Vaccine contaminants and safety


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  • This topic has 513 replies, 1 voice, and was last updated 5 months ago by Dr Edd.
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  • #52641 Reply
    SA

    Mullis denies AIDS is caused by a virus, and denied climate change and says PCR not useful for diagnosing viruses. Just because he discovered the PCR Does not mean that everything he then says is correct especially when it goes against science. You see some people, especially in the USA usually evangelicals, don’t believe in Darwin and are creationists. Science is not an opinion you can just agree with or not as it suits.

    #52642 Reply
    SA

    And Paul
    Please don’t ask me to comment on articles in OffGuardian. They now have a one track minded agenda, which may appeal to you but does nothing for me. I have stopped reading OG.

    #52643 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    Cuomo discovers novel way to spread Covid 19 deaths:

    ‘Coronavirus patients admitted to Queens nursing home — with body bags’ (Ney York Post).

    ‘Ve haf vays of increasing the death count statistics’ – murderous scumbag.
    I hope some of the victims relatives sue the ba^tard.
    Life is very cheap in the ‘Land of the Free’.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by modbot.
    #52661 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    ‘The Truth About Fauci Featuring Dr. Judy Mikovits’ (YouTube)
    ‘RFK, Jr.: Judy Mikovits is among her generation’s most accomplished scientists.She joined NIH in 1980 as a Postdoctoral Scholar in Molecular Virology at the National Cancer Institute. Dr. Mikovits began a 20-year collaboration with Frank Ruscetti, a pioneer in the field of human retro virology. She helped Dr Russetti isolate the HIV virus + link it to #AIDS in 1983. Her NIH boss Anthony Fauci delayed publication of that critical paper for 6 months to let his protégé Robert Gallo replicate, publish and claim credit. The delay in mass HIV testing let AIDS further spread around the globe + helped Fauci win promotion to director NIAID.
    In 2006, Dr Mikovits became director of Whittemore Peterson Institute for Neuro-Immune Disease + collaborated with Dr Ruscetti searching for the cause of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome which suddenly became epidemic in the 1980s. The male dominated medical community dismissed CFS as psychosomatic “yuppie flu” caused when fragile females cracked in corporate jobs.
    Dr. Mikovits discovered that 67% of affected women carried a virus—called Xenotropic Murine Leukemia related Virus—that appeared in healthy women only 4% of the time.
    XMRV is also associated with prostate, breast, ovarian cancers, leukemia, and multiple myeloma. Many women with XMRV bore children with autism.
    In 2009, Drs. Mikovits and Ruscetti published their explosive findings in the journal Science. But the question remained: How was XMRV getting into people?
    Other researchers linked the first CFS outbreak to a polio vaccine given to doctors and nurses that resulted in the “1934 Los Angeles County Hospital Epidemic.” That vaccine was cultivated on pulverized mouse brains. Retroviruses from dead animals can survive in cell lines and permanently contaminate vaccines.
    Dr Mikovits’ studies suggested that the XMRV Virus was present in the MMR, Polio + Encephalitis vaccines given to American children + soldiers.
    Dr Fauci ordered Mikovits to keep her mouth shut. When she refused, he illegally confiscated her work books and hard drives, drove her from government work + blackballed her from receiving NIH grants ending her science career. XMRV remains in American vaccines.’

    Now Dr. Faust (sorry, Fauci) & Gates, along with their puppet Dr. Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, are the main pushers of the ‘need’ for a vaccine (which they and their cronies have every intention of producing, and they can rely on other PTB puppets in governments around the world probably making it mandatory or extremely limiting not to have.
    Ah, well, when it comes to pass, you can always say it was a lucky guess on our (I’m certainly not the only one) parts. Along with WWIII, also on the cards from the Banksters, Corporatists and ‘Secret Societies’ that brought you all the other abominations, wars and financial rip-offs.

    #52671 Reply
    SA

    From Wikipedia page of Judi Mikovits
    “6Mikovits is an anti-vaccination activist and has spoken at a number of anti-vaccination events.[28][29][2][3] She has falsely claimed that retroviruses have contaminated 30% of vaccines.[1]

    Mikovits’s has gained attention on social media for promoting conspiracy theories about the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic. She does not believe that a vaccine is needed to prevent COVID-19[2] and claims that the coronavirus was “caused by a bad strain of flu shot that was circulating between 2013 and 2015”.[30]”

    #52672 Reply
    SA

    Dr. Mikovits discovered that 67% of affected women carried a virus—called Xenotropic Murine Leukemia related Virus—that appeared in healthy women only 4% of the time.
    XMRV is also associated with prostate, breast, ovarian cancers, leukemia, and multiple myeloma. Many women with XMRV bore children with autism.
    In 2009, Drs. Mikovits and Ruscetti published their explosive findings in the journal Science. But the question remained: How was XMRV getting into people?

    What you don’t tell us Paul, is that this paper was later withdrawn because it was found that the virus was a contaminant.
    Now you either didn’t know this, or you did but chose to ignore. Which one is it, because if it is the first I would just say next time please check your facts. If it is the second, then the mods need to know.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by modbot.
    #52681 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    ‘Ex-Russian Intel Officer Exposes Coronavirus Depopulation Agenda’ (The Freedom Articles’.
    ‘…They think there’s too many of us ordinary people in the world. There should be around 100 million of their kind and a maximum of 1 billion people on Earth to serve them. Then they’ll be living in abundance here on Earth. Because, us the people, the earthlings – there’s too many of us for the behind-the-scenes world powers.
    This is why the coronavirus and the financial crisis that has emerged almost immediately – they’re inextricably tied to one another. The aim is to stop people’s movement around the world, to curtail political freedoms…’
    The guy being interviewed, Vladimir Vasilievich, was the leading researcher for the Centre for Defence and Strategic Studies of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces, so his conclusions should not be dismissed out of hand.
    I believe the idea of the PTB planning a major culling of the world’s population is just too horrifying for many to accept, but this guy can hardly be caricatured as a tin-foil hatter.
    And he accepts the idea the Covid 19 was made in a lab, and deliberately spread in Wuhan.

    [ Mod: Paul, your advocacy of conspiracy theories is well known, and welcome as an alternative voice, but this blog should not serve as a platform for deceptive propaganda.

    We await a convincing response from you. ]

    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by modbot.
    • This reply was modified 7 months ago by modbot.
    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by modbot.
    #52685 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    Diversion will not do. Was the Science article alleging the virus contamination theory withdrawn or not? If you were unaware that it was do you now concede that it has been and that you did not know? If you persist on promoting such blatant one sided anti vaccine propaganda without retraction and then divert by posting another conspiracy theory then it seems to me that you are purely using this forum to disseminate disinformation. It would be up to you to convince that this is not the case. Mods may or may not want to decide whether to let this be a blatant pro antivaxxers forum irrespective of science and facts.

    #52760 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ SA April 29, 2020 at 04:08
    Kindly inform me which article you are referring to, and evidence of it being withdrawn (and by whom, and if possible on what grounds).
    In the interim, here is information put before one of the two Houses who make up Italy’s Parliament, the Chamber of Deputies, by a doctor (I am trying to get more info about this doctor). The original is in the form of a video, which is in Italian, so I have included another video, a news video from the UK Column, which has the text in English (and where I obtained the the information): ‘UK Column News’ – 27th April 2020′; go to news video from 40:35 – 51:09.

    Also of note: ‘Denmark rushes through emergency coronavirus law’: The Local DK

    ‘…As well as enforcing quarantine measures, the law also allows the authorities to force people to be vaccinated, even though there is currently no vaccination for the virus.
    It also empowers them to prohibit access to public institutions, supermarkets and shops, public and private nursing homes and hospitals, and also to impose restrictions on access to public transport.
    Initially, the government wanted to the law to give the police the right to enter private homes without a court order if there is a suspicion of coronavirus infection. But this was dropped after opposition from parties in the parliament…’

    So the PTB want to not only make shedloads of money on vaccines, but make their poisonous crap mandatory, at least in Denmark (vaccines are already mandatory in China).

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by modbot.
    #52763 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ SA April 29, 2020 at 04:08
    In my reply above, I included a video on the UK Column. I have been trying to get more information (not least the Dr.’s name, as the video below gives an alternative spelling, and I can find nothing about her online) but I have no doubt whatsoever the video is genuine.
    It is also dubbed in English, unlike the original one.
    The relevant part is between 40:35 – 51.09. According to info below the video, it was a Press Conference in the House of Deputies, and is extremely informative in the PTB’s lack of providing answers to legitimate and extremely important questions. The doctor very reasonably explains that the reason the information was published without peer review is because that would have taken about two years, and this information was vital for parents re getting their children vaccinated – had they waited, millions of children may have been vaccinated with dangerous vaccines. And their questions to the government and others remain unanswered.
    ‘VaccineGate English’ + YouTube
    I trust that throws a spanner in your incessant ‘conspiracy theories’ put-down.
    It is hard to provide strong evidence, because of the powerful forces trying to stifle the truth, and demonising alternative voices. Not a new phenomenon; but eventually the truth gets out – the earth really does go round the sun, and not vice versa. And that was before the MSM!
    I am still trying to get more info, like what organisation the Dr. belongs to, and a written translation of the video contents.
    Likely as not, the Italian MSM ignored the Press Conference, or at least wouldn’t have given the real meat of the argument, as they did here with Assange, Salmond and everything else.

    #52767 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    You miss the point . Dr Mikovits published a paper in science which alleges that a virus called XMRV is responsible for MI and a variety of human cancers and has been spread by vaccines. I posted above that this publication was later withdrawn because the data was not accurate and the virus was a contaminant and not found in origin human samples. I also posted an extract from Dr Mikovits’ Wikipedia page saying that she is a prominent activist anti vaxxer. These are the points I raised and asked you to answer. Your response was to send in more conspiracy theories for me to research and debunk. I refuse to do your work for you and have asked you to find out for yourself what happened subsequently to Dr Mikovits’ Science publication, something I am sure you are capable of doing, so that in future you could substantiate your claims rather than to throw more flak my way. Unless you do so, and answer the mods case above, I feel I can no longer indulge in chasing your constant trail of Conspiracy Theories that this Forum has become.

    #52769 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ SA May 1, 2020 at 07:24
    ‘…I also posted an extract from Dr Mikovits’ Wikipedia page saying that she is a prominent activist anti vaxxer…’ Do you really expect me to chase after Wikipedia BS? Maybe find out what Philip Cross thinks?
    I won’t even bother to check it to find if it mentions that Fauci cheated her and her co-worker out of the honour of discovering something or other (my memory is pretty bad on some things) by delaying the publishing and giving the report to a friend, who reproduced Dr Mikovits’ and her co-workers’ work and claimed credit, because if it had been on Wilepedia, Cross or their ilk would have removed it, because it didn’t have a MSM confirmatory article.
    Please yourself if you reply, or check out my comments. The one above details (in the video) a great deal of dangerous stuff in vaccines that should not be there, and names them (in many cases the lab/s could not identify stuff, but knew it shouldn’t be there because it was not on the list of things in the vaccine by the manufacturer). So it certainly is not ‘Conspiracy Theory’ to allege they put dangerous stuff in vaccines. Read it or not, please yer sen, but if you don’t like it, don’t bother replying to my comments. Admittedly, it would be hard to answer the questions the video brings up, so it’s a good time to ‘quit in a huff’.

    #52772 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    It is you who is acting as a victim now and going on in a huff. It really is a very serious question of the integrity of the research of Dr Mikovits, which you quoted to support the theory that vaccines are contaminated with a monkey retrovirus. There is ample proof that this research produced erroneous results, that others have not been able to replicate this, and that eventually Science (the periodical) retracted this paper because it could not substantiate the fighting. It is also now widely known that Dr Mikovits has become a serious campaigning anti-vaxxer. I asked you a serious question: Where you aware that Dr Mikovits’ research has been retracted by Science and that therefore this particular allegation about vaccine contamination is wrong, but you failed to answer the question.
    Here is the original publication, and here is the retraction by Science.
    Now all I wanted to know, before going down the rabbit hole of looking at your next conspiracy theory of covid-19 and so many other medical CTs was whether you were aware of this. Instead of answering directly you tried to dodge the question by using my reference to Wikipedia as an excuse to not answer.
    Why does this matter? Others read this blog and we are here as guests of Craig Murray and we must respect this privilege to voice our ideas, but also have the responsibility to not spread misinformation. If anything written is misinformation, it may reflect on the website. The mods have been involved in this and it is best if you can look at their comment and respond. You can either agree with my answer or disagree with good reasons but not fob me off with several other diversions.

    #52778 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Paul Barbara May 1, 2020 at 02:14
    Sorry all, I made a slip on the point of the video ‘VaccineGate English‘ which had the relevant ifo – it should have been from 16:35 on.
    Incidentally, the Dr. in the English-dubbed Italian video also claims they found retrovirus’s in the vaccines they tested. So if they are right, looks like Dr. Mikovits was right too.
    The PTB will happily lie, cheat and even kill to further their evil agendas.
    Mods, I’ve tried to add the Link as you said, I don’t know if it will work)

    #52779 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ SA May 1, 2020 at 13:39
    No, I did not know, or I would have checked it out: I still haven’t checked it out, but will do so as you have provided links. But now I have read what you say about Retrovirus’s, the Italian investigation and lab tests showed retrovirus’s in vaccines, yet neither the Italian government not the vaccine manufacturers have responded to their requests to show their safety tests.
    The video is not long, and should be of interest. It was read out in a Press Conference in one of the two Houses of the Italian Parliament, the Chamber of Deputies.
    Small point – I gave the wrong starting point in my comment for the ‘VaccineGate English’ – it should have been from 16:35 onwards, but the whole video is of interest.
    I tried to link the ‘VaccineGate English’ into a reply just now, but it didn’t work. Back to the drawing-board for that one. This reply is important, so I wont try again at the moment.
    As should be apparent, I would not put anything on here I believed to be false.

    #52788 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    We are going round in circles here. You have answered my questions about the reliability of Dr Mikovits’ finding of retrovirus responsible for MI, autism myeloma and other cancers by posting a video conference from an Italian group making allegations. I can only judge whether the data produced is reliable by looking at a publication, preferably peer reviewed. What you posted appears to have no other provenance on the internet and therefore is not proof of anything and I would classify it as antivaxxers propaganda. Please understand, scientific assessment of findings can only be based on published data not on press conferences. Please do not waste your time and my time. Unless you have an agenda.

    #52797 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ SA May 1, 2020 at 19:20
    ‘…Unless you have an agenda…’ Of course I have an agenda – getting the truth out (in this case re vaccines).
    I take it you did not watch the video, or you would have seen the strength of the Italian Dr.’s ‘allegations’; she is the advisor to an Italian Parliamentary Committee. I have spent over half the day chasing up links and punctuating and trying to iron out a machine-translated transcript of the ‘VaccineGate English’ video – I have just finished. It isn’t perfect, but it’s better than it was. I have had some invaluable help online from a couple of people who gave me links on a Forum, and also the name of the doctor, it’s Dr. Loretta Bolgan. The website of the assoociation she works for is <corvelva.it/en/>
    She explains in the video why they went public before ‘Peer Review’ – because that could take two years, and the information of the dangers cannot wait for two years, in which tens of thousands of children may be injected with contaminated vaccines. They most certainly do intend to put it up for Peer Review. If you are interested, there is a way to get the English translation from the video link to the video, but it will be one without punctuation and with many errors in things like names (from the machine translation), but the essence is very clear. If I had your email I could send you my amended copy; it is too long to post on here.
    They found Avian Leukaemia virus and mouse DNA, as well as Retrovirus’s, and loads of other gunk.
    If you watched the video, you might well change your opinion of vaccines, if you are genuinely seeking the truth.

    #52802 Reply
    SA

    I have watched some of the video. It is nonsensical to say that it takes two years to get something peer reviewed especially if it contains important public health data. I shall not pursue you to deny the misinformation you spread and continue to deny why Science withdrew Dr Mikovits paper. Over to the mods.

    #52805 Reply
    Dr Edd

    @Paul
    The “Vaccinegate English” video shows a press conference organised by the anti-vaccination lobby group Corvelva to announce Dr Loretta Bolgan’s findings to the world. You describe her as an “adviser to an Italian Parliamentary Committee” as if she’s some sort of equivalent to Prof. Chris Whitty, but as far as I can tell she sat on a subcommittee concerned with Depleted Uranium in 2016. She’s actually a researcher (or “scientific consultant”) with Corvelva – the anti-vax campaigners.

    A few days later, Dr Enrico Bucci (an Italian equivalent of Ben Goldacre) published a detailed critique of Dr Bolgan’s claims, with 8 major methodological objections. He summarised:

    In light of the considerations made, it is therefore not possible to confirm the presence of any of the contaminating genomes reported, and there are strong clues that lead us to think about the presence of numerous false positives.

    In her response, Dr Bolgan rowed back from her former “strong” claims:

    I have to underline an important thing once and for all: Corvelva is not doing a batch release check and has not requested to use validated methods for batch analysis, as producers, accredited laboratories and the ISS must do.

    As already mentioned, the data are not definitive and there may be inaccuracies in the reports. Everything will be reviewed and corrected as the work progresses.

    We are in the research and development phase…. Inter-laboratory tests and the introduction of appropriate certified viral mix standards will allow us to verify or deny the hypothesis you proposed, that is, that the method is not (yet) optimized for viruses.

    libraries were not obtained and therefore it was not possible to run them on the sequencer to check exactly what the reagent / environmental contamination is. However, efforts are being made to try to understand what ‘physiological’ contaminations there are and inter-laboratory tests will also help in determining possible laboratory-dependent bacterial contaminations.

    So by her own admission Loretta Bolgan conducted a preliminary study without screening filters, on vaccine samples with unknown contaminants, found what seemed to be viruses and elements of DNA and immediately broadcast her findings (which may contain “inaccuracies”) to the anti-vaxxer press; and then weakened her claims considerably when challenged. She still hasn’t refined her methods or submitted her work for peer review. How come, if it was so urgent back then that she had to tell the press before even confirming her results or validating her methodology?

    Do you know if any independent studies replicated those preliminary findings? (I’d have thought the anti-vaxxers would be getting celebratory tattoos if so.)

    Good luck with your search for truth, Paul.

    #52816 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    Let us assume that your agenda is to find the truth. If this is true, then it is not reconcilable with the fact that you start of by rubbishing the WHO, all vaccine manufacturers, the majority of the scientific community, public health bodies and all world governments. If we start of by trusting only websites that tell us what we want to hear then that turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy. It is understandable that some people question the safety of vaccines and ask searching questions, but the methodology to show this lack of safety has to be rigorous otherwise you are applying double standards. In the case of evidence that you present, the sources are often well known antivaxxers advocacy websites with dubious and pseudo-scientific arguments. If your intentions are what you say they are I would like you to consider what I write next, carefully and answer truthfully.
    I have spent time looking at various allegations about vaccines that you have raised recently. I have not looked at covid-19 here as this has been discussed by many in this blog in other discussion groups.
    I looked at a summary of what we know about XMRV and then also looked at a quick background on Dr Loretta Bolgar and the organisation she works for Corvelva.
    A good review of and what we know about XMRV, which is what Dr Mikovits was working on and claimed to be associated with chronic fatigue syndrome and various human cancers can be found here, in a reputable journal with references and logical scientific thinking. Here is the abstract. I apologise that this contains some rather complex scientific concepts, but that is why complex scientific concepts should be interpreted by competent scientists and not politicians and laymen.

    Xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV) was discovered in 2006 in a search for a viral etiology of human prostate cancer (PC). Substantial interest in XMRV as a potentially new pathogenic human retrovirus was driven by reports that XMRV could be detected in a significant percentage of PC samples, and also in tissues from patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). After considerable controversy, etiologic links between XMRV and these two diseases were disproven. XMRV was determined to have arisen during passage of a human PC tumor in immunocompromised nude mice, by activation and recombination between two endogenous murine leukemia viruses from cells of the mouse. The resulting XMRV had a xenotropic host range, which allowed it replicate in the human tumor cells in the xenograft. This review describes the discovery of XMRV, and the molecular and virological events leading to its formation, XMRV infection in animal models and biological effects on infected cells. Lessons from XMRV for other searches of viral etiologies of cancer are discussed, as well as cautions for researchers working on human tumors or cell lines that have been passed through nude mice, including potential biohazards associated with XMRV or other similar xenotropic murine leukemia viruses (MLVs).

    This plus the other references to XMRV and the discredited work of Dr Mikovits, to me settle this problem, as she then later went on to claim that this also contaminated vaccines, quitted research and became an advocate for the anti-vaxxers movement. So for me this is closed, unless you come up with some good refutation of what I said.

    As to the case of the video you linked to from the Italian parliament, I shall make no comments about why this was aired in the Italian parliament, my knowledge of Italian politics is next to nil, but I am aware that it is currently dominated by two factions, the populist five star movement and the right wing Lega parties. But be that as it may, the Corvelva association is a self declared advocacy group which has claims to fight for “Free choice of vaccinations.” and do this through

    Scientific research
    The principle of information on the entire scientific research relating to the effectiveness of vaccinations and the possible adverse reactions of vaccinations.

    That is all very well but to date the association has failed to produce any peer reviewed publication to substantiate their claims about the lack of safety and efficacy of vaccines. What has been published apparently is an internet, non peer reviewed document, and they hide behind the excuse that it takes two years to publish in a peer reviewed journal, which is not true.
    Yes I know that the link I provided is vaxopedia, with a mission to debunk the antivaxxer movement, but they give a cogent case with appropriate link. Here is also another website analysing the activities of Corvelva.
    Sadly I cannot get any background on Loretta Bolgan. When I click on the search link I get this message

    This site is not secure
    This might mean that someone’s trying to fool you or steal any info you send to the server. You should close this site immediately.
    Go to your Start page
    Details
    This website’s security certificate has been revoked, so you can’t go there at this time.
    Error Code: ERROR_INTERNET_SEC_CERT_REVOKED

    Paul
    Why I am spending time to answer you. The answer is in Luke 15:7, The parable of the lost sheep.

    In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent.

    I appeal to your better self, because I think you are genuinely concerned about us all being duped in various ways. But it is important to maintain a balance. It is of course important to be careful about the safety of vaccinations and also about mandatory vaccinations and limitations of freedom in other ways, but these have become important issues that need to be tackled, not through false science but through careful arguments based on facts.

    • This reply was modified 5 months ago by modbot.
    #52818 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Dr. Edd May 2, 2020 at 08:27
    Did you actually watch the video? Two laboratories found a host of dangerous stuff that should not have been in them; I’ll give a few examples in the following exerts. It is important to realise the translations were automated, and I punctuated them and corrected any obvious errors, not in medical terms as I know next to nothing about them, but don’t jump on any obvious error, because it will either be mine or the translating machine’s:
    I know these are long, but I can’t give you a link, because it involves getting the translation yourself from the video site and is quite complicated, but I do hope you watch the video yourself, which is dubbed in English:

    ‘…With their permission I’m talking about laboratories that are working on behalf of third parties; their work is focused on analysing complex matrices with the latest advanced technology and they have all the appropriate certifications to perform these kinds of studies. Again, the first screening level has been done to identify the unknown vaccine components and we cannot apply the standard validated methods to analysing the unknown vaccine components that were found because the standard validated methods can only be applied to analysing known components which is a normal process for the manufacturers of the vaccines so the phase we are in is one of research and development which will need to go beyond what the manufacturing industries currently do. The first type of screening concerns genetic material so we have looked for DNA, RNA and viruses that can accidentally contaminate a vaccine. We have used a system called next-generation sequencing that until five years ago wasn’t even well-established as an analysis method now however it is considered a routine analysis method that is also available privately.
    Another important method is mass spectrometry and with this technology we have been able to investigate the chemical and proteic parts in the vaccines; also this technology is currently used for forensic analysis and this specific technology has been acquired by the FDA for the analysis of contaminations in complex matrices so we are talking about a very reliable accurate technology. We’ve already finalized the analysis on four vaccines…’

    ‘..we have found a relevant quantity of fetal DNA that was coming from a complete genome so we have an entire human genome in this vaccine which can be classified as a vaccine component. We didn’t find the Rubella; we performed an extremely deep sequencing with 260 million sequences analysed and we found only a hundred and fourteen of Rubella. As a result of this study we have found four contaminant viruses: endogenous retrovirus, leukemia virus, equine anemia and avian leukemia virus. These viruses are widely studied in human anatomy and they can bond with human DNA. This being a vaccine containing an attenuated virus it would be appropriate to understand if these ones are deactivated or if they have been analysed because they present a hazard profile and mostly the quantity far exceeds the quantity of Rubella that’s present in the vaccine…’
    ‘..It seems that the formaldehyde and aluminum adjuvant in vaccines is forming chemical bonds that structurally modify these proteins and make them incompatible with intracellular enzymes, rendering them impossible for the body to break down. They can also roam around the body and they remain there for a long time because they are very difficult to excrete so once again the question is if the proteins have changed their actual form do they still create protective antibodies?..’
    ‘..All these problems raise questions about the quality of these vaccines being not a hundred percent guaranteed and if we can’t guarantee the quality we cannot guarantee the efficacy nor the safety of these vaccines ..’
    (translated automatically from ‘VaccineGate English’ video site and punctuated and partially corrected by P. Barbara)

    Note that Dr. Bolgan and Corvelva have requested information from the government and manufacturers for copies of their own test results, so they can compare their results. They have been stonewalled, and instead of getting their answers they are demonised as ‘anti-vaxxers’. But they ain’t going nowhere, and a have good public backing.
    ‘The dogs may bark, but the caravan moves on.’

    #52824 Reply
    SA

    Paul
    It is you who is stonewalling. Dr Edd answered already some of what you say. Dr Bolgan has already retracted some of her own allegations. Here is what Dr Edd said, in case you missed it:

    “A few days later, Dr Enrico Bucci (an Italian equivalent of Ben Goldacre) published a detailed critique of Dr Bolgan’s claims, with 8 major methodological objections. He summarised:

    In light of the considerations made, it is therefore not possible to confirm the presence of any of the contaminating genomes reported, and there are strong clues that lead us to think about the presence of numerous false positives.

    In her response, Dr Bolgan rowed back from her former “strong” claims:

    I have to underline an important thing once and for all: Corvelva is not doing a batch release check and has not requested to use validated methods for batch analysis, as producers, accredited laboratories and the ISS must do.
    As already mentioned, the data are not definitive and there may be inaccuracies in the reports. Everything will be reviewed and corrected as the work progresses.
    We are in the research and development phase…. Inter-laboratory tests and the introduction of appropriate certified viral mix standards will allow us to verify or deny the hypothesis you proposed, that is, that the method is not (yet) optimized for viruses.”

    I have already stated that Corvelva and Dr Bolgan have never produced a published peer reviewed research to back up their allegations. You answer by giving us a transcript of what Dr Bolgan has said, again without any evidence. As I said you are spinning. You are not really interested in the truth, in fact maybe the movement should not be called truthers but truth distortionists. Having said all that I now know that you are part of a disinformation network and will not comment on your type of propaganda.

    #52825 Reply
    Dr Edd

    @ SA, May 2, 2020 at 09:27

    Dr Loretta Bolgan is a qualified pharmaceutical chemist with some post-doctoral experience in genomic analysis. In her own words:

    Dr. Bolgan, what is your professional training?
    I have a degree in Pharmaceutical Chemistry and Technologies and I have a PhD in Pharmaceutical Sciences. I worked at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston as a molecular biologist, where I did genetic manipulations of viruses and studies on carcinogenesis. Later I worked in a company that deals with research and development of diagnostic kits. I published my studies in these first years of activity, to then dedicate myself to the study of vaccine toxicology. For over fifteen years I have been working as a partisan technical consultant for various law firms and I deal with scientific advice on vaccine damage, explaining if and which components have caused problems to those who have used it.

    From the rest of the interview, which is relatively measured in tone, it’s clear she doesn’t agree with the principle of vaccination – so the term “partisan”, although an imprecise translation from Italian, is fairly apt in this case.

    Here is an alternative perspective on her credentials from Dr Enrico Bucci in Cattivi Scienziati (Bad Scientists):

    Not like that expert pharmacologist, Dr. Loretta Bolgan, who studied for some time at Harvard but evidently failed to produce anything but 4 articles on PubMed between 1997 and 2005, without even one article in which she appears as first or last name: that is a real expert.
    So expert is she and so expert are the others from CORVELVA, not to notice a curious fact: the presence of manipulated images in two of the four Bolgan articles (precisely those made at Harvard). As it happens, I am an expert in the sector: here is a little help to understand what we are talking about.
    I reproduce below two of the things found in the 4 works of CORVELVA’s favorite expert on pharmacology.
    The first, below, shows how two lanes appear in two images of gel electrophoresis (blue and red arrows respectively), used to build a second image in the same work with what appears to be the most classic “copy and paste” aimed at manufacturing experimental data.

    Make of it what you will. Unlike Bolgan, Bucci is a recognised expert in genomics, with over 80 peer-reviewed publications. He also has a sideline in exposing scientific charlatans.

    Of course, these are authority arguments, which neither establish nor refute the veracity of her claims about vaccines. They do however give a strong indication of bias, which is certainly relevant to the interpretation of any inference she makes from uncertain data. Unfortunately, uncertain data is all she has to offer. Accordingly, her conclusions are shakier than a geriatric with Parkinson’s.

    Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits. The initial argument she ventures doesn’t fare well from the expert evaluation, however: Bucci highlighted 8 serious methodological flaws. In my opinion the matter is important enough to warrant a similar screening study to test the null hypothesis … not by anti-vaccination organisations (who are by their nature highly partisan) nor by pharmaceutical companies themselves (who have a record of concealing unprofitable data) but by universities who are answerable to a higher academic standard. The EMA has considered Dr Bolgan’s concerns, but has so far declined to investigate until her study is published in a peer-reviewed journal. Until then, her preliminary ‘findings’ are only useful for whipping up sentiment.

    #52883 Reply
    SA

    Dr Edd
    Are you aware of any connection between Dr Bogdan and Convelva with Dr Mikovits who originally described the later retracted findings regarding presence of the XMRV in blood from patients with With CFS and prostate cancer?

    #53272 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Dr. Edd May 2, 2020 at 14:48
    I made a longer more detailed reply a week ago, but it disappeared into the ether.

    ‘…Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits. The initial argument she ventures doesn’t fare well from the expert evaluation, however: Bucci highlighted 8 serious methodological flaws. In my opinion the matter is important enough to warrant a similar screening study to test the null hypothesis … not by anti-vaccination organisations (who are by their nature highly partisan) nor by pharmaceutical companies themselves (who have a record of concealing unprofitable data) but by universities who are answerable to a higher academic standard. The EMA has considered Dr Bolgan’s concerns, but has so far declined to investigate until her study is published in a peer-reviewed journal. Until then, her preliminary ‘findings’ are only useful for whipping up sentiment.’

    Dr. Bolgan and Corvelva have stated all along that the tests are ongoing and these are incomplete tests, but they have been carried out by qualified laboratories. The full tests would take longer and doubtless cost more (Corvelva is presumably financed by public donations), but the main reason they haven’t waited until all the tests are done, is because the vaccines for the children are mandatory. That means the longer the delay, the more children would be exposed to whatever poisonous substances MAY be in them.
    Yet the EMA and Italian government, as well as the vaccine manufacturers, just drag their feet, and haven’t responded to the requests for copies of the testing that has been done to show they are safe.

    You agree that ‘…Dr Loretta Bolgan’s claims shouldn’t be ignored or casually dismissed: they should be evaluated and investigated independently to verify that the safety of the vaccines falls within approved limits….’ – so what’s the problem? That is all she and Corvelva want – copies of tests that should have been done (maybe they weren’t, or exposed things the manufacturers don’t want publicised), and retests given their preliminary lab findings.
    Given the enormity of the possible consequences if only a fraction of Corvelvas’ tests are shown to be correct, the precautionary principal should ensure the government and regulatory bodies need to get moving on this, not procrastinate.
    There should be no need for Corvelva to do any of these tests – the manufacturers and regulatory bodies should have done them, and shown the results, which they seem highly reluctant to do.

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    #53394 Reply
    Clark

    “Yet the EMA and Italian government, as well as the vaccine manufacturers, just drag their feet, and haven’t responded to the requests for copies of the testing that has been done to show they are safe.”

    This, scandalously, is typical. Goldacre reports many similar examples in Bad Pharma, though regarding pharmaceuticals rather than vaccines. It’s called “regulatory capture” and is caused partly by frequent association and the revolving door between manufacturers and the regulators from employees up to senior administrators, partly government apathy, partly inadequate regulatory rules and partly lack of enforcement of existing rules. This is a data access issue, and it needs to be thoroughly cleaned out, but don’t hold your breath in our neoliberal world; it’s been a known major problem for decades.

    But in any particular case, it may matter a lot, or it may matter not at all, because vaccine vigilance is also performed by studying the end results. Vaccines are administered to millions, and records are kept by health authorities, thus creating a massive database from which vaccine effects can be, and are, examined with superb accuracy and in great depth.

    Is this a new vaccine? If not, you can go to the Cochrane Library, an online resource where systematic reviews of all sorts of studies are published in full and made available and searchable for the public with no charge.

    #53395 Reply
    Clark

    You also have to be very sceptical of the lawyers and the “expert witnesses” in all this; you have to remember that they get paid handsomely whether there’s any real danger or not, and whether they win their case or lose it.

    That’s the problem with capitalism; anyone can be on the make, in fact everyone has to be on the make or they aren’t “successful”.

    Paul, did you get to the bit in Bad Science about patient groups, and how they get funding and support from PR companies from the manufacturers of alternatives to the current standard treatment? This was exactly what Wakefield was involved with; he was helping a legal firm to discredit the MMR “three in one” jab while being involved in the development of another vaccine of a set to be administered separately.

    Mammon corrupts everything, and just because the big wolf is bad doesn’t mean the smaller wolf is your friend.

    #53479 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark May 13, 2020 at 23:40
    I am still at the same point in ‘Bad Science’, and I’m not likely going to get back to it for a while due to more important reading I have to do.
    It’s fine to agree that Regulatory Agencies are ‘captured’, we both agree on that, but that is the whole purpose of Dr. Bolgan and ‘Corvelva’ getting tests done, and though the whole series is not yet complete, demanding government take action to clarify the safety or otherwise of the mandatory children’s vaccines. It is no use at all to wait till tens or hundreds or thousands of kids get seriously injured or killed by these mandatory vaccines, the Precautionary Principle demands the government take immediate action, which they have not done, nor do they show any inclination to do so in the future.
    Of course, both sides are biased – Corvelva, over their children’s health, and the government and Big Pharma, over mega-bucks. I’m also biased, in favour of the children and parents.
    many if not most of the campaigners backing Corvelva are not ‘anti-vaxxers’, but they demand safe vaccines and proof of efficacy.
    Even Dr. Judy Mikovits is not an anti-vaxxer, nor is Bobby Kennedy Jr., they are against unsafe vaccines, and against mandatory vaccines.
    I haven’t had time to go back and find the vaccines that Corvelva has had tested, they tested more than 4 (each multiple disease) but only used info re 4, because they didn’t yet have the results from the labs for the others. They found a host of gunk in them which shouldn’t be there, but acknowledged that these were only preliminary results, and more specific and rigorous testing was needed to confirm or negate their preliminary findings.
    Regarding the ‘Scientific Approach’ to Covid-19, this should be of interest:

    ‘COVID CHAOS: A Closer Look At Coronavirus Testing’
    ‘…Flaws in Testing

    This is not the first time coronavirus tests have come into question. In Britain, tests produced under Public Health England (PHE) protocols were found to lack sufficient accuracy and were abandoned. Similarly, in the United States, the CDC’s own tests were also found to be flawed. Other countries including the United States, Spain, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Turkey and India have all reported faulty or inaccurate tests from Chinese suppliers.
    Obviously, bad tests means bad results. False negative test results return people who are actually infected with COVID-19 back into the community, confirmed to be safe to enjoy their remaining freedom. If the virus spreads and behaves as the MSM would have us believe, a small number of false negatives could spell disaster…’

    Even the designer of the PCR test said it should NOT be used for diagnosis; but then a test that can be skewed to go either way, like a Diebold voting machine, is a handy tool to the PTB if they have a nefarious agenda.
    I wonder if anyone on here is going to try to ridicule the PCR test information in the article? Because if it is true, it demolishes the whole concept of using these tests as they are currently being used.

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    #53632 Reply
    Clark

    “Of course, both sides are biased – Corvelva, over their children’s health, and the government and Big Pharma, over mega-bucks”

    Unfortunately it’s not as simple as that. The majority of Corvelva members are probably concerned only about safety for their children, but they make their decisions in an information environment that is being actively corrupted from all sides, because the “PTB” is not a unified bloc but a battleground, a competition for profit. The only real “PTB” is capital itself ie. Mammon, which mere humans fight to acquire, and the nearer the top the dirtier the fight.

    If GlaxoSmithKline are making the leading vaccine Quadrateq(TM) for blobulitis, do you think Merck & Co are above feeding cherry-picked information to Corvelva via a front, to associate Quadrateq(TM) with fear and anxiety? And if Corvelva just coincidentally raise suspicions about Quadrateq(TM), don’t you think Merck & Co might covertly encourage funds, lawyers and expert witnesses in Corvelva’s direction?

    #53649 Reply
    SA

    The dialogue above reminds me of medieval maps of the outer oceans, territories demarcated: There be monsters.
    Oh really the world is a scary place with big pharma not really out to profit by making effective medicines but by actually marketing crap products that not only don’t work but are positively harmful, and guess what? Through regulatory capture they do it because they have their men in the regulatory bodies through the revolving door.
    I am not saying that there is a lot of sharp practice in medicine production but there is really no evidence for this world of vaccines fraught with chemical contaminants, gunk and viruses. You have got to be paranoid to believe this rubbish.
    So

    I haven’t had time to go back and find the vaccines that Corvelva has had tested, they tested more than 4 (each multiple disease) but only used info re 4, because they didn’t yet have the results from the labs for the others. They found a host of gunk in them which shouldn’t be there, but acknowledged that these were only preliminary results, and more specific and rigorous testing was needed to confirm or negate their preliminary findings.

    Really Paul? Have you read through what you are trying to sell us here, and in your own admission you have not had time to verify? I tell you a friendly piece of advice, you just go and do that before disseminating misinformation, go and verify, your acute sense of duty to publish before verifying is reflected in the sources you also quote, they to have not verified their findings, nor published it in any proper venue. To have suspicion about something does not make it true. In fact I am very surprised that Paul continues to write this, having been challenged above, by both me and the Mods about Dr Mikovits, and having failed to answer the questions I posed to him? And what we get is: have you read bad science, oh no I have more important things to do for the service of the vaccine doubting fraternity.

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    #53655 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark May 16, 2020 at 15:00
    I notice you didn’t refer to the PCR test question.
    Your contention, or inference, that this is a six-of-one and half a dozen of the other does not match up with reality; re money, we are talking about a multi-$billion dollar industry, one of the biggest lobbying groups bunging politicians and MSM, against a handful of dedicated battlers for the truth and safety for the general public, especially children.
    Yes, there will be charlatans and dis-info merchants in their ranks – Big Pharma will have ensured that, to discredit them, just as police and security agencies plant agent provocateurs in Demos, and disrupters in political parties and protest groups.
    But basically, the people campaigning for safe, voluntary vaccines and transparency are fighting againnst the odds, basically on a hiding to nothing.
    Now and again, they get a result, like Bobby Kennedy Jr. and Del Bigtree:

    RFK Jr. Wins Case Against Government For Vaccine Safety Violations‘.
    >
    ‘…This will come as big and important news for anyone concerned with the safety of vaccines: as it turns out the federal government has been neglecting safety obligation for decades, which has been proven in a court of law bringing RFK Jr and ICAN to victory over DHHS.

    Robert F. Kennedy Jr teamed up with Del Bigtree of the Informed Consent Action Network to take on the Department of Health and Human Services for vaccine safety violations and they have won. Their lawsuit has brought forth evidence that vaccine safety has been neglected for over 30 years, and as we know it is nothing but a sham, showing that the government agencies we are to trust are not doing their jobs to ensure and improve the safety of immunizations…’

    Every two years since 1986 the DHHS were supposed to report on the safety and improvements of vaccines, and in 30 years they never once reported back to Congress. How on earth can you knock those who demand safe vaccines, under those circumstances?

    ‘…The DHHS has failed to meet even the most basic aspects of these important duties entrusted to them by failing to file a single report for the past three decades. It has been over 30 years since NVICA was put into place and entrusted to the DHHS to safeguard children, despite being the agency tasked with the responsibility of investigating and improving safety they have not done as much as to raise a finger towards vaccine safety…’

    I don’t know what, if any, penalty the DHHS suffered, but I expect nothing has changed.
    And the CDC and EPA are similarly criminally lax and corrupted.

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    #53657 Reply
    Clark

    SA, the roots of the suspicion lie in (1) secrecy and (2) the corporate media.

    You’ve read Bad Science, so you know that each chapter successively covers increasingly sophisticated varieties of bullshit, starting at the trivial with the “detox” industry, and working upwards through educational woo, cosmetics, homeopathy, naturopathy, supplements, nutritionism, pharmaceuticals, and vaccines – never forget that it was attempting to work with Big Legal and for Big Pharma that launched Wakefield on his anti-MMR crusade.

    But what you may have missed in Bad Science is that nearly every chapter is about how the “news” media distort and misrepresent science, and thereby undermine the public’s understanding of science itself. Bad Science is, more than anything, a scathing criticism of the “MSM”. If the main thing you got from it was to laugh at the quacks, you should read it again. Twice. Big Pharma are only less quackish because they’re more tightly regulated, but they’re every bit as unscrupulous as their cousins, the cosmetics industry.

    The public are indeed the pawns, but the science and medical professionals are only knights and bishops. Even the regulators and execs are only rooks and queens. We’re all being played, our health and understanding themselves are both the kings (half of which have to lose), but most importantly there’s only one player, one maker of the rules, one owner of the board, and that’s capital, or Mammon.

    I can’t blame Paul for either his suspicion or his lack of understanding, for who is there to tell him? The description of the game as related by the corporate media (from which the alternative media subtends) is so unlike the reality that the actual game is almost impossible to recognise. And well over half of it is hidden behind NDAs anyway.

    #53661 Reply
    SA

    “I can’t blame Paul for either his or his lack of understanding, for who is there to tell him?”
    You have blamed Node, Dave and others so why not Paul?
    Paul refuses to answer and bypasses questions posed to him. And it is exactly this that we have to be wary of the MSM as much as big pharma and governments, but not by following discredited scientists like Dr Mikovits and Corvelva group. I have asked him specific questions about this and produced evidence easily available and Dr Edd provided background information of the Italian case but he chose to ignore this. He is not debating he is diverting. I thought that this is the type of misinformation we are against.
    And I will not accept that bad science and bad pharma are the be all of everything that is going on. I have my own experiences and know what it is all about. Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children whilst pretending to be concerned about children. They are often connected to ‘natural movement’ and websites that practice quackery and profiteer from alternative medicine.

    #53676 Reply
    Clark

    SA, a primary tool of what I call the Toxic System is to divide us against each other. You and Paul and me are all fundamentally united in wanting good health for people, but we are divided about the means.

    “You have blamed Node, Dave and others so why not Paul?”

    Hmm, good question. What occurred to me first was that Paul and I have actually met in the real world, more than once. Very oddly, that should have made things worse because his behaviour towards me risked escalation of a legal action against Craig. I found the situation extremely stressful and frustrating since I was standing in to support Craig for a very close friend of Craig’s who couldn’t be there. The situation didn’t even end well; circumstances parted us with a heated row pending. But for some reason we have remained in contact and met again, without animosity. I think he and I are both confident of the other’s good intentions.

    What occurred to me second is that I do disagree with you to a considerable extent. In your comment of May 16, 20:27, #53649 you wrote:

    “..big pharma not really out to profit by making effective medicines but by actually marketing crap products that not only don’t work but are positively harmful, and guess what? Through regulatory capture they do it because they have their men in the regulatory bodies through the revolving door”,

    and these are literally the case. The effectiveness of capitalist “medicine” is merely bait. Capital doesn’t give a damn whether a medicine is safe or effective; it doesn’t make “medicine” to make people better, it does it for one reason only, which is to make profit.

    Now I expect your hackles have risen and you feel that is too extreme, but before it was withdrawn vioxx probably killed about as many people as US servicemen killed in the invasion and occupation of Vietnam, and Merck knew there was a safety risk. They went ahead and marketed anyway. They didn’t market with disclosure; “try this, but monitor for heart attacks”; indeed they couldn’t have done that within the Toxic System, they’d never have got vioxx licensed if they’d have disclosed the risk, because the system is adversarial.

    Capitalist medicine is effective only to the extent that bait needs to be convincing. We put a real maggot on the fishing hook, don’t we?

    “Anti Vaxcers are dangerous and cause death of children”

    You already posted a link elsewhere that shows that neoliberalism, again, is the major culprit, placing so much pressure upon parents that their lack of time and attention account for the majority of children who go unvaccinated.
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

    Division. Those medieval maps weren’t actually wrong, were they? We know now that the “monsters” were actually undocumented species of giant squid, cetaceans and algal blooms, but they really were there, and sometimes they posed dangers to medieval sailors. But their true nature was mostly hidden by the ocean itself.

    I have more to write on this but it’s time, always time… Issues have become polarised, inexorably, over decades. You wrote:

    “I have my own experiences and know what it is all about”

    and I’d like to ask you to write about this.

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    #53677 Reply
    Clark

    Paul – “I notice you didn’t refer to the PCR test question.”

    Indeed, and as I just told SA, I only have limited time. It’s an immense strain on me, trying to pull the various sides together, trying to engender unity amid the neoliberal ocean of division. SA has important points, Dr Mikovits paper was indeed withdrawn, and Mikovits indeed has a history of mistaking lab contamination for genuine results.

    At May 17, 02:49 you saw SA partially dismiss Bad Science and Bad Pharma. I hope that provides an incentive for you to complete your reading of Bad Science. I’d also urge you to a second reading; I’ve read my copy so many times that it has literally fallen apart. The reason I bypassed PCR is one of the immensely powerful tools contained within; that tool reveals that don’t need the PCR detail to reach my overall conclusion that covid-19 is very real and very deadly. That tool saved me weeks of time.

    I am glad that Robert F. Kennedy Jr, Del Bigtree and the Informed Consent Action Network have succeeded in prising open a vault. The contents will be treasure, but it is now vitally important that they are not now spent as gold coins, scattered to the four corners of Earth for whatever influence they can buy; to do so would be to fall into Mammon’s trap. The pieces are not currency, they are parts of a jigsaw, and not even a complete one. Nonetheless, the picture they contribute to is the prize we seek, for it is a map, a diagram, and our overriding concern must be to piece these new parts into the sections that have already been assembled.

    #53681 Reply
    Clark

    Paul and SA, I have now written to both of you. I ask you each to also read the comments that I have written to the other. Due to the strain on me I need you to both see that I am not taking the other’s side, which is the impression you will probably get if you only read the comment I addressed to you. If the tension increases too much I will have to drop out before I break, and my attempts at unification will go to waste.

    Division itself is our problem. No one here is an enemy.

    #53688 Reply
    Paul Barbara

    @ Clark May 17, 2020 at 11:03
    I understand the point about time – I’m also hamstrung by that. In my case, it is my lack of energy and constant tiredness that has me having to take naps at all times of the day.
    Couple of points – we actually have only met once, when Craig was at the High Court.
    We were about to meet again at the XR Demos when circumstances blocked that meeting. We’ll make it another time.
    Re Judy Mikovits’ paper being ‘withdrawn’, I think it was withdrawn by the magazine or wherever it was published, not by Mikovits. I don’t really know anything about that aspect, but I do suspect if she found mouse viruses in a vaccine that she was right – mice have been used in creating deadly pathogens since at least the early ’60’s (and are still used to create vaccines), when they and monkeys were used to create a virulent fast-acting cancer that was created to infect Castro; it even involved the construction of an ‘atom-smasher’ (I forget the scientific name) which was dismantled after it malfunctioned and almost killed a doctor, who was subsequently murdered.
    I have watched her video, ‘Plandemic’, and I believe her version of events rather than the host of ‘demonisers’. Good news (from my point of view) is she now has a #1 best-seller on the market. And in ‘Plandemic’, she categorically denies being an ‘anti-vaxxer’.

    #53690 Reply
    SA

    Clark
    Thank you for attempting to address both our concerns. As you say answering in a satisfactory way entails time and research and that is useful if these efforts are acknowledged. I would and have sometimes apologised if I have made a mistake but what is frustrating is when you have done some background research and found some reasons to explain some claims, is that the responders, in this case Paul, does not address the questions but goes on to either add more claims of a different kind, or ignores the answers all together. That makes me think that someone is debating from a fixed position and therefore it would be impossible to change this fixed view. But as you have yourself said before, we bother to do the research and to answer not necessarily to try and change the responders mind, but to counter their arguments as there are many readers of this blog, who may be otherwise misled.
    There are general principles: we live in a neoliberal capitalist society and ever since Eisenhower coined the phrase, the Military Industrial Complex, we are fully aware that all big corporations have one overriding aim, making money for the shareholders above all else. But they do not do that by just ripping you off, that belongs to the middle ages with robber princes. The success of capitalism has been that not only are these products excellent products, but that they become desirable and essential to the style of life that has become adapted (or corrupted) to these items. So to make a lot of money corporations have to be highly successful, nobody will make money out of products that are rubbish or harmful (except for the arms industry, but the harm is done to others, in the name of protecting us). But capitalism has developed ways of making enterprises more successful than they should be by the regulatory and political capture, the revolving door, legal dominance and formation of monopolies and cartels. This is the world we live in and we have to accept. But it is a whole integrated system and is difficult to fight by trying to pick issues that divert from the real issues and divide between us, as you say. In the case of big Pharma, as in the case of banking and as in the case of the petroleum industry and automobile industry, there are sharp practices and major failures. The fact the VW fiddled their emission figures and the fact that the banks have played loose with our money, does not mean that we should so mistrust everything to do with banks and motor cars and revert to live in caves. This is were I find the antivaccine movement most wanting. Of course there are historic issues with vaccination and of course there are issues with how drugs are licensed, but the anti vaccine movement appear to live in a time warp and quite often their methodology is dubious. As you pointed out yourself, Wakefield, who started all this may have been sponsored by some insurance companies. So it behoves us all if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support.
    I did not try to disparage Bad Science or Bad Pharma, just merely to say that there are other sources, and no one text becomes a bible, I have read the bible many times in the past and will not substitute it with other texts.
    Sorry for this long preamble which does not address directly some of the issues Paul has raised. I shall try to do so if I have time later.

    #53695 Reply
    Clark

    Paul, May 16, 23:53, #53655:

    “Your contention, or inference, that this is a six-of-one and half a dozen of the other does not match up with reality”

    That isn’t my contention; it just takes so long to express everything. Big Pharma only has to distort lots of little bits, because it has by far the larger platform, by far the greater power, a massive team doing genuine research (though out-funded by their marketing divisions), and it even owns publishing platforms. The anti-vaxxers tend to sensationalise, partly because they’re scared, and partly because, unable to afford a massive research output, they instead frame appeals to emotion based on scanty and less rigorous evidence.

    My analogy for this is a bit like a long lever. At one end, much force but little movement, at the other, much movement but little force.

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    #53696 Reply
    Clark

    SA – “This is the world we live in and we have to accept”

    No we don’t have to accept; Paul Barbara proves that, though I would argue that rejection becomes more effective the better it is targeted.

    “if we are to succeed in our efforts, to be very diligent in checking the credentials of those we support”

    Goldacre’s advice is to check everyone’s data and methods, and be sceptical of interpretations. John Ioannidis is a case in point; his credentials are excellent, but his Stanford study is wrong by an order of magnitude or more.

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