In one of the series of blatant lies the USA has told to justify the assassination of Soleimani, Mike Pompeo said that Soleimani was killed because he was planning “Imminent attacks” on US citizens. It is a careful choice of word. Pompeo is specifically referring to the Bethlehem Doctrine of Pre-Emptive Self Defence.
Developed by Daniel Bethlehem when Legal Adviser to first Netanyahu’s government and then Blair’s, the Bethlehem Doctrine is that states have a right of “pre-emptive self-defence” against “imminent” attack. That is something most people, and most international law experts and judges, would accept. Including me.
What very few people, and almost no international lawyers, accept is the key to the Bethlehem Doctrine – that here “Imminent” – the word used so carefully by Pompeo – does not need to have its normal meanings of either “soon” or “about to happen”. An attack may be deemed “imminent”, according to the Bethlehem Doctrine, even if you know no details of it or when it might occur. So you may be assassinated by a drone or bomb strike – and the doctrine was specifically developed to justify such strikes – because of “intelligence” you are engaged in a plot, when that intelligence neither says what the plot is nor when it might occur. Or even more tenuous, because there is intelligence you have engaged in a plot before, so it is reasonable to kill you in case you do so again.
I am not inventing the Bethlehem Doctrine. It has been the formal legal justification for drone strikes and targeted assassinations by the Israeli, US and UK governments for a decade. Here it is in academic paper form, published by Bethlehem after he left government service (the form in which it is adopted by the US, UK and Israeli Governments is classified information).
So when Pompeo says attacks by Soleimani were “imminent” he is not using the word in the normal sense in the English language. It is no use asking him what, where or when these “imminent” attacks were planned to be. He is referencing the Bethlehem Doctrine under which you can kill people on the basis of a feeling that they may have been about to do something.
The idea that killing an individual who you have received information is going to attack you, but you do not know when, where or how, can be justified as self-defence, has not gained widespread acceptance – or indeed virtually any acceptance – in legal circles outside the ranks of the most extreme devoted neo-conservatives and zionists. Daniel Bethlehem became the FCO’s Chief Legal Adviser, brought in by Jack Straw, precisely because every single one of the FCO’s existing Legal Advisers believed the Iraq War to be illegal. In 2004, when the House of Commons was considering the legality of the war on Iraq, Bethlehem produced a remarkable paper for consideration which said that it was legal because the courts and existing law were wrong, a defence which has seldom succeeded in court.
(b)
following this line, I am also of the view that the wider principles of the law on self-defence also require closer scrutiny. I am not persuaded that the approach of doctrinal purity reflected in the Judgments of the International Court of Justice in this area provide a helpful edifice on which a coherent legal regime, able to address the exigencies of contemporary international life and discourage resort to unilateral action, is easily crafted;
The key was that the concept of “imminent” was to change:
The concept of what constitutes an “imminent” armed attack will develop to meet new circumstances and new threats
In the absence of a respectable international lawyer willing to argue this kind of tosh, Blair brought in Bethlehem as Chief Legal Adviser, the man who advised Netanyahu on Israel’s security wall and who was willing to say that attacking Iraq was legal on the basis of Saddam’s “imminent threat” to the UK, which proved to be non-existent. It says everything about Bethlehem’s eagerness for killing that the formulation of the Bethlehem Doctrine on extrajudicial execution by drone came after the Iraq War, and he still gave not one second’s thought to the fact that the intelligence on the “imminent threat” can be wrong. Assassinating people on the basis of faulty intelligence is not addressed by Bethlehem in setting out his doctrine. The bloodlust is strong in this one.
There are literally scores of academic articles, in every respected journal of international law, taking down the Bethlehem Doctrine for its obvious absurdities and revolting special pleading. My favourite is this one by Bethlehem’s predecessor as the FCO Chief Legal Adviser, Sir Michael Wood and his ex-Deputy Elizabeth Wilmshurst.
I addressed the Bethlehem Doctrine as part of my contribution to a book reflecting on Chomsky‘s essay “On the Responsibility of Intellectuals”
In the UK recently, the Attorney
General gave a speech in defence of the UK’s drone policy, the assassination
of people – including British nationals – abroad. This execution
without a hearing is based on several criteria, he reassured us. His
speech was repeated slavishly in the British media. In fact, the Guardian
newspaper simply republished the government press release absolutely
verbatim, and stuck a reporter’s byline at the top.
The media have no interest in a critical appraisal of the process
by which the British government regularly executes without trial. Yet
in fact it is extremely interesting. The genesis of the policy lay in the
appointment of Daniel Bethlehem as the Foreign and Commonwealth
Office’s Chief Legal Adviser. Jack Straw made the appointment, and for
the first time ever it was external, and not from the Foreign Office’s own
large team of world-renowned international lawyers. The reason for that
is not in dispute. Every single one of the FCO’s legal advisers had advised
that the invasion of Iraq was illegal, and Straw wished to find a new head
of the department more in tune with the neo-conservative world view.
Straw went to extremes. He appointed Daniel Bethlehem, the legal
‘expert’ who provided the legal advice to Benjamin Netanyahu on the
‘legality’ of building the great wall hemming in the Palestinians away
from their land and water resources. Bethlehem was an enthusiastic
proponent of the invasion of Iraq. He was also the most enthusiastic
proponent in the world of drone strikes.
Bethlehem provided an opinion on the legality of drone strikes
which is, to say the least, controversial. To give one example, Bethlehem
accepts that established principles of international law dictate that
lethal force may be used only to prevent an attack which is ‘imminent’.
Bethlehem argues that for an attack to be ‘imminent’ does not require it
to be ‘soon’. Indeed you can kill to avert an ‘imminent attack’ even if you
have no information on when and where it will be. You can instead rely
on your target’s ‘pattern of behaviour’; that is, if he has attacked before,
it is reasonable to assume he will attack again and that such an attack is
‘imminent’.
There is a much deeper problem: that the evidence against the
target is often extremely dubious. Yet even allowing the evidence to
be perfect, it is beyond me that the state can kill in such circumstances
without it being considered a death penalty imposed without trial for
past crimes, rather than to frustrate another ‘imminent’ one.
You would think that background would make an interesting
story. Yet the entire ‘serious’ British media published the government
line, without a single journalist, not one, writing about the fact that
Bethlehem’s proposed definition of ‘imminent’ has been widely rejected
by the international law community. The public knows none of this. They
just ‘know’ that drone strikes are keeping us safe from deadly attack by
terrorists, because the government says so, and nobody has attempted to
give them other information
Remember, this is not just academic argument, the Bethlehem Doctrine is the formal policy position on assassination of Israel, the US and UK governments. So that is lie one. When Pompeo says Soleimani was planning “imminent” attacks, he is using the Bethlehem definition under which “imminent” is a “concept” which means neither “soon” nor “definitely going to happen”. To twist a word that far from its normal English usage is to lie. To do so to justify killing people is obscene. That is why, if I finish up in the bottom-most pit of hell, the worst thing about the experience will be the company of Daniel Bethlehem.
Let us now move on to the next lie, which is being widely repeated, this time originated by Donald Trump, that Soleimani was responsible for the “deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of Americans”. This lie has been parroted by everybody, Republicans and Democrats alike.
Really? Who were they? When and where? While the Bethlehem Doctrine allows you to kill somebody because they might be going to attack someone, sometime, but you don’t know who or when, there is a reasonable expectation that if you are claiming people have already been killed you should be able to say who and when.
The truth of the matter is that if you take every American killed including and since 9/11, in the resultant Middle East related wars, conflicts and terrorist acts, well over 90% of them have been killed by Sunni Muslims financed and supported out of Saudi Arabia and its gulf satellites, and less than 10% of those Americans have been killed by Shia Muslims tied to Iran.
This is a horribly inconvenient fact for US administrations which, regardless of party, are beholden to Saudi Arabia and its money. It is, the USA affirms, the Sunnis who are the allies and the Shias who are the enemy. Yet every journalist or aid worker hostage who has been horribly beheaded or otherwise executed has been murdered by a Sunni, every jihadist terrorist attack in the USA itself, including 9/11, has been exclusively Sunni, the Benghazi attack was by Sunnis, Isil are Sunni, Al Nusra are Sunni, the Taliban are Sunni and the vast majority of US troops killed in the region are killed by Sunnis.
Precisely which are these hundreds of deaths for which the Shia forces of Soleimani were responsible? Is there a list? It is of course a simple lie. Its tenuous connection with truth relates to the Pentagon’s estimate – suspiciously upped repeatedly since Iran became the designated enemy – that back during the invasion of Iraq itself, 83% of US troop deaths were at the hands of Sunni resistance and 17% of of US troop deaths were at the hands of Shia resistance, that is 603 troops. All the latter are now lain at the door of Soleimani, remarkably.
Those were US troops killed in combat during an invasion. The Iraqi Shia militias – whether Iran backed or not – had every legal right to fight the US invasion. The idea that the killing of invading American troops was somehow illegal or illegitimate is risible. Plainly the US propaganda that Soleimani was “responsible for hundreds of American deaths” is intended, as part of the justification for his murder, to give the impression he was involved in terrorism, not legitimate combat against invading forces. The idea that the US has the right to execute those who fight it when it invades is an absolutely stinking abnegation of the laws of war.
As I understand it, there is very little evidence that Soleimani had active operational command of Shia militias during the invasion, and in any case to credit him personally with every American soldier killed is plainly a nonsense. But even if Soleimani had personally supervised every combat success, these were legitimate acts of war. You cannot simply assassinate opposing generals who fought you, years after you invade.
The final, and perhaps silliest lie, is Vice President Mike Pence’s attempt to link Soleimani to 9/11. There is absolutely no link between Soleimani and 9/11, and the most strenuous efforts by the Bush regime to find evidence that would link either Iran or Iraq to 9/11 (and thus take the heat off their pals the al-Saud who were actually responsible) failed. Yes, it is true that some of the hijackers at one point transited Iran to Afghanistan. But there is zero evidence, as the 9/11 report specifically stated, that the Iranians knew what they were planning, or that Soleimani personally was involved. This is total bullshit. 9/11 was Sunni and Saudi led, nothing to do with Iran.
Soleimani actually was involved in intelligence and logistical cooperation with the United States in Afghanistan post 9/11 (the Taliban were his enemies too, the shia Tajiks being a key part of the US aligned Northern Alliance). He was in Iraq to fight ISIL.
The final aggravating factor in the Soleimani murder is that he was an accredited combatant general of a foreign state which the world – including the USA – recognises. The Bethlehem Doctrine specifically applies to “non-state actors”. Unlike all of the foregoing, this next is speculation, but I suspect that the legal argument in the Pentagon ran that Soleimani is a non-state actor when in Iraq, where the Shia militias have a semi-official status.
But that does not wash. Soleimani is a high official in Iran who was present in Iraq as a guest of the Iraqi government, to which the US government is allied. This greatly exacerbates the illegality of his assassination still further.
The political world in the UK is so cowed by the power of the neo-conservative Establishment and media, that the assassination of Soleimani is not being called out for the act of blatant illegality that it is. It was an act of state terrorism by the USA, pure and simple.
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Here an interesting article on Suleimani from The New Yorker in 2013, which paints a whole another different picture to the ‘pure evil’ man they are trying to sell us after his assassination. In fact, it was this particular issue (such an unfair post-mortem treatment) that brought me here, and Craig Murray correctly addresses in his article above. Take your own conclusions;
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/the-shadow-commander
Yes. CNN was also celebrating Soleimani not so long ago ..
https://mobile.twitter.com/afshinrattansi/status/1214486348863811585
Newsweek too ..
https://mobile.twitter.com/IsabelO20183051/status/1214487421183811586
Now they are representing him is the Devil Incarnate.
The New Yorker in 2013 directly claimed that he had ordered hundreds of american deaths:
“Suleimani took command of the Quds Force fifteen years ago, and in that time he has sought to reshape the Middle East in Iran’s favor, working as a power broker and as a military force: assassinating rivals, arming allies, and, for most of a decade, directing a network of militant groups that killed hundreds of Americans in Iraq.”
The only surprise is that he lasted this long.
@ Blissex January 7, 2020 at 20:20
The article also claims that Assad used CW some fourteen times, which we now know is BS.
Playground manboy wants your dinner money so give it up punks. The stupid ones get a black eye while most slink away happy and grateful not be picked on. Smart kids hide and open an aspirin and bandage market.
In my opinion I’m afraid war with Iran and US is inevitable on a number of stages. From Irans counter fighters in Libya, Yemen and elsewhere, to the incessant voices in Israel and Saudi Arabia wanting Iran destroyed.
The growing influence Iran has had not only in Syria but more importantly Iraq, will not be lost on the Americans. However even more daunting that war is but a hop skip and a jump away, is the thought of Iran possessing nuclear weapons in the region, the US just won’t allow that to happen.
Also the US will want to get the EU back onside with regards to the JCPOA deal which the Americans renegade on, whilst the EU is attempting to adhere to. Iran has many assets that can be stripped including oil.
Next up after Iranian retaliation which is all but inevitable will be the US manufacturing public consent for war against Iran.
You have no idea, that the gates of hell are about to be opened on Earth. US may have the technological edge but it has neither the staying power or the stomach to fight the coming war. This is WWI redux but with a difference; the war after will be fought with sticks and stones!
“US may have the technological edge…”
No it doesn’t. If anything its advantage lies in quantity. See Andrei Martyanov, Dmitry orlov, The Saker, etc., passim.
“US may have the technological edge but it has neither the staying power or the stomach to fight the coming war. ”
Not that I’m defending the US, but logically numbers aside, they have the recent experience of war in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya. Iran would be wise to get round a table and negotiate some sort of peaceful solution with the US.
Iran has battle hardened soldiers (fighting in various theatres around the mid east) and has been watching the yanks in action for the last sixteen years, and gathering intelligence. Even Crazy Bush Blair axis did not dare to attack Iran with all the troops in Iraq, when Iranians apprehended the British marines who were on a ping/reconnaissance mission in the Iranian waters.
They have been in Afghanistan for 19 years and they are losing. They have been in Iraq for 17 years and they have lost.
They were able to destroy Libya because Colonel Qadafi, with touching naivete, dispensed with formal armed services and did not have the capability to fight back.
It’s often said that the USA has not won a war since 1945 – and it only got on the winning side of WW2 by waiting for most of the action to be over and then jumping in on the winning side. I strongly suspect that if the Germans had captured Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad and won the war against the USSR, the USA would have remained neutral.
In fact, I think it is reasonable to say that the USA has never won a war fair and square against an enemy equal – or anything like equal – in power. The day it tackles such an enemy, Americans will get the most horrible shock.
I’m not sure if it has been commented upon, but did anyone see Jonathan Rugman’s report on events on Channel 4 News? First there was the lame joke – “The mullahs mulling over their options” – then the dismissal of the widespread mourning in Iran as “weeping and wailing”. His flippant and tendentious comments were appalling.
No matter how much they protest, the ruling classes in Europe and North America are deeply, irretrievably racist. Since it became unacceptable to mock and belittle black people, they have simply redirected their patronising contempt towards Asian and African people.
I don’t waste time – or, more important, emotional energy – on the MSM. The BBC are among the worst offenders.
I agree, Tom. However, I find it useful to tune in from time to time to see what they’re thinking and to gauge to what extent different individuals have been “captured”. (It can be depressing. Perhaps I should give it up.)
I agree, Ian. In fact, I quite enjoy listening to programs such as “The Moral Maze” on Radio 4. It’s the funniest program I have ever heard on the radio – including the Goon Show. The best part is that they think they are being deadly serious.
Ch4 News never forgave him his role in stopping al-Qaeda from taking power in Syria.
Why do you bother watching the echo chamber media?
They are irrelevant!
They are all too relevant unfortunately.
Only if you allow them to be!
Time we all boycott the echo chamber media!
I didn’t realise that jonathan rugman was still around. I used to see him years ago and he was always like that . Never deviating a millimetre from the party line….and so earnest about it. So full of apparent conviction. .I couldn’t bear to watch.
Earlier ths afternoon in the HoC. PM slides out.
‘Where is Boris?’ Prime Minister is accused of being ‘caught short’ by Iran crisis as he sends Defence Secretary Ben Wallace to update Commons while he stays at Number 10
Boris Johnson has briefed Cabinet on the mounting crisis over US’s Iran killing
But he left it to Defence Secretary Ben Wallace to update MPs in the Commons
PM not seen in public since returning from his Caribbean holiday on Sunday
Iran vowed revenge after the US killed general Qassem Soleimani in drone strike
Threat to make UK forces ‘collateral damage’ in reprisals against Donald Trump
Claims that preparations are being made to evacuate UK personnel from Iraq’
7th January 15.43 updated
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7861241/Where-Labour-fury-Boris-Johnson-skips-Commons-Iran-debate.html
The Hansard record. Wallace, Corbyn, Mordaunt et al.
https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2020-01-07/debates/BB5857A1-081F-483A-9E58-E22BEBCBA673/MiddleEastSecurity
This is ridiculous, Macron tell Iran to do nothing against the american attacks, murder:
Macron Urges Rouhani to Avoid Any Steps That Could Deteriorate Situation in MidEast – Office
https://sputniknews.com/world/202001071077969346-macron-urges-rouhani-to-avoid-any-steps-that-could-deteriorate-situation-in-mideast—office/
UK defence secretary ‘reserves the right’ to ‘strike’ Iran
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2020/01/07/615606/UK-Defence-Secretary-Ben-Wallace-General-Soleimani-Assassination
What is wrong with these people?
“What is wrong with these people?”
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Only they don’t see it as “wrong”. They like it very much.
“This is ridiculous, Macron tell Iran to do nothing against the american attacks, murder:”
Wise words, retaliation will allow the US to manufacture consent, and get Congress, the Senate and the people onside with regards to war with Iran.
Macron, UK just follow the racist logic of them being superior and do not let nations like Iran make use of international law and retaliate.
Appeasement won’t work. They have to be hit hard. If Iran refuses to respond the US will become emboldened. Time to bite the bullet and give the US the war they’re after but not the war they want. Personally I would sink all US fleets in the region, annihilate Saudi oil installations to attack the western economy and US dollar, target the hatemongers in Tel Aviv and send dead US soldiers home by the thousands. War is what the US is pushing for and it won’t stop pushing until it gets war. Either Iran fights now or it fights later after it’s been further diminished. If you think delaying war means no war at all it’s just wishful thinking.
Or should Iran wait until the US-Israel wipes out its government? Or nuke Tehran? Or wait until the country functions no more, maybe? No. It needs to be decisive and soon. Put an end to Yankee and Israeli aggression. It will be bad for Iran and all of us but it’s going to happen because the push to war won’t stop; but Iran can ensure it’s a pyrrhic victory that finishes both regimes.
Are you sane?
I dont think Soviet union thought any different when Hitler attacked. 23 million died in that union. Was it worth the fight Tatyana? You would say yes instantly. Same for for Iran.
Apparently not ?
Another one. Change Soviet with the UK and their death toll. Perhaps you wouldnt be here typing if it wasnt for nations responding to act of war…
Jack, you answered a question that was not asked of you. And then you describe the answer that in your opinion I should give. I see you are quite pleased with this dialogue. Sorry for interrupting you 🙂
Come on, go on. I’m interested to see how much time you need to get to the issue of binary choice.
Thanks.
https://cs10.pikabu.ru/post_img/2018/04/07/8/og_og_15231089922829745.jpg
Well, in order to make your task a little easier, let me remind you how it was with the Soviet Union: 3 millions of German soldiers + 0.5 million allies, attacked on a wide front, from the Baltic to the Black Sea.
We now have many revisionists, who want to review history in their favor, so for the sake of keeping to the truth, here are the names of the allies: Finland, Italy, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary, Croatia.
I also remind you, that now we use polite phrase “national liberation movement”, one can’t simply say “collaborators” – some nations in the Soviet Union considered Hitler’s attack a rare lucky chance.
—
That is what “no other choice” means. If you think that Iran is in the same position, then sorry, I’m listening to your argument with all my attention.
The last time the US was hit hard they dropped two atomic bombs on Japan.
More recently after the World Trade Centre building catastrophe they drone bombed Pakistan and entered Afghanistan.
Iran must absorb Soleimani’s loss, and move on, war would only devastate Iran killing countless numbers in the process.
Jesus I hope you do not have any kids in school with that logic not to respond to despots and bullies.
“The last time the US was hit hard they dropped two atomic bombs on Japan.”
Er, republicofscotland as I implied in a posting above, the US was not being “hit hard” by the Japanese. The US strategy in Japan during world war two was to demoralise the population. It was Japanese civilians who were being “hit hard”.
The Pentagon’s own papers indicate that Iran’s strategy is defensive and not offensive. It is the United States that is overly aggressive. (See my posting on next page).
Saw a Pompeo press briefing session this pm. at which he laughed off (literally) the claim that Soleimani had been on a peace mission. Words to the effect that he had never heard anything so ridiculous and he assumed that nobody present in the room believed it either. In the manner of a bully leading his audience he challenged anyone present to suggest otherwise. He truly looked insane.
I take it there was some nervous laughter from the journalists present as he then said that he was glad to have made them laugh as it proved they were in agreement with him. I doubt this was the case at all. I suspect that many of them were laughing AT what he was saying. I would be interested to know if Matt Lee of Associated Press was in attendance. He is excellent at calling out White House officials and spokespeople for the lies they tell. But maybe Pompeo’s intimidatory and threatening manner would be too much even for him to take issue with face to face.
All that Trump is interested in is the Oil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqkQU5anI0
Wrong,
one of the BIG drivers is in stopping the flow of oil from the Gulf of Persia.
There is too much product on the World market.
So let me get this right – I’m still trying to get my head around the catastrophic levels of moronity, monumental arrogance, and total disregard for law, order, diplomatic process, parliamentary process and most importantly life itself, that have infested the highest levels of our govt.
An Iranian general on a peace brokerage is murdered on foreign soil when there by invitation, essentially if reports are to be believed, duped into being there for the purpose of illegal assassination in a manner that could quite plausibly be claimed and proven to be an overt act of war – which would definitely be claimed if positions reversed.
And what does our govt do? What does this Wallace monkey say – “he reserves the right to strike Iran”.
He reserves that right, that apparently is his fecking right, bollox to you and I, bollox to a parliamentary vote, bollox to international law or any UN mandate, this fecking outrageous zoo exhibit reserves the right to take us into world war 3 and the destruction of plenty. His moronic right. This empty headed, empty hearted buffoon reserves his right. His right, mind you.
And what about our rights, what about the rights of those you set on the road to death, what about their rights zoo boy? It makes me so angry. A couple weeks ago nobody had heard of this garbage, and now here he is reserving his right to commit more war. Diplomacy in the greater interest – ne’er a chance. There is no reasoning, no rationality, no sense in self serving wickedness. They just queue up one after another an endless line willing to shed unlimited blood so long as it isn’t theirs or their owns. No attempt at talking, just give the reptiles more blood. There’s no hope, if there is, its difficult to see.
This is the endgame of the postmodernists, devoid of reason, and reliant on taking chances and believing their tool of echo chamber media will iron out any difficulties with the supine masses who are so used to taking their cues from the man on the telly.
Fact is when the nukes start flying these tosspots would be first ones heading for the bunkers and shutting the rest of the population out and ordering their henchmen aka armed goons to shoot anyone who attempts to enter their bolthole.
It is unbelievable how these morons rose to power and how they are still holding onto levers of power despite their total and abject failures in discharging their duty of care towards the nations they are supposed to be leaders of!
Duty of care to the nations they are supposed to be leaders of. And make no mistake in any civilised society there is indeed such a duty of care with the office. Time was once when political leaders carried presence. You may not have liked them but many were statesmen in the true sense, had dignity and commanded respect. It wasn’t a mask that has today been dropped, it was their way, and these natural leaders, men and women have been replaced by an ugly endless verminous stream of psychopathic blood lusters, barren of all empathy, compassion, diplomacy and morality. I have to check I’m still living in the same reality.
And we can’t say they didn’t warn us eh? Time and again throughout the 90s they proudly announced the coming new world order. Well here it is Johnny, you can see it now this new world order, it carries a name on its forehead and that name is insanity……..
If you are of a mind for prayer, then pray for us all and if not, well heck, maybe do it anyway!!
I have to agree that the levels of impunity and disrespect for anyone with half a brain are certainly infuriating, even if you are a ‘neutral’ like I think I am.
Yet I am not surprised about this, as the neo-cons have been particularly obsessed with Iran for a couple of decades already (which never made sense IMO). It was about time that they crossed the line of no return and we might be there right now.
Sorry, this was a reply to Doghouse´s previous comment.
«But even if Soleimani had personally supervised every combat success, these were legitimate acts of war. You cannot simply assassinate opposing generals who fought you, years after you invade.»
Of course you can, that’s also a legitimate act of war, if the opposing generals keep making war on you; it’s illegitimate only if they formally made peace with you, and kept it. But Q Suleimani financed and organized, and boasted about it, a lot of attacks on americans, acts of war indeed, just as the americans financed and organized, and boasted about it, a lot of attacks on iranians helping Assad or Hezbollah, acts of war indeed too.
Pretending that the iranian Quds Force and the USA armed forces are not at war is ridiculous. On both sides, live by the swords, die by the sword.
The drone assassination of hundreds of civilian “potential enemies” by the USA are quite a different thing from killing a serving active enemy military general. The question there is not so much legitimacy, but whether it was a sensible decision: the war between the Quds Force and the USA armed forces is a “warm” war (not a “cold” one, as there have been actual battles) and the question is whether potential escalation into a “hot” war is a desirable risk. A rather different question.
Blissex
No its not act of war by opposing, fighting occupants. Extrajudicial killing is a crime under international law.
US is not in the middle east for peaceful measures, they are there – to fight for hegemony any state that try to stop this hegemony. It is as simple as that. Just as US wouldnt accept iranian military waging war in Mexico against the US.
You demonstrate American exceptionalism to a tee – It’s OK because we do it, but it’s not OK if someone else did it..
Kofi Annan stated the invasion of Iraq was illegal. The bullshit reason for invading has been shredded, as has the entire 9/11 official conspiracy theory that was the precursor to the bullshit reason. The US has not declared war on Iran, Iraq, or Syria. Nor did they declare war on Libya, Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, or Nigeria, yet all were attacked. Their known presence in Iraq and Syria is either in violation of international law, or an of war, neither are legal under the UN Treaty. Since the Allies threw out the “rules of war” from the Peace of Westphalia during WWII, anything goes. Therefore your narrative about making peace and keeping it, is hoist on its own petard. How can one make peace, if no war has been declared?
Evidence?
I think we’re about to go to war with China—in the Middle East. I think the Iranians will retaliate, and another pile of lies will be told, and the One Road One Belt initiative, with Iran apparently at its crossroads, will be blown up by another multi-decade war, which could easily escalate to involve the whole world. This, based on the huge deal that China made with Iran in September: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/chinas-challenge-america’s-political-and-economic-liberal-order-111361
Moreover, I think the Dems have colluded in this going-nowhere impeachment effort to distract us from the quiet setup of the next multi-decade war: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/china-will-be-true-winner-us-iran-war-60052 (5/29/2019), as it looks like this current deployment was planned 6 months ago.
Think about it: Bush/Cheney brought us rendition, black sites, torture, and several offensive and unnecessary wars. There were plenty of grounds for impeachment back then and it was totally off the table for Pelosi. Now, she wades in against Trump with grounds that are utterly paltry, by comparison. Given the completely bipartisan enthusiasm for hurling money at the Pentagon, I am in the beyond-cynical place right now of thinking this impeachment effort is one of collusion between the Dems and Republicans to distract us from noticing that this next war has been very slyly planned by our monolitihic War Party. Who has been screaming “Russia is Evil!” for more than 3 years and acting like they want the whole world to be embroiled in war? The Democrats! But, Trump will find some way to cry that none of it is his fault or doing.
I’ll be curious to see the response to my thoughts. BTW, Iran, China, and Russia just engaged in a major naval drill together.
I think that reads has a good point about China as a big player in the current crisis. The Chinese are also expanding their influence in Afghanistan. I think that there are signs of a shadow war around China for several years. Not forgetting the weird disappearance of MH370. That plane was on its way to Peking, a point rarely mentioned.
I’ve just watched this fascinating interview of Col Lawrence Wilkerson (former Chief of Staff to former US Secretary of State Colin Powell) by Aaron Mate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVWmmVhS0uc
[Lawrence Wilkerson on Trump’s Iran aggression: same neocon lies, new target]
Towards the end the two discussed the Pentagon’s internal assessment of Iran in 2014:
“Iran’s military doctrine is defensive. It is designed to deter an attack, survive an initial strike, retailiate against an aggressor, and force a diplomatic solution to hostilities while avoiding any concessions to challenge it’s core interests.”
Asked by Mate what accounts for the gulf between how Iran is perceived even internally by the Pentagon and how US officials … talk about Iran publicly, Wilkerson referred to a meeting he and others had with Obama in 2015 which Obama had begun by stating:
“There’s a bias in this town towards war.”
Wilkerson then told Mate:
“But the disquieting thing about his subsequent remarks was that he was hinting that he did not know what to do about it.”
Wilkerson concluded:
“We have not been at war for 20 years because we needed to be, we have been at war for 20 years because the national security state we have created since world war two and particularly since 9/11, it’s raison d’etre, it’s reason for being, is war, and more war.
From the military industrial complex to all the sinews of this country that make endless billions of dollars from these wars the influence is palpable. You see it when you go into the Senate, you see it when you go into the House of Representatives, you know these people are getting money from Lockheed Martin, you know they’re getting money from Exxon Mobil, into their packs, maybe into their personal pockets, you know they’re getting money from Mohamed Bin-Salman and his minions, you know that Bibi Netanyahu knows all of this … he’s talked about the kind of control he has over the United States Congress.”
John Pretty. Thanks, Grayzone on you tube with Aaron Mate and Max Bloomenthal, together with Afshin Rattansi on GoingUnderground RT
are doing the job of Journalism as it should be done.
The thing about the Shia and Sunni Muslims that I don’t really get is the separation seems to be over family squabbles that occurred over 1300 years ago. At some point, can’t they get over these family squabbles? Does it have to be perpetual conflict? Don’t they understand the message that sends about their faith? Consider your own family – how many of you are estranged from other family members? I just don’t get that. I suppose I’m blessed because in my family we don’t have that.
There are a lot of comments on this fine article, but I think they are running their course. I feel like any religion that was premised on SO much conflict has a tough road to travel but I’m not expert on Islam and there must be more to it? Don’t you think? I’ll tell you this I so love the tile work and the patterns and the shapes and the colors…..I would love to visit a Mosque in Iran before I die.
I pray for peace, but you might as well prepare for all possibilities. That is the world we live in.
re: family squabbles
Sunni and Shia have different opinion about who is worthy to occupy a leadership role. Shia believe that these can only be people from a special family. The Sunnis do not keep to this restriction.
Partly a matter of religion, and partly it’s like ‘royalists against democrats’
With respect to Sunni, Shia, Royalists and Democrats, didn’t mean to offend anyone.
Hey Tatyana – no offense taken by me.
What do you think of Kropotkin? In a way, he is my hero.
The conflict between Shi’a and Sunni Muslims actually began as a conflict between Iranian nationalism and Turkish nationalism.
Iran became a Shi’a state when the Safavids took over Persia in the early 1500s. Despite the Safavids having non-Persian and even possibily non-Shi’ite origins (they were originally a Sufi order based in Azerbaijan), they made Shi’ism the state religion to differentiate their empire from the Sunni Ottoman empire, with whom they were disputing a common border. Because for a long time they were at loggerheads over this border, the Safavids made every effort they could to show themselves as superior to the Ottomans in government and changing the state religion to something different was one way of doing it even if it meant forced conversions from Sunni Islam to Shi’a Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam
There is no family dispute as technically the Saudis shouldn’t be head of the Caliphate anyway (they’re not descended from the Prophet Mohammed) and the royal family of Jordan (who actually should be the head of the Caliphate) is compromised by its relationship to the British. If in the future the cities of Mecca and Medina come up for grabs, then the issue of who should be in charge of the Caliphate will come to the fore and maybe then the differences between the Shi’ites and Sunni followers will become important. By then the global Muslim community may come to some arrangement that the cities should be managed by an international Muslim organisation and protected by an international Muslim force.
Ken, I don’t know if you will read my comment 🙂 but it is not only in Islam that there has been a history of violence. For hundreds of years there has been conflict between various Christian groups, in particular between Catholics and Protestants since the sixteenth century.
Perhaps you write from the US where this violence is less pronounced? Remember, many of the original colonists were Christians escaping persecution at home in England. The Quakers even formed their own state.
The split from the Eastern Orthodox church which occurred much earlier seems not to have resulted in conflict, or not so much at least as I am aware of it.
I agree with your comment regarding family squabbles. You are indeed fortunate. I generally get along with my relatives though we have our moments.
I agree also with your comment regarding Islamic tile work and patterning. Very beautiful.
No, no Ken. I was not ignoring the genocide of Native Americans. They have a right to be more than indignant. In my opinion their leaders show great nobility and restraint.
I was messaged a moving piece from brian who also writes here that he had received from some Native American friends of his only a few days ago. You may have seen it.
I was simply highlighting the fact that there are often violent disputes between individuals belonging to various Christian sects in the same way that you had highlighted the same in the various violent disputes among individuals belonging to various Islamic sects.
I am sure that most people in the world desire peace and stability. We can only hope that common sense prevails and there is no more war and bloodshed in the Middle East.
By the way. The Buffalo “Know”. The bison were killed right close to extinction, but they managed to survive. They know what it is like to be hunted. The ones who survived witnessed the herd being killed indiscriminately for no reason but what!
Imagine this. A herd of buffalo like the olden days…………..it could last for miles. It must of been a thing of beauty and because the killers of the past, I’ll never get to see that in person and neither will you.
At what point in time will the killers be pushed off to the side, or if necessary, pushed off the cliff? I hope that point arrives soon.
Iranian foreign minister accuses US of ‘state terrorism’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngz9K_mHCw8
But as usual no one is listening to great minds. Instead, Trump’s disinformation campaign running high throughout the media.
It just kicked off!
Iran has fired a volley of missiles to the American base in Iraq.
Al-Asad US base in Iraq comes under attack by multiple rockets – reports
air raid sirens heard in Erbil (apparently only testing?)
9 missiles hit Al-Assad and 5 in Taji
Well, right now is all downhill then. I hate the bastards have got their war in the end.
This can go south pretty quick read this article
Trump has got into it way above his head.
FOA those thinking about the oil price going up, the closure of Hormuz would send the quadrillion market of derivatives would make crash of 1929 look a picnic in the park. This could blow to be hideous.
Oooh. I we gonna start talking about the derivatives market? Oh boy – that is a good discussion that in the end has to do with zero and infinity and a lack of respect for limits. Man – I could talk about that. You are correct in what you say…….the numbers in that market are so out of whack with human dignity that they have the potential to result in unheard of calamity. Know what I mean?
This is the kind of time bomb that could blow big time, the worth of the market is 32 time the total gdp of the planet Earth! That idiot Trump has kicked a hornets nest and I hope he keeps his pecker in his knickers, time for dick swinging is not now!
The war mongers are playing with fire, and they are not going to be safe from the fallout. These chancers have been reliant on their echo chamber media tools and so far have got away with it. This one hard wall they have pissed on and it is splashing back onto them.
Oh and I read the article (or at least the first sentence or two and I agree). There were too many ads there though for me to read the whole thing.
I prefer internet sites where the ads are kept to a minimum.
I think Facebook is a monopoly that needs to be split up and they are not the only one.
I’m done talking for now.
Peace, Ken
I think these missile attacks are nothing but another round of pointless ejaculation.
Whatever, let Iran shoot a few missiles to work off justified anger.
Justified retribution takes time but if you believe in some laws then it always happens.
Seems like Trump has no time to write on Twitter. At least something positive in this attack, Trump shut up for a minute.
Tatyana,
It is a situation of national pride.
In manly terms – who has the bigger pair of balls.
let us see if this is merely ejaculatory or if it actually kicks off a serious war.
Given Trump’s thin skin – he will want to seem to be and project himself into the world as having, in response, just grabbed Iran by the p……
Now that was funny!
I understand national pride very well. And I understand difference between shooting and winning.
Looking at the virtually all male cabinet, you surely mean that he has kicked them in the nuts, Courtney….;)
@Tatyana
I reckon the Iranian regime will have been emboldened by the huge outpouring of grief. An exchange of missiles with the US would’ve dangerous for them, in normal times, but now, with the people wrapped in patriotic fervour, less so.
Dangerous times.
Goose and Ken,
I concur – ” Dangerous times.”
@ Goose
your post does not make any sense. You say:
“An exchange of missiles with the US would’ve dangerous for them, in normal times”
and follow this with:
“now, with the people wrapped in patriotic fervour, less so”
Less dangerous for them now that they are – as you put it – “wrapped in patriotic fervour”??
Well, the Iranian theocratic regime isn’t exactly popular and it’s seen lots of protests eg . ‘The green movement’ 2009-2010 and more recently, demos across the country over rising petrol prices(Iran has among the cheapest fuel in the world).
This killing (assassination), by the US ,of a popular figure, a hero, has been grist to the mill for rallying the faithful.
Hope that makes sense.
By killing Qassem Suleimani, Trump has achieved the impossible: uniting Iran.
…Article in today’s guardian too, just noticed it.
@ Goose
thank you for your clarification, yes it makes more sense now.
A dozen missiles is not an Iranian riposte. It is some Iraqi militants shooting off. Though it may be treated as a Gulf of Tonkin incident by the US.
I’d think it is probably too early to say laguerre. I’d like a good link to a reliable news report.
His moniker is La guerre, the war.
antonym, oui je sais 🙂
Laguerre,
Do you think than Trump and his motley crew actually want a full fledged war with Iran?
Over to you.
Courtenay
Iran is big enough and bold enough to admit responsibility for any retaliation. They won’t hide behind militias.
That’s what was so farcical about US claims, denied by Iran, they’d attacked a Japanese bound tanker carrying Iran’s own oil.
Iran confirms they shot some ballistic missiles from Iran territory.
IRGC warned the governments who gave space and bases to US “wherever we get attacked from, we’ll attack there”!
US jets take off Incerlic and UAE
Can you tell Putin to get his finger out and declare right now that if US or Israeli forces try to attack Iran, Russia will stop them.
Putin is in Damaskus, so he may do well without my advice, I think 🙂
oh, come on. read the source – pentagon statement
https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2052103/dod-statement-on-iranian-ballistic-missile-attacks-in-iraq/
no proxies, it is direct attack
Iranian press in the UK is being shut down now on twitter apparently. How would we know any different?
Well, I was wrong about that one, but it was early days when I posted.
we are all toast, when we are all destroyed, remember, all the innocent blood we shed, went to heaven, there they have power greater than on earth. They will dance on our graves. All the west that attacked a peaceful people in the middle east, and made up lies to blame them for it, are now going to be totally decimated very soon by natural (karmic) catastrophe and wars and genocide. You get back what you give=The law of creation. Horrible deaths. How do you think Christ won and took down satan, he was murdered/crucified and went up to heaven and there has all the power. There was nothing more stupid and greedy and self-destructive than the middle east wars. All lying murdering psychopaths go directly to hell. When you take a holy place and people of God and turn the place into a bloody, nightmarish, hell, you lose everything. Death and destruction is coming for us all now. In the end the victims of evil, win. Life is about to become Hell all over the world, except for those nations who stood up and defended the victims. Which would be no one, so that means all nations. Spiritual truths will set you free, however, war is the worst satanic ritual that destroys all willing participants souls. No one in the middle east ever attacked anyone or wanted any war, it is all lies. Psychopaths blame their victims. Lies are the root of all in the hell that is coming. Everyone we slaughtered for those lies is in heaven. Almost all were innocent civilians. Now they will have life forever, that is the Truth.
I fear you’re right. Let’s hope there are some adults left to stand up against this. It is our last chance.
@Fedup
“Yemeni Press;
“Saudi sources familiar with the Yemeni Press said that some of the Saudi royal princes and their families had left the country in secret for several European destinations through the airports of Riyadh, Jeddah and Mecca.”
Clearly they are aware of the world of shit that is about to be unleashed.”
Thanks for this. Meanwhile the British royal family may be preparing to run to Canada, just as they did during WW2. The “Duke and Duchess of Sussex” are “considering basing” themselves there. (The BBC came out with some such euphemism). The “Duke” is the same psychotic guy who boasted of sitting safely in front of a computer screen murdering Afghans who were defending where they lived against invaders like him, calling it a “game”. He’s probably got a chest full of medals for leadership and bravery.
C’mon Extinction Rebellion, get yer drones out and stop flights from Mildenhall. What do you mean, “That doesn’t fit in with our aim of stopping climate change”?
N_
our news yesterday reported on the ‘leaked’ letter by William Seely and also on US commentary “it was not signatured and must not be published”
https://twitter.com/ELQaurawy/status/1214613972181245958/photo/1
also I saw reports on German troops leaving Iraq for Quwait
“Reports of US military jets taking off from the UAE. IRGC journalist says that if these jets attack #Iran, Iran will rain missiles down on the UAE.”
https://twitter.com/SinaToossi/status/1214695363778621440
All it takes is one or two well-placed missiles to hit Dubai and that whole show goes bankrupt.
I doubt the slack caused by Dubai International Airport going down could easily be taken up by other airports either.
Can´t find the link right now but read a couple of hours ago something along the lines of “Iranian officials say that if the US retaliates Hezbollah will fire rockets into Israel”, thus widening the conflict.
At least one NATO member has condemned the US murder of General Soleimani as being “in complete contravention of international law”: Slovenia.
German news reporting one base completely destroyed.
Goose. who do we watch for live coverage. cant get Press TV live. RT isnt that good at the moment.
PressTV on Twitter: https://twitter.com/PressTV
Thanks, it wasn’t there when I looked before.
Got a motorised satellite dish so I flick around.
Al Arabiya
in english
https://english.alarabiya.net/
in russian
https://ria.ru/konflikt-ssha-i-irana/
Brilliant! Museums or toilets!! Maybe all the MuckDonalds in Iran will be targeted
From N24
Several rockets were fired, one of the bases had been completely destroyed. German Bundeswehr soldiers are also stationed in Erbi(which was attacked)l. A spokesman for the operational command said at the request of the dpa news agency that the soldiers were doing well.
The air base Al Asad was attacked with dozens of missiles was “completely destroyed” but note this is statement by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, so how much credence idk?
I don’t think something can be completely destroyed by Katyusha rockets, but Iran offered the second wave, perhaps we don’t know yet.
there’s a person on Twitter, Ali Arouzi, who says
This is key right now:
If America does not respond to these attacks then this may be over for now. If America attacks then this will escalate.
How this unfolds now depends on the US response.
Iran is warning that if there is retaliation for the two waves of attacks they launched their 3rd wave will destroy Dubai and Haifa.
https://twitter.com/aliarouzi
NBC News Tehran Bureau Chief & correspondent. “Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.”
Afshin Rattansi says:
… the red flag signifying global war is raised over the Jamkarān Mosque in the holy city of Qom in Iran…
https://twitter.com/afshinrattansi/status/1213539339587723270
Someone explained in comments:
“The flag was flown only once : after Mohammad’s grandson was killed in Karbala in the 7th century. The result? The caliph (emperor) of arguably the largest empire at that time was killed. His family destroyed. His friends hunted down. This is the second time the flag has flown.”
Trump finally tweets; “All is well!”
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1214739853025394693?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
You couldn´t make it up. We are living bizarre times for sure, with both Trump and Khamenei refreshing Twitter.
Who knows what will happen tomorrow. Maybe this is even an agreed tit for tat so the Iranians can save face without further escalation.
Diego, I hope so.
—
there’s nothing good in war, but some certainty about Trump. At least, if they continue to shoot, then we’ll probably know what “culture” means for Trump – museums or toilets.
NATO decisions have to be unanimous. If one member dissents, there cannot be a NATO military response.
Also, Boris Johnson deafening silence FOR DAYS, after partying in the Caribbean, is topping even Morrison´s pathetic response to the wildfires in Australia. 400 British troops in Iraq and he has not said a fucking single word!
Do you think it is possible that Boris is in the Middle East? In which case, God help us all, the last thing we need in negotiations of such delicacy is Boris crashing the diplomatic party.
I didn’t expect Iran to hit back like this. The US and it’s cohorts have been foaming at the mouth over the last few years, desperate for an excuse to decimate Iran. Well, now they have that excuse and we can expect a massive bombing campaign against Iran.
Talk of allowing Iran to save face reveals a real lack of understanding. This isn’t the “save face” business. This is the massacre business; the blood, oil, and arms business.
They’ll sell it by saying it’s an opportunity to bring lasting and meaningful peace to the region. And, of course, they’ll say Iran has been behind all the instability and tension of the last few years, that it has links to terrorism and other terrible stuff.
If Russia gets in the way, they’ll come to an arrangement. One way or another, Iran is getting hammered.
I doubt that the Iranians did this without consulting Russia and China. Since Iran is under siege, what difference will it make? They were going down the same road as Iraq since the 90s.
Hatuey. I agree with you. Iran in the process will inflict as much damage on KSA, Gulf States and even Israel via Lebanon as possible.
Close the Persian Gulf to all shipping. I was hoping that Russia and China would defend Iran and station their S400. Israel seems to have got what it worked so very hard to do. It and the neo cons plan to destroy Iran might be unfolding as we speak. I was filled with dread at the news of the Assassination. The Iranians had no option but to strike back. Enough was enough. Even though they are alone, as they were when we supported Saddam to invade. Its a horrific crime to add that country to that list of countries the Pentagon drew up years ago. No doubt the Israelis will be dancing.
They are crapping themselves mate! This shit is far too hot for their liking.
This is not a case of fighting a bunch of defenceless women and children armed with sticks and stones. That fraud (haut..) the propagandist is talking out his/her/they hat.
Bin salman has sent his younger brother to get Trump to ease off the pedal (yesterday), whilst the rest of princes and their families have been packing up and leaving from the various airports in their private jets to European destinations.
Last night proved that despite patriot batteries etc the bases were hit and there is more of the same on the way if there is any retaliation in response to this reprisal attack.
Zionist biting more than they can chew is an understatement. In the 33-day war of Lebanon, most of the Israeli population from the border area took flight taking refuge in one the beaches and the lack of food and sanitation, etc. was the stuff of nightmares. However, deep Into Israel was not affected, this time around this a different game, and there are the chemical and noxious complexes that would be hit just to amplify the damage.
It will a dark irony, that standing up to the great Satan, as the Persians are doing, getting slaughtered in the process, will be seen by ordinary Arabs ‘in the street’ (even sunni) as heroic compared to their own leaders who have been corrupted and lost all respect and dignity. A tidal wave of pent up resentment could sweep the Arab world on the back of Persian martydom. ?!
This is a WWI scenario, and if US et al. think this is going to be a cake walk then we all best get ready and assume the position; put your heads in the middle of our legs and kiss our butts goodbye. This time we have nukes unlike the WWI, and they will be flying around within matter of hours/days. I am on record world can no longer afford US.
The fact is Iranians have teeth, and they have just bared it, those propagandists that believe another war can fly in the mid east ought to realise this one is going to go global, and pretty hot in a short space of time, regardless of their wishful thinking.
fedup
What teeth? Attack rendered no casulaties, Iran cannot afford that type of attack.
U.S: will regardless retaliate against Iran in kind and this is where we actually would see alot of deaths I am afraid.
Still Iranians think the U.S will now leave the region. Iran need to wake up!
Leader: Military Reprisal Not Enough, US Should Leave Region
https://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13981018000411
You’d do better not to believe US claims. They never told the truth about their casualties in Iraq. Why would they start now? No serious claim has been made that the US got off scot free from the attack. The videos prove that some at least of the missiles hit their targets.
Laguerre
Because Trump cannot say “all is good” if there are casualties of course.
Of course he can, if he’s to continue his standard bluster.
Jack there are estimates of 80 dead, I hate body counting, but have you not noticed the relative calm the echo chamber media?
Last night the game board was kicked up into the air. The game is changed!
This is a pretty tricky situation Jack!
I remember before the Iraq war in 1990 being told about Iraqi teeth. Then they did it again with Serbia, and again with Iraq when they finally invaded.
We can only guess why a team of thugs might shout about the teeth of prospective victims before knocking those teeth out.
I bet you will be in the front then, will you?
Like it or not Britain is up to its neck in this war. I wonder what Dominic Cummings’ strategy is? Maybe a Boris “we shall fight them on the beaches” speech. Definitely, we should send our mighty aircraft carrier in, along with the chariots of fire.
Yes I sense US, UK, France, perhaps Germany will be part of this war. EU will be in the background doing less important stuff for that coalition.
France and Germany are unlikely to take part in a war. The UK, though, is stupid enough to do so.
Why shoulx Germany be part of this war, Jack? they are.moving their few tropps to Kuwait, very likely to fly them out.
nevermind
Forces are sitting ducks of course they move them out.
This wont be an invasion it will be something like Libya 2011.
Inappropriate comparison with Libya. US troops are already on the ground in Iraq, and will be obliged to convert into occupation mode, if they are to stay.
A number of things have come out of the last few days:-
– Germany announced withdrawal of their troops
– America announced retreat to Kuwait
– Cross-Party support in the USA criticising the US President’s decision
– Israel specifically denied being involved in this assassination
– Khomeni in his address this morning isssuing a warning for Asia not to interfere
– Religious Leaders in Iran spent most of the last few days denouncing USA military action
– Same Religious Leaders outlining civil US citizens shall not be harmed in any way.
The latter rhetoric was ramped up during the hours before the firing of missiles.
Judging by the activities since the processions began in Iran in respect to Soleimani mass movement of people (and probably materiel) was clear across Iraq.
Looking back with close to 2020 vision it is quite clear that there were major de-escalation talks to work out a compromise. This compromise included Iran’s slap in the face to almost empty American assets in Iraq.
Part of that compromise will probably see US Forces allowed to stay for peace-keeping and humanitarian projects.
The next steps from Europe and especially Trump Inc will set out the agenda.
Part of this modern sabre rattling could be a warning to China and Russia, placing limits on their actiivities in the region.
Much will depend on how accurate the strikes are allowed to be. If the USA say most missed their targets and did little damage to American assets then we know beligerence will dominate.
“Part of that compromise will probably see US Forces allowed to stay for peace-keeping and humanitarian projects”.
That’s very odd. They have never done anything “peace-keeping” or “humanitarian” before. On the contrary, such mealy-mouthed phrases are routinely used as excuses for occupying countries and sucking out their wealth.
Exactly
As long as the US has access to more oil they will be happy.
Use what ever phraseology oils your wheels
The next day or so will be to try and calm the situation.
The US can’t make the next move aggressvely without their close Allies Israel (Netanyu), and the al-Sauds (and their satellites).
Calm it down and look for a longer term solution to cream the resources
As we move into a hot war … where exactly is our LauraKoftheCIA?
Not a peep since her splurge on 19th December topped of with
‘Right then twitter, that’s it from me til next year – Happy Christmas one and all … see you on the other side (follow
@BBCPolitics
and
@BBCNews
if you want to keep up, or sit on your sofa and eat Quality Street and come back in 2020)
Laura Kuenssberg
·
19 Dec 2019
Hard time of year for a lot of folks. Suicide Hotline 116 123 (Samaritans) A simple copy and paste might save someone’s life.
Would 3 Twitter friends please copy this text and post under their own name? Pass it on…
Laura Kuenssberg
·19 Dec 2019
———-
My guess is at the same site as bozo as they were briefed on the next phase.
Their role for the Pathocracy and getting their stories rehearsed – I expect her to move into Downing Street as the official press officer!
Presumably they will have been getting their inoculation flu jab which has just been unleashed as zillions of chinese take to the air for their new year intermingling with the zillions of westerners sun seeking crisscrossing the planet.
This world war will not be fought with the outdated nuclear weapons – they have better plans to get rid of us pesky revolters, and shiny multicoloured tellytubby suits as demo’d in Salisbury to clear away the dead and take all our possessions.
How long before the internet shutdown?
I said at the time that she was patronizing the viewers. She’s probably on holiday. Israel perhaps?
Did you read the comments under that Quality Street post? Most are derogatory.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1207774891451265025
What the licence fee payers shell out for her services.
‘Political Editor Laura Kuenssberg’s salary has for the first time overtaken that of North America Editor Jon Sopel – both received increases but Kuenssberg’s was larger, putting her on £250,000-£254,999. Her Brexitcast co-star Katya Adler also got a pay bump, going from £170,000-£179,999 to £205,000-£209,999.’
https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2019-07-02/bbc-pay-2019-top-salaries-revealed/
and a clothes allowance I bet. She is always shown in some new designer piece.
This is her brother who is leaving Brighton and Hove Council to work for that nice Mr Javid at the Home Office. Cosy, eh?
https://www.brightonandhovenews.org/2019/11/04/brighton-and-hove-council-finance-chief-to-leave-for-home-office-job/
Is he now? Ah well joins the sister who is a supremo in the fco?
The family history is deepstate.
Her dad was using slavery in the banana republics alongside the CIA.
Laura learnt her tradecraft at a CIA university.
She will be the face and mouthpiece of the illegally elected Bozo government as we are given hard brexit, war and plague …
I consider Katya Adler to be a honest journalist at the BBC.
She was put in the dungeon pre election for telling the truth about the bs ‘get brexit done’ and only alllwed out briefly on election night – in a very edgy session with LK.
I’ve just checked her twitter and she has just put out an excellent set of posts on Bozo’s first meeting with new EU pres today
I expect she will be slapped down again by her ‘minders’.
Designer dresses are ‘placement’; wasted but par for the course.
Now you see the postmodernists at their best;
A- amplify and exaggerate imaginary threats!
B- downplay any real threats!
This is the time for them to keep their mouths shut!
Carney goes on record; “The global economy is heading towards a “liquidity trap” that would undermine central banks’ efforts to avoid a future recession,”
Read into it the derivative market crash!
For these dumb yankee doodle yahoos and Brit donkeys who still don’t understand the significance – imagine if General Washington had been assassinated by King George for having won in the revolution, how would the proto yanks have taken that then and still now 250 years later?
Also how great was the irani General? Here is a photo of Soleimani having a walkabout amongs US troops and tanks https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/06/censored-photo-shocker-general-soleimani-with-american-troops-in-iraq/
US can’t claim they couldn’t have got to him without using drones. …. A Ukrainian Boeing Jet appears to have dropped out of the sky on fire after leaving Tehran… …. A new flu type seems to have kicked off in China just as zillions are traveling for newyear. ——
As a large percentage of middleclass westerners travel to sunny paradises of SE Asia and Caribbean at this time of year…they may not be traveling back! Especially as the ME hubs get set on fire!
Ah well at least yesterdays cricket performance was jolly diverting for a few hours – i fear the series may not be completed.
https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/01/06/censored-photo-shocker-general-soleimani-with-american-troops-in-iraq/
@ Dungroanin January 8, 2020 at 09:37
Seems to be some big problems with Boeings. I suspect their ‘Uninterruptible Autopilot’, as in the case of MH 370. ‘If it’s Boeing, I ain’t going’!