The new bid for Scottish Independence is started. It does not matter how each of us got here, who had which idea first, what might be a better plan, who stabbed who in the back. It is gone. Let it be.
Robert the Bruce murdered John Comyn before the high altar of a church during peace talks in an agreed truce. That is, to coin a phrase, the gold standard of bad political behaviour. But he remains our most revered political leader, because he won Independence. Scots did not refuse to fight at Bannockburn because Bruce was a nasty man. There is of course a real argument that the Bruce being a violent psychopath was essential to Scottish victory.
There is an argument from realpolitik here. We will only gain Independence through using mechanisms of political power, short of popular revolution which is not in play at present. The only person who can currently move those levers of political power for Independence is Nicola Sturgeon. The only practical short term option available to those of us whose hearts are set on Independence, is to get behind the plan Sturgeon has now set in motion.
Naming a date for a consultative referendum – 19 October 2023 – gets the campaign clearly underway. All referenda in the UK are consultative (including the Brexit one which you will recall had to be implemented by the Westminster parliament before it took effect) so the nomenclature is unimportant.
I suspect the Supreme Court will strike down the referendum. That really does not matter. Two things do matter.
The first is that Sturgeon has endorsed “Plan B”, which is that if a referendum is denied, the Westminster election will be fought as a plebiscite, on the grounds that every vote for the SNP is a vote for Independence. The concomitant of that, must of course be that Independence will be declared if that election is won. Anything else would be a betrayal of the Scots people.
The second and far more important point is that, now there is a date, campaigning can start in earnest. I am already looking to make plans to speak around the country again. Once people actually hear the case for Independence, they move towards supporting. Famously the last Independence campaign started with polls showing 28 to 32% in support of Independence, and finished on polling day on 45%.
I confidently expect a similar effect. We must also replicate the extent to which social media and old fashioned town meetings and street campaigning shaped that 2014 surge.
95% of the mainstream media, both state and corporate, will be resolutely, implacably biased and hostile to Independence. Our strength is with the people, not with the media bosses and the BBC. That is where the SNP need the wider Yes movement, who are the heart and soul of the street and social media effort.
If we all come together we can generate unstoppable popular momentum towards Independence, which can sweep away opposition and will itself negate both the dangers of the Supreme Court and Westminster foiling a referendum, or of certain MPs using the fallout merely to get their feet back under the table. Of course I see the potential pitfalls in the Sturgeon plan, but popular enthusiasm is the way to storm over them.
So I urge all Independence supporters, including those distrustful and bruised by factional infighting, to drop any grudges and get with the programme. Now is the time to work wholeheartedly for Independence, alongside others who believe in it, irrespective of other issues. We have a battle to win; criticism from armchair generals is not going to be helpful here.
Bluntly, if anyone has a right to feel hard done by it is me, and if I can put it aside, so can you.
Scotland can be a normal size Nordic style country, blessed with strong abundant resources and a talented, educated population. For my English friends, the loss of Scotland will hopefully give the seismic political shock that England needs to end the dominance of the Tories and bring a better choice than the anti-worker’s rights Keir Starmer. Scotland will also point the future for Welsh Independence and Irish reunification.
But Independent Scotland will not be a paradise. In every country on earth there are charlatans in politics. In every country on earth there are sociopaths attracted to wielding the power of the state. In every country on earth there are people in high positions secretly in the pay of another state.
Scotland will not be immune from those things, and perhaps since 2014 we have become less caught in the Utopian dream that seemed then almost within reach.
There will even be some Tories still in an Independent Scotland. The difference to now will be that the Tories will have no power over us.
Friends, rally round. It is time to unite.
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Ask yourself this, would the Tory party be willing to hold a snap GE, knowing that they might lose it (recent by-elections could indicate a pattern) and spend some time on the opposition benches to thwart a plebiscitary GE election in Scotland to keep Scotland tied to the union and keep on plundering our assets.
Bear in mind that Sir Keir Starmer is in my opinion a Tory in all but name and I doubt he would repeal many of the Tories’ policies and Starmer is opposed to Scottish independence.
With regards to the Supreme Court, Lord Reed (not John Reid) is the President of the Supreme Court; he’s a Scot, however the Supreme Court was created by Gordon Brown in 2009, and a sprinkle of UK compliant Scots judges were added to give it an appearance of parity to the Four Nations that Make up the UK.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Reed,_Baron_Reed_of_Allermuir
She has had three plans.
Her Plan A failed, much like her miserable career as a failed lawyer who was censured at least twice by the Law Society for misconduct. She inherited a majority from Salmond and she blew it. Her Plan A was to claw back that majority and then claim that it was a substitute for his failure in the Referendum.
Her Plan B is knowingly doomed to fail. She knows that the two most senior members of the Supreme Court are Scottish judges, both of whom are former Court of Session judges. She knows that they know the history of how the Union came about and she knows that they are most unlikely to attempt to usurp the authority of Parliament (HoC&HoL) by imposing a Section 30 upon the democratically elected Parliament.
Her Plan C is to impose her will upon the voters in the next GE and declare that they must vote on only one topic in that election. She proposes then to declare UDI if the accumulation of votes on all sorts of topics by claiming that it was all about her her and her desires. National Socialism at its best.
Plan A: buggered.
Plan B: doomed.
Plan C: well dodgy, in every way.
Oh well, all I can say is who knows what might happen along the way, as the saying goes.
“A bad plan is better than no plan (at all)” is a popular chess adage that is also used in business. Chess champion Emanuel Lasker (1868-1941) wrote in Chess Strategy (1915): “An unsound scheme, even if worked out to its logical conclusion, can of course be of no value. All the same it is better than no plan at all.”
I suspect you would claim the British General Election in 2019 was a vote for Brexit
No. The Brexit Referendum was a vote for Brexit.
Fortunately for democracy, the democratically expressed will of the people, as expressed by the people, was eventually respected by a subsequent head of government. Arse though he is, he did at least get that job done where Theresa May never would have.
I wish that had been the case with Wee Nippy in the 2014 Referendum. She should have put the Neverendum crap to bed long ago and listened to herself saying that the IndyRef was to be once in a generation.
There was, however, a disgraceful attempt at a rearguard action by the losers who tried, rather pathetically, to have another bite at the Brexit referendum cherry by asking for a “confirmation referendum” in the hope of thwarting the will of the people. It failed, just as the current attempt at overthrowing democracy as expressed in the 2014 IndyRef ought to fail.
Democracy can be a bitch, I know, but it really ought to be respected.
Craig Murray has expressed an interesting viewpoint that democracy is not necessary to destroy the United Kingdom that was created by Scotland. Declaring Rhodesia style UDI by a cabal of SNP types ought to be enough.
“The Brexit Referendum was a vote for Brexit.”
but not for the Brexit we got. In the house of Brexit there were many mansions, but we got to end up living is the most inconvenient and badly laid out one.
i think you just seem obsessed in parroting phrases with nothing solid to back up anything.in short trolling for attention. Reminder to self – do not respond to this idiot
“In every country on earth there are people in high positions secretly in the pay of another state.”
This is why it helps to have an uncontested legal transition to Independence with interim treason laws that defend the nascent Scottish state from criminal disloyalty in office, reject the notion of treason as primarily against the monarch, and exclude the prospect of pardons and amnesty for agents and assets of foreign powers. There must be transparency, monitoring and active investigation of suspicions of treasonous behaviour (I envisage judicial expulsion to the country which the traitor serves, not beheadings and purges). Similarly, Scottish civil servants (and other signees) must be given a date at which their subjugation to the UK official secrets Acts expires.
Craig,
I think you’re right!
How powerful it would be if you did some public debates with George Galloway?
You were very convincing on his radio/youtube show.
It would bring back memories of his debates with Christopher Hitchens!
How powerful it would be if you did some public debates with George Galloway?
You were very convincing on his radio/youtube show.
It would bring back memories of his debates with Christopher Hitchens!
I think that all of Scottish and British and international life would be illuminated by Craig Murray doing public debates, pissed or sober.
Sadly, the state and billionaire controlled media, as well as anything that can be controlled by the ruling 'family' of the SNP, will never permit that.
Much has been learned from 2014. Whilst the BT did win the vote they only managed to watch as support declined. It seemed the more people knew about independence the more they wanted it. I suspect BT will be better organised and more subtle this time. Already there is news propaganda in place to ‘big up’ the UK and royalty ie anything about British identity. This was even before Sturgeon’s announcement – which they obviously knew all about..
“Bluntly, if anyone has a right to feel hard done by it is me, and if I can put it aside, so can you.”
Hats off to you Craig for being the bigger man, you’re a shining example to us all on how to put it behind you and get on with it.
agreed
The biggest enemy in the future of Scotland, is Nicola Sturgeon esquire …………
If any of you think it makes sense to leave her in place, win her the victory and then hope for a bunch of bright tomorrows, heaven help you.
If you get rid of Sturgeon and her nasty cabal, you might have a chance of unifying the nation. The sooner the better.
If by some bizarre twist of fate and Sturgeon is anywhere near in power and can claim it was her wot did it, you’ll never get rid of her.
Oh wouldn’t it be terrible if Sturgeon stayed in power by the dastardly trick of delivering what the people wanted and being popular for it.
Wally.
If ever a name was so exquisitely appropriate.
“Friends, rally round. It is time to unite”
We *are* united, no matter which party we belong or none at all. We need only the occasion to vote. That is now in the hands of the British State, placed there by our one-note, Gold Standard first minister and her oh-so accommodating quasi-nationalist party.
The Bruce lost 3 brothers, his wife and daughter held in cages in Nottingham. If Nicola sturgeon lost her most treasured and valuable sable purse during the heat of this campaign I would dash to its recovery, rifle it mercilessly it and go on the spree, gleefully with the contents. With my lifelong, fellow nationalist pals. For as long as it lasted.
I do not believe a word of it but I do take the political meaning in your article.. Maybe things will turn in Scotland’s favour despite them.
Good to have your commentary again Craig, wise words that need to be heeded!
Well said, Craig. I have disagreed with you on the subject of Sturgeon’s loyalty to independence, but you are definitely right about the unstoppable momentum of a movement towards independence.
Just one thought….when Sturgeon (or whoever) is declaring independence in Holyrood, or is signing a divorce agreement agreed between Westminster and Holyrood, or is manifesting any other unequivocal action that sets Scotland on its journey as an independent nation, there will still be those (on here and elsewhere) who will be shrieking “It’s a trick!!! Sturgeon is fooling all of you!”. When the newly appointed Scottish UN ambassador gives his or her maiden speech at the UN, the usual trolls will find evidence of Sturgeon’s perfidy.
Your call for everyone to put division behind us and to work together, was always going to fall on barren ground for some…….
A flea is innocent. I cannot bring myself to crush it. A nationalist is not innocent.
If it”s true that Scots are generally more social-democratic minded the circumstances for independence could hardly look more propitious. With Labour sewn up tight again, continuing union with England virtually guarantees centre-right rule (at best). I don’t follow your suggestion that Scottish independence would cause England to shift left, I’d really need to hear that one properly explained . Nevertheless as an Englishman it seems very natural that Scotland would want away ala Ireland and all the others and did so long before Brexit. I hope for your sakes Nicola Sturgeon is on the level and this isn’t some predetermined, cynical, circuitous meander back to a status quo that suits her and her circle very well. I suppose you do just have to trust her despite everything.
As a friend of Scotland, if the referendum does go ahead I hope it will lead to a better future for Scotland. As an Englishman, I hope it would deliver a salutary shock but fear it might have reverse effect, leading to a permanent tory majority in what is left of the UK.
I don’t see what difference it makes either way, as Craig pointed out in his previous post apart from a brief hiccup the Labour party are really no different to the Conservatives. Both parties have corporatist economic policy, interventionist foreign instincts and are fighting over the central ground on social policies.
Unless you mean the shock will give birth to something completely new on the political scene. Something we can all hope for but I’d be surprised
They are products of the power(s) behind the throne: the military industrial complex; capital markets, the increasingly powerful spy agencies & FVEYs and megacorporations. The aim since Blair has been to make the UK just like the US, where there is no real choice in elections.
Look at the US and its democracy – the unpopular candidates they get to choose from in presidential elections; candidates nobody really particularly admires. The US undoubtedly produces some of the finest minds on the planet, but don’t expect any of these to be allowed anywhere near the presidency. Highly principled people would ask too many questions – they’d represent a danger to the powers behind the throne listed above. How else can anyone explain why there is serious talk of Hillary running again in 2024 – due to no popular demand whatsoever. And names like Pete Buttigieg and the politically untried and untested Michelle Obama are in the frame? Again, not due to any real popular demand, purely because of name recognition for the latter.
No sane president would support all the military bases the US has covered the globe with (750 bases in at least 80 countries worldwide), or the vast military budget in peace time at the expense of taking care of the US population and its desperate infrastructure and healthcare shortcomings. The very pursuit of global hegemony itself could be questioned. So the elite have to impose from a narrow shortlist of people who’ve agreed to follow the script and smile for the camera. And the UK elite wish to ape that system.
As a Scottish Anglophile I share your hope of a salutary shock. Are you not being a bit pessimistic about a permanent Tory majority? That party increasingly dreads tactical voting far less a pact between Labour and the Liberal Democrats.
Recent by-elections suggest such Tory fears are far from groundless.
Would a Lab-Lib ‘progressive alliance’ be any more progressive than the last coalition government? Starmer is one of the most repressive authoritarians in western Europe while the Lib Dems are well to the right of the Tories economically.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2019-liberal-democrats-permanent-spending-surplus-363716
Just like the Communists and Democrats kicking the Japanese out of China.
She’s a very enthusiastic NATO warmonger:
>>>>
The Scottish government has pledged £65m to the war effort in Ukraine.
The contribution will make up part of the £1bn funding the UK government is providing to the Ukrainian military.
It will be used to help provide state-of-the-art equipment including air defence systems and vital kit for soldiers.
<<<<
Paying the NATO military-industrial complex tens of millions of Pounds, with Scottish taxpayers money which could so easily be used to fund health and education within Scotland for the benefit of the Scottish people, to buy weapons to perpetuate war in Europe is entirely characteristic of that bloody woman.
You'd think she's lining up a job for herself in Brussels or something.
I remember you being a very enthusiastic Hillary Clinton supporter and Russophobe. What is going on?
they are obviously an attention seeker
The Scottish Government refuses to set up clinics for the severity of total systemic inflammation and complications that long covid is for up to 100,000 Scots from children to working age people, sadly older Scots are no longer with us, none of the above had access to any treatment. It is galling to see 65 million pounds of earmarked Scottish budget being sent to Ukraine in the form of long range weaponary and contribution to the prolongation of the war.
Nobody in Scotland gave a mandate to the SNP to involve ourselves in wars or support for NATO.
So many people were being removed from the Electoral Roll without having moved house with a live registration to vote that it will only lead to a Florida-style coup if the Electoral Commission is now officially under the UKGov rather than covertly interfereing.
It is Johnson who has seized the money from the Scottish devolved budget, not a free Scottish choice.
I did wonder how long it would be before the SNP blamed the awfulness of Wee Nippy on Westminster.
It was entirely predictable that her feathering of her nest and ingratiating herself to NATO by pinching a few dozen tens of millions of Pounds from the health & education & roads budgets of Scotland, thus enhancing her prospects of a sinecure in Brussels, would be blamed on Westminster.
That reflexive crap of blaming everything on Westminster is so brain-stultifying – and it shows. It stops her supporters from thinking for themselves.
Encouraging nationalists to start thinking for themselves, instead of slavishly adhering to the Party line, is one of the reasons why Craig Murray has been persecuted so severely by the hierarchy of the SNP party, though I’m sure that even that too will be blamed on Westminster by the unthinkers.
I am not the SNP, so your accusation is way off with the fairies.
Entirely predictable that you would start spreading malicious and mendacious nonsense.
The £65million contribution was non-negotiable.
Pay now OR have your allocation slashed by Westminster.
Those were the terms and well you know it.
“The contribution will make up part of the £1bn funding the UK government is providing to the Ukrainian military.”
Which will end up in the pockets of the elitists and any arms that are provided will end up in the hands of unscrupulous brigands and be sold on. We’re being duped.
Maybe the Russians will return the favor after Indyref 2 and provide military aid to the UK government to crush the Scottish separatists. After all, what’s the fundamental difference between the Scots’ desire to secede from the UK and the Donbass residents’ desire to secede from Ukraine?
We’ve not been getting bombed for the last eight years…
True. So why does the Scottish Independence Party help the Ukronazis to bomb another independence movement? Independence for Scotland but subjugation by the Kiev neonazi regime for the Donbass? Even Craig seems confused on this point.
F**ked if I know…
Should that not be stated the other way round given Johnson’s iconic status with the Ukraine nationalist fanatics? Would not an appeal by Scotland for Russian support, as did LPR and DPR, with the idea of it joining an expanded BRICS be the one more likely to succeed? The RF might be attracted to the idea of having an exclave next to England. (All unlikely I know).
“The contribution will make up part of the £1bn funding the UK government is providing to the Ukrainian military.”
Can anyone explain why we are providing this funding? Ukraine is not in NATO and its wars have f*ck all to do with us.
This £65 million ‘contribution’ as you put it was hardly a voluntary act:
The Scottish Government either made the payment
OR
£65million would be deducted from future UK payments to Holyrood.
Of course..the truth doesnt suit your narrative…does it.
£65M buys an awful lot of these missile rounds, all tartan painted no doubt.
https://youtu.be/RPJyTyQyFLo?t=61
Never mind Scottish schools. Never minds Scottish hospitals. Never mind the quite literally shocking condition of the trunk roads in Scotland. The Azov Regiment and Right Sector neo Nazis now have the financial support and finest weaponry that the National Socialists of Scotland can buy with Scottish taxpayers’ money.
It’s enough to make a Saltyre cross!
You’d get 65 missiles I think.
Even the entire launch vehicle system plus support vehicle and 65 rounds doesn’t come close to £65M. Not even to a tenth of that much money.
Enough to fire off missiles for a day, maybe two. then a dead weapon.
Also £30m from Wales, and they’re not very happy about it either.
Reported today : Johnson insists Ukraine can push back the Russians.
How? How will they hold territory they’ve been unable to capture since 2014?
This govt’s whole ‘fight! fight! fight!’ encouragement seems utterly facile.
Ukraine is running out of men of fighting age and/or of the necessary front line fitness. Russia has much larger numbers in reserve, and resources to draw on. The bellicose ‘no surender and no negotiations’ contributions of Johnson, Wallace and Truss, when we’ve no skin in the game, seem nauseating. And that’s before you factor in the genuine risk of the use of battlefield tactical nuclear weapons, should Ukraine somehow, against all odds, manage to achieve such things.
The Russians are very clearly husbanding their resources, to avoid losing men. The Ukrainians have lost a lot, but they keep their losses secret, through their stand and fight policy.
There is no time to build new weapons for Ukraine, so the £65M is either in the form of existing UK weapons and £65M debited from some government account or other to order replacements, or it is being transferred to a foreign government to pay for weapons that they hold. It’s all just printed money anyway, the UK government is just allocating some of the expenditure to the Scottish account for political reasons.
In any case, that the weapons are of any use to the Ukranian army depends on whether they survive long enough to reach the front and whether, when they get there, there is anyone who knows how to use them.
Westminster deletes the Scottish Claim of Right.
https://twitter.com/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157
https://nitter.net/everywoman61/status/1542453901986865157
I wish you all good luck with your efforts, but you may have an uphill struggle.
Yahoo News: More than half of Scots do not want indyref2 next October, poll finds (20 Jun 2022) – by Lucinda Cameron, PA Scotland
And that is just the opinion on a referendum, not how they would vote.
Any survey on the legitimacy of the Neverendum strategy is unlikely to find a democratic majority in favour of such a nutty idea.
We who voted, did so on the uncontradicted understanding that it was a once in a generation thing.
Come back in 2032 and we’ll talk about it.
The answer to your question (how would they vote?) is contained in the article. 51% No : 49% Yes.
Do try harder.
Vivian O’Blivion
Amazing that it’s still so close really. Many obviously still hold true to how they voted in 2014 and that has got to be a good sign going forward. The young voted Yes, so demographics and time do favour independence.
Especially positive given the way the SNP have avoided the issue like someone with a nut allergy would avoid peanuts. ‘Unstoppable momentum’ – bigger than any one party or any politician? Independence should be seen as exciting and full of possibilities. But do you think the SNP control freak tendency can team up with Alba et al and put differences aside?
Opinion polls can be manipulated too, y’know. It doesn’t depend on what the question is. It all depends on how the question is put.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA
I recently saw you in an interview with G. Galloway on his MOATS.
I hope to see you again, but, this time on the subject of independence. It would be “interesting” 🙂
Lest anyone might forget, let’s remember the terms of the 670 pages of gobshite that was the White Paper upon which we who voted did so.
Page 3 (of the pdf version) said:
“A once in a generation opportunity to follow a different path, and choose a new and better direction for our nation”
Page 10 (of the pdf version) said:
“It is a rare and precious moment in the history of Scotland – a once in a generation opportunity to chart a better way.”
Uncharacteristically perhaps for Salmond, more so for Sturgeon, these were not weasel words. They formed a binding social contract to respect the democratic outcome of the Referendum.
Let’s not forget that.
If voters feel “once in a generation” should be taken literally, they’re perfectly free to express that opinion in the referendum by voting No.
That is very exactly what the voters did in the referendum, Goose.
Well do it again or ignore it altogether the choice is yours.
Nobody is asking unionists to lift a finger, so what exactly is the complaint?
Maybe a referendum should, by law, be held every 10 years on the proviso polls show support within a certain percentage margin. Unionists talk of the division the referendum unleashed, but the only people getting nasty in the 2014 campaign were the unionists and MSM. The union’s Westminster based defenders tried talking down Scotland, aided by snarling unionists planted in the BBC’s Question Time audience (typical).
For most pro-independence campaigners the 2014 campaign was a joyous celebration of Scotland and being Scottish. Bringing people from diverse areas together it boasted civic pride in run down areas of the country. Channel four news showed ordinary citizens debating the issue in universities, and in homes over tea and scones across the country, calmly and amicably. The ‘divisiveness’ is hugely exaggerated by unionists.
Story on the BBC rigging QT audiences here:
https://www.thenational.scot/news/19351206.question-time-people-keep-appearing-bbc-programme/
The story about former Ukip candidate Billy Mitchell aka “Orange Jacket Man” was quite big at the time. I believe Mr. Murray was touring Pakistan when the story broke and was all over social media. So blatant, I remember Mitchell claiming there was a lot more to it and he could go public if the press kept harassing him, but then he went silent. He was pictured in discussion with Baron Michael Forsyth of Drumlean and BBC producers before the QT show started. Which seems bizarre for an audience member.
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3853746/bbc-under-fire-failed-billy-mitchell-scots-ukip-question-time/
“these were not weasel words. They formed a binding social contract to respect the democratic outcome of the Referendum.”
Yeah, just like “Let’s spend it on the NHS” formed a binding social contract for the government to spend the money saved by Brexit on the health service. No you got it right the first time, the whole document was simply standard political “gobshite”.
Scotland can be independent while;
HOW EXACTLY???
We can’t
How come Scotland managed No 5 for a hundred years, then?
A lot more than only one hundred years!
It was the Scottish (Jacobite) royal family which started the Union. Remember?
1603 – 1707, a bit more than 100 years, but not much.
You know, I want another referendum but it will be a waste of time unless we get rid of postal voting, which is open to wide abuse and also make sure the votes are protected properly this time.
No votes turning up in private cars unescorted and plenty of international observers during counting.
Finally, the way things are going with HM Governments sabre rattling and financial and weapons support for the Ukrainian Nazis we may not need a referendum as we will no longer exist as a country.
I agree with that. We must be forearmed this time, call on international observers to see fair play and no votes ‘lost’ or added, and extra scrutiny for postal votes which should not be made easy to get.
I do not like the idea of a Section 30 as it could give Westminster the excuse to set the rules. We need to get the UN involved or the European court as the franchise must be restricted by removing those not permanently resident for at least 10 years, so no students, no people on a temporary contract or armed forces, and no votes for non-resident second home owners. How we avoid foreign interference will be difficult, given the way the British media and BBC are so anti-Independence, but even a curb on their activities might help. I would hope people in Scotland are more aware now of the bias than in 2014 and will not be fooled by lies about oil running out, pensions not being paid etc.
If you are going to win independence then it should be with a clear majority (> 55%) – anything less will simply create discord especially as the first referendum was supposed to settle the argument for a generation. If you put yourself in the ‘remainers’ camp, then you have to see it’s pretty annoying to see an attempted rerun – from their perspective the decision has already been made, and unless there has been a huge shift in public opinion (say a swing of 10% or more), repeated referendums until you get the answer you want are quite undemocratic [After leaving it won’t be practical to hold another referendum in 7 years to rejoin UK, which would be another argument for requiring a 55% vote share]. Now, if it is necessary to fiddle the voting rules (get rid of postal voting, try to deny vote to those groups less likely to support independence), then that is really scraping the barrel.
The Treaty of Union vote in 1706 was not a majority. By today’s standards it would be considered electoral fraud. Then again, that could be why we have such ‘discord’.
In 1706 England wasn’t a democracy either, so neither the majority of English or the majority of Scotts endorsed the 1706 union. That is history that cannot be changed. I understand that English landowners introduced into Scotland no doubt have also helped to nurture unionism – but again that is history that cannot be changed. Today, all Scottish people regardless of their ancestral history have to be treated as equals. Most (almost all) people in Scotland probably cannot trace their ancestors back to 1706 and to a large extent that question is irrelevant – what counts is the way people feel today.
I hate to be patronizing here but I think lots of people are unaware of the situation and how it works, so I’m going to spell it out:
INDEPENDENCE is the goal. As myself, Craig and others have already said, this is the time to work together to achieve that goal.
When Scotland becomes independent, then the very next day, Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP will immediately be in charge of running the country. THAT is the time to start attacking her, the SNP and their record in government. NOT before. That should be basic common sense to any independence supporters.
I consider the website ‘Wings Over Scotland’ to be the enemy within and they’ve already started the ball rolling by publishing ‘SNP bad’ material today and it’ll get even worse as time goes on, and it won’t take much for their poison to spread since they’re doing the Unionists’ job for them. Genuine independence supporters MUST combat these stories as we approach independence. The stories and stuff may well be real and genuine but this is NOT the time to be spreading them if we want people onside.
I think that websites like Wings are going to be a huge problem in our quest for independence unless we nip them in the bud now.
I don’t have any influence apart from mumping my gums on here but people like Craig Murray, Alex Salmond and others DO have influence and they should maybe speak to websites like Wings and others and tell them to keep a lid on it until we get independence.
Bad news travels faster than good.
So, in the one party state, only Völkischer Beobachter will be permitted to be published.
Anything else will be banned.
National Socialism at its best!
If the Führerin had her way, Salmond and Murray and the Rev Stuey would be left to rot in Langsdorf or Saughton or the Bar-L.
No more pesky jury trials for defendants either. Just whisk the guilty bastards through the dock while the judge puts his or her black cloth atop the wig to pronounce sentence.
I never said anything else should be banned. I’m saying that we present a united movement to get us over the finishing line and THEN the dirt can be dished. The SNP was designed for only one purpose, to achieve Scottish Independence and once that happens, the SNP is redundant anyway so another political party will take over or a new one will be formed.
No one who is serious about Scotland gaining its independence goes out of its way to split the movement. That’s stupidity on stilts so the only conclusion I can draw from it is that Wings is the enemy within. The guy who runs it is a Lib Dem at heart, he has Unionism coursing through his veins and at the moment, it seems to be only myself and one other poster on this blog who can see through him.
For this independence push to work, we HAVE to be united. Craig Murray has made this clear, Alex Salmond has made this clear, I’m making it clear and no doubt others are making it clear in their own way, but this simple fact has to be drummed into people.
That’s not National Socialism, it’s common sense at its most basic.
“present a united movement to get us over the finishing line and THEN the dirt can be dished”
Very exactly what happened with those other National Socialists. Night of the long knives etc.
“For this independence push to work, we HAVE to be united.“
So how does saying “I consider the website ‘Wings Over Scotland’ to be the enemy within” help with that unity, what do you think?
Of course I’m fucking not a “Lib Dem at heart”, ya clown. I’m someone who lives in a Lib Dem/Tory marginal and I’m not going to vote for the Tories, am I? But I haven’t voted Lib Dem in 7 years either. I’ve spoiled every ballot since 2015.
Perhaps Sturgeon is splitting the movement and should stand down in the name of unity.
I look forward with keen interest to your attempts to “nip me in the bud”.
Excuse the language but what a fucking half wit MST001 is. Calls for unity and in the same breath attacks Wings as being the enemy within.
MST001’s comments most certainly give insight to the mushy heads that some poor unfortunates have, and I think Rev Stu, and indeed the wider readership, will most certainly have the measure of this.
Critical and positive comment and analysis is essential as we move forward. Currently retired, but still wide awake, I’m hopeful that Mr Campbell will continue to support positively and constructively, as he has done in the past.
Hurry up and get back in the saddle Rev, the media is asking you to slice and dice it and serve it up for the dog’s breakfast.
WOW!! I take this as an admission that you’re going to continue in your efforts to encourage your followers to split the indy movement, no matter what because you view my words as a challenge!
This is Craig Murray’s blog and I have no inclination to drag it into a slanging match but yeah, ‘I look forward with keen interest to your attempts to “nip me in the bud”’ is a pretty telling statement of intent.
You ARE an enemy of independence. Damned by your own words.
Roll on 2032, eh!
So the idea here. It sounds like Craig recognises only maybe 28% consistently want independence, but if you maintain an intense campaign then on the old premise that the mass or the mob goes along with the message the percentage will go up over 50%. That sounds like a stunt.
If there is a real and permanent starting point of support in excess of 50 to 60%% then that might suggest that when things get economically tough people might dig in and perservere.
However, if the starting point is low and the majority just come along for the ride then when the tide changes there will be a wake up and dissatisfaction.
Craig M, with the characteristic intellectual honesty which has got him into so much deep shit so many times, openly admits that he’s “not a believer in referenda, or other forms of direct democracy”.
“It sounds like Craig recognises only maybe 28% consistently want independence“
That’s not what Craig said at all. What he said was this:
“Famously the last Independence campaign started with polls showing 28 to 32% in support of Independence, and finished on polling day on 45%.“
So, by the same token, if the Indy Ref 2 campaign kicks off at 49% as it was in the latest poll, then it should end up at around 60% to 70%. You’ll be well satisfied with that then 🙂
Craig, you’ll perhaps have seen my comments on Wings re your clarion call. If you haven’t, I believe it’s admirable, but wrong.
Why does all the mature, reasonable, cool-headed behaviour have to come from those such as yourself, and Alex, who have dared defy Sturgeon’s plans or offended her in some way?
She can continue to prance about on various global platforms masquerading as ‘an intellectual’ because she reads Tartan Noir? She can have all the 2014 ‘troops’ gather behind her master plan without so much as a hint of apology for the real hurt and division she’s caused to innumerable individuals and the cause as a whole?
I’m sorry Craig. You know I admire you hugely. But I’m not the only one who cannot and will not wheesht for Nicola. For me, the key word in your article is ‘wholehearted’. Many of us spent time and money we couldn’t afford in the run-up to 2014. We did it because we really believed, wholeheartedly, that the prize was within grasp. This time, it isn’t. I’m sorry but, with her at the forefront? it really isn’t.
So you’ll be voting NO then?
Fine.
You’re a Unionist.
That’s going too far Tam, just because Ian doesn’t like Sturgeon. There were people in the first Ref who couldn’t stand Salmond but still voted YES. And Ian was SSP until it fell into RISE.
There’s over 15 months to go to Indy Ref 2, and plenty of time for people to refocus.
Meanwhile, blog wars aren’t helping …
Tam, I’m sure you can do better than that.
In any case, you and many others are going to have to come to terms with the fact that Sturgeon is despised by many in a way that Alex Salmond never was. AS was disliked because some saw him as too cocky, a bit of wide-o. But Sturgeon is something else – viewed as a manipulative lying sociopath who has yet to be fully exposed and, of course, punished. As and when everything is revealed (if it ever is) she and her husband are going to jail.
Good luck glossing over that when you’re out canvassing.
the naming of the date might possibly open things up. At the moment the ‘out for no.1 crowd’ are dominant but there are hundreds of trained honest people who want to work for the betterment of Scotland, With expertise in al fields.
Obviously we are struggling. I still have some hope but not before the punters are able to discern truth from lies.
Ian.
I can’t stand Sturgeon she done terrible things to the indy movement and to Craig, and a few other die-hard indy supporters, however if there’s even the slightest chance that we could gain independence between now and 2024 (The GE) then I think we should go along with it, I’m not saying Sturgeon won’t stab us in the back again, but at the very least she’s making all the right noises which hopefully will galvanise the indy movement god knows it needs it.
I’m with Craig and Alex on this one.
We may not trust Sturgeon but a course has been set and I agree that we must all get behind that course.
The independence movement is bigger than Sturgeon and her clique. It is bigger than the SNP. And whilst many of us currently have reservations about the SNP, there are still many in that party who desire, like many outside the party, the goal of independence. Things change too. So let us all get behind this initiative. There will be lots of twists and turns. But with us united, with wind aplenty in our sails, we can chart the course, tacking as we go, whilst keeping an eye on how we go.
So let us set up our local groups, let us rekindle the spirit of 2014. This is a battle that can be won. We ran them close in 2014. Closer maybe than we realize. But we have the experiences of 2014 and that will stand us in good stead as we face the obstacles ahead.
BBC up to its usual tricks on Question Time last night, planting Tory councillors in the audience to ask questions and representing them as ordinary members of the public. On this occasion Angus Robertson was able to identify one, but only because he recognised him from his constituency.
If another referendum is permitted and Sturgeon connives again in the fiction that the BBC is balanced and impartial it will achieve the same result as last time, absolutely guaranteed. If she genuinely wants independence then an essential precursor must be educating Scots that the BBC is the British State’s primary propaganda arm, insidiously but implacably opposed to Scottish independence.
I’ll attempt to put a charitable explanation to Sturgeon’s performance during the Billy Mitchell scandal (much against my personal judgement).
Ahem, here goes. Sturgeon was showing “sisterly solidarity” with then BBC Shortbread, Director Donalda MacKinnon. This apparently trumps her responsibility to further the cause of independence. Makes you wonder why she doesn’t just feck aff and join the Women’s Equality Party.
This time round, BBC Shortbread is headed by a heterosexual male, so nae conflict of interest for the failed solicitor.
It was the same for Corbyn, on the election Question Time leadership special with the group of ‘Nuclear war fanatics’ badgering him on whether he’d be willing press the big red button? The group in the audience were clearly coordinating with each other and the tone was very, very aggressive. So much so, a woman in the audience pleaded ‘can we stop all this talk of nuclear Armageddon please?’ met by applause.
We need legislation, like other countries have, banning intel agencies from interference in the free media/press. The US has the first amendment, so their quality newspapers remain fairly free – far more objectivity in reporting than their UK equivalents. How can a controllled media function as a watchdog that can investigate and report on government wrongdoing? The answer is, it can’t.
Just spent time going through the Wings Over Scotland chat on Sturgeon’s indyplan.
The understanding of how a new referendum in 2023 pans out with it having to go before the courts, seems to be understood. But the acceptance that she can self-identify the next UK general election as a plebiscite on scotindependence is jaw dropping. It WON’T be a plebiscite, no matter what goes on the SNP election leaflets claiming otherwise…_
Take a look at the actual track record of three leaders in past GEs.
Which one do you think is most fit to lead the SNP to a good result in the next one?
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/04/snpsupport.jpg
In an alternate universe I’d like have added Craig Murray’s name to that list, but….
Follow the trend line in each case of those three.
If you insist on flogging a dead horse, then at least choose a competent jockey.