Vaccine contaminants and safety


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    • #45309 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      The Mods invited us to continue vaccine discussion here.
      I’ll start off by reproducing some of the discussion from the thread ‘How To Spot A Twitter Troll’. I may possibly have missed some comments, but I don’t think so.
      ‘Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 01:36
      I trust these two links won’t be judged O/T, as they both are about interference with what we access online:
      ‘Who Created Facebook? New Letter from Alleged Insider Claims Zuckerberg is a Frontman for Military Intelligence’:
      http://freedom-articles.toolsforfreedom.com/who-created-facebook-zuckerberg-dossier-darpa-cia/
      and: ‘EXCLUSIVE: Google to block all anti-cancer, “anti-vax” and anti-GMO websites at the browser level as tech giant goes all-in with pharma drug cartels’:
      https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-07-02-google-to-block-all-anti-cancer-anti-vax-and-anti-gmo-websites-at-the-browser-level.html
      The strong suspicions that these giant sites, Facebook, Twitter, Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc are hand-in-glove with the ‘Security’ Services are almost certainly spot on, even to their inception.

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 05:11
      Paul
      Not so much OT as OTT. We are all aware of the manipulations of Google but what you get reading Natural news and Organics is a series of articles each referencing each others’ articles or their own articles with allegations based on zero evidence just statements. It is this sort of thing that gives adversaries a chance to label people as conspiracy theorists. And to lump weed killers with vaccines and chemotherapy is just plain ignorant. Please do not take these hoax websites at face value be more critical and seek independent evidence and find out a bit more about how vaccines have transformed the prevention of many diseases and how chemotherapy, a crude first step in treating cancers, is evolving.
      Anyway thanks for reminding us not to consult these two websites in future.

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 12:04
      @ SA July 3, 2019 at 05:11
      As you are aware this is not the place to argue vaccinations etc. Some articles in Natural News I agree with, others I don’t. The point is, blanket banning because the site questions ‘Official Narratives’ is blatant censorship, and to be deplored.
      This site has frequently been attacked by ‘forces’ in support of the PTB; would you be happy if Craig’s alternative to official ‘narratives’ was also censored?

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 16:14
      As far as I know Craig never publishes ‘fake news’. These sites do and are misleading and dangerous and there is no loss if they are censored in my opinion.

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 16:59
      @ SA July 3, 2019 at 05:11
      ‘… And to lump weed killers with vaccines and chemotherapy is just plain ignorant…’
      Perhaps it is you that needs to watch where you get your info from – there are a slew of reports about Glyphosate being found in vaccines – are they all fake news?
      ‘Glyphosate Found in Childhood Vaccines’: https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/glyphosate-found-childhood-vaccines
      ‘…The ever-present narrative that vaccines are perfectly safe is falling apart after testing shows that many childhood vaccines contain the carcinogenic chemical glyphosate

      Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Monsanto’s flagship herbicide Roundup and hundreds of other herbicides, has been found in vaccines. Moms Across America received preliminary screening results from Microbe Inotech Laboratories Inc. of St. Louis, Missouri, which showed:

      MMR II (Merk) vaccine had 2.671 parts per billion (ppb) of glyphosate
      DTap Adacel (Sanofi Pasteur) vaccine had 0.123 ppb of glyphosate
      Influenza Fluvirin (Novaris) 0.331 ppb of glyphosate
      HepB Energix-B (Glaxo Smith Kline) 0.325 ppb of glyphosate
      Pneumonoccal Vax Polyvalent Pneumovax 23 (Merk) had 0.107 ppb of glyphosate
      The MMR II vaccine had levels up to 25 times higher than the other vaccines. Following our test, additional independent tests have confirmed these findings at or above the same levels. The tests were conducted using the ELISA method….’
      Cast off your blinkers.

      Reply ↓
      Kempe
      July 3, 2019 at 07:11
      Good for Google and about time. It’s taken Facebook long enough to take down anti-vax sites and those pushing fake cancer cures.

      Reply ↓
      nevermind
      July 3, 2019 at 11:27
      Can you name any of the fake sites,Kempe, so we can stop wasting our time on them? Denial of facts do not equate with superior knowledge,imho.
      The derision of natural drugs that have been used for thousands of years and, shown drastically in current days, can help people, especially young children from epilepsy, reducing 200 tremors/day to almost none, without ever been scientifically assessed, and what was a large study in1947, coming out with the same conclusion,i.e. that this natural drug helps, was suppressed and buried.

      They knew this for 5 decades, but still send thousands to prison, declared them deranged criminals, and much more. Now big pharma wants to lay their hands and control a natural drug everyone has been growing for themselves for decades.

      Add to this, two Tory’s are growing 40 acres under police protection and with full knowledge of the cartel/Home office who sanctioned this cutting edge business for the Adkins family, whilst busting small scale growers nationwide.

      Thats is only one example, but a very big one, and the commercialisation of this drug in this country, will for years be tinged with the smell of corrupt self serving Tories who kowtow to big pharma and their,often, obsessive pricing.
      looking forward to hear your fake cancer story.

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 16:19
      I agree mostly with what you say but these are two separate problems. One is that Big Pharma is out to make big money, mostly by charging a lot for drugs developed by others and this sharp practice must be condemned and regulated. But this does not mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Big pharma also produce highly effective vaccines and cancer treatments and without this major expansion there would not n=be as much progress in prevention and treatment of many diseases.

      Reply ↓
      Kempe
      July 3, 2019 at 17:24
      I suggest you do a quick search for MMS, Miracle Mineral Solution, on the search engine of your choice. Here’s a quick overview:-

      Bleaching away what ails you: The Genesis II Church is still selling Miracle Mineral Supplement as a cure-all

      There were quite a number of sites on Facebook promoting this dangerous rubbish which Facebook initially refused to take down as they “didn’t violate Facebook’s terms and conditions” ie they were making money out of them.

      Desperate parents were encouraged to give their sick children enemas (which should only be done with medical supervision) of what is essentially industrial bleach on the promise that it would cure cancer, AIDS, autism; you name it. The result is really a lot physical and mental harm to the child.

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 12:06
      @ Kempe July 3, 2019 at 07:11
      As long as they don’t censor the trolls…

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 17:06
      @ Kempe July 3, 2019 at 07:11
      I suggest you too read my comment to SA @ Paul Barbara July 3, 2019 at 16:59
      So if you had your way, this independently sought testing by a Mothers Health site would be censored?
      Why the hell didn’t the Big Pharma Vaccine producers check this out? Because they are not liable for vaccine damages, due to a government protective of ‘Big Donors’.

      Reply ↓
      Kempe
      July 3, 2019 at 17:34
      Yes Moms Across America. Claims found to be untrue.

      https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/02/23/vaccines-contain-glyphosate-examining-anti-gmo-claim/

      Paul Barbara
      July 4, 2019 at 00:47
      @ Kempeb July 3, 2019 at 17:34
      No, not UNTRUE, the silly bollo^^s say: ..’A closer look at the science shows that what MAAMs and Samsel describe is a very unlikely scenario..’ Where is the science in that?
      And similar prats say Glyphosate doesn’t effect humans, whereas it is an incontrovertible fact that it affects human gut bacteria, extremely important in human health and it’s immune system.
      Anyhow, thanks for at least trying to respond – you normally just ignore stuff you cannot respond to.
      And obviously, Moms Across America must, perforce, be a fake organisation. Why on earth should mothers in America give a truppeny f^ck about their kids?
      But you, obviously, appear to!

      Reply ↓
      N_
      July 3, 2019 at 13:17
      Google are scum and always have been. It’s a kind of litmus test for whether people are worth talking to or not: do they have the activeness of mind to be able to understand to a noticeable extent what Google is and to criticise it? Or do they think it’s just a noun formed from the normal verb for “to look for stuff”, and “obviously” beyond criticism in the way that one doesn’t criticise the sky or the mountains?

      Anyone who slavishly follows Big Pharma propaganda and gets their children vaccinated with every vaccine that is “recommended” and who rushes to get vaccinated against colds and flu every autumn is a complete and utter moron.

      It is about time that some of the moon-faced gumbies whose lives have involved so much “activity” on the internet to realise what the internet is all about and to find channels of communication which can be used for genuine contestation.

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 14:49
      @ N_ July 3, 2019 at 13:17
      I’ve just downloaded ‘Brave’ and made it my default browser. It’s Open Source, and though I don’t understand a much about computers, it is supposed to be faster than Google, as well as more privacy-conscious.

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 16:24
      N_
      Rather sweeping statement
      “Anyone who slavishly follows Big Pharma propaganda and gets their children vaccinated with every vaccine that is “recommended” and who rushes to get vaccinated against colds and flu every autumn is a complete and utter moron.”

      First vaccines are manufactured and marketed by big pharma after they undergo extensive trials in research laboratories that are not directly under the influence of big pharma so this is not propaganda.
      Secondly, I would say that making sweeping statements about vaccinations is not really a sign of a discriminating mind, surely vaccines have saved millions of lives?

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 3, 2019 at 17:27
      @ SA July 3, 2019 at 16:24
      ‘…First vaccines are manufactured and marketed by big pharma after they undergo extensive trials in research laboratories that are not directly under the influence of big pharma so this is not propaganda…’
      It appears you haven’t seen my comment to you @ Paul Barbara July 3, 2019 at 16:59
      It obviously shows that Big Pharma do not rigorously test their products, and there are many instances where tesing that shows problems is not rectified, but simply covered up.
      There is enough material available to make anyone who cares about vaccines seriously question their blanket support for their ‘safety’.

      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 19:32
      Paul
      I dare say I know much more about vaccines, medical and scientific research than you do. I am trained to read a medical and research paper. I have myself done research and know the methodology of research and how to deduce the validity of scientific research. I say this not to be patronising but to say to you that it takes a lot of training and effort to go through this process. To rubbish this painstaking research and say that it is all big Pharma propaganda is the most blinkered attitude. Yes big pharma is out to get a lot of money but not by killing us all.

      Paul Barbara
      July 4, 2019 at 01:02
      @ SA July 3, 2019 at 19:32
      You may well have more knowledge of these issues than me, but that dows not give you any sort of ‘carte blanche’ right to rubbish comments, without giving your evidence.
      I put up evidence showing independent assays had shown Glyphosate in vaccines.
      Kempe replies with some waffle abut some jokers saying it is ‘highly unlikely’.
      The science in that? The science would be multiple assays showing no Glyphosate -n but of course, that might prove problematic, seeing as it has been found.
      Is the independent analyst crooked? So show it – shouldn’t be too hard.

      Reply ↓
      Kempe
      July 3, 2019 at 17:36
      It’s not propaganda it’s science.

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 3, 2019 at 19:38
      Paul
      I am not going to make any more comments on this thread because I think you treat this as you treat religious belief. You cannot convince a religious believer by evidence or logic because belief does not need logic or evidence. Therefore I will not convince you and you will forever be using non-evidence and statements as proof. Have a good evening.

      Reply ↓
      Paul Barbara
      July 4, 2019 at 01:08
      @ SA July 3, 2019 at 19:38
      So you won’t be contesting my comments? What can I say, except I agree we seem diametrically opposed on many issues, so frankly I won’t miss you.

      Reply ↓
      SA
      July 4, 2019 at 05:43
      [ Mod: Unfortunately this anti-vax conspiracy theory is well off-topic, so the comments will be pruned accordingly. Please make copies of any foregoing comments you wish to retain.

      You’re welcome to continue the debate in the discussion forum. ]

      Paul
      Your are upset that I will not be contesting your comments, so I have to be fair to you gone back to look at the ‘evidence’ connecting glyphosate with vaccines. As expected I wasted my time. Look at this for details.

      https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2016/09/20/glyphosate-herbicide-vaccines-frightened-parents-know/

      The problem with the original study as discussed in this article are summarised:
      1. The results were published in a non-peer reviewed journal which means there was no critical analysis of the data.
      2. The techniques used are not suitable for assay of trace contaminants but may be used as a cheap screening test which will then require confirmation by more sophisticated techniques.
      3. The laboratory used is a private lab not qualified to be authoritative in these matters.
      4. Vaccines go through a rigorous process of testing and no such contamination has been found by other much better qualified labs.

      Now you can answer me by saying that of course this is all a big conspiracy theory, as you do, and that all scientists and politicians and everybody is trying to pull the wool over our eyes, or you can argue scientifically if you can.
      I have never used glyphosate, not necessarily because it is potentially carcinogenic, because if it is, it is a much weaker carcinogen than other very commonly used agents such as some solvents, let alone cigarettes and alcohol both of which are indulged in by many people who want to ban vaccines and endanger the lives of children.
      The reason I dislike Glyphosate is a simple political and economic one. It and GMO foods are being used as a political and economic tools to monopolise food control by corporations to the detriment of small farmers everywhere. It is well documented that there has been a steep rise in suicide by farmers in India related to this introduction of GM foods. Certainly also the environmental damage from glyphosate and GM crops is much more damaging to wildlife and in turn, mankind than the postulated unproven links produced by people unqualified to make these wild allegations

      So much for linking Glyphosate with vaccines.’

      Where to start?
      I wouldn’t trust https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2018/02/23/vaccines-contain-glyphosate-examining-anti-gmo-claim/
      relied on by both SA and Kempe, as far as I could throw them – typical supporters of the Corporations, albeit ‘allegedly’ not funded by them.
      So, how honest and scientific are they?
      Well, firstly, the MAAM has not been shown to be wrong; admittedly the test they had done was certainly not definitive, but strongly indicates more stringent tests need to be done.
      The fact that GLP say more complex testing has not shown any Glyphosate in the vaccines, means little. The more complex tests are very specific – they are aimed to find specific chemicals. So unless they were aimed to find Glyphosate, they wouldn’t show it.
      Much like NIST – they claimed no evidence of explosives were found in WTC’s 1,2 and 7. When asked if they had looked for them, they answered no, and said it would be a waste of taxpayers money looking for something that wasn’t there!
      Big Pharma may be pulling the same trick.
      The MAAM asked specifically that further more accurate tests be done urgently on the vaccines – they did not rely on the far-from-accurate ELISA findings.
      ‘…While it’s not at all clear that what MAAM, Seneff and Samsel are claiming is true—the techniques they used are not reliable for determining a chemical at those low levels—these claims raise other questions about their hypothesis: How could glyphosate get into a vaccine?…’
      ‘Whilst it may not be clear that what MAAM, Seneff and Samsel are claiming is true’ is an admission that it equally may be true. The fact that the test is inconclusive does not negate their request to government and regulatory agencies to do the more expensive and definitive tests.
      Bottom line – the MAAM organised tests have not been proven wrong, and high-tech testd should be urgently done, rather than trying to rubbish the preliminary testing commissioned by MAAM.

      A closer look at the science shows that what MAAMs and Samsel describe is a very unlikely scenario. Glyphosate is metabolized by microbiota in soil; it is not metabolized by plants. Bioaccumulation (ever larger volumes of the chemical after repeated applications) has never been demonstrated for glyphosate. It is not retained in animal tissues and is quickly eliminated by animals that encounter it—that includes humans….’

      ‘…what MAAMs and Samsel describe is a very unlikely scenario…’
      How scientific is that? Instead of waffling on, they should be doing high-tech tests to prove the issue one way or the other.

      ‘…Bioaccumulation (ever larger volumes of the chemical after repeated applications) has never been demonstrated for glyphosate. It is not retained in animal tissues and is quickly eliminated by animals that encounter it—that includes humans….’
      Indeed? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749108004053
      ‘…Abstract
      The bioaccumulation potential of glyphosate and the formulation Roundup Ultra, as well as possible effects on biotransformation and antioxidant enzymes in Lumbriculus variegatus were compared by four days exposure to concentrations between 0.05 and 5 mg L−1 pure glyphosate and its formulation. Bioaccumulation was determined using 14C labeled glyphosate. The bioaccumulation factor (BCF) varied between 1.4 and 5.9 for the different concentrations, and was higher than estimated from log Pow. Glyphosate…’

      Glyphosate found again in animals and humans


      ‘…Glyphosate was detected in various organs of slaughtered cows: intestine, liver, muscles, spleen and kidneys, which is old news to the scientific community (the bioaccumulation of glyphosate is known since 1985). Dairy cows absorb about 35-40% of glyphosate from feed, part of which is permanently stored in bones as glyphosate is known chelator of calcium, macro and micro-elements….’

      Yet GLP state ‘..’…Bioaccumulation (ever larger volumes of the chemical after repeated applications) has never been demonstrated for glyphosate. It is not retained in animal tissues and is quickly eliminated by animals that encounter it—that includes humans….’
      Are you sure you can rely on that quack Corporation supporter?

    • #45324 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      You obviously feel very strongly about this. The problem here is that we have to agree whether you believe in scientific methodology or not. The main protagonists of the theory that all of the diseases on the rise in western society are due to glyphosate are Samsel and Seneff, neither of whom have done or have been trained in biological sciences as far as I can see. Their so called studies are rather limited and their conclusions are too far sweeping for the information provided. The supposed amounts of roundup found in their studies in vaccines are infinitesimally small and for the assay used are liable to false positive results. They have not shown beyond doubt that these results represent roundup and if this is to be believed, then they should get more definitive assays carried out. They get around that by asking the FDA to proof that roundup does is not found in vaccines and various commentators have then said that this is tantamount to asking someone to prove that they are innocent.
      This excellent review by a reputable team explains how the these scientists used a system of deduction called syllogism to reach their unfounded conclusions.
      “The five commentaries by Samsel and Seneff propose a link between exposures to environmental levels of glyphosate and the development of a wide range of chronic diseases (11–15). In each commentary, these authors largely construct their arguments on deductive reasoning based on a logistic structure called syllogism, which is formed when two or more propositions are used in order to generate a conclusion. Although syllogisms can help in deductive reasoning, to ensure that they are used in science in a constructive rather than a misleading way, it is necessary to ensure that the two propositions that lead to the conclusion are firmly evidence-based. We therefore evaluated the Samsel and Seneff commentaries to see whether this was indeed the case.”

      https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2017.00316/full

      • #45588 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        ‘…The main protagonists of the theory that all of the diseases on the rise in western society are due to glyphosate are Samsel and Seneff, neither of whom have done or have been trained in biological sciences as far as I can see…’
        I don’t hold that view, but I do hold the view that Glyphosate is poisonous to humans and animals. Along with many vaccines, bee and other insect killing herbicides, increasing electro-smog, nano-particles in the air, water and soil, and so on.
        The snake-oil salesmen, in keeping with their slimy murderous trade, speak with fork tongue.
        They say Glyphosate attacks the shikamate pathway, which they say humans and animals don’t have, but they are lying, insofar as the incredibly important gut bacteria do use this pathway, and it is disrupted, seriously damaging their health. But do they care? All they care about is being slapped with a multi-million cancer suit, and plenty more waiting in the wings.
        Monsanto pulled a crafty one selling out to Bayer – I suspect they knew their dirty game was about to come under serious (I hope) attack, and ‘passed the parcel’. I’m sure the Jerry’s will appreciate it.

    • #45346 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, this is looks like a fairly complex issue; you recommended one of Goldacre’s lectures a while ago; have you read his books Bad Science and Bad Pharma yet? They supply something of the grounding you need to make sense of all this – corruption is <b>not</b> confined to one “side” as you seem to think it is. There’s no monopoly on either corruption or good-faith error.

      • #45587 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        Sure, the anti-vaxxers might also be corrupt. But where the major money is, there you will find the major crooks. In this case, the multi-billion dollar vaccine market.
        Here is another link: ‘Fully Vaccinated vs Unvaccinated Part 3’ by Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Chairman, Children’s Health Defense https://stuartbramhall.wordpress.com/2019/07/18/fully-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-part-3/
        ‘…Thimerosal Containing Hepatitis B Vaccines—When Compared to Children Vaccinated Without Thimerosal—Increased Odds of ADHD 1.9X;
        Highest Levels of Thimerosal Exposure Increase Autism Risk 11.35X;
        Two H1N1-Containing Influenza Vaccines Prior to and During Pregnancy Increases Miscarriage Odds by 7.7X;
        H1N1 Influenza Vaccine Increases Risks of Bell’s Palsy (1.34X), Paraesthesia (1.25X) and Inflammatory Bowel Disease (1.25X) in High Risk Patients;
        HPV Vaccination Increases Odds of Memory Impairment (1.23X) and Involuntary Movement (1.53X);
        Thimerosal Containing Triple HepB Series in the First Six Months of Life Increases Odds of Emotional Disturbances by 2.37X;
        HPV Vaccine Increases the Risk of Celiac Disease by 1.56X;
        The H1N1 and Seasonal Influenza Vaccines Both Given During Pregnancy Increase Fetal Loss by 11.4% Compared to the Seasonal Influenza Vaccine Only….’
        The CDC, FDA, EPA and so forth are crooks, first and foremost, not guardians of the Nation’s health. As in this article, instead of acting on new evidence in defence of the people’s health, they simply block the information. It’s their forte.
        Re Goldacre, no I have too much on my plate to read the book, though I’m sure it might add a little to my discernment.
        Sorry I didn’t reply sooner – I only just found your comment.
        And now the PTB are pushing 5G, despite industry spokesmen admitting their are no studies showing it’s safe, and lots of scientists and doctors etc. saying it most definitely is not.

        • #45595 Reply
          SA
          Guest

          Paul
          There is a basic problem here in why we cannot agree. And that is that there is that we have to define whom to believe and how to read data. My way of looking at a scientific report is to look at the original published material and to assess the ability of those who wrote the report and then also to see whether this has been published in a reputable peer reviewed journal. Even then there have been glaring errors in the past and reputable journalists have been caught out by hoaxes and unscrupulous scientists (they do exist). So vigilance is advised on both sides. Of course there have been some very high profile scandals concerning medication and there is considerable sharp practice by big pharma, but their aim is to make money and one way of ensuring that this making of money is continued is to produce good products, not products that will kill the customer.

          Now the study you send a link is supposed to be from data obtained under the FOA and therefore there is no raw data that can be verified. This is published in the internet by a group and therefore there is no scientific verification. I cannot accept such publications and cannot waste time looking at them because it is simply this, a waste of time. Anybody can make claims and we can spend a lot of time and money trying to disprove them.
          In the case of mercury, its use has been discontinued in the developed countries but may still be used in some developing countries. The toxicity of mercury occurs because it is not easily excreted and therefore can accumulate in the body. The major toxicity is that can cause a dermatitis, inflammation of the skin and some neurological toxicity. But there have been studies to look at the specific link with autism and this was not proven. Therefore how the paper you link to got this figure of OD ratio of 11 is a mystery. But notice one way to cheat in statistics is by subgroup analysis, so they have a group called highest level of exposure. No figures are given for the number of cases although I have to admit I did not look at this too closely.
          In your original post you were talking about presence of Roundup in vaccines, and the authors allege, using an ELIZA assay method that they detected Roundup in vaccines at levels of one part per billion. This is really weird because this assumes an enormous accuracy in a test that is generally not used to detect trace amounts such as these.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24814559
          https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/study-risk-autism.html

          • #45596 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            Unfortunately: ‘The Medical Journals’ Sell-Out — Getting Paid to Play’:
            https://childrenshealthdefense.org/news/the-medical-journals-sell-out- getting-paid-to-play/
            Re Roundup, they knew the test was not reliable for such amounts, but used it to demand full spectrum tests – fair enough, I should say, given the health stakes of children.
            You seem to give the benefit of the doubt to Big Pharma, I to the parents.
            ‘…The toxicity of mercury occurs because it is not easily excreted and therefore can accumulate in the body. The major toxicity is that can cause a dermatitis, inflammation of the skin and some neurological toxicity. ..’
            You seem to be very blase about the ‘dangers’ of mercury (and it has not been removed from all vaccines in the West – the flu jab, for example), but not as bad, admittedly, as the WHO!!
            I was really taken aback when I just read: ‘…Methylmercury is very different to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury is used as a preservative in some vaccines and does not pose a health risk…’ on an official WHO website:
            https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mercury-and-health
            World HEALTH Organisation?? Is their statement on the safety of ethylmercury based on science?
            ‘…Of course there have been some very high profile scandals concerning medication and there is considerable sharp practice by big pharma, but their aim is to make money and one way of ensuring that this making of money is continued is to produce good products, not products that will kill the customer…’
            Sure, they don’t want to kill the customer, but they don’t want to cure him either. They want him as a recurring source of profit. I believe the Ancient Chinese had a system where people paid the doctor when they were well, and ceased when sick, so the doctor’s self-interest meant he would try to keep them well, thus getting income. Present day ghouls (obviously not all) aim to keep as many people sick and dependent as possible.

          • #45607 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            Further to my comment above, I’ve done some more searching, and Voila!:
            ‘Vaccine Ethylmercury vs. Methylmercury’: http://whale.to/vaccines/ethyl_vs_methyl.html
            ‘World Mercury Project Thimerosal, a mercury-containing preservative, is still in 48 million U.S. flu vaccines each year, tetanus toxoid, meningococcal vaccines and, in massive doses, in the pediatric vaccines given to 100 million children across the developing world. A Centers for Disease Control (CDC) review published last month found that the ethylmercury in thimerosal is as profoundly neurotoxic as the heavily regulated methylmercury in fish.

            ”I had no clue about the pivotal role they both had played in deceiving the public about thimerosal safety. Both of them spoke to me willingly. Offit expressed admiration for my father, which is an effective way to butter me up. I asked them both the obvious question: “Why do we advise pregnant women to steer clear of fish because of neurotoxic mercury and yet inject much larger doses of mercury into pregnant women and babies?” They both repeated to me the thread worn industry canard that the “ethyl mercury in vaccines is not as dangerous as the methyl mercury in fish” which everyone admits is highly neurotoxic. Offit explained to me that ethyl mercury wasn’t toxic because it leaves the human body so quickly.
            By then, I’d read Burbacher’s monkey studies which confirmed Offit’s assertion that the ethyl mercury from vaccines rapidly left the blood. But, Burbacher had shown the ethyl mercury was not being excreted from the body as Offit implied during our telephone conversation. Instead, it was going directly into the brain, where it rapidly metabolized into highly toxic inorganic mercury, and then lodged there, creating inflammation and brain damage. Burbacher had shown that inorganic mercury remains in the brain for years. Instead of being evidence of its safety, as Offit represented, ethyl mercury’s penchant for disappearing quickly from the blood was testimony to its extreme peril; it was disappearing due to the ease with which it crossed the blood-brain barrier! Ethyl mercury used in vaccines was both far more persistent and far more toxic than the methyl mercury found in fish. The Guzzi study, in 2012, showed the ethyl mercury was 50 times as toxic to cells. When I mentioned the Burbacher study to Stratton and Offit, they both went silent. It was obvious that they were aware of the study. THEY BOTH KNEW that science had refuted what they were telling me. They were accustomed to talking to journalists who seem to have an allergy to reading science and were content to parrot their reassurances.” [2016 Dec] Mercury, Vaccines and the CDC’s Worst Nightmare By Rita Shreffler…’

            Please read the full article, it really should shake your confidence in your sources.

    • #45355 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, do you see these matters as safe, God-given natural medicines versus the lies of Big Pharma and the Powers That Be?

      • #45597 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        In some cases, yes. Take GcMAF and cannabis oils. Whilst I am a Christian, it is not necessary to bring God into it to upset the atheists. One can just say ‘nature provides the cures’.

        • #45624 Reply
          SA
          Guest

          Two pivotal events led from blind belief to rationality: the renaissance and the enlightenment. Science is evidence based and therefore blind belief will not be an argument to rationally advance any human endeavor

          • #45632 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            That is hardly relevant to the latest information I provided – that the WHO, CDC and OFFIT were all proven wrong in stating ethylmercury was harmless as it was rapidly excreted (you seem to accept it is not, but still reckon ethylmercury is harmless). It was just rapidly lost from the blood stream, because it lodged in the brain!).Are these two statements compatible:
            ‘…Methylmercury is very different to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury is used as a preservative in some vaccines and does not pose a health risk…’ ( official WHO website).
            ‘Burbacher had shown the ethyl mercury was not being excreted from the body as Offit implied during our telephone conversation. Instead, it was going directly into the brain, where it rapidly metabolized into highly toxic inorganic mercury, and then lodged there, creating inflammation and brain damage.’
            Isn’t there one hell of a difference between mercury getting excreted from the body, or stored in the brain?
            Surely this is your sort of science talk.

            • #45633 Reply
              SA
              Guest

              Paul
              This could go on and on as did the 911 blog controversy. Wikipedia has a very good summary and here is an important paragraph:

              Scientific consensus
              In 2001 the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the National Institutes of Health asked the U.S. National Academy of Science’s (NAS) Institute of Medicine to establish an independent expert committee to review hypotheses about existing and emerging immunization safety concerns. This initial report found that based on indirect and incomplete evidence available at the time, there was inadequate evidence to accept or reject a thiomersal-autism link, though it was biologically plausible.[54]
              Since this report was released, several independent reviews have examined the body of published research for a possible thiomersal-autism link by examining the theoretical mechanisms of thiomersal causing harm and by reviewing the in vitro, animal, and population studies that have been published. These reviews determined that no evidence exists to establish thiomersal as the cause of autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders.[6][7][34][36]
              The scientific consensus on the subject is reflected in a follow up report that was subsequently published in 2004 by the Institute of Medicine, which took into account new data that had been published since the 2001 report. The committee noted, in response to those who cite in vitro or animal models as evidence for the link between autism and thiomersal:
              “However, the experiments showing effects of thimerosal on biochemical pathways in cell culture systems and showing abnormalities in the immune system or metal metabolism in people with autism are provocative; the autism research community should consider the appropriate composition of the autism research portfolio with some of these new findings in mind. However, these experiments do not provide evidence of a relationship between vaccines or thimerosal and autism. In the absence of experimental or human evidence that vaccination (either the MMR vaccine or the preservative thimerosal) affects metabolic, developmental, immune, or other physiological or molecular mechanisms that are causally related to the development of autism, the committee concludes that the hypotheses generated to date are theoretical only.”[7]
              The committee concludes:
              “Thus, based on this body of evidence, the committee concludes that the evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism.”[7] [bold in original]
              Further evidence of the scientific consensus includes the rejection of a causal link between thiomersal and autism by multiple national and international scientific and medical bodies including the American Medical Association,[55] the American Academy of Pediatrics,[56] the American College of Medical Toxicology,[57] the Canadian Paediatric Society,[58] the U.S. National Academy of Sciences,[7] the Food and Drug Administration,[9] Centers for Disease Control and Prevention,[10] the World Health Organization,[8] the Public Health Agency of Canada,[59] and the European Medicines Agency.[60]
              A 2011 journal article reflects this point of view and described the vaccine-autism connection as “the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years”.[19]
              Consequences

              The problem is that putting people off vaccinating all children has got dangerous consequences as there has been a rise of diseases that have almost been eradicated such as measles and believe me measles is a very unpleasant disease for children to have.
              Like with many things in life you have to take facts and decide for yourself if the risk is acceptable. Every time you smoke that cigarette (if you are a smoker) or pick that drink you will face a choice of risk versus benefit. This can also be extended to your bacon sandwich, crossing the road or going canoeing. We need utter safety we stay in a bubble at home and that is what these odd ratios are about.
              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal_and_vaccines
              Anyway hope you have a good weekend and enjoy yourself.

            • #45638 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              Wikepedia serves the PTB. You have ignored my point about the WHO and Co. stating ethylmercury is safe because it is excreted from the body, whereas it is certainly excreted from the blood, but is retained in the brain.
              Do you not wish to concede this point?
              This does not need to go on and on. Is Ethylmercury a safe substance to inject into human beings, including tiny babies, OR IS IT NOT?

            • #45662 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ SA July 21, 2019 at 14:29
              The problem is extremely simple – no one, or Corporation, can be trusted to police itself.
              ‘Big Pharma’s Role in Clinical Trials.
              Dhttps://www.drugwatch.com/featured/clinical-trials-and-hidden-data/ata from clinical trials are important in approving new medicines and discovering new treatments. But Big Pharma funds and runs most clinical trials. According to critics, this could allow drug companies to fake study results or hide dangerous side effects to get their drug approved or increase sales.
              ‘Data from clinical trials are important in approving new medicines and discovering new treatments. But Big Pharma funds and runs most clinical trials. According to critics, this could allow drug companies to fake study results or hide dangerous side effects to get their drug approved or increase sales….’

              ‘..Before the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approves a prescription drug, it must first go through a series of clinical trials. Data obtained from these trials should ensure the safety and effectiveness of drugs before they make it into the hands of patients.
              Each year, the National Institutes of Health’s (NIH) budget provides less money to fund clinical trials. Because of this, Big Pharma pays for and runs the majority of these trials.

              It then provides data to the FDA for drug approvals and safety reviews after the drug hits the market. While this practice may help get more drugs approved and allow more treatments to reach patients sooner, it may also lead to unknown risks.

              According to critics and consumer watchdogs, Big Pharma’s influence over clinical trials could allow drug companies to focus on the benefits of a drug and downplay the risks for the sake of profit. This biased information could also influence doctors to prescribe a drug without knowing all the risks.

              How Big Pharma Influences Trial Results
              It can cost billions to develop a new drug, and drug manufacturers want a return on their investment. For example, studies indicated that cost estimates of bringing a new drug to the market can start at approximately $160 million and end up as high as $2 billion.

              Brand-name drugs that are still under patent make the most money for drug companies. In addition, only about 34 percent of these trials make it to the final phase to testing, according to a 2014 study by Michael Hay and colleagues published in Nature Biotechnology. This puts more pressure on drug companies to have successful clinical trials.

              To this end, Big Pharma may influence clinical trials in a number of ways, including funding the trials, designing the trials and handpicking trial results. These practices could skew trial results in favor of drug companies and put patients at risk.

              “Clinical trials for pharmaceuticals are conducted and funded by the industry.”

              Dr. Michael A. Carome
              For example, the New England Journal of Medicine — one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world — published 73 studies of new drugs. Of those studies, a pharmaceutical company funded 60, 50 had drug-company employees among the authors and 37 lead researchers had accepted money from a drug company, according to a review conducted by the Washington Post.

              This means drug companies greatly influence the majority of medical information provided to the public.

              Unreliable clinical trials resulting from the possibility for bias due to Big Pharma influence is an ongoing issue because “clinical trials for pharmaceuticals are conducted and funded by the industry,” Dr. Michael A. Carome, director of the Health Research Group of Public Citizens in Washington, D.C., told Drugwatch……..’

              I don’t trust someone just because they have ‘Dr.’ in front of their name, any more than I trust someone because they have M.P. after it, or Congressman before it, when they have big spoils to protect.

            • #45663 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              The link got a bit jumbled above, should read:
              https://www.drugwatch.com/featured/clinical-trials-and-hidden-data/

            • #45800 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              This is a very important article, but with its repeated use of “may” and “could” it seriously understates the case. It’s not “according to critics”; investigations and documents demanded by courts have shown repeatedly that Big Pharma does “fake study results or hide dangerous side effects to get their drug approved or increase sales”, and that this does “lead to unknown risks”.

              “Big Pharma may does influence clinical trials in a number of ways, including funding the trials, designing the trials and handpicking trial results. These practices could do skew trial results in favor of drug companies and put patients at risk.”

            • #46217 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark July 27, 2019 at 15:54
              We seem to be in agreement for a change!

            • #46316 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              Paul, I think you would be surprised at just how much we agree about. Politically and ethically we share very similar positions; we both want the best for the vast majority ie. the ordinary people, and the natural world upon which we are all dependent. We both believe that the method of achieving this is for truth to be told and deception to be exposed.

              Where we differ is in our methods of assessing what is true.

        • #45764 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “One can just say ‘nature provides the cures’”

          No. Nature provides chemical elements and compounds, but it has not provided a book that says “willow bark will ease a headache, but foxglove causes heart seizure”. Such facts have been learned by trial and error, or in other words, experiment ie. science, albeit often informal.

          Whether a thing is “natural or not” is no guide to its efficacy, nor to its safety. Some of the most toxic substances are made by insects and arachnids. Many supposedly effective pharmaceuticals turn out to do nothing at all, once the trials hidden by the manufacturers have been revealed.

          – – – – – –
          The other matters on this page are a thimbleful of details cherry-picked from an ocean of data, and consequently this is not an appropriate forum to discuss them. The proper place is the scientific literature, where those with education and experience in analysis can pull claims apart and discuss them. Please read Bad Science and Bad Pharma to obtain a grounding in the skills and methodology required. Until you do, you are inadvertently adding to the vast clouds of fog around medicine, much of which is promoted deliberately to obscure and confuse.

          • #45765 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            And Paul, when considering hidden agendas, always consider both sides of the original proposition. Who stands to gain by the elimination of vaccination programmes if vaccines are effective? Are there not vast profits to be made if preventable diseases are not prevented?

            • #46221 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark July 26, 2019 at 10:34
              Do you believe, or at least are you aware, that certain very powerful ‘people’ have seriously considered culling the human population by 85 – 95%? And ‘dodgy mandatory vaccines’ would be a handy adjunct to wars, induced famines and artificial Pandemics?

            • #46317 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              I am aware of that theory. A very effective way of reducing the human population would be to withhold preventative treatments such as vaccines, which have prevented literally millions of deaths. As an additional “bonus”, fortunes could be made from treating cases that would never have arisen.

              In some ways I am even more suspicious than you. The “depopulation theory” was formulated by critics of a document called Limits to Growth by the Club of Rome, and the resulting UN initiative Agenda 21. Limits to Growth set out a message that big corporations wanted to discredit, that infinite economic growth on a finite planet was a recipe for mass extinction, including possibly human extinction. The UN’s Agenda 21 was an early sustainability initiative, and as such posed a major threat to corporate monetary profit. My suspicion, which I think you should consider, is that the “depopulation theory” benefited from corporate backing (hidden behind front organisations, of course, just as climate science denial has been). The UN is far from perfect, but it does hold governments and hence corporations to some (very inadequate) degree of accountability by being the authority of International Law.

              The real situation is actually far more sinister; the vast majority of ordinary people are effectively being farmed for their labour. While a desire to cull the majority may be a fantasy of some less intelligent members of “the elite”, their more realistic brethren fully understand that their elite status derives entirely from the exploitation of the vast masses ‘beneath’ them. You only have to attempt to pay your electricity bill to discover how useless robots and software systems are when presented with the most trivial of complications; the notion that robots could replace human intelligence is beyond folly; we may be “made in God’s image”, but making in God’s image is clearly beyond our abilities. The elite need the masses, indeed, without the masses the very concept of elite status is meaningless.

    • #45767 Reply
      Paula
      Guest

      The lancet study was made up to divert attention from real cause autism which is possibly anti biotics. Paula cannot speak up being silenced. Her son is child ,4. Someone needs to investigate this. She was told there was no girl in study yet is from same doctor surgery but no one will let her know who it is.

      • #45771 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        The lancet study was made up to divert attention from real cause autism

        If that is so, it was a spectacularly weak attempt. Wakefield’s paper was merely a “case series” ie. the equivalent in the scientific literature of a hunch, and it studied only twelve children, and only eight of them were autistic.

    • #45768 Reply
      Paula
      Guest

      Paula tried to expose for 7 years but is blocked. She went to the royal free for tests to find out why son had gone autistic but was coaxed. That was 97 she did lot research into natural treatment like diet and probiotics and Paul shattock visited her after this him and Wakefield started setting up research and study

    • #45769 Reply
      Paula
      Guest

      Paula gets so many problems with mobiles and internet and almost impossible to expose. Had files put on her computer that were locked in 2012 which was very scary she has tried main stream papers but no luck. Is it financial links to pharmecutimals. Families need to know the truth
      Gov knows cause autism
      All lancet parents need to be aware who each other are
      Are they all genuine. All those in controversy on same side. Paula is from north shields and a jabs centre was set up there not long after Paul shattock visited her yet no others except main group.

      • #45772 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “Gov knows cause autism”

        The scientific search for the cause of autism can be followed in the scientific literature. The cause is not documented there, so it cannot be known to governments. In any case, politicians ignore and dismiss science far more often than heeding it, eg. the sacking of Alvin Weinberg (nuclear power), the sacking of Professor Nutt (assessment of the dangers of illegal drugs), the dismissal of climate change and environmental degradation for thirty years etc. etc.

        Paula may be able to find help with computers from her local Linux User Group.

    • #45770 Reply
      Paula
      Guest

      Paula met Brian deer journalist in 2014 she had told Paul shattock she was determined to find child 8 parents from Whitley bay so he suggested Brian yet there meant to be on different sides controversy the address Brian give Paula in Whitley bay was probably false. She left letters yet no replies. She is diverted and blocked every time she tries to do some thing to expose this. There is no freedom of speech. There is latest scandel of autistic people being abused in NHS hospitals. All this is to keep elite rich. Its all about making money. Scientific research is used to suit them in some cases and they do not care about families.

    • #45801 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul Barbara, July 21 23:05:

      Wikepedia serves the PTB

      That is a gross oversimplification; I edit at Wikipedia and my edits certainly don’t serve the Powers That Be, yet because I’m careful to follow the rules, my edits endure:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Criticism_of_the_9%2F11_Commission&action=historysubmit&type=revision&diff=661172358&oldid=650511014

      If you’re unhappy with Wikipedia, don’t just moan and dismiss; learn to recognise reliable sources and learn to edit Wikipedia!

      You have ignored my point about the WHO and Co. stating ethylmercury is safe…

      No, SA answered you. It isn’t a binary choice, it’s a risk versus benefit assessment.

      • #46027 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark July 27, 2019 at 16:04
        ‘No, SA answered you. It isn’t a binary choice, it’s a risk versus benefit assessment.’
        I made a long argument yesterday showing that he had not answered my comment, but for some reason the mods junked it.

        [ Mod: I’ve checked the deletion list and examined the activity logs, and I can see no deletion event in the last 48 hours for a reply with your username (or indeed anything on this thread). Maybe the reply wasn’t received? Sometimes a connection glitch can block the POST action, and sometimes replies can be automatically sent to the spam list – though I checked that too and didn’t notice your name! So unless you posted incomprehensible rubbish under a pseudonym, I don’t think it’s fair to say that “the mods junked it”. ]

        So may I refer you to my comment above, @ Paul Barbara July 19, 2019 at 23:28.
        To make a risk/benefit analysis, you need all or as much as possible information. Big Pharma will not give you that opportunity.
        As is stated in my comment, and in the two articles. WHO openly state on one of their sites, after going on about the hazards of mercury, states that: ‘Methylmercury is very different to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury is used as a preservative in some vaccines and does not pose a health risk. ‘
        https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mercury-and-health
        This is probably based on the fallacious assumption that because it rapidly leaves the blood, it therefore goes out of the body. WRONG (as demonstrated with links above).
        Yet the false information still sits on the WHO site (they have previously been very credibly accussed of cooperating with the likes of Bill Gates and other ‘human culling’ organisations, to assist spreading a vaccine among Third Country women which while ostensibly was for one thing (Tetanus, I believe), also sterilised them). The WHO, as the Western Governments ,UN and OPCW have all been compromised.

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        • #46053 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          Paul, it’s clear that you haven’t read even Bad Science, let alone Bad Pharma; it is simply impossible to have a meaningful conversation about this sort of subject until you have at least some of the necessary tools.

          The assessment of the effects of ethyl and methyl mercury in a system as complex as a living mammal is a hugely complex and technical subject, and just one of a myriad similar assessments; I know for certain that it is way beyond my technical experience, yet you rush in where angels fear to tread. You then attempt to support these claims with sweeping assertions such as “Big Pharma will not give you that opportunity” and “the WHO […] have previously been very credibly accussed of cooperating with the likes of Bill Gates and other ‘human culling’ organisations, to assist spreading a vaccine among Third Country women which […] also sterilised them”. These concern completely the opposite end of the pyramid of human activity, the pinnacle as opposed to the base.

          An ocean of highly complex structure with effectively infinite details lie between these two types of assessment and it cannot be ignored; the two simply do not belong together in the same comment. I’m sorry Paul, but this is conspiracy theorists’ type of thinking, like trying to assess momentum transfer in the collapses of the Twin Towers on the basis of whether I personally am Jewish or not.

          “The WHO, as the Western Governments ,UN and OPCW have all been compromised.”

          This is true, but “compromised” does not mean “puppet”, and the details are all-important. You need to be campaigning for transparency (as Ben Goldacre is) rather than against vaccines. It’s as if you’re campaigning against looking and listening when crossing a road because that’s what governments recommend.

          I take it you won’t read Goldacre because “he could be one of the bad guys” and thus might corrupt your thinking?

    • #46038 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Mods, I apologies for saying you ‘junked’ my comment, as you have explained you didn’t.
      However, it somehow disappeared, possibly by some accidental action of my own.
      I took quite a while formulating it, but ‘C’est la vie’.
      Thanks for explaining the situation.

    • #46319 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Further evidence of Big Pharma’s real motivations:
      ‘GcMAF and the Persecution of David Noakes, Lyn Thyer & Immuno Biotech’:
      https://www.ukcolumn.org/article/gcmaf-and-persecution-david-noakes-lyn-thyer-immuno-biotech
      ‘…Big Pharma is a corporate venture that has absolutely no vested interest at all in curing disease. They became acutely aware of the problem of cures in 2015 when Gilead Sciences (GILD) developed a 90% effective cure for Hepatitis C.

      Initially the $12.5 billion in revenue from the GILD cure was welcomed. However, the problem with a cure, from an investment perspective, is that it cures people. The former Hep C patients no longer needed any treatment, and revenues fell off a cliff as more and more people didn’t require medication. What was even worse were the rapidly diminishing numbers of people spreading infection, creating fewer and fewer new customers.

      The global investment firm Goldman Sachs are one of the world’s leading investors in the pharmaceutical industry. They were concerned about the potentially catastrophic financial effects of curing people. They saw that advances in medical science threatened to make people well and thus reduce their return on investment (ROI.) In 2018 they issued their report The Genome Revolution. In it they questioned if curing disease was sustainable from a business model perspective. Their analyst’s conclusions make horrifying reading.

      The potential to deliver ‘one shot cures’ is one of the most attractive aspects of gene therapy, genetically-engineered cell therapy and gene editing. However, such treatments offer a very different outlook with regard to recurring revenue versus chronic therapies …

      GILD is a case in point, where the success of its hepatitis C franchise has gradually exhausted the available pool of treatable patients …

      In the case of infectious diseases such as hepatitis C, curing existing patients also decreases the number of carriers able to transmit the virus to new patients, thus the incident pool also declines … Where an incident pool remains stable (eg, in cancer) the potential for a cure poses less risk to the sustainability of a franchise….’

      How much evidence is required before the penny drops?
      I was present in court for one day during the trial of David Noakes, but didn’t go again because of my hearing problems, and the very low sound level of the proceedings.

      • #46323 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “How much evidence is required before the penny drops?”

        Paul, I think you should recognise and question your own assumption that those who don’t accept your opinions about vaccines etc. are all brainwashed dupes. Yes, there have been incidents in which elements of the pharmaceutical establishment have attempted to discredit researchers who have discovered cures. For instance, a major effort was directed against one of the two doctors who demonstrated that some stomach ulcers are caused by bacteria called helicobacter pylori and could therefore be cured with cheap, off-patent antibiotics, thus depriving the pharmaceutical industry of a steady income stream from anti-acid ulcer treatments. It does not follow that vaccines are a scam.

        I think you should also note that the quote in your comment above is advocating for a gene therapy, directly contradicting your own earlier position about “natural” treatments being more trustworthy.

        I know nothing of the GILD case and I expect it would take me several weeks to research it, but thanks to Ben Goldacre’s two books, I’d have some idea of how to research it.

        • #46326 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark August 13, 2019 at 09:00
          You largely agree with my position re Big Pharma’s lack of interest in curing, and desire to rather have the walking-dead coming back for repeat prescriptions (more lovely loot).
          I don’t know if you read the GcMAF article about that cancer cure, which is avoided like the plague by Big Pharma, who use their tremendous clout to lean on regulatory and enforcement agencies to come down like a ton of bricks on doctors or others who try to use and distribute it.
          Considering it’s phenomenal record in cases everyone has totally given up on, don’t you believe this is unconscionable?
          And re one an antacid scam not proving vaccines are a scam, it all points to the possibility that vaccines COULD be, given the lack of honesty, morality and transparency.
          My position is the possibility is there, and because of my knowledge of their previous criminality, I accept the worst interpretation given by Big Pharma’s detractors.
          You seem to agree with me that Big Pharma are unprincipled, but give them the benefit of the doubt re vaccines.
          Would you agree?

          • #46332 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            You seem to agree with me that Big Pharma are unprincipled, but give them the benefit of the doubt re vaccines. Would you agree?

            Yes and no, respectively.

            More specifically, the pharmaceutical companies are the same as other companies; their primary legal duty is to maximise returns to their shareholders. They could probably do that better by not manufacturing vaccines at all. Mostly it is governments that mandate vaccination programmes, not pharmaceutical companies.

            Paul, this whole issue is a bit more complicated than the simple “us versus them” format you continually try to cobble it into. Why won’t you read Goldacre? Do you even know why you won’t?

            • #46379 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 13, 2019 at 15:39
              If you saw the list of books I have to read, and the other things I have to do, and you knew how difficult it is to do anything with my lack of energy and almost constant tiredness, you would stop asking me to read Goldacre.
              The Pharma Companies do indeed have an obligation to their shareholders, but their primary obligation should be to the safety of the products they produce for use by patients. This clearly is not the case, and most of the various governments are quite happy with that.
              Sure, governments mandate the vaccines and drug regulations, but at the behest of the Big Pharma lobbyists. Surely that is obvious.

            • #46382 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “If you saw the list of books I have to read…” etc.

              You are justifying your own ignorance. I remind you that the opinions you are promoting have life-or-death consequences. The books I recommend are full of intellectual tools. If you are unwilling to learn to use those tools, you should refrain from promoting potentially lethal opinions.

              “The Pharma Companies […] primary obligation should be to the safety of the products they produce”

              That would be some system other than capitalism. Yet the major promoters of anti-vax literature are the US Right. Que pasa?

              “governments mandate the vaccines and drug regulations, but at the behest of the Big Pharma lobbyists”

              It really isn’t as simple as that; there is public research too. Really, either read the books I am recommending, which will give you a grounding at least, or admit to yourself that you don’t know enough to take a side.

              Incidentally, I was with Craig all last week and we discussed many things. One thing he mentioned was that of all the conspiracy theories, it’s the anti-vax ones that he most objects to. Yet his latest heart specialist has taken him off many medications, replacing all of them with one of the oldest, derived from foxglove extract. By odd coincidence I mentioned foxglove’s cardiac effects earlier in this thread. Foxglove extract slows the heart, this being the treatment that Craig is receiving, but too much will cause it to stop completely, which is the effect I mentioned. Natural or not? Good or bad? Maybe these aren’t quite the right questions.

    • #46380 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Again, surely this screams out to the heavens:
      http://whale.to/c/trace_amounts.html
      ‘…Take Another Look : An Interview with ‘Trace Amounts’ co-director Shiloh Levine I learned that Ethylmercury is not the “safe mercury,” which a lot of people like to spout in the media. It is actually more dangerous than Methylmercury, which is the type of mercury found in fish. And it gets trapped in the brain twice as much as Methylmercury and that’s where the neurological problems are….Two parts per billion is the amount of allowable mercury in our drinking water. Two hundred parts per billion is considered toxic waste. Fifty-thousand parts per billion is the amount of mercury in Thimerosal at twenty-five micrograms. In a flu shot, that amount is fifty thousand parts per billion, which is twenty-five thousand times more than the allowable amount in drinking water. You’re injecting toxic waste into babies and pregnant mothers, and that’s not okay…..’

      • #46383 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “surely this screams out to the heavens”

        No, it is merely rhetoric. An obvious flaw that even I can spot is that we each consume pints of water day in day out, whereas vaccinations are given in tiny doses and only a few times per lifetime.

        • #46384 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark August 13, 2019 at 20:20
          The fact that mercury has been removed from almost all childhood vaccines in the US proves that there is a very real danger (though it is still used in the yearly flu shot, and also used in vaccines exported to other countries).
          The CDC has been shown to have covered up the fact (not theory) that their schedule for babies’ vaccinations went way over even their own appalling ‘limits’, and rather than correct the issue immediately, let it ride for years, so as not to get embarrassed by their stupidity (and even when the top vaccine makers offered to supply mercury-free vaccines almost immediately).

          • #46386 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            “The fact that mercury has been removed from almost all childhood vaccines in the US proves that there is a very real danger”…

            No, it doesn’t prove that. The way to prove that would be cohort studies, and case-control studies.

            The mercury may have been removed for a host of reasons, for instance at the direction of government to increase acceptance of and confidence in vaccination. Such acceptance and confidence could be justified or misplaced, and the way to find out would be cohort studies and case-control studies.

            You need to read Goldacre. His arguments clearly make sense, and he’s streets ahead of either you or me.

            • #46397 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 13, 2019 at 23:00
              No, it’s not me that should read Goldacre, it’s you who should read previous comments on this and other previous threads, or just to read up on the CDC and mercury. You will find out the obvious – it was removed because it is a hazard – something that should be obvious to anyone who knows the slightest bit about mercury and it’s neurotoxicity.
              Tell me something – above I quoted a WHO website that claimed, with no caveats, that:
              ‘…Methylmercury is very different to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury is used as a preservative in some vaccines and does not pose a health risk…’ https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/mercury-and-health

            • #46540 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              OK, so assuming you’re right (since clearly, no other assumption is acceptable to you), you can show me the cohort studies and the case-control studies that indicate widespread neurological damage in populations vaccinated with the substances you object to, right?

              Is there anything you aren’t the ultimate source of wisdom about? Or do you “just know” about everything?

            • #46543 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              When I said ‘tell me something’ I missed out, ‘tell me what you think of that statement from the WHO’.

            • #46541 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              I have a reason for placing little weight upon the handful of links you’ve posted; what do you think it is?

            • #46544 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 15, 2019 at 10:18
              Do you not trust that the WHO site I linked to is genuine? If it is, what do you make of such a ridiculous statement that:
              ‘…Methylmercury is very different to ethylmercury. Ethylmercury is used as a preservative in some vaccines and does not pose a health risk…’
              If the WHO can get away with posting such utter BS, what does it say about the WHO, and indeed, of ‘Peer Revue’? Why have not the world’s premier doctors and scientists corrected them?
              And the CDC are still pumping out the same lies, though they know the truth that ethylmercury disappears quickly from the blood because it passes easily through the blood/brain barrier and is stored in the brain:
              https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/index.html
              How can anyone trust these puppet organisations?

    • #46545 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      “If the WHO can get away with posting such utter BS, what does it say about the WHO, and indeed, of ‘Peer Revue’? Why have not the world’s premier doctors and scientists corrected them?”

      Tell you what Paul, you tell me, seeing as that’s the only direction of communication you’ll permit.

      While you’re at it, since you’ve identified which organisations are ‘puppets’, please tell me who the puppeteers are. Just explain how the whole world works, since you’re clearly convinced that you know.

      And when you’re done, might I be permitted to ask questions to test the logical consistency of your infallible knowledge?

      • #46547 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark August 15, 2019 at 14:51
        They are the puppets of the Banksters, Financiers and Corporations and their lobbyists, of course.
        But why on earth you cannot respond to the WHO statement, and call it out for what it is, utter murderous BS, I fail to see.
        Here is a balanced BMJ article (surely they are not sowing disinfo to question vaccines?):
        ‘Pressure mounts for inquiry into MMR furore’:
        https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/30/how-can-vaccines-cause-damage

        Similarly, the Banksters’ and Corporations’ lobbyists lobby (bribe) for arms buildups, wars, GMO’s, pesticides and herbicides, deregulation of safety and pollution standards etc. These things are obvious facts, and should not need me to point them out.

        • #46550 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “They are the puppets of the Banksters, Financiers and Corporations and their lobbyists, of course.”

          Of course. So why do these puppeteers want ethylmercury in vaccines? And why did the CDC stop administering it? And why do governments fund road safety campaigns, and enforce food regulations? Is the WHO more compromised than the CDC or vice versa? Who can we trust apart from your very good self and the US Christian Right websites that you, personally, endorse?

          “Here is a balanced BMJ article (surely they are not sowing disinfo to question vaccines?)”

          Er, it is not a BMJ article. If you bother to look, it is written not by the BMJ editorial board, nor by a doctor, scientist or professor, but by a “Father of vaccine damaged daughter” who apparently wishes to remain anonymous. Also it was published in 2004, yet this is the sort of thing you claim to be viciously suppressed.

          All you are doing is cherry-picking (or more likely, parroting some Right-wing US website’s cherry-picking), and what you lack in reason you make up for in aggression. Please either cite your qualifications and experience in toxicology and physiology, or learn to recognise your own ignorance.

          • #46573 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ Clark August 15, 2019 at 18:20
            ‘…Er, it is not a BMJ article. If you bother to look, it is written not by the BMJ editorial board, nor by a doctor, scientist or professor, but by a “Father of vaccine damaged daughter” who apparently wishes to remain anonymous…’
            It is a BMJ article insofar as it appears in their journal, and it is not written by someone who ‘prefers to stay anonymous’ but by Alan Challoner MA (Phil) MChS (certainly sounds like some kind of doctor to me, but I cannot find the meaning of the post-nominal letters, other than they seem to refer to some kind of surgeon).
            The ‘father of a brain damaged daughter’ is the reference No. 5, which the author refers to in part of his article.
            And you still haven’t commented on the WHO statement that ethylmercury in vaccines is not a health hazard.
            Re who is more corrupted, the CDC or the WHO, I suspect the CDC, but they are both corrupted, as are the OPCW and many UN ‘Peace Keeping’ Operations (Haiti; Balkans; Congo).

            • #46574 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              You are right that the response was written by Alan Challoner MA (Phil) MChS, retired; I apologise, I had failed to notice the author’s name at the top right. However, “Father of vaccine damaged daughter” is not one of the references; Alan Challoner seems to have included it as a “competing interest” as part of his letter, with the BMJ adding “No competing interests” as defined by them.

              The letter seems a good one for 2004. Nothing it contains justifies your insistence upon spreading irrational fear and lies about vaccinations, doctors and medical institutions. If you really cared about such matters and children’s health you would undertake the discipline of academic study, but since you are motivated only by feelings of superiority you won’t even read the books I recommend.

              I do not know enough to comment about ethylmercury in vaccines. Clearly you know even less than me, but you won’t let that stop you. Far from conspiring to cull the human population the WHO are working to eradicate polio, but the sort of irrationality you insist upon promoting may well defeat them; bully for you and your ilk, Paul.

            • #46635 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 16, 2019 at 01:52
              Thanks for acknowledging your fault.
              ‘..I do not know enough to comment about ethylmercury in vaccines…’
              That is really not good enough. Ethyl and methyl mercury, indeed any kind of mercury, is acknowledged as a neurotoxin.
              One does not need to be a specialist in medicine or biology to conclude mercury is NOT a good element to inject into anybody’s bodies, let alone new-born babies and young children, and pregnant women.
              But leave commonsense by the wayside; you seem to have convinced yourself you are right.

            • #46648 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “Thanks for acknowledging your fault”

              No problem; correction is what the scientific mindset constantly strives to do. Why didn’t you acknowledge your error, eh?

              “you seem to have convinced yourself you are right”

              No, I have acknowledged my ignorance, something which you seem very reluctant to do. It is you that has “convinced yourself you are right” and you seem to be psychologically projecting it onto me. You have essentially no expertise in toxicology, biochemistry etc.; neither do I, yet one of us presumes to prescribe for all humanity, and the other says “I don’t claim to know”.

              Everything is toxic, at some concentration, even water; remember Leah Betts? If I asked you “which is more toxic, water or tetradecafluorohexane”, you’d have a hard time believing the answer was water, because water is “natural” whereas tetradecafluorohexane sounds like some scary man-made “chemical”. But you can’t even drown in tetradecafluorohexane.

              Always “new-born babies and pregnant women”, isn’t it? Tip; learn to recognise dog-whistles rather than just reacting to them.

            • #46682 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 20, 2019 at 09:18
              ‘..Always “new-born babies and pregnant women”, isn’t it?…’
              Tip: they are by far the most susceptible people to vaccine damage.
              If I was canine, I’d recognise dog whistles – as a human, the sound frequency is out of my hearing range.

        • #46551 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          Paul, look, I’m sorry, but it’s just impossible to hold any reasoned, technical discussion with you; you just don’t have the background. What you do seem to have is oodles of self-righteous zeal. You believe that you know and understand, and that you’re doing the ignorant masses a great favour, but you don’t even have sufficient knowledge to assess your own lack of understanding.

          This is called the Dunning-Kruger effect, it is common, and it has been studied:

          “the Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which people mistakenly assess their cognitive ability as greater than it is. It is related to the cognitive bias of illusory superiority and comes from the inability of people to recognize their lack of ability. Without the self-awareness of metacognition, people cannot objectively evaluate their competence or incompetence”

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

          It is closely related to illusory superiority, but the impression it gives is that of arrogance.

          Really, the best way to make progress would be for you to read Bad Science.

    • #46651 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      So, to summarise…

      Whale.to:

      “Satellites are purely science-fiction. All supposed images of satellites in orbit show fake CGI “satellites” orbiting a fake CGI “ball-Earth.” First conceived by Freemason science-fiction writer Arthur C. Clarke in 1945, they claim satellites became science-fact soon after. This is impossible for many reasons outlined in the following video, however, including the fact the melting points of the metals used in satellites are far lower than the temperature in the “thermosphere” where satellites supposedly are. Satellites, space stations, the Hubble telescope and space travel in general are absolutely the biggest hoaxes of the century, and NASA the most successful propaganda organization in history”

      On the basis of one reference from the website above, contrasted with one, deliberately simplified, non-technical public statement from the WHO website, we can conclude with certainty that the “murderous” World Health Organisation is deliberately encouraging neural damage to children through vaccinations on behalf of a secret cabal of international financiers, as a prelude to killing 95% of the human population.

      Corollaries: Right-wing US lawyers do NOT stand to gain if vaccine compensation is fought case-by-case rather than administered through the Federal Vaccine Court; there can be NO incentive for any anti-vax “conspiracy theory”, and big corporations and the US Right have NO incentives to discredit the United Nations.

    • #46680 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Americans Can Handle an Open Discussion on Vaccines—RFK, Jr. Responds to Criticism from His Family’:

      Americans Can Handle an Open Discussion on Vaccines—RFK, Jr. Responds to Criticism from His Family


      ‘…HHS (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services) partners with vaccine makers to develop, approve, recommend, and pass mandates for new products and then shares profits from vaccine sales. HHS employees can personally collect up to $150,000 annually in royalties for products they work on. For example, key HHS officials collect money on every sale of Merck’s controversial HPV vaccine Gardasil, which also yields tens of millions annually for the agency in patent royalties. Furthermore, under the 1986 Act that created the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, HHS is the defendant in Vaccine Court and is legally obligated to defend against any claim that a vaccine causes injury. Despite high hurdles for recovery, HHS pays out hundreds of millions of dollars annually (over $4 billion total) to Americans injured by vaccines. Hence, if HHS publishes any study acknowledging that a vaccine causes a harm, claimants can use that study against HHS in Vaccine Court. In June 2009, a high-level HHS official, Tom Insel, killed a $16 million-dollar budget item to study the relationship between vaccines and autism by the Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee. Insel argued that petitioners would use these studies against HHS in vaccine court.

      Such conflicts are a formula for “agency capture” on steroids….’
      There is a large part of the answer as to why there is little evidence of vaccine/autism links.

      • #46685 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        …from a website called “The truth About Vaccines”. I suppose the scientific literature is not worth looking at, or only when it’s been appropriately cherry-picked.

        I see human reproduction features again… As it does so often; a favourite US-Right theme… Why don’t you recognise this stuff for what it is?

    • #46687 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘A group of CDC scientists point at a criminal conspiracy within the agency’:
      https://www.honeycolony.com/article/cdc-corruption-a-betrayal-of-public-trust/

      ‘YOUR Children. YOUR Choice’: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2325821697679985

      How much evidence are pro-vaccine aficionados willing to ignore?
      The FDA requires newborns not exceed 5 micrograms of aluminium per Kg. per day by IV. The average newborn of 3 1/2 Kg shouldn’r receive more than 17 1/2 microgrames of aluminium per day by IV; yet one dose of HEP B vaccine (advised for all children at birth) contains 250 micrograms.
      I wonder what Goldacre would make of that little conundrum?

      • #46688 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Well if you’d read him you’d find out.

        Of course, you could assume he’s part of the conspiracy, and thereby be relieved of thinking about complex issues. Oh but you did that already….

        So let’s see, you’re opposed to MMR vaccine, Hep B vaccine, HPV vaccine, a couple of others. It’s all vaccination you’re determined to spread propaganda against, right? So you’re propagandising for polio, smallpox, tetanus, testicular atrophy and cervical cancer etc? GOOD on you, Paul; that’s a really noble thing to do.

        • #46704 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark August 22, 2019 at 23:21
          You are jumping to conclusions – I have never said I am against all vaccinations. I assume when vaccines were first tried, they were for good medical reasons. It was only later they became viewed as money-spinners and covert birth control scams.
          RFK Jr. is not anti-vaccine, just some, and adjuvants like mercury and aluminium, and also the age at which they are administered.
          As I’m not about to read Goldacre (he obviously won’t have the specific answer to that particular conundrum in his book, anyway), why don’t you tell me how the two conflicting recommendations can be reconciled?
          The only way you can maintain your pro-vaccine argument seems to be by refusing to deal with contrary evidence.
          Many instances of gross manipulation and fraud by the ‘Regulatory Authorities’ has been quoted by me, you even agree in part that there is corruption on their part, yet you still use their statistics and statements to back your stance.

      • #46690 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “How much evidence are pro-vaccine aficionados willing to ignore?”

        OK, since you’re unwilling to read someone who’s studied such matters his whole professional life, and who’s a vicious critic of the pharmaceutical industry, let’s see if you can scientifically investigate your own question.

        First, what are the effects of aluminium toxicity? From a scientific source please, not marginal cherry-picking off whale.to

        • #46707 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark August 22, 2019 at 23:35
          ‘Scientists in Canada Being Censored from Covering Dangers of Aluminum in Vaccines’:

          ‘…Further data showed that a significant correlation exists between the amounts of aluminum given to preschool children and the current rates of autism in seven Western countries. Those countries with the highest level of aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines had the highest autism rates.

          They revealed:

          The observed correlation between the number of aluminum-adjuvanted vaccines and ASD was further tested using Hill Criteria and met eight of nine of these indicating that vaccines containing aluminum are highly likely to be at least partially causal for autism.

          Professor Shaw and Dr. Tomljenovic continued their paper by adding:

          There are other links between aluminum exposure/toxicity and ASD. These include the following: A pilot study showed higher than normal aluminum levels in the hair, blood and/or urine of autistic children; children are regularly exposed to higher levels of aluminum in vaccines per body weight than adults; practically, nothing is known about the pharmacokinetics and toxicodynamics of aluminum in vaccines in children; and aluminum in vaccines has been linked to serious neurological impairments, chronic fatigue and autoimmunity….’
          Notice ‘Hill Criteria’?
          ‘Hills Criteria of Causation’: http://www.drabruzzi.com/hills_criteria_of_causation.htm
          Scientific enough for you?

          • #46711 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            No, the Health Impact News website is not scientific source, rather, it tends very much towards conspiracy theory, and that article deals with conspiracy not science. Please see my 13:01 comment.

            • #46743 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark August 23, 2019 at 13:01
              Vaxxed is not conspiracy theory, it exposes very real, health-destroying (and sometimes murderous) conspiracies, which you have as good as accepted regarding some Pharma Corporations in the past.
              So the ‘Hills Criteria of Causation’: http://www.drabruzzi.com/hills_criteria_of_causation.htm is not scientific?
              Scientific principles CAN be written in Popular Mechanics, but are often not when they try to save the establishment’s butt by buttressing some baloney that breaks accepted laws of physics (and please don’t try to get this comment section closed down as you did another one).
              Re the Citroen driver, it depends on his level of knowledge. I have often been in that position, with Peugeots. Sometimes I chose one, sometimes the other. If the part is difficult to replace, or takes a long time, I have generally opted for the maker’s parts, but where it is not too difficult to replace, or is not too expensive labour-wise, then I usually plump for the cheaper part. I was quite competent in working on cars in the 60’s and 70’s, but particularly with diesels they got too complicated for me later on.
              Again, it would be helpful if you didn’t keep bringing ‘conspiracy theories’ into the equation, when what I try to show are genuine, died-in-the-wool conspiracies, if not out of the mouths of the perps, at least clearly evident by their actions.

            • #46748 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              Ah, you want to argue about collapsing buildings again, another subject about which you know nothing. I did the Twin Tower calculations myself; I didn’t even need any accuracy to see that they collapsed just as they’d be expected to.

              It seems pointless trying to reason with you. You prove Mark Lewis right. Thank goodness my hostility kept you at a distance that day at the High Court. With friends like you, Craig barely needs enemies.

            • #46749 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “Re the Citroen driver, it depends on his level of knowledge”

              Right. But you know better than the vast majority of doctors, toxicologists, epidemiologists, and in particular, Ben Goldacre.

              So, please list your qualifications and experience in the above fields. If none, please write “none” for the sake of other readers; you know, the ones you are trying to sway…

    • #46689 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Catch this documentary whilst it’s still available (I had to go to Yandex to get it):
      ‘Vaxxed’: https://yandex.com/search/?text=vaxxed%20%20full%20documentary&lr=10393#/videowiz?filmId=14198001379660086214
      Instead of telling me how ignorant I am, why not watch and read the evidence I provide, then provide counter evidence, if you can?

      • #46710 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        I already watched and commented about Vaxxed the last time you went through this ignorant and misleading dance. It is merely Wakefield’s self-justification for his unethical use of children as test subjects, bolstered by emotive cherry-picked interviews with distressed parents. As such it is disgustingly selfish and exploitative.

        Vaxxed is conspiracy theory not science, and our whole communicational problem is that you can’t recognise either, and thus can’t tell them apart. The tools for doing so are in Bad Science, but you refuse to read it and insist upon continuing to preach from ignorance.

        The massive differences between conspiracy theory and science are NOT about which conclusions are reached, but about HOW the conclusions are reached. Paul, you don’t know how to reason and discuss scientifically, and you refuse even to recognise that there is a false mode of reasoning known as conspiracy theory; you see that term itself merely as an insult concocted to discredit “The Truth”. Until you rectify this deficiency in your knowledge it is impossible to hold a science-orientated conversation; you will continue to cherry-pick, bolstering with emotive rhetoric, and allegations of conspiracy of unquantified relevance.

        My previous experience suggests that I am wasting my time and effort, but here is an example to illustrate my point.

        A driver of a Citroen car suffers timing-belt failure and consequent engine damage. He goes to a Citroen main dealer and is advised that all damaged parts must be replaced with original Citroen parts, at large expense.

        He mentions the massive estimate to an amateur mechanic, who tells him that main dealerships always recommend only original parts because they are required to do so by the manufacturer, for reasons of profit. This mechanic presents a much lower estimate, but is offering to fit various used and pattern parts that would cost much less, but could be badly worn or of poorer manufactured quality than the originals.

        So the driver is in a quandary between a high price and the chance of a poor repair. How should he make a choice?

    • #46712 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      The masses of time you are spending commenting here would be better spent reading Bad Science; then you would possess at least some of the tools necessary for a sensible discussion. You might discover why I am unwilling to discuss on the basis of little snippets extracted from the multitude of non-scientific websites that have proliferated across the ‘web in recent years.

    • #46731 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, you linked to and embedded an extract from “Scientists in Canada Being Censored from Covering Dangers of Aluminum in Vaccines”.

      I have now had the chance to read that article more carefully, and it really is dreadful. It doesn’t even establish its central claim of censorship, despite the big red “CENSORED” banner above the article. On the contrary, it reports the publication of a paper by researchers at the University of British Columbia. Neither does it establish its other sensational claim of an attempt to “destroy [the] credibility” of the authors of the paper. And it clearly has some political axes to grind.

      I could go through the article you linked to point by point, but it would take considerable time and I have reasons for suspecting that I’d be wasting my effort; I am sure that you harbour suspicions that I’m some sort of “agent for the forces of evil”, and as a consequence you’d use any excuse to dismiss each point out of hand. In any case, my experience is that you’d then just pick a different example of such nonsense and throw that one at me instead; rinse and repeat ad infinitum, as has already happened several times on this thread alone. It is simply impossible to keep pace with this technique; there are thousands of such articles that you can pick from and post a link to in a matter of seconds, but each requires a response that takes me an hour to write. So you win, but not by science.

      This is why specific procedures apply within the scientific community, and why scientific disagreements should be debated in the scientific literature, and NOT presented directly to the public in the ‘mainstream’ media, as the article you linked to argues.

      Maybe you can suggest a way to proceed? I certainly can’t think of any more than I have already suggested.

      • #46745 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark August 24, 2019 at 15:42
        You are right that the article does not appear to show the two scientists are being censored in Canada, but regarding the ‘Banner Headline’, that refers to a separate article re the Vaccine Court in the US.
        ‘..Neither does it establish its other sensational claim of an attempt to “destroy [the] credibility” of the authors of the paper…’
        I disagree there. The newspaper report certainly does try to destroy the credibility of the two researchers, by not covering their actual research papers’ contents, and by wrongly praising other reports, like the WHO (‘..World Health Organization (WHO), funded primarily by pharmaceutical companies..’ well, some more ammo for my campaign – I never knew that before), which did not negate the researchers’ reports. In short, faced with contrary (though not diametrically opposed) reports, the MSM reporter chose the ‘Establishment’ view without giving credence to the researcher’s reports.
        Just like the MSM and Establishment rounded on Dr. Wakefield, David Noakes, Gilles-Eric Seralini and his team of researchers at France’s Caen University, Arpad Pusztai.
        Don’t bother to trot out the ‘Official Narrative’ of how breathtakingly flawed all their work was, they were hounded because of what they exposed.

        • #46823 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          Here is the article you accuse of trying “to destroy the credibility of the two researchers”:

          I have read through it, and I cannot find a single sentence criticising the scientific reputation of the researchers. There is, however, criticism of their conclusions in that particular paper; is that what you’re unhappy about?

          “Don’t bother to trot out the ‘Official Narrative’ of how breathtakingly flawed all their work was, they were hounded because of what they exposed”

          OK. So no scientific analysis is necessary. Since “Paul is virtually always right”, any contrary position is merely “The Official Narrative” and can be discounted.

    • #46742 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Excerpt from Bad Science by Ben Goldacre; Chapter 10 “Is Mainstream Medicine Evil?”; second section “The pharmaceutical industry”; paragraphs 1 and 2:

      The tricks of the trade which we’ll discuss in this chapter are probably more complicated than most of the other stuff in the book, because we’ll be making technical critiques of an industry’s professional literature. Drug companies thankfully don’t advertise direct to the public in the UK – in America you can find them advertising anxiety pills for your dog – so we are pulling apart the tricks they play on doctors, an audience which is in a slightly better position to call their bluff. This means that we’ll first have to explain some background about how a drug comes to market. This is stuff that you will be taught at school when I become president of the one world government.

      Understanding this process is important for one very clear reason. It seems to me that a lot of the stranger ideas people have about medicine derive from an emotional struggle with the very notion of a pharmaceutical industry. Whatever our political leanings, everyone is basically a socialist when it comes to healthcare: we all feel nervous about profit taking any role in the caring professions, but that feeling has nowhere to go. <b>Big pharma is evil: I would agree with that premise.</b> but because people don’t understand exactly how big pharma is evil, <b>their anger and indignation get diverted away from valid criticisms</b> – its role in distorting data, for example, or withholding life-saving AIDS drugs from the developing world – and channelled into infantile fantasies. ‘Big pharma is evil,’ goes the line of reasoning, ‘therefore homeopathy works and the MMR vaccine causes autism.’ This is probably not helpful.

      • #46744 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        ‘…‘Big pharma is evil,’ goes the line of reasoning, ‘therefore homeopathy works and the MMR vaccine causes autism.’ This is probably not helpful.’
        No, indeed that line of reasoning isn’t helpful; but it does fortify the original reason I gave for not reading Goldacre – I told you I used to read his regular column in the Guardian (pretty sure it was the Guardian) and I was not impressed.
        He has set up a straw-man argument, and an extremely poor one at that. None of the doctors or parents in the articles and videos I linked use that argument.
        They give solid reasons for what they claim, including parents who noticed a dramatic change in their babies/children immediately or very shortly after vaccinations.
        I’m really surprised you gave me such a sloppy bit of ‘reasoning’ to show Goldacre’s ‘wisdom’.

        • #46750 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “None of the doctors or parents in the articles and videos I linked use that argument”

          No, but he wasn’t replying to that article you fool, and it is essentially your argument; “they are conspiring to kill us all, so every anti-establishment position is more true than theirs”.

          • #46752 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ Clark August 26, 2019 at 17:01
            As a Christian I have very good reason to believe that those in power are essentially evil; Jesus on at least three occasions referred to the Devil as the ‘Prince of this world’. I do not, however, expect you to believe that, just because it is in the New Testament. However, having that as an anchor, I am much more sure of the evil nature of our ‘Leaders and Betters’ when I see the results of their actions – not just selfish and self-serving, but in so many cases downright evil.
            Here is another ‘anchor’ from the New Testament: ‘And the devil led him (Jesus) into a high mountain, and shewed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And he said to him: To thee will I give all this power, and the glory of them; for to me they are delivered, and to whom I will, I give them. If thou therefore wilt adore before me, all shall be thine.’ Luke lV : 5-7
            It is my faith (and like I say, I don’t expect you to share it) which bolsters what otherwise would seem to be a cock-sure overconfidence in my assessments. It is also the result of a long life (I sense it coming to a close before long) largely campaigning against literally murderous, barbarous regimes, all too often supported by the so-called ‘Western Democracies’. Nowadays, they hardly bother to even profess to be ruled by treaties and agreements – take the false invasion of Iraq for non-existent WMD’s, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Venezuela, the reversion to good old Piracy by the ‘Royal Navy’ over the boarding and holding of the Iranian tanker.
            International Treaties? Only till they don’t serve their pro-Western purposes.
            Yes, I do tend to see evil surrounding us on all sides, but not from ‘conspiracy theories’ or paranoia, but from very real conspiracies and murderous crimes: Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: ‘..I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it..’ (Re 500,000 dead children due to Western sanctions, just like they are applying now against Syria, Iran, Venezuela).
            And the nuking of Japan, not as claimed to speed up the end of the Pacific War, but to frighten and threaten Russia.
            Neither we nor our cousins across the pond are, and probably never have been, the ‘good guys’, though Hollywood and the MSM might not agree.

            You carry on, giving the PTB the benefit of the doubt.

          • #46757 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ Clark August 26, 2019 at 17:01
            Did Goldacre teach you the ‘straw-man’ technique, or did you teach him?
            ‘…“they are conspiring to kill us all, so every anti-establishment position is more true than theirs”.’ is not my argument, as should be clear to you.

          • #46822 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            “You carry on, giving the PTB the benefit of the doubt.”

            I think you should ask yourself why you assume that’s what I’m doing. My argument is not “the governments of the world are probably good”. My argument is “Paul Barbara and the websites he trusts are illiterate in science”. Assuming I’m a sheeple merely demonstrates your arrogance.

            “Did Goldacre teach you the ‘straw-man’ technique, or did you teach him?”

            In other words, have I conspired with Goldacre? No I haven’t. I quote him because his arguments make more scientific sense than yours, and because he has a much more convincing explanation for your behaviour than you have for his.

    • #46746 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Forcible vaccination has a rather unsavory history – ‘The American History Of Compulsory Vaccination and its Ties to Eugenics’: https://healthimpactnews.com/2015/the-american-history-of-compulsory-vaccination-and-its-ties-to-eugenics/
      People tend to forget, if they ever knew, that American history is, like most, a ‘can of worms’, from genocide of the indigenous Indians, through expansion and armed interventions into Mexico, Cuba, Hawaii, Philippines, and many other areas, through a Fascist coup plot in the 1930’s, to supporting the rise of Hitler by US banks and corporations, to it’s present slew of ‘Regime Change’ military wars and trade wars. And, of course, it’s takeover of the ‘Regulatory Agencies’ and government by the corporations, banksters and foreign and domestic lobbyists and criminal blackmailers.
      And it is getting worse.

      • #46751 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Yeah, it’s all a big conspiracy.

        Can I go home now Sir?

        • #46753 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark August 26, 2019 at 17:02
          Only after completing 100 lines: ‘I confess Paul is virtually always right’.

          • #46825 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            If you can’t see your own ego at work here then you must be blind to it. Maybe Jesus was tempted by the Devil, but you have clearly succumbed.

    • #46754 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘March 2015 Settlements in Vaccine Court: 117 Vaccine Injuries and Deaths’:

      Look through the list of vaccine injuries, and notice not one case mentions autism.
      I wonder what the reason could be? Oh, I wonder if it could possibly be because: ‘…That fund, the Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund, is currently over $3.5 billion, largely because the U.S. Government refuses to even hear cases related to autism which would quickly deplete the fund. (See: How the Government has Earned $3.5 BILLION from the Claim that Vaccines Don’t Cause Autism.)…’
      Crafty lot, aren’t they? But megabucks at stake…
      One of the agencies (I believe it was the CDC) even admitted only about 1% of vaccine injuries even get reported.

      • #46826 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “Look through the list of vaccine injuries, and notice not one case mentions autism. I wonder what the reason could be?”

        It could be that there is extremely strong scientific evidence that the MMR vaccine does not cause autism.

        Would you know where to look for such evidence? Would you know how to assess its accuracy? Those are questions, Paul; if you’re attempting discussion rather than ideological bludgeoning, please attempt to answer them.

    • #46755 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      And here come the cavalry!
      ‘Nonprofit Drug Maker Produces TB Antibiotic After Private Companies Wouldn’t’:
      Nonprofit Drug Maker Produces TB Antibiotic After Private Companies Wouldn’t
      There are still decent people who work to truly cure or assist sick people, whose primary care is not filthy lucre.
      And I’m sure they earn a decent living.
      Companies need to make a profit, but not obscene profits at the patients’ or taxpayers’ expense, and by shady and dangerous illegalities.

    • #46784 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Very good interview, showing just how evil the Big Pharma Corporations are, and how they infiltrate and/or bribe government regulatory agencies (as well as assassinating doctors they see as problems):
      ‘The Persecution of David Noakes & Lyn Thyer’: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpHFkhIBiR8
      I’ve known the presenter for years, and have met David Noakes.

      • #46828 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Oh, so David Noakes isn’t a millionaire who tried to gain political power then?

        I thought you claimed to have a distrust of the ‘elite’?

        • #46852 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 3, 2019 at 12:25
          No, David Noakes isn’t a millionaire, he’s been robbed of everything.
          He is not one of the ‘Elite’, he was a well-meaning entrepreneur (in the mold of Aaron Russo).
          Just en passant, Prof. Leroy Hulsey’s report is out, in case your interested. I’m not proposing we discuss it, just letting you know things are moving on that front.

          • #46870 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            What’s this “everything” he’s been robbed of? He was operating out of Guernsey; there ain’t no paupers there; I’ve seen for myself!

            He’s not a scientist or an academic. He worked for the MSM and JP Morgan Chase Bank.

            “Prof. Leroy Hulsey’s report is out…”

            If you remember what I actually wrote on the 9/11 Thread, I suspect that WTC7 may have been subject to emergency demolition, prompted and undertaken by some very brave and determined fire-fighters, a decision made just before the WTC7 exclusion zone was enforced; there are multiple strands of circumstantial evidence which point that way. The bottom-up collapse of WTC7 tells us nothing about the top-down collapses of the Twin Towers.

    • #46794 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘JAMA Study: Flu Shots Are Killing Elderly Citizens In Record Numbers’:
      https://web.archive.org/web/20190501073703/https://newspunch.com/jama-study-flu-shots-killing-elderly/
      ‘..Inquisitr.com reports: In her blog, Attkisson cites a buried JAMA study from almost a decade ago which showed that there was no improvement in mortality rates among senior citizens with a flu vaccine, even after greatly increased vaccination rates. The study “got little attention,” she says, “because the science came down on the wrong side.”
      Whereas the researchers had set out to prove that the push for massive flu vaccination would save the world, the researchers were “astonished” to find that the data did not support their presupposition at all. The data actually shows that deaths increased, not decreased, among seniors following vaccination…’

      ‘A nursing home near Atlanta, Georgia, now reports a devastating outcome to such a policy, according to Health Impact News. All of the residents of the Hope Assisted Living & Memory Care were given a flu vaccine on Friday, November 7. Every one of the senior citizens developed an immediate fever. Within the week following, five of them died. The source reports that the facility’s typical pattern is one or two losses every six months, frequently due to Alzheimer’s.
      Questions must be asked, then, such as: do the benefits of getting a flu vaccine outweigh the risks, especially among vulnerable senior citizens? Or would they be better off choosing to reject the shot? Who benefits if evidence showing the harm of the vaccine is buried?..’

      The evidence builds up (good enough for me, anyhow. I don’t take the flu, shingles or pneumonia jabs, despite being ‘advised’ to due to my age.

      • #46827 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “do the benefits of getting a flu vaccine outweigh the risks?”

        I don’t know; how would you find out? What evidence would you have to assess, where might you find it collated, and what other matters should be taken into consideration?

        Maybe the best thing would be to compile every bad occurrence that might have been caused by a vaccination, ramp up the rhetoric and try to scare everyone off vaccination – never, ever mentioning the millions of preventable illnesses every year. After all, “Paul is virtually always right”.

        Science = “whatever Paul says”.

        • #46853 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 3, 2019 at 12:23
          If you check the list of payments for ill effects by the Vaccine Court (that I put up here previously) you will note that most of the payments are re the Flu Vaccine. Do you take it? I don’t.

    • #46839 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, the arguments you have presented on this page are very unfocussed; first it’s Zuckerberg and Facebook, then it’s Google. Then mercury in vaccines, and then glyphosate. Then the Adkins family. Then Wikipedia. Then the “human culling” theory. Then Craig’s mods are conspiring against you (retracted, thankfully!). Next it’s the ‘suppression of GcMAF, Goldman Sachs and the ‘persecution’ of millionaire and UKIP hopeful David Noakes. Then the ‘persecution’ of Wakefield, Seralini and Pusztai.

      As best I can make out, your argument goes like this:

      “I have presented so many examples that there must be corruption. As corruption has been proven, all my examples are almost certainly true”.

      This is not a scientific argument. Scientific arguments examine evidence relevant to a specific scientific claim, and only that; eg. “Merck covered up vioxx side effects” (which they did) is not evidence that fish oils increase intelligence.

      And you have a very odd idea of what is ‘natural’ and what isn’t. Drinking colloidal silver (as advocated on about half the sites you promote) is not natural, and neither is injecting anything, let alone GcMAF. Vaccines do prime the genuinely natural immune system, yet you promote the campaign of spreading fear of them.

      If you really want to know what Big Pharma get up to, you need to read Goldacre’s Bad Pharma – more than 400 pages about pharmaceutical scams with the collusion of the industry regulators. But before you could understand it you’d need to read Bad Science.

      • #46855 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark September 3, 2019 at 13:32
        I don’t agree with Noakes’ politics; I voted out, but like Craig believe some kind of deal like I think Norway has with the EU would be fine. The one thing I don’t want to see is us as under the thumb of the US and it’s ‘Trade Deals’, forcing all manner of junk down our throats like GMO’s, chlorinated chicken, hormone-filled beef and dairy and pesticides, herbicides and 5G for afters. And of course, bye bye NHS.
        I wanted out because I saw the EU as a massive building block of the NWO; I still see it that way, but I had not understood we would be putting ourselves at the mercy of the Yanks and their ‘Deals’ that we couldn’t refuse (at least, they wouldn’t be refused by the Tories).
        Sure, I tie in a lot of different things in this thread, because the issues are linked by the bad results they will have for the majority, and the vast profits they have for the PTB.
        If your Goldacre has spent 400 pages informing you and anyone else who reads his book just how evil Big Pharma is, I’m surprised it hasn’t percolated through to you yet.

        • #46869 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “I’m surprised it hasn’t percolated through to you yet”

          Again, please try to read what I actually write, rather than what you think I mean. On this thread I have repeatedly expressed my distrust of the big pharmaceutical companies. I quoted Goldacre; “Big pharma is evil: I would agree with that premise”, and I even criticised a passage that you yourself cited, because it equivocates and pulls its punches.

          But I don’t think MMR causes autism etc., and so you filter out what I’m trying to tell you. You thereby confirm Goldacre’s criticism:

          “‘Big pharma is evil,’ goes the line of reasoning, ‘therefore homeopathy works and the MMR vaccine causes autism.’”

      • #46856 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark September 3, 2019 at 13:32
        “I have presented so many examples that there must be corruption. As corruption has been proven, all my examples are almost certainly true”.
        That is broadly my position – I give so many examples that it hopefully becomes apparent that these big corporations are corrupt and evil – any exception (if you can find any) will prove the rule.
        And these same evil, corrupt corporations, as well as foreign governments, bribe and/or blackmail the eminently corruptible politicians who rule us. So they easily gain effective control of ‘Regulatory Agencies’, which are often infiltrated by ‘revolving door’ corporation plants, or emasculated by corporation lobbying of the government.
        Yesterday, I more-or-less politely declined the kind offer of electric and gas ‘Smart’ meters, another killer.
        When asked why, I replied ‘Because I’m not stupid’. 5G, Fracking, GMO’s, Regime Change wars – when are people going to wise up?

        • #46871 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “when are people going to wise up?”

          You imagine yourself to be wise. I have bad news for you; what you call the Devil is more insidious than you give credit for. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:

          “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”

          You blame the world’s problems on some evil, essentially unidentified elite, but it is far worse than that; some of the problem resides within each and every one of us. Part of it is the feeling we each have that we know better than nearly everyone else.

          • #46888 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ Clark September 5, 2019 at 13:44
            Don’t worry, I’m fully aware how insidious the Devil is, he runs the world.
            And yes, he has power over all of us, to an extent, generally working through our subconscious.
            But many people actively collaborate with the Devil, effectively selling their souls for wealth and power on this earth.
            I believe that the Devil is an actual entity, and he has armies of demons at his command.
            I don’t expect you to agree, but that is what I believe, literally.
            @ September 5, 2019 at 13:22 you state:
            ‘…But I don’t think MMR causes autism etc.,..’ Just how scientific is that? You don’t think so, so you must be right. Exactly the kind of thinking you accuse me of! Essentially, you accept the ‘Official Narrative’, and dismiss all alternative views and evidence.
            And it is not an isolated occurrence. You have preferred your own inexpert opinion over experts in other fields.

            • #46890 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              Here is some of the sort of evidence I base my view on:

              https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub3/abstract

              “We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case‐control studies, five time‐series trials, one case cross‐over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine”

              I have linked to it in a previous discussion. I have also mentioned cohort studies and case-control studies in this thread.

            • #46893 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark September 5, 2019 at 23:33
              And here is an example of an info source I get my opinions from:
              ‘Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument’:

              Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument…


              ‘..Now, all of the vaccines on the schedule, and all medical products, are required to list whatever safety testing they do. Not one of these has ever used a placebo. But some of them do safety testing anyway, like the polio vaccine, for maybe 48 hours.

              The hepatitis B vaccine that is given to every child in this country on the day it’s born, they observe for 5 days. That means if a child dies on day 6, it never happened. If a child has a seizure on day 6, it never happened. If the baby gets food allergies and is diagnosed three years later, or autism or an auto-immune disease, it never happened. That way they can say it’s safe.

              The weird thing is that there was one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, that all of this hoopla is about, it’s the only vaccine that has no safety testing listed on the insert. And for many years, Del [Bigtree] and I have been saying, “that’s weird.” Do any exist? What happened? So we sued HHS. We said, “where is it?”

              Three weeks ago they gave us the safety testing. There were 800 kids. Normally you have 20,000 kids or subjects in one of these. There were 800 kids in 8 different categories. For a drug they are going to give to billions of people. The testing lasted only 42 days.

              But 50% of the kids who were involved in that study had gastro-intestinal illnesses, serious ones, some of them for the full 42 days. 50% had respiratory illnesses, some of them for 42 days. This is a product that is worse, according to its own record, than the illness it’s pretending to prevent….’
              Seems some disconnect between your sites figures and RFK Jr.’s. I trust his.
              I shall try to send RFK Jr. the ‘evidence’ you quote, and I shall try to send RFK Jr.’s article to Cochrane, askinf them respectively to critique the other. It will take some time, I should imagine, before I get responses, if I do.

            • #46901 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “Not one of these has ever used a placebo”

              It would be unethical to give a placebo, because the doctors would be withholding preventative treatment while convincing the parents otherwise.

              Surely RFK has had this explained to him; even I know it. It is therefore dishonest of him to suggest that omitting placebo is underhand. Dishonesty is the devils work, and you need to think more carefully; doctors are more intelligent and caring than you are giving them credit for.

            • #46894 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark September 5, 2019 at 23:33
              When I tried to find your quote on the link you provided, I could not find it.
              Can you please check if you sent me the right link, and if so, explain where your quote is?
              I intend to send it to RFK Jr., with a request to comment on it (as I explain below in another comment).

              ‘…Here is some of the sort of evidence I base my view on:

              https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub3/abstract

              – “We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case‐control studies, five time‐series trials, one case cross‐over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine”

            • #46899 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              It’s the first paragraph in the sixth section “main results”. I opened the page from your copy of the link.

            • #46907 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 01:30
              Thanks for pointing out the quote. I’ll send it tomorrow (too tired now).

            • #46916 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              Good on you Paul for giving RFK the information, and the opportunity to argue his case.

              If he now attacks the reputation of Cochrane or the researchers, rather than addressing the evidence they present and the methods they employ, then you will know that he’s not arguing scientifically.

    • #46895 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      I have now contacted Cochrane; here is a copy of my email (via web form):
      How do you reconcile your claims of the safety of the MMR Vaccine against the information RFK Jr. gives re the absolute minimalistic 800 children ‘Safety Test’?
      Basically, I am not medical/technical minded, just an average Joe, and I’m asking if you would give me a critique of what RFK Jr. has written, or of the transcript of his talk, which I forward here, because the two attitudes to MMR safety differ so fundamentally:
      ‘Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument’:

      Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument…


      I must add I favour RFK Jr.’s take.

      • #46905 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        The Cochrane authors already answered you; it’s in the section “Authors conclusion”:

        “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre‐ and post‐marketing, are largely inadequate.”

        Why did you not see it? Had the devil blinded you to good works?

        • #46906 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          How did Satan manage that, Paul? Had he tricked you into looking only for the confirmation of falsity?

        • #46928 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 02:29
          ‘…“The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre‐ and post‐marketing, are largely inadequate.”…’
          How come you never saw it? If you did, how do you still accept that the MMR is safe?

          • #46940 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            I did see it. It was me that pointed it out to you.

            Grief, this is like banging my head against a brick wall!

            I have never claimed that MMR is safe. I have claimed to accept the expert consensus that MMR is safer than the diseases it prevents.

            You keep alleging a massive cover-up, but you are not a reader of scientific literature. I show you the discussion, right out in the open, and instead of becoming interested in where you might have gone wrong you just fight, fight fight.

    • #46897 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘The True Purpose of California Vaccine Bill SB276’:
      https://www.collective-evolution.com/2019/09/05/health-the-true-purpose-of-vaccines-bill-sb276/
      ‘…According to a MedAlerts search of the FDA Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database, as of 2/5/19, the cumulative raw count of adverse events from measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines alone was: 93,929 adverse events, 1,810 disabilities, 6,902 hospitalizations, and 463 deaths….’
      And these bought ‘Legislators’ want a child’s right to education reliant on playing their ‘Russian Roulette’?
      And that is without taking autism into account, because the Vaccine Court refuses to even look at cases of autism, never mind compensate them. It pretends that vaccines can’t cause autism.
      Knocked over by a car? But the car was only going at 20 MPH, so you obviously died because you had a thin skull. Act of God!

      • #46900 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        The adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from vaccination must be weighed against the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella. Note that the figures are cumulative, so these are since records of MMR began.

        You make a false case if you promote only one side of the data. These official figures also show that the repeated claim of anti-vaccination sites that “the authorities pretend that vaccines are perfectly safe”, and which you enthusiastically repeat, are also false. Falsity is, I think, what you would call “the work of the devil”.

        • #46931 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 01:41
          ‘..The adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from vaccination must be weighed against the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella. Note that the figures are cumulative, so these are since records of MMR began…’
          So where are the lists of the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella?
          And notice the CDC’s own investigation which they funded showed only about 1% of adverse reactions gets reported, which caused the CDC to cut the funding and stop the investigation continuing:
          ‘It’s True, Less Than 1% of Vaccine Adverse Effects Are Reported’:

          It’s True, Less Than 1% of Vaccine Adverse Effects Are Reported


          ‘…This was clearly alarming and would have rocked the entire industry if given the light of day. Vaccine adverse events are supposed to be rare; they shouldn’t occur in over 2 percent of shots. So, the CDC buried the study and cut ties with the researchers.

          The report states: “Unfortunately, there was never an opportunity to perform system performance assessments because the necessary CDC contacts were no longer available and the CDC consultants responsible for receiving data were no longer responsive to our multiple requests to proceed with testing and evaluation.”…’

          • #46936 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            “So where are the lists of the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella?”

            Obviously, there is no list of adverse outcomes from diseases that were prevented. By vaccination. Stop fighting and start thinking, with that God-given brain thing in your skull. You keep shooting the allies.

            • #46939 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              You keep shooting the allies because they are <b>not</b> shooting back. A bit like the US and its attitude to “countries with weapons of mass destruction”.

              They’re not shooting back because they have their faces buried in academic journals, diligently trying to make sense of the vastly complex world we find ourselves in. But just dismiss them as either agents or sheeple; the real heroes are political hopefuls, members of US political dynasties, and businessmen. Scientists are all scum.

    • #46904 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      This is all a massive distraction.

      In a humane, just society, parents of autistic children would get support no matter what caused the autism. But the US is not a humane, just society; it is a viciously capitalist society, so parents have only the chance of “compensation”. And they can only get that if they can prove that the autism was caused by some entity that has enough money to pay them.

      Consequently lobby groups develop, and some people, maybe mistaken but possibly unscrupulous, amplify or even exploit the distress and poverty of parents to become figureheads and ‘heroes’, and sometimes to gain an income for themselves.

      The fundamental evil is capitalism, which sets everyone in competition with everyone else.

      • #46932 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 02:17
        ‘..This is all a massive distraction….’ Not for those affected.
        ‘..The fundamental evil is capitalism, which sets everyone in competition with everyone else…’
        So what to do? End capitalism?
        Much easier to campaign for no mandatory vaccines, and proper vaccine testing and accountability from the Big Pharma Corporations.
        Or just stand around, wringing our hands and tearing our hair, and letting the murderous Big Pharma and their government and media cronies carry on poisoning us and our children?

        • #46937 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “Not for those affected”</em

          You have forgotten those affected by preventable illnesses. Again. Or do they not matter, because natural diseases are a Gift from God? Rubella <b>is</b> known to cause autism, but I suppose you might regard that as good, natural autism.

          “Much easier to campaign for no mandatory vaccines, and proper vaccine testing and accountability from the Big Pharma Corporations”

          Oddly enough, that’s exactly what Ben Goldacre does. His work forced a parliamentary review. And no, he doesn’t consider the matter closed by that, not by a long way.

          It’s NOT what you are doing, no matter that you think it is. By spreading FUD and promoting propaganda (albeit contrarian propaganda), you are increasing the push towards mandatory vaccination.

          Contrarian propaganda is just as bad as establishment propaganda. It’s like trying to fight for peace. There’s only one formula:

          TRUTH, Justice, Peace.

    • #46930 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Here’s Cochrane’s (very speedy) answer:
      ‘Thank you for your message.

      Cochrane is a global independent network of researchers producing reviews of health evidence. As such, the organisation does not take a stance on the findings of individual research papers. We simply support evidence-based decision-making by clinicians and patients.

      For information from Cochrane on the evidence regarding the MMR vaccine you would need to search for relevant reviews in the Cochrane Library: https://www.cochranelibrary.com .’
      So they pass on commenting on RFK Jr.’s speech/transcript. Pity they couldn’t stretch their parameters a bit to indicate where they think he is wrong. Hopefully I’ll get a better response from RFK Jr.

      • #46938 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        You could have read that paper properly before zapping off an e-mail. And then some of their other papers on the same subject. The page I linked to was only the abstract; the full work is a systematic review, which means it’s based on a host of other papers. You could read them. In fact, you could probably spend an entire lifetime in the Cochrane Library. But you obviously have promotional activities that you find more rewarding.

        • #46948 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 14:16
          You’re right, I do have better things to do than combing through a stack of reports I mostly probably wouldn’t understand.
          But given they admit the MMR was inadequately tested (rather a mild way of putting it), as you pointed out, why do you still support it?
          Given most testing is done by the Corporations, or paid for by them, the fact that Cochrane claim no funds are received from Big Pharma (but they do admit government and NGO funding, which can effectively be the same, ‘guided’ by Big Pharma), and all Cochrane does is evaluate these test papers, then Cochrane just seems like a higher-class Media propagandist for what the governments (and their paymasters, Big Pharma among others) want them to publicise.
          What is required is real testing, on animals (something I am generally against, but accept in cases like this that do not cause intentional pain and trauma (like making rabbits smoke cigarette smoke, or putting caustic products in their eyes).

          • #46954 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            I haven’t exactly supported MMR. I have said that the way the websites you promote go about attacking it is entirely misleading. They undermine public understanding of the very nature of science.

            If there are problems with the science, the Cochrane library looks like an excellent starting point for examining papers because researchers submit reviews of so many papers to the Cochrane library.

            If you’re just going to dismiss all science as corrupted or even actually reversed by big money, then you should confine your arguments to ideology (“vaccination is unnatural”) and politics (“capitalism corrupts everything”), or straightforward conspiracy theory (“they’re out to kill us all!”).

            What you shouldn’t do is cherry-pick science as if science supported your position, because you don’t yet possess enough understanding of science to do that with honesty so instead you inadvertently turn scientific material into propaganda. That is entirely the wrong direction; please read Goldacre, he definitely looks like a decent sort to me. You’ll be surprised by Bad Science; more than anything it’s a very powerful criticism of the corporate media.

    • #46933 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Food for thought:
      ‘Germany ‘among worst in Europe’ for vaccinating children’:
      https://www.thelocal.de/20170113/german-children-insufficiently-vaccinated-against-measles
      ‘..”It is sad that Germany comes in last in Europe in terms of eliminating measles,” said President of Berlin’s Robert Koch Institute (RKI) Lothar Wieler in a recent report…’
      ‘..However, despite lagging behind the desired vaccination rate, 2016 saw a dramatic drop in reported cases of measles…’
      Ah, but….’11 Countries with the Highest Rates of Autism in the World’:
      https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/11-countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-autism-in-the-world-357960/
      ‘…This theory fails to explain the low autism prevalence in countries like France, with 5 cases in 10,000 people or Germany, with just 1.9. Germany’s neighbor Denmark has an autism rate of 68 cases in 10,000 people, which is a staggering difference…’
      I wonder if there isn’t a link between Germany’s low rate of vaccination, and there very low number of autism cases?

      ‘Measles death in Germany prompts calls for mandatory vaccinations’:
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/german-health-official-mandatory-measles-vaccinations-child-dies
      Possibly because the child wasn’t vaccinated – I admit.
      But, what is more dangerous? The vaccine, or the measles?
      ‘Measles Vaccines Kill More People than Measles, CDC Data Proves’:

      Measles Vaccines Kill More People than Measles, CDC Data Proves


      ‘…Parents concerned about their vaccinated children potentially contracting measles from unvaccinated children may want to consider the fact that the bigger health threat is technically the vaccine, not the disease itself. Comparative data provided by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reveal that nobody has died from measles in more than 10 years, while at least 108 deaths reported in VAERS during the same time frame have been linked to measles vaccines….’
      And of course, we know that VAERS reporting of adverse reactions is extremely low….

      • #46941 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “what is more dangerous? The vaccine, or the measles?”

        Congratulations on at last asking the right question. Nearly. It should be “what is more dangerous? The vaccine, or the adverse effects from the <b>resultant higher levels of measles plus mumps plus rubella?”

        “…technically…”

        This really is the operative word here, because they have compared the low (in fact zero) measles deaths in a mostly vaccinated population against the deaths attributed to vaccination.

        “we know that VAERS reporting of adverse reactions is extremely low”

        For God’s* sake think here. Yes, reporting of “adverse reactions is extremely low”, but most adverse reactions are fevers and other minor matters that parents are prepared for and thus often don’t bother reporting. But how low is it for the serious reactions – hospitalisation, disability and death? All of these would show up in health records, and researchers, independent and otherwise, use health records to study vaccine safety.

        * “For God’s sake” – literally. God is truth, the devil is falsity. Stop doing the devil’s work by failing to think!

    • #46957 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘…If you’ve been following the global vaccine debate you’ll likely know Del Bigtree, whose recent testimony we’re so pleased to be sharing with you today.

      It takes serious courage to stand up to the most powerful lobby in the world, but that’s exactly what Del has dedicated himself to since learning several years ago of the coverup by Center for Disease Control (CDC) of a study proving a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

      Del’s explosive testimony reveals a staggering lack of scientific testing on vaccines and the alarming rate at which more vaccines are being added to the schedule. Meanwhile levels of childhood disease and behavioral problems are soaring, and the medical establishment can provide no answers as to why that might be…’
      ‘Expert Witness Testimony from Del Bigtree’:

      Expert Witness Testimony from Del Bigtree

      • #46959 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “Del’s explosive testimony reveals a staggering lack of scientific testing on vaccines…”

        Well that has to be untrue, because just above I linked for you a systematic review of “five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case‐control studies, five time‐series trials, one case cross‐over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children”.

        “Expert Witness Testimony from Del Bigtree”

        Well it must be about film and television production then, because that’s what he’s an expert in.

        • #46961 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 6, 2019 at 17:55
          That was why I wanted to get each to answer to the other’s claims – because there was such a big gap. But even Cochrane admits the MSM testing is inadequate, as you pointed out. Given the 14,000,000-odd children they seemed to claim ere included altogether, why do they say the testing is inadequate?
          No testing was done with placebos – and contrary to what you claimed, that kind of testing would NOT require the testers to lie to parents – they would be told the truth – that it was a vaccine v placebo, but would not be told which their child had been administered. The one test the agencies and Big Pharma fear like the Devil is supposed to fear ‘Holy Water’ (I believe that is baloney) is a large test of vaccinated children versus completely unvaccinated children, because just because some children may not have had the MMR vaccine, they could have had others which had adjuvants or where harmful in their own right.
          So there we go again – where there is a discrepancy, you assume Del’s statement to be untrue, whereas I believe it is Big Pharma, the government and their ‘Regulatory Agents’ and the media and other propagandists who are lying and/or covering up.
          That the PTB and the Corporations have no compunction in killing or poisoning us with pesticides, herbicides, GMO’s, lead (known as a danger long before it was removed from household water pipes and petrol, and toothpaste tubes – remember the black ring round the top of the toothpaste? They quietly switched to plastic tubes, without an explanation), Climate Change, killing us and others in wars based on lies or False Flag operations, spending vast amounts on arms and neglecting health, social services and so on you probably agree, yet you persist in having a misplaced trust in a Big Pharma and Regulatory Agencies you admit are crooked. I really don’t understand it.

    • #46965 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      ” that kind of testing” [with placebo] “would NOT require the testers to lie to parents”

      Sorry, that’s unlikely to work. The parents on the anti-vax side are going to want to know that their children aren’t getting vaccine, and those on the more conventional side are going to want to know that they are. You’re going to end up with a tiny subset that aren’t representative of the population at large because of other quirky behavioural differences they have from the two major groups.

      “But even Cochrane admits the MSM testing is inadequate, […] why do they say the testing is inadequate?”

      Cochrane don’t admit that; Cochrane was set up specifically to examine and criticise medical science.

      I don’t know what you mean by “MSM testing”; typo?

      The paper doesn’t say the testing is inadequate, it says that “the design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre‐ and post‐marketing, are largely inadequate.” That is not the same as “a staggering lack of scientific testing on vaccines”.

      To discover the difference it would help to read the paper, plus probably several of the papers it reviews, to find what the criticisms actually consists of. You would presumably need to learn some epidemiology, statistics and some technical terms.

      But instead you turn to a smattering of political hopefuls, entrepreneurs , “nutritionists”, “naturopaths”, ex-newspaper men and film producers, and treat their word literally like gospel, like a message that will save its believers. This bunch share some striking similarities. Firstly, hardly any of them are scientists or academics, or have any scientific background. But more importantly none of them are active in the scientific literature, they all communicate directly with the public or even market directly to them, and they all act as if the scientific literature is so hopelessly corrupted that it’s worse than useless. This is anti-science, popular among US Republicans.

      We see this enthusiasm for directly swaying the public and disdain for debate in the scientific and academic literature in other subjects – most notably in climate change denial, but also militaristic “security consultants” with their objectionable views on “terrorists”, and politicians’ advocacy for economic policies that benefit only the rich.

      “…you assume Del’s statement to be untrue, whereas I believe it is Big Pharma, the government and their ‘Regulatory Agents’ and the media and other propagandists who are lying and/or covering up. That the PTB and the Corporations have no compunction in killing or poisoning us…”

      I din’t assume Bigtree’s statement to be untrue; I cited evidence that it’s untrue. And just because a government does something doesn’t automatically make it evil. Governments fund education, benefits, the NHS and road safety campaigns. You already know this, because you compare EU regulation against more lax and corporate-friendly US regulation eg. food standards and pesticides. In the US, pharmaceuticals can be marketed directly to the public whereas in the EU this is very much against the law. Pharma respond in the EU by funding and influencing patient lobby groups, to get their message into the corporate media by the back door.

      But we are going over point after point that are covered much better by Goldacre; you’re using up oodles of my time by refusing to read his books.

    • #47027 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘2 Month Old Baby Dies 12 Hours After Receiving 8 Vaccines – Pediatrician Denies Link’:

      The medics wouldn’t even report the death to VAERS. Who, in their right minds, thinks a 2-month old baby should have 8 vaccinations in one visit to pediatrician?

      ‘…I hear case after case of babies dying after vaccines and the parents supposedly falling prey to what the establishment terms “the coincidence dragon” (see slide from Smith 2013 PMID: 23654058)…’ (Dr. Suzanne Humphries).

      • #47034 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Many millions of vaccinations are given each year. One unconfirmed story tells us nothing, and promoting this stuff, particularly the gross exaggerations and lies (eg: ‘Measles Vaccines Kill More People than Measles, CDC Data Proves’), amounts to fear-mongering – you know, like the ‘Islamic terrorism’ agenda.

        Learn how to make a proper case or stop fear-mongering.

        • #47037 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 9, 2019 at 16:50
          ‘…One unconfirmed story tells us nothing…’
          But what I copied out was ‘…‘…I hear case after case of babies dying after vaccines and the parents supposedly falling prey to what the establishment terms “the coincidence dragon” (see slide from Smith 2013 PMID: 23654058)…’ (Dr. Suzanne Humphries)…’. We have a well respected medical doctor here, and she started out believing in vaccines, and giving them to her patients and there children. She realised the obvious truth, and although she doesn’t counsel people against vaccines, she does believe they need to know the truth about there dangers.
          You seem to have no empathy for the baby or it’s parents.
          ‘..one unconfirmed story…’ tells me plenty – a healthy 2-month old baby, parents who trusted the CDC and their guidelines, but unlike you, I or Goldacre, they didn’t know just how corrupt the CDC and others were.
          Again, do you honestly believe it makes sense to give 8 vaccines in one session to a 2-month old baby?

        • #47100 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September
          I’m actually not mistaking the info for anything – I know damn well what it is, the human baby detritus from the evil, insatiable Big Pharma Profit Maw.Mercury and aluminium are neurotoxins, and should not be injected into a human being, never mind day-old babies. If you have learnt otherwise from Goldacre or any other source, you have learnt wrong.
          There are scientists and scientists, doctors and doctors. Don’t believe in the likes of Mengele; putting neurotoxins into babies’ bloodstreams would be par for the course for him, but your local GP or paediatrician should be highly averse to it, unless he/she is being paid very handsomely to commit this heinous crime.

          • #47121 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            Paul, I expect you know hardly any toxicology. Neither do I, but at least I’m aware of my ignorance.

            A quick search shows that aluminium is the third most common element in Earth’s crust. We all ingest aluminium every day, even babies. It’s in food, and it is used in the water purification process. It’s in toothpastes, and cooking utensils are made from it.

            But what difference does it make? You’re only using mercury and aluminium as a stick to beat vaccines with. Even if some vaccines were proven perfectly safe, you’d still spread as much FUD about them as you could dredge up. I’ve told you and shown you where to find more information, but you apparently came to your conclusions years ago and it’s pointless to ask you to reconsider. It’s simply believe Paul, and anyone who disagrees must be either stupid or evil. Well bully for you; you’re really clever and righteous.

      • #47038 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        I don’t even know to what extent the story is true; as usual it’s highly emotionalised, and it’s obviously about blaming vaccines no matter what, no question of rational enquiry. There’s masses of this sort of stuff and it usually turns out to have been highly exaggerated, like the “108 Deaths from MMR” above.

        If there are court cases, there are presumably court records, with evidence and scientific theory presented. Those would provide much more reliable information than this sort of thing.

    • #47065 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, the basic problem here is that whether vaccination confers more good than harm is a scientific question, but the websites you link to make either emotive arguments eg: “look at my baby. It was vaccinations I tell you”, or political arguments like “taxpayers shouldn’t have to pay for this; pharmaceutical companies should pay out for all the autism but the government covers it up for them”, but there’s no analysis as to whether it really was vaccines that hurt the baby, or whether vaccines really do cause autism.

      The stories sometimes refer to science. A bit. An article maybe mentions one specific scientific paper, or maybe quotes some scientist or academic – as if science was determined by their authority rather than evidence. There is hardly ever a link to the academic discussion of any paper mentioned, no attempt to put those snippets in context. For instance it’s never explained why the vast majority of relevant experts have dismissed the MMR-autism theory, never a link to a systematic review at, for instance, the Cochrane Library. The counter-evidence is barely mentioned at all, except to dismiss it out of hand as “part of the cover-up”.

      Paul, if you’ve mistaken this stuff for scientific discussion, I can’t really blame you because that’s what the MSM has been priming you for all your life. It looks sciency but it isn’t science, just like in the MSM. You do realise that it was the MSM that hyped Wakefield’s baseless MMR-autism scare in the first place, using exactly the same techniques? About 3400 stories from 2001 to 2004, over 1200 stories in 2002 alone. The Telegraph pushed it really hard.

    • #47154 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Captured Agency’ PDF: https://ethics.harvard.edu/files/center-for-ethics/files/capturedagency_alster.pdf
      Whilst about the Telecommunications business, it is the same as the Big Pharma and Big Agri businesses.
      How can anyone side with such a crooked bunch of heinous sociopaths?
      The only thing that could bring about change is if people became aware of the very real dangers of these technologies, pseudo-medical procedures and Frankenfoods, which the Corporations, MSM and most government agencies do there level best to prevent, alongside their useful idiots in social media who parrot their lies.

      • #47158 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        “The only thing that could bring about change is if people became aware of the very real dangers…”

        I agree. So don’t kick up a smokescreen for them by amplifying imaginary ones, it just makes their opposition look stupid.

    • #47156 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      “We now live in a nation where doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the press destroys information, religion destroys morals, and our banks destroy the economy.” (Chris Hedges).
      Jolly accurate quote I came across by accident; though he states ‘nation’, he could almost as well said ‘world’.

      • #47165 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        The whole of Chapter 2 of Bad Science is about how teachers, or rather education authorities, helped destroy education by buying and promoting a US course of classroom exercises called Brain Gym. Nearly every chapter has examples of how the corporate media destroys understanding.

        While Hedges’ statement resonates with me, strictly speaking it is overstated and misattributes blame; eg. it’s less doctors and more the pharmaceutical companies that are responsible when people’s health is damaged by their products.

    • #47159 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Here’s the MSM:

      https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/suppressed-report-shows-cancer-link-to-gm-potatoes-436673.html

      Can you see anything wrong with that? Is it a scientific article, ie. is there any evidence to assess (scientific), or is it just a report about conflicting claims by people (like in politics)? Who was the article written by, and were they a science journalist or not? Does the article accurately reflect the paper it refers to? How useful is the experiment described in the original paper?

      http://www.gmfreecymru.org.uk/pivotal_papers/feedingrats.htm

      • #47171 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark September 15, 2019 at 01:33
        The Russian trials were claimed to be badly flawed, as indeed was there serious attempts to hide the results they had come up with.
        I supported Dr. Puztai at the time, and still do.
        Would you eat GMO foods if you had a choice?
        Do you have your annual flu jab?
        Do you accept that the roll-out of 5G is benign, and would you welcome a Smart Meter?
        Remember John Gummer who infamously fed his daughter a hamburger at the height of the mad cow disease scare?
        As it happened, she did not come down with it, but that was more by luck than judgement.

        • #47172 Reply
          Clark
          Guest

          “The Russian trials were claimed to be badly flawed”

          I linked to the paper right there; you can assess it for yourself, you don’t need anyone to tell you, and you can assess whether the Independent covered it scientifically, or as a political slanging match. If you look at the Independent link, you’ll see it was in the Lifestyle section, not the Science section, and the article makes no consideration of the science.

          “I supported Dr. Puztai at the time, and still do”

          Science isn’t about who we “support”. It isn’t football. It’s about whether results support conclusions, and Puztai’s didn’t.

          “Would you eat GMO foods…?”

          No, but that’s because I’m boycotting them, not because I’m selfishly scared for my personal health; they’re no more dangerous than other crops, which for decades haven’t had only “natural” DNA either. GM crops deprive farmers of autonomy and thereby place the global food supply at risk, and that’s why I boycott them.

          “Do you have your annual flu jab…?”

          I’m not yet old enough to be in the “risk group”. But I’d know how to research my personal choice, whereas you repeatedly demonstrate that you don’t know where to start, and refuse to find out.

          “Do you accept that the roll-out of 5G is benign…?”

          It’s driven by profit, and the health effects of the higher frequency bands are inadequately tested. But it isn’t a conspiracy to install death rays in every town, and making that claim just loses us credibility with the thousands of engineers, just everyday workers, who design, test and install it.

          “…and would you welcome a Smart Meter?”

          I have repeatedly turned down a “smart” meter. But again, that’s because it’s an intrusion into privacy and because it enables remote disconnection of supply, not because there’s some death ray hidden in it. Such claims just lose us credibility, because they are not consistent with evidence.

          • #47420 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ Clark September 15, 2019 at 12:22
            Thanks for your concern for my health, as I hadn’t posted for a while. I’m still alive (much to many people’s chagrin).
            ‘..“I supported Dr. Puztai at the time, and still do”
            By that I meant I realised he was being pilloried because he was calling into question the Big Agri ‘Frankenfood’ business. His experiments, though flawed, gave ample reason to follow them up, using better practices.
            ‘..No, but that’s because I’m boycotting them, not because I’m selfishly scared for my personal health…’
            Selfishly scared for your personal health? What a strange thing to say. So all those who eat what they consider are healthy foods, are selfish in your eyes, and should selflessly eat poisons?
            ‘..they’re no more dangerous than other crops…’ Many people disagree, but Monsanto and their propaganda MSM agree with you.
            ‘..you repeatedly demonstrate that you don’t know where to start, and refuse to find out..’
            On the contrary, I have all the anecdotal and medical information I need to have made my decision to avoid the mercury-containing flu shot like the plague.
            ‘..But it isn’t a conspiracy to install death rays in every town, and making that claim just loses us credibility with the thousands of engineers, just everyday workers, who design, test and install it…’
            More straw-man stuff. Have I ever said it was a ‘death ray’? I do say it is very harmful, and I believe it will intentionally be used for nefarious purposes.
            ‘I have repeatedly turned down a “smart” meter. But again, that’s because it’s an intrusion into privacy and because it enables remote disconnection of supply, not because there’s some death ray hidden in it. Such claims just lose us credibility, because they are not consistent with evidence.’
            More straw-man attacks. I haven’t said, nor implied, it is a ‘death ray’ machine, but that it is very dangerous, and has killed many people, and will kill many more.
            I am also against it for the reasons you share, and also the fact that a great many people have said their bills rise instead of fall after they are installed (I believe that is another strong reason the the Utility Companies are keen to push them out – they allow easier surreptitious manipulation of the price.

            And here is a new article on polio vaccines, and here I go further than the article, in believing this is a deliberate spreading of the disease: ‘WHO Admits Polio Vaccines Are Causing Polio’:
            WHO Admits Polio Vaccines Are Causing Polio
            Bush Sr. and Cheney discussed the use of artificial pandemics to be used to practice genocide against Black people (Bush used the ‘n’ word) in East and West Africa, and Haiti, according to Cathy O’Brien in her two books, ‘TranceFormation of America’ and ‘Access Denied: For Reasons of National Security’.

            • #47434 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “…I realised [Dr. Puztai] was being pilloried because he was calling into question the Big Agri ‘Frankenfood’ business. His experiments, though flawed, gave ample reason to follow them up, using better practices”

              His experiments were followed up, and continue to be; the scientific consensus is that genetically modified foods must be tested for safety on a case-by-case basis. But the same goes for anything potentially edible, and our present-day lists of what is edible and what is poisonous are based on millennia of trial and error. In this respect, GM foods are no different to any others; they are merely newer.

              “So all those who eat what they consider are healthy foods, are selfish in your eyes […] ?”

              I’m not saying they’re particularly selfish people; we are all selfish people, selfishness is in the nature of us that we should be striving to overcome. But yes, I am saying that it’s a selfish concern; a concern about the self.

              We should remember that globally, the major danger around food and nutrition is not getting enough of it; famine and malnutrition. When genetic modification can improve nutritional security it should be praised and welcomed, not demonised with ungrounded fears and emotive sound-bites such as ‘frankenfoods’.

              “I haven’t said, nor implied, [that “smart meters” are] a ‘death ray’ machine, but that it is very dangerous, and has killed many people, and will kill many more”

              I take it you mean that the communication components are deadly, which is what I meant by “death ray”. At present this is very unlikely to be true, because they use the same communications infrastructure as the rest of the various communications networks; there is no health basis for singling out “smart meters”. 5G however uses much higher frequencies than before, and health testing of those higher frequencies is insufficiently public.

              “WHO Admits Polio Vaccines Are Causing Polio”

              It’s not an “admission”; it is a problem with the oral vaccine that was known and anticipated. The article merely adds misleading anti-vax spin to the health institutions’ own monitoring reports.

            • #47436 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark September 25, 2019 at 13:45
              ‘…I take it you mean that the communication components are deadly, which is what I meant by “death ray”. At present this is very unlikely to be true, because they use the same communications infrastructure as the rest of the various communications networks; there is no health basis for singling out “smart meters”…’
              You don’t seem to know much about radiation. Radio waves, X-rays, light waves are all forms of radiation, but have vastly different characteristics regarding safety or danger to life, human, animal, insect, plants, trees, according to their frequency and power, and whether they are regular straight-forward waves or pulsed and modulated ones.
              So different frequencies can cause different, specific damage to cells, and to specific organs.
              This is known to military (and ex-military) microwave specialists such as Barrie Trower.
              UVA can be beneficial to humans, forming vitamin D in the body, but too much can cause sunburn or even cancer.
              Similarly X-rays can detect broken bones or diseases, but can also cause cancers.
              Most so-called ‘Smart Meters’ use very high-power, frequent pulsed bursts, which can go through walls (and human tissue) and cause cell death and mutation.
              ‘..5G however uses much higher frequencies than before, and health testing of those higher frequencies is insufficiently public…’
              That is rather an understatement – Microwave Communications spokesmen have admitted that there is NO testing showing 5G is safe. But advanced militaries are fully aware of 5G’s use as weapon frequencies, though the MSM will try not to report on that. Idiotic ‘thermal tests’ for previous generations of microwave communication is known to be useless, and was insisted on because it was known that the use of that benchmark would allow virtually all commercial frequencies and powers to be utilised.

            • #47439 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “You don’t seem to know much about radiation”

              I expect I know considerably more about electromagnetic radiation than you do, Paul. I have been dabbling in electronics for forty years. I have built a couple of radio receivers, and for several years I repaired CRT television sets.

              “Most so-called ‘Smart Meters’ use very high-power…”

              That isn’t even possible. “Smart” gas meters run on batteries because they are not connected to the mains electricity supply. High power transmission would soon exhaust the battery.

            • #47440 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              All radio communications equipment has to meet government licensing requirements, which means you can look up their frequency and power. As best I have been able to determine so far, “smart” meters use either the existing cellphone network, or frequencies 1GHz or lower, similar to wireless LAN, and all are less than 1 watt.

              You’re picking up erroneous ideas by uncritically accepting the word of people like Trower. Anyone can claim anything, especially on the Internet, but that doesn’t make it true. Uncritically propagating such stuff just adds to the fog of confusion, which hinders people’s ability to understand.

            • #47444 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark September 25, 2019 at 16:42
              I made a crystal set in the late 1940’s, very early 1950’s. I certainly did not follow up my interest to the extent of being able to fix TV sets, so apparently I was wrong about your level of knowledge. But you certainly don’t show it in your comments; as for dissing Barrie Trower (on what basis?) it reminds me of your dissing 3,000 + Architects and Engineers, whilst having no qualifications in those areas.
              Professor Hulsey and his team from University of Alaska Fairbanks have just put out their 4-year investigation into WTC 7; lots of new developments coming up on that front, but apart from clueing you in, I’ll let you search it out as it is verboten here.
              Regarding the gas ‘Smart Meters’, you are almost certainly correct, so I’ll stand corrected.
              I went to a very good, and packed, public meeting in Chelsea Old Town Hall last night (Weds. 25th.), and despite my hearing difficulties was very encouraged by the quality of the panel, and the audience:

              Start-Live


              It’s a pity you don’t check these issues out, instead of relying on MSM, government, Mick West and Corporate propaganda. You would soon realise that the general public, including yourself, are under serious attack.
              You accept Global Warming is real, and support the ER business. The reason that is allowed through by the gatekeepers is because some big Corporations can make a bundle by manipulating innocent dupes, like was done in the so-called ‘Arab Spring’. Am I wrong? Which of these ‘Arab Spring’revolutions has worked out well for the ‘Soros Revolutionaries’?
              Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Syria? Only the latter has not worked to the Soros/NED plan (and Ukraine isn’t working out too well, but that of course isn’t ‘Arab’).

            • #47452 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “…dissing Barrie Trower (on what basis?)”

              I may have misjudged Trower; his declaration references many scientific sources, so he appears to have at least done considerable reading.

              Actually I suspect that the main reason I dismissed Trower was because you had recommended him. As I keep trying to explain, your approach to such matters is both created by and contributes to the greater problem, which is public misunderstanding of science, and I am not immune to the effects either, it spreads like contagion. It’s the “cry wolf” effect; it was your recommendation that associated Trower in my mind with the likes of Wakefield and Dane Wiggington.

              Please, please read Bad Science I simply can’t untangle all this stuff on my own, there is far too much for me, I need your help. The problem is far worse than you suspect, because the disinformation does not come from just one side, it comes straight out of every person’s id-ego system, out of human imperfection itself. Yes, more disinformation comes from the more powerful team, but that is merely a truism, inherent in what we mean by “more powerful”, and it does not mean that conflicting information is any more trustworthy; often it is less trustworthy – out of the frying-pan and into the fire.

              “…dissing 3,000 + Architects and Engineers, whilst having no qualifications in those areas.”

              I have O and A levels in Physics (grades A and B respectively, Oxford examination board), and O grade A in Additional Mathematics (which was more than 50% classical mechanics). My school, a state grammar, said I was one of the two best physics students in its history and urged me to take the Oxbridge entrance exam. I didn’t fancy Oxford or Cambridge (too posh and stuffy); I entered Queen Mary College, University of London but dropped out after a year, partly because most other physics graduates were getting jobs with armaments manufacturers.

              It is relatively simple to show that, following collapse initiation throughout one storey (by whatever means), the Twin Towers would have undergone rapid accelerating collapse. It is, however, very very difficult to keep a cool head and explain clearly when under continual personal insult by a concerted group, as I was on the 9/11 thread, and especially when no one listens to me, and merely wants to shut me up. When I am in London next month we should arrange to meet, with some pencils and large sheets of paper, for diagrams – I guarantee that we won’t need a calculator.

              “It’s a pity you don’t check these issues out, instead of relying on MSM, government, Mick West and Corporate propaganda”

              Bollox. Pardon my French, but I work things out for myself as best I can, and that’s exactly the sort of attitude I was complaining about in my paragraph above. Working things out for myself instead of relying on media (MSM or alternative) is why I feel so isolated.

              “Professor Hulsey and his team from University of Alaska Fairbanks have just put out their 4-year investigation into WTC 7; […] I’ll let you search it out as it is verboten here”

              Actually I have already read half of the UAF report. But rather like I dismissed Trower because of your recommendation, you have repeatedly failed to hear what I was saying on the 9/11 Post – namely, that I suspect WTC7 was destroyed by emergency demolition, set up and detonated following the collapses of the Twin Towers. And no I’m NOT saying that to “protect the official story” – screw officialdom – I’m saying it because that’s where the evidence has led me.

              “The reason that [Extinction Rebellion] is allowed through by the gatekeepers is because some big Corporations can make a bundle by manipulating innocent dupes”

              Partly, and I’m aware of that. But we need to rebel anyway. You’re leaving our salvation to God. I’m either Godless, or God’s hands – I can’t tell which because I’m merely human. I can’t tell whether the sky will open and salvation arrive from above just in time, so my conscience dictates that I take what action I can against the destruction of all nature. If God turns up and takes over: great. But I’ll quite literally be damned if I sit on the sidelines and let it happen unopposed.

    • #47250 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, you haven’t commented for a few days; is all well with you?

      • #47431 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Paul, I am glad you are well, but I do wish you would learn how science is done and where it is discussed so that you would stop spreading ungrounded fears, and instead start alerting people to the real dangers, which would be far more constructive. At present you embody the attitude to science promoted by the so-called “mainstream” media, and you can’t cleanse yourself of that attitude merely by “changing sides”. So, well motivated though you are, you repeatedly add to the problem rather than alleviating it. You repeatedly miss the mark:

        The English Biblical terms translated as “sin” or “syn” from the Biblical Greek and Jewish terms sometimes originate from words in the latter languages denoting the act or state of missing the mark; the original sense of New Testament Greek ἁμαρτία hamartia “sin”, is failure, being in error, missing the mark, especially in spear throwing; Hebrew hata “sin” originates in archery and literally refers to missing the “gold” at the centre of a target, but hitting the target, i.e. error. “To sin” has been defined from a Greek concordance as “to miss the mark”

        • #47536 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Clark September 25, 2019 at 12:37
          ‘..stop spreading ungrounded fears, and instead start alerting people to the real dangers, which would be far more constructive. At present you embody the attitude to science promoted by the so-called “mainstream” media…’
          On the contrary, I hardly ever read the MSM (apart from the Evening Standard on the Underground), never mind use their methods.
          They try to cover up and obfuscate, outright deny or ignore the truth about very real and important issues.
          You accuse ME of spreading disinfo, when you do it all the time (albeit you obviously believe what you write).
          Your invitation to meet up in London where you would convince me with a few diagrams that the Towers came down because of planes and fires is a non-starter – I know a damn sight better, so we shall have to await more evidence.
          Very glad you’re reading the Hulsey Reprt.
          You will be pleased to know your badgering has eventually born fruit – I have just ordered Ben Goldacre’s ‘Bad Science’.

          • #47543 Reply
            Clark
            Guest

            The attitudes promoted by the corporate media diffuse into the alternative media – like I said, they’re a contagion, and deadly to detached, objective analysis.

            Good on you for ordering Bad Science. I hope you enjoy it. I’ll be in London from Monday, somewhere around Westminster. If it’s anything like April, our Rebellion should be very good fun!

            Oh, one point:

            “…that the Towers came down because of planes and fires”

            I don’t rule out explosives, planted (probably post-impact) at the damaged zones. It’s the ensuing progressive collapse that the maths shows to be certain.

            • #47583 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 2, 2019 at 10:24
              ‘…I don’t rule out explosives, planted (probably post-impact) at the damaged zones..’
              When the building was still full of people??
              And many people, including William Rodriguez (who was given a medal by Bush for saving so many people) reported explosions even PRE-‘impct’.
              ‘..It’s the ensuing progressive collapse that the maths shows to be certain.’
              Amazing, you must be a genius, clearly seeing and being able to demonstrate a maths problem which is dismissed by 3,000+ A&E’s, and millions of other people around the globe.
              Old Chinese proverb, when your stuck in a hole, stop digging.
              Have fun on the Demos – you might find this of interest ‘Greta Thunberg and Big-Biz’ Climate Charade’

              Greta Thunberg and Big-Biz’ Climate Charade


              There are a number of good articles on Extinction Rebellion on Global Research.
              I personally believe man’s activities have caused the problem, and welcome ER. I just hope (though doubt) that the activism spreads to similar activities against wars, illegal unjust sanctions, arms sales, pesticides/herbicides etc., which won’t, of course, garner corporation and MSM support.

            • #47590 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              We go by XR rather than ER.

              Yeah, I’ve read stuff about Greta; the allegations you linked to originated with Cory Morningstar. I’m sure Greta herself is entirely genuine, but of course there is big money trying to make a bandwagon of it. As you’ve said yourself, not everyone making money is necessarily evil, but the love of money is the root of all evil nonetheless. There’s a good MediaLens article up. Here’s what she told the United Nations:

              “People are suffering. People are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mass extinction. And all you can talk about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth. How dare you! […] How dare you pretend that this can be solved with business-as-usual and some technical solutions.”

              http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2019/912-how-dare-you-the-climate-crisis-and-the-public-demand-for-real-action.html

              “Amazing, you must be a genius…”

              Actually, you’ll be surprised how simple it is. I was, after the years of befuddlement.

            • #47594 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 3, 2019 at 19:43
              I wish you well with the demos; it appears the police are planning new restrictions.
              Rather than trying to explain the maths to me (I did all right with algebra and geometry, but gave up on square roots and logs, to say nothing of trigonometry), why don’t you present your findings to A&E? It can’t do any harm, and it would not be difficult to email them.

            • #47597 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              I expect I’ll e-mail David Chandler when I get the chance, but in videos Richard Gage seems angry and unpleasant to me, and I think I’d have trouble maintaining the conversation. Chandler, in contrast, seems very calm and rational.

              Regarding maths, nothing more complicated than multiplication and division is required, and even those don’t need to be accurate because most of the margins are huge. The main thing is to have paper for sketching the structure, so you can visualise what happened.

              Thanks for your kind wishes. Do come and visit some of the sites; the atmosphere of calm, peaceful determination is incredible. The activists are all sorts of people, from science academics to Christians to shamans. There’s free food and hot drinks (voluntary contributions), and public performance of music, art and poetry. Love is the theme of the site I’ll be on, behind Downing Street.

            • #47601 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 4, 2019 at 01:04
              I’ve met Richard Gage about four times, and drank in the pub with him. He certainly never seemed angry to me, but he was a bit discomfited when I handed out leaflets at one of his talks which he had not vetted.
              Where exactly ‘behind Downing Street’ will you be? Is it Horse Guards Road?
              By the way, you seem to have overlooked my questions above:
              ‘@ Clark October 2, 2019 at 10:24
              ‘…I don’t rule out explosives, planted (probably post-impact) at the damaged zones..’
              When the building was still full of people??
              And many people, including William Rodriguez (who was given a medal by Bush for saving so many people) reported explosions even PRE-‘impct’.

            • #47609 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “Is it Horse Guards Road?”

              That’s where the groups from my area will be, but any of us could be doing anything elsewhere around Westminster. Iain Orr says he’ll be visiting our camp at some point; I’ll ask him to forward you my mobile number.

              “Richard Gage […] certainly never seemed angry to me”

              Yeah, but you were in agreement with him! I may be wrong; it’s just an impression I gained from some YouTube videos that I’m having trouble finding again. It’s my own emotional problem; I have to take precautions against getting dispirited.

              “When the building was still full of people??”

              Take a look at this:

              http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tPMErvl9AX4J:www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp%3Fentity%3Dventon_hollifield_1

              That’s from Google’s cache. Sorry I can’t link to historycommons.org directly; they had an appeal for funds and now their server seems to be not responding. I really hope we don’t lose History Commons; it’s a brilliant resource:

              https://wikispooks.com/wiki/History_Commons

              There are absolutely masses of stuff about 9/11 that we either don’t know, or of which there’s tragic under-awareness, eg. there’s that report of a van full of explosives heading for the George Washington Bridge (if I remember correctly), but I’ve never been able to find any follow-up. Lots of people associate it with Urban Moving Systems and the dancing Israelis, but I’ve never been able to confirm that and it seems to be a different incident.

              If it was a different incident, then there were even more entities contributing to the attacks, so looking for THE perpetrators might be a false lead in itself. Grief, there can’t be any shortage of people or groups with reason to resent the US, and such groups might also be manipulated. This is why non-violence is so essential; it is very dangerous to attempt God’s work with the Devil’s tools. The same goes for embellishing the truth to promote its popularity, or overlooking things because they contradict the position we currently favour – it seems harmless or even helpful, but we must beware the echo-chamber, we are all prone to promoting the sensational, and thus spreading distraction from the vital details.

              William Rodriguez acted heroically and was lucky to survive, but I find his earlier testimony more consistent with the big picture.

            • #47651 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 4, 2019 at 12:35
              Yes, I met Iain Orr at Blackburn when I was campaigning for Craig in 2005. I pulled a beautiful ‘double-entemble’ on him (I suspect he will remember!).
              Might as well ask him to forward your email as well.
              That ‘middle eatern’ looking teddy-bear ‘terrorist’ is a complete new one on me, and I have been avidly researching the issue since 2004. Thanks for making me aware of it – talk about ‘Red Herrings’! I can’t respond in length, as I have just come back from the pub after a good session (in both respects), but when I get round to sending the ‘teddy bear’ baloney (not an attack on you – I am really pleased you have informed me of this) round to the rest of the Truthers I am in contact with, they will burst their sides!
              2 AM, I’m pissed and have a virtually all-day Latin America Conference starting at 10 AM. I am going to be late!

            • #47688 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “That ‘middle eatern’ looking teddy-bear ‘terrorist’ is a complete new one on me, and I have been avidly researching the issue since 2004”

              Well this is the trouble. Demolition theory and the like have all but completely drowned out other matters. For instance, have you heard of Richard Blee? Do you know of the series of articles (Sunday Times I think) about Sibel Edmonds’ account of Gladio B operations that were cancelled due to pressure from the CIA?

              What seems to happen is that people see a story, see that it doesn’t support or isn’t concerned with demolition, and so they ignore or discount it. Whether by accident or design, demolition theory has to be one of the most effective red herrings around. As soon as I’d disentangled Chandler’s error my attitude to 9/11 changed. Without wanting to get too conspiralogical about it, healthy scepticism is always warranted; demolition theory could be a second line of defence after the “official story”, and I’m nearly certain it was used that way against Susan Lindauer.
              – – – – – –

              I texted Iain yesterday but I haven’t heard back from him yet. You should have my e-mail address somewhere because he copied both of us in on some of his e-mails, but my ISP deleted all my e-mails about six months ago so I’ve probably lost my copy of yours.

            • #47731 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 5, 2019 at 11:12
              Again you jump to conclusions – I hadn’t ‘dismissed’ the crazy teddy-bear ‘terrorist’ because it wasn’t about demolition, I just never came across it, and it was never brought to my attention, which for such a bizarre and ridiculous narrative is very surprising.
              I wasn’t aware of Blee, but that is not surprising, as there is really nothing strange about the CIA blocking any articles about Gladio.
              I expect to go to a Venezuela talk near Farringdon Underground tomorrow (Monday), in case you’re interested:
              https://mailchi.mp/81ce6f64389c/httpswwwmondediplofriendsorguk-venezuela-in-crisis-kashmir-with-dr-jeffrey-webber-1706793?e=34e72a74fe
              I couldn’t find the email from Iain Orr with your email. I don’t have a mobile.

            • #47740 Reply
              Clark
              Guest

              “I couldn’t find the email from Iain Orr with your email. I don’t have a mobile.”

              Thanks for the info; I haven’t heard back from Iain so I’ll try calling him this evening.

              The police have already started arresting Extinction Rebellion. They raided the warehouse with the kitchen stuff and spare bedding etc., with a battering ram, no less. Ten arrested on “conspiring to cause a public nuisance”, which sounds about as serious as conspiring to walk on a cycle path. And apparently, we’re a conspiracy!

              “Again you jump to conclusions…”

              I didn’t mean that you personally had dismissed it. I meant you’d never heard of it because other hadn’t mentioned it, due to generalised assumptions that have spread throughout the Truth Movement. It’s called “confirmation bias” – our human minds tend to favour evidence that confirms what we and those around us already believe, and it has been demonstrated in numerous psychological experiments.

              Blee was to do with the CIA’s Alec Station; I know of nothing tying him to Gladio B, but of course, that would be secret anyway. Try a search on “SecrecyKills”. He was an influential character in the background in the CIA; apparently an officer rather than an agent or an asset. His photo keeps cropping up with top CIA department directors and the like, but there’s very little information about him. But I think it was Blee who illegally stopped the reports that the alleged hijackers were in the US, which is why the FBI didn’t know until too late.

            • #47747 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ Clark October 6, 2019 at 18:33
              Hope you don’t get yourself arrested.
              Re Blee, I checked the info you gave me: ‘SecrecyKills.org Statement on the Delay in Releasing “Who is Rich Blee?”:

              SecrecyKills.org Statement on the Delay in Releasing “Who is Rich Blee?”


              It also refers to Sibyl Edmonds.
              For my part, as you probably know, I don’t believe there were any ‘hijackers’, and that the whole thing was an elaborate albeit bumbling attempt to set up a false narrative.

              Though I’m sure you’re preparing for your Demos in London tonight (are you camping there?), now that you seem to be to accept Barrie Trower as genuine, check this out: (let me know if you can open it OK):
              ‘Wi-Fi – A Thalidomide in the Making. Who Cares?’:
              https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/emerging/docs/emf_117.pdf
              As you can see, he gives all the references, and is himself an expert, having been trained in the British Army in the latest microwave warfare techniques.

    • #47750 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul I am indeed busy, and entering self-imposed ‘radio silence’ now. Hopefully see you in London.

    • #47752 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      This is a particularly informative video, and is of course linked in to the Climate Changes:
      ‘Chemtrail conspiracy theory’:

    • #47899 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, in case you’re interested in Extinction Rebellion and how its autonomous groups self-organise, Lambeth Council have ‘informally’ offered safe haven in Vauxhall Pleasure Gardens right behind MI6 Headquarters, and the police are not well pleased! Workshops, discussion groups, public talks and more. All welcome. “We need everyone, and everyone is crew”.

      • #47971 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark October 13, 2019 at 20:22
        I have only just seen this. I might have a look, if it is still on.

    • #48158 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘VACCINES – MUCH WORSE THAT YOU THINK’: A TALK BY DIETRICH KLINGHARDT, MD, PHD

      Vaccines – Much worse that you think


      Unfortunatel it is in video format, and the bveggining of each line of text is off-screen.
      This makes it difficult to check out the studies.

    • #48195 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘HPV VACCINE – A DANGEROUS FRAUD’:

      HPV Vaccine – A Dangerous Fraud


      Black is white – ‘Perfectly safe’ yet warnings on patient information in medicine packs gives the lie to that statement by the chief Medical Officer of Ireland.

    • #48650 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Similar to the use and even mandatory use of vaccines on children and adults, we have the false safety standards of mobile phones.
      ‘REMINDER – CELL PHONES ARE DANGEROUS: ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN’:

      Reminder – Cell phones are dangerous

    • #48661 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Allied to the PTB’s harmful and indeed fatal attempts on us in the vaccine field, come the microwave attacks (particularly but not exclusively via 5G).
      No one can say they can’t spare a minute and a half to watch a video:
      ‘MORE 5G TREE DEATHS IN GATESHEAD’:

      So, ‘not proven’? But certainly should be enough to get anyone seriously worried and checking things out.
      If microwaves can do that to a tree, odds are pretty high they can do a number on us, too.

    • #48746 Reply
      Rhys Jaggar
      Guest

      This is a subject over 20 years since the ‘Wakefield Scandal’ first blew up. It is indubitably the case that open enquiry without prejudice is not possible through the media.

      Here are some inconvenient truths:

      1. Wakefield et al NEVER claimed in the paper that was retracted that MMR was associated with autism. They claimed the exact opposite. It should be a defrocking event for any doctor to claim otherwise.

      The paper concerned reporting that autistic children presented with gastrointestinal disorders, facts which have never been overturned.

      2. Autism develops following the development of a state of inflammation on the brain. How that inflammation develops is not unique, either in time or by the triggers causing it. It can occur in utero, it can occur in infancy. Both genetic and environmental cues can increase the likelihood of progression to an autistic state.

      As a result, if vaccines were not the predominant trigger for autism but nonetheless were a real trigger in some cases, then statistical analyses of whole populations would not reveal the vaccine trigger. Nobody ever discusses how to analyse data when multiple causes of the same outcome may be present.

      3. In both the US and the UK, vaccine manufacturers are immune from class action prosecution due to laws passed by bribed politicians. In the US every vaccine sold contains an effective insurance premium paid into a fund used to resolve cases of adverse reactions to vaccinations. This goes against tenet of capitalism, privatising profits and socialising losses.

      4. There is pharmaceutical precedent for rare extremely serious adverse reactions to drugs in very small populations when the vast majority of recipients show no adverse reaction. This is called an IDIOSYNCRATIC DRUG REACTION and led to withdrawal of many drugs from sale despite positive effects for millions of patients. All those studying vaccine stories should brief themselves thoroughly on IDRs and the implications it may for rare adverse reactions to vaccinations.

      5. There is only one legal case in the US: Hazlehurst vs The Jackson Clinic. A whistleblower from withn the CDC, who highlighted suppression of data linking increased risk of autism amongst vaccinated black American boys, suggests that government agencies have been complicit in criminal acts of data suppression to protect pharmaceuticals profits at the cost of human health.

      6. Neither mercury nor aluminium has positive effects on brain health. Both have been found in vaccine adjuvants at various times over the past 40 years at doses found to be inconsistent with animal health during preclinical research trials.

      Billions in ‘risk free profits’ are threatened if vaccine withdrawal occurs.

      The solution to find, namely genetic profiling of cohorts unsuited to vaccination and exclusion from programmes pending alternative solutions, has not occurred in nearly 20 years after I raised the issue online.

      • #48900 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Rhys Jaggar November 20, 2019 at 11:46
        ‘…In the US every vaccine sold contains an effective insurance premium paid into a fund used to resolve cases of adverse reactions to vaccinations.”.
        I believe you will find that in the US Autism isn’t covered by the ‘effective insurance premium’, because the ‘Vaccine Court’ will not accept Autism as a possible result of vaccines.

        Here is some information I believe is absolutely damning of the US and UK attitude to vaccines:
        ‘Japan Leads the Way in Child Health: No Compulsory Vaccines. Banned Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) Vaccine’:
        https://www.globalresearch.ca/japan-no-vaccine-mandates-no-mmr-vaccine -healthier-children/5675901
        Japan took the ‘precautionary principle’, and reaped the benefits, whereas we and the Yanks take the ‘we know best’ principal – the figures say how that has panned out.

      • #49247 Reply
        Clark
        Guest

        Point 1. – “Wakefield et al NEVER claimed in the paper that was retracted that MMR was associated with autism.”

        But (a) he very much does so now, (b) he did call for three separate vaccinations instead of the combined MMR, in both a press conference and a video news release, and (c) he’d been paid £50,000 of legal aid by solicitors preparing a case against MMR.

        “The paper concerned reporting that autistic children presented with gastrointestinal disorders”

        Well, mostly autism, but the paper concerned only twelve children in total anyway, and they’d all arrived at Wakefield’s practice because that combination was what he was specialising in.

        Point 2. “…if vaccines were not the predominant trigger for autism”, then vaccines are not the predominant cause of the rise in autism, either.

        Point 3. – “vaccine manufacturers are immune from class action prosecution due to laws passed by bribed politicians”

        But in both the US and the UK, it’s the governments that promote the vaccinations, so of course it’s the governments that should pay compensation for adverse effects, which they do.

        Point 4. Yes. This defeats the anti-vaxxers’ theory that adverse reactions are completely covered up, and completely demolishes their claim that vaccines do more harm than good.

        “Billions in ‘risk free profits’ are threatened if vaccine withdrawal occurs.”

        This claim overlooks the profits that could be made by treating the additional illness that would result were there no vaccination.

    • #49063 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘WHO now openly admitting that vaccines cause more polio than actual wild virus’:
      https://www.naturalnews.com/2019-12-03-who-openly-admitting-vaccines-cause-more-polio-than-wild-virus.html
      But heck, they’re only Africans, fair game for the NWO ‘population cullists’.
      At least consider that those who expose this position of culling humanity may be right; there are plenty of historical precedents.

      • #49264 Reply
        SA
        Guest

        Paul
        This is a rather complex issue and of course is worthy of examination but not of the kneejerk scaremongering typical of organisations such as Natural News you quote. The problem is a bit more nuanced and this explains it.
        https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/polio/hcp/vaccine-derived-poliovirus-faq.html

        Briefly because the oral polio vaccine is a live weakened vaccine, it survives in the body whilst antibodies are made. It can also occasionally be transmitted from someone who was recently vaccinated to someone who is not immune. This problem seems to be common in areas where there is suboptimal vaccination cover. The answer is therefore not less vaccination but more and careful monitoring. My advice is to always look up a bit more behind scaremongering websites because there is a valid problem but the answers they offer will just produce the opposite effect, that eventually more children will get wild virus polio and we will be back to square one.

        • #49311 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ SA December 24, 2019 at 15:28
          ‘There is evidence to suggest that it’s educated people who are leading this movement.
          “As I like to say, educated enough to do a Google search, not quite educated enough to know what the hell they’re Googling.”
          That is a ridiculous as a response, as the twerp knows damn well that many of the people who are ranged against his ideas are doctors and nurses.
          Pity you didn’t highlight the exchange immediately following that:
          ‘…What’s driving it?’
          ‘That’s the most important question, and it’s one I can’t answer. There’s a lot of money behind this. Who’s paying for all this? It takes a lot of money to make PACs effective and put up all these anti-vaccine legislators…’
          Again, rather a case of ‘people living in glass houses’. I could assure the poor befuddled (or bribed?) ‘doctor’ that far more money is pushing the mega-vax line than is available to fight it – this is incontrovertible:
          ‘HANDFUL OF OLIGARCHS CONTROL ENTIRE COLLAPSING US HEALTH SYSTEM’:
          Handful of Oligarchs Control Entire Collapsing US Health System
          Above I gave links to polio being spread by vaccines in Africa; here is a case of whooping cough (there were many) spread in the States among vaccinated kids:
          ‘Children affected by Massachusetts whooping cough outbreak were all vaccinated’:
          https://www.newstarget.com/2016-02-17-children-affected-by-massachusetts-whopping-cough-outbreak-were-all-vaccinated.html

          • #49348 Reply
            SA
            Guest

            Paul
            Giving links is meaningless you have to have.
            1. The knowledge, not merely by googling.
            2. The analytic ability to look at significance of finding. This includes some knowledge of statistics.
            Quotes from scaremongering websites whether they are written by laymen, ex nurses and discredited ex consultants do not count. If it is questions of faith and conspiracies then I am afraid I can’t help you. Clark is to be admired for his perseverance.

    • #49306 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      There is evidence to suggest that it’s educated people who are leading this movement.
      “As I like to say, educated enough to do a Google search, not quite educated enough to know what the hell they’re Googling.”
      This is one of the problems with regards to unscientific thinking.
      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/08/peter-hotez-vaccines-did-not-cause-rachels-autism-india-interview

    • #49349 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      I don’t know how to break this to you but wikepedia thinks naturalness is a conspiracy/fake news website:
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_News
      But also more seriously I have looked into this Whooping cough outbreak and guess what I found behind the fake headlines?
      The outbreak may well have been amongst previously vaccinated individuals and it is now thought that it is because the effects of the vaccines do not last as long as previously thought and that the answer is therefore more vaccination not less. Win win .
      I will leave you to exercise your googling to find this out from a proper scientific source, but if you need help, do come back to me.

      • #49354 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ SA December 30, 2019 at 06:35
        I don’t know how to break this to you, but Wikipedi is known as a dodgy site. Ever heard of ‘Philip Cross’? I should think so, because he has been discussed on these Blogs many times.
        ‘Wikipedia Fraud EXPOSED: Troll farms and the CIA have hijacked the once open platform’:
        https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-12-09/wikipedia-fraud-exposed-troll-farms-and-cia-have-hijacked-once-open-platform

        ‘Jeffrey’s Take: The Philippines approves Golden Rice—A disaster waiting to happen’:
        https://responsibletechnology.org/jeffreys-take-the-philippines-approves-golden-rice-a-disaster-waiting-to-happen/?eType=EmailBlastContent&eId=9f3d1ab1-2242-4ce0-b171-110f9b1d65b4
        ‘One example is in Southern Africa. I spoke to a former Monsanto scientist who was aware that when rats were fed Monsanto’s GM corn, it damaged the rats and Monsanto simply rewrote the study to hide the effects. He was shocked.
        He said he was concerned because the amount of corn that the rats ate, which was probably a maximum of 33% and only for 90 days, was a fraction of what’s eaten as a staple in Southern Africa. What would be the impact of them eating it three times a day every day throughout their lives?
        Well, I spoke to a veterinarian in the US whose client was a farmer in South Africa, and this is reported in the movie Genetic Roulette, and I’ll just say briefly that his farmworkers were suffering from serious symptoms and very frequent deaths when they were eating the genetically engineered corn three times a day that was grown on his property.
        No one put it together, but his animals were suffering until he switched to non-GMO corn at the advice of the veterinarian, and the animal’s health got better and the farmworkers got better. Until he ran out of the corn and both the animals and the farmworkers had to then get corn from the marketplace. Both ended up suffering again until non-GMO corn was secured year-round.
        That’s an anecdotal story, but it’s about the canaries in the coal mine – the few people in the world that were eating more genetically engineered corn than anyone on the planet.
        Here we have the staple of parts of Asia, genetically engineered. Very bad idea. It’s being reviewed now by Bangladesh and at some other point, I’ll share with you how they have lied about the success of the genetically engineered eggplant in Bangladesh, paving the way to approve the genetically engineered golden rice as well.
        It is very unfortunate and I wish that this information could get to the light. Please share this.
        Safe eating.’
        And here is a case where the creator of GMO potatoes now denounces them, although a number of countries have legalised them:
        ‘The Creator of GMO Potatoes Reveals The Dangerous Truth – Exclusive Interview’:

        The Creator of GMO Potatoes Reveals The Dangerous Truth – Exclusive Interview


        I do not agree with a lot of stuff on Natural News, but then again, I do not agree with almost anything on our MSM, with good cause – they lie, spin, ignore and promote wars based on lies.

        • #49365 Reply
          SA
          Guest

          Paul
          First an apology what I wrote about Wikipedia was tongue in cheek as it was followed by “however more seriously”. As a frequenter if these pages I am fully aware of the ‘limitations’ of Wikipedia especially in political or controversial matters. It is good on other areas.
          But I hope I have answered you on whooping cough and you are now convinced.
          As to GM foods I am totally against them not nescessarily only on scientific grounds but on ideological economic and political grounds. The purpose of many HMG foods is to introduce a roundup resistant gene so you can swamp crops with Glyphosate. For me Glyphosate is an abomination. The very idea of using herbicides is crazy. Mono cultures are probably responsible for reductions in insect populations and also through toxicity. To create a monopoly in crops with devastating effects on local tradition farming as seen in India is a criminal catastrophe. And so on. So in this one I am with you.

          • #49402 Reply
            Paul Barbara
            Guest

            @ SA December 30, 2019 at 23:34
            Great, glad you are against GMO’s, mono-cropping and Glyphosate.
            5G (and less G’s) are heavy-weight bad news too.
            But I’m afraid you didn’t convince me about whooping cough; I still go along with what I wrote on 24, 2019 at 15:28.

            • #49406 Reply
              SA
              Guest

              Above I gave links to polio being spread by vaccines in Africa; here is a case of whooping cough (there were many) spread in the States among vaccinated kids:
              ‘Children affected by Massachusetts whooping cough outbreak were all vaccinated’:
              https://www.newstarget.com/2016-02-17-children-affected-by-massachusetts-whopping-cough-outbreak-were-all-

              Paul that is all you wrote, you just quoted something from newstarget, another pseudoscience website, whereas I offered you an actual scientific explanations why someone who has been previously vaccinated may still acquire the disease because of waning immunity. That does not mean that the vaccine caused the disease.

            • #49433 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ SA January 1, 2020 at 19:38
              The Mass. whooping cough cases had all been vaccinated, and as for waning immunity, they were only kids, so couldn’t have had their last injection very long before.
              In the case of the African polio, it the article states the cases were caused by the shots, because they were the same strain, not the wild variety.
              You should remember a few points – vaccines are a multi-billion dollar industry, and also many powerful people believe the earth is overpopulated, and think it would be desirable to actually cull many, and sterilize many more. I actually have a quote from a recent American President to his Vice President to that effect, but I’m sure it would get deleted.

            • #49461 Reply
              SA
              Guest

              “You should remember a few points – vaccines are a multi-billion dollar industry, and also many powerful people believe the earth is overpopulated, and think it would be desirable to actually cull many, and sterilize many more. “#

              For this scaremongering conspiracy theory to hold any traction we need data for the following
              1. How many thousands of people have actually been killed or sterilised as a result of vaccines? Any proper data, not just say so?
              2. If there is such data pointing this massive risk who exactly is doing the coverup?

              Hope you have fun researching and not from pseudoscience websites please.

            • #49525 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ SA January 4, 2020 at 12:19
              There is too much going on at present, and I am too busy dealing with current goings on to chase after more articles which you almost certainly would dismiss anyway.
              Greetings of the season.

    • #49617 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      I understand. Greetings to you too. Take care.

    • #49817 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      I know some of you don’t like this website, and I agree with you in some respects, but it does put some things in a clear, easily assimilated form, like this:
      ‘BOMBSHELL: WHO Chief Scientist caught on video overtly contradicting public propaganda videos that falsely claim vaccines work “without risks”:
      https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-01-15-who-chief-scientist-caught-on-video-overtly-contradicting-vaccine-safety-risks.html
      The W.H.O. chief scientist contradicts herself in a meeting that was not supposed to be seen by the general public and with what she says for public consumption.

      • #49818 Reply
        SA
        Guest

        Dr. Soumya Swaminathan, M.D.Chief Scientist, W.H.O., Pediatrician – W.H.O. Global Vaccine Safety Summit, Dec 3, 2019
        I think we cannot overemphasize the fact that we really don’t have very good safety monitoring systems in many countries and this adds to the miscommunication and the misapprehensions because we’re not able to give clear-cut answers when people ask questions about the deaths that have occurred due to particular vaccine, and this always gets blown up in the media. One should be able to give a very factual account of what exactly has happened and what the cause of deaths are. But in most cases, there’s some obfuscation at that level and therefore, there’s less and less trust then in the system. Putting in place the mechanisms, whether they’re cohort studies or whether they’re Sentinel Surveillance sites, to be able to monitor what’s going on and report back and then for corrective action to be taken because unexpected things could arise after introduction. And one always has to be prepared as we’ve seen, you know, in the history of many drugs you’ve heard about– I mean, learned about adverse events only after the drug’s been licensed and introduced into the population. So I think that risk is always there and the population needs to understand that and feel confident that mechanisms are being put in place to study some of those things.

        Paul. This quote is not by any means a ‘smoking gun’ as implied. The Dr qualifies what she says by “in many countries” that is because monitoring probably does not take place in some developing countries for a variety of reasons. What she then concludes is quite correct that it can then lead to loss of confidence. I would like you to get me one publication that proves that the risks of vaccines outweigh the advantages, that is the acid test not this tittle tattle of NaturalNews and fake news sensationalist websites.

        • #49860 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ SA January 19, 2020 at 11:34
          Really, SA can’t you do better than that? Her own contradictory words you claim are mere ‘tittle-tattle’?

          ‘..In a public service announcement produced by the W.H.O., she claims “Vaccines are very safe” and that vaccines can “prevent disease without risks.” But in a leaked W.H.O. vaccine summit video that has now gone public, she frets about vaccine safety, saying, “we really don’t have very good safety monitoring systems” and, “[we] learned about adverse events only after the drug’s been licensed and introduced into the population. So I think that risk is always there…”
          Do you not comprehend the difference between ‘..“Vaccines are very safe”.. and ‘..vaccines can “prevent disease without risks.”, stated in public, and “we really don’t have very good safety monitoring systems” and ‘“[we] learned about adverse events only after the drug’s been licensed and introduced into the population. So I think that risk is always there…” stated in a private gathering? It really wouldn’t matter if I got the link through Mein Kampf or Das Kapital, unless you are suggesting the videos are faked, the W.H.O. Chief Scientist contradicts herself.
          You should know how compromised these ‘International’ bodies are by now, with the World Bank, IMF, U.N. ‘Peace-Keeping Forces’ child abuse and people trafficking, O.P.C.W. and I.C.C. being intimidated.

          • #49868 Reply
            SA
            Guest

            Paul
            You do not seem to have the analytical power to distinguish between what was said and what the interpretation of what your fake site says is said. I shall leave that to you to figure out, but if you really are seeking the truth, then please read again the quote that I extracted and try to understand its real meaning, What she is saying is that in specific incidents in some countries the monitoring is poor and therefore it is sometimes not possible to give robust answers because the data has not been corrected properly and this leads to misinterpretations and taking things out of context by some. Nowhere have I mentioned tittle tattle.
            Over and out on this one I am afraid, Keep off the Corona virus.

            • #49889 Reply
              Paul Barbara
              Guest

              @ SA January 23, 2020 at 15:34
              ‘..Nowhere have I mentioned tittle tattle…’
              Then what is the following, from your comment @ January 19, 2020 at 11:34, Scotch Mist?
              ‘…that is the acid test not this tittle tattle of NaturalNews and fake news sensationalist websites…’

    • #49895 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      How things are done in the States: ‘Donald Rumsfeld and the Strange History of Aspartame’:
      https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-rumsfeld-and-the-s_b_805581?guccounter=1
      With this attitude to health or safety testing, across the board, how on earth can anyone in their right minds believe a word the ‘regulatory’ agencies say?
      They mirror the US and UK government’s contempt for human life, evident in their never-ending wars of choice around the globe. We saw how they pulled out all the stops to prevent a decent man, Jeremy Corbyn, from taking up his rightful place as Prime Minister of the UK.
      The ‘Evildoers’ are very well entrenched in power. And too many people who should know better still wear their rose-tinted glasses, and believe what the MSM and the PTB tell them, be it the ‘safety’ of medicines and vaccinations or of GM foods or of 5G, or that Assad used chemical weapons against ‘his own people’, or anyone else for that matter.
      I may seem to be digressing, but all these evil events, technologies and lies are part of the seamless garment of governance.

      • #49896 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        And it is not just tinfoil hat-sporting loony tunes like me who think like this:
        ‘Tulsi Gabbard LIVE – Tulsi Town Hall – Moultonborough, NH’:

        Tulsi Gabbard LIVE – Tulsi Town Hall – Moultonborough, NH

        Tulsi Gabbard LIVE – Tulsi Town Hall – Moultonborough, NHStand with Tulsi – Donate here: https://tulsi.to/donate-nowJoin Tulsi Gabbard in Moultonborough, NH at the Moultonborough Function Hall. Tune in to our livestream.#TulsiGabbard #TULSI2020 #Tulsi

        Publiée par Tulsi Gabbard sur Samedi 25 janvier 2020

        • #50084 Reply
          Paul Barbara
          Guest

          @ Paul Barbara January 25, 2020 at 23:27
          The Tulsi video is now available at:

    • #49901 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Hoax
      Interestingly Donald Trump appears to be the only major candidate for the 2020 election who believes in the anti vaccine hoax.

    • #49902 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Ten hour siege, a SWAT team… and a TANK: How police dealt with mother who refused to give her child medication’:
      https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1377178/SWAT-teams-10-hour-siege-mother-Maryanne-Godboldo-Detroit.html
      This is an indication to what depths the US has sunk; how long before we slavishly follow?
      Happily, and against the odds, the mother won through, though whether the vaccine-triggered problems persist I don’t know:
      ‘Mother Faces Down Swat Team & Tank For Refusing to Drug Daughter’:

      Talk about ‘Land of the free’! The U.S. has more per capita people in prisons than anywhere else on earth: https://www.statista.com/statistics/262961/countries-with-the-most-prisoners/

    • #49983 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘BATS, GENE EDITING AND BIOWEAPONS: RECENT DARPA EXPERIMENTS RAISE CONCERNS AMID CORONAVIRUS OUTBREAK’:

      Bats, Gene Editing and Bioweapons: Recent DARPA Experiments Raise Concerns Amid Coronavirus Outbreak


      Put DARPA and pharmaceutical companies together, stir well, and we have a man-made Pandemic replete with ultra-dangerous never-tested gene vaccines.
      Create the problem, supply the ‘solution’. Like Al Capone and the Kray Brothers’ protection rackets.
      And of course, in the case of China and the Coronavirus, blame the victims.

    • #50045 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Plot thickens around the China Coronavirus outbreak:
      ‘New evidence emerges: Coronavirus “bioweapon” might have been a Chinese vaccine experiment gone wrong… genes contain “pShuttle-SN” sequences, proving laboratory origin’:
      https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-02-coronavirus-bioweapon-chinese-vaccine-experiment-gone-wrong-pshuttle-sn-gene-sequence.html
      Yet another whistleblowing scientist whose career was crushed because she told truth to power, Dr. Judy Mikovits (see video on link).

    • #50082 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      NationalAddictionNews.com:
      Study “Confirms That The Full Degree Of Harm Of Antidepressants Is Not Reported”
      ‘…This corporate domination is exactly why, in 2014, the current Editor-in-Chief of The Lancet stated that “the case against science is straightforward: much of the scientific literature, perhaps half, may simply be untrue……”

    • #50085 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Francis Boyle: Wuhan Coronavirus is an Offensive Biological Warfare Weapon’:

      Whilst it may have leaked from the Wuhan lab, if we ask ‘Cui bono’ perhaps another player wanted it to appear that way…

    • #50187 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Are We Ready for Digital Pills to Affect Our Brains?’:
      https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/am-i-my-genes/201906/are-we-ready-digital-pills-affect-our-brains#_=_
      Hey, stop worrying! We can trust ‘Big Brother’/’Uncle Samuel’, can’t we?
      We just KNOW that the PTB have our best interests at heart, don’t we?

    • #50204 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      A slight digression from vaccines, but all clearly linked to the PTB’s war against ‘We The People’:
      ‘Genetically Modified Seeds: Conceived as a Weapon’:
      Genetically Modified Seeds: Conceived as a Weapon
      ‘The Eco-Politics of Spermicidal, Genetically Engineered Corn’:
      https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php…
      Wakey, wakey, Sheeple!
      ‘GM corn set to stop man spreading his seed’:
      https://www.theguardian.com/science/2001/sep/09/gm.food
      It may seem absolutely crazy to believe that the PTB are intent on Human Culling, but in a spiritual sense it makes perfect sense. And the ‘Perpetual War’ concept, pushed by the West and NATO (and foreseen by George Orwell in ‘1984’) should be a further wake-up call to those who harbour the illusion that the PTB care a fig for the masses (that’s you and me).

    • #50409 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Never Trump Fundamentalist Calls for Anti-Forced Vaccination Activists to be Sent to Camps’:

      Never Trump Fundamentalist Calls for Anti-Forced Vaccination Activists to be Sent to Camps


      China brought into law a Mandatory Vaccination Law last year.
      Bill Gates planned RFID chips to be included in vaccine shots.
      I don’t know about going to hell in a handcart, more like in a toboggan.

    • #50476 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘COURT RULING CONFIRMS MERCK’S GARDASIL HPV VACCINE KILLS PEOPLE – DID ANYONE EVEN NOTICE?’:

      Court Ruling Confirms Merck’s Gardasil HPV Vaccine Kills People – Did Anyone Even Notice?


      ‘….The final ruling has been confirmed by the Department of Health and Human Services: Merck’s Gardasil vaccine causes autoimmune problems that cause sudden debilitation and/or death. This ruling supports claims that the vaccine is just too dangerous to risk, and to date we know of at least 271 young women who’ve died after getting the vaccine, and over 57,520 reports of adverse reactions to the vaccine….’

    • #50495 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Get a load of this!: ‘Do NOT Have the Coronavirus Vaccine with Del Bigtree’:

      Especially frightening from 22.24 on.

      • #50503 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        I should have added it is unfortunate Del Bigtree does not explain what credibility the Chinese guy has at the end of his video, it is just tagged on. But Del’s exposure of the dangers of the SARS vaccine are frightening enough in themselves.

    • #50532 Reply
      Sarah
      Guest

      I agree with your point on drugs – in fact, that also applies to antidepressants – one should be extremely careful with such, especially when now it’s not hard to find a rehab. Some useful info on the topic here: https://addictionresource.com/drugs/antidepressants/ I think it’s extremely important to apply in time.

    • #50685 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Medical groups get kickbacks for pushing vaccines’:

      Doctor loses job for telling the truth.

    • #50686 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Who? Context? Balanced?

      • #50736 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ SA March 8, 2020 at 09:06, 09.20b and 09.35
        Sorry, I only have the info in the video.

    • #50688 Reply
      SA
      Guest
    • #50689 Reply
      SA
      Guest
    • #50690 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      The rise of anti-vaccination movements in parts of the Western world poses a dire threat to people’s health and the collective herd immunity. People of all ages have fallen victim to recent outbreaks of measles, one of the most notable “eliminated” diseases that made a comeback as a direct consequence of not reaching the immunization threshold for MMR vaccines. These outbreaks not only put a strain on national healthcare systems but also cause fatal casualties. Therefore, it is of the utmost importance that all stakeholders in the medical world – physicians, researchers, educators, and governments – unite to curb the influence of the anti-vaccination movement targeting parents. Research has shown that even parents favorable to vaccination can be confused by the ongoing debate, leading them to question their choices. Many parents lack basic knowledge of how vaccines work, as well as access to accurate information explaining the importance of the process. Furthermore, those with the greatest need for knowledge about vaccination seem most vulnerable to this information. Further, we must effectively combat the wrongful demonization of vaccinations through social media and news media platforms. A qualitative study that explored how parents respond to competing media messages about vaccine safety concluded that personal experiences, value systems, and level of trust in health professionals are essential to parental decision making about immunization. Therefore, to combat the anti-vaccination movement, there must be a strong emphasis on helping parents develop trust in health professionals and relevant authorities, educating them on the facts and figures, debunking the myths peddled by the anti-vaccination movements, and even introducing legislation that promotes vaccination, if not mandating it.

      Source: The Anti-vaccination Movement: A Regression in Modern Medicine, by Azhar Hussain, Syed Ali, Madiha Ahmed, and Sheharyar Hussain – Cureus 10(7), Jul, 2018.

    • #50733 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Aluminum Linked to Alzheimer’s Disease? 7 Pieces of Evidence’:
      https://universityhealthnews.com/daily/memory/aluminum-linked-to-alzheimers-disease/
      ‘The Evidence Linking Aluminum and Alzheimer’s Disease
      A team of neuroscientists led by Dr. Walter Lukiw, PhD, Professor of Neurology, Neuroscience and Ophthalmology at Louisiana State University, has been studying the potential contribution of aluminum to the onset, development and progression of Alzheimer’s disease for about 30 years. Dr. Lukiw and his fellow researchers recently summarized the research linking aluminum and Alzheimer’s disease in a peer-reviewed article published in Frontiers in Aging Neuroscience.[1]

      “Aluminum’s contribution to Alzheimer’s disease is based upon at least seven independently derived observations,” the researchers stated.[2] Briefly, those seven pieces of evidence are:

      Aluminum strongly promotes beta-amyloid plaques in the brain at levels corresponding to those currently found in humans.
      Aluminum promotes inflammation in the brain by increasing the pro-inflammatory molecule known as nuclear factor kappa beta (NF-kB), a prominent feature in the brains of people with Alzheimer’s disease.
      Out of the many thousands of brain gene messenger RNA molecules (molecules that convey genetic information from DNA to cause gene expression), aluminum increases the same ones that are increased in Alzheimer’s disease.
      Adding aluminum to the diets of animals with Alzheimer’s disease causes additional brain changes associated with Alzheimer’s disease such oxidative stress, programmed cell death, and deficits in gene expression.
      Aluminum also causes the same types of cellular energy deficits that are associated with Alzheimer’s disease, such as impaired signaling involving ATP and energy utilization.
      A very significant number of studies link the amount of aluminum in drinking water to the incidence of Alzheimer’s disease. (Worldwide, aluminum is added to drinking water as a clarification or “finishing” agent.)
      Out of all the Alzheimer’s disease drug treatments tried to date, chelation using an aluminum chelator has been shown to be one of the most effective therapeutic strategies yet….’
      Sure, there are sites and ‘experts’ that say the links of aluminium and Alzheimers are not proven – choose your experts. I’ll try to take the ‘Precautionary Principal’.

    • #50735 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Scientists Resume Efforts To Create Deadly Flu Virus, With US Government’s Blessing’:

      “Scientists Resume Efforts To Create Deadly Flu Virus, With US Government’s Blessing”


      ‘…Governments around the world (primarily the US, Israel, Russia and China) have spent over $100 BILLION studying how to weaponize diseases .
      Every day THOUSANDS of alleged health science scientists and their support staff go to work every day to develop new bio-weapons.
      This March 2019 Forbes article is about just ONE of these perverse research projects. There are hundreds more we’ve never heard about…’

    • #50769 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Just a reminder of the importance of vaccines. Certain killer diseases have become a thing of the past because of vaccinations. Here is a list of epidemics.

    • #51145 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘They WANT it to spread: Kaiser Permanente threatens to FIRE nurses for wearing N95 masks while treating coronavirus patients’:
      https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-03-25-kaiser-permanente-theatens-to-fire-nurses-for-wearing-n95-masks-coronavirus.html
      Not unlike some First Responders on 9/11 cleanup being ordered not to wear protective breathing masks, so as not to frighten Wall Street workers off.
      But Big Pharma have our health at heart! Sure, tell that to the Marines (or the nurses).

    • #51146 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Big pharma is out to make big money
      Big pharma to make money has to be seen to be successful and useful in fulfilling most aims of drugs (a biological way of looking at this is that successful parasites don’t kill or weaken their hosts and in fact some symbiotic organisms benefit the host and themselves as well)
      Big pharma sometimes get things wrong
      Big pharma like any big corporations like to create monopolies
      Big pharma lobby governments and put placemen on government boards for their purposes
      Big pharma are part of big capitalism
      Many vaccines save lives and have rendered some diseases like small pox extinct and others like measles much less of a problem.

      Paul
      I would like you to tell me if you agree or disagree with any of these statements or indeed if you have a list of your own you want to add to these statements.

      • #51263 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ SA March 26, 2020 at 11:08
        You asked me to answer what I greed with in your list, so I’ll try:
        ‘Big pharma is out to make big money
        Agree
        Big pharma to make money has to be seen to be successful and useful in fulfilling most aims of drugs (a biological way of looking at this is that successful parasites don’t kill or weaken their hosts and in fact some symbiotic organisms benefit the host and themselves as well)
        Disagree – look at their abysmal results with cancer, yet they induce the ‘Authorities’ to mercilessly hound doctors and other health practitioners who use ‘unauthorised’ (but extremely effective) remedies like Gc-MAF. Also they bribe doctors to prescribe or vaccinate with their products. Profuse prescibers can make a great deal of money, I believe some get $hundreds of thousands a year. Worth, to many, turning a blind eye to whether they do any good or not, as long as they don’t kill or do too much harm that is traceable to their prescriptions.
        Big pharma sometimes get things wrong
        Sure, but they should worry. They generally get off with a light (in respect of their massive profits) fine, if their top lawyers can’t get them off (and they generally spin the cases out for donkeys years, often till many victims are dead and buried).
        Big pharma like any big corporations like to create monopolies
        Agreed
        Big pharma lobby governments and put placemen on government boards for their purposes
        Agreed
        Big pharma are part of big capitalism
        <cem>Agreed
        Many vaccines save lives and have rendered some diseases like small pox extinct and others like measles much less of a problem.
        <cem>Here it gets trickier – there are many doctors and medics who question just how effective they really were, given that other factors such as hygiene and natural immunity were at work at the same time. The Big Pharma obviously diligently attempt to deny any links with problems, such as autism, and the government (under their political donation thumbs) back them to the hilt.
        I am obviously convinced that vaccines have been used for immoral purposes, claiming to be for one thing, but with a hidden (often birth control) agenda, as well as the well-attested use of poisonous adjuvants like mercury and aluminium, as well as some using various animal sourced products.<cem>

        And just as an example I came across recently (from a comment by Tatyana):
        https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/18/italians-found-way-3-d-print-key-ventilator-piece-1-help-battle-coronavirus-so?
        Many vaccines save lives and have rendered some diseases like small pox extinct and others like measles much less of a problem.
        Another one from the ‘normal suspects’:
        ‘Taxpayers Paid Millions to Design a Low-Cost Ventilator for a Pandemic. Instead, the Company Is Selling Versions of It Overseas.’:
        http://www.yourdestinationnow.com/2020/03/taxpayers-paid-millions-to-design-low.html
        And Jared Kushner is ‘making a deal’ with the company…

        Just for interest, I believe that the Covid – 19 was created in the States, and deliberately spread through Wuhan by the US Military Games contingent. I see that as the balance of probabilities, but I’m not certain.

    • #51592 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Coronavirus Provides Dictators and Oligarchs with a Dream Come True’:

      Coronavirus Provides Dictators and Oligarchs with a Dream Come True


      They’ll come up with a vaccine, all right. Whether it does more harm than good, the Corporations don’t care – they’ll get their dosh, cartloads of it, and will have no liabilities if/when the vaccine program goes pear-shaped.
      And all those folk who give the old knee-jerk reaction, ‘CT’, take a look at the synchronicity of these two events below:
      ‘On October 18, 2019, a fictional table top pandemic exercise “Event 201” was convened in New York City by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, with the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security, and the World Economic Forum. The exercise was attended by a group of 15 representatives from leading corporate, government and global institutions, including the US Centers for Disease Control. [See list of participants and an excellent summary of the five hour exercise by Mary Holland, legal scholar, General Counsel and Vice Chair of the Children’s Health Defense]
      This simulated exercise exposed the fault lines and unpreparedness; the simulated exercise materialized in the actual events that followed two months later, beginning in China. In the simulated exercise, the pandemic slows down after 18 months, by which time 65 million people are projected to have died. The pandemic was projected to end only after an effective vaccine had been brought to market.
      “The pandemic will continue at some rate until there is an effective vaccine or until 80-90 % of the global population has been exposed. From that point on, it is likely to be an endemic childhood disease.” [View an hour of “Highlights” from the exercise]
      On November 15, 2019, before the coronavirus emerged, the CDC posted a job offer for an advisor for a US Quarantine Program

      ‘The 2019 Military World Games, officially known as the 7th CISM Military World Games and commonly known as Wuhan 2019, was held from October 18–27, 2019 in Wuhan, Hubei, China.Wikipedia’.

      And then check this out:
      ‘Exclusive:US Army Brought COVID-19 to China with Fake ‘Military Games’ Team(March 12 story)’:
      https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/04/09/china-us-brought-covid19-to-china-during-army-games-hid-disease-in-us-as-influenza/#comment-770211

      Now I can’t say I know whether that is true, but it sure as heck makes a whole bunch of sense to me. Especially combined with the US Military Contingent’s abysmal performance (so bad they were nicknamed ‘Soy Sauce Soldiers’ by the Chinese.

      ‘RT/Moscow: The US army might have brought the novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) to China’s Wuhan, the city where the virus was first detected in the country, Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesman Zhao Lijian said on Thursday.
      “When did patient zero begin in US? How many people are infected? What are the names of the hospitals? It might be US army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan. Be transparent! Make public your data! US owe us an explanation!” Zhao tweeted…’

      Breaking/Exclusive: US Brought COVID19 to China with Fake Army Team for Military Games, Evidence Mounting – Veterans Today

      The Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesman Zhao Lijian may have just put it in the form of a question, but the Chinese have extremely competent intelligence agencies, and may well have proof which they are choosing to not make public (If it became public, the people, and the Eastern concept of ‘Losing Face’, could make war inevitable).

    • #51601 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Bill Gates: Mass Gatherings May Never Come Back Unless You’re Vaccinated’:

      Bill Gates: Mass Gatherings May Never Come Back Unless You’re Vaccinated


      Floating a balloon? Not likely, as it has basically been floated many times before.

    • #51758 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Fast-track (virtually mandatory) Covid – 19 vaxx?
      ‘Here’s why Bill Gates wants indemnity… Are you willing to take the risk?’:
      https://childrenshealthdefense.org/…/heres-why-bill-gates…/…
      ‘..Why are the world’s top vaccine promoters, like Paul Offit and Peter Hotez, frantically warning us about the unique and frightening dangers inherent in developing a coronavirus vaccine?..’
      You know what you can do with your vaxx, Billy-Boy!

    • #52003 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Bill Gates, No more Public gathering until EVERYONE Gets the Vaccines’:

      Neat trick, eh? Kinda like 9/11, and the way ‘Conspiracy Theorists’ have said things are going to go: ‘Understanding the Hegelian Dialectic’: Problem – Reaction – Solution
      https://www.jeremiahproject.com/new-world-order/understanding-hegelian-dialectic/
      Al Capone understood it, the Cray Brothers understood it, and the Shadow Government and their puppets understand it.
      Collect relatively harmless or very dangerous virus’s/diseases, work on them in labs to weaponise them (make them more dangerous/easier to spread); find a ‘vaccine’ which is problematic in itself (this step may be left till after it has been spread around – bit dodgy, that – it might bite the PTB and their puppets, so I suspect they have a vaccine already, but it won’t be the same as the one the general public get) and mandate universal vaccination or prison/fines/children ‘taken into care’/no access to transport/shops/work/public spaces.
      And, obviously, no mass demonstrations (or even small demonstrations).
      When the ‘weaponised’ virus/whatever is released, it’s best to release it in a perceived enemy’s territory, both to hit them first and to be able to ‘(falsely) blame them for the outbreak (as in Wuhan, and I suspect in previous ‘Foreign’ virus/disease ‘outbreaks’).

    • #52507 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Yet more evil shenanigans from the CDC:
      ‘UNREAL: Faulty Coronavirus Tests Sent to States by CDC Were Tainted with Coronavirus’:

      UNREAL: Faulty Coronavirus Tests Sent to States by CDC Were Tainted with Coronavirus


      ‘Accidentally’ sending out Coronavirus test kits contaminated with Coronavirus! Well, it would increase the numbers, even if it didn’t actually infect anyone.
      The CDC, like so many other US agencies, are literally evil, knowingly spreading contaminated tests and vaccines, as well as false information and recommendations (and possibly mandates).

    • #52530 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘The Seven-Step Path from Pandemic to Totalitarianism’:

      The Seven-Step Path from Pandemic to Totalitarianism

      The following comment, which appears on the above link, is extremely important. I have read or seen on video the info about the PCR test being no test at all for Covid 19, and that the originator never intended for it to be a test for viral infection. Yet this is the ‘test’ the PTB are pushing, to show just how many of us are or have been ‘infected’,when it shows no such thing.
      ‘SparkyMcBiff
      The fact is that there is NO test that is specific for COVID19. In fact the man who won a Nobel Prize for developing the PCR technique, which is presently being used for testing for COVID19 says that it was NEVER MEANT to be used for any diagnostic test. The test is just identifying segments of RNA that can com from any corona virus, of which there are dozens and are very common. (ie. the common cold). We are being played people.

      120ReplyApr 25, 2020 11:54 AM’

    • #52537 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Sadly OffGuardian has turned into a website with a single issue agenda and not an open view in the pandemic. Sadly I don’t read its rantings anymore.

    • #52549 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      [ Mod: From the moderation rules for commenters:

      Contribute
      Contributions which are primarily just a link to somewhere else will be deleted. You can post links, but give us the benefit of your thoughts upon them.

      Kindly also avoid posting bare URLs, to facilitate faster page loading.

      Regards. ]

      ‘THE REAL HOAX: REPORTER CAUGHT ON TAPE’:

      Gee, the MSM spreading the truth (but only by accident).

    • #52554 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA April 26, 2020 at 02:59l
      The important point was the comment – do you disagree with the comment?
      Do you see how, if true, this whole issue is being manipulated?

    • #52574 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      How is this authenticated? Is there a reliable second source. There is a lot of misinformation out there and I am not really prepared to examine and waste time authenticating them.

      • #52615 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ SA April 26, 2020 at 13:30
        ‘Kary Mullis dies at age 74’ (Chemical & Engineering News).
        ‘…Kary B. Mullis, Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, died Aug. 7 of pneumonia at the age of 74. He won the 1993 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his invention of the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) method for copying and amplifying DNA. Mullis invented the PCR method in 1983 as a chemist at Cetus Corporation.
        The original version of PCR that Mullis developed uses repeated cycles of elevated temperatures to separate DNA strands, which are then copied by a heat-stable DNA polymerase. Repeating the cycle many times leads to an exponential increase in the quantity of DNA. In this way, even traces of DNA can be amplified into amounts that can be easily sequenced or quantified….’
        ‘…died Aug. 7 (2019) of pneumonia at the age of 74…’
        How convenient for the PTB.Admittedly, 74 is a fair age, but to die, and of pneumonia (I would bet it was Covid 19 – I am aware it didn’t ‘officially’ occur till December).
        I haven’t yet come up with a direct quote from him re that the PCR should not be used for diagnosis, but have come across the allegation from so many sources I’m pretty sure it is genuine. Obviously, neither I nor any one else in this world can ask him now. I’ll keep looking, but perhaps the ‘censoring algorithms’ have been at work.

        Here is an article by someone who knew the scientist who invented the PCR test, with quite a lot of useful info:
        ‘The Corona Simulation Machine: Why the Inventor of The “Corona Test” Would Have Warned Us Not To Use It To Detect A Virus’ by Celia Farber.

        ‘…Kary Mullis was a scientist. He never spoke like a globalist, and said once, memorably, when accused of making statements about HIV that could endanger lives: “I’m a scientist. I’m not a lifeguard.” That’s a very important line in the sand. Somebody who goes around claiming they are “saving lives,” is a very dangerous animal, and you should run in the opposite direction when you encounter them. Their weapon is fear, and their favorite word is “could.” They entrap you with a form of bio-debt, creating simulations of every imaginable thing that “could” happen, yet hasn’t. Bill Gates has been waiting a long time for a virus with this much, as he put it, “pandemic potential.” But Gates has a problem, and it’s called PCR…’
        ‘..I asked Dr. Rasnick what advice he has for people who want to be tested for COVID-19.
        “Don’t do it, I say, when people ask me,” he replies. “No healthy person should be tested. It means nothing but it can destroy your life, make you absolutely miserable.”
        One of the countless head-spinning mysteries of this whole Corona Situation has been the advent of famous people, from Tom Hanks and his wife, to Sophie Trudeau, to Prince Charles (AND BoJo!) announcing they had “tested positive” for COVID-19 and were self-quarantining. In all these famous-powerful people cases, the symptoms were either non-existent or mild. Why, one wondered, did they make such hay about it? The British Royals, especially, seemed to contradict their ethos of secrecy in this case…’

        In other words, their ‘PCR Teast’ seems to be a ‘pile of pants’; ‘“When I use a test,’ Gates and Fauchi said in rather scornful tones, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’ (quoting Humpty Dumpty).

        “The first thing to know is that the test is not binary,” he said. “In fact, I don’t think there are any tests for infectious disease that are positive or negative.” David Crowe.
        Results depend on how many times you replicate the sample in the PCR test – on that depends the result – positive, indeterminate or negative. Again, a ‘pile of pants’.
        They can make it go either way – loads of positives, or not.
        They control the strings to detain us all indefinitely in our homes, possibly try to mandate compulsory vaccines (that should please you!), restrictions on travel, transport, and anything else they fancy restricting us on, possibly demonstrations. Possibly do away with that awfully dangerous voting system of going to a voting station, and replacing it with 100% postal or online voting?

    • #52616 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Oh dear.
      I am not sure that ‘a pile of pants’ is a commonly used expression amongst scientists.
      Next.

    • #52639 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA April 27, 2020 at 16:57
      No, not good enough; that was my comment, and though it isn’t the sort of expression I would use, I was mirroring it’s use by a UK govt. agency, re a case for asylum.
      So, now that has been cleared up, do you have no other comment, on an article by a friend of the inventor of the PCR test, who conveniently ‘died of pneumonia’ (I suspect infected with Covid 19 – they do love rubbing people’s noses in what they can do with impunity – like infecting Jack Ruby with the very same extremely virulent cancer they had produced to kill Castro, of which plot Ruby was aware of) in 2019?
      Please don’t go off on a tangent to attack my comments – comment on the article.

    • #52640 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      You gave no links. I need to read the original to make a comment. But it seems the world is a dangerous place where people get bumped off willy nilly.

    • #52641 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Mullis denies AIDS is caused by a virus, and denied climate change and says PCR not useful for diagnosing viruses. Just because he discovered the PCR Does not mean that everything he then says is correct especially when it goes against science. You see some people, especially in the USA usually evangelicals, don’t believe in Darwin and are creationists. Science is not an opinion you can just agree with or not as it suits.

    • #52642 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      And Paul
      Please don’t ask me to comment on articles in OffGuardian. They now have a one track minded agenda, which may appeal to you but does nothing for me. I have stopped reading OG.

    • #52643 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Cuomo discovers novel way to spread Covid 19 deaths:
      ‘Coronavirus patients admitted to Queens nursing home — with body bags’ (Ney York Post).
      ‘Ve haf vays of increasing the death count statistics’ – murderous scumbag.
      I hope some of the victims relatives sue the ba^tard.
      Life is very cheap in the ‘Land of the Free’.

    • #52661 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘The Truth About Fauci Featuring Dr. Judy Mikovits’ (YouTube)
      ‘RFK, Jr.: Judy Mikovits is among her generation’s most accomplished scientists.She joined NIH in 1980 as a Postdoctoral Scholar in Molecular Virology at the National Cancer Institute. Dr. Mikovits began a 20-year collaboration with Frank Ruscetti, a pioneer in the field of human retro virology. She helped Dr Russetti isolate the HIV virus + link it to #AIDS in 1983. Her NIH boss Anthony Fauci delayed publication of that critical paper for 6 months to let his protégé Robert Gallo replicate, publish and claim credit. The delay in mass HIV testing let AIDS further spread around the globe + helped Fauci win promotion to director NIAID.
      In 2006, Dr Mikovits became director of Whittemore Peterson Institute for Neuro-Immune Disease + collaborated with Dr Ruscetti searching for the cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which suddenly became epidemic in the 1980s. The male dominated medical community dismissed CFS as psychosomatic “yuppie flu” caused when fragile females cracked in corporate jobs.
      Dr. Mikovits discovered that 67% of affected women carried a virus—called Xenotropic Murine Leukemia related Virus—that appeared in healthy women only 4% of the time.
      XMRV is also associated with prostate, breast, ovarian cancers, leukemia, and multiple myeloma. Many women with XMRV bore children with autism.
      In 2009, Drs. Mikovits and Ruscetti published their explosive findings in the journal Science. But the question remained: How was XMRV getting into people?
      Other researchers linked the first CFS outbreak to a polio vaccine given to doctors and nurses that resulted in the “1934 Los Angeles County Hospital Epidemic.” That vaccine was cultivated on pulverized mouse brains. Retroviruses from dead animals can survive in cell lines and permanently contaminate vaccines.
      Dr Mikovits’ studies suggested that the XMRV Virus was present in the MMR, Polio + Encephalitis vaccines given to American children + soldiers.
      Dr Fauci ordered Mikovits to keep her mouth shut. When she refused, he illegally confiscated her work books and hard drives, drove her from government work + blackballed her from receiving NIH grants ending her science career. XMRV remains in American vaccines.’

      Now Dr. Faust (sorry, Fauci) & Gates, along with their puppet Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, are the main pushers of the ‘need’ for a vaccine (which they and their cronies have every intention of producing, and they can rely on other PTB puppets in governments around the world probably making it mandatory or extremely limiting not to have.
      Ah, well, when it comes to pass, you can always say it was a lucky guess on our (I’m certainly not the only one) parts. Along with WWIII, also on the cards from the Banksters, Corporatists and ‘Secret Societies’ that brought you all the other abominations, wars and financial rip-offs.

    • #52671 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      From Wikipedia page of Judi Mikovits
      “6Mikovits is an anti-vaccination activist and has spoken at a number of anti-vaccination events.[28][29][2][3] She has falsely claimed that retroviruses have contaminated 30% of vaccines.[1]

      Mikovits’s has gained attention on social media for promoting conspiracy theories about the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic. She does not believe that a vaccine is needed to prevent COVID-19[2] and claims that the coronavirus was “caused by a bad strain of flu shot that was circulating between 2013 and 2015”.[30]”

    • #52672 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Dr. Mikovits discovered that 67% of affected women carried a virus—called Xenotropic Murine Leukemia related Virus—that appeared in healthy women only 4% of the time.
      XMRV is also associated with prostate, breast, ovarian cancers, leukemia, and multiple myeloma. Many women with XMRV bore children with autism.
      In 2009, Drs. Mikovits and Ruscetti published their explosive findings in the journal Science. But the question remained: How was XMRV getting into people?

      What you don’t tell us Paul, is that this paper was later withdrawn because it was found that the virus was a contaminant.
      Now you either didn’t know this, or you did but chose to ignore. Which one is it, because if it is the first I would just say next time please check your facts. If it is the second, then the mods need to know.

    • #52681 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      ‘Ex-Russian Intel Officer Exposes Coronavirus Depopulation Agenda’ (The Freedom Articles’.
      ‘…They think there’s too many of us ordinary people in the world. There should be around 100 million of their kind and a maximum of 1 billion people on Earth to serve them. Then they’ll be living in abundance here on Earth. Because, us the people, the earthlings – there’s too many of us for the behind-the-scenes world powers.
      This is why the coronavirus and the financial crisis that has emerged almost immediately – they’re inextricably tied to one another. The aim is to stop people’s movement around the world, to curtail political freedoms…’
      The guy being interviewed, Vladimir Vasilievich, was the leading researcher for the Centre for Defence and Strategic Studies of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, so his conclusions should not be dismissed out of hand.
      I believe the idea of the PTB planning a major culling of the world’s population is just too horrifying for many to accept, but this guy can hardly be caricatured as a tin-foil hatter.
      And he accepts the idea the Covid 19 was made in a lab, and deliberately spread in Wuhan.


      [ Mod: Paul, your advocacy of conspiracy theories is well known, and welcome as an alternative voice, but this blog should not serve as a platform for deceptive propaganda.

      We await a convincing response from you. ]

    • #52685 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      Diversion will not do. Was the Science article alleging the virus contamination theory withdrawn or not? If you were unaware that it was do you now concede that it has been and that you did not know? If you persist on promoting such blatant one sided anti vaccine propaganda without retraction and then divert by posting another conspiracy theory then it seems to me that you are purely using this forum to disseminate disinformation. It would be up to you to convince that this is not the case. Mods may or may not want to decide whether to let this be a blatant pro antivaxxers forum irrespective of science and facts.

    • #52760 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA April 29, 2020 at 04:08
      Kindly inform me which article you are referring to, and evidence of it being withdrawn (and by whom, and if possible on what grounds).
      In the interim, here is information put before one of the two Houses who make up Italy’s Parliament, the Chamber of Deputies, by a doctor (I am trying to get more info about this doctor). The original is in the form of a video, which is in Italian, so I have included another video, a news video from the UK Column, which has the text in English (and where I obtained the the information): ‘UK Column News’ – 27th April 2020′; go to news video from 40:35 – 51:09.

      Also of note: ‘Denmark rushes through emergency coronavirus law’: The Local DK
      ‘…As well as enforcing quarantine measures, the law also allows the authorities to force people to be vaccinated, even though there is currently no vaccination for the virus.
      It also empowers them to prohibit access to public institutions, supermarkets and shops, public and private nursing homes and hospitals, and also to impose restrictions on access to public transport.
      Initially, the government wanted to the law to give the police the right to enter private homes without a court order if there is a suspicion of coronavirus infection. But this was dropped after opposition from parties in the parliament…’

      So the PTB want to not only make shedloads of money on vaccines, but make their poisonous crap mandatory, at least in Denmark (vaccines are already mandatory in China).

    • #52763 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA April 29, 2020 at 04:08
      In my reply above, I included a video on the UK Column. I have been trying to get more information (not least the Dr.’s name, as the video below gives an alternative spelling, and I can find nothing about her online) but I have no doubt whatsoever the video is genuine.
      It is also dubbed in English, unlike the original one.
      The relevant part is between 40:35 – 51.09. According to info below the video, it was a Press Conference in the House of Deputies, and is extremely informative in the PTB’s lack of providing answers to legitimate and extremely important questions. The doctor very reasonably explains that the reason the information was published without peer review is because that would have taken about two years, and this information was vital for parents re getting their children vaccinated – had they waited, millions of children may have been vaccinated with dangerous vaccines. And their questions to the government and others remain unanswered.
      ‘VaccineGate English’ + YouTube
      I trust that throws a spanner in your incessant ‘conspiracy theories’ put-down.
      It is hard to provide strong evidence, because of the powerful forces trying to stifle the truth, and demonising alternative voices. Not a new phenomenon; but eventually the truth gets out – the earth really does go round the sun, and not vice versa. And that was before the MSM!
      I am still trying to get more info, like what organisation the Dr. belongs to, and a written translation of the video contents.
      Likely as not, the Italian MSM ignored the Press Conference, or at least wouldn’t have given the real meat of the argument, as they did here with Assange, Salmond and everything else.

    • #52767 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      You miss the point . Dr Mikovits published a paper in science which alleges that a virus called XMRV is responsible for MI and a variety of human cancers and has been spread by vaccines. I posted above that this publication was later withdrawn because the data was not accurate and the virus was a contaminant and not found in origin human samples. I also posted an extract from Dr Mikovits’ Wikipedia page saying that she is a prominent activist anti vaxxer. These are the points I raised and asked you to answer. Your response was to send in more conspiracy theories for me to research and debunk. I refuse to do your work for you and have asked you to find out for yourself what happened subsequently to Dr Mikovits’ Science publication, something I am sure you are capable of doing, so that in future you could substantiate your claims rather than to throw more flak my way. Unless you do so, and answer the mods case above, I feel I can no longer indulge in chasing your constant trail of Conspiracy Theories that this Forum has become.

    • #52769 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA May 1, 2020 at 07:24
      ‘…I also posted an extract from Dr Mikovits’ Wikipedia page saying that she is a prominent activist anti vaxxer…’ Do you really expect me to chase after Wikipedia BS? Maybe find out what Philip Cross thinks?
      I won’t even bother to check it to find if it mentions that Fauci cheated her and her co-worker out of the honour of discovering something or other (my memory is pretty bad on some things) by delaying the publishing and giving the report to a friend, who reproduced Dr Mikovits’ and her co-workers’ work and claimed credit, because if it had been on Wilepedia, Cross or their ilk would have removed it, because it didn’t have a MSM confirmatory article.
      Please yourself if you reply, or check out my comments. The one above details (in the video) a great deal of dangerous stuff in vaccines that should not be there, and names them (in many cases the lab/s could not identify stuff, but knew it shouldn’t be there because it was not on the list of things in the vaccine by the manufacturer). So it certainly is not ‘Conspiracy Theory’ to allege they put dangerous stuff in vaccines. Read it or not, please yer sen, but if you don’t like it, don’t bother replying to my comments. Admittedly, it would be hard to answer the questions the video brings up, so it’s a good time to ‘quit in a huff’.

    • #52772 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      It is you who is acting as a victim now and going on in a huff. It really is a very serious question of the integrity of the research of Dr Mikovits, which you quoted to support the theory that vaccines are contaminated with a monkey retrovirus. There is ample proof that this research produced erroneous results, that others have not been able to replicate this, and that eventually Science (the periodical) retracted this paper because it could not substantiate the fighting. It is also now widely known that Dr Mikovits has become a serious campaigning anti-vaxxer. I asked you a serious question: Where you aware that Dr Mikovits’ research has been retracted by Science and that therefore this particular allegation about vaccine contamination is wrong, but you failed to answer the question.
      Here is the original publication, and here is the retraction by Science.
      Now all I wanted to know, before going down the rabbit hole of looking at your next conspiracy theory of covid-19 and so many other medical CTs was whether you were aware of this. Instead of answering directly you tried to dodge the question by using my reference to Wikipedia as an excuse to not answer.
      Why does this matter? Others read this blog and we are here as guests of Craig Murray and we must respect this privilege to voice our ideas, but also have the responsibility to not spread misinformation. If anything written is misinformation, it may reflect on the website. The mods have been involved in this and it is best if you can look at their comment and respond. You can either agree with my answer or disagree with good reasons but not fob me off with several other diversions.

    • #52778 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Paul Barbara May 1, 2020 at 02:14
      Sorry all, I made a slip on the point of the video ‘VaccineGate English‘ which had the relevant ifo – it should have been from 16:35 on.
      Incidentally, the Dr. in the English-dubbed Italian video also claims they found retrovirus’s in the vaccines they tested. So if they are right, looks like Dr. Mikovits was right too.
      The PTB will happily lie, cheat and even kill to further their evil agendas.
      Mods, I’ve tried to add the Link as you said, I don’t know if it will work)

    • #52779 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA May 1, 2020 at 13:39
      No, I did not know, or I would have checked it out: I still haven’t checked it out, but will do so as you have provided links. But now I have read what you say about Retrovirus’s, the Italian investigation and lab tests showed retrovirus’s in vaccines, yet neither the Italian government not the vaccine manufacturers have responded to their requests to show their safety tests.
      The video is not long, and should be of interest. It was read out in a Press Conference in one of the two Houses of the Italian Parliament, the Chamber of Deputies.
      Small point – I gave the wrong starting point in my comment for the ‘VaccineGate English’ – it should have been from 16:35 onwards, but the whole video is of interest.
      I tried to link the ‘VaccineGate English’ into a reply just now, but it didn’t work. Back to the drawing-board for that one. This reply is important, so I wont try again at the moment.
      As should be apparent, I would not put anything on here I believed to be false.

    • #52788 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      We are going round in circles here. You have answered my questions about the reliability of Dr Mikovits’ finding of retrovirus responsible for MI, autism myeloma and other cancers by posting a video conference from an Italian group making allegations. I can only judge whether the data produced is reliable by looking at a publication, preferably peer reviewed. What you posted appears to have no other provenance on the internet and therefore is not proof of anything and I would classify it as antivaxxers propaganda. Please understand, scientific assessment of findings can only be based on published data not on press conferences. Please do not waste your time and my time. Unless you have an agenda.

    • #52797 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ SA May 1, 2020 at 19:20
      ‘…Unless you have an agenda…’ Of course I have an agenda – getting the truth out (in this case re vaccines).
      I take it you did not watch the video, or you would have seen the strength of the Italian Dr.’s ‘allegations’; she is the advisor to an Italian Parliamentary Committee. I have spent over half the day chasing up links and punctuating and trying to iron out a machine-translated transcript of the ‘VaccineGate English’ video – I have just finished. It isn’t perfect, but it’s better than it was. I have had some invaluable help online from a couple of people who gave me links on a Forum, and also the name of the doctor, it’s Dr. Loretta Bolgan. The website of the assoociation she works for is <corvelva.it/en/>
      She explains in the video why they went public before ‘Peer Review’ – because that could take two years, and the information of the dangers cannot wait for two years, in which tens of thousands of children may be injected with contaminated vaccines. They most certainly do intend to put it up for Peer Review. If you are interested, there is a way to get the English translation from the video link to the video, but it will be one without punctuation and with many errors in things like names (from the machine translation), but the essence is very clear. If I had your email I could send you my amended copy; it is too long to post on here.
      They found Avian Leukaemia virus and mouse DNA, as well as Retrovirus’s, and loads of other gunk.
      If you watched the video, you might well change your opinion of vaccines, if you are genuinely seeking the truth.

    • #52802 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      I have watched some of the video. It is nonsensical to say that it takes two years to get something peer reviewed especially if it contains important public health data. I shall not pursue you to deny the misinformation you spread and continue to deny why Science withdrew Dr Mikovits paper. Over to the mods.

    • #52805 Reply
      Dr Edd
      Guest

      @Paul
      The “Vaccinegate English” video shows a press conference organised by the anti-vaccination lobby group Corvelva to announce Dr Loretta Bolgan’s findings to the world. You describe her as an “adviser to an Italian Parliamentary Committee” as if she’s some sort of equivalent to Prof. Chris Whitty, but as far as I can tell she sat on a subcommittee concerned with Depleted Uranium in 2016. She’s actually a researcher (or “scientific consultant”) with Corvelva – the anti-vax campaigners.

      A few days later, Dr Enrico Bucci (an Italian equivalent of Ben Goldacre) published a detailed critique of Dr Bolgan’s claims, with 8 major methodological objections. He summarised:

      In light of the considerations made, it is therefore not possible to confirm the presence of any of the contaminating genomes reported, and there are strong clues that lead us to think about the presence of numerous false positives.

      In her response, Dr Bolgan rowed back from her former “strong” claims:

      I have to underline an important thing once and for all: Corvelva is not doing a batch release check and has not requested to use validated methods for batch analysis, as producers, accredited laboratories and the ISS must do.

      As already mentioned, the data are not definitive and there may be inaccuracies in the reports. Everything will be reviewed and corrected as the work progresses.

      We are in the research and development phase…. Inter-laboratory tests and the introduction of appropriate certified viral mix standards will allow us to verify or deny the hypothesis you proposed, that is, that the method is not (yet) optimized for viruses.

      libraries were not obtained and therefore it was not possible to run them on the sequencer to check exactly what the reagent / environmental contamination is. However, efforts are being made to try to understand what ‘physiological’ contaminations there are and inter-laboratory tests will also help in determining possible laboratory-dependent bacterial contaminations.

      So by her own admission Loretta Bolgan conducted a preliminary study without screening filters, on vaccine samples with unknown contaminants, found what seemed to be viruses and elements of DNA and immediately broadcast her findings (which may contain “inaccuracies”) to the anti-vaxxer press; and then weakened her claims considerably when challenged. She still hasn’t refined her methods or submitted her work for peer review. How come, if it was so urgent back then that she had to tell the press before even confirming her results or validating her methodology?

      Do you know if any independent studies replicated those preliminary findings? (I’d have thought the anti-vaxxers would be getting celebratory tattoos if so.)

      Good luck with your search for truth, Paul.

    • #52816 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      Let us assume that your agenda is to find the truth. If this is true, then it is not reconcilable with the fact that you start of by rubbishing the WHO, all vaccine manufacturers, the majority of the scientific community, public health bodies and all world governments. If we start of by trusting only websites that tell us what we want to hear then that turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is understandable that some people question the safety of vaccines and ask searching questions, but the methodology to show this lack of safety has to be rigorous otherwise you are applying double standards. In the case of evidence that you present, the sources are often well known antivaxxers advocacy websites with dubious and pseudo-scientific arguments. If your intentions are what you say they are I would like you to consider what I write next, carefully and answer truthfully.
      I have spent time looking at various allegations about vaccines that you have raised recently. I have not looked at covid-19 here as this has been discussed by many in this blog in other discussion groups.
      I looked at a summary of what we know about XMRV and then also looked at a quick background on Dr Loretta Bolgar and the organisation she works for Corvelva.
      A good review of and what we know about XMRV, which is what Dr Mikovits was working on and claimed to be associated with chronic fatigue syndrome and various human cancers can be found here, in a reputable journal with references and logical scientific thinking. Here is the abstract. I apologise that this contains some rather complex scientific concepts, but that is why complex scientific concepts should be interpreted by competent scientists and not politicians and laymen.

      Xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV) was discovered in 2006 in a search for a viral etiology of human prostate cancer (PC). Substantial interest in XMRV as a potentially new pathogenic human retrovirus was driven by reports that XMRV could be detected in a significant percentage of PC samples, and also in tissues from patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). After considerable controversy, etiologic links between XMRV and these two diseases were disproven. XMRV was determined to have arisen during passage of a human PC tumor in immunocompromised nude mice, by activation and recombination between two endogenous murine leukemia viruses from cells of the mouse. The resulting XMRV had a xenotropic host range, which allowed it replicate in the human tumor cells in the xenograft. This review describes the discovery of XMRV, and the molecular and virological events leading to its formation, XMRV infection in animal models and biological effects on infected cells. Lessons from XMRV for other searches of viral etiologies of cancer are discussed, as well as cautions for researchers working on human tumors or cell lines that have been passed through nude mice, including potential biohazards associated with XMRV or other similar xenotropic murine leukemia viruses (MLVs).

      This plus the other references to XMRV and the discredited work of Dr Mikovits, to me settle this problem, as she then later went on to claim that this also contaminated vaccines, quitted research and became an advocate for the anti-vaxxers movement. So for me this is closed, unless you come up with some good refutation of what I said.

      As to the case of the video you linked to from the Italian parliament, I shall make no comments about why this was aired in the Italian parliament, my knowledge of Italian politics is next to nil, but I am aware that it is currently dominated by two factions, the populist five star movement and the right wing Lega parties. But be that as it may, the Corvelva association is a self declared advocacy group which has claims to fight for “Free choice of vaccinations.” and do this through

      Scientific research
      The principle of information on the entire scientific research relating to the effectiveness of vaccinations and the possible adverse reactions of vaccinations.

      That is all very well but to date the association has failed to produce any peer reviewed publication to substantiate their claims about the lack of safety and efficacy of vaccines. What has been published apparently is an internet, non peer reviewed document, and they hide behind the excuse that it takes two years to publish in a peer reviewed journal, which is not true.
      Yes I know that the link I provided is vaxopedia, with a mission to debunk the antivaxxer movement, but they give a cogent case with appropriate link. Here is also another website analysing the activities of Corvelva.
      Sadly I cannot get any background on Loretta Bolgan. When I click on the search link I get this message

      This site is not secure
      This might mean that someone’s trying to fool you or steal any info you send to the server. You should close this site immediately.
      Go to your Start page
      Details
      This website’s security certificate has been revoked, so you can’t go there at this time.
      Error Code: ERROR_INTERNET_SEC_CERT_REVOKED

      Paul
      Why I am spending time to answer you. The answer is in Luke 15:7, The parable of the lost sheep.

      In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent.

      I appeal to your better self, because I think you are genuinely concerned about us all being duped in various ways. But it is important to maintain a balance. It is of course important to be careful about the safety of vaccinations and also about mandatory vaccinations and limitations of freedom in other ways, but these have become important issues that need to be tackled, not through false science but through careful arguments based on facts.

    • #52818 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Dr. Edd May 2, 2020 at 08:27
      Did you actually watch the video? Two laboratories found a host of dangerous stuff that should not have been in them; I’ll give a few examples in the following exerts. It is important to realise the translations were automated, and I punctuated them and corrected any obvious errors, not in medical terms as I know next to nothing about them, but don’t jump on any obvious error, because it will either be mine or the translating machine’s:
      I know these are long, but I can’t give you a link, because it involves getting the translation yourself from the video site and is quite complicated, but I do hope you watch the video yourself, which is dubbed in English:

      ‘…With their permission I’m talking about laboratories that are working on behalf of third parties; their work is focused on analysing complex matrices with the latest advanced technology and they have all the appropriate certifications to perform these kinds of studies. Again, the first screening level has been done to identify the unknown vaccine components and we cannot apply the standard validated methods to analysing the unknown vaccine components that were found because the standard validated methods can only be applied to analysing known components which is a normal process for the manufacturers of the vaccines so the phase we are in is one of research and development which will need to go beyond what the manufacturing industries currently do. The first type of screening concerns genetic material so we have looked for DNA, RNA and viruses that can accidentally contaminate a vaccine. We have used a system called next-generation sequencing that until five years ago wasn’t even well-established as an analysis method now however it is considered a routine analysis method that is also available privately.
      Another important method is mass spectrometry and with this technology we have been able to investigate the chemical and proteic parts in the vaccines; also this technology is currently used for forensic analysis and this specific technology has been acquired by the FDA for the analysis of contaminations in complex matrices so we are talking about a very reliable accurate technology. We’ve already finalized the analysis on four vaccines…’

      ‘..we have found a relevant quantity of fetal DNA that was coming from a complete genome so we have an entire human genome in this vaccine which can be classified as a vaccine component. We didn’t find the Rubella; we performed an extremely deep sequencing with 260 million sequences analysed and we found only a hundred and fourteen of Rubella. As a result of this study we have found four contaminant viruses: endogenous retrovirus, leukemia virus, equine anemia and avian leukemia virus. These viruses are widely studied in human anatomy and they can bond with human DNA. This being a vaccine containing an attenuated virus it would be appropriate to understand if these ones are deactivated or if they have been analysed because they present a hazard profile and mostly the quantity far exceeds the quantity of Rubella that’s present in the vaccine…’
      ‘..It seems that the formaldehyde and aluminum adjuvant in vaccines is forming chemical bonds that structurally modify these proteins and make them incompatible with intracellular enzymes, rendering them impossible for the body to break down. They can also roam around the body and they remain there for a long time because they are very difficult to excrete so once again the question is if the proteins have changed their actual form do they still create protective antibodies?..’
      ‘..All these problems raise questions about the quality of these vaccines being not a hundred percent guaranteed and if we can’t guarantee the quality we cannot guarantee the efficacy nor the safety of these vaccines ..’
      (translated automatically from ‘VaccineGate English’ video site and punctuated and partially corrected by P. Barbara)

      Note that Dr. Bolgan and Corvelva have requested information from the government and manufacturers for copies of their own test results, so they can compare their results. They have been stonewalled, and instead of getting their answers they are demonised as ‘anti-vaxxers’. But they ain’t going nowhere, and a have good public backing.
      ‘The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.’

    • #52824 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Paul
      It is you who is stonewalling. Dr Edd answered already some of what you say. Dr Bolgan has already retracted some of her own allegations. Here is what Dr Edd said, in case you missed it:

      “A few days later, Dr Enrico Bucci (an Italian equivalent of Ben Goldacre) published a detailed critique of Dr Bolgan’s claims, with 8 major methodological objections. He summarised:

      In light of the considerations made, it is therefore not possible to confirm the presence of any of the contaminating genomes reported, and there are strong clues that lead us to think about the presence of numerous false positives.

      In her response, Dr Bolgan rowed back from her former “strong” claims:

      I have to underline an important thing once and for all: Corvelva is not doing a batch release check and has not requested to use validated methods for batch analysis, as producers, accredited laboratories and the ISS must do.
      As already mentioned, the data are not definitive and there may be inaccuracies in the reports. Everything will be reviewed and corrected as the work progresses.
      We are in the research and development phase…. Inter-laboratory tests and the introduction of appropriate certified viral mix standards will allow us to verify or deny the hypothesis you proposed, that is, that the method is not (yet) optimized for viruses.”

      I have already stated that Corvelva and Dr Bolgan have never produced a published peer reviewed research to back up their allegations. You answer by giving us a transcript of what Dr Bolgan has said, again without any evidence. As I said you are spinning. You are not really interested in the truth, in fact maybe the movement should not be called truthers but truth distortionists. Having said all that I now know that you are part of a disinformation network and will not comment on your type of propaganda.

    • #52825 Reply
      Dr Edd
      Guest

      @ SA, May 2, 2020 at 09:27

      Dr Loretta Bolgan is a qualified pharmaceutical chemist with some post-doctoral experience in genomic analysis. In her own words:

      Dr. Bolgan, what is your professional training?
      I have a degree in Pharmaceutical Chemistry and Technologies and I have a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences. I worked at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston as a molecular biologist, where I did genetic manipulations of viruses and studies on carcinogenesis. Later I worked in a company that deals with research and development of diagnostic kits. I published my studies in these first years of activity, to then dedicate myself to the study of vaccine toxicology. For over fifteen years I have been working as a partisan technical consultant for various law firms and I deal with scientific advice on vaccine damage, explaining if and which components have caused problems to those who have used it.

      From the rest of the interview, which is relatively measured in tone, it’s clear she doesn’t agree with the principle of vaccination – so the term “partisan”, although an imprecise translation from Italian, is fairly apt in this case.

      Here is an alternative perspective on her credentials from Dr Enrico Bucci in Cattivi Scienziati (Bad Scientists):

      Not like that expert pharmacologist, Dr. Loretta Bolgan, who studied for some time at Harvard but evidently failed to produce anything but 4 articles on PubMed between 1997 and 2005, without even one article in which she appears as first or last name: that is a real expert.
      So expert is she and so expert are the others from CORVELVA, not to notice a curious fact: the presence of manipulated images in two of the four Bolgan articles (precisely those made at Harvard). As it happens, I am an expert in the sector: here is a little help to understand what we are talking about.
      I reproduce below two of the things found in the 4 works of CORVELVA’s favorite expert on pharmacology.
      The first, below, shows how two lanes appear in two images of gel electrophoresis (blue and red arrows respectively), used to build a second image in the same work with what appears to be the most classic “copy and paste” aimed at manufacturing experimental data.

      Make of it what you will. Unlike Bolgan, Bucci is a recognised expert in genomics, with over 80 peer-reviewed publications. He also has a sideline in exposing scientific charlatans.

      Of course, these are authority arguments, which neither establish nor refute the veracity of her claims about vaccines. They do however give a strong indication of bias, which is certainly relevant to the interpretation of any inference she makes from uncertain data. Unfortunately, uncertain data is all she has to offer. Accordingly, her conclusions are shakier than a geriatric with Parkinson’s.

      Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits. The initial argument she ventures doesn’t fare well from the expert evaluation, however: Bucci highlighted 8 serious methodological flaws. In my opinion the matter is important enough to warrant a similar screening study to test the null hypothesis … not by anti-vaccination organisations (who are by their nature highly partisan) nor by pharmaceutical companies themselves (who have a record of concealing unprofitable data) but by universities who are answerable to a higher academic standard. The EMA has considered Dr Bolgan’s concerns, but has so far declined to investigate until her study is published in a peer-reviewed journal. Until then, her preliminary ‘findings’ are only useful for whipping up sentiment.

    • #52883 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Dr Edd
      Are you aware of any connection between Dr Bogdan and Convelva with Dr Mikovits who originally described the later retracted findings regarding presence of the XMRV in blood from patients with With CFS and prostate cancer?

    • #53272 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Dr. Edd May 2, 2020 at 14:48
      I made a longer more detailed reply a week ago, but it disappeared into the ether.
      ‘…Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits. The initial argument she ventures doesn’t fare well from the expert evaluation, however: Bucci highlighted 8 serious methodological flaws. In my opinion the matter is important enough to warrant a similar screening study to test the null hypothesis … not by anti-vaccination organisations (who are by their nature highly partisan) nor by pharmaceutical companies themselves (who have a record of concealing unprofitable data) but by universities who are answerable to a higher academic standard. The EMA has considered Dr Bolgan’s concerns, but has so far declined to investigate until her study is published in a peer-reviewed journal. Until then, her preliminary ‘findings’ are only useful for whipping up sentiment.’
      Dr. Bolgan and Corvelva have stated all along that the tests are ongoing and these are incomplete tests, but they have been carried out by qualified laboratories. The full tests would take longer and doubtless cost more (Corvelva is presumably financed by public donations), but the main reason they haven’t waited until all the tests are done, is because the vaccines for the children are mandatory. That means the longer the delay, the more children would be exposed to whatever poisonous substances MAY be in them.
      Yet the EMA and Italian government, as well as the vaccine manufacturers, just drag their feet, and haven’t responded to the requests for copies of the testing that has been done to show they are safe.

      You agree that ‘…Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits….’ – so what’s the problem? That is all she and Corvelva want – copies of tests that should have been done (maybe they weren’t, or exposed things the manufacturers don’t want publicised), and retests given their preliminary lab findings.
      Given the enormity of the possible consequences if only a fraction of Corvelvas’ tests are shown to be correct, the precautionary principal should ensure the government and regulatory bodies need to get moving on this, not procrastinate.
      There should be no need for Corvelva to do any of theses tests – the manufacturers and regulatory bodies should have done them, and shown the results, which they seem highly reluctant to do.

    • #53394 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      “Yet the EMA and Italian government, as well as the vaccine manufacturers, just drag their feet, and haven’t responded to the requests for copies of the testing that has been done to show they are safe.”

      This, scandalously, is typical. Goldacre reports many similar examples in Bad Pharma, though regarding pharmaceuticals rather than vaccines. It’s called “regulatory capture” and is caused partly by frequent association and the revolving door between manufacturers and the regulators from employees up to senior administrators, partly government apathy, partly inadequate regulatory rules and partly lack of enforcement of existing rules. This is a data access issue, and it needs to be thoroughly cleaned out, but don’t hold your breath in our neoliberal world; it’s been a known major problem for decades.

      But in any particular case, it may matter a lot, or it may matter not at all, because vaccine vigilance is also performed by studying the end results. Vaccines are administered to millions, and records are kept by health authorities, thus creating a massive database from which vaccine effects can be, and are, examined with superb accuracy and in great depth.

      Is this a new vaccine? If not, you can go to the Cochrane Library, an online resource where systematic reviews of all sorts of studies are published in full and made available and searchable for the public with no charge.

    • #53395 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      You also have to be very sceptical of the lawyers and the “expert witnesses” in all this; you have to remember that they get paid handsomely whether there’s any real danger or not, and whether they win their case or lose it.

      That’s the problem with capitalism; anyone can be on the make, in fact everyone has to be on the make or they aren’t “successful”.

      Paul, did you get to the bit in Bad Science about patient groups, and how they get funding and support from PR companies from the manufacturers of alternatives to the current standard treatment? This was exactly what Wakefield was involved with; he was helping a legal firm to discredit the MMR “three in one” jab while being involved in the development of another vaccine of a set to be administered separately.

      Mammon corrupts everything, and just because the big wolf is bad doesn’t mean the smaller wolf is your friend.

    • #53479 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 13, 2020 at 23:40
      I am still at the same point in ‘Bad Science’, and I’m not likely going to get back to it for a while due to more important reading I have to do.
      It’s fine to agree that Regulatory Agencies are ‘captured’, we both agree on that, but that is the whole purpose of Dr. Bolgan and ‘Corvelva’ getting tests done, and though the whole series is not yet complete, demanding government take action to clarify the safety or otherwise of the mandatory children’s vaccines. It is no use at all to wait till tens or hundreds or thousands of kids get seriously injured or killed by these mandatory vaccines, the Precautionary Principle demands the government take immediate action, which they have not done, nor do they show any inclination to do so in the future.
      Of course, both sides are biased – Corvelva, over their children’s health, and the government and Big Pharma, over mega-bucks. I’m also biased, in favour of the children and parents.
      many if not most of the campaigners backing Corvelva are not ‘anti-vaxxers’, but they demand safe vaccines and proof of efficacy.
      Even Dr. Judy Mikovits is not an anti-vaxxer, nor is Bobby Kennedy Jr., they are against unsafe vaccines, and against mandatory vaccines.
      I haven’t had time to go back and find the vaccines that Corvelva has had tested, they tested more than 4 (each multiple disease) but only used info re 4, because they didn’t yet have the results from the labs for the others. They found a host of gunk in them which shouldn’t be there, but acknowledged that these were only preliminary results, and more specific and rigorous testing was needed to confirm or negate their preliminary findings.
      Regarding the ‘Scientific Approach’ to Covid-19, this should be of interest:
      ‘COVID CHAOS: A Closer Look At Coronavirus Testing’
      ‘…Flaws in Testing

      This is not the first time coronavirus tests have come into question. In Britain, tests produced under Public Health England (PHE) protocols were found to lack sufficient accuracy and were abandoned. Similarly, in the United States, the CDC’s own tests were also found to be flawed. Other countries including the United States, Spain, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Turkey and India have all reported faulty or inaccurate tests from Chinese suppliers.
      Obviously, bad tests means bad results. False negative test results return people who are actually infected with COVID-19 back into the community, confirmed to be safe to enjoy their remaining freedom. If the virus spreads and behaves as the MSM would have us believe, a small number of false negatives could spell disaster…’
      Even the designer of the PCR test said it should NOT be used for diagnosis; but then a test that can be skewed to go either way, like a Diebold voting machine, is a handy tool to the PTB if they have a nefarious agenda.
      I wonder if anyone on here is going to try to ridicule the PCR test information in the article? Because if it is true, it demolishes the whole concept of using these tests as they are currently being used.

    • #53632 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      “Of course, both sides are biased – Corvelva, over their children’s health, and the government and Big Pharma, over mega-bucks”

      Unfortunately it’s not as simple as that. The majority of Corvelva members are probably concerned only about safety for their children, but they make their decisions in an information environment that is being actively corrupted from all sides, because the “PTB” is not a unified bloc but a battleground, a competition for profit. The only real “PTB” is capital itself ie. Mammon, which mere humans fight to acquire, and the nearer the top the dirtier the fight.

      If GlaxoSmithKline are making the leading vaccine Quadrateq(TM) for blobulitis, do you think Merck & Co are above feeding cherry-picked information to Corvelva via a front, to associate Quadrateq(TM) with fear and anxiety? And if Corvelva just coincidentally raise suspicions about Quadrateq(TM), don’t you think Merck & Co might covertly encourage funds, lawyers and expert witnesses in Corvelva’s direction?

    • #53649 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      The dialogue above reminds me of medieval maps of the outer oceans, territories demarcated: There be monsters.
      Oh really the world is a scary place with big pharma not really out to profit by making effective medicines but by actually marketing crap products that not only don’t work but are positively harmful, and guess what? Through regulatory capture they do it because they have their men in the regulatory bodies through the revolving door.
      I am not saying that there is a lot of sharp practice in medicine production but there is really no evidence for this world of vaccines fraught with chemical contaminants, gunk and viruses. You have got to be paranoid to believe this rubbish.
      So

      I haven’t had time to go back and find the vaccines that Corvelva has had tested, they tested more than 4 (each multiple disease) but only used info re 4, because they didn’t yet have the results from the labs for the others. They found a host of gunk in them which shouldn’t be there, but acknowledged that these were only preliminary results, and more specific and rigorous testing was needed to confirm or negate their preliminary findings.

      Really Paul? Have you read through what you are trying to sell us here, and in your own admission you have not had time to verify? I tell you a friendly piece of advice, you just go and do that before disseminating misinformation, go and verify, your acute sense of duty to publish before verifying is reflected in the sources you also quote, they to have not verified their findings, nor published it in any proper venue. To have suspicion about something does not make it true. In fact I am very surprised that Paul continues to write this, having been challenged above, by both me and the Mods about Dr Mikovits, and having failed to answer the questions I posed to him? And what we get is: have you read bad science, oh no I have more important things to do for the service of the vaccine doubting fraternity.

    • #53655 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 16, 2020 at 15:00
      I notice you didn’t refer to the PCR test question.
      Your contention, or inference, that this is a six-of-one and half a dozen of the other does not match up with reality; re money, we are talking about a multi-$billion dollar industry, one of the biggest lobbying groups bunging politicians and MSM, against a handful of dedicated battlers for the truth and safety for the general public, especially children.
      Yes, there will be charlatans and dis-info merchants in their ranks – Big Pharma will have ensured that, to discredit them, just as police and security agencies plant agent provocateurs in Demos, and disrupters in political parties and protest groups.
      But basically, the people campaigning for safe, voluntary vaccines and transparency are fighting againnst the odds, basically on a hiding to nothing.
      Now and again, they get a result, like Bobby Kennedy Jr. and Del Bigtree:
      RFK Jr. Wins Case Against Government For Vaccine Safety Violations‘.
      ‘…This will come as big and important news for anyone concerned with the safety of vaccines: as it turns out the federal government has been neglecting safety obligation for decades, which has been proven in a court of law bringing RFK Jr and ICAN to victory over DHHS.

      Robert F. Kennedy Jr teamed up with Del Bigtree of the Informed Consent Action Network to take on the Department of Health and Human Services for vaccine safety violations and they have won. Their lawsuit has brought forth evidence that vaccine safety has been neglected for over 30 years, and as we know it is nothing but a sham, showing that the government agencies we are to trust are not doing their jobs to ensure and improve the safety of immunizations…’

      Every two years since 1986 the DHHS were supposed to report on the safety and improvements of vaccines, and in 30 years they never once reported back to Congress. How on earth can you knock those who demand safe vaccines, under those circumstances?

      ‘…The DHHS has failed to meet even the most basic aspects of these important duties entrusted to them by failing to file a single report for the past three decades. It has been over 30 years since NVICA was put into place and entrusted to the DHHS to safeguard children, despite being the agency tasked with the responsibility of investigating and improving safety they have not done as much as to raise a finger towards vaccine safety…’

      I don’t know what, if any, penalty the DHHS suffered, but I expect nothing has changed.
      And the CDC and EPA are similarly criminally lax and corrupted.

    • #53657 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      SA, the roots of the suspicion lie in (1) secrecy and (2) the corporate media.

      You’ve read Bad Science, so you know that each chapter successively covers increasingly sophisticated varieties of bullshit, starting at the trivial with the “detox” industry, and working upwards through educational woo, cosmetics, homeopathy, naturopathy, supplements, nutritionism, pharmaceuticals, and vaccines – never forget that it was attempting to work with Big Legal and for Big Pharma that launched Wakefield on his anti-MMR crusade.

      But what you may have missed in Bad Science is that nearly every chapter is about how the “news” media distort and misrepresent science, and thereby undermine the public’s understanding of science itself. Bad Science is, more than anything, a scathing criticism of the “MSM”. If the main thing you got from it was to laugh at the quacks, you should read it again. Twice. Big Pharma are only less quackish because they’re more tightly regulated, but they’re every bit as unscrupulous as their cousins, the cosmetics industry.

      The public are indeed the pawns, but the science and medical professionals are only knights and bishops. Even the regulators and execs are only rooks and queens. We’re all being played, our health and understanding themselves are both the kings (half of which have to lose), but most importantly there’s only one player, one maker of the rules, one owner of the board, and that’s capital, or Mammon.

      I can’t blame Paul for either his suspicion or his lack of understanding, for who is there to tell him? The description of the game as related by the corporate media (from which the alternative media subtends) is so unlike the reality that the actual game is almost impossible to recognise. And well over half of it is hidden behind NDAs anyway.

    • #53661 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      “I can’t blame Paul for either his or his lack of understanding, for who is there to tell him?”
      You have blamed Node, Dave and others so why not Paul?
      Paul refuses to answer and bypasses questions posed to him. And it is exactly this that we have to be wary of the MSM as much as big pharma and governments, but not by following discredited scientists like Dr Mikovits and Corvelva group. I have asked him specific questions about this and produced evidence easily available and Dr Edd provided background information of the Italian case but he chose to ignore this. He is not debating he is diverting. I thought that this is the type of misinformation we are against.
      And I will not accept that bad science and bad pharma are the be all of everything that is going on. I have my own experiences and know what it is all about. Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children whilst pretending to be concerned about children. They are often connected to ‘natural movement’ and websites that practice quackery and profiteer from alternative medicine.

    • #53676 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      SA, a primary tool of what I call the Toxic System is to divide us against each other. You and Paul and me are all fundamentally united in wanting good health for people, but we are divided about the means.

      “You have blamed Node, Dave and others so why not Paul?”

      Hmm, good question. What occurred to me first was that Paul and I have actually met in the real world, more than once. Very oddly, that should have made things worse because his behaviour towards me risked escalation of a legal action against Craig. I found the situation extremely stressful and frustrating since I was standing in to support Craig for a very close friend of Craig’s who couldn’t be there. The situation didn’t even end well; circumstances parted us with a heated row pending. But for some reason we have remained in contact and met again, without animosity. I think he and I are both confident of the other’s good intentions.

      What occurred to me second is that I do disagree with you to a considerable extent. In your comment of May 16, 20:27, #53649 you wrote:

      “..big pharma not really out to profit by making effective medicines but by actually marketing crap products that not only don’t work but are positively harmful, and guess what? Through regulatory capture they do it because they have their men in the regulatory bodies through the revolving door”,

      and these are literally the case. The effectiveness of capitalist “medicine” is merely bait. Capital doesn’t give a damn whether a medicine is safe or effective; it doesn’t make “medicine” to make people better, it does it for one reason only, which is to make profit.

      Now I expect your hackles have risen and you feel that is too extreme, but before it was withdrawn vioxx probably killed about as many people as US servicemen killed in the invasion and occupation of Vietnam, and Merck knew there was a safety risk. They went ahead and marketed anyway. They didn’t market with disclosure; “try this, but monitor for heart attacks”; indeed they couldn’t have done that within the Toxic System, they’d never have got vioxx licensed if they’d have disclosed the risk, because the system is adversarial.

      Capitalist medicine is effective only to the extent that bait needs to be convincing. We put a real maggot on the fishing hook, don’t we?

      “Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children”

      You already posted a link elsewhere that shows that neoliberalism, again, is the major culprit, placing so much pressure upon parents that their lack of time and attention account for the majority of children who go unvaccinated.
      – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

      Division. Those medieval maps weren’t actually wrong, were they? We know now that the “monsters” were actually undocumented species of giant squid, cetaceans and algal blooms, but they really were there, and sometimes they posed dangers to medieval sailors. But their true nature was mostly hidden by the ocean itself.

      I have more to write on this but it’s time, always time… Issues have become polarised, inexorably, over decades. You wrote:

      “I have my own experiences and know what it is all about”

      and I’d like to ask you to write about this.

    • #53677 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul – “I notice you didn’t refer to the PCR test question.”

      Indeed, and as I just told SA, I only have limited time. It’s an immense strain on me, trying to pull the various sides together, trying to engender unity amid the neoliberal ocean of division. SA has important points, Dr Mikovits paper was indeed withdrawn, and Mikovits indeed has a history of mistaking lab contamination for genuine results.

      At May 17, 02:49 you saw SA partially dismiss Bad Science and Bad Pharma. I hope that provides an incentive for you to complete your reading of Bad Science. I’d also urge you to a second reading; I’ve read my copy so many times that it has literally fallen apart. The reason I bypassed PCR is one of the immensely powerful tools contained within; that tool reveals that don’t need the PCR detail to reach my overall conclusion that covid-19 is very real and very deadly. That tool saved me weeks of time.

      I am glad that Robert F. Kennedy Jr, Del Bigtree and the Informed Consent Action Network have succeeded in prising open a vault. The contents will be treasure, but it is now vitally important that they are not now spent as gold coins, scattered to the four corners of Earth for whatever influence they can buy; to do so would be to fall into Mammon’s trap. The pieces are not currency, they are parts of a jigsaw, and not even a complete one. Nonetheless, the picture they contribute to is the prize we seek, for it is a map, a diagram, and our overriding concern must be to piece these new parts into the sections that have already been assembled.

    • #53681 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul and SA, I have now written to both of you. I ask you each to also read the comments that I have written to the other. Due to the strain on me I need you to both see that I am not taking the other’s side, which is the impression you will probably get if you only read the comment I addressed to you. If the tension increases too much I will have to drop out before I break, and my attempts at unification will go to waste.

      Division itself is our problem. No one here is an enemy.

    • #53688 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 17, 2020 at 11:03
      I understand the point about time – I’m also hamstrung by that. In my case, it is my lack of energy and constant tiredness that has me having to take naps at all times of the day.
      Couple of points – we actually have only met once, when Craig was at the High Court.
      We were about to meet again at the XR Demos when circumstances blocked that meeting. We’ll make it another time.
      Re Judy Mikovits’ paper being ‘withdrawn’, I think it was withdrawn by the magazine or wherever it was published, not by Mikovits. I don’t really know anything about that aspect, but I do suspect if she found mouse viruses in a vaccine that she was right – mice have been used in creating deadly pathogens since at least the early ’60’s (and are still used to create vaccines), when they and monkeys were used to create a virulent fast-acting cancer that was created to infect Castro; it even involved the construction of an ‘atom-smasher’ (I forget the scientific name) which was dismantled after it malfunctioned and almost killed a doctor, who was subsequently murdered.
      I have watched her video, ‘Plandemic’, and I believe her version of events rather than the host of ‘demonisers’. Good news (from my point of view) is she now has a #1 best-seller on the market. And in ‘Plandemic’, she categorically denies being an ‘anti-vaxxer’.

    • #53690 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Clark
      Thank you for attempting to address both our concerns. As you say answering in a satisfactory way entails time and research and that is useful if these efforts are acknowledged. I would and have sometimes apologised if I have made a mistake but what is frustrating is when you have done some background research and found some reasons to explain some claims, is that the responders, in this case Paul, does not address the questions but goes on to either add more claims of a different kind, or ignores the answers all together. That makes me think that someone is debating from a fixed position and therefore it would be impossible to change this fixed view. But as you have yourself said before, we bother to do the research and to answer not necessarily to try and change the responders mind, but to counter their arguments as there are many readers of this blog, who may be otherwise misled.
      There are general principles: we live in a neoliberal capitalist society and ever since Eisenhower coined the phrase, the Military Industrial Complex, we are fully aware that all big corporations have one overriding aim, making money for the shareholders above all else. But they do not do that by just ripping you off, that belongs to the middle ages with robber princes. The success of capitalism has been that not only are these products excellent products, but that they become desirable and essential to the style of life that has become adapted (or corrupted) to these items. So to make a lot of money corporations have to be highly successful, nobody will make money out of products that are rubbish or harmful (except for the arms industry, but the harm is done to others, in the name of protecting us). But capitalism has developed ways of making enterprises more successful than they should be by the regulatory and political capture, the revolving door, legal dominance and formation of monopolies and cartels. This is the world we live in and we have to accept. But it is a whole integrated system and is difficult to fight by trying to pick issues that divert from the real issues and divide between us, as you say. In the case of big Pharma, as in the case of banking and as in the case of the petroleum industry and automobile industry, there are sharp practices and major failures. The fact the VW fiddled their emission figures and the fact that the banks have played loose with our money, does not mean that we should so mistrust everything to do with banks and motor cars and revert to live in caves. This is were I find the antivaccine movement most wanting. Of course there are historic issues with vaccination and of course there are issues with how drugs are licensed, but the anti vaccine movement appear to live in a time warp and quite often their methodology is dubious. As you pointed out yourself, Wakefield, who started all this may have been sponsored by some insurance companies. So it behoves us all if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support.
      I did not try to disparage Bad Science or Bad Pharma, just merely to say that there are other sources, and no one text becomes a bible, I have read the bible many times in the past and will not substitute it with other texts.
      Sorry for this long preamble which does not address directly some of the issues Paul has raised. I shall try to do so if I have time later.

    • #53695 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, May 16, 23:53, #53655:

      “Your contention, or inference, that this is a six-of-one and half a dozen of the other does not match up with reality”

      That isn’t my contention; it just takes so long to express everything. Big Pharma only has to distort lots of little bits, because it has by far the larger platform, by far the greater power, a massive team doing genuine research (though out-funded by their marketing divisions), and it even owns publishing platforms. The anti-vaxxers tend to sensationalise, partly because they’re scared, and partly because, unable to afford a massive research output, they instead frame appeals to emotion based on scanty and less rigorous evidence.

      My analogy for this is a bit like a long lever. At one end, much force but little movement, at the other, much movement but little force.

    • #53696 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      SA – “This is the world we live in and we have to accept”

      No we don’t have to accept; Paul Barbara proves that, though I would argue that rejection becomes more effective the better it is targeted.

      “if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support”

      Goldacre’s advice is to check everyone’s data and methods, and be sceptical of interpretations. John Ioannidis is a case in point; his credentials are excellent, but his Stanford study is wrong by an order of magnitude or more.

    • #53709 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Clark
      I did not mean that we have to accept everything but to accept the fact, otherwise I would just be suggesting that activism is futile.
      Yes of course we should be diligent in looking at sources on both sides but quite often the sources from Pharma are well published or at least the science of it is well published. Many drugs are not necessarily discovered initially by big pharma, quite often they wait until something is proved to work and then big pharma is good at scaling it up for production. This is true of many industries and it is well known that university especially in the US are subsidised to do research exactly to feed the big corporations which are generally shy in taking risk by doing basic research and await until discoveries are made. But the tactics of the anti vaccine movement have always seemed dubious and their publications are always sketchy and not peer reviewed. They often rely on sensation headlines and on disgruntled and often discredited scientists like Wakefield and Mikovits. Unfortunately this is more likely to reduce scrutiny by true scientists because of the undesirability of this association.

    • #53718 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, take heed; SA wrote

      “Unfortunately this is more likely to reduce scrutiny by true scientists because of the undesirability of this association”

      That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you about “chemtrails”, Twin Tower demolition theory etc. It’s not just “true scientists”; there are hundreds of millions of critical thinkers in the world. Valid points get besmirched when they’re submerged in bunk.

      SA:

      “quite often the sources from Pharma are well published or at least the science of it is well published.”

      It’s good science, but it’s up to the companies whether they publish or not. Other good science that disadvantages their products is simply never published, hidden behind commercial confidentiality and NDAs.

    • #53731 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 17, 2020 at 18:21
      At present my comments get whisked off into the ether for ‘pre-moderation’; I have a couple which haven’t yet appeared, maybe they won’t.
      Re Chemtrails, I expect you are getting out as much as possible during this nice weather, so check a couple of things out.
      The only Chemtrails I have seen are high-altitude planes flying approx. West to East, and less flying East to West, on parallel courses. In the evenings, under suitable conditions, lots of parallel lines of cloud are visible to both East and West, running approx. N-S (or Vicky Versa) at certain times (around 18.00 – 19.30 in evening) and I believe at certain times in morning.
      This is a rare chance to notice this, because there are very few passengers flying, so very little Civil aircraft (some freight), most of which fly low and don’t leave trails as they have already descended to low altitude to prepare to land.
      Check this out, and if you have an explanation for the few trails formed during the day, and for the multiple old lines in the evening (identical to those under normal conditions pre Covid 19). If they were formed by ordinary civil aircraft, how come we don’t see them flying during the day, yet the trails still appear in late afternoon/evening in a North/South-South/North direction?
      My conclusion is the military planes and planes contracted by them do the spraying over the sea, and they blow over the land later on. How many Chemtrails (or ‘Persistant Contrails’, if you wish) do you see going North/South or Vicky Versa?

    • #53880 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      I’ll look specifically for that Paul. But all I have noticed out of the ordinary is the relative lack of aircraft altogether. I’m under the collation point for Heathrow here, plus I can see Stansted to the north. On clear a day like this I’d expect to see at least fifteen aircraft at any time, half a dozen of them crossing London in a queue heading for Heathrow. But since the covid, it went down to about one every ten minutes, and it has increased a bit in the last week or two.

      I’m enjoying it! It’s blessed quiet. And so’s the main road, the A12, about three miles from here. I used to hear it roaring day and night, but it’s much quieter now.

      I haven’t noticed any parallel cloud lines, and I have been watching the sky. I’ve been getting Venus in the telescope on clear evenings, and I’ve been watching satellites go over because I’ve been looking for Starlink, a ‘procession’ of satellites in a line, but despite the prediction pages I haven’t seen this yet.

      “At present my comments get whisked off into the ether for ‘pre-moderation’”

      Yeah, I think the mods are being stricter. Marginal ideas about scientific issues used to seem not to matter, but now with covid-19 among us, wrong information really can cost lives, and lots of them. It’s important that people respect the social distancing restrictions.

      There’s an irony here in that the tougher the restrictions the sooner they can be gone. Done right, proper restrictions would fix the problem in five weeks. It has been nearly eight weeks now, but Boris’s lot couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery. They are literally making us sick. Is the UK now incapable of manufacturing masks? C’mon! It’s a bit of fabric and some elastic!

      http://www.endcoronavirus.org

    • #53890 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      So it’s 20:15 and I’ve just set up the telescope to look at Venus. I don’t know my cloud types and I’m crap at judging altitude, but here goes.

      It’s pretty clear here, just a bit of possibly stratus to the north. It’s cloudier in the distance over London, maybe cirrus making lines from south-west to north-east. There was a line that may have been a contrail before I saw it cutting across these from south-east to north-west, at a lower altitude, I think, but it’s lost its shape and seems to be becoming a cloud.

      Glorious lack of aircraft; I can’t see one right now. There are no vapour trails above at any height, all around here.

      • #53926 Reply
        Paul Barbara
        Guest

        @ Clark May 19, 2020 at 20:23
        The parallel lines I talked about are old trails, on the horizon to the East and West in certain conditions, occasionally visible to the East in the morning, and visible in the East and West around or just before sunset. They are equidistant parallels (I may have forgot that in previous comment. I’ve seen partial sets of lines in the distance of a dozen or more, but they are not clear enough to photograph.
        Even with the few aircraft and vehicles, there is still enough pollution to blank out the stars – the other evening was clear, yet all I could see was the moon and Venus over London.
        It is well documented by Geoengineering Watch that military planes and their contractors are virtually always spraying trails over the Pacific, quite a way out, parallel to the California coast, which disrupt the normal rain clouds which would normally form.
        They have radar tracking maps showing them.
        If you ever meet a retired pilot (Civil or RAF – an active pilot is less likely to spill the beans) ask them about the trails. Maybe they’ll open up, because they must know what is going on.

    • #53927 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Gates allegedly bribes Nigerian Senate to pass Mandatory Vaccine Law:
      Bill Gates offered House of Reps $10m bribe for speedy passage of compulsory vaccine bill – CUPP alleges‘. (Daily Post).
      ‘…The Coalition of United Political Parties (CUPP), on Monday, alleged that it has intercepted a human intelligence report that the Nigeria House of Representatives leadership was poised to forcefully pass the compulsory vaccine bill without subjecting it to the traditions of legislative proceedings.
      In a statement issued and signed by the spokesperson of the opposition political parties, Barrister Ikenga Imo Ugochinyere and sent to DAILY POST in Abuja on Monday, the body urged lawmakers in the lower chamber to rise against impunity.
      The body in the statement alleged that a sum of $10 million was offered by the American Computer Czar, Bill Gates to influence the speedy passage of the bill without recourse to legislative public hearing, a development they averted as anachronistic, adding that the Speaker, Femi Gbajabiamila should be impeached if he forces the bill on members…’

      Just one case of Gates alleged bribery seeing the light of day – I suspect it is the tip of the iceberg.

    • #53955 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      You will need to translate this, but it does cover the Covid 19 Lockdown pretty well:
      COVID – 19: BIG PHARMA ACTORS BEHIND CONTAINMENT‘.
      ‘…The British government has promoted the concept of an “immunity passport” as a way to loosen draconian containment measures. It is very possible that facial recognition technology dictates who can leave containment and return to work. To obtain a passport, individuals must upload a picture of their face to the application with their identity card (passport or driver’s license). They are then tested to see if they have had the virus and developed immunity. The app will then generate a QR code, which the employer will use to verify identity and immunity before allowing the employee to return to work…’
      Achtung! Show me your papers! I suspect it won’t be too long before the skeptics start to realise that the NWO, One World Government’ (Gulag) was not a Loony Tune Tin-Foil-Hat figment after all.
      ‘… From 2012 to March 2018, Sir Patrick Vallance was President of Research and Development at GSK. He went directly from GSK to his post as chief scientific adviser to the British government…’
      The US ain’t the only one with ‘Revolving Doors’; we may be Uncle Sam’s poodle, but we’re smart, and can learn new tricks.

    • #53972 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Covid-19 could be crushed in five weeks if only we’d all cooperate. With each other, I mean, not with authority. It’s just a virus, the ultimate in parasitism, and we should stamp it out for our common humanity. If we let it run riot we give it hosts to mutate in and evolve, not to mention letting it effectively waterboard a million pensioners for a week until it kills at least half, and that’s just in the UK. Bloody thing probably escaped from a lab; we could crush it and we should.

      Covid-19 is a political litmus test; the most macho, right-wing, racist governments get the highest death tolls – Bolsonaro, Johnson, Trump. Women in charge have handled it best; New Zealand, Germany, Denmark, Iceland, Finland.

    • #54090 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 21, 2020 at 09:52
      They did not contrive to create and unleash Covid – 19 in order for it to be ‘crushed’ in five weeks.
      See ‘VIDEO: The “Lock Step” Simulation Scenario: “A Coronavirus-like Pandemic that Becomes Trigger for Police State Controls”
      It looks to me like a very-well thought out plan, even down to the ‘stolen Coronavirus specimens’ from a Canadian lab, to the building by France of the Wuhan Level 4 Biosecurity lab, and Gates’s organisation $370 million grants to the Wuhan lab.
      The PTB have learnt some since 9/11, so I figure they set out some pretty rock-hard ‘Red Herring’ trails beforehand, a lot stronger than they did in the 9/11 case. They probably even instigated the Chinese experimenting on Coronaviruses in Wuhan.
      But I do not believe the ‘Pandemic’ came from there, I believe it was intentionally brought in by the US Military Contingent to the Wuhan World Military Games, which opened on October 18th 2019, ‘co-incidentally’ on the same day as the Event 201 Coronavirus Pandemic Simulation was held in New York by Gates and cronies.
      This time they want their ‘blame China game’ to stick, unlike their Saudi ‘hijackers’, Pakistani ISI General sending $100,000, ‘magic fireproof Passport’ and ‘Top Gun’ Hani Hanjour narratives.
      Another major step towards the NWO plans for a ‘One World Gulag’. How the Gestapo would have loved a ‘tracking app’.

    • #54095 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      Clark, here in pdf is one of your ‘Bete Noirs’, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, and your Cochrane Review:
      ‘…I have been blamed for causing, through the media, a vaccine scare. In defense of my position and in accordance with the precautionary principle, having reviewed all the available evidence for MMR vaccine safety, I simply recommended a return to single measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines in preference to MMR and encouraged further research. In the NBC interview, it was put to me that I was alone with a few parents in believing that the MMR vaccine was unsafe. I responded by saying that 15 years ago this was, indeed, an unusual opinion held by only a handful of physicians. I was able to say, however, that my position on the deficiencies in the relevant vaccine safety studies have now been reinforced by the systematic analysis of Dr. Thomas Jefferson and colleagues from the Cochrane Collaboration, an internationally respected body that provides independent scientific oversight. They wrote, “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and postmarketing is largely inadequate” (Jefferson, Price, Demicheli, & Bianco, 2003, p. 25). In an interview with Richard Halvorsen concerning his 2007 book The Truth about Vaccines, one of the lead authors of the Cochrane review left no doubt as to his true feelings when he said, “The safety studies of MMR vaccine are crap. They’re the best crap we have but they’re still crap” (Child Health Safety, 2009 ~). With respect to my suggested return to the protection of children with single vaccines, Jefferson and colleagues wrote, “We found limited evidence of safety of MMR compared to its single-component vaccines from low risk of bias studies” (Jefferson et aI., 2003, p. 25). More recently, Dr. Lou Cooper, former head of the American Academy of Pediatrics, made the comment in Newsweek that “There’s been grossly insufficient investment in research on the safety of immunization” (2009 ~), and, to the Institute of Medicine, that “[Vaccine safety] research has been done on the cheap” (Wrangham, n.d. …’
      So Dr. Wakefield doesn’t have horns, after all.

    • #54097 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Clark
      I am so sorry to see that it seems that not all conspiracy theories are equal, some seem to be more equal than others.
      I am not for any sort of censorship but I am surprised to see such a long standing forum continuing with the repetition of all the most outlandish conspiracy theories over and over again, and conflated into one big CT about world government and it seems that you are condoning this. I am truly surprised.

    • #54116 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, do you think it’s right to bullshit?

    • #54117 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark
      Is that how you say you disagree? The PTB lay open their plans way in advance, they hold drills and simulations on the day, yet you still don’t see it?

    • #54128 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      No, I’m saying I can see some stuff that I know to be bullshit, because I know enough background. Now how do I tell you? Because I expect you’ll just dismiss it, or find some way to assume I’m wrong, because that’s what you’ve always done. But it’s sat right there and I know it’s bullshit, so how do I tell you?

    • #54140 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      It now appears they the US was holding ‘simulations’ from January to October 2019:
      New York Times : Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded‘.
      ‘…The outbreak of the respiratory virus began in China and was quickly spread around the world by air travelers, who ran high fevers. In the United States, it was first detected in Chicago, and 47 days later, the World Health Organization declared a pandemic. By then it was too late: 110 million Americans were expected to become ill, leading to 7.7 million hospitalized and 586,000 dead.
      That scenario, code-named “Crimson Contagion” and imagining an influenza pandemic, was simulated by the Trump administration’s Department of Health and Human Services in a series of exercises that ran from last January to August..’
      I sure wish I had a crystal ball like theirs….
      And would you believe it, T’rump does a pirouette:
      ‘…President Trump moved from dismissing the coronavirus as a few cases that would soon be “under control” to his revisionist announcement on Monday that he had known all along that a pandemic was on the way…’

    • #54144 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Are you just going to ignore what I just told you?

    • #54156 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Clark
      You have indulged Paul for too long. He pretended to be hurt and has avoided answering my questions. His methods are clear, he does not answer but bombards you with lots of new links and counter arguments and when you look at the mm and answer him he just moves on to the next conspiracy.

    • #54160 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      SA, yes, that is so. But I know that Paul is a kind person. My thoughts about this are not clear at present; hopefully I’ll have some better idea what to write later.

      Meanwhile, would you discuss something with me? On May 17, 02:49, comment #53661 you wrote:

      “.. I will not accept that bad science and bad pharma are the be all of everything that is going on. I have my own experiences and know what it is all about.”

      and

      “Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children whilst pretending to be concerned about children. They are often connected to ‘natural movement’ and websites that practice quackery and profiteer from alternative medicine.”

      There are two points I’d like to address here. Regarding the second quoted section, such arguments have been highly polarised for a long time and this seems to be the source of the impasse in communication, so regarding the first section, please tell me a bit about your own experience. And I’d be interested anyway.

      What I suspect is that trust is essentially personal, but the modern way of relating has become very impersonal, especially in text communication such as this. So I think that we have to establish interpersonal trust before communication can be effective. Writing that reminded me of some thoughts from the Quaker Advices and Queries 13; “pray that your ministry may arise from deep experience, […] with sensitivity to the needs of others”, and one of the guiding principles at Wikipedia, “assume good faith”.

      Returning to the first section, there is much distrust on both sides, there is genuine care on both sides, and there is profiteering which exploits both sides. Division itself seems to our first obstacle.

    • #54168 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark
      Grow up.

    • #54169 Reply
      SA
      Guest

      Clark
      I am very reluctant to talk about personal matters openly in such a public forum. I have in the past written about some of my personal experiences with regards to the drug thalidomide and a big scandal where a certain drug company profiteered by getting a drug that was manufactured in the 50s licensed for the use of treating myeloma in such a way that with the acquiescence of licensing authorities, they manage to be able to be the sole provider of drug to the NHS even though it was available widely from other sources, at 6 times the price on flimsy basis and the NHS had to fork up the difference. The original research on myeloma and thalidomide was done by many in the field using generic thalidomide manufactured in many labs around the world for very small cost. The bad days of pharma entertaining doctors lavishly are gone but through collusion with the system, they still manage to bribe through providing ‘Educational support’ for the conference circuits, and that helps governments pretend that this is pure education and continuing professional education, which is mandated to continue with your profession, by not providing adequate funding for this activity through official channels. A few years ago government funding for research has also been slowly privatised in such a way that basic scientific research was discouraged, at the expense of what is called ‘translational research’ often in collaboration with industry, targeting research in areas that is suitable for quick realisation of the commercial potential for such research.
      But my attitude is that this is unfortunately the world we live in. There is often no need for conspiracies from big Pharma. They can do what they like and often can produce good medicines and occasionally produce major flops and cock ups. But to target one aspect of the whole world we live in, and to tar professions such as medicine and science with the conspiracy brush is not constructive. Many people have to work within the constraints of the system.
      I of course admire Ben Goldacres work and his two books, but why I said what I did is that it does not begin and end there. In fact if you look at his recent tweets on covid-19, they are a bit restrained to put it mildly.
      This may also give you a flavour of what happened with thalidomide.

    • #54187 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      “to tar professions such as medicine and science with the conspiracy brush is not constructive.”

      I agree. It both causes, and is itself, polarisation of what should be a discussion. That’s why I’m trying to draw the sides together; I’m going after the the root cause, not the symptom. But…

      “I am very reluctant to talk about personal matters openly in such a public forum.”

      Isn’t everyone? That seems to me a big part of the problem. We get all sorts of comments, generally from one ‘side’ or the other, but never with any perspective of the experiences that lead to the motivations behind them. The centre is missing. Instead we stand like massed armies opposed across a battlefield, when we should be sat in the middle, in a circle, raising one finger when we have a point we wish to contribute. As I said before, dividing us is Mammon’s primary technique. With us all fighting each other, Mammon needs no weapons, Mammon just harvests the casualties with a laugh.

      All the technical details in your comment ring true; they seem much like the material in Goldacre’s books. I have been looking at Goldacre’s Twitter stream recently; he was lamenting “lockdown” boredom, but celebrating Opensafely, his and his team’s secure medical data analytics project, which looks like an excellent piece of work.

    • #54188 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, I take it that’s a yes, then? I’d much rather you came and sat in the circle. We will all have to eventually, or perish at each other’s hands.

    • #54190 Reply
      Paul Barbara
      Guest

      @ Clark May 25, 2020 at 15:49
      I’ll happily join in, but let’s keep it civil.
      We are all entitled to our opinion; censorship should not come into this.
      The NWO is hardly a conspiracy nowadays – it seems everyone from the local dog-catcher to the Pope has openly endorsed it.
      And this ‘Pandemic’ fits right in with their agendas, control, RFID (whether by injected chip, or mandatory carrying of a ‘smart-phone’ with an ID app), mandatory (or hard to avoid) vaccinations, push towards cashless society, tracer technology. No wonder Gates and Fauci always have a big smirk on their mugs.

    • #54191 Reply
      Clark
      Guest

      Paul, sorry, I realise now. I wasn’t accusing you of bullshitting. There is other people’s bullshit in what you posted; I’m trying to alert you that you’ve been bullshitted. That’s why I asked whether you object to bullshit. Not everyone does. Some people seem to think that bullshit’s OK so long as it points in their preferred direction, or even if it just points away from what they oppose. Personally I’m for truth, even when it isn’t what I’d prefer. I figure that when we have a problem to solve we have to face it for what it is; we have to solve the actual problem rather than what we’d prefer it to be, or our solution is likely to be irrelevant.

      So I’d like to check where you stand. Do you have a principle against bullshitting as I do, or do you think it can be useful sometimes?

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