We are continually presented with experts by the mainstream media who will validate whatever miraculous property of “novichok” is needed to fit in with the government’s latest wild anti-Russian story. Tonight Newsnight wheeled out a chemical weapons expert to tell us that “novichok” is “extremely persistent” and therefore that used to attack the Skripals could still be lurking potent on a bush in a park.
Yet only three months ago we had this example of scores from the MSM giving the same message which was the government line at that time:
“Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: ‘These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'”
In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed. But now the properties of the agent have to fit a new narrative, so they transmute again.
It keeps happening. Do you remember when Novichok was the most deadly of substances, many times more powerful than VX or Sarin, and causing death in seconds? But then, when that needed to be altered to fit the government’s Skripal story, they found scientists to explain that actually no, it was pretty slow acting, absorbed gradually through the skin, and not all that deadly.
Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.
According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.
If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.
I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.
Both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess still have active facebook pages and one of Charlie’s handful of “Likes” is a mortgage broker, which is consistent with his brand new house. They don’t give mortgages to unemployed heroin addicts, and not many of those live in smart new “executive housing” estates. Both Charlie and Dawn appear from their facebook pages to be very well socialised, with Dawn having many friends in the teaching profession. Even if she has been homeless for a period as reported, she is plainly very much part of the community.
Naturally, there is no mention in all the reports today of MI6’s Pablo Miller, who remains the subject of a D notice. I wonder if he knows Rowley and Sturgess, living in the same community? It should be recalled that Salisbury may be a city, but its population is only 45,000.
The most important thing is of course that Charlie and Dawn recover. But tonight, even at this early stage, as with the entire Skripal saga, the message the security services are seeking to give out does not add up. Mark Urban’s piece for Newsnight tonight was simply disgusting; it did not even pretend to be more than a propaganda piece on behalf of the security services, who had told Urban (as he said) that Yulia Skripal’s phone “could have been” tapped by the Russians and they “might even” have listened to her conversations through the microphone in her telephone. That was the “new evidence” that the Russians were behind everything.
As a former British Ambassador I can tell you with certainty that indeed the Russians might have tapped Yulia, but GCHQ most definitely would have. It is, after all, their job, and billions of our taxes go into it. If tapping of phones is seriously presented as evidence of intent to murder, the British government must be very murderous indeed.
Mark Urban has a lot to say about Skripals today ….. He had met Sergei a few times last year !??! … he tells us Sergei was just a cuddly wuddly nice old chap ……. and he’s got a new book coming out !! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44717835
How about a line of T-Shirts Craig? “I was novichoked but I’m ok now” etc..
OK maybe not, but you never know 😉
Better still, to help the Guardian raise some cash:
“If in doubt: The Russians done it”.
How long before the unfortunate couple are implicated as the perpretators of the first attack?
Can’t some more contributors here form and express an opinion on whether the man and woman filmed in the shopping centre the day the Skripals got ill may have been Chris Rowley and Dawn Sturgess? (Personally I think no to CR and yes to DS.)
I can.
The cctv was a red herring to distract people from the ‘security’ service links. These people could easily have been found if required. It was suspicious that they both look at the camera at the same time as they pass. There would be many more cameras that would have picked them up on their jaunty little walk which would have been out in daylight and give a clearer picture.
A ‘security’ services plant IMO
A reply to a recent FoI request said that the intelligence services were allowed to commit crimes in the UK, without specifying which crimes they were not allowed to commit. I’m guessing that they aren’t allowed to murder anyone, which is why they used BZ in Salisbury, which isn’t usually fatal, and then lied about it being an attack with a Russia-developed deadly novichok nerve agent, in an attempt to demonise Russia again.
And Brits have seen during the World Cup that Russians aren’t the ogres that the UK government has been painting them as, so it was obviously time to dust off the BZ applicator again and smear Russia some more.
Yes.
Also has the benefit of leaving ‘spooks’ from London in charge with no local plod required, as would be the case if there were dead bodies.
Given Corbyn would most likely attend the World Cup Final (there is no Russia ban on opposition leaders or shadow ministers) Tory HQ must be absolutely dreading the scenario of seeing him in a potential World Cup winning photo-opp and full-on Russia love-in – basking in his image as man of the people and best mates with the world cup winners while the grotesque May just looks increasingly more distant – symbol of a now distant era of hapless losers.
I agree, especially since a large proportion of the British public and most Europeans I know aren’t buying the Skripal baloney and saw straight through the UK’s idiotic campaign to discredit Russia in Syria while happily providing arms to Saudi Arabia for its continuing slaughter in Yemen (In fact, many Europeans are critical of their own governments’ duplicity of selling weapons to SA while making the right noises about “humanitarian concerns” in Syria).
Only media professionals are able to look at that situation, see no trace of hypocrisy and loudly represent Theresa May as a humanitarian.
Unfortunately neither Chris Rowley nor Dawn Sturgess is likely to be able to get a message out from the hospital the way Yulia Skripal managed to.
Here’s hoping they both recover and live to tell the tale.
Unfortunately I doubt it. They are Operation Mincemeat 2018.
Luckily, the OPCW has new powers to attribute blame, thanks to the UK government pushing for a change to its rules. That’s a coincidence, isn’t it? The UK demands and gets a change to the OPCW’s rules, and immediately there’s an alleged chemical weapons attack in the UK for which the OPCW will be able to pin the blame on some country (Russia).
Is John “Mr Pastry” Bolton still threatening the family of the OPCW head, or is he happy that the OPCW now do what America tells them to do? The whole system is rigged. The UK government will demand that the OPCW investigate and we’ll be told that the independent OPCW blames Russia. If Bolton is no longer threatening their leadership, they aren’t independent!
I just hope the OPCW have learned to tell the difference between grams and milligrams now – or was it “half a cupful” and a few milligrams…
Frank Gardner BBC simultaneously tweets that Novichok is persistent, and at the same time in another tweet that it couldn’t last 4 months. So he’s covered all bases… it’s a new attack or it’s the same Skripal stuff.
This is why Russians love sploshing Novichok around the place.
It’s very hard to make, but the precursors can simply be mixed to make instant deadly nerve agent.
It is hard to identify, but can be identified.
It is very deadly, but doesn’t kill.
It’s perfect for hit jobs as it doesn’t persist, but if you want it can persist for months.
It works more or less instantly, unless through the skin.
Whatever the dose it has the same effects and takes about the same time.
It makes all other poisons redundant.
– and if you spill any, you can wipe it up with Baby Wipes.
And if you spill any it persist’s, until it rains. But according to the BBC it has not rained in the Salisbury area for over 6 month, hence the insistence of chief BBC chemical specialist Gordon Correa that it is from the first incident.
A professor yesterday, a scientists also said that it persists. Maybe they meant ‘in this kind of weather’, i.e.hot and bothered.
Now lets hear the Wrecksit fudge howling from the right wing Atlanticist’s and then wait for the EU nations to either accept or reject Terrrorezza’s vintage olde fudge, matured for two full years without sunshine or any beady eye’s casting scruple …..
I agree with Mark, she is trying desperately to cause trouble and more sanctions for Russia during the next NATO meeting on Tuesday, just before Trump saunters of to Moscow.
Frank Gardner’s English reports from the Arabophone world used to have an ‘on the other hand’ twist, now his presentations are as the Foreign Office would have issued them.
Obviously been re-educated.
John Simpson has rather more of the against the grain, ‘old style’ BBC correspondent about him, but rarely contributes.
All the rest in the correspondent stable just churn out what the bosses wish to hear.
There is no desire for consistency or experience driven analysis simply utilitarian, pedestrian reportage’.
I understand that an India correspondent called Mark Tully got ‘silenced’ by the BBC because he was too well informed. He’d ‘gone rather native’ was the view so he had to go.
Knowledge is power, too much knowledge isn’t.
This ‘incident’ once again demonstrates in ultra-sharp clarity what the politically conventional Scottish National party and Scotland’s independence movement, if such exists, is faced with. This system, laid down by acquisitive Norman robber barons, is not motivated by concerns for law or authentic rights or fairness or legitimacy or ‘democracy’, however interpreted, but with raw power and the continuance of the shape-shifting establishment ‘self’ as status quo.
Playing dirty, with the compliance of mass media, so called experts and spokesmen with remarkably fertile imaginations, is what it does best. The imperialist legacy has come home and finds productive employment and as in imperial days the rewards are are incentivising. This legacy is deployed like some department of state influencing and nuancing the course of British government and public discourse. It has the country where it wants it, in the grip of neurotic fantasies and fears and lies.
In a state which seems to lack any effective opposition it manipulates and predates at will.
What then is to be done when ‘democracy’ rots from the head?
The only thing facing the idiot SNP is the Scottish voters’ complete delusion with the lying scumbags.
Pleased to have helped there.
And how was Cowdenbeath?
I think btw you may have meant ‘disillusion’, something not suggested by various opinion polls. Delusion would indicate a certain ‘captivation’ which is in line with current polls
Pleased to have been of assistance.
The cost of being identified, named and known can be enormous. These transactions where used to obtain money from my account yesterday and appeared as pending:
GPAY*leonmatid £196.79 (The subject of a dispute as I have NEVER used GooglePay)
AVUS CAPITAL UK £252.03 (Contacted and cancelled 3D authentication used to verify the transaction)
Interestingly the only people/company to have my Visa account details are PAYPAL. Please be warned that the easiest way to upset/ruin wreck or subvert one’s life is through your bank or financial institution.
Please be vigilant.
@ Mark Golding July 5, 2018 at 12:58
Modern ‘touchless’ cards can be cloned via cheaply accessible gadgets, and the information used to purchase stuff online.
You can mitigate this with a cheap light ‘cover’ for the card, which prevents it’s info being stolen.
I found one on the pavement, guessed what it probably was, and tried it with my Freedom Pass. Sure enough, if I tried to use the card on the London Underground with the ‘cover’ on, it didn’t work.
I now keep my Bank card in it.
Meanwhile, the Don is set to meet Vlad the Prince of Destruction and carve up the world between them.
It’s looking ominous for Brexit Britain if we can’t ramp up production of Novichok, tariffs or no tariffs.
With Mattis putting the squeeze on Gav the Prat for another £20 billion defence expenditure if we don’t want to be relegated from Tier One it’s clear the troops milling around in Wiltshire will soon need to be redeployed to the Eastern Approaches.
Quasi_verbatim, the eastern approaches? Somewhere up the A303 like Andover perhaps?
Once the government begin a lie it must be maintained, supported, reinforced and bolstered no matter how ludicrous the lie becomes. Very often a distraction will have to created when no one actually believes the lie any more and then the Ministers’ friend (time) will take over.
It happened in the Dr David Kelly pantomime one example below shows the abject dishonesty Ministers will resort to and their complete contempt of Parliament, the Rule of Law and Truth.
It is happening in the Skripal case, the Amesbury distraction is required because the police now look very silly having squandered the public’s trust supporting the government’s fairy tale.
Anyway back to the Kelly lie (one of the lies) Kelly was found propped against a tree when the police arrived they said it was lay on its back a distance from a tree. Several years later the first police officer on the scene admitted in a newspaper interview that he had misled the Hutton inquiry and the body was actually propped against a tree and the body moved whilst he was present; no action was taken against that police officer because 1) time had diluted the interest and 2) the public had long since known the truth and come to terms with the fact that police lie.
(NB the body was moved because there was a fear that livor mortis would reveal that Kelly had died on his back or he was on his back shortly after death – ironically there was no need to move the body as the livor mortis was still mobile at the time of the PM exam, which may have been a natural phenomenon or a foreign chemical had interacted with the blood. The other reason the lie was needed was that the “crime scene” had been made insecure if the body had been moved then where from? A few inches from the tree or a few miles from a “safe house”?)
Sorry its a bit long but the depth of skulduggery is truly alarming and cannot be over emphasised.
When first you practice to deceive …………..
Attorney General Dominic Grieve Statement to Parliament 9th June 2011
“Once such a doubt had been created, those who believed that Dr Kelly was murdered looked for contradictions in the evidence given to Lord Hutton, for matters that were apparently not followed up by the police and for any other issues that might be considered suspicious. Much has been made, for example, of the position in which Dr Kelly’s body was found. Although all the witnesses bar two gave evidence to the inquiry that Dr Kelly was found lying on his back with, as the photographs show, his head very close to the trunk of a tree, the two witnesses who found the body stated that it was propped against a tree. Lord Hutton, who had considerable experience as a trial judge, recognised that honest witnesses, in genuinely seeking to explain what they saw, can and sometimes will none the less recall the same scene differently. Any Member who has any experience of the trial process will say the same. That is underlined by the fact that one of those two witnesses, in the statement that he made to the police closer to the time of the event, actually described the body as being on its back and not propped. That is not a criticism of that witness, but from that minor contradiction came the view that the body must have been moved.
If the body had been moved, then why, by whom and for what purpose? The issue has proven a fertile ground for imaginative speculation to take over. In fact, all the evidence provided by the very careful forensic examination of the scene at the time and the detailed review that, exceptionally, I have undertaken, supports the view that Dr Kelly died where he was found and from the causes determined. There is no evidence that I have seen that would suggest any other explanation, or that suggests any cover up or conspiracy whatever.”
Grieve for justice!
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm110609/debtext/110609-0002.htm#11060943000003
Can I suggest Bob your ‘detailed review’ is perhaps somewhat questionable, simple and vague. But OK your hypothesis is somewhat restricted by the fact Lord Hutton has concealed vital medical evidence for our lifetimes…
Could he be exhumed for novichok post mortum?
@ Bob July 5, 2018 at 13:07
It wasn’t ‘livor mortis’ that necessitated the change from sitting propped up a tree, with lying on his back, but the dried vomit marks, which went from the mouth to the ears, only possible if Kelly had been lying down when vomiting.
This is why Russians love sploshing Novichok all over the place. Especially now during the World Cup final games.
Novichok is very hard to make, but the precursors can simply be mixed to make instant deadly nerve agent.
[FACT: The Russians who invented it, say that they never succeded to make a binary version of it when the Novichok programme was run during Soviet times.]
Novichok is hard to identify, but can be identified as a type developed by Russians.
[We must assume, that OPCW doesn’t cross-examine the variant of Novichok stored in Porton Down to the variant found in the victims’ blood.]
Novichok is extremely deadly, one of the deadliest nerve poisons, and it kills within 15-20 minutes after contact.
[But not in England, where it doesn’t kill at all]
It’s perfect for hit jobs as it doesn’t persist.
[But if you are a Russian hitman on assignment in England, it can persist for several weeks (as with the Skripals) or even for 4 months (as now).]
It works more or less instantly, unless through the skin and in England.
[It is intended to work through the skin]
Whatever the dose it has the same effects and takes about the same time.
[In England the effects and the timing are just different from what the science says it should be.]
In short: the perfect [politizised] poison.
“Considering the fact that both Rink and Mirzayanov have stated that the substance would have started decomposition by the time samples were acquired, it seems as though Porton Down may have provided OPCW with Novichok samples developed in a laboratory rather than a substance genuinely acquired 18 days after the components had been combined.”
https://disobedientmedia.com/2018/06/on-the-skripal-poisoning-case-and-the-questions-it-leaves-unanswered/
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strenght
It is amazing how easy it becomes to manipulate the masses.
So the same old question remains: why have there been no description of suspects, manhunt lockdown, etc.. after the Skripal incident? Why is it that this was also not raised in this case? Of course one of the postulates is that it is a leftover from the first attack but how can anyone be sure?
Charlie and Dawn were in a park in Salisbury with another chap and it’s most likely (they say) that Charlie came into contact with this syringe (or whatever) in the park. Surely the other chap can help therefore. The three of them were together all evening, weren’t they? Has anyone asked him whether Charlie picked anything up, bought a hot dog and found something in the wrapper etc.? That ought to be ruled out right from the start, I guess.
So according to the statement by the Home Secretary in the House of Commons just now:-
1. There was no botched clear-ups in Salisbury.
2. The couple were contaminated at a location previously unknown.
3. This is the same batch of ‘Novichok’ that was used in the Skripal case.
4. Only the Russians could have done this.
5. The Russian state must come forward and explain there dastardly actions.
6. OPCW has been informed, (how convenient the UK cajoled & bribed a change of the rules to allow blame assignment last week.)
Therefore, presumably somehow four months of weather has not diluted/dispersed this agent, we were previously told did not kill the Skripal’s, as it was diluted overnight by rain. Yet all the so called ‘experts’ being rolled out, (as pointed out in the OP and comments), are now saying is extremely persistent, but how persistent and deadly it is, is unknown as we don’t have any empirical evidence here in the UK apparently.
BUT anyone who was in the now guarded and cordoned off areas should wash there cloths and wipe down any items they had with them.
Yet more contradictions
Side-note: According to ‘Sky News’, we are all Trolls, Bots or shrills for questioning the contradictory approved narrative…..
This is the Indy take on it. They reckon it was Novichok “left over” from the Skripal poisonings, and that the new victims came in contact with “paraphernalia” which was dumped.
I have absolutely no doubt that Porton Down will be able to stump up some “hard, fresh evidence” to support this outlandish claim, but I very much doubt if any of the MSM will question the undeniable facts, that anything left over from four months ago would have degraded completely.
Maybe the “paraphernalia” is a discarded Hazmat suit which the scoundrel was wearing when he/she/it committed the original crime. There must be someone who witnessed a person wandering around a residential area in a Hazmat suit.
Forgot to post the Indy link.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/amesbury-wiltshire-incident-novichok-poisoning-russia-sajid-javid-barbaric-reckless-a8432731.html
Here’s a weird theory but probably better than the rubbish put out by the government. People in Porton Down have been making designer drugs in their spare time. A bad batch, possibly from the current two victims, affected the Skripals. This is what the police and the hospital first thought. When the sample got to PD they realised what had happened and covered it up by saying it was Novichok. When the OPCW wanted samples they added some Novichok and BZ. Now some more of the bad batch has turned up and once again PD say it’s Novichok. They are the experts so who can second guess them?
I think there would be more people affected if this was the case.
T!T, so exclusive only a junkie couple suffer? Ha Ha Halfwit.
All you had to do is supply the pair with pure heroin – the habitual dose would send them into orbit.
The Mail reports Sturgess as being on the brink of death. If she dies will HMG then demand that England pull out of the match against Sweden as a mark of respect?
I doubt it. And ruin the advertising take? But a lot could happen between now and 3pm on Saturday. Perhaps they’ll send the English players out onto the field wearing black armbands or whatever doesn’t break any contracts?
Surely FIFA can’t fine pep Guardiola for wearing political symbols on his shirt, and then allow some halfwitted unproven campaign to pin black armbands on our team.
And what if the team is re called and does not want to come home? stating that politics and sport are divided, not to be confused with bread and butter
There is a chance of that but you con-theorists will see that as an easy way out of a definate loss for England and possible next game against Russia.
Cherchez le chat! I knew this would happen: It is the Skripal cat that escaped! (The Skripals themselves were just red herrings). This cat has been genetically modified by the Russians to produce Novichok and is also programmed for extreme promiscuity. Main thing: All its descendents will inherit the poison-producing glands (and the other thing), and after a modest initial effect – we have just seen the beginning – in 10-15 years England will be completely de-populated. The plan is be to bring back the forests and make the island suiteable for the Russian upper class for hunting adventures and drinking parties, I found out (by hacking into Putins computer).
Top comments from the Daily Mail’s story comment section as of writing:
“I’m a bit confused, we were told the Skripols didn’t die because the poison was watered down after being put on the door before it rained. It would seem that there has been a lot of time and rain in Salisbury since the incident. Are we saying that remnants of the poison wouldn’t have been washed away by now?? If that is the case how did the Skripols survive?” (^2356 v146)
“Is this the same novichok that the uk and 17 other countries have? What an ongoing farce…” (^2247 v237)
“World Cup going well and everyone loving Russia. Can’t have that eh…” (^2111 v236)
“cant fool the masses no more theresa” (^1580 v138)
“I don’t believe that Russia is responsible for this. Somebody has had access to this stuff and has their own agenda. Whom, is the question? And why?” (^1127 v114)
Most down-voted – “Putin is a complete clown” – all “You must be working overtime in Moscow comrade”-type comments heavily down-voted.
If only the Guardian commentariat had as much sense 😉
Must be Russian bots voting !
@ Nick July 5, 2018 at 14:03
‘..If only the Guardian commentariat had as much sense’.
I’m sure they do, but the inconvenient comments mostly get taken down.
Sajid Javid obviously doesn’t know the meaning of the word “target”. “It is completely unacceptable for our people to be either deliberate or accidental targets”, he says.
Is he a madman or something? He can’t seem to talk in properly semantically connected sentences.
“As we did before, we will be consulting with our international partners and allies following these latest developments. The eyes of the world are currently on Russia, not least because of the World Cup.” (So what? “It is now time that the Russian state comes forward and explains exactly what has gone on. Let me be clear: we do not have a quarrel with the Russian people.” (Did somebody say you did?) “Rather, it is the actions of the Russian government.” (What is?) “We will stand up to the actions that threaten our security and the security of our partners. It is unacceptable for our people to be either deliberate or accidental targets, or for our streets, our parks, our towns to be dumping grounds for poison.”
“Javid said that he was aware the public in Wiltshire was ‘feeling very anxious’ about the new poisoning, but there was no reason to worry.” (Listen, plebs! You’ll get your dose of hate week on your TV screen or your smartphone. But when you’re producing surplus value or you’re buying stuff, stay calm!)
What a silly sod.
I think he was referring to the Nerve Agent rather than the perpetrator of this act. This couple were definately accidentally targeted by the Novichok, rather than being the target of the perpetrator(s).
“accidentally targeted” You don’t see the discrepancy in this phrase? OK then
Irt’s a covert SOP which fits all cases to get the country behind May’s campaign to finally fix Vlad with revived NATO, and it’s moving up the land towards Wimbleton and London and all their spectators.
How can you avoid it if you are next somehow or your friends are?
Glad I moved out of that thatched cottage of Richard Butler’s years ago just up the road from Amesbury at Clench, or I would again be sweating over what the Anglo=American spooks are up to.
Imagine that the clientle at the wonderful Royal Oak pub at Wootton Rivers will be down these days.
“I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000”
These are two former or current drug users, Dawn is homeless and living in a hostel in Amesbury. I’m nt sure if Craig is aware of the demographic of drug use but perhaps he should do some research. To the non-conspiracy theorists amongst us this is a clear case of secondary contamination rather than a deliberate act.
The idiotic conspiracy theorists on this blog will tell us that this is another act by the UK state to demonstrate that the first attack wasn’t them, as if it was a false flag operation the perpetrators (UK Govt) would safeguard the general public.
The facts are clear, whomever attacked the Skripals did not dispose of this deadly substance properly and indeed have probably provided some new evidence.
“The facts are clear, whomever attacked the Skripals did not dispose of this deadly substance properly and indeed have probably provided some new evidence.”
Sshhhhhhh – that is supposed to be a surprise. The demure, white coated female CSI scientist looks up from her microscope: “Tell the the Superintendent, I actually think we can get a DNA profile from this.”
The wonderful thing about when you control the new evidence, you control precisely what it says.
Bless
Idiotic Conspiracy Theorist
Do you really believe it, Goran? Not properly disposed deadly substance? Waiting in a secret place since March? Never found by cleaning team but easily discovered by drug addict?
For such a long period, if only this substance was really waiting in some place, you’d find it in about a week, due to strong smell of dead birds, cats, dogs, insects, whoever could come near it by chance
Tatyana, are you saying that this nerve agent is toxic to animals and birds? Really? Organophosphates are extremely complex chemicals and can be engineered to attack one species more effectively than another, that is why they are used as insecticides to kill pests but leave livestock unharmed.
So Tatyana what is your theory? There are many doubters out there but none willing to come up with an alternative explaination, other than that of a highly complicated conspiracy to justify the expulsion of a few Russian “diplomats”.
“Really? Organophosphates are extremely complex chemicals and can be engineered to attack one species more effectively than another,”
Oh puhleease, it is a fairly fundamental biochemical pathway that is being interfered with. Insects are a bit of an unknown, but birds and other animals would be distinguished.
Goran, in the US in March 1968, thousands of dead sheep were found in Arizona, close to a US nerve agent testing area. It later transpired that nerve agent had drifted out of the area after aeriel spraying.
Nerve agents are usually tested for effectiveness on rats and guinea pigs – do they count as animals Goran?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/neuroscience/novichok-agent
Goran, I’ve got no ‘my’ theory, I just dont believe in misterious coincidences.
Why not finding a pair of gloves, or may be a mask, or a bag with total chemical defence costume? Those objects could give away the murderer to passers-by easier than a small syringe in the poket.
Goran
She’ll wiggle out of giving a straight answer but will come up with something vague and diversionary with a touch of warmth and cuddliness. It’s like RT – always critical of the West but never offering alternatives or solutions. Tatyana’s very good, you know!
Having just seen her reply, I should have said “and sometimes resorts to incomprehensibility when answering” 🙂
@ Igor July 5, 2018 at 16:28
I find the news on RT to be far more truthful and informative than our supine MSM.
That is the way we argue, Igor. Attracting attention to details and discussing. None is expected to have all answers, except eye-witnesses are among us.
An idiotic remark.
RT is a news station. Not some think tank for the West.
Glad to assist.
@ Goran Schmitt July 5, 2018 at 14:50
‘…Organophosphates are extremely complex chemicals and can be engineered to attack one species more effectively than another, that is why they are used as insecticides to kill pests but leave livestock unharmed….’
Tell that to the farmers whose herds became ‘burnt offerings’ to Big Pharma’s ‘God’, Moloch.
And before you respond (if you do), I suggest you read ‘Animal Pharm’ by Mark Purdey.
A short video interview of Mark is here (he later died of a ‘brain tumour’ – hardly surprising as he was a big-time thorn in the side for Big Pharma and the Establishment): ‘What causes BSE, CJD & MS? Organic Farmer Mark Purdey on Organophosphates (2001)’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MheeiX2w8JU
” Many chemicals of both classes are extremely toxic and lack selectivity, thus their inadvertent/accidental use continues to pose a threat to human and animal health, aquatic systems and wildlife.”
From
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780120885237
You seem challenged where the word “fact” is concerned.
Here are some facts: this story is live a day before the cabinet hold a Brexit meeting at Chequers and 1-2 days before the scheduled quarter-finals in the World Cup.
“General public”? What a stuck-up Tory landladies’ phrase that is, beloved too of officials when they circle their wagons that carry the livery of their beloved caste-based criminal regime. Do you know anything about the history of Porton Down’s use of unwitting non-volunteers?
First time Mrs. May asked the world to expel russian diplomats.
This time she must ask them to pull out of the World Cup.
EU going to extend sanctions on Russia again…more fitting reason and intention of course now.
Tatyana
Nonsense, Stop trolling this site.
@ Igor July 5, 2018 at 16:35
Most of us are very glad Tatyana comments on this blog; I believe the boot is on the other foot…
Igor, I would quit this blog if asked by Mr. Murray, or moderators. Your rude demand is not taken into consideration.
LOL.
The trolls here have been banned many times.
They’re still here under different names.
You can spot them easily because they’re the most incurious people ever to set foot on planet earth, and they’ll always support any govt theory no matter how implausible.
N_
So your challenge of my interpretation of the facts is that this is a BREXIT/World Cup conspiracy? Then some Tory conspiracy/ Porton Down claptrap? Wow! Keep it up!
The endgame is? Brexit/cancelled sporting competition? Ha ha ha ha halfwit
Can’t you think of any reasons the UK govt might have it in for the Russian govt.
Is it your view that there are none.
Have the rather existential economic and trade wars escaped your attention.
Is Goran Schmitt Mark Urban, peeved by the critcism of him on this site? I’ve my reasons for thinking he might choose this name, maybe someone might have further ideas from the contentbof his posts.
You could well be right, Pyotr, but in any case Mark Urban just covers up for the UK state, especially in the Iran-Contra, non-nuclear showdown with the USSR after Palme’s assassination, and the Brits running the IRA during The Troubles
Pyotr Grozny
Are you in fact Sergei Lavrov? Your English is certainly good enough! So I think you might well be him having a bit of fun.
“The facts are clear”
There are facts? What facts? They are clear you say? So clear that you can see right through them?
A valid theory, but then it needs to be explained how the poison remained active for 4 months when it could not last a day on Skripal’s door handle. It could be that it was in a closed container that the victims opened. But then the question arises: what kind of container could it be that is both convenient for carrying the poison and compelling to open once found? I have known a few drug addicts and they would not touch a found syringe with a barge pole because things like AIDS and Hepatitus are not abstact knowledge to them.
Heil: England’s chief medical officer Dame Sally Davies: “I should warn the public to be careful of picking up any unknown or already dangerous objects such as needles and syringes.”
That sentence encapsulates the kind of attitude that the British elite and its hangers-on and functionaries have towards the majority of the people in this country.
Listen to the next bit:
“Senior defence sources insist there is ‘nothing to suggest clean up failure’ and previously contaminated sites are considered safe. The working theory is that they stumbled on a syringe discarded by whoever attacked the Skripals, which would have been almost impossible to spot.”
Perhaps Britgov should abolish its chemical weapons defence capability, and we can all have a big party with the money? If they can’t decontaminate a site, what’s the point of having them?
I think we should all have a shower now with immediate effect….
@ N_ July 5, 2018 at 14:22
He forgot to mention doorknobs!
thank goodness for Craig Murray’s commonsense. Pity the MSM won’t run his thoughts.
The 2001, Fort Detrick anthrax case in summary.
# Anthrax is mailed to a number of news people and politicians.
# Envelopes and letters are in child’s handwriting, letters suggest anti-Zionist motivations, targeting of individuals does not necessarily support this.
# Letters are sent in two bursts.
# Anthrax is analysed and shown to almost certainly have originated at the military research facility in Fort Detrick, Maryland.
# Laboratory staff are investigated and two odd ball, fantasist individuals are identified as persons of interest.
# One individual is eventually cleared, the remaining suspect commits suicide six years after the original incident and shortly before they were going to be charged.
# Case is closed with the presumption that the dead suspect, Dr Bruce Ivins was the culprit.
If Ivins was responsible and that is a big assumption given his inability to defend himself then what does that tell us?
Military research labs sometimes employ individuals with hidden mental health problems.
Such individuals can act out by unleashing the material they are working on into the public realm.
Their motives for doing so can be complex or unfathomable, but attention seeking is right up there.
https://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/04/us/04anthrax.html
Hi Vivian, that is certainly one explanation for the Anthrax case. Not the most convincing though.
Do you have any idea how difficult it would be to get anything in or out of one of those laboratories that wasn’t supposed to go in or out?
Didn’t say that Fort Detrick was the definitive source of the anthrax, just one possibility. The point being to highlight one potential explanation for current events.
Sure the government spokesperson always assure us that laboratory security is utterly impenetrable (WTF else are they going to say), they did so earlier this year.
There was a documentary on, say 18 months ago where Dr Max Mosely was given access to Porton Down. In one segment a senior chemist was mixing up VX in his shirt sleeves using what appeared to be a bog standard fume cupboard (fair enough, he could of been making a coffee and was hamming it up for the cameras).
Just saying, security may not be all that it’s made out to be.
As a side note, a federal official fed to anchor Brian Ross on codition of anonymity the claim that the anthrax samples were confirmed to have tested positive for bentonite, which would have implicated the Iraqi government, an assertion that was later proven to be utterly and completely false.
@ Vivian O’Blivion July 5, 2018 at 14:28
‘..# Anthrax is mailed to a number of news people and politicians….’
Only to two politicians, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy and Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, both of whom had been opposing important Administration issues, including the Patriot Act.
Following the targeting, both dropped their opposition. So to me looks far more like a CIA plot than a ‘mad scientist’.
Patriot act passed the Senate 98 votes to 1. Don’t think they were exactly crapping themselves that it wouldn’t pass.
That was after the anthrax, wasn’t it.
For context this was occurring at the same time that the USG, particularly Colin Powell, was selling the “Saddam is manufacturing anthrax” propaganda. Seems unlikely to be the actions of an unhinged government employee. More like a co-ordinated effort to create new realities (as they used to say).
As always Craig, going behind all the smokescreens and bringing some realism to the “story”. Thanks.
Now we’re told that it is the “same strand” of “novichok agent” in both these reported cases, this most recent one and the Skripals. Lions and tigers and bears, oh, my!
The “jaw dropping” accusation that it was novichock and not an opioid, not food poisoning, and not vx or any of the plethora of other “agents” Porton Down keeps on its shelves is what’s jaw dropping. Are we to be given hard evidence or are we to make do with government press releases? Enquiring minds want to know.
Great work Craig! The scientists btw are obviously “scientists”.
Did you see the reports on presence of BX found in the Skripals’ samples by the Swiss OPCW lab?
It’s an Incapacitating Agent.
Lavrov was in the report too.