Climate, the science, politics, economics and anything else

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  • #80583 Reply
    michael norton

    “If the increase in human population is not understood to be the main driver of biodiversity implosion, then nothing will change.” MN October 28, 2021 at 07:16

    Just because some consider the World Human Population Growth is easing, that does not take away that since about 1900, the population of the World has about quadrupled. This in essence is the problem. All other bio matters evolve from this rapid increase of population.

    #80584 Reply

    Michael, Extinction Rebellion’s Principle One:

    We have a shared vision of change;
    – To make a world fit for generations to come.

    I’m pretty sure you support this principle. Humanity is making a world that is unfit for generations to come, and we, the people currently alive, have a moral duty to change that, because natural things now rapidly being destroyed took millions of years to come into existence. Humanity is destroying nature thousands of times faster than it can regenerate itself and only us in the present can change it. The faster we act, the less will be lost.

    In your October 27, 18:59 comment you wrote:

    “Many of these new borns want to fly, consuming aviation fuel at no tax. Many of these new borns will have Chinese electrical goods, which all use plastics made of oil, the Chinese use Coal to make electricity. People cut Tropical rainforest down to grow C4 plants.”

    The reason “People cut Tropical rainforest down to grow C4 plants” is because they’re paid to; it’s profitable. That’s also why people run airlines, make electrical products and extract oil; these things wouldn’t be available for wrecking the world unless people were being paid to do them. Under the current system, people need to do these things on order to get money to live – so there is some authority higher than people, some form of control, and it is money. The people can’t change unless and until the system of money is changed.

    Changing that system is what Extinction Rebellion is all about. In order to change it, we need enough people who are willing to take some kind of action against it. Precisely what actions they take are up to them; Principle 10:

    We are based on autonomy and decentralisation
    – We collectively create the structures we need to challenge power.

    XR members are only gluing themselves to roads because it was an idea someone had and it proved to work – it forces governments to take notice, and it gets reported, making people think. But XR do a lot of other things too, and anyone can come up with an idea and develop it within XR groups, or join in with some other members’ ideas.
    – – – – – – – –

    Michael, there’s a big difference between what we think, and how we think. It’s related to the difference between fact and opinion. Everyone should agree that toxic pollution makes people ill and can kill them. It’s just a fact, and we don’t abandon our personality by accepting it. A socialist may argue that nationalisation of industry is the way to stop toxic pollution, whereas a capitalist is likely to argue that strong laws will make industry clean up its act. An extreme libertarian might insist that eventually people will become aware of which companies are dumping toxins, boycott them and thereby drive them out of business – pure market dynamics. These are differences of opinion, but only liars would distort the public’s understanding of toxicity to trick us into supporting their preferred solutions, or thinking that there was no problem at all. Unforgivably, the system of money also pays people to craft very convincing lies. That’s why Extinction Rebellion’s First Demand is:

    Tell the Truth! about the climate and ecological emergency.

    You already agree that there’s an ecological emergency, and in this your thinking is already ahead of the media, who go on and on about climate and hardly ever mention the ongoing mass extinction caused by human activity. If we had time, I’m sure I could convince you that there is also a climate emergency, by consideration of observable facts – you did write that you’re open to being convinced. But right now I should go out and help with talking to the public and giving out leaflets.

    #80590 Reply
    michael norton

    “We cannot jump out of nuclear and stop being active in coal, and then wonder why energy prices are going up, Mangold told RT on the sidelines of the 14th Eurasian Economic Forum in Verona, Italy. I believe that nuclear will be important for the future in Europe.”

    Perhaps Europe is trying to de-carbonising too fast?

    Germans like burning coal and wood. They like Natural Gas but they do not like Nuclear Reactors, they do not trust them.
    Part of the not trusting Nuclear Reactors maybe be because of having to be dependent on the French?
    The French are threatening England with reducing the flow of electricity from the French Nuclear Reactors or of jacking up the price.
    If Germany allowed Germany to be over reliant on French Nuclear Reactors, who is to say the French would not try and leverage?
    You can’t run an massive economy with out massive energy.

    #80593 Reply
    michael norton

    I expect Clark is right. The nub will be convincing German voters that they should not want more stuff.
    If all reasonably well off people refused to fly to other countries. If they kept the same cooker for twenty years. If they kept the same cycle for twenty years. If the demanded that their food was not coated in plastic. If they stopped keeping cats and dogs. If they stopped buying stuff from Asia but instead made stuff at home, so the item only travelled a few miles from the manufacturer to the buyer. If people mended stuff we it broke, rather than just buy new from Asia.
    A lot of ifs. Clack is correct that ecological collapse is happening, now. What we seem to be not agreeing on is the cause. I doubt all ecological collapse is just because of burning fossil fuels. That is a part of the problem but it is not the nub of the problem. The nub of the problem in the increase in human numbers and the destruction of habitat that then ensues. Just concentrating on fossil fuels is doing us a disservice, it is missing the main target.

    #80594 Reply
    michael norton

    C4 plants utilise much less Carbon dioxide than other, older plants. C4 plants came into existence about the same time as Antarctica began to ice over. C4 plants came into existence because free Carbon dioxide in our atmosphere had reached the lowest ever level, since Earth first gained an atmosphere. Many of the plant based foods that humans have come to rely on, are C4 plants.
    Clearing the forests.
    Forests hold huge amounts of water. Forests transpire causing it to rain. Forests hold the ecosystem together. Forests retain the soil. In the first instance, often the most prolific crops can be grown by removing the forest. The soil is deep and fertile, it is alive with microorganisms, it is essentially those microorganisms that aid the flourishing of the forests.
    One the forest is removed, everything goes quickly downhill.
    It rains less. When it does rain, it is often more intense and washes the soil away. The microorganisms die out, the fertility of the soil dies out. Winds are more problematic, blowing away the dry soil. Fertilizers have to be used and irrigation employed, rather than the Earth managing itself, man is managing the Earth.
    The more men there are, the more managing that is required.
    All this plays out, even without using fossil fuels.

    #80601 Reply

    Pidgeon, I watched that video and it concurs with a similar finding that personality traits can similarly predict political leanings. What I don’t like is that the American interpretation of the terms ‘liberal’ and ‘conservative’ are used and conflated with a political affiliation. I don’t think that is as applicable in a European/UK (possibly anywhere outside of USA) context.

    In USA any idea of “free at the point of service” health care is seen as reds-under-the-bed communism by the conservative group yet in the UK, for instance, the NHS would have broad support from almost everyone regardless of how they vote. Public transport investment would similarly have broad support in the UK and Europe but not so much in USA.

    I believe we have to find an alternative to the left/right politics and realise that in some instances it is more benificial to be conservative in its truest sense and in others it is better to take a socialistic stance. We must all be open to new data or refined data on any subject. One’s views must be open to being updated and adjusted accordingly.

    I don’t know if you know of Jordan Peterson, a Canadian clinical psychologist and professor, who came to light for his opposition to gender language laws in Canada. He has a series of lectures on Personality and Its Transformations which although lengthy might interest you.

    #80605 Reply
    Pigeon English


    I agree with you on American perspective.

    My Wife likes JP but I am not big fan. He was supposed to have a discussion about socialism with a real lefty professor of Economics Richard Wolff but to big disappointment JP pulls out.

    I am still fascinated by conclusion that presenting facts and data on some people do not work and likewise playing feelings and emotion will not convince others.

    You say “We must all be open to new data or refined data on any subject”. To my frustration with “Conservative” mind this approach is most likely to fail.😀

    #80606 Reply

    Michael, 12:37

    * – “I doubt all ecological collapse is just because of burning fossil fuels.”

    You’re right; far from it.

    * – “Just concentrating on fossil fuels is doing us a disservice, it is missing the main target”

    It’s not Extinction Rebellion concentrating on fossil fuels; XR have been clear from our outset; it’s a climate and ecological crisis. But I know that the corporate media represent XR as “climate change campaigners”. They would help everyone if they’d learn to listen better.

    But climate change is the most urgent because greenhouse gases work like a blanket or a coat; you don’t immediately get warm when you put it on. You get warmer and warmer the longer you wear it, until your temperature reaches its new equilibrium. But unlike a coat you can’t just take the emissions out again if you get too hot. Like putting sugar in your tea emissions take moments to put in, but it takes nature decades to take them out.

    The greenhouse gases that human activities are releasing right now will remain in the atmosphere for decades, and they’ll be trapping extra heat for all those years, so the temperature will climb and climb. That’s why we need to curtail emissions now; the longer we delay the higher the temperature will peak at, decades in the future.

    Then there’s ocean acidification. The carbon dioxide in the atmosphere gets dissolved in water slightly, becoming carbonic acid. In the oceans this neutralises some of the alkalis, decreasing the alkalinity. In places, this is damaging the base of the food chain. If it goes too far it will be catastrophic.

    * – “If all reasonably well off people refused to fly to other countries. If they kept the same cooker for twenty years. If they kept the same cycle for twenty years. If the demanded that their food was not coated in plastic. If they stopped keeping cats and dogs. If they stopped buying stuff from Asia but instead made stuff at home, so the item only travelled a few miles from the manufacturer to the buyer. If people mended stuff we it broke, rather than just buy new from Asia.”

    But michael, regulating things is what governments are supposed to do. You can’t just buy cruise missiles or uranium; such things are regulated by governments. Drivers can’t just park anywhere they want to, because it would cause too many problems. Even using sexist or racist language has laws against it, because of the hateful attitudes they normalise and spread.

    Air miles could be rationed, for instance. Work out how many total air miles per year are sustainable, and evenly distribute tokens for them throughout the entire world population. Poorer people and people who don’t want to fly could sell them, bring in some money from the rich parts of the world. Emissions themselves could be rationed, tokenised and distributed in this way.

    These are just my ideas, it isn’t up to me but my point is twofold: (1) It is not beyond the wit of man to find ways to regulate things, but (2) it must be governments that do so.

    But governments and media have been putting a certain idea in our heads for decades, that “saving the planet” (dumb soundbite) is purely down to individual choices. Well, whether we may possess slaves or not is no longer a personal choice; governments made laws against that. How much noise we make, how our house discharges its sewage, and how we behave in public are all regulated. Things are discouraged through tax, eg. tobacco and fuel duty, and things are encouraged with subsidies or public supply, eg. medicines.

    Governments depict environmental concerns as individual responsibilities to avoid making rules that people wouldn’t like and thus losing the next election. But the children and grandchildren looking back from our future will see it very differently – as a massive abdication of responsibility, criminally negligent.

    #80621 Reply
    Pigeon English


    less extreme example but equally good is child labour.

    Market Fundamentalism (Economics) tell us as long there are people willing
    to employ children and children willing to work it should not be a problem.

    Basic law in Economics of supply and demand and yet no one is advocating going back to those times in civilized world (yet). Not sure about JRM opinion on that.Of course countries doing that have Competitive advantage and world cooperation and rules are needed.

    Things you mention should be part of Political Economy and would be much more difficult to put reactionary opinions as Economics Gospel. As I mentioned in one of mine previous post “Chicago boys” and followers do not like term Political Economy.Economics is Science not to be influenced by politics. I believe they succeed to make people believe that politics can not influence Economics and Politics should stay out of “Free Market Economy”

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by degmod.
    #80625 Reply
    Pigeon English

    As an Atheist I can’t believe I am writing this(don’t tell my family and friends they would die from 😂)

    Jesus did not have many followers in the beginning and his efforts were doomed and futile!

    #80630 Reply
    michael norton

    In the Bible it apparently states “Go Forth and Multiple”

    well, in a few thousand years, there has been a lot of multiplying.
    A climactic forest holds a huge amount of biodiversity, it holds a huge amount of water, it holds the topsoil in place, it reduces wind, it levels out temperature differences, it is the keystone of ecological sustainability on land.
    If you remove that keystone bad things happen.
    Apparently, agriculture started in the Middle East about twelve thousand years ago. Cut down trees to sew cereal. Invent irrigation. Increase human population. Become reliant of cereal. Invent civilization. Invent weapons (you now have something to protect or conversely, steal). Invent armies and war, enslave others. Desire more stuff.
    And, so on.

    #80645 Reply
    michael norton

    Quote – the 19th Eurasian Economic Forum

    “On the sidelines of the 19th Eurasian Economic Forum, which was held in Verona, Italy, it was also noted that European countries are very interested in ensuring that logistics corridors through Eurasia are as efficient as possible. However, after the pandemic, it is necessary not to just increase production and restore logistics, the forum participants are sure. The corona crisis showed that it is necessary to reorient the economy to reduce consumption.”

    That the first time I have ever heard that view.

    It is key.

    “The corona crisis showed it is necessary to reorient the economy to reduce consumption”

    We have to learn to desire less.
    We should not be always aiming for growth. Some growth, in renewables and the reforestation of the Earth but personal consumption of tat should be minimalised.

    #80650 Reply

    Michael, it’s overshoot. People were at the mercy of nature, food stocks didn’t last through winter, in some places water supply wasn’t secure, basic medicine wasn’t understood, people had six or eight children so that two would survive to have children themselves. It is natural for people to want more under such circumstances.

    Only a minority live like that now, but people keep wanting more for a number of reasons. Societies get into habits; striving for more has served humanity well, but now much of humanity has overshot. The system of trade was founded on exchange for mutual advantage, and that worked well, but as it ran out of demand for necessities it turned increasingly to satisfying desires and then, as those desires were satisfied it turned to stimulating desires to boost demand. So now we have advertising, marketing, and social status that is awarded according to affluence. Then there’s inequality. When people see others with vastly more than themselves, it is natural for some of them to want as much. And the media ensures that we see the mega-rich and their lifestyles day in, day out; this sets up the targets that the advertising aims for.

    Technology has changed things stunningly fast; just the changes in my lifetime are overwhelming, I live in a different world from the one I grew up in, and such rapid change and lack of stability is not normal in human history. And it takes time for societies to adapt. It takes time, and awareness of the need to change; someone has to point out the dangers, the losses, and the alternatives.

    And then it takes time to change politics, and this is all time we do not have. People are good at reacting to threats that arrive suddenly, but ecological degradation is cumulative, it often takes time to be recognised, and although lightning fast on the geological timescale it is slow compared with human life spans. It is creeping up on us and our governments aren’t reacting fast enough.

    #80655 Reply

    Michael – “We have to learn to desire less.”

    And we can learn to share more. Maybe we don’t need one of everything each, to use until its planned obsolescence expires, dispose of it and buy a new one. It moves money about and makes profit, but it’s bad for our world. Maybe we can pool our resources, and share our skills. Maybe more community workshops would help, where people teach each other how to fix things and swap useful junk. Maybe we should have community kitchens, where people cook for each other and teach each other their best recipes.

    But town centres have been taken over by retail, which seems to be the only activity that can afford town centre business rates. Even necessities like grocery and hardware are being pushed out out to the peripheries, where people need a car to access them. Phones, fashion, finance, betting, pubs, clubs and restaurants are all you’ll find in the high street these days – luxuries and money.


    #80659 Reply

    Pigeon English – “Jesus did not have many followers in the beginning and his efforts were doomed and futile!”

    Oh I dunno; everyone’s knows of him a couple of millennia later. Gave up owning things, went out teaching generosity, tolerance and love while exposing hypocrisy in the power structure, propaganda was arranged and he got tortured to death. The message gets obscured but the people don’t forget; everyone knows he was right.

    #80682 Reply
    michael norton

    After watching the Andrew Marr show, today, I was rather impressed with his chat with Greta Thunberg.

    She claimed, even now, China is constructing one new Coal fired power station, each week. She said it is her and other people’s duty to make a fuss as people cannot demonstrate in China.

    That is very telling. Even if there are climate worriers in China, people who are against ever more stuff, ever more burning of Coal, they will not be allowed to demonstrate.
    So the question then is what now |¦| if the Chinese Regime refuse to burn less Coal?

    #80697 Reply

    “So the question then is what now if the Chinese Regime refuse to burn less Coal?”

    Pay China to burn less coal? Richer countries burned China’s share long since. But similarly, China probably owes a share to countries that industrialised even later. But it’s obviously unfair that the richest nations started early and so they get away with having used coal to grow their economies, whereas for later nations that route is closed.

    Russian gas has to get to China. That’d cut emissions while China is building more solar. So maybe the US should stop its sabre rattling (which is actually just a proxy for commercial competition) and instead build a mega-pipeline between its two former rivals.

    #80723 Reply
    michael norton

    Clark, I think you will find people in China were burning Coal before anyone in the West were burning Coal.
    It was just explained on Radio 4.

    It is the keep Xi Jinping in seat. He hopes to make himself life-Time-Ruler of China under the present regime.
    Although at some time in the future he will begin to look at Global Warming, not till he is ensconced as Life-Time-Ruler.
    They will continue to burn more and more Coal, that is why he will not come to Glasgow, he does not want people to point that out to him. He will not even take part in a video call.

    So it is not that ordinary peasants do not have worries. It is the head of the snake who wants to stay head of the snake, at all costs.

    #80729 Reply

    Michael – “people in China were burning Coal before anyone in the West were burning Coal.”

    That may be true, but the USA and Europe have both burned more carbon than China has. And on average, a resident of the UK still burns more carbon than a resident of China, and a US resident far more than that.

    Why, in your opinion, do residents of the USA and Europe have more right to make emissions than a resident of China?

    This sort of attitude may be why China is unwilling to reduce emissions faster? What would you do in China’s position? The others had already eaten two thirds of the cake, but they call your group greedy unless you give up half of what’s left. And all the while, their people are eating cake faster then your people. You might not want to go to their party, especially as they all have the lurgy, they imprison your executives and keep wielding knives at you.

    #80730 Reply

    With an attitude like that, you might wonder if they’re really serious about eating less cake themselves. Especially as they maintain well-armed gangs that keep looting cake shops.

    #80740 Reply
    michael norton

    I think Xi Jinping wants the cake and he wants to devour it, all of it.
    The regime in China does not allow freedom of thought, unless you think how they want you to think, essentially it is still 1984, in Communist China.

    If there comes a time in the near future that the Chinese Economy goes in to reverse, then the whole rotten edifice falls down. He must keep his Chinese Balls in the air, at least untill he becomes Life-Time-Ruler with absolute power.

    #80770 Reply
    Pigeon English


    I think Xi is monitoring Royal navy and Taiwan and doesn’t want to risk going to Plague island!

    You did not inform us that China and Russia had joint patrol in the Pacific.

    Maybe there are more urgent issues than blah blah blah in Glasgow😏

    #80772 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Allegedly Boris fell asleep and sleepy Joe as well!

    Uk is leading to sunny uplands!

    #80782 Reply
    Pigeon English


    blames China for everything but the elephant in the room is India.

    In 1980 India had about 700 mill and China 1 Billion!

    Now they have about the same population or China grew by 50% while India by 100%.

    China’s CO2 emission is 10 but India’s is 2.5. Should India develop or stop developing for good of humanity and the western life style?

    #80808 Reply

    It is obvious what needs to be done; humanity needs to share instead of compete. There is plenty for everyone if all were shared.

    Sharing is how groups who become isolated survive; there are hundreds of such stories, after shipwrecks or aircraft crashes. The single exception is fiction, Lord of the Flies, but real groups of people who get isolated behave nothing like that, in fact they do the opposite, they share their resources and skills.

    #80821 Reply
    michael norton

    Quote “As soon as this news came out, all the old people near me ( in China) went crazy, panic buying in the supermarket,” one user wrote on the Chinese social media site Weibo.

    Chinese Communist Regime have suggested people stock up on basics, as perfect storm coming.

    I know that a super big development company is on the edge of collapse.
    Apparently part of the thinking of the Regime has been continual; growth and as everybody knows you can not have forever growth, for that way lies catastrophic collapse.

    #80858 Reply
    Pigeon English

    When I was a child in 70’s if my memory is right (doubt since I can’t find the links) we are set a goal to eliminate hunger in the world by 2000. Have we achieved any target since 2000?

    Only the Chinese Communist Party(Regime) has achieved something to reduce hunger!!

    In 2015, agenda 2030 was signed. We are nearly in 2022 and what are probabilities that in the next 8 years those commitments will be achieved?

    “I know that a super big development company is on the edge of collapse”.


    Is it Evergrande? And then what? Is that the beginning of the fall of China or we should take investment out?

    #80867 Reply
    Pigeon English

    M N
    I know that a super big development company is on the edge of collapse.

    Why don’t you tell me now ? You want me to lose millions because I invested in China regime.

    I took my millions earlier😂. Warn me about UK companies and Brexit news! I lost my money investing in  shipping company without ships but make good profit on 37 Billion track and trace system. PPI is really good system . Now I will invest in companies providing British jobs for British people!

    #80868 Reply
    michael norton

    PE, yes Evergrande.
    I was out for a walk today, very cold, full Winter coat time.
    I was chatting about this with my friend.
    He said the problem in China is the loaned money, when Evergrande goes down, it will take the banks with it.
    Evergrande cannot ever pay off the loans, all they can hope to do is pay off some of the installments but if a bank insists Evergrande pays what it owes, Evergrande, will totally collapse, taking the banks with it.
    There is a perfect storm coming for China.
    That storm has been stoked by the Chinese Regime. The stoking is loaning money to pay for ever more schemes, such as new airports, such as Belt and Road, such as Three Gorges Dam, such as North South Canal.
    The piper needs paying but there is no real money left.

    #80872 Reply
    michael norton

    PE, the mode of operations for China, is to make things happen fast by command.
    So China has apparently had a growth rate of about seven percent for decades, ever expanding the base of the Pyramid, at the top of this Pyramid, currently sits Xi Jinping as the overloard of all China. You can keep loaning money at a fast rate as long as the GDP keeps growing but unless you gradually ease off the throttle it will all crash and burn.
    Although they might have just started to gently ease the throttle, they were hit with unexpected multiple whammy.
    One Whammy was Donald Trump, who had sussed them, Donald was no longer going to buy everything from China, while fat Americans sat watching daytime T.V. eating popcorn. Donald understood that America was failing. America, needed to start making things again.
    With the pipeline, Donald said the Iron must be mined in America. The Coal must be mined in America. The Steel must be made in America. The Pipes must be made in America. The Pipeline enterprise must be undertaken by an American firm.
    No more everything from China. Then the pandemic hit. China got off lightly with the pandemic but their customers fell by the wayside. Nobody was buying anything for a year.
    So China pumps more money into infrastructure in China. Then Awareness of Global Warming strikes.

    Make local, buy local, we are told, want less stuff.
    Make things last.

    China has primed its pumps but their economy is now melting down, with the collapse of banks, next along the road.
    This is why Evergrande is on the precipice.

    #80915 Reply
    michael norton

    Slightly more involved than I imagined, Evergrande owns part of Shengjing Bank.
    In 2015, Shengjing Bank announced it would issue “offshore RMB bonds”

    This might get us to the proportions of the Great Banking Crisis of 2007.
    Where Gordon Brown “saved the world”

    This is Pyramid stuff, ochestrated stuff.
    The growth of China has not happened organically, it has been demanded to happened by their High Command.

    #80916 Reply
    Pigeon English
    #80923 Reply
    michael norton

    “Earlier this year, the government singled out atomic power as the only energy form with specific interim targets in its official five-year plan. Shortly after, the chairman of the state-backed China General Nuclear Power Corp. articulated the longer-term goal: 200 gigawatts by 2035, enough to power more than a dozen cities the size of Beijing.”

    so the Chinese High Command have not yet accepted that the game is up.
    By the game I mean continual fast expansion.
    Soon, there will be no world left to save.
    This is ghastly beyond belief.

    #80932 Reply
    Pigeon English


    – Do you want China to emit less CO2 or not?

    What is your suggestion on how to replace coal burning powerstation?

    – You told us about Von der Leyen trip Vienna- Bratislava but nothing about

    BJ trip Glasgow-The Garrick Club in London

    Boris Johnson has been accused of “staggering hypocrisy” after he took a private jet back from the Cop26 climate
    summit to attend a private members’ club dinner in London.

    The Tuesday night dinner at The Garrick Club in the West End was for a reunion of Daily Telegraph journalists.

    – You talk about France and EU corruption but not mention lastest Corruption by British Regime.

    Mp receiving big money for lobbying his mates.

    – Apparently some UK farmers are exporting meat to be butchered in EU and than returned back. How sustainable, (Pork to Nederland, Beef to Ireland). Can’t the English not tranche a pig? Every peasant in Eastern Europe can do it!!!! Not many can tranche a cow! BTW butchering is skillful operation and yet in English we use it as destroying something in unskillful way. IMO driving lorries and buses is a skill as well.

    #80937 Reply
    michael norton

    PE, we are exploring some fundamental questions here.

    Yes, it would be lovely if China weaned off Coal, they could make a start by not constructing a new Coal Fired Power Station, each week. China have a lot of wind turbines and a lot of Solar Farms and a lot of Hydroelectricity plants.

    What China is doing very wrong, is never ending expansion, the world can’t sustain this growth, they need to just stop but they will not stop untill the Great Collapse, which is just around the corner.

    The whole world must stop buying stuff from China. They are like abusers, with their growth, there is only one world.

    #80940 Reply
    Pigeon English


    on so many occasions you pointed out that China is Command Economy and you believe the following.

    “Evergrande cannot ever pay off the loans, all they can hope to do is pay off some of the installments but if a bank insists Evergrande pays what it owes, Evergrande, will totally collapse, taking the banks with it.
    There is a perfect storm coming for China.”

    So you believe that “Regime” will let the whole economy collapse because of 300 Billion liabilities?

    IMO Regime tells the Banks what to do and not the other way around like in our democracy. We do what “Masters of the Universe”(Bankers) tell us.

    Either is Regime or Free Market Economy. It can not be both!

    Evergrande is not the bank.It does have real assets as well. Trouble started in late September and beginning of Oct.

    In the meantime EG paid dividends. If anyone get screwed it will be investors! It is up to competent people in CCP to decide what action is the best in the interest of China. Regime can tell the bamks to bail it out or screw investors. Evergrande will be saved!

    #80945 Reply
    michael norton

    I do not know but I think China is Command Economy, then also capitalist but under censure of Communist Regime, alright making money as long as you do not in any way upset the High Command. You certainly cannot speak out against the High Command.
    A sort of mix between Brave New World and 1984 but with huge reeducation camps.

    I am not sure what their ideology is?

    #81025 Reply
    Pigeon English

    Few basic rules of Capitalism and Market economy.

    – Purpose of Capital is to multiply itself and make profits.

    So if Investing in China gives better profits Capital will go there until investing in other country makes more prifits. Brexiter and patriot Dyson moved operations to Singapore😀

    – Market “fundamentalism” tells us that

    a) if importing coal in 70’s and 80’s from Poland is cheaper than having your own then let’s close the mines. (miners don’t vote Conservative)

    b) If importing meat from NZ and AUS is cheaper let’s do it (farmers do vote Conservative but there are not that many).

    c) If you can not compete with the world your Industry should die out (farming and manufacturing). It was never said by leading Brexiters. Most of them are connected to Finance (strongly competitive industry). In most of the Trade deals services and Finance industry is not included it is just goods.

    M Thatcher did not get out from coal because of ecological consideration! After discovery of oil and gas in the North sea UK went for Gas and Oil power plants. Claiming the high moral ground is disingenuous!!!!!

    #81051 Reply
    michael norton

    I think Hilda was an early uptaker of the theory “Global Warming”, by trade she was a chemist.
    Correct, cheaper to buy in timber from Canada, the Baltic and Russia, than grow at home.
    Correct, cheaper to buy in Coal from Poland and crush Coal unions in Britain.
    Then in the eighties there was the unimaginable boom in Oil from the North Sea.
    I never understood, why it needed to be extracted – flat out?
    Maybe Hilda had known at some point in the future there would be a movement of “Keep it in the ground”.
    Then there was the Natural Gas boom.
    This transformed energy in the U.K.
    We could start winding down the Coal industry and start winding down the Coal Fired Power Plants, in favour of Natural Gas.
    It gave the country an infrastructure boom, as everything was converted from Coal Gas to Natural Gas.

    Then in 2021 the price of Natural Gas went through the roof.
    Do not keep all your eggs in one basket.

    #81057 Reply
    michael norton

    “Dash for Gas”

    “An underpinning factor in the dash for gas was the recent development of North Sea gas.
    Also the decline in wholesale gas prices”

    Several things came together under Hilda.
    Privatisation, getting the Coal miners back for what they did to Ted Heath ( Three Day Week), |¦| the drop in Natural Gas prices. A Big Kick-Start to infrastructure in the U.K.
    Pretty well, everything was going well with Natural Gas being the base load for electricity delivery in the U.K. untill the pandemic hit.
    Or more specifically as we climbed out of the economic hole of the pandemic.
    Perhaps when Nord Stream Two comes on line, Natural Gas prices will drop?
    Iran has the world’s second largest proved Natural Gas Reserves.
    Yet America does everything in its power to fuck them up?

    There is more than enough Natural Gas in the World, for several hundred years.

    This immense increase in Natural Gas prices is partially a response to the pandemic but there must also be more beneath the surface?

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