Vaccine contaminants and safety


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  • #53681 Reply
    Clark

      Paul and SA, I have now written to both of you. I ask you each to also read the comments that I have written to the other. Due to the strain on me I need you to both see that I am not taking the other’s side, which is the impression you will probably get if you only read the comment I addressed to you. If the tension increases too much I will have to drop out before I break, and my attempts at unification will go to waste.

      Division itself is our problem. No one here is an enemy.

      #53688 Reply
      Paul Barbara

        @ Clark May 17, 2020 at 11:03
        I understand the point about time – I’m also hamstrung by that. In my case, it is my lack of energy and constant tiredness that has me having to take naps at all times of the day.
        Couple of points – we actually have only met once, when Craig was at the High Court.
        We were about to meet again at the XR Demos when circumstances blocked that meeting. We’ll make it another time.
        Re Judy Mikovits’ paper being ‘withdrawn’, I think it was withdrawn by the magazine or wherever it was published, not by Mikovits. I don’t really know anything about that aspect, but I do suspect if she found mouse viruses in a vaccine that she was right – mice have been used in creating deadly pathogens since at least the early ’60’s (and are still used to create vaccines), when they and monkeys were used to create a virulent fast-acting cancer that was created to infect Castro; it even involved the construction of an ‘atom-smasher’ (I forget the scientific name) which was dismantled after it malfunctioned and almost killed a doctor, who was subsequently murdered.
        I have watched her video, ‘Plandemic’, and I believe her version of events rather than the host of ‘demonisers’. Good news (from my point of view) is she now has a #1 best-seller on the market. And in ‘Plandemic’, she categorically denies being an ‘anti-vaxxer’.

        #53690 Reply
        SA

          Clark
          Thank you for attempting to address both our concerns. As you say answering in a satisfactory way entails time and research and that is useful if these efforts are acknowledged. I would and have sometimes apologised if I have made a mistake but what is frustrating is when you have done some background research and found some reasons to explain some claims, is that the responders, in this case Paul, does not address the questions but goes on to either add more claims of a different kind, or ignores the answers all together. That makes me think that someone is debating from a fixed position and therefore it would be impossible to change this fixed view. But as you have yourself said before, we bother to do the research and to answer not necessarily to try and change the responders mind, but to counter their arguments as there are many readers of this blog, who may be otherwise misled.
          There are general principles: we live in a neoliberal capitalist society and ever since Eisenhower coined the phrase, the Military Industrial Complex, we are fully aware that all big corporations have one overriding aim, making money for the shareholders above all else. But they do not do that by just ripping you off, that belongs to the middle ages with robber princes. The success of capitalism has been that not only are these products excellent products, but that they become desirable and essential to the style of life that has become adapted (or corrupted) to these items. So to make a lot of money corporations have to be highly successful, nobody will make money out of products that are rubbish or harmful (except for the arms industry, but the harm is done to others, in the name of protecting us). But capitalism has developed ways of making enterprises more successful than they should be by the regulatory and political capture, the revolving door, legal dominance and formation of monopolies and cartels. This is the world we live in and we have to accept. But it is a whole integrated system and is difficult to fight by trying to pick issues that divert from the real issues and divide between us, as you say. In the case of big Pharma, as in the case of banking and as in the case of the petroleum industry and automobile industry, there are sharp practices and major failures. The fact the VW fiddled their emission figures and the fact that the banks have played loose with our money, does not mean that we should so mistrust everything to do with banks and motor cars and revert to live in caves. This is were I find the antivaccine movement most wanting. Of course there are historic issues with vaccination and of course there are issues with how drugs are licensed, but the anti vaccine movement appear to live in a time warp and quite often their methodology is dubious. As you pointed out yourself, Wakefield, who started all this may have been sponsored by some insurance companies. So it behoves us all if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support.
          I did not try to disparage Bad Science or Bad Pharma, just merely to say that there are other sources, and no one text becomes a bible, I have read the bible many times in the past and will not substitute it with other texts.
          Sorry for this long preamble which does not address directly some of the issues Paul has raised. I shall try to do so if I have time later.

          #53695 Reply
          Clark

            Paul, May 16, 23:53, #53655:

            “Your contention, or inference, that this is a six-of-one and half a dozen of the other does not match up with reality”

            That isn’t my contention; it just takes so long to express everything. Big Pharma only has to distort lots of little bits, because it has by far the larger platform, by far the greater power, a massive team doing genuine research (though out-funded by their marketing divisions), and it even owns publishing platforms. The anti-vaxxers tend to sensationalise, partly because they’re scared, and partly because, unable to afford a massive research output, they instead frame appeals to emotion based on scanty and less rigorous evidence.

            My analogy for this is a bit like a long lever. At one end, much force but little movement, at the other, much movement but little force.

            • This reply was modified 4 years ago by modbot.
            #53696 Reply
            Clark

              SA – “This is the world we live in and we have to accept”

              No we don’t have to accept; Paul Barbara proves that, though I would argue that rejection becomes more effective the better it is targeted.

              “if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support”

              Goldacre’s advice is to check everyone’s data and methods, and be sceptical of interpretations. John Ioannidis is a case in point; his credentials are excellent, but his Stanford study is wrong by an order of magnitude or more.

              • This reply was modified 4 years ago by modbot.
              #53709 Reply
              SA

                Clark
                I did not mean that we have to accept everything but to accept the fact, otherwise I would just be suggesting that activism is futile.
                Yes of course we should be diligent in looking at sources on both sides but quite often the sources from Pharma are well published or at least the science of it is well published. Many drugs are not necessarily discovered initially by big pharma, quite often they wait until something is proved to work and then big pharma is good at scaling it up for production. This is true of many industries and it is well known that university especially in the US are subsidised to do research exactly to feed the big corporations which are generally shy in taking risk by doing basic research and await until discoveries are made. But the tactics of the anti vaccine movement have always seemed dubious and their publications are always sketchy and not peer reviewed. They often rely on sensation headlines and on disgruntled and often discredited scientists like Wakefield and Mikovits. Unfortunately this is more likely to reduce scrutiny by true scientists because of the undesirability of this association.

                #53718 Reply
                Clark

                  Paul, take heed; SA wrote

                  “Unfortunately this is more likely to reduce scrutiny by true scientists because of the undesirability of this association”

                  That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to tell you about “chemtrails”, Twin Tower demolition theory etc. It’s not just “true scientists”; there are hundreds of millions of critical thinkers in the world. Valid points get besmirched when they’re submerged in bunk.

                  SA:

                  “quite often the sources from Pharma are well published or at least the science of it is well published.”

                  It’s good science, but it’s up to the companies whether they publish or not. Other good science that disadvantages their products is simply never published, hidden behind commercial confidentiality and NDAs.

                  #53731 Reply
                  Paul Barbara

                    @ Clark May 17, 2020 at 18:21
                    At present my comments get whisked off into the ether for ‘pre-moderation’; I have a couple which haven’t yet appeared, maybe they won’t.
                    Re Chemtrails, I expect you are getting out as much as possible during this nice weather, so check a couple of things out.
                    The only Chemtrails I have seen are high-altitude planes flying approx. West to East, and less flying East to West, on parallel courses. In the evenings, under suitable conditions, lots of parallel lines of cloud are visible to both East and West, running approx. N-S (or Vicky Versa) at certain times (around 18.00 – 19.30 in evening) and I believe at certain times in morning.
                    This is a rare chance to notice this, because there are very few passengers flying, so very little Civil aircraft (some freight), most of which fly low and don’t leave trails as they have already descended to low altitude to prepare to land.
                    Check this out, and if you have an explanation for the few trails formed during the day, and for the multiple old lines in the evening (identical to those under normal conditions pre Covid 19). If they were formed by ordinary civil aircraft, how come we don’t see them flying during the day, yet the trails still appear in late afternoon/evening in a North/South-South/North direction?
                    My conclusion is the military planes and planes contracted by them do the spraying over the sea, and they blow over the land later on. How many Chemtrails (or ‘Persistant Contrails’, if you wish) do you see going North/South or Vicky Versa?

                    #53880 Reply
                    Clark

                      I’ll look specifically for that Paul. But all I have noticed out of the ordinary is the relative lack of aircraft altogether. I’m under the collation point for Heathrow here, plus I can see Stansted to the north. On clear a day like this I’d expect to see at least fifteen aircraft at any time, half a dozen of them crossing London in a queue heading for Heathrow. But since the covid, it went down to about one every ten minutes, and it has increased a bit in the last week or two.

                      I’m enjoying it! It’s blessed quiet. And so’s the main road, the A12, about three miles from here. I used to hear it roaring day and night, but it’s much quieter now.

                      I haven’t noticed any parallel cloud lines, and I have been watching the sky. I’ve been getting Venus in the telescope on clear evenings, and I’ve been watching satellites go over because I’ve been looking for Starlink, a ‘procession’ of satellites in a line, but despite the prediction pages I haven’t seen this yet.

                      “At present my comments get whisked off into the ether for ‘pre-moderation’”

                      Yeah, I think the mods are being stricter. Marginal ideas about scientific issues used to seem not to matter, but now with covid-19 among us, wrong information really can cost lives, and lots of them. It’s important that people respect the social distancing restrictions.

                      There’s an irony here in that the tougher the restrictions the sooner they can be gone. Done right, proper restrictions would fix the problem in five weeks. It has been nearly eight weeks now, but Boris’s lot couldn’t organise a piss-up in a brewery. They are literally making us sick. Is the UK now incapable of manufacturing masks? C’mon! It’s a bit of fabric and some elastic!

                      http://www.endcoronavirus.org

                      #53890 Reply
                      Clark

                        So it’s 20:15 and I’ve just set up the telescope to look at Venus. I don’t know my cloud types and I’m crap at judging altitude, but here goes.

                        It’s pretty clear here, just a bit of possibly stratus to the north. It’s cloudier in the distance over London, maybe cirrus making lines from south-west to north-east. There was a line that may have been a contrail before I saw it cutting across these from south-east to north-west, at a lower altitude, I think, but it’s lost its shape and seems to be becoming a cloud.

                        Glorious lack of aircraft; I can’t see one right now. There are no vapour trails above at any height, all around here.

                        #53926 Reply
                        Paul Barbara

                          @ Clark May 19, 2020 at 20:23
                          The parallel lines I talked about are old trails, on the horizon to the East and West in certain conditions, occasionally visible to the East in the morning, and visible in the East and West around or just before sunset. They are equidistant parallels (I may have forgot that in previous comment. I’ve seen partial sets of lines in the distance of a dozen or more, but they are not clear enough to photograph.
                          Even with the few aircraft and vehicles, there is still enough pollution to blank out the stars – the other evening was clear, yet all I could see was the moon and Venus over London.
                          It is well documented by Geoengineering Watch that military planes and their contractors are virtually always spraying trails over the Pacific, quite a way out, parallel to the California coast, which disrupt the normal rain clouds which would normally form.
                          They have radar tracking maps showing them.
                          If you ever meet a retired pilot (Civil or RAF – an active pilot is less likely to spill the beans) ask them about the trails. Maybe they’ll open up, because they must know what is going on.

                          #53927 Reply
                          Paul Barbara

                            Gates allegedly bribes Nigerian Senate to pass Mandatory Vaccine Law:
                            Bill Gates offered House of Reps $10m bribe for speedy passage of compulsory vaccine bill – CUPP alleges‘. (Daily Post).
                            ‘…The Coalition of United Political Parties (CUPP), on Monday, alleged that it has intercepted a human intelligence report that the Nigeria House of Representatives leadership was poised to forcefully pass the compulsory vaccine bill without subjecting it to the traditions of legislative proceedings.
                            In a statement issued and signed by the spokesperson of the opposition political parties, Barrister Ikenga Imo Ugochinyere and sent to DAILY POST in Abuja on Monday, the body urged lawmakers in the lower chamber to rise against impunity.
                            The body in the statement alleged that a sum of $10 million was offered by the American Computer Czar, Bill Gates to influence the speedy passage of the bill without recourse to legislative public hearing, a development they averted as anachronistic, adding that the Speaker, Femi Gbajabiamila should be impeached if he forces the bill on members…’

                            Just one case of Gates alleged bribery seeing the light of day – I suspect it is the tip of the iceberg.

                            #53955 Reply
                            Paul Barbara

                              You will need to translate this, but it does cover the Covid 19 Lockdown pretty well:
                              COVID – 19: BIG PHARMA ACTORS BEHIND CONTAINMENT‘.
                              ‘…The British government has promoted the concept of an “immunity passport” as a way to loosen draconian containment measures. It is very possible that facial recognition technology dictates who can leave containment and return to work. To obtain a passport, individuals must upload a picture of their face to the application with their identity card (passport or driver’s license). They are then tested to see if they have had the virus and developed immunity. The app will then generate a QR code, which the employer will use to verify identity and immunity before allowing the employee to return to work…’
                              Achtung! Show me your papers! I suspect it won’t be too long before the skeptics start to realise that the NWO, One World Government’ (Gulag) was not a Loony Tune Tin-Foil-Hat figment after all.
                              ‘… From 2012 to March 2018, Sir Patrick Vallance was President of Research and Development at GSK. He went directly from GSK to his post as chief scientific adviser to the British government…’
                              The US ain’t the only one with ‘Revolving Doors’; we may be Uncle Sam’s poodle, but we’re smart, and can learn new tricks.

                              #53972 Reply
                              Clark

                                Covid-19 could be crushed in five weeks if only we’d all cooperate. With each other, I mean, not with authority. It’s just a virus, the ultimate in parasitism, and we should stamp it out for our common humanity. If we let it run riot we give it hosts to mutate in and evolve, not to mention letting it effectively waterboard a million pensioners for a week until it kills at least half, and that’s just in the UK. Bloody thing probably escaped from a lab; we could crush it and we should.

                                Covid-19 is a political litmus test; the most macho, right-wing, racist governments get the highest death tolls – Bolsonaro, Johnson, Trump. Women in charge have handled it best; New Zealand, Germany, Denmark, Iceland, Finland.

                                #54090 Reply
                                Paul Barbara

                                  @ Clark May 21, 2020 at 09:52
                                  They did not contrive to create and unleash Covid – 19 in order for it to be ‘crushed’ in five weeks.
                                  See ‘VIDEO: The “Lock Step” Simulation Scenario: “A Coronavirus-like Pandemic that Becomes Trigger for Police State Controls”
                                  It looks to me like a very-well thought out plan, even down to the ‘stolen Coronavirus specimens’ from a Canadian lab, to the building by France of the Wuhan Level 4 Biosecurity lab, and Gates’s organisation $370 million grants to the Wuhan lab.
                                  The PTB have learnt some since 9/11, so I figure they set out some pretty rock-hard ‘Red Herring’ trails beforehand, a lot stronger than they did in the 9/11 case. They probably even instigated the Chinese experimenting on Coronaviruses in Wuhan.
                                  But I do not believe the ‘Pandemic’ came from there, I believe it was intentionally brought in by the US Military Contingent to the Wuhan World Military Games, which opened on October 18th 2019, ‘co-incidentally’ on the same day as the Event 201 Coronavirus Pandemic Simulation was held in New York by Gates and cronies.
                                  This time they want their ‘blame China game’ to stick, unlike their Saudi ‘hijackers’, Pakistani ISI General sending $100,000, ‘magic fireproof Passport’ and ‘Top Gun’ Hani Hanjour narratives.
                                  Another major step towards the NWO plans for a ‘One World Gulag’. How the Gestapo would have loved a ‘tracking app’.

                                  #54095 Reply
                                  Paul Barbara

                                    Clark, here in pdf is one of your ‘Bete Noirs’, Dr. Andrew Wakefield, and your Cochrane Review:
                                    ‘…I have been blamed for causing, through the media, a vaccine scare. In defense of my position and in accordance with the precautionary principle, having reviewed all the available evidence for MMR vaccine safety, I simply recommended a return to single measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines in preference to MMR and encouraged further research. In the NBC interview, it was put to me that I was alone with a few parents in believing that the MMR vaccine was unsafe. I responded by saying that 15 years ago this was, indeed, an unusual opinion held by only a handful of physicians. I was able to say, however, that my position on the deficiencies in the relevant vaccine safety studies have now been reinforced by the systematic analysis of Dr. Thomas Jefferson and colleagues from the Cochrane Collaboration, an internationally respected body that provides independent scientific oversight. They wrote, “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre- and postmarketing is largely inadequate” (Jefferson, Price, Demicheli, & Bianco, 2003, p. 25). In an interview with Richard Halvorsen concerning his 2007 book The Truth about Vaccines, one of the lead authors of the Cochrane review left no doubt as to his true feelings when he said, “The safety studies of MMR vaccine are crap. They’re the best crap we have but they’re still crap” (Child Health Safety, 2009 ~). With respect to my suggested return to the protection of children with single vaccines, Jefferson and colleagues wrote, “We found limited evidence of safety of MMR compared to its single-component vaccines from low risk of bias studies” (Jefferson et aI., 2003, p. 25). More recently, Dr. Lou Cooper, former head of the American Academy of Pediatrics, made the comment in Newsweek that “There’s been grossly insufficient investment in research on the safety of immunization” (2009 ~), and, to the Institute of Medicine, that “[Vaccine safety] research has been done on the cheap” (Wrangham, n.d. …’
                                    So Dr. Wakefield doesn’t have horns, after all.

                                    #54097 Reply
                                    SA

                                      Clark
                                      I am so sorry to see that it seems that not all conspiracy theories are equal, some seem to be more equal than others.
                                      I am not for any sort of censorship but I am surprised to see such a long standing forum continuing with the repetition of all the most outlandish conspiracy theories over and over again, and conflated into one big CT about world government and it seems that you are condoning this. I am truly surprised.

                                      #54116 Reply
                                      Clark

                                        Paul, do you think it’s right to bullshit?

                                        #54117 Reply
                                        Paul Barbara

                                          @ Clark
                                          Is that how you say you disagree? The PTB lay open their plans way in advance, they hold drills and simulations on the day, yet you still don’t see it?

                                          #54128 Reply
                                          Clark

                                            No, I’m saying I can see some stuff that I know to be bullshit, because I know enough background. Now how do I tell you? Because I expect you’ll just dismiss it, or find some way to assume I’m wrong, because that’s what you’ve always done. But it’s sat right there and I know it’s bullshit, so how do I tell you?

                                            #54140 Reply
                                            Paul Barbara

                                              It now appears they the US was holding ‘simulations’ from January to October 2019:
                                              New York Times : Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded‘.
                                              ‘…The outbreak of the respiratory virus began in China and was quickly spread around the world by air travelers, who ran high fevers. In the United States, it was first detected in Chicago, and 47 days later, the World Health Organization declared a pandemic. By then it was too late: 110 million Americans were expected to become ill, leading to 7.7 million hospitalized and 586,000 dead.
                                              That scenario, code-named “Crimson Contagion” and imagining an influenza pandemic, was simulated by the Trump administration’s Department of Health and Human Services in a series of exercises that ran from last January to August..’
                                              I sure wish I had a crystal ball like theirs….
                                              And would you believe it, T’rump does a pirouette:
                                              ‘…President Trump moved from dismissing the coronavirus as a few cases that would soon be “under control” to his revisionist announcement on Monday that he had known all along that a pandemic was on the way…’

                                              #54144 Reply
                                              Clark

                                                Are you just going to ignore what I just told you?

                                                #54156 Reply
                                                SA

                                                  Clark
                                                  You have indulged Paul for too long. He pretended to be hurt and has avoided answering my questions. His methods are clear, he does not answer but bombards you with lots of new links and counter arguments and when you look at the mm and answer him he just moves on to the next conspiracy.

                                                  #54160 Reply
                                                  Clark

                                                    SA, yes, that is so. But I know that Paul is a kind person. My thoughts about this are not clear at present; hopefully I’ll have some better idea what to write later.

                                                    Meanwhile, would you discuss something with me? On May 17, 02:49, comment #53661 you wrote:

                                                    “.. I will not accept that bad science and bad pharma are the be all of everything that is going on. I have my own experiences and know what it is all about.”

                                                    and

                                                    “Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children whilst pretending to be concerned about children. They are often connected to ‘natural movement’ and websites that practice quackery and profiteer from alternative medicine.”

                                                    There are two points I’d like to address here. Regarding the second quoted section, such arguments have been highly polarised for a long time and this seems to be the source of the impasse in communication, so regarding the first section, please tell me a bit about your own experience. And I’d be interested anyway.

                                                    What I suspect is that trust is essentially personal, but the modern way of relating has become very impersonal, especially in text communication such as this. So I think that we have to establish interpersonal trust before communication can be effective. Writing that reminded me of some thoughts from the Quaker Advices and Queries 13; “pray that your ministry may arise from deep experience, […] with sensitivity to the needs of others”, and one of the guiding principles at Wikipedia, “assume good faith”.

                                                    Returning to the first section, there is much distrust on both sides, there is genuine care on both sides, and there is profiteering which exploits both sides. Division itself seems to our first obstacle.

                                                    #54168 Reply
                                                    Paul Barbara

                                                      @ Clark
                                                      Grow up.

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