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– “when are people going to wise up?”
You imagine yourself to be wise. I have bad news for you; what you call the Devil is more insidious than you give credit for. Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn:
– “If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
You blame the world’s problems on some evil, essentially unidentified elite, but it is far worse than that; some of the problem resides within each and every one of us. Part of it is the feeling we each have that we know better than nearly everyone else.
@ Clark September 5, 2019 at 13:44
Don’t worry, I’m fully aware how insidious the Devil is, he runs the world.
And yes, he has power over all of us, to an extent, generally working through our subconscious.
But many people actively collaborate with the Devil, effectively selling their souls for wealth and power on this earth.
I believe that the Devil is an actual entity, and he has armies of demons at his command.
I don’t expect you to agree, but that is what I believe, literally.
@ September 5, 2019 at 13:22 you state:
‘…But I don’t think MMR causes autism etc.,..’ Just how scientific is that? You don’t think so, so you must be right. Exactly the kind of thinking you accuse me of! Essentially, you accept the ‘Official Narrative’, and dismiss all alternative views and evidence.
And it is not an isolated occurrence. You have preferred your own inexpert opinion over experts in other fields.Here is some of the sort of evidence I base my view on:
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub3/abstract
– “We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case‐control studies, five time‐series trials, one case cross‐over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine”
I have linked to it in a previous discussion. I have also mentioned cohort studies and case-control studies in this thread.
@ Clark September 5, 2019 at 23:33
And here is an example of an info source I get my opinions from:
‘Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument’:
https://bolenreport.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-nails-the-vaccine-argument/
‘..Now, all of the vaccines on the schedule, and all medical products, are required to list whatever safety testing they do. Not one of these has ever used a placebo. But some of them do safety testing anyway, like the polio vaccine, for maybe 48 hours.The hepatitis B vaccine that is given to every child in this country on the day it’s born, they observe for 5 days. That means if a child dies on day 6, it never happened. If a child has a seizure on day 6, it never happened. If the baby gets food allergies and is diagnosed three years later, or autism or an auto-immune disease, it never happened. That way they can say it’s safe.
The weird thing is that there was one vaccine, the MMR vaccine, that all of this hoopla is about, it’s the only vaccine that has no safety testing listed on the insert. And for many years, Del [Bigtree] and I have been saying, “that’s weird.” Do any exist? What happened? So we sued HHS. We said, “where is it?”
Three weeks ago they gave us the safety testing. There were 800 kids. Normally you have 20,000 kids or subjects in one of these. There were 800 kids in 8 different categories. For a drug they are going to give to billions of people. The testing lasted only 42 days.
But 50% of the kids who were involved in that study had gastro-intestinal illnesses, serious ones, some of them for the full 42 days. 50% had respiratory illnesses, some of them for 42 days. This is a product that is worse, according to its own record, than the illness it’s pretending to prevent….’
Seems some disconnect between your sites figures and RFK Jr.’s. I trust his.
I shall try to send RFK Jr. the ‘evidence’ you quote, and I shall try to send RFK Jr.’s article to Cochrane, askinf them respectively to critique the other. It will take some time, I should imagine, before I get responses, if I do.@ Clark September 5, 2019 at 23:33
When I tried to find your quote on the link you provided, I could not find it.
Can you please check if you sent me the right link, and if so, explain where your quote is?
I intend to send it to RFK Jr., with a request to comment on it (as I explain below in another comment).‘…Here is some of the sort of evidence I base my view on:
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD004407.pub3/abstract
– “We included five randomised controlled trials (RCTs), one controlled clinical trial (CCT), 27 cohort studies, 17 case‐control studies, five time‐series trials, one case cross‐over trial, two ecological studies, six self controlled case series studies involving in all about 14,700,000 children and assessing effectiveness and safety of MMR vaccine”
I have now contacted Cochrane; here is a copy of my email (via web form):
How do you reconcile your claims of the safety of the MMR Vaccine against the information RFK Jr. gives re the absolute minimalistic 800 children ‘Safety Test’?
Basically, I am not medical/technical minded, just an average Joe, and I’m asking if you would give me a critique of what RFK Jr. has written, or of the transcript of his talk, which I forward here, because the two attitudes to MMR safety differ so fundamentally:
‘Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Nails the Vaccine Argument’:
https://bolenreport.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr-nails-the-vaccine-argument/
I must add I favour RFK Jr.’s take.‘The True Purpose of California Vaccine Bill SB276’:
https://www.collective-evolution.com/2019/09/05/health-the-true-purpose-of-vaccines-bill-sb276/
‘…According to a MedAlerts search of the FDA Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database, as of 2/5/19, the cumulative raw count of adverse events from measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines alone was: 93,929 adverse events, 1,810 disabilities, 6,902 hospitalizations, and 463 deaths….’
And these bought ‘Legislators’ want a child’s right to education reliant on playing their ‘Russian Roulette’?
And that is without taking autism into account, because the Vaccine Court refuses to even look at cases of autism, never mind compensate them. It pretends that vaccines can’t cause autism.
Knocked over by a car? But the car was only going at 20 MPH, so you obviously died because you had a thin skull. Act of God!It’s the first paragraph in the sixth section “main results”. I opened the page from your copy of the link.
The adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from vaccination must be weighed against the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella. Note that the figures are cumulative, so these are since records of MMR began.
You make a false case if you promote only one side of the data. These official figures also show that the repeated claim of anti-vaccination sites that “the authorities pretend that vaccines are perfectly safe”, and which you enthusiastically repeat, are also false. Falsity is, I think, what you would call “the work of the devil”.
– “Not one of these has ever used a placebo”
It would be unethical to give a placebo, because the doctors would be withholding preventative treatment while convincing the parents otherwise.
Surely RFK has had this explained to him; even I know it. It is therefore dishonest of him to suggest that omitting placebo is underhand. Dishonesty is the devils work, and you need to think more carefully; doctors are more intelligent and caring than you are giving them credit for.
This is all a massive distraction.
In a humane, just society, parents of autistic children would get support no matter what caused the autism. But the US is not a humane, just society; it is a viciously capitalist society, so parents have only the chance of “compensation”. And they can only get that if they can prove that the autism was caused by some entity that has enough money to pay them.
Consequently lobby groups develop, and some people, maybe mistaken but possibly unscrupulous, amplify or even exploit the distress and poverty of parents to become figureheads and ‘heroes’, and sometimes to gain an income for themselves.
The fundamental evil is capitalism, which sets everyone in competition with everyone else.
The Cochrane authors already answered you; it’s in the section “Authors conclusion”:
– “The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre‐ and post‐marketing, are largely inadequate.”
Why did you not see it? Had the devil blinded you to good works?
How did Satan manage that, Paul? Had he tricked you into looking only for the confirmation of falsity?
@ Clark September 6, 2019 at 01:30
Thanks for pointing out the quote. I’ll send it tomorrow (too tired now).Good on you Paul for giving RFK the information, and the opportunity to argue his case.
If he now attacks the reputation of Cochrane or the researchers, rather than addressing the evidence they present and the methods they employ, then you will know that he’s not arguing scientifically.
@ Clark September 6, 2019 at 02:29
‘…“The design and reporting of safety outcomes in MMR vaccine studies, both pre‐ and post‐marketing, are largely inadequate.”…’
How come you never saw it? If you did, how do you still accept that the MMR is safe?Here’s Cochrane’s (very speedy) answer:
‘Thank you for your message.Cochrane is a global independent network of researchers producing reviews of health evidence. As such, the organisation does not take a stance on the findings of individual research papers. We simply support evidence-based decision-making by clinicians and patients.
For information from Cochrane on the evidence regarding the MMR vaccine you would need to search for relevant reviews in the Cochrane Library: https://www.cochranelibrary.com .’
So they pass on commenting on RFK Jr.’s speech/transcript. Pity they couldn’t stretch their parameters a bit to indicate where they think he is wrong. Hopefully I’ll get a better response from RFK Jr.@ Clark September 6, 2019 at 01:41
‘..The adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from vaccination must be weighed against the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella. Note that the figures are cumulative, so these are since records of MMR began…’
So where are the lists of the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella?
And notice the CDC’s own investigation which they funded showed only about 1% of adverse reactions gets reported, which caused the CDC to cut the funding and stop the investigation continuing:
‘It’s True, Less Than 1% of Vaccine Adverse Effects Are Reported’:
https://paleofam.com/2019/02/its-true-less-than-1-of-vaccine-adverse-effects-are-reported/
‘…This was clearly alarming and would have rocked the entire industry if given the light of day. Vaccine adverse events are supposed to be rare; they shouldn’t occur in over 2 percent of shots. So, the CDC buried the study and cut ties with the researchers.The report states: “Unfortunately, there was never an opportunity to perform system performance assessments because the necessary CDC contacts were no longer available and the CDC consultants responsible for receiving data were no longer responsive to our multiple requests to proceed with testing and evaluation.”…’
@ Clark September 6, 2019 at 02:17
‘..This is all a massive distraction….’ Not for those affected.
‘..The fundamental evil is capitalism, which sets everyone in competition with everyone else…’
So what to do? End capitalism?
Much easier to campaign for no mandatory vaccines, and proper vaccine testing and accountability from the Big Pharma Corporations.
Or just stand around, wringing our hands and tearing our hair, and letting the murderous Big Pharma and their government and media cronies carry on poisoning us and our children?Food for thought:
‘Germany ‘among worst in Europe’ for vaccinating children’:
https://www.thelocal.de/20170113/german-children-insufficiently-vaccinated-against-measles
‘..”It is sad that Germany comes in last in Europe in terms of eliminating measles,” said President of Berlin’s Robert Koch Institute (RKI) Lothar Wieler in a recent report…’
‘..However, despite lagging behind the desired vaccination rate, 2016 saw a dramatic drop in reported cases of measles…’
Ah, but….’11 Countries with the Highest Rates of Autism in the World’:
https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/11-countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-autism-in-the-world-357960/
‘…This theory fails to explain the low autism prevalence in countries like France, with 5 cases in 10,000 people or Germany, with just 1.9. Germany’s neighbor Denmark has an autism rate of 68 cases in 10,000 people, which is a staggering difference…’
I wonder if there isn’t a link between Germany’s low rate of vaccination, and there very low number of autism cases?‘Measles death in Germany prompts calls for mandatory vaccinations’:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/23/german-health-official-mandatory-measles-vaccinations-child-dies
Possibly because the child wasn’t vaccinated – I admit.
But, what is more dangerous? The vaccine, or the measles?
‘Measles Vaccines Kill More People than Measles, CDC Data Proves’:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/measles-vaccines-kill-more-people-than-measles-cdc-data-proves/5429736
‘…Parents concerned about their vaccinated children potentially contracting measles from unvaccinated children may want to consider the fact that the bigger health threat is technically the vaccine, not the disease itself. Comparative data provided by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) reveal that nobody has died from measles in more than 10 years, while at least 108 deaths reported in VAERS during the same time frame have been linked to measles vaccines….’
And of course, we know that VAERS reporting of adverse reactions is extremely low….– “So where are the lists of the adverse events, disabilities, hospitalizations and deaths from measles, mumps and rubella?”
Obviously, there is no list of adverse outcomes from diseases that were prevented. By vaccination. Stop fighting and start thinking, with that God-given brain thing in your skull. You keep shooting the allies.
– “Not for those affected”</em
You have forgotten those affected by preventable illnesses. Again. Or do they not matter, because natural diseases are a Gift from God? Rubella <b>is</b> known to cause autism, but I suppose you might regard that as good, natural autism.
– “Much easier to campaign for no mandatory vaccines, and proper vaccine testing and accountability from the Big Pharma Corporations”
Oddly enough, that’s exactly what Ben Goldacre does. His work forced a parliamentary review. And no, he doesn’t consider the matter closed by that, not by a long way.
It’s NOT what you are doing, no matter that you think it is. By spreading FUD and promoting propaganda (albeit contrarian propaganda), you are increasing the push towards mandatory vaccination.
Contrarian propaganda is just as bad as establishment propaganda. It’s like trying to fight for peace. There’s only one formula:
TRUTH, Justice, Peace.
You could have read that paper properly before zapping off an e-mail. And then some of their other papers on the same subject. The page I linked to was only the abstract; the full work is a systematic review, which means it’s based on a host of other papers. You could read them. In fact, you could probably spend an entire lifetime in the Cochrane Library. But you obviously have promotional activities that you find more rewarding.
You keep shooting the allies because they are <b>not</b> shooting back. A bit like the US and its attitude to “countries with weapons of mass destruction”.
They’re not shooting back because they have their faces buried in academic journals, diligently trying to make sense of the vastly complex world we find ourselves in. But just dismiss them as either agents or sheeple; the real heroes are political hopefuls, members of US political dynasties, and businessmen. Scientists are all scum.
I did see it. It was me that pointed it out to you.
Grief, this is like banging my head against a brick wall!
I have never claimed that MMR is safe. I have claimed to accept the expert consensus that MMR is safer than the diseases it prevents.
You keep alleging a massive cover-up, but you are not a reader of scientific literature. I show you the discussion, right out in the open, and instead of becoming interested in where you might have gone wrong you just fight, fight fight.
