Vaccine contaminants and safety


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  • #54936 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    I didn’t see Iain Orr’s clip, but I knew the gist of it. I know about the difference in the UN General Assembly and the Security Council; most noticeable with votes re Israel/Palestine.
    And I’ve been on a few Demos with the Chaggosians.
    ‘..Occasionally something goes wrong, but with so much vaccination, the proportion is small..’
    Well, 50 -100 million deaths in the ‘Spanish Flu’ certainly indicates ‘something going wrong’, but you probably did not check that link.

    #54937 Reply
    SA

    50-100 million deaths in Spanish flu. This rather stupid conspiracy theory comes from Kevin Barry. I shall waste no time reading it but a full analysis of the stupidity of this statement and the conspiracy theory of the ignorant antivaxxers, posing as pseudo scientists can be read here
    More conspiracy theory nonsense being posted in this forum.

    #54939 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    ‘…Big Pharma have major incentives in anti-vax. If the US vaccine court were abolished, all the claims for well established vaccine injuries would have to be fought by the parents, using their own funds versus corporate legal departments; what do you reckon their chances would be?…’
    No, the people would sue together under Class Lawsuits, like they did with Monsanto. That was why Big Pharma instructed their Congressional buddies to come up with the Vaccine Court.
    However hard, it’s easier to score against the corporations than against the government backed by the corporations

    #54944 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, you’re right, I didn’t read it. You’ve sent me on too many wild goose chases already.

    What I want is for you to raise your game to the point where it’s worth following your links. My previous experience indicates that your “crystal ball” is way out of adjustment, but as you don’t know how it works you couldn’t possibly calibrate it.

    #54945 Reply
    Clark

    “the people would sue together under Class Lawsuits”

    With vaccine injury in the one-in-a-million range, there would only be a handful each year.

    #54946 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    MMR Vaccine Caused Autism in Two Children According to Federal Vaccine Court‘.
    ‘…It happened again. The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine. Ryan’s family joins Hannah Poling and at least 85 others who have received judgments for vaccine-induced autism from the VICP. These people aren’t supposed to exist. We are told again and again that vaccines cannot cause autism, vaccines have never caused autism, and vaccines never will cause autism. Except when they do.

    Here is the link to the settlement document.
    Well, if any of you clicked the link, you would get have got:
    ‘Page not found
    The requested page could not be found.
    Howard T. Markey National Courts Building • 717 Madison Place, NW, Washington, DC 20439 • 202-357-6400’
    They don’t like it ‘up ’em’.
    But no sweat, here it is.
    I wonder why they hid the page in the first link, and why no cat seems to have got the MSM’s tongue (though Time Magazine did cover the Poling case)?
    ‘…Time Magazine summed up the relevance of the Poling case in 2008: …(T)here’s no denying that the court’s decision to award damages to the Poling family puts a chink — a question mark — in what had been an unqualified defense of vaccine safety with regard to autism. If Hannah Poling had an underlying condition that made her vulnerable to being harmed by vaccines, it stands to reason that other children might also have such vulnerabilities.”
    Then-director of the Centers for Disease Control Julie Gerberding (who is now President of Merck Vaccines) stated: “The government has made absolutely no statement indicating that vaccines are a cause of autism. This does not represent anything other than a very specific situation and a very sad situation as far as the family of the affected child.”
    (The link to the Time article was nixed, but here is the article.

    The there is this one: ‘Family to Receive $1.5M+ in First-Ever Vaccine-Autism Court Award‘.

    Perhaps this will stop folks from screeching at me time and again that ‘MMR doesn’t cause Autism’. Certainly it doesn’t, not every time. But it can, and it does, especially with Black children.
    I don’t know how these cases got to the Vaccine Court in the first place, because Autism cases are normally barred automatically. I read somewhere that there are 4,800 Autism cases ‘in limbo’.

    #54947 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    ‘No Polio in the Philippines Since 1993, But Mass Polio Vaccination Program Targeted for 500,000 Typhoon Victims Under Age 5’.
    I know you touched on the dangers, but shouldn’t UNICEF and the WHO also be aware of the dangers in the oral Polio vaccine?
    And again, the same in Syria. I mentioned it before, but had forgotten how long Syria had been free of Polio. Their last case was 1999; then 10 cases suddenly appeared, yet 20 million were vaccinated with the Oral Polio vaccine in 2013:
    ‘…While Syria has been reportedly polio free since 1999, the discovery of 10 new cases of polio inside Syria has prompted UNICEF to begin vaccinating over 20 million Syrian children under the age of five with the live oral polio vaccine. The aggressive campaign also targets Syrian children outside of Syria in neighboring countries where numerous refugee camps exist.
    As Al Jazeer is reporting, “We’re never going to know how exactly how it arrived in Syria.” Guesses are that it originated in Pakistan…’
    Yeh, whatever…my guess is it was a deliberate ploy to ‘justify’ the massive Oral Polio vaccination drive, and that the headchoppers or ‘White Helmets’ brought it in – par for the course for them.
    Are UNICEF Live Polio Vaccines Causing Polio Among Syrians? 1.7 Billion Polio Vaccines Purchased by UNICEF

    And will we hear of new Polio cases among Syrian children? Doubtful; we only hear what fits the US/NATO ‘narrative’, and Polio cases after a Western mass vaccination program hardly makes for good propaganda. Same goes for the Philippines.

    #54952 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    Italian Court Rules MMR Vaccine Caused Autism: Why is this story blacked out of the US Media?‘.
    And it includes a 16 minute video of your old friend Dr. Wakefield. I challenge you to watch it, and say you still have the same opinion of him afterwards.
    The truth blazes forth so obviously I find it extremely hard to imagine an ordinary decent person cannot see it as easily as I can.

    #54953 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    A STERILITY DRUG IN FOOD IS HINTED; Biologist Stresses Need to Curb Population Growth‘.
    The article can only be accessed through the NY Times Time Machine, which requires a subscription, but the essence of the article is that Nixon’s Scientific Advisor, Lee DuBridge, advised Nixon that food shipped to Africa should be laced with sterility chemicals.
    I just point this out, because you seem to think it is just a ‘conspiracy theory’ that the PTB wish to cull the human population, by famines, wars, and artificially produced Pandemics.
    At the same time Hitler was killing mentally retarded people and others he despised as useless eaters, Eugenics was popular in high circles in the States. Unfortunately it still is.

    #54958 Reply
    SA

    There is no link whatsoever between vaccination and autism. There is no epidemiological evidence to link the two. There are anecdotes of cases of neurological disease that may be temporally associated with vaccination. To prove that vaccination causes autism a high quality study should show this. There is no such study published.
    On the other hand there is some anecdotal evidence that some children who had reactions to vaccines have been awarded some damages. This is true but the number of cases is small and it is worth analysing these few cases that are used as evidence as to why these awards are made. The body awarding compensation for vaccine associated injuries in the US is called National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program

    Vaccines save lives by preventing disease.
    Most people who get vaccines have no serious problems. Vaccines, like any medicines, can cause side effects, but most are very rare and very mild. Some health problems that follow vaccinations are not caused by vaccines.
    In very rare cases, a vaccine can cause a serious problem, such as a severe allergic reaction.
    In these instances, the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) may provide financial compensation to individuals who file a petition and are found to have been injured by a VICP-covered vaccine. Even in cases in which such a finding is not made, petitioners may receive compensation through a settlement.

    How does the VICP work?
    The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program is a no-fault alternative to the traditional legal system for resolving vaccine injury petitions.
    It was created in the 1980s, after lawsuits against vaccine companies and health care providers threatened to cause vaccine shortages and reduce U.S. vaccination rates, which could have caused a resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases.
    Any individual, of any age, who received a covered vaccine and believes he or she was injured as a result, can file a petition. Parents, legal guardians and legal representatives can file on behalf of children, disabled adults, and individuals who are deceased.

    What is the process?
    An individual files a petition with the U.S. Court of Federal Claims.
    The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services medical staff reviews the petition, determines if it meets the medical criteria for compensation and makes a preliminary recommendation.
    The U.S. Department of Justice develops a report that includes the medical recommendation and legal analysis and submits it to the Court.
    The report is presented to a court-appointed special master, who decides whether the petitioner should be compensated, often after holding a hearing in which both parties can present evidence. If compensation is awarded, the special master determines the amount and type of compensation.
    The Court orders the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services to award compensation. Even if the petition is dismissed, if certain requirements are met, the Court may order the Department to pay attorneys’ fees and costs.
    The special master’s decision may be appealed and petitioners who reject the decision of the court (or withdraw their petitions within certain timelines) may file a claim in civil court against the vaccine company and/or the health care provider who administered the vaccine.

    That the claim is settled does not mean that a direct link is proven.

    What does it mean to be awarded compensation?
    Being awarded compensation for a petition does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused the alleged injury. In fact:
    Approximately 70% of all compensation awarded by the VICP comes as result of a negotiated settlement between the parties in which HHS has not concluded, based upon review of the evidence, that the alleged vaccine(s) caused the alleged injury.
    Attorneys are eligible for reasonable attorneys’ fees, whether or not the petitioner is awarded compensation by the Court, if certain minimal requirements are met. In those circumstances, attorneys are paid by the VICP directly. By statute, attorneys may not charge any other fee, including a contingency fee, for his or her services in representing a petitioner in the VICP.
    What reasons might a petition result in a negotiated settlement?
    Consideration of prior U.S. Court of Federal Claims decisions, both parties decide to minimize risk of loss through settlement
    A desire to minimize the time and expense of litigating a case
    The desire to resolve a petition quickly.

    Two such awards are used by antivaxxers to ‘prove’ that a direct link between a vaccine and autism occurs. In fact when you examine them you find that this is not the case. Take the case of Ryan Mojabi. The judgement can be easily found and is not hidden. Take this analysis here of the case, which quotes the judgement and award.

    Take this analysis here of the case, which quotes the judgement and award.

    In the first case, the parents of Ryan Mojabi, then aged nine, claimed that their son suffered “a severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum Disorder” after receiving several vaccinations between 2003 and 2005, including “more specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations” (see below).In fact, the US court found no link between the MMR vaccination and autism, contrary to what Alternative News Network says.
    The court actually found that Ryan suffered encephalitis (inflammation of the brain) within five to fifteen days of his first MMR vaccination on December 19, 2003. They awarded nearly a million dollars in compensation to Ryan’s family.
    Brain damage is a very rare possible side effect of the MMR vaccine, according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s website.

    So to be clear, what Ryan Mojabi had was encephalitis, not autism, even though the family alleged that he suffered from autism.

    The Emily Lowrie case

    In the second case, the Alternative News Network says a girl named Emily — daughter of Jill Lowrie — “won compensation following vaccine-related brain injury that, once again, involved MMR and resulted in autism”.
    This claim was reported in a Huffington Post article in January 2013. Its author David Kirby said the US vaccine court awarded Emily’s family millions of dollars after they alleged she was “severely injured by a reaction to the DTaP vaccine at 15 months (when MMR, HiB and prevnar were also given)”. He added that Emily “has seizure disorder and PDD-NOS, a form of ASD (autism spectrum disorder)”.
    But the US Department of Health and Human Services (HSS) “did not admit that vaccination caused encephalopathy or autism”, he says.
    The alleged link between the MMR vaccination and autism is added into the Alternative News Network’s article, published four years later. However, the ruling in Emily’s court case does not mention the words ‘MMR’ or ‘autism’. It actually says her mother, Jillian, claims she suffered brain inflammation after receiving a diphtheria, tetanus and a cellular pertussis (DTaP) vaccination.
    Brain inflammation is recorded in fewer than one in 10 million doses, the French medical agency (ANSM) says. “The risk of developing brain inflammation after receiving a vaccine is much lower than the risk of developing it because of natural infections,” ANSM added.
    It’s worth noting that many people with autism do suffer from brain inflammation, as this 2015 study says. But “it would be false to say that the measles vaccination can cause autism because inflammation of the brain can cause autistic spectrum problems,” said professor Kumaran Deiva, head of paediatric neurology at Bicêtre hospital in France.
    “You will not find, except well-established genetic causes, any viral infection which causes autism,” he told AFP. “Inflammation of the brain can cause autistic traits, but not ‘real’ autism, which is characterised by language, behaviour and social interaction difficulties.”

    So can we please discuss facts. If vaccines cause autism as is alleged why are there so few cases suggesting a link between the two? A robust epidemiological study to try and prove this link could be properly made, if someone was genuinely concerned about it. Millions of doses of vaccines are given to children around the world but there are no reports of connection between the two and safety studies have been studied and safety monitored constantly that shows no such links.

    The two cases above proving the link between autism and vaccines do no such thing, they prove nothing. Headlines from antivaccine websites alleging that this is the case prove nothing. Could Paul address this calmly before moving onto other allegations please?

    #54959 Reply
    Clark

    OK Paul, I started fact checking your June 12, 01:38 comment #54946, and didn’t get very far. You cited anti-vax site healthimpactnews.com as follows:

    “The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine”

    So I looked in the settlement document at drive.google.com, your third link, and healthimpactnews.com’s allegation is untrue.

    And this is the problem. I follow link after link after link of yours, and your fact checking is worse than hopeless; it’s deliberately biased. If some site says something you already believe, you just swallow it whole and then serve it up for others, applying none of the suspicion you (falsely) claim to apply to the so-called MSM.

    Life is too short to keep reading recycled bullshit; it’s up to you to check whether any given article is informative or just biased propaganda.

    And you’re still trying to set the agenda, and you’re still pushing your own instance of “More Of”, and you still refuse to engage in a discussion of how we should determine facts. Though mild and passive, these are all forms of aggression.

    You need to learn what propaganda is and how it is done rather than just choosing whose propaganda to serve up.

    Propaganda, Justice, Peace?

    “They don’t like it ‘up ’em’.”

    Not like you’re influenced by the “MSM” at all, is it? “MSM” is such a defeatist term, but just ignore me. After all, if the majority ceased to be “sheeple”, conspiracy theorists would lose their sense of superiority…

    “I wonder why they hid the page in the first link”

    It’s probably been moved to PACER.gov, because all such records are moved to PACER. PACER is an injustice; it requires a login and payment, but moving documents there isn’t the same as hiding them. You again indulge in FUD, which is why you and your ilk are best not taken seriously. But just ignore me; you always do…

    #54962 Reply
    Clark

    SA – “A robust epidemiological study to try and prove this link could be properly made, if someone was genuinely concerned about it”

    That has been done, multiple times, because plenty of researchers have exercised due concern. Every study showed no link. You can find meta-analyses in the Cochrane Library.

    #54963 Reply
    SA

    It is important to distinguish between genuine debate and propaganda. But this is what we have here, an amplification of this propaganda not just by it being posted on a reputable site repeatedly, but by me and you clicking on the links provided thus augmenting their viewing figures. I have tried hard to be fair to Paul but he has very arrogantly avoided answering me on the basis that I am intimidating him. I think if I was it would be up to the mods to admonish me and point out that this is against the rules of the website, but I have not had such a warning.
    Paul is being indulged here to avoid censorship. And both you and I have tried hard to answer his many false claims. I do not know how long this will go on for but having done my bit, I think I will now finally withdraw from this futile discussion which is just prolonging this harmful propaganda.

    #54964 Reply
    SA

    Sorry for this being unclear: I meant the study should be done and published by the antivaxxers to prove this, rather than the sniping and selectively cherry picking. I am of course aware that studies have been done by the main stream establishment doctors but of course these are worthless for the antivaxxers.

    #54965 Reply
    Clark

    “…you seem to think it is just a ‘conspiracy theory’ that the PTB wish to cull the human population…”

    Paul, this statement illustrates that you have paid no attention to what I have written about conspiracy theory.

    However, wasting yet more time on someone who demonstrates obvious contempt for me, I watched the video of Wakefield.

    Now Paul, I have a question for you. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?

    #54967 Reply
    Clark

    SA – “It is important to distinguish between genuine debate and propaganda.”

    I strongly agree; what Paul is doing is promoting propaganda. The trouble is, the majority of people are so immersed in propaganda that they don’t even recognise it. They think ‘propaganda’ means a particular set of beliefs, not a particular set of methods for biasing people’s opinions.

    “…he has […] avoided answering me on the basis that I am intimidating him”

    Conspiracy theorists typically use any excuse they can think of to avoid engagement, because conspiracy theory employs a very weak range of argument methods; promoting suspicion and FUD, “More Of” mud-slinging, quote-mining, insinuation.

    “Sorry for this being unclear”

    No apology necessary. I saw how you’d left that matter and decided I’d best clarify before you were pounced upon with “and that research never will be done because the PTB and the MSM don’t want you to know of their evil scheme that only us fearless truth-tellers can see”. I’ve had considerable experience with conspiracy theorists.

    #54968 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark June 12, 2020 at 11:24
    Thank you for watching the short Dr. Wakefield video.
    You will have noticed that 19 of his papers are still up, only one was withdrawn. You will now be aware of Wakefield’s side of the issue. Appears the withdrawn work has been replicated a number of times, and he has challenged a government accuser to a televised scientific debate, as MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.
    I can only hope that parent’s and their doctor champions win out eventually against Big Pharma and government lies and crimes.
    You have previously said or implied Dr. Wakefield had a ‘conflict of interest’ (I don’t believe you used those precise words, but words to that effect) because he was working with a firm who made the single vaccines. The reality of the situation was Dr. Wakefield has never been an ‘anti-vaxxer’, he always pushed for the single vaccines, but the government agent responsible (he names the perp), when he asked why they had stopped allowing the vaccines to be available as single vaccines instead of three-in-one, said it was because if they continued allowing people to opt for the single shots, it would destroy their MMR Program.
    If you search through my comment, I’m sure you can find some ‘t’ I haven’t crossed, some slight slip to pounce on, but the meaning is clear.
    I would add, it is common practice by government agencies and Corporations, when they award damages, to do so ‘without prejudice’ and with gagging orders.
    I am still trying to get an update on the Kenyan alleged hCG lacing cases, and copies of the lab reports the Catholic Bishops and doctors relied on.

    #54970 Reply
    Dr Edd

    Paul, you could be waiting a long time for the reports from the institutions commissioned by the Kenyan Conference of Catholic Bishops (KCCB) and the Catholic Doctors Association (CDA). Here, as promised, is further information about those “vaccine tests” which claimed to find traces of hCG. (Thank you for your patience.)

    In summary, the tests to which you refer weren’t actually vaccine tests: they were body fluid tests inappropriately applied to vaccine solutions. Those test results did not indicate anywhere near enough quantities of hCG to interfere with the reproductive system in any way. They were subsequently contradicted by (proper) independent vaccine tests by the Kenyan Ministry of Health which found no traces of hCG. The two disputing parties then embarked on a more extensive joint testing programme, which found that the only traces of hCG amongst the 59 samples were in the (opened) vials provided by the bishops’ organisation. They issued a joint statement concluding that the vaccines did not contain hCG and had no effect on reproductive health. Case closed. (Except perhaps for conspiracy-minded individuals who think that all those independent agencies were somehow colluding to deceive the public in order to surreptitiously prevent Kenyan women having babies; even the Catholic bishops must have started conspiring against themselves. Plausibility rating: zero.)

    The four laboratories reportedly were the

    • University of Nairobi College of Health Sciences
    • Lancet Kenya
    • Mediplan Dialysis Centres
    • METR POLIS Star Lab.

    (One source suggests that samples were also tested at another lab in South Africa, though it isn’t mentioned in the reports.)

    These are all credible institutions in their own right, and it would be gauche to accuse them of corruption. However, they didn’t have the specialist equipment required to analyse the active constituents of vaccine samples. Moreover, they weren’t even told what the substances were, so they used tests intended to identify pregnancy hormones in bodily fluids (blood, urine).

    The staff in these laboratories could not however tell whether the samples were vaccines or not, as this was not declared to the testing laboratories by the Catholic Doctors Association. The laboratories tested the samples for hCG using analyzers used for testing human samples like blood and urine for pregnancy. There is no laboratory in Kenya with the capacity to test non-human samples like vaccine for hCG.
    After these rumours were spread, attempts were made to analyse TT vaccines for the presence of hCG. The vaccines were sent to hospital laboratories and tested using pregnancy test kits which are developed for use on serum and urine specimens, and are not appropriate for a vaccine such as TT, which contains a special preservative (merthiolate) and an adjuvant (aluminum salt). As a consequence of using these inappropriate tests, low levels of hCG-like activity were found in some samples of TT vaccine. The laboratories themselves recognised the insignificance of the results, which were below the reliable detection capability of the kits and were due to a nonspecific interaction between the adjuvant or other substances in the vaccine and the test kit. However, these results were misrepresented by the ‘pro-life’ groups with the resulting disruption of immunisation campaigns.
    (Source: Snopes – Is Tetanus Vaccine Spiked with Sterilization Chemicals?)

    These flaws were identified by the Kenyan government, and reported in the Catholic Reporter and the Catholic News Agency.

    There are two main things to note here: (a) the tests were designed for use with bodily fluids, not vaccines, and thus were not fit for purpose; (b) in any case, the trace amounts of hCG implied by the positive test results were clinically insignificant (as noted in the initial lab reports sent back to the bishops).

    The WHO also raised concerns over the methods used by the labs. They noted that while there “is a situation where anti-βhCG antibodies can be produced by the body and that can act as a contraceptive, the levels reported in the independent labs’ results are millions of times less than the amount needed to trigger this contraceptive response”. [my italics]

    They also enumerated a list of concerns and observations on the lab results, including a lack of a control reference, blurred-out sections of the results, and their agreement with one of the lab technicians that the results do not “implicate anything that contravenes the use” of the vaccine. This was reiterated by UNICEF, thus:

    UNICEF Press Officer Rita Ann Wallace obtained responses from Dr. Peter Okoth, Health Specialist, Child Health, UNICEF Kenya.
    As for the assertions made by the bishops, UNICEF’s Dr. Okoth said, “[T]he Catholic Bishops of Kenya are wrong. Their assertions about the tetanus vaccine and hCG are not backed up by evidence. The report from the laboratories that analyzed samples provided by the church shows that the results are invalid. The equipment that was used in the analysis should only be used to analyse human samples such as blood and urine and not vaccines. The samples were not properly identified as required — the laboratories were not informed if these were vaccines, blood or urine samples.”

    In effect, these labs were (quite innocently) testing whether the vaccine-producing industrial equipment was pregnant – which is clearly nonsensical. The tests were never validated for detecting hormone subunits amongst highly concentrated vaccines comprising toxoids, adjuvants and preservatives.

    Similar methodological flaws inspired the original scare story in Mexico, Nicaragua, Tanzania, and the Philippines, as noted in Reproductive Health Matters:

    The vaccines were sent to hospital laboratories and tested using pregnancy test kits which are developed for use on serum and urine specimens, and are not appropriate for a vaccine such as TT (tetanus toxoid), which contains a special preservative (merthiolate) and an adjuvant (aluminum salt).
    When the vaccines were tested in laboratories which used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain hCG.  The results found in six laboratories in five countries on tetanus toxoid vaccines from seven manufacturers are available on request.  The low levels of hCG-like activity seen in some samples were the result of false positive reactions.  In fact, in a laboratory in Hungary, it was shown that the sterile water supply from the local hospital gave a higher false positive level of HCG than did the TT vaccine.

    If even sterile water returns a positive result, then scepticism about the validity of the tests is certainly well justified. But even if hCG had been present in the concentrations implied, it was far, far below anything that could interfere with fertility, and certainly couldn’t cause sterility.

    The Kenyan government was aware of these serious shortcomings in the lab reports, but was concerned enough to order its own tests to verify the integrity of the vaccines nonetheless. When the vaccines were tested in laboratories which used properly validated test systems, the results clearly showed that the vaccines did not contain hCG.

    Moreover, the Catholic agencies misrepresented the results, claiming that they were evidence of a clandestine sterilisation programme. The bishops pressed ahead with their smear campaign against the vaccination programme, subsequently resolving:

    that we shall not waver in calling upon all Kenyans to avoid the tetanus vaccination campaign laced with Beta-HCG, because we are convinced that it is indeed a disguised population control programme.

    Yet the hormone was only alleged (in those unreliable tests) to be present in trace amounts. Nobody ever proposed to inject each woman millions of times to build up a sufficient level of βhCG to trigger an antigenic reaction to it.

    UNICEF waded into the controversy:

    UNICEF Press Officer Rita Ann Wallace obtained responses from Dr. Peter Okoth, Health Specialist, Child Health, UNICEF Kenya.
    Asked whether the tetanus vaccine supplied was laced with the Beta-HCG hormone, Dr. Okoth said it was not and that “all vaccines supplied to countries are procured from WHO pre-qualified suppliers that follow a very rigorous control process.”  In addition, he said, “the vaccines are also registered and monitored by the national regulatory authority, including for any adverse event which might follow immunization.”
    Dr. Okoth said that “UNICEF categorically denies that it is involved in a ‘disguised population control programme,” and that it “definitely” would support having the vaccine tested by independent laboratories.

    Take note that these criticisms weren’t based on assumptions or guesswork, but on the details of the equipment and testing protocols contained in the laboratories’ own test reports. Dr Okoth concluded: “The results shared by the church are invalid.”

    As mentioned in that excerpt, UNICEF decided that the best way to resolve the issue was for the Kenyan Ministry of Health to carry out a joint programme of independent testing, in partnership with the Bishops.

    “UNICEF is ready to support the Government of Kenya to undertake another independent testing for hCG in a reference laboratory. ”

    Great – a joint testing exercise should settle it. So how did that go?

    To resolve the impasse, the Kenyan bishops’ conference and the Ministry of Health formed a joint commission that submitted 59 vials of the vaccine from three locations to two laboratories in December 2014. 
    Three of the vials were found to contain beta HCG. According to a signed Jan 10 statement released by the joint commission, those three vials were “submitted as open vials having previously been tested in other laboratories.” A Jan. 23 lab report commissioned by the joint commission from AgriQuest indicated the three open vials that tested positive were provided by the Kenyan bishops’ conference.
    The joint statement also said, “All the other 56 vials tests were found to be negative for beta HCG, including those with batch numbers corresponding to the three vials that tested positive.”

    Hmmm. The three vials supplied by the bishops tested positive for hCG, but all the others tested negative – including samples from the same batch that the bishops had originally tested. Suspicious or what? The samples supplied by the KCCB were not in hermetically sealed packs from the manufacturer: they had been opened and were therefore subject to contamination – or deliberate tampering.

    Bear in mind this was a collaborative programme administered by representatives from both the Ministry of Health and the KCCB, and the statements above were approved by both parties. The joint statement concluded:

    “Routine tetanus immunization program is safe. Mass immunization campaigns remain a useful public health intervention but quality assurance mechanisms should be applied at all times.” 

    Incidentally, the actual tetanus toxoid vaccine would be a very hostile environment for the hCG hormone, as it doesn’t have the same constitution as the carefully balanced compounds used in Prof. Talwar’s 1994 study into the viability of a βHCG-TT contraceptive, in which the TT was only used as a carrier: it didn’t work as a tetanus vaccine. In a November 2014 statement, the Center for Disease Control (CDC) emphasised:

    “There is not, and never was, human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) in any Tetanus Toxoid (TT) vaccine used for tetanus prevention
    … because of the adjuvants and preservative contained in tetanus toxoid, it is unlikely that HCG could remain active in a vial of TT.” 

    The KCCB’s allegations insinuated that the vaccine caused permanent damage to the reproductive system, effectively rendering the women barren. However, the effects of Prof. Talwar’s hCG-TT contraceptive vaccine were only temporary and reversible; it required regular booster injections to sustain the contraceptive effect. Indeed, it was specifically designed not to cause hormonal imbalances (as with the progesterone-based “contraceptive pill”) and to avoid long-term impact on the reproductive system.

    If that isn’t empirical enough for you, then please note the evidence that the TT vaccine did not affect the pregnancy rate in the women who were vaccinated:

    Dr. Tabu (Head of Immunization at the Ministry of Health) said the same vaccine has been used for 30 years in Kenya. Moreover, “there are women who were vaccinated in October 2013 and March this year who are expectant. Therefore we deny that the vaccines are laced with contraceptives.”

    In their Feb. 13 statement the Kenyan bishops referred to Mexico, Nicaragua and the Philippines, where they said “tetanus vaccination campaigns sponsored and funded by WHO and UNICEF were found to be poisoned with Beta HCG.”

    From the National Catholic Reporter:

    This is an apparent reference to a longstanding rumor that the TT vaccine used in immunization programs has been contaminated by HCG to reduce women’s fertility. The CDC traces the rumor to the 1994 publication of a report on a small clinical trial in India of a contraceptive vaccine made of HCG and TT. The World Health Organization was not connected to the trial. Further, the experimental vaccine used in the trial was created by the researchers for that study and was not related to the vaccine produced by commercial suppliers, the CDC said.

    The CDC said the presence of HCG in TT tests conducted in Mexico and the Philippines in 1994 was clearly shown by subsequent lab tests to be below the limits of accuracy of the test kits used. Six independent labs in five countries ran tests on TT from seven different manufacturers, including those supplying the countries affected directly by the controversy. All the tests were negative for presence of HCG. Global Program for Vaccines and Immunization director Dr. Lee Jong-wook declared in a WHO statement issued in July 1995 that the rumors “are completely false and are totally without any scientific basis,” according to the CDC.

    The Kenyan bishops’ conference did not respond to a request for an interview. A representative of the Kenya Ministry of Health initially offered to secure an interview with the director of medical services, but did not do so.

    So the Kenyan Ministry of Health, the Catholic News Agency, and the National Catholic Reporter are all in on the conspiracy too? You can read the September 2017 announcement from the Kenyan Ministry of Health affirming:

    The Ministry of Health wishes to strongly refute allegations appearing in sections of the press on safety of tetanus toxoid vaccine to women of reproductive age. This is not only unfortunate, but also a baseless pronouncement not backed by any scientific evidence, ill intended to cause fear and despondency among Kenyans in the uptake of much needed essential health services.

    In this regard, the Ministry wishes to clarify as follows:
    1. This is an old matter raised by the Kenya Conference of Catholic Bishops (KCCB) three years ago and has since been resolved through a joint Tetanus vaccine testing committee which comprised of the Ministry of Heath, Academia and the Catholic Church representatives (KCCB).
    2. The joint committee was tasked to sample tetanus toxoid vaccine vials from the contentious batches and qualitatively analyse their safety.
    3. The joint committee found the sampled vaccine vials to be safe and free from any contaminants and recommended the vaccine for use.
    4. Subsequent consultative meetings between the Ministry and KCCB gave a clean bill of health to the tetanus toxoid vaccine with successful vaccination campaigns taking place in 2016 and 2017.

    That’s the last word on it from the KCCB. It’s an old, debunked rumour, which someone seems to have repurposed for nefarious objectives. Bear in mind that Neonatal Tetanus is a very fatal condition responsible for around 215,000 deaths every year worldwide. For whatever reason, you seem determined to keep those numbers high.

    #54986 Reply
    Clark

    “The reality of the situation was […] the government agent […] said it was because if they continued allowing people to opt for the single shots, it would destroy their MMR Program.”

    No, that’s merely Wakefield’s allegation.

    “MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.”

    There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?

    I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?

    I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising. Maybe it’s true that you really have nothing to learn, and your scientific and medical expertise outweighs that of the scientific and medical communities. The chances seem vanishingly small; what do you reckon Paul?

    #55028 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark June 12, 2020 at 10:25

    ‘…OK Paul, I started fact checking your June 12, 01:38 comment #54946, and didn’t get very far. You cited anti-vax site healthimpactnews.com as follows:
    – “The federal Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) has awarded Ryan Mojabi and his family a multi-million dollar settlement for autism as the result of an injury from the Measles Mumps Rubella (MMR) vaccine”
    So I looked in the settlement document at drive.google.com, your third link, and healthimpactnews.com’s allegation is untrue….’

    The Petitioners claimed under ‘encephalopathy’ as otherwise it would not have been accepted for jurisdiction; ‘encephalopathy’ is an accepted Vaccine Table Injury, and that is what they paid out under. But the encephalopathy caused the ‘Autism Syndrome Disorder’, which they had also claimed for. Technically, you are right, and the article should have been more careful in it’s wording, but basically the encephalopathy caused the ASD:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/
    ‘…In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains…’

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_EFkxNKPV_nkM2zzOISfLX666MzolvQJ/preview
    ‘…Petitioners alleged that as a result of “all the vaccinations administered to [Ryan] from March 25, 2003, through February 22, 2005, and more specifically, measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccinations administered to him on December 19, 2003 and May 10, 2004,” Ryan suffered “a severe and debilitating injury to his brain, described as Autism Spectrum Disorder (‘ASD’).” Petition at 1. Petitioners specifically asserted that Ryan “suffered a Vaccine Table Injury, namely, an encephalopathy” as a result of his receipt of the MMR vaccination on December 19, 2003. Id. In the alternative, petitioners asserted that “as a cumulative result of his receipt of each and every vaccination between March 25, 2003 and February 22, 2005, Ryan has suffered . . . neuroimmunologically mediated dysfunctions in the form of asthma and ASD.” Id. at 1-2.

    On June 9, 2011, respondent filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule 4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine, see 42 C.F.R. § 100.3(a)(III)(B), and that this case is appropriate for compensation under the terms of the Vaccine Program. See Resp’t Report, June 1, 2012, at 3-5. This filing followed: (1) the conduct of two fact hearings; (2) petitioners’ determined efforts to obtain medical records from Ryan’s emergent treatment in Tehran; and (3) the issuance of a fact ruling by the undersigned…’

    ASD = Autism Spectrum Disorder.

    The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.

    #55037 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Dr. Edd June 12, 2020 at 13:46

    ‘…Hmmm. The three vials supplied by the bishops tested positive for hCG, but all the others tested negative – including samples from the same batch that the bishops had originally tested. Suspicious or what? The samples supplied by the KCCB were not in hermetically sealed packs from the manufacturer: they had been opened and were therefore subject to contamination – or deliberate tampering…’

    One way of looking at it. The three opened vials that the Bishops supplied were found to be positive. Given the Bishops had struggled to get the first ones for testing,they also would have had difficulty getting the three they submitted. I would like to know how they got them. But the fact they tested positive for hCGt adds to my belief the Bishops and Catholic Doctors were right – the originals were laced with hCG. The alternative, that the Bishops themselves laced them, is to me beyond belief. Cui bono? Gates himself is on record stating vaccines could cut populations down by 10/15%. Even the Devil tells the truth on occasion.
    The Bishops and doctors had a big ZERO to gain from lacing the vaccines, and certainly aren’t ‘anti-vaxxers’. I trust the Kenyan Bishops (although I certainly do not trust all Catholic Bishops), and I do not trust the WHO, UNICEF or the Kenyan Government or their MSM denials.
    I still intend to get the information from the Bishops and the lab reports.
    I am totally convinced that the PTB want to depopulate the African continent; they lust after Africa’s huge resources, but without it’s people.
    I posted this before, but I’ll just add it on here to show there is some truth in this depopulation idea:

    A STERILITY DRUG IN FOOD IS HINTED; Biologist Stresses Need to Curb Population Growth‘.

    The article can only be accessed through the NY Times Time Machine, which requires a subscription, but the essence of the article is that Nixon’s Scientific Advisor, Lee DuBridge, advised Nixon that food shipped to Africa should be laced with sterility chemicals.
    I know my reply is not much against your work, but I want to hear the Bishop’s and Catholic doctor’s side of this, before conceding any ground. And not second-hand.

    #55038 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Dr. Edd
    I should add that of course hermetically sealed batches of Tetanus vaccine tested negative, the manufacturers are hardly going to supply laced vaccines for testing, are they?
    And interestingly, in one of your links, it said how the vaccines were only allowed to be given by government agents, and that they arrived with police escorts, and took any unused vaccines back with them. With the vast health facilities the Church has in Kenya, they are obviously perfectly capable of administering vaccines, and I imagine generally do – that is one of the things I shall ask, when I manage to make some decent contact with them.

    #55045 Reply
    Clark

    “The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.”

    This is stupid. If “all the victims” were caused by MMR causing encephalopathy, then there would be millions of encephalopathies.

    And you’re still setting the agenda. All you ever do is post fallacy after fallacy, and everyone else has to run around correcting you. You haven’t the slightest interest in any evidence that runs counter to your fantasies except to ensure that it never gets considered, by forever avoiding discussion and just posting more fallacies to be refuted. It’s very aggressive and obstructs fair discussion.

    You’re doing exactly what you accuse the “MSM” of doing.

    #55046 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, I often wonder to what extent your sort of belligerence cost us a Corbyn government. Nearly all your stuff comes off right-wing sites, but that never makes you pause to think. You have the likes of me and SA working damn hard to try help you overcome your error, but you treat us as if we’re gullible idiots.

    #55047 Reply
    Clark

    I REPEAT:

    “MSM don’t allow him a chance to rebut the slurs on him and his work.”

    There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?

    I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?

    I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising.

    #55048 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:36

    ‘…I often wonder to what extent your sort of belligerence cost us a Corbyn government…’

    Yes, I understand, you clearly have problems thinking logically. Happens to us all eventually, but on this occasion I’m happy to be in a position to set you straight – it wasn’t me or the likes of me who scuppered Corbyn, it was a smear campaign organised by you-know-who and gleefully amplified and augmented by the MSM, and by Right-wing traitors in the Labour Party intent on bringing him down, and by electoral fraud. The last is difficult to prove, but glaringly obvious to smart folk like me, even without consulting my crystal ball.
    The MSM, ‘Security Services’, armed forces, IDOX, HM Government and ‘Foreign Powers’ were all ranged against him; the ‘will’ was certainly there, and the opportunity in the IDOX Tory company largely controlling processing of the votes, with little chance of any fraud coming to light because of so many agencies would be ‘looking the other way’. Cui Bono?
    Sure, there’s a lot of speculation there, but that’s how I reckon the completely unexpected ‘Landslide’ was managed.
    However flimsy you might find my explanation, it’s a darn sight more logical than yours.
    But that is par for the course.

    #55052 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:36

    ‘…There’s a reason for that, but it takes a bit of thought. Do you have any interest in this? Or would you rather reflexively assume the hand of an overarching conspiracy?..’

    Yes, I think it should be pretty obvious to a ten year old that I have an interest in the vaccine debate: I did not believe such a question required or deserved a response.
    Yes, as you are aware, I instinctively suspect a conspiracy in any skulduggery, not necessarily ‘overarching’ but on a ‘need to know’ basis.

    ‘…I asked you a question Paul. Of what relevance is my opinion of Wakefield to any scientific matter?
    I keep asking questions and you keep ignoring them, so my impression is that you are avoiding debate and instead evangelising.’

    I avoided your question? I asked you for your opinion of Wakefield after watching his interview; instead of telling me, you fire off a question to me. So you didn’t answer my question. It’s OK for you to do it, but heinous for me.
    But, here goes: I asked you to watch the short video interview, and then tell me your opinion of Wakefield, because many people, including myself, can make a pretty sound judgement of watching someone’s interview, as to their character and if they appear to be telling the truth. Your answer would provide have me with a more balanced idea of you rather than him.
    Yes, of course I am evangelising. It is incumbent on me, as a Christian and as a caring human being, to do my best to spread the truth as I know it re what can be causing life-long distressful illnesses, sometimes completely ruining lives or even causing death, to babies and young children.
    I assume you are trying to do the same, it’s just you believe the risk of adverse effects is worth the alleged ‘benefits’, and I don’t.
    All that I have written here should have been plain to you in the first place – why waste your and my time?

    #55062 Reply
    Clark

    “a smear campaign organised by you-know-who and gleefully amplified and augmented by the MSM, and by Right-wing traitors in the Labour Party intent on bringing him down”

    Yes, I know all that, except no, I want you to spell out “you-know-who”.

    The thing is, smear campaigns need a grain of truth at their core, or they’re easily seen to be fantasies. You and your ilk provided that grain, just as the corruption of the pharmaceutical companies and collusion of government regulators provide the grain at the heart of all the bullshit you promote.

    Two wrongs do NOT make a right, and your promotion of alt-propaganda is not justified by the propaganda you’re opposing. It takes two to tango and it’s time you deprived your opposite number of a partner.

    “I asked you to watch the short video interview, and then tell me your opinion of Wakefield, because many people, including myself, can make a pretty sound judgement of watching someone’s interview, as to their character and if they appear to be telling the truth.

    Wakefield’s character and honesty have ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING upon the SCIENTIFIC question of whether MMR causes autism. Scientific questions are answered by EVIDENCE, not by trust in some authority. I hoped you’d at least get that much from Bad Science, but I seem to have overestimated you.

    #55063 Reply
    Dr Edd

    @ Paul Barbara, 12:31

    Andrew Wakefield is a very engaging speaker and the case he outlines in that video could seem very convincing to anyone with little knowledge of the medical science or historical background. But the interview comprises mostly counterclaims, challenges to his critics, and indignant bluster – and there’s a great deal of relevant information on the studies that he didn’t mention.

    Here’s an alternative short video from the Khan Academy which sets out the problems with his research in simple terms, with clearly drawn diagrams — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gpw_Deth8

    In part 2, you’ll find the alternative motives for his claims, and the story of how and why he was struck off the GMC register — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGb9m1dbNdM

    Enjoy! 🙂

    #55073 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    ‘…Yes, I know all that, except no, I want you to spell out “you-know-who”..?
    Yeh, and I want to marry a millionairess.
    O reflection, you may be right that it was me who scuppered Jeremy Corbyn’s rightful place as our Prime Minister. I say that because I have just heard he has put out a contract on me….

    #55076 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, I hope you’ve had a good sleep after supporting the Black Lives Matter protesters yesterday. It’s Sunday, the day on which we should reflect upon how we can each best serve what’s good, so I hope you’ll again consider what I wrote earlier about opposing sides having dependence upon each other – action and reaction.

    #55102 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark June 13, 2020 at 11:01
    ‘…– “The Vaccine Court avoids the ‘autism’ diagnosis like the plague, not because they are don’t know it can be caused by vaccines, but because of the immense cost of compensating all the victims.”
    This is stupid. If “all the victims” were caused by MMR causing encephalopathy, then there would be millions of encephalopathies…’
    Nothing ‘stupid’ about it, if the following studies referred to are correct – perfect sense, in fact:
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4717322/
    ‘…In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains…’

    #55117 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, I beg and plead. We need a discussion about how we determine things.

    There are more scientific papers released each day than any one person can simply read, let alone understand, or follow the included citations. It would take you and I years of study just to become conversant with the background of research into autism. You want me to read that paper, out of the thousands of relevant papers, but on the other hand you have consistently neglected counter-evidence presented on this thread, and forged on ahead thereby omitting discussion of it.

    This is advocacy, not investigation.

    Please tell me, how did you come by that particular paper?

    #55118 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    ‘…Please tell me, how did you come by that particular paper?…’
    It’s on the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) website; as you will note, I gave the link where I found it above.
    To save you looking it up:
    ‘…Relevance of Neuroinflammation and Encephalitis in Autism
    Janet K. Kern,1,* David A. Geier,1 Lisa K. Sykes,2 and Mark R. Geier1
    Author information Article notes Copyright and License information Disclaimer
    This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.
    Go to:
    Abstract
    In recent years, many studies indicate that children with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis have brain pathology suggestive of ongoing neuroinflammation or encephalitis in different regions of their brains. Evidence of neuroinflammation or encephalitis in ASD includes: microglial and astrocytic activation, a unique and elevated proinflammatory profile of cytokines, and aberrant expression of nuclear factor kappa-light-chain-enhancer of activated B cells. A conservative estimate based on the research suggests that at least 69% of individuals with an ASD diagnosis have microglial activation or neuroinflammation. Encephalitis, which is defined as inflammation of the brain, is medical diagnosis code G04.90 in the International Classification of Disease, 10th revision; however, children with an ASD diagnosis are not generally assessed for a possible medical diagnosis of encephalitis. This is unfortunate because if a child with ASD has neuroinflammation, then treating the underlying brain inflammation could lead to improved outcomes. The purpose of this review of the literature is to examine the evidence of neuroinflammation/encephalitis in those with an ASD diagnosis and to address how a medical diagnosis of encephalitis, when appropriate, could benefit these children by driving more immediate and targeted treatments…’
    Seems short and sweet to me, not too complicated, even for me (apart from the long scientific words!)….

    #55119 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Dr Edd June 13, 2020 at 15:54
    I did reply to you, but somehow it has disappeared. I can’t imagine why the Mods would have removed it, so I probably messed up by clicking the wrong button.
    Basically those two videos are pretty damning, but I will hold off judging till I hear Dr. Wakefield’s defence. His offer to debate the issue live on TV will not be taken up by his government tormentor, I’m sure, so I’ll wait till Dr. Wakefield replies as I believe he intends to online, as he is blocked by the MSM (as they do to our host).

    #55120 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, you’ve ignored me AGAIN.

    Really this “discussion” is becoming too frustrating to tolerate.

    #55125 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark
    You do go on…I did of course reply to you, but as the information was rather embarrassing to your position, you didn’t notice it:
    ‘… A conservative estimate based on the research suggests that at least 69% of individuals with an ASD diagnosis have microglial activation or neuroinflammation. Encephalitis, which is defined as inflammation of the brain, is medical diagnosis code G04.90 in the International Classification of Disease, 10th revision; however, children with an ASD diagnosis are not generally assessed for a possible medical diagnosis of encephalitis. This is unfortunate because if a child with ASD has neuroinflammation, then treating the underlying brain inflammation could lead to improved outcomes..’
    I’m pretty sure you have twigged to the essence of the above information – ‘…at least 69% of individuals with an ASD diagnosis have microglial activation or neuroinflammation. Encephalitis, which is defined as inflammation of the brain, is medical diagnosis code G04.90 in the International Classification of Disease, 10th revision…’. So, as encephalopathy is accepted as a Table disease for Vaccine Court purposes, as it is actually warned as a possible side effect of the MMR vaccine on the informayion leafleyt that comes with the vaccines (but which are rarely given to the parents of the child having the injection), then saying the MMR vaccination cannot cause Encephalopathy/Autism is total rubbish. But still folks parrot it.

    If you expect me to allow you to tell me how to think, or how to put my arguments, I’m afraid your barking up a gum tree.

    #55130 Reply
    Clark

    But Paul, you effectively ARE telling me what to think, by constantly setting the agenda, and absolutely refusing to engage in fair debate.

    Additionally, you’re pretending to scientific expertise that you do not possess. There is absolutely no way that someone who was utterly naive about Dane Wigington’s hoax with the stroboscopic effect has the background knowledge and critical thinking skills necessary to interpret the significance of that paper.

    And I do not believe that you are being openly honest with me. You wrote:

    “It’s on the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) website; as you will note, I gave the link where I found it above.

    There are 6.2 million papers in that library, PubMed Central. You just “found” it there, did you? I don’t believe you. So again I’m asking you to be honest, and to get down off your high horse and treat me as your equal.

    #55131 Reply
    Clark

    If you were reading papers like that all the time Paul, it seems very odd that you didn’t even finish Bad Science.

    #55133 Reply
    Clark

    The truth blazes forth so obviously I find it extremely hard to imagine an ordinary decent person cannot see it as easily as I can.

    Yes, I understand, you clearly have problems thinking logically.

    I’m happy to be in a position to set you straight..

    glaringly obvious to smart folk like me,

    However flimsy you might find my explanation, it’s a darn sight more logical than yours. But that is par for the course.

    Yes, I think it should be pretty obvious to a ten year old that I have an interest in the vaccine debate

    Yeh, and I want to marry a millionairess.

    You do go on…

    If you expect me to allow you to tell me how to think, or how to put my arguments, I’m afraid your barking up a gum tree.

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