We are continually presented with experts by the mainstream media who will validate whatever miraculous property of “novichok” is needed to fit in with the government’s latest wild anti-Russian story. Tonight Newsnight wheeled out a chemical weapons expert to tell us that “novichok” is “extremely persistent” and therefore that used to attack the Skripals could still be lurking potent on a bush in a park.
Yet only three months ago we had this example of scores from the MSM giving the same message which was the government line at that time:
“Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: ‘These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'”
In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed. But now the properties of the agent have to fit a new narrative, so they transmute again.
It keeps happening. Do you remember when Novichok was the most deadly of substances, many times more powerful than VX or Sarin, and causing death in seconds? But then, when that needed to be altered to fit the government’s Skripal story, they found scientists to explain that actually no, it was pretty slow acting, absorbed gradually through the skin, and not all that deadly.
Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.
According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.
If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.
I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.
Both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess still have active facebook pages and one of Charlie’s handful of “Likes” is a mortgage broker, which is consistent with his brand new house. They don’t give mortgages to unemployed heroin addicts, and not many of those live in smart new “executive housing” estates. Both Charlie and Dawn appear from their facebook pages to be very well socialised, with Dawn having many friends in the teaching profession. Even if she has been homeless for a period as reported, she is plainly very much part of the community.
Naturally, there is no mention in all the reports today of MI6’s Pablo Miller, who remains the subject of a D notice. I wonder if he knows Rowley and Sturgess, living in the same community? It should be recalled that Salisbury may be a city, but its population is only 45,000.
The most important thing is of course that Charlie and Dawn recover. But tonight, even at this early stage, as with the entire Skripal saga, the message the security services are seeking to give out does not add up. Mark Urban’s piece for Newsnight tonight was simply disgusting; it did not even pretend to be more than a propaganda piece on behalf of the security services, who had told Urban (as he said) that Yulia Skripal’s phone “could have been” tapped by the Russians and they “might even” have listened to her conversations through the microphone in her telephone. That was the “new evidence” that the Russians were behind everything.
As a former British Ambassador I can tell you with certainty that indeed the Russians might have tapped Yulia, but GCHQ most definitely would have. It is, after all, their job, and billions of our taxes go into it. If tapping of phones is seriously presented as evidence of intent to murder, the British government must be very murderous indeed.
An Open Letter to the People of Britain,
by iconic Russian actor Vasily Livonov MBE
https://off-guardian.org/2018/07/06/on-russophobia-propaganda-and-russo-british-relations-an-open-letter-from-vasily-livanov
Here’s UK Column’s take on the matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSnQppLy8Bk
From a medical point of view, Carfentanil makes more sense and fits the symptoms seen in Canada and US
Suspect that doing GCMS for carfentanyl metabolites (or other fentanyl modifications) will prove to be impossible because blood samples will have either been lost or destroyed.
Rt has a posting…interview with Utin….no way this could be the previous Novichuk….https://www.rt.com/uk/431858-amesbury-terrorism-not-accidental/
@ Jo July 6, 2018 at 16:16
But what the heck has reality to do with this ‘narrative’?
shirley this is proofs enoughs that putins psychological warfare continues.
this russian bully is shirley playing games with are footbal teams we brits never have been broken by big brutes or bully new or old hitler.
the bulldog spirit must remain harder we must demand the russian football team be banned from the finals and the world cups are cancelled.
as a gesture of solidarity whatever way you spell it pablo should be left out of this we should all pray that charles and daark is the the dawns new 500k house and the fine new estate that it is on are not bulldozed by the portendowners chemi cull g4s serco clean up crews.
stay strong and when about a russian hold your breath until all clear.
at this moment many of are children are trapped in stalingrad and other hellish russian places
we must get them home to safety maybe we could use one of the new aircraft carrier that is waiting 12 years for for new top spec usa plane.
we should not use little boats like dunkirk but go all into putins backyard
forward for the children
bring are kids home from this disaster called the russiaphobes world cuppings
Were your comments sent in by morse code?
I too saw the News night program and could not belive the guy spouting that rubbish about phone taps.
The story now seems to be that the nerve agent was either in a syringe or a perfume spray that was discarded by whoever poisoned the Skripals. Firstly what kind of assassin leaves evidence like that behind, secondly why was it not found by police (pretty sure they’ll have dogs or devices to sniff it out) and thirdly how stupid do they now look given that they’ve been saying how safe the area is now…. Heck if I was Prince Charles I’d never trust them again! Mind you I suppose he should know if anyone should!
No, I don’t mean that last bit, I’m no conspiracy nut, I believe the earth is round as is the moon where humans first landed in 1969. Kennedy, probably Lee, and Diana, a drunk driver and some too eager paparazzi….. but this, this is just a pantomime.
Main Stream Media is living on another planet. Slightly off topic, but today (July 6) the US Congress announced that it is demanding the arrest of Hillary Clinton. I cannot find any reference to this in any MSM. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_fJVyQWHNE.
Perhaps I am living on another planet.
Looks to be real.
I am watching it now, and the Press Conference has at least a few new salient details about the DOJ and the FBI.
Big news indeed.
@ Monster July 6, 2018 at 18:40
Let’s hope you’re right; that Luciferian cow needs ‘it’s’ collar felt (as does ‘it’s’ ‘hubby’ (wife)).
Read Cathy O’Brien’s ‘Access Denied – For Reasons Of National Security’, and Gary Webb’s ‘Dark Alliance: The CIA, the Contras, and the Crack Cocaine Explosion’. Gary got ‘suicided’ for his efforts to get the truth out – all the more reason to check his book out and spread his information.
Checked this out, the video seems a genuine broadcast going back to May 2018, the news banner is an overlay. US folks are looking at this as old news, seems the youtube poster just wanted to get some traffic.
MSM is not from another planet but another country or at least I should say, another Embassy
Maybe in the Middle East this heavy handed approach works with the self satisfied house bulldozers and Landgrabbers but it’s managed to discredit the entire mainstream media – something the (real) left has tried and failed to do for 70 years, Mark Regev has managed to do in 18 months. Astonishing!
Several new tidbits have emerged though I expect a clamp-down now that Wiltshire police have been kicked off the case again:
(1) Charlie was a dumpster-diver who would have been on the lookout for monetizable items in Lizzie Gardens and elsewhere. Google StreetView shows some dense shrubbery there where objects could go unnoticed for months.
“Mr Rowley was a thrifty individual who would forage for goods to sell or use and was known to collect cigarette ends, according to friend Ben Jordan. “He used to pick up fag butts, go into charity shop bins, find curtains, kettles … anything and everything to sell, to survive, to use,” the 27-year-old said. “What the charity shop doesn’t want, he will fix it or sell it or use it for himself.
(2) Vladimir Uglev, the original synthetic organic chemist, has chimed in. He actually knows something about the environmental stability of A234 unlike all the chemical illiterates speculating stupidly about stability of THIS PARTICULAR COMPOUND under UKNOWN CONDITIONS OF STORAGE
He told The Independent the “near impossible to detect” nerve agent would likely stick around in Salisbury for years to come.
“The substance can absorb itself into any soft surface, whether trees, leather, or park benches. From there it can be absorbed onto people’s skin with all the consequences. It is known to be a particularly resilient compound, but its precise stability depends on climatic factors.
In direct sunshine on an even metallic surface, the substance evaporates quickly, says Mr Uglev. In colder, drier conditions, absorbed onto uneven, softer surfaces, it can stick around for a long time. When stored in ampules – sealed glass capsules – its shelf life stretches to decades.
(3) Uglev also put forward an interesting new scenario: the contaminated object was a left-over stash set up prior to the Skripal bench attack.
‘The scientist also raised the possibility that the second confirmed novichok contamination came about from an unused batch of poison that had been prepared for the assassin. It may be secondary contamination from the first batch, or the assassin had several syringes prepared for him, left buried somewhere in the area. Perhaps he only used one or two of those batches.’ [[This fits with QEG being awkwardly situated with respect to the Skripal’s bench, in terms of tossing a incriminating poison kit.]]
A Russian politician Zheleznyak put forward the idea, given the odd timing, of no novichok but simply exploiting an OD: ‘Their friend called the police and an ambulance and when the story became known to British officials and the secret services, they decided to use it as another case in this wild story about Russian spies, toxic substances and anti-Russian hysteria. It’s not a planned incident but an opportunity which British officials are trying to use.’ [Porton Down scientists have never said a word over the last four months, never confirmed anything.]
(4) An adulterated heroin batch (spike: heroin + scopolamine or strychnine) would have taken down half of Salisbury but it didn’t:
A man who knew the couple said he was stunned they had been caught up in the Russian poison drama. They definitely would not have been targeted, they are junkies … And drug users here said right from the start it must be something else, otherwise other people would have gotten sick.”
(5) Dawn was seen on cctv buying a fifth of vodka at Charlie’s Store at Old George Mall in Salisbury, earlier four cans of Karpackie beer (9%) at an off license at the bottom of Rollestone Street in Salisbury. Karpackie may be similar to what we call a malt liquor, eg Olde English 800. Some reports have her as a snorting or smoking heroin addict on top of the alcoholism.
(6) Charlie had earlier onset of symptoms than previous reported:
Reverend Roy Collins said Charlie Rowley was “incoherent” when he attended a family fun day at Amesbury Baptist Church, in Wiltshire on Saturday. Charlie was there and he did stand out a little bit, he was not very well dressed and was rather disheveled in his appearance. I assumed that he had been drinking [but Hobson reports he was stone sober].
(7) Feeding the dog at the table encourages the dog to beg at the table at the next meal:
Former UN inspector in Iraq Anton Utkin said he “wasn’t at all surprised” by the news reports of a new chemical poisoning in the UK, which emerged earlier this week. Several months ago I said when the responsibility for the use of chemical weapons is assigned before the investigation it actually provokes more use of chemical weapons.. By blaming Russia for using the so-called Novichok nerve agent against former double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in Salisbury without providing any proof the UK government actually put its own population in danger because if there are some enemies of Russia, who would like to create problems for the country, they would find incentives in conducting terrorist acts with the use of chemical weapons because they know for sure who would be blamed after such incidents,” the chemical arms expert explained.
(8) It is very inconvenient to field test for A234. Portable chemical monitors used as alerting systems do not work.
Portable monitoring devices which can detect various nerve agents are not set up to look for novichok substances because “they were not considered likely chemical weapons” when the devices were designed. These devices are used by the military and weapons inspectors to find traces of substances like mustard or sarin gas in the air or around the site of a weapon’s use.
Without them the inspectors are having to take soil and vegetation samples in the areas visited by the victims before testing them manually in a laboratory to ensure all traces are removed. “There is no specific method for detection for novichoks in the environment,” Professor Alastair Hay, an expert in environmental toxicology at the University of Leeds, said. “There are chemical agent monitors for various nerve agents which can be used, but nothing which will identify novichoks as they were not considered likely chemical weapons when the monitors were designed.”
Chemical agent monitors (CAMs) are used by the military or weapons inspectors to detect vapour traces given off by the chemical weapons as they break down. his might also make them unsuitable in the case of novichok as the chemical is known to be very stable and remains active long after us,. Other devices are able to sample these “involatile” nerve agents, which don’t form vapours on their own, by heating up samples and swabs to release the chemicals and make them detectable, Professor Hay said.
While effective detectors require a precise picture for novichok, less specific detectors do exist and could flag substances with a similar molecular make-up to the chemical weapon – which is largely phosphorous based. “But [that] would give false positives if there were any other phosphorus containing chemicals in the area being sampled,” Professor Hay told The Independent.
Thanks for that Tom. I guess I’m a bit surprised at Uglev deciding to chime in now about the incredible persistence of this novichok – it might have been information he could have shared in, say, the BBC interview in April (was it?)
Nearly as surprised as finding out 50% of Salisbury residents are smackheads!
But I am a chemical illiterate, so …
Another scientist Mirzaynov who developed Novichok said that it deteriorated when in contact with water.
Even public health of the UK says wash your clothes and use baby wipes.
This scientist that you quote I think is less than truthful. Seems to have an agenda by coming up with this latest story that the nerve agent will last forever.
No. We have been over this a hundred times. Mirzaynov, now 83 and a US defector, had nothing whatsoever to do with making novichoks. He is NOT QUALIFIED as an organic chemist, knows nothing firsthand about their properties, and never worked in the novichok labs. His job there was head of security, preventing theft by other nations. (Ironically the US dismantled the lab and took what they wanted back to Maryland.) He has been making preposterous statements for four months, sort of the Russian counterpart of Hamish de BG.
Now Vlad Uglev .. he knows the properties of A234 better than anyone as he synthesized the compound originally and tested it extensively.
@ James July 6, 2018 at 17:56
Or perhaps a shrewd speculator who owns property outside of a 25 mile radius of Salisbury/Amesbury, waiting for (and fuelling) the ‘inevitable’ total evacuation of the area.
I am no scientist but I was puzzled by, in the latest Uglev article, to the references to the nerve agent’s absorbent properties, when as I understand it, its weakness is its degrading from contact with water. Si I thought there might be be a translation / interpretation issue and Uglev was describing its adsorbent properties? But adsoprtion in the open air would not make it last either and its durability could only result from secure storage, but in the bushes?
.
@ Crispa July 6, 2018 at 19:07
Be fair – anyone who ventures into the bushes deserves all they get.
Up to this time I still hesitate, I can’t believe British govt could stage Skripals case. They must be mad to do it, and I don’t believe in a bunch of mad people in a government.
I incline to think it is a third party’s false flag. Mrs. May is probably threatened or blackmailed, that is what I think.
Tomorrow England plays with Sweden. I imagine any demonstrative actions, honestly. If only the Novichok affair will be used to sabotage the World Cup, then I will believe Britain have poisoned Skripals especially to openly humiliate Russia.
Hi Tatyana. It seems the British govt of the day couldn’t stage a piss-up in the proverbial brewery. Deep state, cock-up, 3rd party (false flag or no), who knows , but they’re shrewd enough to seize any opportunity for political gain at home (and abroad).
Nick, I can’t imagine any political gain which could be worth this.
If it were Ukraine, then possibly yes. Not Britain.
Skripal himself was born in Kiev, he had friends there. Ukraine is ex-USSR and possibly there could be stockpiles of USSR-developed chemicals in it. There are special intelligence and military and diplomatic ties between Ukraine and the West. Ukraine has the strongest motive to badmouth Russia.
Tatyana. I’m thinking a Corbyn (possibly genuinely socialist) government is a far more dangerous and immediate threat than Russia [to the govt and the people above them]. Then there’s Brexit and relations with the EU and the rest of the world. Ukraine is a world away, a pawn to be moved and exploited. I completely see that for you – from the other side of the fence, where all the sh*t is being heaped, it is incomprehensible. Rightly so, I can only imagine. I definitely had Ukraine up there on my internal list of people with huge motives. There are a few contenders, for me, Russia, at the bottom of this list.
Unfortunately I’m a nobody.
I read, Livanov’s open letter today – refused publication in our MSM – and my heart leapt out.
Take care, keep strong.
Nick, yes it’s true, I can’t see from here what is so scary with Brexit or who is Corbyn.
Getting a good piece of land like Crimea is more obviouse goal for me. Or, Golan heights, if Isr@el could kick Russia out of Syria on chemical weapons pretext.
And another yes to Livanov’s letter. I can second every word in it. We feel so much respect to British history and achievents and so much love to your culture and national character (only outmeal porrige is arguable:-)
What’s going on in our countries’ relations is inexplicable, it just doesn’t fit into my image of you.
I’ve seen a statement by the police that they traced two russian assassins.
You know ‘ it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck…’ this doesn’t work in this case. Because if it lookes like a russian and quacks like a russian it can be either a russian or ukrainian. You can never distinguish one from the other.
Hmmm…or isr@elian, a lot of russians move there.
Tatyana, you must be FSB then, and has Putin issued Order Number 227, with regards to continually using Novichok in England. ?
Ah, Republicofscotland, nevermind 🙂 first time I was called a Kremlin bot I felt insulted that people are just prejudiced and don’t believe in sincere russian persons. After a number of putinpuppet, russiantroll and so on I became immune.
What I really miss is my link I used to put under my nickname here. It saved a lot of effort. It stayed in my laptop, I use my phone and pad at the moment.
@ Tatyana July 6, 2018 at 17:22
‘…They must be mad to do it, and I don’t believe in a bunch of mad people in a government….’
You’re absolutely right; they are not ‘mad’, but downright evil.
With Britain looking ever increasingly likely to crash out of the EU without a deal. The British government are suffering from delusions of grandeur, and that once more the British empire may rise again.
The impetus for such delusional behaviour, lies not just in Brexit, but, in the ability to point the finger at Russia, for chemical attacks in England, without a shred of evidence to back the claim up.
Of course, the false condemnation of all things eminating from the Kremlin, could be scare tactics to bump up the defence budget, so that Britain once again can project an aura of importance around the globe.
However, the British government could by blaming Russia, without any evidence, and be pandering to Europe and America, hoping that information will still be shared with it, because the Russian bogeyman needs put in his place, as he’s a threat to the world in general.
I second your first two paragraphs.
Delusional in the sense that they still seem to think other EU countries will keep blindly following them.
I don’t think so.
Macron’s megalomanical ego has made him state he’s going to see France play in the World Cup.
Macron has already said ‘au revoir’ Theresa — From Russia with love.
I have some information to share with the British political class: P!ss Off. and stop annoying us.
Following the tory govt’s idea of evidence and proof, arrest home secretary Gollum for ritual cannibalism. Well, he LOOKS as if he regularly eats babies. And refuses to provide an alibi.
Is it possible that some Porton Down employee became disgruntled for some reason, and was (either accidentally or deliberately) careless about safety/security routines on leaving work — before the Skripal incident? And that they were working with Novichok samples that day?
And that the same person was more recently in Amesbury?
They wouldn’t necessarily be sick themselves, if they didn’t get it on their skin, but could be carrying something, like a bag, which had traces on it, and thereby left traces on a couple of bushes or park benches?
Otherwise, it sounds like this “thorough cleaning” in Salisbury wasn’t “thorough” at all.
@ Maywood July 6, 2018 at 17:47
There is only one sure-fire way to cleanse an area once Novichok 234 has been released – nuke the area.
For a small fee, Uncle Vlad will undertake the ‘cleansing’, I hear from very reliable sources (he has even reduced his normal fee, as he is quite keen on ‘neutralising’ Porton Down).
To me, still the most important question, is why the police are lying about when they suspected chemical poisoning was the culprit. The photos of Dawn being taken into an ambuance show the paramedics dressed as they normally would. By the time Charlie is being loaded into an ambulance, approximately four and a half hours later, the paramedics are wearing hazmat suits and are being supported at the scene by members of the fire and rescue service. Three hours or so later, more than ten emergency vehicles arrive at the now empty house, including Fire and Rescue, Incident Response, Ambulance, Police, and a mobile decontamination shower from Swindon. The roads are closed and locals told to stay indoors. During that time people wearing green hazmat suits enter the house with a fire hose. Clearly they were not looking for heroin. But even today, almost a week later, the Chief of Police is saying in interviews they were only treating it as a case of bad drugs and nothing else. Why are the most senior police officers in Wiltshire lying, and why this particular lie?
Maybe the “disgruntled employee” that I suggested, had a shouting match with their boss, and the Porton Down people have an arrangement with the police to inform them on any occasion that an employee appears to be in “risky” form. And when the police checked their records, they realised they had one of those reports on their hands. And the hazmat suits were brought out … I grant you, it’s a long shot.
Very good questions Maywood. If there is an internal leak from Porton Down, then the state has every reason to lie about it. The anthrax case in the USA, 2001, was never solved, and it has some similar features to this.
Think in terms of a “leak” of practiced ability to conduct the chemistry rather than a physical leak. Not that a disgruntled employee wouldn’t be able to smuggle a small quantity of agent through security, rather an issue with control of inventory. I would imagine protocols for inventory control are ultra strict, finished goods and precursors. After the initial incident checks will have been made. This does not eliminate the rogue employee hypothesis as we are told that someone with the know how should be able to mix up a home brew with readily available raw materials and laboratory kit.
Probably they were trying to find source of the novichoks which infected Rowlie and Sturgess before announcing it so they could say it was destroyed at same time
@ SJH July 6, 2018 at 17:49
‘..still the most important question, is why the police are lying..’
Ever heard the one about the frog and the scorpion? There’s your answer.
it is pointless trying to rationalise the events surrounding the Skripals and now the Amesbury two – here’s why –
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=87585
the british state actors have undoubtedly been up to their old tricks again and now this lousy tory government needs to be put out of its misery before we all sink with it!
State actors, plus the media:
Look at this BBC’s interview with Charlie Rowley’s brother Matthew.
BBC: How is your brother doing [in hospital]?
MR: “Oh he’s alright. He’s fit and – fit, and – he’s alright”
BBC: “Em, em… We’re told his condition is critical, [and quickly changing the subject:] Em, what kind of guy is your brother … tell me about him…”
Skwawkbox then points to the parallel with Yulia Skripal saying she and her father are just fine, no health issues, just a confusing situation…
https://skwawkbox.org/2018/07/06/video-bbc-ignores-amesbury-brother-hes-fine-im-not-sure-how-he-got-involved-with-that-lot/
Have you all noticed when a Tory minister like Sajid Javid is blaming the Russians for this latest false-flag farce there is one either side nodding his or her head in agreement. These Noddys of the Commons are different from the Noddys of the Lords who usually nod off. Doesn’t it make you ashamed to be British? We are the laughing-stock of the world. Thank God for the World Cup which these bozos tried to scupper. Come on England!
John, I understand that the SNP are now in the frame, as the type of Novijock used can only be made in n Scotland! Laughable, if not extremely worrying that these people wield such power.
Good luck on the football front – you’ve as much chance of making the final as anyone. In the final, I feel the other half of the draw are slightly stronger but who knows?
JOML.
Yeah Trump’s heading to the England , then onto Scotland for a weekend of golf, more’s the pity.
I wonder if the British government realise what utter buffoons they appear to the outside world, by throwing wild accusations around that Russia is culpable without any credible evidence to back them up.
If evidence existed that the Kremlin was guilty it would be plastered from here to kingdom come by now. No it appears to me that the British government are running a smear campaign based on prejudice.
You’d better keep Mr. Trump away from Salisbury and from collecting cigarette ends or used syringes. You know, attempted murder of US president is a perfect casus belli, they will nuke us and we will nuke back …
Maybe that’s the plan, for when Trump visits England Trump’s demise would automatically be blamed on the Kremlin.
Novichok, appears to move in mysterious ways, similar to the JFK magic bullet. The shortest tenure for any POTUS to pop his cloggs in office, is that of William Henry Harrison, poor Mr Harrison lasted only 31 days as POTUS.
@ Republicofscotland July 6, 2018 at 19:32
He was outlasted by two days by Pope John Paul I; he managed 33 days, before being poisoned.
john – yes – laughing stock.. i agree.. as a consequence, i am rooting for england to win the soceer match! they need something positive to focus on instead of seeing the lack of political leadership and honest msm coverage on such a regular basis!
England are probably under orders now not to win.
It’d be far too embarrassing that there be none of our leaders there to cheer them on as they close in on the final.
But, this is the most incompetent British govt, in every area, since, can’t remember really.
@ james July 6, 2018 at 18:58
My ‘wet dream’ is for a playoff with UK-Russia, and for the Ruskis to win 5-1.
Wonder what the odds are?
And I’m a (disgusted) Englishman.
@ John Goss July 6, 2018 at 17:59
Take a look at the two Bozos behind Craig when he was giving evidence: distraction (I don’t have the link to hand).
This is par for the course – either nodding agreement or distracting, depending on whether what the key person is ‘on side’ or opposition.
Nerve agents not found in samples from Syria’s Douma – interim OPCW report6 Jul, 2018 17:45
No traces of any nerve agents have been found at the site of a suspected chemical attack in the Syrian city of Douma, an interim report issued by the OPCW says. However, traces of chlorine were found at the site.
“Various chlorinated organic chemicals were found in samples” from two locations in the Damascus suburb of Douma, which were examined by specialists from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), an interim OPCW document said. The chemicals were found in two samples taken from canisters found in Douma, the report said. The report confirmed the absence of any traces of nerve agents, such as sarin, at the site.
The OPCW sent a fact-finding mission to Douma in April, around a week after the alleged incident. During the same month, Russia said that chlorine containers from Germany, which apparently belonged to militants, were found in the liberated parts of Douma.
Later, the Russian military found an entire laboratory operated by militants in central Douma, which was capable of producing chemical weapons. The lab had some sophisticated equipment, including an industrial chemical reactor, which was apparently used by the militants to create toxic agents. The footage, taken by Russian journalists inside the facility, also showed vast stockpiles of various chemicals, some of which were produced in Germany, as well as empty mortar shells that can be filled with poisonous substances.
The purported chemical incident in Douma allegedly took place on April 7. A week later, Washington and its allies launched a massive retaliatory missile strike against Syria, without waiting for the OPCW to start its investigation of the incident.
The OPCW report comes about a week after the OPCW was granted authority not only to investigate whether any alleged chemical attack took place, but also to assign blame for them. Moscow then warned that the move that actually drove a wedge between some key OPCW members could lead to a situation, which the chemical watchdog would be used as a political tool.
https://www.rt.com/news/431994-nerve-agents-not-found-douma/
Over to the Western warmongers.
Sharp Ears, thank you, at lasr we get the report!
Wording is strange, do I understand it right, that only 2 samples from canisters itselves are containing chlorine, and no traces of either chlorine or nerve agents found in sites?
Yes Tatyana.
George Galloway has been speaking on a radio talk show tonight.
He tweeted @ 8.25pm:
The OPCW have just reported, well two hours ago, maybe it’ll make it on a later bulletin. There was no nerve gas attack on Douma. There was no nerve agent deployed on Douma. We were taken to World War 3’s brink on a crock. A crock of vile propaganda. Ring any bells?..”
https://mobile.twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1015315749769039872
See the comments below his tweet.
However note BBC headline “Syria war: Douma attack was chlorine gas – watchdog”
Crispa, it is strange, because I remember it pretty well – everyone said the sypthoms were not of chlorine poisoning, but nerve agent or a mix. I remember the White Helmets were filming *I’m sorry* the eyes of the victims as a proof. You can see it in the link i give below, if you have strong nerves.
It would be a hugely delicious irony if the OPCW, with its new-found powers, pointed the finger of blame at the rebels.
There are few thinks certainties in this life, but one of them is the OPCW will never do that (regardless of the truth on the ground).
Yes, I can’t disagree there.
The children in that apartment building didn’t die from chlorine gas. Even when lethal it isn’t a fast death.
The foaming at the mouth indicates a nerve agent – and I am not the only one to say that. But what nerve agent if not sarin? The OPCW seems suddenly very reluctant to find out.
I’ve said once here on this blog that my outmos fear is – russians could cover Assad’s use of chemical weapons. And also I said, I found the Bellingcat’s investigation very convincing. And the third thing I said was – if you write down the time and facts from the investigation, and if you listen very attentively to the video provied by the White Helmets – you probably meet the same contradiction which I’ve met.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/
Here it is, found in bookmarks.
The video shot the next morning, by some volunteer, his face is covered by gas mask, pointing out to a chlorine cylynder on the bed.
While he is speaking you can here a ‘kiri-kuku’ by a cock. It is early morning. It is not a ground floor, but upperfloor, next to the roof. The cock’s singing couldn’t come from the street. And there’s a report by russian military a day or even 2 later – no traces of chemical attack in the building and a man living in a lower lewel keeps hens directly inside the flat.
You can’t poison people in two levels of a building with sarin and have chiken alive and gesund at the same time and no traces of nerve agents found by OPCW.
Whoever carried the attack, whatever method or place it was, no way to poison people and have a live cock singing the next morning. Also, the man who shot the video could easily shoot himself taking an object from the site and pass it later to OPCW. It was never done. Dead bodies? Rebels claimed they’ve buried them and offered to point the place – no mention of samples frm bodies in the report.
Chlorine is “old’ well known chemical, no need to examine it since April till July. Even with totally unknown Novichok it took 3 weeks only to blame Russia.
We’ve known since the Ukraine coup that Bellingcat was not an independent source.
He’s since turned up at the Atlantic Council. Anti-Putin
And the White Helmets were set up a former British Army chap, and are funded by the British govt. Anti-Putin
@ Sean Lamb July 6, 2018 at 20:25
Shaving foam? That’s what they normally use.
Chlorinated chemicals can be found in my toilet at regular times.
True — it kills.
But the victims have extremely tiny voices, and even tinier animal rights.
@ Sharp Ears July 6, 2018 at 19:28
Shush! Don’t tell Treason May, she’s got enough problems, already!
thanks sharp ears.. moa has written about this too –
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/07/syria-opcw-issues-first-report-of-chemical-weapon-attack-in-douma.html#comments
SE and others
But here is a conundrum. Do we only believe OPCW when they come up with what we think the right answer? Just asking this question which sometimes also applies to other organisations such as Amnesty international and U.N. bodies.
I do trust OPCW chemical tests, because they have special recognised laboratories and samples are tested in several countries simultaneously. It is not testing in one laboratory with the same personell every time. Due to this system we knew about BZ in Skripals case.
I don’t know why did they got power to name the culprit, I belive it is responsibility of detectives, investigators, but not of chemical scientists.
Tatyans, I take your point but remember the OPCW produced reports that implicated the SG in the Khan Sheikon Sarin attack without verifying the chain of custody. Similarly I am not sure that the chain of custody has been totally verified in the Salisbury case as it appears that they may have been given the samples by PD which is after all one of thier laboratories.
In a way I also have faith in the OPCW as far as the chemical scientific part of it goes, but thier reports have to be collated and approved by non-scientists. We also know that these organisations are heavily lent upon by the US. If you read mohammed Al Baradei’s book ‘The age of deception’ you will understand what dealing goes on behind the scenes. Also John Bolton insisted in replacing the previous chief of the OPCW with the current more pliable incumbent who happily declared that 50-100 grams of Novichok were used in the Salisbury attack before he was corrected by others.
If Russia is using the UK as a dumping ground for its novichok, how is it getting it into the kingdom, and why is it choosing such a difficult dumping ground to reach when there are many more closer and more effective ones closer at hand?
Looks like a massive counterterrorist failure according to the UK’s own claims.
And what will all this do for English tourism?
Maybe the best the UK could hope for is Novichok sight-seeing.
Or start to export Novichok that is ‘harvested’ in and around Salisbury and Amesbury.
I’m sure there is a market for it.
Ah but they followed only the movements of the Skripals and not the poisoners! The big elephant in the room in all this investigation is that at no point in the early investigation nor even now has a manhunt been called for killers at large because either they know who they are or haven’t a clue who they are. The only feeble hint that they now know the two assassins is that they are in Russia under the protection of Putin. Nevertheless they still reassure us that everyone is safe.
I came across some other stuff of possible interest:
(8) Wiltshire Police Chief Constable Kier Pritchard is looking extremely ill at ease as Wiltshire bows out of a routine investigation while offering extravagant complements to the 100 officers from the counter terrorism network.
He might be uncomfortable knowing CTN et al have zero interest in really investigating, that the outcome will be silence just like before, and a 3rd round could land on his lap later. Indeed they have started off casting an impossibly wide net, just like before with the 2500 hours of cctv but not 5 minutes to release the cam covering the Skripal bench. We saw all that before in false-flag anthrax, it is SOP for the FBI when they don’t really want to ID the perp.
Or, Pritchard could be fretting about criticism: people are ticked off at all levels of govt that millions of pounds were spent at Salisbury cleanup theatre yet here was more novichok right there in a nearby public park. True, a great deal of effort was spent cleaning up surfaces that were never contaminated to begin with, in support of the bogus narrative.
Not one single test result has ever been disclosed despite many hundreds of samples taken. A great show was made of taking swipes for the telly but there’s no record of them ever leaving the evidence room. i would guess PD either never received them or never bothered to test knowing there would be no point to it.
So I do not fault the Wiltshire police or hazmet orderlies here. Lizzie Gardens is nearby to be sure but not really a natural exit route from the bench. Are the police to pick up every cigarette butt and syringe from every public park in Salisbury? Send divers into River Avon to bring up all the garbage discarded there? Test many thousands of samples?
(9) Sam Hobson is an interesting chap, well-spoken and a keen observer. That was a good decision to have him lead police around to all the sites. He has a NVQ [National Vocational Qualification] level 2 [level 5 is senior management] in HGV mechanics (18-wheelers: heavy goods vehicle] so is functioning head and shoulders above most of the shire.
Hobson and Charlie are quite different in age so it’s not clear how they became friends. Possibly they met in prison, more likely Woodhill than Winchester. Hobson was in for a drunken prank with a transit bus and Charlie for dealing 11 wraps and £1700 theft from his loopy older brother.
Hobson made this striking statement the other day: “It’s obviously something that they touched [that has made the pair ill] and they’ve got infected by it so they’re getting enzymes pumped through them in the hospital, same as the other people did last time,” he said.
Whoa … who could have told him that, only Salisbury Hospital staff. We discussed this way up-forum: a somewhat experimental treatment involving intravenous butyrylcholinesterase, a paralog of the AChE enzyme affected in all organophosphate poisonings. It has a very similar active site and so is capable of covalently binding novichoks, removing them from circulation. There are three variations on this: human serum albumen which has a reactive tyrosine and is more readily available in bulk, a minimally sufficient fragment thereof, or some specific hydrolytic enzyme.
I’m surprised they would take a chance on these but perhaps PD could offer assurances based on their human experimentation. The danger really is an autoimmune response which would amount to myasthenia gravis. However it’s ok to kick the can down the road if you can get the patient out of their current pickle.
The way Hobson described onset for Dawn, it sounds like she passed out and hit her head on the bathtub in a fall. Paramedics talked about a brain scan, so maybe a suspected concussion or cerebral hemorrhaging, on top of OP and drug/alcohol withdrawal. Prospects for recovery
It would not be out of line for first responders to take precautions for some of the fentanyls or a meth lab. Especially on the second go-round bringing out Charles, as that suggests aerosol contamination.
@ Tom Smythe July 6, 2018 at 20:12
UK CCTV is a wee bit temperamental: NOT ONE image was shown of any of the four ‘alleged suicide bombers’ on 7/7, despite the ubiquitous CCTV on the trains and platforms (if you have travelled on the London Underground, you would be aware of the constant reminder on the tannoy that everything is under 24/7 surveillance) CCTV on the trains and platforms.
Odd, what? But not as odd as the extremely fortunate ‘coincidence’ that an emergency morgue opened on the day before 7/7, in a Territorial Army facility in London, and handled all of the bodies (none of which were autopsied).
France has a similar problem, at least in and around the Alma Tunnel, and regarding illegal embalming (to preclude evidence Princess Di had a ‘bun in the oven’?).
Would that NVQ be the sort of thing you’d get in the army?
‘Dumpster Diving’ May Have Led Amesbury Pair to Novichok Contamination
https://sptnkne.ws/hXE5
Sounds very far fetched, besides, these dumpster would have been recycled months ago?
Either way, tragic that these people have to dive into dumpster to find whatever they are looking for to survive.
Yes the corporate whores are uttering full throated howls after the latest so-called Russian attack. Among the assumptions that pass as informed comment: the Russians did it because they invented Novichok; that no else can make Novichok; that some laughing right-wing psychopath isn’t engaged in a serial killing spree; that some laughing right-wing western government psychopath didn’t decide to use the Skripals as useful fools and martyrs; that this isn’t a false flag incident; that novichok kills instantly; that it doesn’t kill instantly; that it is persistent, that it isn’t; that a government elected by lies can be trusted; that government agencies can be trusted to tell the truth instead of falling behind government talking points (I do mean grovelling in the mud like worms); that these agencies won’t cover their butts first; that any and every UK party won’t commit any number of lies or crimes as long as they get elected; that their elected members won’t commit any number of crimes or lies as long as they appear on the Christmas honours list.
No one should believe anyone official, because they will lie or exaggerate to suit themselves, no matter how serious the crime or policy might be for the UK.
@ Richard Graham July 6, 2018 at 20:54
Welcome on board. Remember our secret passwords – ‘We told you so’.
Belgium 2, Brazil 1. Hope it beats the Brits.
The English! “Non Angli, sed angeli” – so much for infallibility.
All that hype (and expense) for this.
Theresa May secures approval from cabinet to negotiate soft Brexit
PM proposes creation of ‘UK-EU free trade area’ and matching food standards
6 Jul 2018 21.01 BST
Theresa May has secured approval to negotiate a soft Brexit deal with the European Union, signing up her fractious cabinet at a Chequers away day to what had been a controversial plan to match EU standards on food and goods.
The prime minister released a statement following the critical afternoon session of the long-awaited summit, in which she also confirmed she had won over the cabinet to new customs arrangements ending political deadlock on the issue.
May said that the cabinet had “agreed our collective position for the future of our negotiations with the EU”. That included a proposal to “create a UK-EU free trade area which establishes a common rule book for industrial goods and agricultural products” after Brexit.
On Thursday, when the common rule book proposal was first leaked, hardline Brexiter cabinet ministers and Conservative MPs voiced alarm that it could prevent the UK striking a trade deal with the US, which has different standards in goods and foods, such as allowing chickens to be washed in chlorine.
But May was able to release the text of a three-page agreed statement before cabinet ministers sat down for dinner to listen to Number 10 communications chiefs make a presentation on how to sell the new proposals, following a period of near continuous cabinet leaks.
/..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/06/theresa-may-secures-approval-from-cabinet-to-negotiate-soft-brexit
“…such as allowing chickens to be washed in chlorine.”
And yet the widely used disinfectant chlorine, when found in dirt samples taken from Syria by OPCW, provide evidence for BBC of a chemical weapons attack, rather than evidence of chlorine being used to make water safe to drink.
Which hand will the government play? The cherry picked list which they know will be rejected and have tried many times before? Or the one which does not cross any EU red lines?
@ Sharp Ears July 6, 2018 at 21:07
‘..Theresa May secures approval from cabinet to negotiate soft Brexit
PM proposes creation of ‘UK-EU free trade area’ and matching food standards…’
Sounds great to me – no GMO’s, chlorinated chicken, or hormone-filled beef, which we would probably have been inundated with in a ‘secret’ deal with the Yanks.
I’m beginning to take a shine to ‘Treason’ May; perhaps next we have BDS against I**ael, Saudi, Bahrain, US, UAE, Myanmar, Turkey, Jordan, Colombia etc., and a revoking of any sanctions against Russia, as well as an abject apology for making baseless accusations against the country; also, a commitment to reparations to Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc.
Sign up, ‘Treason’, and you’ll be back on my Christmas Card list!
I would point out that new housing developments are required to provide a certain % of the houses for social housing, and that these houses will be located on the same estate as the privately owned dwellings, often owned by Housing Associations, and rented to people who are on low incomes, benefits etc, rather like council housing. The fact that Rowley was living in a new house on a new estate does NOT mean he is necessarily the owner of it. He may be a tenant on housing benefit.
One of the reports I read said that he was a tenant… My question was, and still is… Who was the owner?
@ truthwillout July 7, 2018 at 00:52
I’m sorry, sir. That is classified information.
And now OPCW report that they found no sarin (but possible trace of chlorine as has been used by terrorists) as claimed by the same UK gov. along with French and US that bombed Douma back in april!
If the OPCW where to inspect your local swimming pool they would find evidence of chlorine. The presence of chlorine could be from any number of sources, most of them undoubtedly from domestic use as a disinfectant. The only proof of a chemical weapons attack involving chlorine would be if they found the means by which it was weaponised, e.g. a spent shell containing residues.
Spent shells must come along with white spots and stripes everywhere around it. We know chlorine is used for bleaching. You can’t get a used shell on an mint fresh textile bed cover.
Mind the bed is not broken unlike the concrete roof of the building.
Here is the text by OPCW
https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-issues-fact-finding-mission-reports-on-chemical-weapons-use-allegations-in-douma-syria-in-2018-and-in-al-hamadaniya-and-karm-al-tarrab-in-2016/
I find it extremely weird that biological samples were taken in a neighbouring country. They say ‘prioritised samples’ showed no nerve agents in alleged casualties.
As to explosives and chlorine, they are still establishing significance of the results.
Two questions from me:
1. Where did the symptoms of nerve agent poisoning on the victims come from?
2. What’s wrong with chlorine that it takes so much time to test its presence and quantity?
There’s no question that “dumpster-diving” and scrounging cigarette butts is an enduring phenomenon in malignant Western capitalist societies.
But this speculative emphasis on Charlie’s, and especially Dawn’s, predilection for such activities seems to be rising to the level of morbid fascination.
Despite my opening sentence, I’m not a Marxist ideologue. But if I were, I would characterize this as a bourgeois, or middle-class, horror that adds a compelling frisson to the guesswork about what really happened to this pair.
Be all that as it may, in the present context the assumption that some discarded or planted piece of “trash” is the cause of the couple’s alleged illness or affliction sets up all of the ancillary wild and unfounded claims that a true chemical “nerve agent” may transmute into a less-lethal toxin that produces symptoms attributed to both the Skripals and Charlie/Dawn.
This, in turn, seems to be a forced and spurious attempt to vindicate the utterly preposterous official insinuations that a “military-grade nerve agent” was deployed in the first place.
I repeat my standing incredulity and exasperation that persons who claim to be (appropriately) skeptical of the official narrative– the sole source of the disputed facts– will nevertheless earnestly refer to “the novichok” or even “the door handles”, etc., and now add in months-old discarded cigarette butts or tempting drug paraphernalia into the “what might have been” mix.
A bit of hyperbole if all can forgive.
An offer of a industrial and agriculture compliance does not add up to a hill of beans.
This is a hard brexit stance. A claim that we offered and were turned down therefore we have no choice but a no deal.
If we fall for this and don’t have a immediate general election, then we will see the country move to massive civil disobedience. As would be appropriate in a mature democracy.
We move a step closer to shitting or getting off the …
Time to choose folks.
There is a hint of a psy-op to the police investigation in Salisbury and Wiltshire. Compare the personal protective equipment worn by the police with the Chief Medical Officer’s advice to the public about what they should do if they have had contact with a novichok. The police are paraded in PPE that is extremely visually disconcerting. If you see someone in one of those elaborate neon suits your instinct is immediately that something has gone seriously wrong. But if you had spent yesterday on a bench that is now protected by a yellow octagonal tent with two ‘aliens’ tiptoeing around it, they say all you need do is take a shower and wipe your shoes off with a baby-wipe. The hypocisy of that medical advice alongside the visuals of the outlandish precautions being taken by the police, is not reassuring. If anything it is guaranteed to put the public more on edge.
If I lived in the area, and I saw them walking about in those suits, I’d bring them tea and cookies (or coffee, if they wish), and have someone take a video of it and place it on YouTube.
We’ve come to the ‘giddy’ stage of this operetta.
Great summarisation that, my thoughts too
Another pot of reheated mince from the UK government.
As well as collecting fag butts and dumpster diving, I am reliably informed that another activity that social-outcast drug addicts engage in is door-knob licking. Apparently they do it in the hope of getting a trace amount of flavouring from recently eaten fast-food. Worth bearing in mind when formulating cock-and-bull theories.
Well, then, that’s it! All that remains is for some alleged relative or associate– or even some relative of an alleged associate, or vice-versa, to confirm that Ms. Sturgess wasn’t at all shy about licking greasy doorknobs, or at least had the look of a doorknob-licker about her.
Mystery solved! I’m glad we got that sorted out.