The BBC spin on Nicola Sturgeon’s speech was that actually it was a move further back from Indyref2. It can be interpreted that way. In effect she was saying that leaving the EU is perhaps not a “material change” triggering Indyref2, only hard Brexit would be a “material change”. On this reading, as given by Brian Taylor of the BBC, the publishing of a draft Indyref bill is simply a sop to placate the SNP troops in the hall.
But I am satisfied that Nicola has in fact deliberately set conditions for Scotland to remain in the Union which she knows Theresa May will under no circumstances meet. Barring continued full access for Scotland to the single market, which simply cannot happen if England leaves it, then she insists that not only must the powers held by Brussels come to Scotland (eg fisheries) but that Scotland must control its own immigration policy and run its own foreign relations.
Now nobody is more fervent than me in wanting to get on with Independence and an early second referendum. But I am very happy with the criteria which Nicola has set out, which Theresa May is bound to attempt to sweep right over on the current wave of xenophobic jingoism prevailing in England. Not only will Sturgeon’s conditions not be met, it will be made very plain very quickly that they are not going to be met.
I think like all decent people, Nicola Sturgeon was quite genuinely appalled by celebration of open racism at the Tory party conference – her passage on this was very strong and very good. That has spurred her to abandon some of her usual caution and not really leave herself an out. We are going to see a second Independence referendum before the next Scottish parliamentary elections, and I am extremely happy about it.
Hopeful signs indeed. An independent Scotland may be a silver lining in the Brexit cloud.
I still think some way to skirt around the Brexit vote and continue in the EU will be conjured up from somewhere. The xenophobes can’t get what they want and the costs are crippling.
Yes You Are
But Left To Wumin There Would be Less Wars
Thatcher? Hillary Clinton?
Fewer wars.
i think so Kemp
Kempe. We’re not in the Victorian era anymore. The fastidious need to tame the English language into controllable rules is, thankfully, behind us.
It was only ever about social control anyway.
Yeah, Shatty, less ferget all abot grammer , sintax and speling, eh, its all a cappitalist plot iniit.
Habbabkuk; “Yeah, Shatty, less ferget all abot grammer , sintax and speling, eh, its all a cappitalist plot iniit.”
I’m almost minded to absolve you of your historical and (at times) histrionic interventions on this (occasionally) rancorous blog. You’ve gone up in our esoteric and eccentric estimation, Sir, not, of course, that that unsolicited epithet, will unduly exercise you … 😉
Yes Hab lets we’ve already dropped most in the last 50 years, I’m sure that will continue no matter what you old grandads think.
Shatty
You may well be right about the dropping.
Reliable sources inform me that grammar schools used to teach English grammar but that comprehensives don’t bother.
Mind you, the only losers are the poor kids who can’t get jobs because they are – according to employers – unable to string together a proper sentence (or do even simple arithmetic).
Astute canny politics by SNP and Nicola Sturgeon. Building up the momentum and pressure on the UKG knowing that they will never comply with Scotlands wishes. Great blog Craig thanks.
I cant remember the last time I dissagreed with you craig but I have my reservations on your oppinion of what westminster will accept in order to keep their grubby hands on Scotlands assets . I can forsee Westminster agreeing to some sort of arrangement ( if the EU would also agree) that would give Scotland a measure of autonomy in regard to some sort of continuing membership of the EU, or at least the offer of it in order to get the UK through the Brexit negotiations without having to fight battles on two fronts at the same time. Can you imagine the state of the pound if there was to be an independence campaign at the same time as exit from the EU negotiations. A UK with Scotland still some sort of member could very well be atractive as a gateway arrangement for England.
I think what you’ve been missing is that Sturgeon is trying to position herself to be forced into calling indyref2.
She knows that there is a large fraction of the electorate who don’t want a second indyref and will vote to stay because they’re pissed off at having a second one – but are persuadable to vote YES if they feel the second indyref was inevitable.
There’s a risk in the strategy – the risk is that she gives Westminster an out and they take it, at which point she’s manoeuvered herself out of an indyref – but the reward is a second indyref that she’s more likely to win.
She’s also manoeuvering in relation to the EU, trying to strengthen her negotiating position; she’s certainly going to want to retain at least some of the UK opt-outs, and Scotland retaining the UK’s membership would be ideal (if Brexit and Scottish independence both happen on the same day, it’s possible), but that will require the EU27 to favour Scotland.
“Nicola has in fact deliberately set conditions for Scotland to remain in the Union which she knows Theresa May will under no circumstances meet.”
___________________________
You are right – it is inconceivable that a region of any country, whatever the the status of the region (eg, an autonomous region) or the nature of the state (even if it is a federal or confederal state) can exercise its own immigration or foreign policy and I challenge you to name any (preferably democratic) state where this is the case.
That is why Ms Sturgeon, by setting out such conditions, reveals herself to be a fundamentally dishonest politician and no different to the other UK politicians whom you regularly castigate.
Scotland has it’s own legal system which it retained in 1707 with the union. What’s more the Scottish legal system is fully recognised by the EU and has full parity as a legal system with the legal systems of the EU member states.
That is correct – but has nothing to do with my point, does it.
I issue to you the same challenge as I issued to Craig at 10h55.
“That is why Ms Sturgeon, by setting out such conditions, reveals herself to be a fundamentally dishonest politician and no different to the other UK politicians whom you regularly castigate.”
Well said, Sir!
“That is why Ms Sturgeon, by setting out such conditions, reveals herself to be a fundamentally dishonest politician and no different to the other UK politicians whom you regularly castigate.”
A fundamentalist certainly but is that dishonesty? When a Christian Fundamentalist says the world is less than 10,000 years old are they being dishonest or just deluded?
If it helps you, Fred, I shall revise what I wrote to read as follows : “..a deeply dishonest politician..”.
Yo are diverting by quibbling.
If you’re referring to yourself, covertly in that little teaser, then I’d most certainly plump for the latter option.
However, there may be some hope for the Christian, you I fear, well….
Scotland is a country, not a region.
“A country is a region that is identified as a distinct national entity in political geography.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country
Scotland is a country which is constitutionally part of Great Britain and part of the United Kingdom.
It accordingly has not and cannot act separately in immigration matters or have its own, independent foreign policy.
Those are matters reserved for the central govt.
I issue to same challenge to you as I issued to Craig (above).
The constitution of Great Britain is akin to a collander full of smoke and metaphorical mirrors.
The UK no writen constitution. They simply make it up as they go along.
“The UK has no written constitution. They simply make it up as they go along.”
But of course. A country has to be free to adapt its laws to reflect world and domestic changes, not set on an 1812 document that we all worship as given to us by some god, as they do in Exceptionalistan.
“We’ve got our guns to protect us!” Really? The police now have sonic cannons and the like.
Unfortunately for Scotland, as you can see here:
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en
“The United Kingdom” is listed as a member, as is Ireland, but there simply is no mention anywhere of Scotland being a member. Scotland has zero rights to negotiate with the EU on their own, and Ms Sturgeon is being disingenuous by pretending otherwise.
But then, she is a politician.
Yes Tracy, Scotland is a country, in a union, that union shortly to be dissolved forever.
Geez Get a Grip Hab
Sorry, Fuji-san, but what is your point?
Scotland is a country, not a region, The UK is not a country, it is a Union of countries set up as equal partners.
With Scotland more equal than the rest.
Quebec I believe exercises its own immigration policies.
I believe not but please elaborate for our edification.
(Just in case you might be thinking of possibilities like the Quebec govt encouraging incomers to become proficient in French, eg in order to qualify for social housing, this is not what most people – including Craig – would understand as “immigration policy”). And Quebec does not of course exercise its own foreign policy, which is the second element mentioned by Craig)
Sturgeon, Salmond and the rest of the SNP high command have completely outmanoeuvred the Westminster establishment. In the chess game the unionists have now lost too many capital pieces. Some of them thrown away through their own stupidity and arrogance.
I think it is a little bold – and certainly premature – to say that Ms Sturgeon and her party have “completely outmanoeuvred” central government. We shall see.
But anyway, even if your thesis were correct, and given the substance of the issue (the impossibility of part of a state to have its own immigration and foreign policy), what you say would merely support what I said about Ms Sturgeon and Co. being deeply dishonest UK politicians of the sort Craig frequently castigates in his posts.
Habba- this may be a premature ejaculation by click track of considerable proportions- unless T May really is the romantic Unionist that her speech on the steps of Downing St back in July suggested, and will therefore beg to keep Scotland in the Union at any price.
Personally I take the view that May’s professed Unionism is PR camoflage; she has uttered all these nice words about keeping the Scots and Northern Irish sweet, but she doesn’t actually mean them. If these appendages to the UK are a hindrance to South Britain getting what it wants from the Brexit negotiations, they can be jettisoned (with, undoubtedly in the case of NI) considerable savings to the overall UK balance sheet.
A large and growing cohort of English and Welsh voters are probably itching to say Good Riddance to these cold climate naysayers; the Army no longer particularly needs Scotch and Irish cannon fodder (as it undoubtedly did in the past), NI has always been a basket case and a massive geopolitical headache, and Scotland, with its dwindling stock of easily recoverably hydocarbons, is heading the same way, economically, as NI. (The deep water oil & gas deposits in waters to the west of Scotland are about as economically viable as the large scale lignite deposits around Lough Neagh in NI).
Clearly you’ve never heard of renewable energy. Or want to pretend there is no such thing. Or want to pretend Scotland isn’t superbly endowed with it.
Click Track- If it is wind farms you are referring to there are plenty of windy spots in England & Wales as well, in case you hadn’t noticed.
The River Severn also has the strongest riverine tides on anywhere in W Europe- so if we ever get the technology to work in that renewables arena, then South Britain will also be fine & dandy, thank you very much.
As for Solar power – well I think we all know which country of the UK is the clear poor relation in that Dept.
Click track
What proportion of Scotland’s energy needs are currently met from renewables?
The implication of what you say is that Scotland will make up its fiscal shortfall from oil by taxing renewables if and when they come on stream. Are you saying that?
Old Mark
You may well have a good point there (third para).
May I say that you have made some very valid points over the last few threads? Thank you for your substantive and thoughtful contributions.
Thanks Habba- we often don’t see eye to eye, but your interventions here frequently make me think , and sometimes even revise my initial thoughts about the points Craig makes in his posts, which is surely the purpose of a lively, robust comments thread
The BBC, the British public broadcaster has become a propaganda outlet worse than propaganda at the height of cold war… comments say it all about what is happening n England. I find it very disturbing indeed myself.
https://twitter.com/dinosofos/status/786840367794688000
Latest polls show that despite the Brexit vote enthusiasm for independence is largely unchanged from the referendum – still less than 50% – and that’s before the implications of joining the EU have come under any proper scrutiny. Blame the BBC and the British establishment to your heart’s content but it’s the Scottish people you need to be concerned about.
“and that’s before the implications of joining the EU have come under any proper scrutiny.”
I think you meant ‘leaving’, not joining, as Scotland is in the EU at the moment?
No, I meant joining. If Scotland leaves the UK it will have to join the EU if that’s what it wants to do.
@MJ.
So you are stating that Scotland will be thrown out of the EU as soon as May triggers Article 50?
If not, I fail to see how Scotland will have to re-join, if they become independent before the 2 years are up, and simply stay in?
I was not commenting on the situation re referendum, I am in no position to comment, it is up to the people in Scotland to decide their future path. I was commenting on BBC and the apparent growing intolerance and acceptance of mocking political figures in England. I see a gorilla escape is all over many press/media outlets… no doubt the excuses will follow but the clip was shown for a good few seconds… a collaborative media campaign to mock Sturgeon or a genuine technical ‘slip up’?
Manda
“I was commenting on BBC….. and acceptance of mocking political figures in England.”
_____________________
Yes, mocking political figures has a long and respected pedigree in England. As you are probably a middle-aged callow youth (so to speak) whose memory does not stretch back very far let us not mention the 19 century but confine ourselves to the staire boom of the 1960s and subsequently (TW3, Private Eye, etc….ad nauseam).
I am older than you assume.
BBC is not supposed to be a satirical news and current events broadcaster is it? Satire has an important role in political comment. Perhaps it was a genuine error and perhaps I am just over sensitive… I found the clip disturbing, that is all.
If you are older than I assume then I shall assume you recall that TW3 went out on BBC television.
If Scotland held a second once in a generation Referendum and the result was 48.9% Yes – 51.1 No.
Would Frau Nicola Sturgeon say ” That’s good enough for me, I am going for Independence, whatever the voters want”?
Most recent polls that have merely asked the question about how people would vote in indyref2 have put Yes between 48% and 52%. Polls in the same period that have asked the question about how people would vote if Scotland has to leave the EU against our wishes puts Yes well ahead, with the most recent having Yes at 55%.
Yes started indyref1 on 27% and managed to get 45% – we won’t go into the subject of unionist electoral fraud – so if Yes starts indyref2 anywhere between 48% and 58% the pro-indy camp isn’t going into the campaign lacking confidence.
Voting No to take Scotland out the EU. Voting No to have Scotland’s NHS have it’s funding greatly reduced because England’s NHS privatisation is now well advanced. Voting No to keep Trident on the Clyde. Voting No to have England voting in very right wing governments to rule Scotland every five years. Voting No for austerity Tory style. In order for Scotland to choose all that this time No would have to start the campaign on at the very least 62%.Whereas they’re on 52% at most.
“Yes started indyref1 on 27% and managed to get 45%”
No started very low too – there were a lot of undecideds at the beginning.
The majority of the Don’t Knows eventually went with Yes in the devolution referendum in 1997. The same thing happened in indyref1.
Not in sufficient numbers obviously.
2 reasons why being in the EU is a big mistake now.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-13/doug-casey-quitaly-collapse-eu
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-13/french-prime-minister-argues-united-states-europe-its-own-military
Fight for Brussels? You must be joking…
EUSSR
That is a splendid handle (albeit rather “clunking” if I may say so). A good conflation of “EU” and “USSR”, I imagine.
But I have not seen it before on this blog: are you a first time poster, moved to action by the intellectual integrity and force of Craig’s post, or have you posted before under a different handle(s)?
Just curious about context, you understand.
I’m waiting for Ms Sturgeon to promise to “make Scotland great again”.
Source
Source? The Donald.
Having the government you voted for is just normal democracy. Aspiring to greatness is for fools. The people of Scotland aren’t essentially fools.
Ta Clic Tok
You sound Familiar
amd By the way True
“Having the government you voted for is just normal democracy”
I can go further than that, if you and Brian want to be so serious about a trivial joke about a politician.
People generally elect the governments they deserve and the source for that was Joseph de Maistre.
“Toute nation a le gouvernement qu’elle mérite.”
Yeah. Joseph de Maistre. He would be right at home in the current political atmosphere in England.
I assume that is a cheap shot about the alleged ‘racist’ political atmoshere down here click track, and not a reference to de Maistre’s s extremely conservative take on Catholicism- a politico/religious brand pretty well defunct in 2016 England-
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Works-Joseph-Maistre-Marie/dp/0805203044
As would Oswald Mosley, he’d had a field day at the Tory conference.
As would Oswald Mosley, he’d had a field day at the Tory conference-
click treat-
Mosley was of course an extreme Europhile- his post war political vehicle was the ‘Union Movement’ – Union in this context meaning Europen Union. The post WW2 Mosley dropped British nationalism for European nationalism- as anyone familiar with Robert Skidelsky’s biography of the man knows. The idea that someone of that political kidney would be welcomed with open arms at the last Tory conference is the sort of comment one would expect from a political imbecile.
Sorry click treat- the imbecilic comment about Mosley & the Tory Party conference was uttered by our old friend RoS !
Ermm…its the goosestepoers that often come up with unbelievable bollocks like that, you know the “great empire” dross we often hear about.
https://www.conservatives.com
If the first Indyref would have seen a win for the Yes side, we would not be having all this Brexit confusion, companies like Nissan would already be moving to Scotland, given the right conditions, and so would others.
As it stands her gutsy stance today does not really mean much more than the search for a brexit paddle. There is a lot of hot wind in the offing.
Should Britain join the illegal Syria war, ala Bojo, we will see how much guts she has.
The EU is not partial to the war in Syria, bar Hollande and France who are oil/gas/coal-less, hence their propensity to build crap nuclear power stations abroad, so if she would deny any involvement in affronting Russia’s mission there, Mrs. May would definitely opening her ears.
Diverting and going off-topic again, are we?
As Fuji-san said : get a grip.
Bit of a lack of respect for democracy here Craig.
Scotland voted to stay in the union., thereby agreeing to abide by policy of those running the Union. Scotland did not vote to stay in the Union only as long as the Union follows all the policies that ‘Scotland’ wants. I must say, your ‘back-doorism’ here is a bit concerning. It’s a double disrespect of democracy. and I may point out, uncannily like Owen Smith.
I have to agree with you there, lwtc247.
A first I believe?
May well be and so much the better.
Unlike many on here, I’m happy to agree on occasion with those with whom I more often disagree: the word is inyellectual honesty, I believe.
I would probably even agree, on occasion, with someone like “Macky” provided his posts showed even the slightest evidence of intellectual honesty. Not comparing you with him, btw 🙂
Off ye go, laddy.
I Go Every day..The Autumn Shades n Colors Are So Amazing this year Photos to Follow on Squonk Tk
That’s new…Hab Listen you little bbC your Evil is wearing Thin
But Scotland voted also to stay in the EU – by a much greater majority than in voted to stay in the UK. The result of two democratic votes has become incompatible. So it needs a third to sort them out.
Craig.. Can Scotland Just Remove from Uk over war Crimes
It was a union vote. Scotland voted to stay in the EU. As a confirmed member of the Union, that ‘remain status’ was totally dependent on whether the union as a whole wanted it. You know this. There is no legitimacy/mandate for Scotlands will to be carried out irrespective of the union.
Not that it matters, but I don’t like Brexit, I don’t like Scotland staying in the union, but here, I guess I dislike subversion of democracy.even more.
It was a union vote only because David Cameron haughtily decreed it to be so. The Scottish Government called for a four nation vote with Brexit only happening if all four voted for it. They we’re knocked back without so much as a consideration of the matter. Ergo there is no legitimacy to take Scotland out the EU against the democratic choice of the Scottish people.
As was Camerons prerogative as leader of the union – which ‘Scotland’ accepted – to do so.
If the union ‘knocks back’ any Scottish proposal, then that is the unions entitlement, so your “ergo” is baseless and wrong. Under the union Scotland can only exercise whatever power the union grants it.
@Iwtc247W
I think the terms of the EU vote were very badly thought out. I’ll change that, they weren’t thought out at all. The EU ref was a quick fix for the Tories to deal with their own internal wrangling over Europe and with UKIP. It was thrown together.
Let’s ignore the vote result for now. Let’s just look at the make up of the UK in any sort of vote. We have four parts. One of those parts is big enough to over-rule everyone else in any vote. How is that democratic no matter how you look at it? And we’re not talking about mere geographical regions. (I’ve heard Scotland, for example, being compared with Yorkshire! Yorkshire is a county in England. It is not a country!) The three parts outwith Westminster also have their own Parliaments/Assemblies.
It was absurd that the EU vote was not structured to recognise this and to recognise that the view of every part of the UK had to be taken into consideration. Thus, we saw two parts, England and Wales, vote to Leave and two parts, Scotland and NI, vote to Remain. For me it was completely undemocratic to ignore the way in which Scotland and NI voted and it was wrong for the votes elsewhere to decide on our future. The terms of the vote should have made it clear that ALL parts of the UK had to vote to Leave for Brexit to come to pass. Now THAT would have been democratic. It is bad enough that we have to suffer the results of English votes in a GE. It is even worse that in a vote on our future in Europe the wishes of the peoples of all separate parts of the UK were not required to agree in order for it to come to pass.
There were many flaws and deficiencies, there usually are with political choices. Nonetheless it was a vote on what the union should do as a union. Why should Scotland be allowed to force racist England to stay inside? and neither should England force Scotland to do anything (even though in a number of ways it actually does). If ‘Scotland’ (more accurately a few within ‘Scotland’) didn’t like the terms of the vote, it should have advocated abstaining in protest at it. People need to stop crying over spilt milk.
It’s noise Craig, just talk, there won’t be another independence referendum before the soft brexit that’s being planned.
I think you could be wrong on both counts there Fredi- if by ‘soft Brexit’ you mean the Norway option, as it is plain as a pikestaff that that option isn’t under consideration by the new government.
As for the Indyref2 vote, there are strong indications that this may be held in 2018, prior to actual Brexit coming into effect (which would appear likely to be early 2019). If Scotland votes to Leave the UK in 2018, everything would depend on the timetable- if they get to fly the Saltire as an independent country BEFORE Spring 2019 they MAY be able to claim they are the successor state to the UK, and not have to undergo all the usual tests for EU admission. If however the negotiations over ScotLeave aren’t concluded by the date Brexit takes effect- highly likely- Scotland might be forced into declaring UDI so as to begin its own negotiations with Brussels over EU membership, as either a ‘continuing’ member state or a new applicant.
“they MAY be able to claim they are the successor state to the UK, and not have to undergo all the usual tests for EU admission”
Or may not. All the EU member states will have to agree. The main issue of course is the currency. Scotland wouldn’t be able to continue using the pound (neither the EU nor the BoE would accept that) so it would have to be the euro. A bit of a hard sell I suspect.
In due course we will see Mark. I think it’s a grave mistake to take anything on face value presently. There are powerful forces working unseen in the background presently, mass deception is the name of the game being played here.
“But Scotland voted also to stay in the EU – by a much greater majority than in voted to stay in the UK. The result of two democratic votes has become incompatible. So it needs a third to sort them out.”
Yet more people voted to remain part of the UK than voted to remain part of Europe.
2 million for the union only 1.6 million for Europe.
Indeed.
But not one region of Scotland voted to leave the EU, all voted to stay within.
Wouldn’t you agree, thatt since that vote, circumstances have changed, I mean it was only two years ago that David Cameron and Better Together, said the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU, was if they voted to remain in the UK.
Or has that slipped your mind?
Circumstances began changing the second after the union vote. Clearly the vote mandates the union and it’s collective decisions. I think most people would say that vote is mandated until at least the next union based elections. Pro-Indies should respect the votes of the pro-Unionists until at least that time.
Another point:
Funny how that Brexit that is so upsetting in ‘Scotland’ yet there’s little ‘Scottish’ effort to poshing for a change or modification of that particular issue, e.g. by advocacy of Brexit2 vote.
Of course not, because Brexit isn’t really the issue here. It’s simply being manipulated as a means to try and secure independence. Who cares what the majority vote said a couple of years back. It’s quite disgraceful that the crap democracy people paint themselves as believing in is being assaulted in this manner.
Yes, it’s a shame they didn’t feel as passionately about Europe before the referendum as they do after. Just take a look at this blog pre referendum and post to see what I mean.
It wouldn’t matter what the result was the Braveheart cult would be saying it was an excuse for another referendum, it’s all they think about and it’s their only priority. Nicola Sturgeon had a job to do, to clean up a quarter square mile in her own constituency and she couldn’t even manage that because it doesn’t matter to her, to her only one thing matters.
i think we should still go for independence no matter what the tories and terasa may want its our land our resourses they live of so its time we got them back in our Scotland I will always be for Scotland not the union with tories or any other polititical party I am SNP THROUGH AND THROUGH ALWAYS WILL BE SO INDY 2 NOW
This morning Tusk said that we have no choices on Brexit. There is only Hard Brexit. No cakes on the table for us. Just salt and vinegar. He’s a scream!
Over to you Teresa, Boris, Liam and David (Davis).
Britain only has two options — ‘Hard Brexit’ or no Brexit
http://uk.businessinsider.com/donald-tusk-says-hard-brexit-or-no-brexit-2016-10
It’s noise sharp ears, just talk, politicians lie, that’s the truth.
INEOS’s chairman, Jim Ratcliffe, with an HQ in Switzerland, is increasing its holdings of North Sea gas fields. I assume some of those are Scottish.
http://www.ineos.com/businesses/ineos-shale/news/ineos-buys-north-sea-gas-fields
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ineos
They have had meetings with John Swinney but we don’t know what they were about. They didn’t keep any minutes so that a FOI request couldn’t be made to find out.
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/121664/swinney-meets-ineos-chiefs-no-record-minutes-ever-taken/
Ah well, it could’ve been worse, he could’ve been doing deals in the desert with Gaddafi, or backing Saddam, against Iran when it suited, Westminster.
” she insists that not only must the powers held by Brussels come to Scotland (eg fisheries) but that Scotland must control its own immigration policy and run its own foreign relations. ”
Well if these are so important why is the SNP so keen on remaining/joining in the EU? would the EU ever devolve any powers it holds to a member state?
Craig… she is as dishonest as any other power grubbing politician, don’t be sucked in by her nasty nationalism. Scottish nationalism is every bit as racist and unpleasant as English nationalism. To pretend otherwise is naïve in the extreme.
All this woman wants is her name in the history books, she cares not one bit about Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland or in fact the EU. She cannot set out what an indy Scotland looks like, because until Scotland cedes the Union she has no idea if the EU will accept Scotland. Even if it does you will have to use the Euro, there will be a physical barrier between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Scotland exports 60% of her GDP to the UK, that’s going to be very hard when backed by a “strong” currency. Of course the Euro is not really a strong currency, or in fact a stable one, or in fact one that will last all that much longer, then what ? The drop in the pound is simply because the pound has been over valued since 2008, making exporting very hard for UK companies. UK business needed this boost to sales that the weaker pound has created, we need some inflation in order to regain control of fiscal policy, hard times ahead… absolutely, but change should be embraced, not feared.
The UK can exist outside of the EU because our GDP is big enough to support it, and lets not forget that the GPD reductions that are being discussed are not even reductions… they are reductions in growth only. Scotland is too small to exist in its current form all by itself. It could exist but not with its current deficit which means austerity on a scale that will make Greece look like a pool party !
I support an indy Scotland, Id like to see it happen, but this woman will destroy your country in her drive to be forever famous !
Latest BMG poll:
Leave the United Kingdom 39% Remain 47%
http://www.bmgresearch.co.uk/scottish-independence-voting-intention-results-september-2016/?platform=hootsuite
Let’s see: Leave will have to take 80% of the undecideds just to make it 50/50. Work to do. Better start thinking of some damned good reasons for joining the euro.
The usual bollocks from you, and your unionists gutter rags.
Read the truth of the matter.
http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wrong-question/#more-88791
I already read the truth on the BMG website.
You read the Vicar of Bath’s Natzi propaganda if you want.
I see one regional government, called the Federation of Wallonia-Brussels, rejected the CETA trade deal leaving the European Commission scrambling to regain authority. I guess you could call that a hard exit.
What a mess the EU is in. We’re so lucky to be breaking free.
My understanding is that Scotland is very much a Country; it has its own Royal Coat of Arms and past Royal Family to prove it. It also united in 1707 as a full equal partner with England, but retained their own Regulative Laws, and one should keep in mind that within the Constitution Laws of Scotland, the people are Sovereign, not Parliament.
Where is Scotland listed as a member of the EU?
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/countries_en
Nowhere! Just look at the list. You can go on about what is a country and what isn’t all day long but Scotland is not a member of the EU and thus has no negotiation rights within the EU.
Alan
The famous TS Eliot quote about humankind applies with knobs on when it comes to the ScotNats-
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/13681-humankind-cannot-bear-very-much-reality
The famous TS Eliot epic poem title ‘The Waste Land’ will apply to Scotland with knobs on if we stay in the UK.
Then get a move on and exit the UK ASAP!
If Scotland does wish to leave the rest of the United Kingdom, good luck to Scotland, you should be allowed to go unhindered
but there will have to be a HARD border with England.
You will be using the Euro as your currency, you will be subject to the FULL panoply of rules and laws and taxes.
The rest of the United Kingdom will have taken the road for HARD BREXIT, will will be sovereign
we will use our pound, we will make our own rules and laws, we will bow before no other economic bloc.
We will not have to have our warships made in Scotland.
We will not have to buy your coal.
We will not have to buy your gas.
We will not have to buy your oil.
We will not have to buy your renewable electricity.
In fact we do not have to buy anything at all from you.
But if the SNP think it is a good idea and they are the government of Scotland off you go, we will not hold you back.
The usual guff, if you took your blinkered eyes out of the Express (a satirical magazine if ever there was one) and looked up every now and then, then you’d have read that Ireland have been promised, that there will be NO hard border with NI.
So it would be sheer hypocrisy from Frau May, and her jack boot boot johnnies, to propose a hard border with Scotland, then again, I wouldn’t put anything past this xenophobic government.
RoS it is not from The Daily Express, it from from me.
|You will be forced into servitude, like Greece
but if that is your wishes, please got for it now.
I think the idea is that when the UK leaves the EU a newly independent Scotland will nip in and ‘continue’ its EU membership. Problem there is that a prior referendum to leave the UK would automatically eject Scotland from the EU so there would be no seamless continuity.
I like reading comments to see different points of view but t you really are just annoying. You made your point it’s the Uk That’s the member state. In the event of Scotland voting for independence the process would involve repealing the treaty of Union hence ending the United Kingdom. England Wales and Northern Ireland could call themselves what they want but it is not the UK. Since the formation of the EU no member state has broken up so there is no precedent. No country in the union has any claim to the EU membership. The EU will be left with countries that used to be one with some choosing to remain members, Scotland , Northern Ireland and some voting to leave England and Wales. Do you really think the EU will expel its citizens in Scotland and Northern Ireland for no reason ? Do believe that the EU will cut its self off from its biggest energy producer and its biggest source of seafood ? An agreement will be reached that Scotland remains in the EU as an independent nation as will Northern Ireland and this will be the back door that the London finance houses use to keep England and Wales economy afloat. London and by association the rest of England and wales cannot afford to not have access to EU markets.
An agreement will be reached that Scotland remains in the EU as an independent nation as will Northern Ireland
NI as an ‘independent nation’ ? Who the hell are you kidding ! Even the most hardline Unionists now recognise that to be a complete non starter.
In the context of a full blown UK breakup, basket case NI has effectively 2 options-
1. Unification with the South, which near all Catholics in NI ‘aspire’ to , but which, when push comes to shove ie the end of Westminster subsidies, and the adoption of the Republic’s (very much NOT ‘free at the point of use’) health service, even they have strong practical reservations about, or
2.Entering into some sort of confederation with an independent Scotland- a sort of modern day Dal Riada. AFAIK that may have some appeal to the ScotNat lunatic fringe, and to all those NI Rangers supporters who regularly cross the North Channel to watch the games at Ibrox- but it looks very much like a poisoned chalice to everyone else !
Its very rare that I agree with Habbabkuk but it happened again today at 10:55.
Most people are far too close to their own tribal, political and economic beliefs, which they were largely indoctrinated with almost since birth in much the same way as happens with religion. Very few significantly change their minds, and are in effect too close to the ground to see the bigger picture. Its a waste of time arguing with such people, because their minds are closed. They already know they have the “Correct” view. The reality is that they have now become incapable of learning.
If you want to learn something about how modern economics really works (or should work) I suggest you read Professor Bill Mitchell. He has an excellent blog that you can search. It can go into tremendous detail, but he actually makes sense. Most mainstream economists don’t – which is part of the reason why the world is in such a mess – Bill Mitchell – billy blog Modern Monetary Theory … macroeconomic reality bilbo.economicoutlook.net
As far as geopolitics is concerned, probably the best analyses I have ever seen comes from Thiery Meyysan. On numerous occasions he has written in detail, long before anyone else, events that subsequently turn out to be almost exactly as he predicted.
He wrote this on 28th June 2016 about BREXIT
http://www.voltairenet.org/article192607.html
Extracts..
“27 years after the fall of the Berlin Wall The Brexit reshuffles world geopolitics
While the world Press is searching for ways to re-start the reconstruction of Europe, still without Russia and now without the United Kingdom, Thierry Meyssan considers that nothing can now prevent the collapse of the system. However, he points out, what is at stake is not the European Union itself, but the institutions which enable the domination of the world by the United States, and the integrity of the United States themselves.
The discrepancy between reality and the discourse of the political media illustrates the disease from which the Western elite is really suffering – their incompetence.
While the veil is being ripped apart before our eyes, our elites do not understand the situation any better than the Communist Party of Soviet Russia could see the consequences of the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989 – the dissolution of the USSR in December 1991, then the Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (Comecon) and the Warsaw Pact six months later, followed by the attempts to dismantle Russia itself, in which it almost lost Chechnya.
In identical fashion, we will soon be witnessing the dissolution of the European Union, then NATO, and unless they pay close attention, the dismantling of the United States.
What interests are behind the Brexit?
Contrary to the boastful claims of Nigel Farage, UKIP was not the originator of the referendum it has just won. The decision was imposed on David Cameron by the members of the Conservative Party.
For them, London’s policy must be a pragmatic adaptation to the evolution of the world. This «nation of shop-keepers», as Napoleon qualified it, observes that the United States are no longer either the world’s prime economy or its major military power. There is therefore no further reason to hang on as their privileged partner…..”
“the United States are no longer either the world’s prime economy or its major military power”
Wrong on both counts.
Theresa May’s has chosen the offensive term “War Cabinet” as the name of her government’s task force to negotiate Brexit with our European friends. Also the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland Secretaries will only attend when May decides they are required. Required to be nodding donkeys that’ll be. A role of course to which David Mundell is eminently qualified.
A War Cabinet with no regular attendance by the representatives of the three smaller home nations. What proof of the xenophobic and anglocentric nature of the government of the UK.
A War Cabinet with no regular attendance by the representatives of the three smaller home nations.
ahh diddums- youve just proved my point about the aptness of the TS Eliot quote I adjusted above. Welcome to the real world.
BTW I’m a Londoner click track; London has a population of nearly 9 million- more than equal to that of the 3 ‘smaller home nations’ put together,and on whose behalf you appear to be bleating.
Sadiq Khan doesn’t have a seat at the ‘War Cabinet’ either- perhaps I should join forces with you and campaign for his admittance, along with that of Sturgeon, the Foster & McGuinness double act, and whoever the hell is Welsh First Minister at the moment- or perhaps not!
I agree, Sturgeon realises that Frau May and the goosesteppers, will not, be able to live up to Scotland’s expectations, over Brexit, and that indyref 2 is a inevitability.
Indeed the goosesteppers are fighting among themselves, as with Hammond and Fox, who can’t stand the sight of each other. Yet we’re expected to believe that Frau Ma, will involve,mand inform Scotland of how Brexit progressing, nevermind devolve important powers.
Frau May is a devious, character, and anyone in attendance at the Tory conference in Birmingham last week, would have thougth they were attending a rally by Il Duce, such was the xenophobic stench coming from hall.
Frau May’s hard Brexit, will be fraught with impasses and failures, that will last years and leave, the dis-United Kingdom far worse off, than if we’d remained in the EU. Donald Tusk has said it will be a hard Brexit or no Brexit.
Meanwhile Mark Carney, the Govenor of the Bank of England, has said he expects food prices to rise, and we haven’t even begun to walk down the Brexit route. Ungreat Britain’s future for those not well to do, appears to be, poverty high unemployment and even lower wages, Frau May’s dream for the dis-United Kingdom, is Scotland’s nightmare.
Exit… Big mistake.
And the winner is …..
“There are no permanent spots for the Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland secretaries, who are listed as attending on an “as required” basis. There are also no positions for the attorney general’s office or justice ministry.”
So it’s a case of the rUK guessing what Theresa May, and her very nasty party are up to then, when it comes to Brexit negotiations.
“Ministers who campaigned for Brexit feel that their views are clearly represented, so they cannot then disown the outcome of the complex negotiations over Britain’s future relationship with the other 27 EU member states.”
Ah now I get it, re the above, when it all goes belly up (and believe me it will) and the dis-United Kingdom is out on its ear, without getting what it wants, Theresa May will blame the fiasco, on the the three muppeteers, Johnson, Fox and Hammond, and whoever else is within shooting distance.
“But Tim Farron, the Liberal Democrat leader, said it was “a case of May letting the foxes into the hen-house”.
He said: “These people were appointed to Theresa May’s cabinet so people should not be surprised they have been appointed to key committees. The lineup is full of hard Brexiteers; this is a further sign that the government wants to pull us out in the most aggressive way possible, abandoning the single market.”
Even the leader of the insignificant party Tim Farron, by his above statement, claims a hard Brexit is on the cards. The Goosesteppers, must think the EU is going to roll over, and give them anything they want. In my opinion its going to be at least two years of misery for Ungreat Britain, and the news will break, bit by bit, that they haven’t gotten what they wanted. Then it will be one almighty scramble, for the life jackets and parachutes, but there won’t be enough for everyone.
Hopefully by then Scotland will have unshackled the ball and chain, better known, as, Westminster.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/14/theresa-may-brexit-committee-members-pro-leave-boris-johnson
There is no business in the House of Commons today, nor in Westminster Hall or in the committees. Why? The MPs only returned on Monday after nearly a month off for conferences. I assume the fact that the SNP MPs are at their conference is the reason. Wonderful. We really get good value from our parliamentary representatives, NOT.
Today http://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/All/2016/10/14/Daily
House of Commons recess dates 2016-17 session
The State Opening for the 2016-17 session took place on Wednesday 18 May 2016.
Whitsun 26 May 2016 – 6 June 2016
Recess 15 June 2016 – 27 June 2016
Summer 21 July 2016 – 5 September 2016
Conference 15 September 2016 -10 October 2016
November 8 November 2016 – 14 November 2016
Christmas 20 December 2016 – 9 January 2017
February 9 February 2017 – 20 February 2017
More paid holidays than the average worker.
The exact pattern of recesses can change and is normally slightly different for the two Houses.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/721332/Dutch-MP-Geert-Wilders-hate-speech-charges-fewer-Moroccans
Right-wing Geert Wilders told a rally he was determined to make sure fewer Moroccans settled in the Netherlands.
For this he will be prosecuted.
The hated European Elite – no longer allow free speech.
This is the way forward for Scotland?
Geert Wilders and Marine le Pen, are some of the reasons why the EU must come down heavily on the dis-United Kingdom over Brexit. Far right fascist parties, cannot be allowed to propose a EU exit, and get a good deal in the process.
The goosesteppers are confirmed xenophobes, bordering on fascists, the EU must make a example of the dis-United Kingdom, and show the other right wing xenophobic parties throughout the EU that, if they want to leave the union, it will be at a very heavy cost.
The EU must set an example, and the dis-United Kingdom will be that example, otherwise the EU could lose face, and slowly disintegrate.
You are unbelievable RoS
Quote “otherwise the EU could lose face, and slowly disintegrate.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN7r0Rr1Qyc
How could it possibly loose any more face after the Frau Merkel Traady.
One and a third out of Africa/Asia migrants undemocratically let into Germany.
Slowly disintegrate, it probably will last less than twenty years.
LA LA LAND
Frau Merkel Tragedy of undemocratically,
letting One and a third MILLION African / Asian migrants into Germany.
Only a handful are proper refugees, you loon.
Tomorrow is promised to no one.
The tomorrow of Ungreat Britain is likely to be one of mass unemployment, high prices, extreme poverty, and widespread surveillance, did I just describe North Korea? I think I did.
You’d better get out Norton before it’s too late.
Talking of tomorrow, with today unsolved, is hypothetical to say the least.
All we hear is diddly squit and diddly dum, with all the substance missing, so we speculate.
John Swinney says he’s going to stick to pound Sterling, preferably, which somehow makes the Indyref 2, due to hard Brexit, a nonsense, If Scotland wants to stay in Europe, it is better served to adopt the Euro, as the fall of the pound does not seem to bother anyone.
My mates on the continent are stocking up on cheap motorcycle spares, whilst our goods are already priced according to the great Brexit rip off opportunity. Oil production, despite of talks of cutting it down, has not decreased, but oil prices, thanks to our hopeless treasury are being pulled up.
Just listen in the next few month how Brexit is being used to justify higher prices, when in reality it is the uncertainty and uselessness of this split Government.
Wait for it,because al;l that was promised might actually happen, but diddley squid and diddley dum don’t really want to hear about it, so the media will try its best to talk about cum prancing, celebrity pointless/spot squeezing and all sorts.
https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/gbp-live-today/5590-gbp-to-eur-and-usd-decline-infancy
I am pretty sure that Scotland has already voted for Independence – but the Result was Rigged. Obviously impossible to prove and politically incorrect to claim it was (sour grapes etc). I thought I read on here that someone was making a film about it, and there was even a short contribution by Craig Murray? Maybe I imagined it, as I can’t find it…All I found was this, which does seem to be in production – but is Fiction?
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/entertainment/film/14105955.Indyref__the_movie__Crowfunding_bid_to_be_launched_to_make_movie_around_September_18_events/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4277690/combined?mode=desktop
Tony
I guess if this was a Welsh Independence Blog – this post might appear…
I knew he wasn’t guilty at the time of the trial – because I saw a lot more of the Evidence (I did a few Goggle searches) than either the Judge or Jury did – err – and it was “Politically Correct” to Find him Guilty irrespective of the evidence
So he has lost the best of years of his life – before The Trial even Started – waiting for it and then Two and Half Years in Jail…
Completely Delighted He has been found innocent today on his Second Appeal.
But how does he get those years back?
Tony
Glad to hear positive comments
I AM 100% behind any proposals and activities to promote indy 2
Seeing as the referendum would not be legal without a change of constitutional law I suggest everybody happy with the union just ignores it so it can’t be used by the Nationalists for propaganda purposes. The Unionist campaign shouldn’t be vote No, it should be don’t vote and make the result meaningless.