The Amesbury Mystery 940

We are continually presented with experts by the mainstream media who will validate whatever miraculous property of “novichok” is needed to fit in with the government’s latest wild anti-Russian story. Tonight Newsnight wheeled out a chemical weapons expert to tell us that “novichok” is “extremely persistent” and therefore that used to attack the Skripals could still be lurking potent on a bush in a park.

Yet only three months ago we had this example of scores from the MSM giving the same message which was the government line at that time:
“Professor Robert Stockman, of the University of Nottingham, said traces of nerve agents did not linger. He added: ‘These agents react with water to degrade, including moisture in the air, and so in the UK they would have a very limited lifetime. This is presumably why the street in Salisbury was being hosed down as a precaution – it would effectively destroy the agent.'”

In fact, rain affecting the “novichok” on the door handle was given as the reason that the Skripals were not killed. But now the properties of the agent have to fit a new narrative, so they transmute again.

It keeps happening. Do you remember when Novichok was the most deadly of substances, many times more powerful than VX or Sarin, and causing death in seconds? But then, when that needed to be altered to fit the government’s Skripal story, they found scientists to explain that actually no, it was pretty slow acting, absorbed gradually through the skin, and not all that deadly.

Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.

According to the Daily Telegraph today, the unfortunate Charlie Rowley is a registered heroin addict, and if true Occam’s Razor would indicate that is a rather more likely reason for his present state than an inexplicably persistent weaponised nerve agent.

If it is however true that two separate attacks have been carried out with “novichok” a few miles either side of Porton Down, where “novichok” is synthesised and stored for “testing purposes”, what does Occam’s razor suggest is the source of the nerve agent? A question not one MSM journalist seems to have asked themselves tonight.

I am slightly puzzled by the picture the media are trying to paint of Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess as homeless, unemployed addicts. The Guardian and Sky News both state that they were unemployed, yet Charlie was living in a very new house in Muggleton Road, Amesbury, which is pretty expensive. According to Zoopla homes range up to £430,000 and the cheapest ones are £270,000. They are all new build, on a new estate, which is still under construction.

Both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess still have active facebook pages and one of Charlie’s handful of “Likes” is a mortgage broker, which is consistent with his brand new house. They don’t give mortgages to unemployed heroin addicts, and not many of those live in smart new “executive housing” estates. Both Charlie and Dawn appear from their facebook pages to be very well socialised, with Dawn having many friends in the teaching profession. Even if she has been homeless for a period as reported, she is plainly very much part of the community.

Naturally, there is no mention in all the reports today of MI6’s Pablo Miller, who remains the subject of a D notice. I wonder if he knows Rowley and Sturgess, living in the same community? It should be recalled that Salisbury may be a city, but its population is only 45,000.

The most important thing is of course that Charlie and Dawn recover. But tonight, even at this early stage, as with the entire Skripal saga, the message the security services are seeking to give out does not add up. Mark Urban’s piece for Newsnight tonight was simply disgusting; it did not even pretend to be more than a propaganda piece on behalf of the security services, who had told Urban (as he said) that Yulia Skripal’s phone “could have been” tapped by the Russians and they “might even” have listened to her conversations through the microphone in her telephone. That was the “new evidence” that the Russians were behind everything.

As a former British Ambassador I can tell you with certainty that indeed the Russians might have tapped Yulia, but GCHQ most definitely would have. It is, after all, their job, and billions of our taxes go into it. If tapping of phones is seriously presented as evidence of intent to murder, the British government must be very murderous indeed.

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940 thoughts on “The Amesbury Mystery

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  • Tom Smythe

    Justin Ling, who knows both Charlie Rowley and Dawn Sturgess, said the two people “used to go dumpster diving outside of charity shops, going through the stuff they used to chuck out. They would find stuff and get bits of jewelery to get some money. They could have been contaminated there.” He added that his friend [not named] has been to see Rowley and Sturgess, who were unconscious, with doctors saying the pair weren’t responding to treatment.

    It is the rare open dumpster in Salisbury that goes four months without needing to be emptied — and this is the mother of all one-off items. The police are not climbing into charity dumpsters themselves but rather have secured the garbage cans outside the two residences (and of course the rooms).

    It seems their working hypothesis is that, when the two left the blanket group at QEG for a chat, they came upon an expensive-looking phial or metal flask hidden in the bushes. Perhaps they poured the dodgy liquid out and took the phial home for a later sidewalk sale. Perhaps the less-affected Charles will have some memory of just where it was found.

    It would be a tremendous breakthrough if the police can recover a piece of the hit kit as so far every specific of the attack on the Skripals has had to have been invented.

  • simon geldoffs

    charley rowleigh and his dumpster diving friend dark is the dawn had only recently been upgraded to the 500 thousand pound
    spooky amesbury new build farm estate development.
    all part of ms mays hard drive getting the homeless heroin junkers into fine quality shelter with room for 2 car parkings.
    we must be proud in little britain that dumpsters swimmers are treated with such respect.
    shirley this is proofs enoughs that pink skinned mi5 spooks get homes as well as the brown fellas from syria and libya.
    ms may is protecting all the united colours and hues of engerlund england.
    would jerermey corbers have been so generous to buy the home and destroy the home of yulia pull it skripal no
    alas charlie and dark is the dawns brand new home and the estate including surrounding lands will have to be burned by the same army and police teams doing such a great fire starting jobs up northerners way
    andy burn ems ways
    amesbury must be burned down if we are to save it already

  • Tony_0pmoc

    I know my previous comment got deleted rather quickly, but I have never met her, and said almost nothing about her. She is not the girl from Stockton-on-Tees, so far as I know – who does all the voice overs – for your Satnav, the tube, and British Railways – but it maybe (unlikely to be her daughter) All I know is that her name is Rachel. I know quite a few Rachels, but none of the ones I know, are working professionally in the media (so far as I know). I don’t ask such questions. What does it matter what job (if any) you do?

    The point I was trying to make, is that hardly anyone I know, actually believes anything at the moment, about what The UK Government (or The CIA in control?) says and does.

    All of this media distraction Novichock V 2.0 etc – is obvioulsy all complete bollocks, to try and cover up, the fact that our UK Government and most of The Civil Servants are completely and utterley totally useless

    I don’t care whether you like it or not, but despite the false flag Jo Cox bollocks (I suspect she is still alive – cos she was definitely working for one of the Intelligence agencies, and they wouldn’t kill her cos she really is a nice girl, who also looks like one of my ex’s (how are the kid’s love – and your arsehole of a husband Brendan??? – I mean come on – are the rest of you unable to notice..the objectives of these bastards in control – and the techniques they use???

    How come you are all so slow??

    Do you actually believe all this bullshit you are being fed on a daily basis??

    These guys can be extremely good actors, except, they employ amateurs to pull their stunts, and they don’t do it very well. If you weren’t so brainwashed with propaganda you would notice.

    The fact of the matter, is that a majority of the people in the UK voted democracticaly to leave The EU.

    We want OUT

    We do not want to be half in and half out.

    We are leaving The Club EU, and we are not going to pay Billions of Pounds a Year to remain a member of a Club we do not want to be in.

    It is nothing against the 99% of European people who we get on fine with – It’s the Evil Bastards in Control of The EU, who are Controlled by The CIA.

    Now here is a good word for Donald, not that he has many fans

    “What Donald Trump is preparing” by Thierry Meyssan

    Come on Wake Up,


    Come on England.


      • Tony_0pmoc


        I could have written it better (edited it to one third the size), but its important to realise what the people in control have already done, and continue to do. They are not very nice. They literally destroy entire countries based on a pack of lies. The original point I was trying to make (which got deleted), is that much of the “news” is literally fabricated. If you believe it all, then fine – don’t go to Salisbury tomorrow.

        As regards to analysing events that have a significant effect on a population, do you honestly think that governments do not use such deceptive techniques – and all this “news” is true?

        I was actually trying to empathise, with some of the media people – voice over actresses – who are simply reading their lines. They are just doing a job and most of them do it very well.


    • Dolora33

      Donald Trump does have many fans. Here in the United States we voted for him and took back our country. The polls said he had a 3% chance of winning the election. Hillary had a 97% chance of winning. We all know how that turned out. The MSM here, the Deep State and others in power are against Trump but the people love him. He is the only politician that is keeping his word and doing all the things he said he would do on the campaign trail. Don’t believe the MSM over here. They are an arm of the Democrat party. The only news that is reliable here is Fox News. Most Americans love him and will vote him back in during the 2020 election.

  • CanSpeccy

    British Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, told Parliament on Thursday that it’s time for Russia to explain “exactly what has gone on,” since the Brits haven’t a clue.

    Are Thereason May and Her Ministers the silliest government in British history, or are they just the most contemptuous of the intelligence of the British people?

    • Doghouse

      “Are Thereason May and Her Ministers the silliest government in British history, or are they just the most contemptuous of the intelligence of the British people?”

      Definitely both. The two are not mutually exclusive, they are self embracing.

  • Sharp Ears

    The crowd at Chequers yesterday were driven off in their limos with full bellies. How nice for them. Don’t tell those using food banks.

    ‘To power them through the day the group enjoyed a buffet lunch of BBQ chicken thighs with a salad of wheat, beets, squash and feta, estate new potato salad, estate grown mixed leaves and a summer tomato salad with pomegranate dressing. For those still hungry they were served Chequers scones with clotted cream and estate strawberry jam, Graham’s sticky tea loaf and a fruit platter.’

    ..a dinner of whisky and treacle cured Scottish salmon smoked over whisky barrel chips and served on homemade sourdough.

    For the main course they had Oxfordshire beef fillet with crispy shin, baby leeks, turned estates potatoes with rich beef gravy.

    And for dessert there was marmalade bread and butter pudding with English custard and orange ice cream.’

    As well as the chosen, they had some SPADs there too.

    ‘Who’s who at Chequers:

    1. Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt – Remainer who has said he would vote for Brexit if there was another vote
    2. Brexit Secretary David Davis – Key Brexiteer
    3. Number 10 director of communications Robbie Gibb – Brexiteer
    4. Environment Secretary Michael Gove – Key Brexiteer
    5. International Trade Secretary Liam Fox – Key Brexiteer
    6. International Development Secretary Penny Mordaunt – Brexiteer
    7. Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson – Remainer
    8. Director of European policy and former director of budget at DExEU, Catherine Webb
    9. Special adviser Ed de Minckwitz – Remainer
    10. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson – Key Brexiteer
    11. Home Secretary Sajid Javid – Remainer
    12. Director of the Treasury’s Europe unit Jonathan Black
    13. HMRC second permanent secretary Jim Harra
    14. Education Secretary Damian Hinds – Remainer
    15. Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley – Remainer
    16. Chancellor Philip Hammond – Remainer
    17. Business, energy and industrial strategy minister Claire Perry – Remainer
    18. Immigration minister Caroline Nokes – Remainer×563/skynews-chequers-brexit_4355331.jpg?20180706201217

    La Kuenssberg commented on the proceedings from a distant field! Her former boss is at No 3 in the above list.

      • Sharp Ears

        A jumped up little twerp to my mind who jumped from the bankrupt Deutsche Bank to find his niche in Pugin’s Palace eight years ago. It was said he was paid £3m pa by Deutsche Bank as an MD. He is obviously good at self promotion.

    • SA

      What happened to diversity? No vegetarians in this lot? Over 10% of the population are vegetarians and Hindus do not eat beef.

    • Den Lille Abe

      Mr or Mrs Sharp Ears I do appreciate your comments, I just wonder how you have the time to do the fact checking! I am awe!
      But thanks for you posts, and to may others here on this blog, it reminds me that there indeed is decency among all nationalities, as our host (Mr. Craig Murray) is an example of.

    • N_

      And (drum roll!) the European Research Group has EIGHT people in the cabinet: (Michael Gove, David Davis, Liam Fox, Sajid Javid, David Gauke, Penny Mordaunt, Chris Grayling, Brandon Lewis) plus Andrea Leadsom who attends cabinet.

      Don’t pay much attention to any commentator who doesn’t look much further than JRM’s top hat.

      There was a report last night (I can’t find a link) that JRM had instructed his pals in the cabinet NOT to respond publicly to the latest May move yet, but to SEND HIM their responses.

      The experts who say May is safe for a while are talking crap. A cabinet collapse could be imminent, with JRM riding in on his white horse.

      It’s Saturday. At the moment the sea is calm. One or more of the Sunday papers will, I suspect, going to carry a corking story. It will be likely to feature one or more individuals in a big way, because that’s what stories do. There are several less starry memes it can relate to that would finish the May government off. For example, there is the stark choice “Brexit or peace in Ireland”.

      JRM is a cartoon brand. So was Trump. They’re both pals with Steve Bannon.

  • Ophelia Ball

    Two quick thoughts this morning:

    1. I feel betrayed over BREXIT

    2. So what? Who cares what the plebs think? Shut up and pay your taxes you tiresome little oik!”

  • johnf

    If the deal spun last night by the Theresa-ites is true – a soft Brexit – I cannot but see the re-erection of Farage and UKIP over the coming months – but this time they will take votes from the Tories and not Labour.

    • N_

      Whether it’s true or not, there will be a resurgence of the far right. Farage will probably play a role, perhaps not as leader but as some kind of figure. It may not take the form of UKIP. Milo Yiannopoulos can get headlines. So can Tommy Robinson. Count Dankula (I mistyped his title at first) is unlikely to be put at the front of the stage.

      What’s happening in the Leeds trial?

      Take your scenario. What would the attitude of top Tories in the gentlemen’s clubs be? Some of them will want to ride the tiger.

      Do you think the far right couldn’t take BACK the votes it lost to Labour in last year’s election?

      • MightyDrunken

        I expect a resurgence in the far right whatever happens. There is no sign that the government will tackle the feeling of powerlessness, housing, job security, wages etc. Unfortunately the far right don’t usually have the right answers, just scapegoats. For example immigrants did not cause the lowest amount of housebuilding since the 1920s nor the lack of investment in roads, schools, doctor’s surgeries… Immigration has caused about 50% of the population increase in the last few decades and 50% of that is from the EU (so 25% of the total).

        Considering the government could have reduced some of the EU immigration, almost all of the other 50% and actually invested in infrastructure to meet the needs of the people I feel blaming the EU is silly.

        The only hope away from this cycle is what happened after WWII where there was similar unrest. Make policies which benefit the people and not just the ruling class and big businesses,

  • quasi_verbatim

    Maestro May has pulled it off.

    A UK-EU free trade area and matching food standards will beard the Brexit dragon and pull its teeth, although there was no mention of frictionless trade in Novitsjok, which is disappointing.

    • N_

      Goodness, @quasi_verbatim, you’re quick! You haven’t even waited for the next event in the Chequers media cycle. Have you noticed Boris Johnson, David Davis, Michael Gove, Jacob Rees-Mogg, even David Cameron or Kenneth Clarke, say “Well done, Theresa! We’re all united behind you!” Have you heard them respond in any way?

      The announcement happened after the markets had closed. Tomorrow some newspapers will come out. In fact they will appear today. Best wait until you hear what they say before you conclude “Maestro May has pulled it off”.

    • giyane

      You need lightning speed internet to cut through all the ads on local papers.

      When will it dawn on yous that anyone whose done a crime and got unserved sentence dependant on good behaviour can be got to do anything by police or MI5. Unless they’ve got the huevas to stand up to the system and understand how it got them into trouble in the first place.

      How else do you think people like the Attorney General or Gavin Willingslave get to attend Chequers, where famously Thatcher was pretending to be brain dead so that Saville could get a stiffie?

      The Conservative Party, as predicted by Craig Murray, has wasted two whole years doing the same thing for Liam Fox and Boris Johnson, i.e. pretending to be brain dead so they can orgasm on free trade deals.
      The moment came and went, and all that was left of them was a couple of squirts of hand gel.

      Never mind the callousness towards the people, what about the gross incompetence of having this appalling argument in public , in front of Europe , and then screaming uncontrollably that Russia was to blame.
      Craig correctly predicted the melt-down, but even he couldn’t have foreseen the embarrassment of novichok on the world stage.

  • Den Lille Abe

    Having in the meantime become much more sober than usual, and in preparation to the WC Sweden and England, it dawned upon me while having a cuppa Java that the Continental Educational System must be so much better than than the mess that resides in Perfidious Albion. The deductive analysis that led me through to this conclusion, is long and very complicated and not for normal consumption, but fact of the matter is, or to put it short: We Continentals are immune to the rubbish that the MSM chooses to litter the airwaves with. No I do have a telly, primarily used to watch movies of old times like Casablanca, and old Clint Westerns and the like, I have not seen a television program (Except sport) in 15 years. So The MSM massive output is in reality a strip test whether you can reason or not, and in this regard I find that Continentals come out on the top. ( Now hear this: Some grammar Nazi will soon tell me that I cant spell or my syntax is all wrong; go and have some Novickok!!). A quick poll among the people I am acquainted with, even the rather daft ones, had the funny output that all except one, broke down in laughter when I asked about the Salisbury poisonings, and it was impossible to further investigate what their thougts were on who the perpetrator could be, I did try though, but when I said “Russians” the laughter became hysterical, and one pollster had to be calmed down with copious amounts of hand crafted beer and Islay 16 year malt (Which I had to endure, but science is science).
    Now this is getting a convoluted (I am 1/16 German) but the conclusion is: It is an assault on our intelligence, an attempt to make us Unthink (Tm unless Orwell used it) which did not happen here, we simply will not digest nonsense so blatant as this, yes we do digest nonsense (Macron ?), but not this blatant, is has to have more flavor and substance!
    The thinking part of the British Populace, where ever they are but here on this blog, to them I wish Good Luck in today’s WC match, may the best team win, as long as it is the Swedish 🙂
    There is a day tomorrow, and whether we win or loose, GB is still out (29-03-2019) with probably Novichok V 3.0 and no NHS and if all goes right an Scottish Indyref 2 looming.
    (I would love going to Scotland, but will not as long as Perfidious Albion is in Charge)

  • Sharp Ears

    Having just read Jonathan Cook’s piece ** on the Trump/Kushner/Netanyahu plan to relocate the Palestinians into the Sinai desert with the co-operation of Sisi, a sort of open air concentration camp where jobs would be created!, I was sickened to come across a debate in Westminster Hall entitled ‘US Israel Trade’.

    It was moved by Chris Green, Con Bolton W and strongly supported by Ellman, Harper, Morris, Crabb and several other Conservative Friends of Israel. Only Richard Burden and Andy Slaughter defended the Palestinians.

    The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Trade (Graham Stuart) responded to the ‘debate’. He records many donations, other income and visits abroad on his register He employs his sister as his commons office manager. Keeping it in the family.

    He has been an MP since 2005. I have never heard of him. Lobby fodder. He was an assistant whip for 2 years.

    It was like a long 90 minute commercial rather than a debate.

    **Sisi holds Key to Trump’s Sinai Plan for Palestinians
    Reports suggest Trump is about to unveil massive relief programme, but on condition Palestinians work in Egypt under an Israeli ‘Greater Gaza’ plan
    by Jonathan Cook / July 6th, 2018

    • Dave G

      Suggesting that Palestinians be moved into the Sinai desert is acceptable, but joking that Israel be moved to America nearly got a Labour MP thrown out of the party. Strange world.

    • Den Lille Abe

      Thanks sharp Ears
      I have always loved the notion of open concentration camps. It sounds humane does it not? Well I know, that you know I a regressivly sarcastic, But lets sum up:
      British in boer war doing “petite” genocide
      WWI Behaving horribly against the “Kraut”
      WWII Complicit in mass murder of prisoners of war, due to starvation and malnutrition.
      I have no knowledge of the crimes committed elsewhere except India , but they are to numerous to sum up.
      There is not much good to say

  • Mary Paul

    i assume now the Met police are back in control of the investigation in Salisbury, up-to-date information will disappear under a D notice. Any signs of that happening?

    • Ophelia Ball

      Oh Mary! Please do try to keep up!

      Amesbury is so “Thursday”, dontcha know???

      Yesterday was Brexit Day, today is World Cup Day, tomorrow will be “Evil Putin doped our Players Day”, and next week we have “Evil China stole our Jobs Day”, “Evil China stole our IP Day”, “Evil China has infected our computers Day” and then “Evil Trump has Landed! Day”.

      Now, be a good little poppet and get back to your “2 Minutes of Hate” session

      • Ophelia Ball

        “The horrible thing about the Two Minutes Hate was not that one was obliged to act a part, but that it was impossible to avoid joining in. Within thirty seconds any pretence was always unnecessary. A hideous ecstasy of fear and vindictiveness, a desire to kill, to torture, to smash faces in with a sledge hammer, seemed to flow through the whole group of people like an electric current, turning one even against one’s will into a grimacing, screaming lunatic. And yet the rage that one felt was an abstract, undirected emotion which could be switched from one object to another like the flame of a blowlamp”

        Orwell, 1984

      • Mary Paul

        what are you on about? I thought this was a thread started by Craig Murray to discuss events at Amesbury? is that no longer the case? Has Craig delegated this forum to you and asked you to close down discussions? I must have missed that .

          • Ophelia Ball

            This is the kind of thing I was highlighting:

            24 hours later the Circus has moved to a different town and, like the “blowlamp” Orwell referred to above, people’s attention is refocussed onto the next Big Thing, with yesterdays “Big Thing” (and all its attendant loose ends and inconsistencies) consigned to the Memory Hole and conveniently forgotten

            – Dr Stephen Davies writing in the Times that there were no nerve agent victims – forget him
            – Viktoria Skripal’s visa – forget her
            – DS Bailey – forget him
            – Palestinian civilians being massacred by the IDF – forget them
            – Julian Assange and the UN ruling that he is illegally detained – forget him

            the list goes on and on: we are all being manipulated, and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it, other than to individually reflect that perhaps it is us ourselves who are the Bad Guys, and ponder how we ever let ourselves become duped about our moral superiority and the ethical integrity of those in authority over us

            As George Bernard Shaw memorably remarked:
            “The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.”

          • Nick

            More apt for this blog perhaps – “The most useful piece of learning for the uses of life is to unlearn what is untrue” – Antisthenes

            Or, if Greek philosophy isn’t your thing, just go with Yoda’s – “You must unlearn what you have learned”

          • KEN KENN


            If you are going to focus on philosophy then Ron Atkinson’s words come to mind…..
            ” We are now in the corridor of uncertainty ”

            Sums it all up beautifully.

            Jumpers for goalpost etc etc.

          • MightyDrunken

            Opheila, how can I forgot those things?

            I didn’t see them in the MSM to begin with…

      • N_

        Ah yes, I was forgetting the England-Sweden match today. There could be a big audience for the first announcement of, ooh, say a no confidence motion in the Tory leader.

    • pete

      Re Mary Paul 08.44

      I admire your persistence in trying to build a chronological narrative of events mentioned in Craig’s original post. This can only help our understanding. As you will have seen, the comments area rarely keeps to the topic and is occasionally subverted by off the wall random comments that are often genuinely mystifying and sometimes funny. That has not deterred me from obsessively reading most of them, I hope it will not deter you.

  • Pyotr Grozny

    From the BBC

    “Theresa May is expected to discuss the use of novichok in the UK with Donald Trump when the two meet on Friday during the president’s UK visit. She will try to persuade him to raise the matter with Vladimir Putin at their Helsinki summit on 16 July,”

    Let’s hope he does

    • Den Lille Abe

      I think that even the Donald has seen through the Novichok incident. He is probably more keen to get some kind of understanding with Russia, though not any economic giant at all, is a militarily giant, because of : Nukes. Russia is the only country that can obliterate the US in 30 minutes. No other country can do that.
      Perfidious has got say in that. Ever. And certainly not now. UK = Airstrip One. The UK is completely insignificant, militarily, economically and politically, and it has done it herself. Hihi
      ” From Empire to Third World Country in 100 Years” a new book available on Amazon, written by Perfidious Albion, a rather dull an somber book describing the decline of an empire because of rot within. Despite extremely talented parts of its populace within science, arts, humaniora and political thinking, it still managed to hit the bottom and become irrelevant.
      The quickest decline ever!!

      So PA is getting into the place it belongs 🙂 ( You can’t rely on what I write, I still have a grudge, because of them, terror bombing of Copenhagen in 1807, where I lost two ancestors, and Dresden 1945, where two more were incinerated, even though they were War Prisoners)
      So it is with a boatload of glee, I watch the slow destruction of PA, from both inside and outside, and tremendous satisfaction I see PA sink into irrelevance where it belongs.
      And before you start on your blah-blah, remember Nuremberg 1946-1948 : ” You are are guilty as a Nation, as a People……”
      The chickens come home too roost.

      • Pyotr Grozny

        If DT has seen through Novichok he can threaten to blow the gaff on it. That would put TM in a very weak position.

      • Andyoldlabour

        I am no flag waving patriot who stands up and sings the national anthem, but you would do well to avoid rewriting history.
        It was Hitler who started WW2 and he was very popular amonst the majority of Germans, young and old. He had already practiced his slaughter on Guernica before unleashing Blitzkrieg on the rest of Europe. Hitler aided by millions of Germans carried out atrocity after atrocity, and was responsible for the slaughter of around 30 million people, including 20 million in Russia and 6 – 8 million in the concentration camps.
        So please be quiet about Dresden, it wouldn’t have happened if UK cities hadn’t been blitzed.

        • N_

          About 100 times more people were killed in Dresden than in Coventry. And the British poshboy elite knew that Coventry was going to be bombed and kept quiet about it. If you’re not a nationalist flag-waving patriot, best to bin the idea that the exploited and the dirty scumbags who exploit them have a share interest against the exploited and exploiters abroad.

          Why do you call Britain “the UK”? Are you a monarchist?

          • Andyoldlabour

            Around 25,000 people were killed in the Dresden bombing in 1945, against around 23,000 victims of the blitz in London from 1940-41.
            The firestorms started by US bombing raids on Tokyo resilted in around 100,000 deaths and around 1,000,000 displaced persons.
            I regard the use of the atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima as war crimes.
            I don’t believe in the monarchy, I think they are a waste of time.
            War is horrible, and I was totally against our attacks/invasions on Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria, but when you are attacked by a country which has steadily built up its military might, with the sole purpose of dominating an entire continent – Europe, then you have to fight back.

        • bj

          Be quiet about Dresden!?

          Seriously, be quiet about a major war crime? (And why I might add.)

          Man, that taints you, I am sorry to say, because I often agreed with you in other comments.

          • Ort

            I don’t know the OP, but I agree with you.

            Attempting to exorcise the grim specter of a crime against humanity by bellowing, “Shut up about that! Besides, they started it!” is, sadly, common enough– but not what one would call thoughtful or profound.

      • N_

        From Empire to Third World Country in 100 Years” a new book available on Amazon, written by Perfidious Albion, a rather dull an somber book describing the decline of an empire because of rot within.

        Got a link?

        As many of my fellow leftwingers have observed before me, the British ruling class treats Britain as if it were part of its empire, and most people in Britain as if they were barbarian “natives”. What do you expect, given the segregation in the schooling system?

    • Brendan

      If Trump is getting any useful briefings from his intelligence agencies, he will respond to May’s novichok comments by asking questions like:
      “Didn’t Skripal have very close connections to some MI6 people who tried to use a dodgy dossier to stop me from becoming president?”

    • bj

      Let’s hope he does

      We should be holding a contest here of a, say 100 or 200 word script of that conversation between Trump and Putin on Novichok.

  • Kat

    My theory is simple…

    ~ they will not survive (unlike the skripals)
    ~ the investigation will find a money trail back to a russian oligarch with close links to putin/kremlin, and
    ~ finally it will be revealed they were the perpetrators of the skripal attack, killed by leftover novichok they forgot to get rid of

    Despite social media profiles, my bet is they are little more than fake identities for MI5/6/CIA/mossad agents.

    • Mary Paul

      I think there may be some mileage in Tatanya’s surmise that there could be Ukrainian involvement to discredit Russia in all this. I am thinking of that business recently where they faked a journalist’s death in an anti-Rrussian sting. Meanwhile anyone have any recent updates from Salisbury or Amesbury?

      • Patrick Mahony

        Who was hired by the FA to get FIFA?
        Who was hired by Hillary etc to get Trump?
        Whose wife died in similar circumstances to Sergei’s son?
        What city do they live in and does their company operate from?

      • Tatyana

        Mary Paul, by the way, while I was watching that ukrainian journalist case, I found out very telling information – money gathered from people for charity, for poor ukrainian children wounded during attacks in Donbass – they buy weapons for this charity money. And be sure, the founder of the charity lives in London. I just don’t know who can make this info go public, it involves knolege of russian and ukrainian languages to read from screenshots.

      • Igor P.P.

        Ukraine is too dependent on the West to dare playing shoddy games on its territory, let alone put lives in danger.

  • Anon1

    Some good news this morning in the world of terrorism and environmental issues in that Somali terror group al-Shabab has banned single use plastic bags from all areas which it controls.

    If only Hamas would follow suit. The untold cost of its recent chimp out in Gaza is billions of dollars of damage to the environment in the form of wildfires from burning balloons and kites, which have destroyed tens of thousands of acres of farmland, obliterated precious wildlife sanctuaries and incinerated the rare and specialised fauna of the region, toxic air pollution resulting from the burning of thousands of tyres and an environment littered with plastic detritus that will pollute the environment for centuries to come.

    • Anon1

      This makes the proposed deportation of the Gazans to Egyption Sinai all the more attractive as virtually all the wildlife and habitat of any value has already been destroyed there. They can graze goats on what remains of the flora until the place becomes a literal desert.

      By contrast, in Israel you can see an abundance of wildlife, not just in the avian fauna, for which Israel provides a key migration route, but in the mammalian fauna especially. It is not uncommon – in fact it is very easy – to see gazelles, ibex, hyenas, jackals and all manner of wildlife in Israel that has been obliterated elsewhere in the region, because Israel has solid environmental laws and protections in place whereas in neighbouring countries wildlife is simply wiped out on sight.

    • Dave G

      Sounds like one of Mark Regev’s propaganda pieces. Like Israel destroying whole Palestinian neighbourhoods is good for the environment.

    • N_

      Shut down the settler state, ban its would-be revivers from organising and propagandising, hand over its assets to its victims as reparations, and let them fix any environmental issues.

      I could easily envisage the Znazi regime cloaking itself in “planet saving” “we love wildlife” garb. No lie is too shameful.

    • bj

      Sez an apologist of the murderer fascists’ apartheid state of Israel, its corrupt traveling salesman always looking for a monetary and military handout from its big daddies the US and SA.

    • adams

      Unfortunately Anon1 the Palestinians still need access to plastic bags to be able to carry their children’s body parts home from the peaceful protests they attend.

      And the environmental damage you’re ”concerned” about above has a minute effect on the planet in comparison to the damage the chemical weapons the IDF routinely use on said children do. Not to mention the nukes and the damage 40 years of unrestricted and undeclared testing has done to the region.

      If you are actually concerned about the environment Anon1 (we have our doubts) join craig the next time he campaigns for Israel to finally recognize its international obligations in relation to its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. You wouldn’t want people thinking you are a fraud.

      As for the Palestinians being removed from their land to Egypt, I have a suggestion you will most definitely agree with you democracy loving thing you; A democratic referendum, a vote, held between Egypt, Israel and Palestine asking the citizens a simple question

      – Should Palestinians be relocated to Sinai or should Israeli’s be relocated to Texas?

      Democracy Anon1. You support that, don’t you? Lets make it happen.

      Don;t worry if you’re scratching your head for a response Anon1, I don’t expect a logical or rational one from such an appalling extremist.

      A question for all; Could supporters of the IDF be categorized as child abuse enablers when one exams the IDF’s systematic treatment of children? What say you Anon1? Are you a child abuse enabler?

  • Bob

    Amesbury seems to have done its job as a distraction but the original questions still remain.

    And the simplest ones to answer are the ones that shouldn’t have existed in the first place.

    When I say simple I mean ones with a very straight forward answer that SHOULD have no reason not to have been answered immediately they were raised. The only reason that I can think of for concealing the answers is they conflict with the official narrative;

    10 random questions from may. Its the fact that they remain questions that indicates cover up:

    1) Why wasn’t Dr Steven Davies’ statement to the Times immediately “corrected” / withdrawn / clarified further?

    2) Who were the people in the cctv footage (her: blonde hair / red bay) and why have the police shown no sign of interest in them?

    3) Why hasn’t the council CCTV of the roads and public places where the Skripals were known to have passed by been released?

    4) Why has Sergei and Yulia been refused telephone access to his mum / her gran?

    5) Why weren’t the numerous reports of Yulia being airlifted to hospital corrected immediately to stem public fears that the aircraft may have been contaminated when it attended a PR gig at a junior school the following day? And why when it took off did it fly North East to the London Road / Cemetery area, spend time there before heading South for the Hospital and land with no patient on board?

    6) Why the contradicting reports of the initial moments at the bench? (the council cctv above Market Walk would clear up the facts)
    Reports say DI Bailey was first on the scene, others say a concerned members of the public telephoned the emergency services at 4:15 and within 60 seconds paramedics were arriving, others say police officers were on the scene before the 4:15 phone call (why didn’t they radiio for assistance?). A member of the public (a Doctor) was said to be giving first aid, how does this fit in with the police presence the 4:15 telephone call and 4:16 first arrival of paramedic then another at 4:17 and an ambulance vehicle at 4:18?

    7) Freya Church says the people in the cctv (her blonde hair / red bag) were “100% definitely the people on the bench, Olly Field confirmed the female was a “blonde bird”. Is this correct? We now know Yulia had reddish brown hair that day?

    8) Why wasn’t special provision made for the cousin / niece to visit? Why did Yulia know her cousin would not be allowed to visit? Why is consular access still refused?

    9) How did Porton Down identify the particular strain of Novichok with such speed?

    10) Why haven’t we seen Sergei?

    There are too many anomalies to list but until they are all answered then we are right to mistrust the police and government and know for certain that they are in it up to their necks and have no control of what they created.

    • truthwillout

      I think it may have been intended as a distraction, Bob, but I think that has not worked. More people than ever are now doubting the original story.

    • Patrick Mahony

      The helicopter! It was airborne at 16.19 four minutes after the first 999 call. I took a screenshot from their website before it was deleted.
      The patient was taken by land to hospital.
      Also it landed at Central Car Park adjacent to Sainsbury’s (but not rooftop where Sergei’s car was) 4 minutes walk North of the bench. Oddly this car park seems to be conveniently empty enough of cars to land a chopper…

      • Bob

        The air ambulance was called at 4:19 it didn’t take off from Distillery Farm until 4:30, it then flew in the wrong direction SW for 15km where it paused and circled the Flying Monk Brewery before correcting its course by 90 Deg and flew slowly SE towards Salisbury taking over half an hour to travel a distance that should have taken 12 and a half minutes.

        The rest of the flying until landing at the hospital is as I described

        • Patrick Mahony

          Where did you get this information from? Not doubting you, but if 16.19 was shout time, why was it deleted from their website?
          I have Flightrader 24 they didn’t have what you have, just a load of gibberish.

        • Patrick Mahony

          Wilts Air Ambulance is based at Police HQ Devizes not “Distillery Farm”.
          If your comment is correct re time and direction it went NW to Buckley Barracks/RAF Hullavington (Flying Monk next door) where curiously an army medical supply regiment is based. Completely 180° opposite direction to Salisbury (from Devizes).
          The previous call-out prior to Skripals was 28 February 09.34 oddly to Salisbury (patient not breathing) again taken by land ambulance to Salisbury General.
          I have all the screen shots.

        • Patrick Mahony

          I found that, thanks. But to me it is more questions than answers. Is it credible an air ambulance familiar with the area would fly in completely the wrong direction for 16 miles? Take 40 miles to get back where it started.
          If it was stooging around to waste time that would mean the plan was for it to arrive too late to be any use. So either the Skripals were supposed to die OR they were not supposed to be airlifted to a hospital other than Salisbury .
          The only other alternative is whoever came up with the flight track has the date format mixed up and it is 3rd April not 4th March.

    • KEN KENN


      All good points but there are now five people whoa re not dead.

      Considering the purity of this alleged Novichok ( no longer a type developed by Russia?)
      then it’s a bit piss weak as far as ” deadly” nerve agents go.

      The proof of the pudding is in the conatmination.

      The score so far: two dead Guinea Pigs and an English cat.

      Apparently the Russian cat escaped and is unavailable for interviews.

  • Richard Tindall

    If Novichoc is as lethal as they say the assassins would have to be pretty competent in handling it. I can’t imagine it being kept in an old coke bottle and some tipped onto door handles without the killers being contaminated. All a great mystery.
    If it was a British government attempt to discredit Russia , why not just shoot them?
    Why discredit Russia? Their money is keeping a lot of banks and property investment companies in business , all Tories I should think.

    • truthwillout

      Good question. Perhaps they want Crimea? If we’re going back to times of empire why not go back to the 1850s?

    • Pyotr Grozny

      The point about novichok like polonium 90 is that it endangers Brits. We don’t like it. Putin knows this, therefore hecwouldn’t have done it.

    • Igor P.P.

      Apparetly the main aim was not to simply discredit Russia, but to build public support for a military confrontation with it. And do it urgently, hence so many inconsistencies in the goverment versions of events. Skripals were poisoned just before most recent missile attack on Syria, when Russia warned it would strike NATO launchers if lives of its citizens are endangered. The pro-war faction ultimately lost the argument and the “strike” turned out to be harmless. But if you read what May was saying in the immediate aftermath of the poisoning, you will find more support for this theory.

    • Michael McNulty

      I think the orders to aggravate Russia come from the US and Israel because of Russia’s aid to Syria. The US is too spineless to use its own troops and uses terrorists; Israel is too spineless to admit they call the shots and lets everyone think the US is solely responsible for all that murder; and the Tories are too spineless to say no to either rogue regime and like all cowards get tough with the weakest.

      It’s time to start lynching these bastards.

    • Vivian O'Blivion

      Sad but true. It unlawful for a dog not to have a collar that displays its owners address. An innovation from 1992, in the age of the microchip. My dogs don’t have collars. Personal choice and safety concerns. I have retrieved my dogs from “police custody” on more that one occasion and the troops on the front line couldn’t give a fuck about the lack of collars. Parliaments (Westminster and Holyrood) pass legislation limiting personal choice just to look busy. There used to be a protocol under the old Scottish parliament that if a law was not used after a certain number of years it could quickly be struck from the legislative canon.

  • Ross

    a comment I found on the salisbury journal?
    Adrian884th July 9:35 pm
    SwindonFire RDS @SwindonFireRDS tweeted at 7:48AM – 1 July 2018:

    77 mile round trip for our Operational Support Unit last night to Amesbury. Thankfully the incident wasnt serious and our decontamination shower wasnt required.

    The tweet included two photographs and additional text description as to the non-serious nature of this incident “thought to have been a drug-related medical episode”.

    This morning, right after Lee Hannon @HannonTV flagged the tweet @ and retweeted it – Swindon Fire RDS deleted their tweet. It’s been screencapped – thankfully.

  • George

    CIA are behind the skipals.
    Christopher Steele has been hidden away in Cyprus. Eventually he will be dead if not already.
    The loose ends around russia gate need to be cleaned up.

  • Mary Paul

    Well it looks like the heavy hand of the Met Police and/or a D notice have now descended on Amesbury. Still we found out quite a lot while Wiltshire Police was in charge.

    • Igor P.P.

      Thanks, Mary. Interesting that Dawn fell ill as early as 10:15am. Being unemployed and troubled she’s unlikely to be an early riser, and there is no mention of her leaving the house that morning. Hence she came into contact with the poisoned object in the house or it is a very slow acting substance, unlike Novichok. The police has no doubt searched the house thoroughly but has not found the object. Was it food, drink or contaminated drugs that they consumed completely? A perfect carrier, if you think about it.

      • MightyDrunken

        I noticed that too, both Dawn and Charlie fell ill about 8 hours apart and both were at home. It seems unlikely that the poison would take so long to take effect that their exposure occurred the previous day. Therefore it suggests whatever made them ill happened in the house or was not a nerve agent.

  • Nick

    I had a question?
    So I searched for Muggleton Road, Amesbury SP4
    Google Maps: Returns > Does not exist (this has recently been updated/changed)
    Bing Maps: Returns > “We couldn’t find any matches for”
    Zoopla: No sales to date and external images ‘appear’ to be 3D images (as in not real)
    Bloor Homes (The estate developer): Directed to Princess Way

    That’s odd? So I thought again:

    Perhaps TPTB changed the street name to protect the scene/event/act and if so they chose an apt name, Muggleton which should we question further might be divided into ‘Mugggle’ and ‘ton’. ‘Ton’ I believe is an archaic shortened version of ’town’ so we get Muggle-town, the word ‘Muggle’ is popularised in H. Potter books/films and appears to be an insult to to describe those outside the group who cannot see.

    Should this be the case, the joke was not meant for us but directed at us.
    Keep on keeping on and good luck.

      • Mary Paul

        Sorry should have said presumably no prices because it is a new development. Like all such developments developers have to make some units available to council for use as social housing. Charlie Rowlie seems to have been allocated a flat in the development I assume by the council. Good luck to the developers in showing prospective buyers found this weekend,!

    • MightyDrunken

      I noticed that neither Google or Bing recognised the road name or postcode. I believe it is purely because the housing estate is very recent. These online maps are not updated very regularly. I tried other road names and postcodes that I knew to be in the last 6 months and they were not recognised either.

  • Jo

    So….police have not yet announced finding what they think they should be looking for:does this imply…both hospital incumbents are unconscious or put into a coma…too badly affected to remember …memory wiped by ” the chemical.”..too out of it to remember at that time what they found and where…. or there is not something to be found….otherwise surely the police would just ask what they did and where …surely?

    • Tom Smythe

      Neither is conscious at this point. Relatives have visited; the two are behind glass windows in separate areas, with drs saying they are not responding to treatment. Dawn especially is doing poorly. She has been hospitalized many times previously for alcohol and drug related conditions, received a larger dose of poison, may have hit her head falling and may have had a heart attack.

      Neither can be questioned at this time and it seems unlikely they will ever be able to recall pre-trauma details. For that reason, the police have already retraced their route with friend Sam Hobson who was with them most of the time.

      The Sun has been told the exposure route was through the skin, rather than inhaled, injected or ingested. Skin is the slowest of these routes for most organophosphates.

      It seems the working hypothesis is that, when the two left the blanket group at QEG for a chat, they came upon an interesting phial or flask discarded in the bushes. Perhaps they just handed it back and forth before discarding, or poured the dodgy liquid out, contaminating the exterior (if it wasn’t already) taking the phial home for a later sidewalk sale, with Dawn carrying it back to her hostel and getting more skin exposure and Charles handling it some time later. They were both experienced scavengers; Charles often fixed items prior to sale.

      In this scenario, the tainted object from the hit kit is either in her room, in the hostel garbage can (immediately secured), at Charles’ place, or still in Lizzie Gardens. They should have found the object by now if they were ever to find it — papers are saying they do have a quick portable test, presumably a colorimetric AChE inhibition assay.

      Police were searching the children’s play area etc yesterday with a drone camera. Photos of guys in hazmet suits, bare-handed without face masks, reminded me of the Skripal house investigation, as did Wiltshire police removed from the case, probe to take many months (ie you’ll never hear from it again), more trawling through 1,300 hours of extraneous cctv footage, more wash hands and do laundry, use baby wipes on jewelry.

      One Salisbury resident was quick to say people here regularly wash their hands and clothes without govt instruction, so the advice seems worthless. Indeed but I side here with the hapless public health officials who have no better options but have to be on record with something in the event more cases surface.

  • Steve M

    If Russia beat Croatia then surely Theresa May won’t turn down the opportunity to go to the match and personally accuse Putin of novichok poisoning whilst 22 blokes run after a piece of leather in front of them, and the Head of FIFA sitting between them?

  • Iain Stewart

    “Scientists are an interesting bunch. More than willing to ascribe whatever properties fit the government’s ever more implausible stories, in exchange for an MSM appearance fee, 5 minutes of fame and the fond hope of a research grant.”

    That was a sweeping conclusion based on an unscientific analysis of limited observation. Are ex-diplomats an interesting bunch too?

    • Tom Smythe

      Holy toledo … 20 minutes ago at Salisbury Journal: if this holds up, they have located a contaminated article, probably at the Amesbury residences.

      A POLICE officer has been rushed into hospital for suspected novichok exposure. Swindon’s Great Western Hospital’s accident and emergency departent is now on lockdown with no patients allowed to leave or enter. Ambulances are being re-routed away from the hospital. More as we have it.

      Two policemen are stationed outside of the Accident and Emergency department of Great Western Hospital in Swindon [about 20 miles north of Amesb ury on the A238]. Parts of the hospital are on lockdown. Wiltshire Police are aware of the incident and are not commenting at this time. The Advertiser understands the patient, believed to be a police officer, has been moved to Salisbury District Hospital.

      Staff wearing green hazardous waste suits have been seen emerging from a rear entrance to the hospital’s emergency department. At around 8.10pm [Sat pm] they came out doors marked ambulance staff only and removed the green suits.

      Police have been stationed outside the Emergency Department. Officers have been joined by security staff from the Great Western Hospital. It’s understood ambulances are now being re-routed to other hospitals while doctors await blood results.

      Met Police officers are believed to have been going door to door at houses and businesses around Queen Elizabeth Gardens in Salisbury asking for CCTV. Detectives hope they will be able to use CCTV from the park [but is this kept for four months?] to identify the assassin [more likely to follow movements of Charlie and Dawn on Friday].

      A bus depot in Salisbury is being guarded by police tonight, as it’s announced that two people from Amesbury are critically ill after coming into contact with nerve agent. It’s understood the pair travelled on a bus between Salisbury and Amesbury. It’s highly likely that buses in south Wiltshire will be severely affected by this development in the case.

      • Mary Paul

        it is a surprise if the police etc have taken a week to find it at their addresses. Maybe it was in the park? And are we really sure Rowlie and Sturgess just found the original receptacle and got poisoned by surviving novichok agent/contaminated container? I can think of other scenarios.

      • Igor P.P.

        The story appears to have changed. It now implies that the officer’s poisoning is merely a suspiction:

        A POLICE officer has been rushed into hospital for suspected Novichok exposure.
        Swindon’s Great Western Hospital’s accident and emergency departent is now on lockdown with no patients allowed to leave or enter. Ambulances are being re-routed away from the hospital and the patient is now being moved to Salisbury. Staff wearing green hazardous waste suits have been seen emerging from a rear entrance to the hospital’s emergency department. Members of staff can be seen emerging from a rear entrance to the emergency department dressed in green haz-mat suits. The plastic suits are designed to protect those wearing them from harmful chemicals and other substances.

        At around 8.10pm they came out doors marked ambulance staff only and removed the green suits. A Salisbury District Hospital spokesperson said: “A Police Officer attended Great Western Hospital this evening for medical advice in connection with the ongoing incident in Amesbury. There is nothing to suggest there is any wider risk to anyone at the hospital. “The individual is now being taken to Salisbury District Hospital which has the ability to carry out the appropriate specialist tests. Salisbury District Hospital has seen a number of members of the public who have come to the hospital with health concerns since this incident started and none have required any treatment.

        “We would like to reiterate the advice from Public Health England that the risk to the wider public remains low.”
        More as we have it.

        • Dave Lawton

          Igor P.P.
          July 7, 2018 at 22:28

          “The story appears to have changed. It now implies that the officer’s poisoning is merely a suspiction:
          A POLICE officer has been rushed into hospital for suspected Novichok exposure.”

          It could be psychosomatic.I have seen persons exhibit the symptoms radiation poisoning which was psychosomatic when they past within a few meters of radioactive sources yet the sources were safe.The power of the mind is fantastic.

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