

      Mr Wallen told the inquest that police and paramedics first saw the man injured trying to help Mrs Cox, pensioner Bernard Kenny, who had been stabbed in the stomach.

      “On Thursday June 16 2016, at just after 12.52pm, both the police and ambulance service were called by a number of emergency calls to Market Street in Birstall town centre where initial information was that a man armed with a gun and knife had attacked and seriously injured a man and a woman,” he said.

      Mr Wallen said the emergency services then found Mrs Cox, who was being looked after by members of the public.

      Mrs Cox was pronounced dead at 1.48pm.

      Her sister, Kim Leadbeater, formally identified her at a mortuary in Bradford. None of Mrs Cox’s family were in court for the hearing.

      Thomas Mair, 52, who is accused of murdering Mrs Cox, will go on trial at the Old Bailey on 14 November.

      The shock of Mrs Cox’s death was felt around the world.

      MPs returned to Westminster to pay tribute to her, and her husband Brendan and their children marked what would have been her 42nd birthday at an event in Trafalgar Square.

      Prime Minister David Cameron and Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn went to her Birstall constituency to pay tribute to their colleague.

      She had only been an MP for just over a year, representing the Batley and Spen area she grew up in.

      She previously worked for development charities.

      Mr Kenny, who was 78 on what would have been Ms Cox’s birthday, has now been released from hospital.

      • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

        mike, do you think you can be more measured? Or shall we take this as a measurement of your degree of boredom with your (probably petty little) life?

        • michael norton

          Far right leaders across Europe have hailed the result of the Brexit vote and suggested it should be the last nail in the coffin of the European Union.

          France’s National Front leader Marine Le Pen said her country too now needs to hold its own referendum over EU membership.

          “For all the patriots, for all those who love freedom, this day is one of joy,” explained Marine Le Pen. “It is not Europe which has died, it’s the European Union which is shaking and it is a rebirth of nations, and they need to build between them a new European project, that of cooperation.”

          Marine Le Pen has made it perfectly clear that she thinks the European Union has been a “complete disaster”, sentiments shared by Geert Wilders:
          http://www.euronews.com/2016/06/24/far-right-leaders-hail-brexit/

          • bevin

            When the right and the left are agreed they are probably right.
            What they have in common is that each party has a critique of the status quo. The fact that Le Pen doesn’t like the EU doesn’t make the EU right but there are many, currently throwing up hands in horror and muttering that it puts them in mind of the Berlin bus strike of 1931 (?) which the KPD and the Nazis both supported, who seem to think that if Le Pen or Nick Griffin-who wrote an interesting article on the subject- say one thing decent people should contradict them.
            Much of what Le Pen says is sensible. As to her motives in saying sensible things, that is another question.

          • Habbabkuk

            Bevin

            “When the right and the left are agreed they are probably right”
            ________________

            Do you mean like when the Nazis and the Communists agreed that the Weimar Repoublic should be destroyed?

        • michael norton

          I did not comment, it is verbatum from sky News.
          Yes I am bored, I was going out cycling with a friend but there is a storm going on.

          • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

            Well, at least you are honest. Try this:

            ” A psychological mutation
            Can you and I, then, bring about in ourselves without any outside influence, without any persuasion, without any fear of punishment- can we bring about in the very essence of our being a total revolution, a psychological mutation, so that we are no longer brutal, violent, competitive, anxious, fearful, greedy, envious and all the rest of the manifestations of our nature which we have built up the rotten society in which we live our daily lives?”

            http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php

    • bevin

      Agree. Galloway was right about Iraq and he’s been right more often than not ever since. He’s absolutely right here.
      And you are right about that bloody hat.

    • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

      I had to turn that one off after a minute of the 3-minute video; couldn’t suffer him any longer. He’s such a spent force.

    • Kempe

      I was reminded of Harold Wilson’s post-devaluation “Pound in your Pocket” speech. The ordinary person will notice feel the effects when prices start to rise.

      • michael norton

        I was out walking on Chobham Common, yesterday, wading through thigh deep waters,
        it was warm, miles of floods.

  • bevin

    This is very similar to the argument that Craig made. And there is some truth in it. But the reality is that the EU, and the series of organisations which preceded it, was designed to insulate its decision makers from popular pressure. In a way this was justifiable so long as the decisions taken were of a narrow and technical, for the most part, nature as was the case in, for example, Euratom.
    The Common Market has evolved and has done so rapidly over the past forty years but in one crucial area, that of popular sovereignty it has barely changed. Its decision making remains, effectively, protected from the populace. The nearest approach to democracy is through the influence national governments have but this influence is necessarily extremely indirect: no party in any country was ever elected on the basis of EU issues.
    There are good historical reasons why the EU has become what it is: its founders were obsessed with Cold War questions. They prized the alliance with the United States as might be expected from organisations which depended on Marshal Plan investment and US government assistance in all sorts of areas. But they also committed themselves to the US because they were anti-communist, many of them former collaborators with Mussolini, Petain and even less savoury characters. The Eurocracy originated in the same political atmosphere as the NATO Security Services, the Bundeswehr and the various secret Gladio style militias.
    In any case the EU has always, throughout its incarnations and often despite strong supporters like De Gaulle, been Atlanticist and deeply imbued with corporatist ideas.
    And this is where your argument becomes weak: the EU is not neo-liberal because member governments are. It is the other way round: neo-liberalism has spread from Brussels outwards. It has acted as a very effective means of spreading the alien-Thatcherite/Reaganite- ideology down to the national capitals. How effective it has been can be seen by the Hartz IV programme in Germany, introduced by the SPD and the current radical attempt in Hollande’s suicidal mission to implement neo-liberal ‘reforms’ in France.
    This is a dialectical process- neo-liberal ideology is constantly reinforced as it bounces between the EU and the member states, until it has reached the point where it is virtually a parallel Constitution full of rules preventing governments from doing one thing or another.
    EU apologists always talk about the “rights” that EU institutions protect but these are of small consequence. In most cases these are rights guaranteed by national governments and imposed on them by popular, radical pressures.
    What is really important is the programme of ‘rights’ that corporations are guaranteed at the expense of nation states. These include, among many others, banning governments from re-nationalising privatised monopolies. And, as we know, the various interlocking “trade” agreements which are still being kept confidential include a vast array of special privileges for corporations which prevent governments from regulating them.
    The EU is becoming a sort of empire within an empire, a regional franchise of the great Euro American Empire: half of the “states” are in fact protectorates of the EU, their economic policies tightly controlled, indeed written, by the EU and its agents. In Ireland the government is, it is said, actually obliged to commercialise the supply of water. The Dail is full of deputies who promised their constituents that there would be no household water charges and are now having to explain that they don’t have the power to resist the EU and Troika. The situation in Greece is even worse. That in Portugal very similar: a left wing government is hog tied by the EU.
    In every case what we see is a flagrant denial of democracy. An announcement, from the highest rooftops in Brussels, that the electorates must accept that national legislatures are now subject to vetoes wielded by the EU Commissioners.
    At the same time, and most ominously, we see the EU morphing into a real imperium with-through its alliance with NATO- armed forces at its disposal. And, since half of the forces involved are actually US and NATO is always commanded by a Pentagon appointed American General, the EU’s foreign policy is necessarily subordinate to that of the US.
    The old nonsense, which was very seductive in its day, that the EU was becoming a rival to US power another potential pole in a multi polar system, has proven to be utterly mistaken: the reverse is the case. The sound of other voices- Macmillan, De Gaulle, Attlee, Togliatti channeled through the Italian government- even on the smaller issues is now reduced to whisperings the content of which we never know.
    And the nation states themselves- in conformity with the old conjunction theory that the CIA promoted in the sixties- although still gung ho on US foreign policy, are organised internally on lines that would have gladdened Stalin’s heart. Democratic Centralism plus total surveillance of the sort that the Stasi’s commanders would have rejected as extreme.
    And the EU Commission is a Politburo from which power flows outwards and downwards and little is ever heard from below. The media acts as a chorus line for the powers that be, titillating, distracting and legitimising at the same time. Telling people what to think to save the expense.
    And the result is the same too: no doubt the EU Commission is full of people who believe that they are doing what is best. No doubt they are advised regularly that neo-liberal policies (all evidence notwithstanding) are in the interests of society as a whole. No doubt they bear their unpopularity courageously, blaming it on the ingratitude or idiocy of the great unwashed masses.
    How would they know otherwise? They are just about the only inhabitants of the artificial world that they inhabit, for Europe is a country without people. Like Franz Joseph’s Empire it is a collection of peoples, not a prison house of nations but a waiting room or departure lounge where communication is, necessarily, limited because everyone speaks a different language, with the exception of those who merely speak mutually incomprehensible dialects- Geordies discussing hotel rooms with Alabamans. From such places there can never be any worthwhile ‘feedback.’ And without feedback the centre becomes increasingly ineffective.
    Which leaves us with the corporations litigating to prevent us from using Kipling’s short stories because they “bought’ the rights to them in 1981, or suing the NHS for using a drug they claim to own the patent to. As we see from the USA there seems to be no limit to the ambitions of the corporate sector.
    And the legal system increasingly, becomes closed to all but the rich. And, even then, given the fact that Judges are merely lawyers moonlighting, the system is run by those who have the highest respect for corporate interests and little understanding of democracy.
    Vox populi vox dei, said our Alcuin: the people have spoken. They may be mistaken but nothing can be more mistaken than to assume that they must be, because they aren’t experts, have vulgar tastes in music, wear cheap clothes and swear a lot. When the people have spoken there should be a period of respectful silence during which the meaning of what they say is considered.
    In this case the people have spoken and the response has been immediate, insolent and childish: they don’t know what they are doing. How could they?
    They are just the people of England. And they’ve never been listened to yet.

    • bevin

      This was originally a reply to Habbakuk at 13.31. I killed it when I finished it and this is what I recall. It is a classic case of “I’m sorry. I didn’t have time to write a shorter letter…”

    • Habbabkuk

      Bevin

      “But they also committed themselves to the US because they were anti-communist, many of them former collaborators with Mussolini, Petain and even less savoury characters..”

      _________________________

      Given what Uncle Joe had got up to in Central and Eastern Europe I think they might be forgiven for being anti-Communist, don’t you?

      I think you will find – if you were prepared to be honest – that amoung the founding fathers of the EEC the number of former collaborators could probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

  • Republicofscotland

    Momentum in Scotland appears to be building with regards to a second independence referendum. Hopefully those who voted no in 2014 will now consider voting yes. As many folk voted no to Scottish independence on the pretense, that voting no would keep them in the EU, a proclamation that Westminster and Better Together stated frequently.

    A strong Clarion Call, must be put forward by Scotland, if, Westminster tries to block a second indy ref. I call on all those who voted no in 2014 to Scottish independence, To now vote yes in a indy ref, let us stand as one.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    “…always keep a-hold of Nurse
    For fear of finding something worse.”

    Hilaire Belloc, Cautionary Tales for Children (1907)

  • Republicofscotland

    Scotland must strike while the iron is hot, by that I mean lets not wait two years until Westminster negotiates its way out of the EU. Let us push through the need for a second referendum on Scottish independence, whilst it’s fresh in the memory.

    Scotland’s First Minister Nicola Sturgeon spoke today outside Bute House with passion and comitment, on why we should remain in the EU. However it will take time for the wheels to turn to organise a second indy vote, and with 62% of Scots wishing to remain in the EU, a second indy ref and ergo independence is well within our grasp.

    • Alcyone: End every Cliche

      RepubicOfScotland, what’s your target per capita income/gdp?

      Let’s hear a little more about precisely what is within your ‘grasp’?

    • RobG

      I agree with the thrust of what you’re saying, in that Scotland should hold another independence referendum as soon as possible. The fact is, there’s no way that Washington will allow a Brexit. Britain will almost certainly remain in the EU: a matter of days after the Brexit vote a massive propaganda campaign is pushing for a 2nd referendum, which will of course vote In.

      During the Remain campaign the most corrupt prime minister the UK has ever had pledged that if Remain lost he would immediately invoke article 50, which would put Britain’s exit in formal/legal terms. Of course, on losing the pig lover didn’t do this. He didn’t even fall on his sword and properly resign.

      In one sense it’s fascinating watching it all unfold. In another sense this theatre of the grotesque/absurd can only make one weep.

      • Republicofscotland

        Rob.

        I’d imagine the Tories were in shock over the result to leave, many just didn’t believe leave could win, even Nigel Farage a staunch Brexiteer said in the wee hour of Friday morning that remain would win.

        So I very much doubt any solid or coherent contingency plans were ever drawn up, let alone put on stand by. Maybe that’s why Article 50 hasn’t been implimented by the Tories yet.

        But most importantly 17 million people voted to leave, if the Tories try to negate the vote, they’ll be blood on the streets. The Tories have made their bed, and now they must lie in it.

      • Jim

        Your opinions here are all of a piece with your assertions not 48 hours ago that the Remain vote was a certainty due to occult forces from the ‘Empire’ pulling the strings. Or the same conspiratorial ideas regarding the lack of an exit poll, when I (twice) provided you with the boringly prosaic reasons why one couldn’t be held. Or your blatant untruths regarding acknowledgement in Parliamentary eulogies for Jo Cox that she was a strong advocate for the Palestinian cause. No amount of evidence pushed in front of your eyes seems to penetrate your armour of self-deception and dissemination of utter rubbish.

  • bevin

    You are qualified to say anything you choose. I hope that you feel better tomorrow.

    • Alcyone: The 'What Is' is Sacred!

      bevin, thanks, am at the top-of-the-world!

      Don’t you just love Craig’s more (to borrow Jim’s phrase) bumptious moderation?

      I don’t really like to come to ‘conclusions’, for life is a moving thing; so, let’s just observe that Craig’s definition of ‘free’ whether it’s speech or his beloved Nation-Scotland is as spurious Russia’s ‘democracy’.

  • Ben Monad

    “, echoing the sentiments of citizens across the United States who were left struggling to understand why a democratically elected head of government would relinquish control simply because they had been shown to have made a spectacularly bad judgment call. “So he jeopardized the future of his country, and instead of spending the next several years remaining in power while trying to paper over his mistakes, he’s just gone? Where’s the part where he denies any wrongdoing or tries to blame somebody else? ”

    http://www.theonion.com/article/americans-confused-system-government-which-leader–53156

  • Republicofscotland

    So Britain’s vote to leave the EU, isn’t actually legally binding, but it would be political suicide for the Tories to try and push that angle to the 17 million voters who voted to leave, the die is cast as they say.

    The Tories could however fail to impliment article 50, in which it states they must inform the EU, that they intend to negotiate a withdrawal from the body. I suppose Boris and Co, could say they sent a letter to Juncker, informing him of British intentions, and it’s not their fault he didn’t get it, and just hope no one notices.

    • Habbabkuk

      I am not so sure that it would be political suicide.

      I think it is fairly clear that the referendum outcome is not legally binding. My “constitutional “question, as yet unanswered on here, was whether the govt could take the decision to initiate the Article 50 exit procedure without obtaining the approval of Parliament.

      What Edmund Burke said about the role of MPs might seem all the more relevant in a case where the Brexiteers won by a very small majority of around 75% of the eligible electorate.

      • Republicofscotland

        “Professor Vernon Bogdanor, one of Britain’s foremost constitutional experts said a second referendum is “highly unlikely”.

        “He told The Telegraph: “I don’t think the EU will wish to bargain any further, they will take this vote as final.”

        _______________

        Habb.

        Small majority or not vote leave won, 17 million people said no, it would he undemocratic to go behind their backs and try and have a rerun.

  • Ben Monad

    The irony keeps coming. Scotland dumps on indy, then wants to try again when the UK leaves the EU. A revolution to remain with the status quo….crazy.

    This is your Trump moment.

    • Ben Monad

      Hoodathunk Craig’s dream could come true vis-a-vis the Back Door and he gets a two-fer.

      Indy Scots in the EU.

      Priceless !!!

      • Alcyone: End every Cliche

        Gonad-Monad, are you gushing to appoint Craig the Foreign Secretary of the new Scotland member-state? Then he could also offer asylum to Assange and make it a (in your language) 3-fer?

        • Republicofscotland

          “to appoint Craig the Foreign Secretary of the new Scotland member-state?”

          ______________

          Alcyone.

          Well Craig does have FCO experience, it would be an ideal position for him, I for one would back his appointment.

  • Republicofscotland

    Incidently does anyone know what HRH Droopy Chops, and her parasitic broods take is on the EU exit?

    I know dud Dave Cameron visited old Saddle bag face in her beehive on Friday, I wonder if she purred as she did when Scotland voted no in 2014? Or maybe she screamed Oh Gawd! And slapped poor Dave with her pristine white glove?

    Either way I suppose it doesn’t really matter as the Royals these days tend to kowtow to Saudi Princes, as court jesters.

    • Habbabkuk

      Republicofscotland

      Do you believe your question about the position of the Monarch on Brexit gains in pertinence, clarity or elegance by referring to the features of her face?

  • Loony

    The Scottish Independence meme risks piling duplicity on duplicity.

    Scotland votes for independence because of its love of the EU. Independence is the only way this love can be be given manifest form due to the UK as whole rejecting the EU.

    Less than 48 hours after the referendum result it is already clear that forces are at work intending to subvert the will of the British people. Perhaps those forces will be successful.

    If Scotland becomes independent on the basis of the EU referendum result and ultimately the EU referendum result is not implemented that Scotland will have become independent on the basis of a lie and a fraud.

    Any honest Scottish nationalist would argue that the case for Scottish independence can only exist once there is irrefutable evidence that the Government in Westminster is actually executing the instructions that it has received from the British people. As of today no such evidence exists.

    • Republicofscotland

      Looney, says “no such evidence exists”

      Better Together, which represented Westminster swore blind that the only way Scotland would have a secure place within the EU, was to vote no to Scottish independence.

      David Cameron openly stated that the only way oil jobs in Scotland could be saved was through the broad shoulders of the UK, fast forward two years over 100,000 oil workers jobs have gone and Scotland has just been dragged out of the EU.

      • Loony

        Republic – What I said was that as of today there is no evidence of any concrete steps being taken by the UK government to give effect to the will of the British people – i.e. steps to withdraw the UK from membership of the EU.

        There is however evidence that forces are at work with the aim of subverting the will of the British people. There is no way of assessing how effective these attempts will be.

        As of this moment both Scotland and the rest of the UK remain members of the EU. The argument of Scottish nationalists can only have validity from the moment that the UK initiates observable (and preferably irrevocable) actions to withdraw from the EU.

        • MJ

          “as of today there is no evidence of any concrete steps being taken by the UK government to give effect to the will of the British people”

          It is of course the sitting government’s duty to implement the will of the British people to the best of its ability. That is the government’s job.
          .
          When it called the referendum there were only two possible outcomes: remain or leave. It will have undertaken detailed contingency planning to cover either possibility, regardless of which was its preferred option.

          It is now the duty of the government to announce and implement its Plan B. The first task will be to invoke Article 50 asap.

  • RobG

    There’s lots of petitions knocking around at the moment.

    Perhaps someone can start a petition calling for the arrest and prosecution of the total traitors and loons in GCHQ, MI5, MI6 and all the other so-called ‘security services’.

    • Ba'al Zevul

      I see that the petition is justifying itself by arguing that less than x% of a y% turnout voted to leave, and that this is less than z% in total and we wuz robbed. Lacking the will to live, after the pre-and post-referendum all-media thinkpieceathon, let alone the will to do the numbers, could someone please tell me what proportion of elections, referenda, etc, since universal suffrage was introduced,
      actually made the grade that the petitioners would like?

      Wake me up after Cameron’s gone, anyway.

      • James

        …and then there was Boris !
        The Magic round a bout of crap !

        Well, the “grey vote” got their say.
        Disusted of Regis On The Thames has “fecked it up” again !

        Makes me laugh when Far-far-far-away-Age gets his figures wrong.
        Well, this is it boys (as the “baby boomers” didn’t say, when they didn’t leap off the landing craft and didn’t liberate Europe…but don’t let facts get in the way of a good story).

        You have “saved” 10 billion ! And cut off a Trading Partner !
        Have you checked “Gov Dot Mad Spending” lately ???

        Europe NEEDS reform.
        Massive REFORM.
        Has this helped in any way ?

        Me… no effect. GFA allows me “NI” regs on .passports. I hold both !
        I am still “in the EU” !

          • michael norton

            Tottenham MP Mr Lammy called on his fellow europhile politicians to “end this madness”.

            lampost

        • Ba'al Zevul

          I’m still working, NI ‘pilot’ bloke. And I’ve been in the forces too. Probably about the same time as you, which would make us of similar ages. Your attempt to masquerade as yoot, bruv, is laughable. Now suck it up like a good zob (retd’d) and lend your unique miltary skills -if not your chronic inarticulacy, to the situation as it is, not the one you would like it to be.

  • Alan

    Were you a Remain campaigner? Are you sore about the referendum result?

    Check out these 10 top self-comforting strategies.

    1) Jump out of your pram.

    2) Hand back your medals.

    3) Use the word “populist” instead of “popular”, each time with a vicious snarl on your face.

    4) Bathe in a warm glow of self-righteousness knowing that you were on the same side as Geldorf, Izzard, Blair, Brown, Mandelscum, Cameron, Diane Abbott, Corbyn, the Kinnock and Miliband Dynasties, Juncker, Merkel, Hollande, Obama, Lagarde and David Beckham and AGAINST John Mann, Frank Field, Tony Benn, Dennis Skinner, Geoff Dyson and Joe Bamford.

    5) Sign a petition demanding an immediate rerefendum repeat expecting a different result (something usually reserved for lunatics, but not uncommon in the EU.)

    6) Call every white person who voted LEAVE a “racist”, ignoring the fact that Europeans are also white. Treat ethnic minority LEAVE voters as some kind of weird aberration to be ignored.

    7) Claim that the (huge) turnout wasn’t high enough. 72%? It should have been at least 75%! 80%? It should have been 85%! Make sure to keep moving the goalposts.

    8) Get over-excited about the economy, even if the impact has been pretty boring and mundane. Pretend that your 2:2 in English Literature or your 3rd in Sociology make you an expert on currency markets.

    9) Attack the very idea of Democracy, because it’s only a good thing when it goes the way you want it to. Working-class voters don’t know what’s good for them, but middle-class liberals definitely do.

    10) Share memes bashing Brexit, ignoring the unwelcome and uncomfortable realisation that you are in the minority of public opinion.

    11) Boldly claim that Scotland will leave the UK, forgetting that A) they can’t afford to B) the EU can’t afford to take them C) 1.6m remain votes don’t cancel out 2m NO votes.

    12) Make fun of Boris Johnson while sweating slightly and really hoping he doesn’t become Prime Minister.

    13) Continue to call Farage “a racist”, ignoring the fact that 52% of the population agree with him.

    14) Learn absolutely nothing from the campaign, blaming the result on everyone but yourself. Scaremongering and bullying are clearly the best tactics to use; there’s no way they could possibly backfire.

    15) Curl up in a ball and cry yourself to sleep while listening to “Ode to Joy”and staring lovingly at a portrait of Blair, Junker, Merkel and Hollande.

    Author Chris Snuggs

  • James

    I’ll help you…as you seem to be the “Grey loons” that can’t workout numbers.

    Electorate is ?
    Turnout is ?
    Votes “one way” or “the other” is ?
    Population …is “another thing completely”

    BUT since we are spending £90 Billion on Pensions….. I guess everyone is crazy !

    • Alan

      BUT since we are spending £90 Billion on Pensions…

      But James, Drearie, anybody on a pension spent their whole working life paying in for it. Do you have some objection to that system, Drearie?

    • nevermind

      Good point James, since it was a vast amount of retired votes who joined the politically inept, plus those who got a postal vote shoved through the letterbox when the campaign started and voted instantly, to get it out of the way and be done with the pesky politics, these people should be sharing the pain their working compatriots soon will be subjected to.

      Its becoming clear that article 50 delays, for some backstabbing and coiffured press announcements, jostling and hand wringing, will hold up all that eagerness t on display, all that taking over of control and taking the country back.

      Instead the lawyersd argues that article 50 has to be initiated by the relevant country wanting to leave, as it is we are being subjected to an establishment reorganisation, a nasty and long running Tory split plus a Labour bun fight for the right to stork the podium at election time. That this inconveniences 27 other countries who really have serious other issues to deal with must not get in the way of selfishness though.

      When is the 1922 committee, always fast to act when it suits them, going to replace this lame duck and deal with the business in hand, or was this referendum failure ordered by Washington to piss off the EU a little more until they sign these TTIP abnd TISA agreements?

      We have been and still are willing stooges to maniacs talking of world Government, who think nothing of deliberately sending countries into chaos for the sake of some rich corporations who smart at world domination, just as the NSDAP once did.

      To whip up nationalist fervour ever further, bomb Assad and wind up the Russians, the time has come for Europe to pay its price, we are being selected to become the new theatre of war.

      Now please continue to discuss quiff’s and facial expressions of a bumbling idiot who is now stifled by the work he’s heaped on himself.

  • James

    1) Why ? I don’t have a pram

    2) Medals. I have several. Ex AAC pilot. Gazelle and mainly Puma (Tours of NI and Balkans) You ?

    3) Never “snarl”. Just feel “pity”

    4) Same side ? Nope, logic.

    5) Sign a petition. Nope. Worthless. It’s done now. That’s it.

    6) There were “racist” slants. There is no denying there was not. Over 65’s love it !

    7) There was no “above X turnout” in this referendum. (See Wales/Scotland Dev Circa 1970 for that caveat)

    8) Wow ! Personal. I went to Edinburgh *the proper one (so I did 4 years !)

    9) Democracy was better “explained” (“attacked”) by the like of others ! Care to read !

    10) Minority ! Accepted… explain that when in 10 years when these are dead and others have to cope !

    11) Scotland will re vote. Their outcome is discussed heavily in the Scottish press now.

    12) Boris is “shocked”. And the Estonian will “wait” before he makes his claim on “the title”.

    13) Farage lied. Like “52% of the population” is a lie. Your words, not mine .

    14) Hmmm “using “Project Fear” is not scaremongering ! Hey ho !

    15) That’s just bizarre !

    Any other questions, you OAP facist dick ?

    • michael norton

      In no other major economy was industrial collapse so quick. For a time, well-meaning journalists reported the catastrophe, and then gradually the sight of empty towns and shuttered shops became normalised or forgotten.

      It seemed there was nothing to be done. At one time, the country’s prosperity had been underpinned by the spinning, weaving, stitching, hammering, banging, welding and smelting that went on in the manufacturing towns; much of the country’s former character was also owed to them.
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/25/brexit-vote-poor-elite

      Ordinary working class people – retired-with or without work
      voted to leave the hated E.U.

      If you despise their choice, you also despise them.

      • James

        Is that to me ?

        The world moved Michael. Buggy Whips are no longer needed.

        I think the EU needs to change. Maybe the “out” vote is the way to (gamble) on doing it.
        The UK pays in the second most, it returns only 36.8% of that investment.
        Germany pays in more ! And yet it returns more (44.2%).
        The Netherlands gets the best shafting. (35.4%).
        Poland. Now they are “the best” in this game (385.7% on their investment).

        Reform Europe.
        Maybe THIS is the best way ? It kicks arse.
        BUT we have to “do a deal”.
        Between Dave and Boris, this country is “fucked”.
        We are TOO BUSY working out “Who beat Whom” to understand the figures.

        Me, I’d “rally round” the Netherlands and Sweden.
        They are also “getting fucked” by the “EU Commission” (NOT by being in the EU. Get the difference yet)

        ….and for feck sake, stop those “son of a bitches” talking about “war” and “beating German”.
        My medals SAY that I flew in “conflict zones”. These “OAPS” are cheering “feckknows what” and NONE actually “served the country”.

        • michael norton

          James, I know buggy whips are now mostly used by gypsies.
          But we still need steel, we still need trains, we still need Vacuum cleaners, so we should actually make stuff
          not buy all of it from China, china where there are no rights for anyone.
          Try asking for a Referendum in China
          and see how far it takes you, to a re-education center if you are lucky.

    • Alan

      “Any other questions?”

      What do you mean “Other Questions”?

      I printed an article containing a statement by Chris Snuggs containing no questions at all, simply suggestions. Do feel free to interrogate him. You could be making a big mistake arguing with me so do please free to apologise.

      In the meantime, I suggest you stop at 1) Jump out of your pram.

      • James

        Alan….

        ….lets get our “ribbons” out shall we ?
        Shall we compare “where we were when” and re-live our past days ?
        I remember “trying” “T/O” when we were overloaded in “Boz” doing Cas Evacs.
        I remember ferrying over my mums house in South Armagh.
        I remember helping the “mechanics” on shitty nights when we went tech.
        I remember so much shit !
        The Denmark crews that helped us. The French guys that prep’d are aircraft. The Germans and their fuel supplies (that never seemed to end).

        Whilst you slept Alan (you cunt) WE relied on each other !
        You’re not British. You stupid.

        • Alan

          Information continues to come in about the Brexit vote. A member of the British Army said that 90% of the lads in his unit voted to leave.

          They voted exit because they do not believe they should be involved in Washington’s wars. He said that his unit agreed that the wars are dictated by Washington, via Brussels, and not by the British people. He also said that that the soldiers were “taking their own pen” to the ballot box, because “they only use pencils at the polls and they could be rubbed out and changed.”

          Richie Allen in London, a radio presenter in Manchester, England, said that as an Irishman he remembers how the Irish vote against the EU was overturned when the people rejected the Lisbon Treaty and that already in England “they’ve begun talking about the possibility that the EU will come back with a better offer.” In other words, the exit vote is not being treated as meaningful.

          And as Stephen Lendman reports, the propaganda is already in high gear with David Cameron setting the tone by emphasizing how happy the vote has surely made Putin and ISIS (somehow these two deadly enemies are happy over the same thing!). The self-hating Russian, Garry Kasparov, said Brexit was “the perfect gift for Vladimir Putin,” as Britain’s exit leaves the EU a “weakened institution with less power to confront Putin’s assaults on Europe’s borders.” What assaults, Garry?

          Former US ambassador to Russia Michael McFaul is “shocked, shocked!” The US and EU lost, Putin wins.

          Of course, the vote had nothing to do with Putin or Russia. But the liars are going to try to make the British feel that they betrayed England and gave Russia power over Europe. Russian spokesman Dmitry Peskov replied to the nonsense: We are accustomed to “the Russian factor” as the explanation of all events in the universe.

          The British people might think that they are out of the EU, but they are not. They have a long hard fight ahead. Washington and the British political and media establishments that serve Washington are not going to let them leave.

    • Alan

      James asks “Any other questions, you OAP fascist dick?”

      https://off-guardian.org/2016/06/25/guardian-watch-insults-fly-in-post-brexit-hysteria/

      The “old people” being discussed would have been young in the 1960s and 70s. They would be old hippies and baby-boomers. The idea of “grandma being a bit racist in and old-fashioned way”, does not work when today’s grandmas were listening to the Beatles and marching against Vietnam. These “old people” are the generation that voted FOR the EU last time, and now have 40+ years of experience of living with their decision. Do we do them credit, and assume they have changed their minds based on their life experience? Should we respect that 40 years of living and working in this country means people have EARNED their right to be heard? No, we are encouraged to dismiss them and insult their motives.

      And I was certainly one of those “racist fascists” you talk about marching against Vietnam.

      Now wash your filthy mouth out, little fly-boy! How many borwn people have you killed?

      • Alan

        The majority vote by Britons to leave the European Union was an act of raw democracy. Millions of ordinary people refused to be bullied, intimidated and dismissed with open contempt by their presumed betters in the major parties, the leaders of the business and banking oligarchy and the media.

        This was, in great part, a vote by those angered and demoralised by the sheer arrogance of the apologists for the “remain” campaign and the dismemberment of a socially just civil life in Britain. The last bastion of the historic reforms of 1945, the National Health Service, has been so subverted by Tory and Labour-supported privateers it is fighting for its life.

        A forewarning came when the Treasurer, George Osborne, the embodiment of both Britain’s ancient regime and the banking mafia in Europe, threatened to cut £30 billion from public services if people voted the wrong way; it was blackmail on a shocking scale.

        Immigration was exploited in the campaign with consummate cynicism, not only by populist politicians from the lunar right, but by Labour politicians drawing on their own venerable tradition of promoting and nurturing racism, a symptom of corruption not at the bottom but at the top. The reason millions of refugees have fled the Middle East – irst Iraq, now Syria – are the invasions and imperial mayhem of Britain, the United States, France, the European Union and Nato. Before that, there was the wilful destruction of Yugoslavia. Before that, there was the theft of Palestine and the imposition of Israel.

        The pith helmets may have long gone, but the blood has never dried. A nineteenth century contempt for countries and peoples, depending on their degree of colonial usefulness, remains a centrepiece of modern “globalisation”, with its perverse socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor: its freedom for capital and denial of freedom to labour; its perfidious politicians and politicised civil servants.

        All this has now come home to Europe, enriching the likes of Tony Blair and impoverishing and disempowering millions. On 23 June, the British said no more.

        The most effective propagandists of the “European ideal” have not been the far right, but an insufferably patrician class for whom metropolitan London is the United Kingdom. Its leading members see themselves as liberal, enlightened, cultivated tribunes of the 21st century zeitgeist, even “cool”. What they really are is a bourgeoisie with insatiable consumerist tastes and ancient instincts of their own superiority. In their house paper, the Guardian, they have gloated, day after day, at those who would even consider the EU profoundly undemocratic, a source of social injustice and a virulent extremism known as “neoliberalism”.

        The aim of this extremism is to install a permanent, capitalist theocracy that ensures a two-thirds society, with the majority divided and indebted, managed by a corporate class, and a permanent working poor. In Britain today, 63 per cent of poor children grow up in families where one member is working. For them, the trap has closed. More than 600,000 residents of Britain’s second city, Greater Manchester, are, reports a study, “experiencing the effects of extreme poverty” and 1.6 million are slipping into penury.

        Little of this social catastrophe is acknowledged in the bourgeois controlled media, notably the Oxbridge dominated BBC. During the referendum campaign, almost no insightful analysis was allowed to intrude upon the clichéd hysteria about “leaving Europe”, as if Britain was about to be towed in hostile currents somewhere north of Iceland.

        On the morning after the vote, a BBC radio reporter welcomed politicians to his studio as old chums. “Well,” he said to “Lord” Peter Mandelson, the disgraced architect of Blairism, “why do these people want it so badly?” The “these people” are the majority of Britons.

        The wealthy war criminal Tony Blair remains a hero of the Mandelson “European” class, though few will say so these days. The Guardian once described Blair as “mystical” and has been true to his “project” of rapacious war. The day after the vote, the columnist Martin Kettle offered a Brechtian solution to the misuse of democracy by the masses. “Now surely we can agree referendums are bad for Britain”, said the headline over his full-page piece. The “we” was unexplained but understood – just as “these people” is understood. “The referendum has conferred less legitimacy on politics, not more,” wrote Kettle. ” … the verdict on referendums should be a ruthless one. Never again.”

        The kind of ruthlessness Kettle longs for is found in Greece, a country now airbrushed. There, they had a referendum and the result was ignored. Like the Labour Party in Britain, the leaders of the Syriza government in Athens are the products of an affluent, highly privileged, educated middle class, groomed in the fakery and political treachery of post-modernism. The Greek people courageously used the referendum to demand their government sought “better terms” with a venal status quo in Brussels that was crushing the life out of their country. They were betrayed, as the British would have been betrayed.

        On Friday, the Labour Party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, was asked by the BBC if he would pay tribute to the departed Cameron, his comrade in the “remain” campaign. Corbyn fulsomely praised Cameron’s “dignity” and noted his backing for gay marriage and his apology to the Irish families of the dead of Bloody Sunday. He said nothing about Cameron’s divisiveness, his brutal austerity policies, his lies about “protecting” the Health Service. Neither did he remind people of the war mongering of the Cameron government: the dispatch of British special forces to Libya and British bomb aimers to Saudi Arabia and, above all, the beckoning of world war three.

        In the week of the referendum vote, no British politician and, to my knowledge, no journalist referred to Vladimir Putin’s speech in St. Petersburg commemorating the seventy-fifth anniversary of Nazi Germany’s invasion of the Soviet Union on 22 June, 1941. The Soviet victory – at a cost of 27 million Soviet lives and the majority of all German forces – won the Second World War.

        Putin likened the current frenzied build up of Nato troops and war material on Russia’s western borders to the Third Reich’s Operation Barbarossa. Nato’s exercises in Poland were the biggest since the Nazi invasion; Operation Anaconda had simulated an attack on Russia, presumably with nuclear weapons. On the eve of the referendum, the quisling secretary-general of Nato, Jens Stoltenberg, warned Britons they would be endangering “peace and security” if they voted to leave the EU. The millions who ignored him and Cameron, Osborne, Corbyn, Obama and the man who runs the Bank of England may, just may, have struck a blow for real peace and democracy in Europe.

        Follow John Pilger on twitter @johnpilger and on Facebook

        http://johnpilger.com/articles/why-the-british-said-no-to-europe

  • exiled off mainstreet

    I actually don’t see how the SNP program could survive in an EU framework. If they don’t want to end like Syriza in Greece, they should come up with a back-up plan, since the EU thing was partly tactical to create a new framework for an independence referendum. That would be to have another referendum on EU membership following independence. Since 38% voted against the EU despite the tactical use of an EU referendum voted on by England to go for independence, it is not assured that 50% would affirmatively vote to join that organisation based on its role, for instance, in neighbouring Ireland.

      • James

        It’s Irish.
        Ya big eejit.

        How is is it, the only point of my argument, is the word “feck” !
        If I was to say (in my native tongue) “I’ll have a word in your ear”, what words would you say I spoke ?

        You are so un-European

        Should I paint a big star on my shirt ?
        Perhaps yellow ?
        Ya sick shite ( pronounced “ya shick shite”).

        PS… as a “fick” Oiyish man (Northern Irish) I…..achieved a lot !

        • James

          P.S. Ben

          You’ll end up “worse off”, should we debate ! (smiley face n’ shite !)

          • Ben Monad

            The worst thing i can say about you connects to your career..’Engineer’…lol

            The best thing I can say about ‘engineers’ (pilot) is they are minutely focused on the minutiae to the detriment of context. Myopia is a virtue in this precise world. It’s only a detriment outside that limited venue.

          • Ben Monad

            Tunnel-vision needs no explanation. i think you are considered legally blind if you have no depth-perception and as such have a restricted driving license.

  • Alan

    Oh dear, it looks like the Finns are wanting Independence from the EU too.

    http://sputniknews.com/politics/20160625/1041960724/finland-referendum-eu.html

    Launched by Finns Party youth organization chairman Sebastian Tynkkynen, who had earlier welcomed the results of Thursday’s Brexit vote in the United Kingdom, the petition has so far gathered one fifth of the number of signatures required before it can be considered by the country’s parliament, the Yle public broadcaster reported.

    • James

      WOW !

      It must be true !
      I think she has (erm) lawyers that have thought this thru.

      Need I quote “case Law” here ?
      Think about it….

      And I thought “this place” was a “debate” !
      So far…”kidz”.

      1. Scot ref Pt 1 was…..on the basis of…etc
      2. Fail of such means…etc
      3. Is it poss ? Well. it is likely as Scot Law indicates such

      Fundamental change, voids prev criteria.

      I

  • James

    Ben !

    Engineering ! I’d love that. It is a fine career.
    No, I am a pilot. I have been since my army days. It was a dream.
    But you…. you just talk in riddles…and without sense !
    I guess I was fortunate…or better.

    I’d say, better.

  • James

    I love it when they say “Look at the SWISS” !

    Non EU
    In the heart of Europe !

    Try and buy a glass of wine in Zurich !
    Or a salad (with Salmon…. dressing separate).

    Ah, yes… you OAP’s have never travelled, except for a “holiday”.

    WOW… how good are the Swiss !
    Oh, add the Canton tax
    Then the food
    And how much was that wine !

    You English could not even come close to the cost of “being sucstressful”
    The Swiss do ! Thay hate the cost and the stress…

    But England and Wales win….! Good luck !

    • Alan

      Ah, yes… you OAP’s have never travelled, except for a “holiday”.

      LMAO

      I left Britain when Ted Heath took us into the EU.

      Ben is an American so he’s probably out watching “the game”, whatever game he watches on a Saturday afternoon

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