The Al-Hilli Conundrum

by craig on September 10, 2012 12:43 pm in Uncategorized

My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.

Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.

In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.

My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?

Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:

From Janesmith101

All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police

Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.

Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.

What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.

http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html

The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.

Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.

An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.

I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.

I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

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  1. “It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.”

    Yep, we’re thrashing around in the dark, mostly. But perhaps one bit here, and one bit there, will come together at some stage and there’ll be a lightbulb moment. ;)

  2. That media discourses are all ignoring the possibility it might be a Mossad hit job is enough to make me suspicious. It surely has to be high on the list of possible explanations.

  3. “How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?”

  4. My theory.

    The ex-RAF cylcist was said to be just behind the French cyclist Mollier. I think he was shadowing him. I think MI5 knew that there was some kind of meeting between Mollier and Iranian agents. I think the French are very embarrassed by what looks like a worker of a state owned nuclear group selling know-how to help Iran make nuclear warheads. Especially as it highlights the substantial Iranian money invested in France’s nuclear industry. I suspect Al-Hilli, who was Shia and no doubt had mixed feelings about the UK and US after the Iraq war, and who came across Zirconium in his work with micro satellites, was perhaps being used by the Iranians to simply verify the industrial information.

    Whether it was a hawkish Israel taking matters into its own hands, or an Iranian punishment for Mollier or Al-Hilli being double agents, I am not sure.

    On the one hand, the attack is stark and brutal and conspicuous, and involving the murder of French and British nationals. It seems strange that Israel would not liase with its allies to create a more discreet series of arrests.

    But equally, the manner of the attack seems very different to the spate of Iranian attacks on Israeli targets, which are frankly amateur and exclusively involving explosives.

    Also, the fact that Chevalier was the codename for a nuclear weapons project where the UK realised they couldn’t rely on the US to retaliate if the Soveits attacked them, seems too coincidental not to perhaps be a bit of Mossad jiggery pokery.

    This hit, after all, could be seen as the Israelis saying that they can no longer rely on the West to protect it from nuclear annihilation, and that it must go it alone. With the current lot in charge of Israel, one can imagine their line and ours is very different.

  5. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/jan/08/iran.observerpolitics

    This is exactly what I mean, and the sort of thing that would have fractured UK and Israeli defense relations to the point where something like the Al-Hilli massacre could happen.

  6. a few years ago many bio scientist died in strange circumstances in UK and Iraq. Israel does not want any arab nation to modernise, they bomb them into the stone age.

    Its great how they have a nice cover story for this recent killing, a family disupte.

  7. Its little known fact that David Cameron once went to south africa to acquire nukes for Israel, he went there with one David Kelly

  8. The stories being bandied around by the mainstream media and official sources are changing faster than new posts were added to the earlier thread – i.e how many bullets each, one or two weapons etc etc. The two ‘facts’ that have remained constant in the face of so much speculation and assumption are the ‘retired RAF’ man who ‘happened upon the scene’ and the dead cyclist who ’apparently stumbled across the attack’.
    I think it’s probable neither of these statements are true.

  9. to see if israeli fingerprints are on this crime, see what sort of news management has occurred and also which day it was done. anyone remember the flotilla that Israel slaughtered, to cover this stroy up , some random person drover around devon on a killing spree this ensured that the israeli crimes were “wiped off” the front page and replaced by crazy Englishman roaming devon.

  10. @Craig, you old Machiavellin shill you! (wink)

    You said: Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.

    The guy would have had to be better than Calamity Jane!

    7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.

    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.

    Right!

  11. murdermostfowl

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:05 pm

    Why would agents have a meeting? Library sized amounts of information can be left on a joint newly created email, or on many-gigabyte sized micro-sd under an agreed stone. .

    The only suggestion I can make is that French cyclist has a sample of some new alloy. and ex-iraqi scientist can verify it on behalf of whoever. this idea doesn’t really hang together – wouldn’t he use a lab at home?

    I can believe that grandmother’s face was shot off, and that the police looked for wedding photos etc in the UK in order to verify the passport.

    Was wife wearing a head-scarf which initially covered the wounds?

    Are the bodies still in the car in the helicopter picture in say Photo 3 {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19540445}

    The caravan looks tree-berth. Mummy and daddy, two small kids and grandmother. Why the ftw/three person tent pithed alongside (see photo 1 above)/

    My big “why oh why?” is the seven-year-old (non-dead, fractured skull, shot through shoulder – lots of damage with a 7.65 unless careful to give flesh wound} Smacking her over the head in order to give her amnesia seems hopeful on their part.

  12. Oh is that so?

    Surrey Police confirm that items found at the home of Mr Al Hilli were not hazardous.
    Sky News

    Yet the mud sticks. Earlier the BBC even had an ex Royal Logictics Corps officer on to explain the intricacies of ‘Improvised Exploive Devices’.

  13. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:08 pm

    Copied from old thread and posted to Icke yesterday. 1 shooter would give some substance to this.

    If the French cyclist was cycling towards the car when the gunman from the cover of the trees by the road, steps out after he passes and shoots 5 bullets into his back. The cyclist comes to rest where the tarp right by the BMW is seen later. Assassin comes to the fallen cyclist and 2 more shots to the head.

    But if the assassin has been waiting for the French cyclist he is aware of the family in the BMW. But perhaps the ex-Raf guy is one of the little girl’s ‘good men’ and he is there for their protection while their father is meeting the ‘bad man’-the French cyclist who has been sending metals to Iran for nuclear…. The ‘good man’ becomes a ‘bad man’ when he doesnt just observe but shoots the French cyclist and continues by shooting the only material witnesses. This would only work if he already pre-planned becoming the British cyclist and taking the bike from the roof, but he told the family to put the bike there as it would explain why they went down that road in the first place.

    Perhaps the 4yo was never in the car seat, the 7yo was and the 4 yo was already sitting on the floor by her mothers feet. Who was in the front passenger seat? The ex-RAF guy who protects the family and told them he has to meet the ‘bad man’. While there waiting for the French cyclist the 7yo wants to go to the toilet and gets out of the car.
    The ex-Raf man makes sure the 7 yo girl cant tell the police anything when they arrive.

    This would explain why the 4yo doesnt know the good men from the bad.

    I want to ask the 2 bricklayers was there a bike on the roof of the BMW, & were there 2 men sitting in the front.
    The green 4×4 turns suspicion to that.
    The lady in the village saw no more than a bad driver on a bad bend but was a convenient diversion, for more leads.

    Why so many shots? The 3 adults killed from the front passenger seat and then shot thru the windows afterwards to cover up.

  14. Join the dots: Cezus is a subsidiary of Areva, and so is Eurodif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurodif) in which Iran remains a shareholder: http://pages.citebite.com/l4i9f7q3cjej

  15. I thought the original “family feud” theory smacked of racism. Whoever floated that theory presumed – somewhat correctly – that a sort of it’s-how-those-Iraqis-resolve-their-differences theme could percolate the media. It perhaps worked for a while.
    .
    As seems to be increasingly the case with these types of stories, it’s on the internet that you find people asking the more pertinent questions. And idiotic speculation is as likely on the internet as on the mainstream outlets. This is a truly wierd case, and anyone mindlessly regurgitating official lines is simply not worth listening to.

  16. DonnyDarko on the old thread posted the coords of the murder location as 45.731048,6.225787 – Google Maps link http://goo.gl/maps/5v3jV

    Anyone disagree with that? Looks about right to me.

  17. Originally Posted by molliemallone
    What a surprise… the bomb squad have left the Al-Hilli home and the cordon lifted!

    Is it just me, or does the ‘workshop’ look like nothing more than a shed? If SAH was worried enough to have electronic locks and some sort of booby trap protecting it (alluded to on BBC news) surely it would have been a bit more sturdy than a wooden shed!

    Re your timeline Anders (thank you for posting it), I have a question…
    If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48, that is only 5 mins, during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired? Has it been reported how far away from the scene of the killings RAF man was when he was overtaken by the cyclist and witnessed the vehicles?

    I would have thought that if he was only overtaken 5 minutes before finding them all, he would only have been a short distance behind Mollier, and therefore would have been able to hear the shots (they were heard by someone else, so no silencer used). Looking at what has been reported, it seems the track was uphill, and looking at various cycling forums, it would seem that a very good uphill speed is about 16kmh (10mph) vs average at 8kmh (5mph).

    If Mollier had been travelling at 16kmh, he would have covered the following distances over the 5 minutes…
    after 1 minutes 267meters (just over 0.16 of a mile)
    after 2 minutes 534meters
    after 3 minutes 800meters
    after 4 minutes 1068meters
    after 5 minutes 1335 meters (just over 0.8 miles)

    If RAF man was travelling at 8km/hr, he would have covered the following distances over 5 minutes…
    after 1 minutes 133.5meters (just over 0.08 of a mile)
    after 2 minutes 267meters
    after 3 minutes 400meters
    after 4 minutes 534meters
    after 5 minutes 667.5meters (just over 0.4 miles)

    If RAF man was only 667.5 meters away from the killing site when he was overtaken, Mollier would have arrived at the site after 2.28 minutes. After 2.28minutes, RAF man would have travelled 320meters, placing him only 330 meters (1/5 of a mile!) behind him, surely he would have heard the shots over that distance?!

    If there was only one gun (as we are now being told) Mollier must have been shot first as he too would have heard the shots being fired over the 30 seconds if he was still cycling up the hill, and surely would have turned around ASAP!

    Sorry it’s so long winded!!

    Absolutely BRILLIANT stuff MM!!!

    during which time Mollier got far enough ahead of him that he didn’t hear any shots being fired?

    I’ve always said, RAFman is lying, I’m a keen mountain biker too, and when someone overtakes me I get annoyed and try and keep up, RAFman would probably be the same being a Type-A Pilot doncha know, so anyways my gut instinct was he wouldnt be far behind.

    Now your brilliant work has placed him at 333 metres (I like 333, the bastards like it too!)

    Great stuff!

  18. The nuclear angle may be misguiding us.

    Fundamentally Al-Hilli was a micro-satellite engineer, working at times for Surrey Satellite Technology. He was also company secretary of AMS 1087 Ltd, claimed to be an aerial photography company. So he knew a lot about small satellite and hi-res observation cameras.

    Iran has an extremely youthful satellite industry, most recently launching the 50-kg Safir-2B into a low orbit. It is obvious Iran would want an small optical spy satellite ASAP. Al-Hilli has exactly those skills, and he has visited Iran. Whether he has any links with Iranian space developers, or not, that seems like it would make him a possible target for some.

  19. Originally Posted by molliemallone
    Thanks Anders, thinking about it… RAF man would have been even closer when the shots were fired as it took 30 seconds to fire all the shots, placing him well under 300m away by the time they’d finished firing!

    Me thinks he’s LYING!

    We’ll have to rename RAFman to =>>> PINOCCHIOman!

  20. MollieMalone’s calculations are based on the assumption that the RAF guy was overtaken by Mollier 5 minutes before he arrived at the scene. (If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48). Where is the corroboration of this? If official statements were made verifying these timings, then MollieMalone’s calculations would be broadly correct, and very telling.

  21. @ Larry Levin Interesting comment about David Cameron and the South Africa nukes.

    There’s more here:

    https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?8933-David-Cameron-amp-the-History-leading-up-to-him

    Fast forwards from there via Gerald Bull, the Iraqi supergun affair, Matrix Churchill etc. etc.

    Those were murky times indeed.

  22. Okay, I think I have the link.

    Chevaline was a project codename to improve the penetrability of the warheads used by the British Polaris nuclear weapons system. This was the first submarine-based British nuclear weapons system.

    In June of this year Iran announced it was planning to develop a nuclear-powered submarine.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/12/us-iran-nuclear-submarine-idUSBRE85B17Q20120612

    Uranium-zirconium alloy fuels were used in the early US nuclear submarine programs, and zirconium alloys were used to clad the reactors powering them.

    Al-Hilli has been credited as designing the galley kitchen of the new Airbus.

    Could both be targets for designing a weaponised nuclear submarine? Mollier the reactor, Al-Hilli the actual interiors?

  23. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 2:52 pm

    “DonnyDarko on the old thread posted the coords of the murder location as 45.731048,6.225787 – Google Maps link http://goo.gl/maps/5v3jV

    Anyone disagree with that? Looks about right to me.”

    I thought that was on a mountain bike trail but you may be right in which case only 1km from 3km sign and police road-block

    https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=45.731048,6.225787&hl=en&sll=57.746995,-4.687341&sspn=9.759158,19.753418&t=h&z=17

  24. Wonder if there was a GPS destination programmed into the car’s sat-nav?

    Google Navigation says the road is suitable for vehicles and they weren’t at a dead end. Another track that carries on up the mountain side from that point is listed as not suitable for vehicles and I cannot plot a driving route up it. However the route might be suitable for bikes (off-road push bikes, motorcycles possibly?) A main road will be reached after travelling 1/2 mile (as the bird flies – longer on the track as it zig-zags).

  25. chevaline is not only the place in France it is also the name of a British nuclear warhead project!

  26. Yeap – the bikes seem the biggest question now. Was there one on the victims car (would explain the apparent damage to the roof rack). And are we sure the ex-Raf man came on a bike – I hope the french police check to make sure which bike really belongs to which person. There may only have been two bikes to begin with or maybe there was three so where is the missing one. An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

  27. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 3:00 pm

    On my Google map I failed to correctly mark the 3 km sign, your location appears to be 1.2km away

  28. @nuid

    French say they know how many guns and what type they were and what cartridges

    all they are confirming so far is 43 bullets and 7.65mm

    7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.

    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.

    Now – if two guns were used, both Beretta 70/71s, it still means each was reloaded 3 times or so…

    Camp site witnesses say they heard 30 seconds of automatic fire

    So that rules out 2 x Berettas

    I suggest one Beretta was used, at least, for accuracy, and another gun, at least, on automatic

  29. @Bajer

    MollieMalone’s calculations are based on the assumption that the RAF guy was overtaken by Mollier 5 minutes before he arrived at the scene. (If RAF man was overtaken at 15:43 and got to the scene at 15:48). Where is the corroboration of this? If official statements were made verifying these timings, then MollieMalone’s calculations would be broadly correct, and very telling.

    =====

    I concur, and I’d also like to know please if anyone has a source for the alleged 10 mins RAFman was alone with the beemer, and whomever else, before he called the cops/ambulances

    I

  30. Aren’t (some of) you forgetting something?…
    The Iranians have decreed nuclear weapons as forbidden. If Al-Hilli was involved in proliferation, it could well be for an alternative foreign power, and not Iran. [A Central Asian states perhaps?]
    .
    I would imagine Iran’s RnD sector is sufficiently advanced that it would not need to gain the kind of information a french Nuclear engineer could furnish – which would very likely (in my eyes anyway) be related to civilian, and NOT MILITARY nuclear technology.
    .
    All this could be a set up to make it LOOK as if Iran has a secret plan. The fact that chatter is suggesting just that, is quite telling I feel.
    .
    And does nobody find it peculiar that with the ratcheting up of anti-Iranian rhetoric to near ‘twelfth hour’ proportions of late, then suddenly this happens?
    .
    Whoever did the multiple, probably professional assassinations, indicates an ACTIVE and rogue agency is at work which is able to operate undetected by the standard intelligence and law enforcement agencies. That is very disturbing, and shows they themselves must be hunted down. But of course this would not happen if it’s authority is sufficiently high, like an agency of a state for example.
    .
    This ‘group’ has the ability to track and hunt down opponents as well as possibly being able to undertake successful surveillance on people who surely must have taken high levels of security and anti-surveillance measures IF they were up to something serious.
    .
    It doesn’t take much thought to narrow the list of perpetrators.

  31. @anon

    Wonder if there was a GPS destination programmed into the car’s sat-nav?

    Google Navigation says the road is suitable for vehicles and they weren’t at a dead end. Another track that carries on up the mountain side from that point is listed as not suitable for vehicles and I cannot plot a driving route up it. However the route might be suitable for bikes (off-road push bikes, motorcycles possibly?) A main road will be reached after travelling 1/2 mile (as the bird flies – longer on the track as it zig-zags).

    =====

    Wonder if a 4×4 could escape that way…?

  32. Vermillion,

    An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

    “Our ZircAloy(TM) bikes with enhanced MOX core ensure you will never run out of energy even on the steepest climbs.” ;-)

  33. straw44berry could you post the cords you think it is then. The coords posted by DonnyDarko match those posted by a newspaper as the google maps coordinates but that could be wrong.

  34. There is a multi-lingual sign which can be seen here on Google Streetview:

    https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=45.731048,6.225787&hl=en&ll=45.757424,6.223021&spn=0.001024,0.002642&sll=57.746995,-4.687341&sspn=9.759158,19.753418&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=45.757424,6.223021&panoid=SQBqpksbidCjqyn8w4Sq-g&cbp=12,200.47,,0,4.93

    I noticed this on the initial TV coverage as it basically says that the road is only suitable for motor vehicles for another 5km. As far as the car was concerned, they were driving a cul-de-sac. However, there appear to by myriad tracks in that part of the valley which would easily be accessible by mountain bike or on foot.

    The average gradient from that point up to where the car was found is about 1-in-16, but some parts appear to be considerably steeper at around 1-in-5, which is STEEP for a cyclist. The height gain is around 300m. One would have to have a very reasonable degree of fitness to cover 5km (3 miles) of off-road track of that sort of gradient at 16km/h, i.e. in less than 20 minutes.

  35. @Vermillion

    Yeap – the bikes seem the biggest question now. Was there one on the victims car (would explain the apparent damage to the roof rack). And are we sure the ex-Raf man came on a bike – I hope the french police check to make sure which bike really belongs to which person. There may only have been two bikes to begin with or maybe there was three so where is the missing one. An exchange of bikes would be one way to exchange technology – especially effective if they were very similar bikes.

    ====

    I thought of that yesterday, if RAFman found, say, a memory stick, he could have taken off the seatpost and dropped it in the downtube, pop the seat back on, would the French check before SDECE arrived? I doubt it. SAH apparently did have an MTB strapped to the roof of the beemer, per the camp site folks. If RAFman is lying, and was always at the RV in the trees, after the 1. cock-up, or 2, hit, he for whatever reason decided to stick around, did he rip the bike off the roof (as the roof supports look damaged) and then make up a story about having an innocent bike ride. But then, what did he do with the damaged roof supports, if there were any, hard to tell from photos. He could have give them + other evidence he wanted to collect either to the 4×4 or the motorbike.

    IF they existed at all, I understand we only have RAFman that saw them at all?

  36. “I noticed this on the initial TV coverage as it basically says that the road is only suitable for motor vehicles for another 5km. As far as the car was concerned, they were driving a cul-de-sac. However, there appear to by myriad tracks in that part of the valley which would easily be accessible by mountain bike or on foot.”

    Yes, I saw that too. Which is why I have always referred to it as a dead-end, other than for walkers or cyclists (or, one assumes, motorbikes.)

  37. “Yes, I saw that too. Which is why I have always referred to it as a dead-end, other than for walkers or cyclists (or, one assumes, motorbikes.)”

    It’s also why I asked, which direction was the 4×4 and the white car supposed to be going in when seen? And if they were coming down, who saw them going up? And what direction was this green 4×4 supposedly going in when the RAF guy saw it?

  38. My last point.

    If Iran was involved in this massacre involving young children, there would be a considerable political incentive to promote this, both in the West and in the Israeli press, as this would add to the general case that Iran is a terrorist state not to be reasoned with, and war is a potential necessity.

    If Israel was involved, it could be a massive potential embarrasment, as a supposed ally kills UK and French nationals with impunity, and without their intelligences knowing very much at all. It would stoke anti-Israeli feeling and damage any potential case for war with Iran. There would be a considerable political incentive to bury this and shift the blame onto other more mundane and domestic suspects.

    Which one does reality tally with?

  39. Is that hasbarah, barkbat?

  40. The second, obviously.

  41. I don’t think ak-Hilli was involved in some kind of bogus activity to help Iran acquire nuclear weapons or to meet smn related to such alleged activity. I also don’t think he would take female members of his family to “a trip” which he knew would be dangerous (if he was in bogus activity to help Iran), considering he had knowlwedge of satellites, he probably would know he would be under surveilllance for such activity.
    So, i believe, the main target was a Frenchman, al-Hilli turned out in a wrong place at a wrong time. RAF man should be questioned. He is the one who knows more here. Military style execution in such a short period of time and the killer dissappears. Smells rat. Smells Israhel.

  42. @Lwtc247

    Aren’t (some of) you forgetting something?…
    The Iranians have decreed nuclear weapons as forbidden. If Al-Hilli was involved in proliferation, it could well be for an alternative foreign power, and not Iran. [A Central Asian states perhaps?]
    .
    I would imagine Iran’s RnD sector is sufficiently advanced that it would not need to gain the kind of information a french Nuclear engineer could furnish – which would very likely (in my eyes anyway) be related to civilian, and NOT MILITARY nuclear technology.
    .

    =====
    As I think Barkbat has stated, what if it were a nuclear sub design? Or this new satellite SAH was working on that can see through clouds? Etc etc. The pair had a very wide skill set, and access to all manner of mainframe computers, with access passwords etc.
    =====

    All this could be a set up to make it LOOK as if Iran has a secret plan. The fact that chatter is suggesting just that, is quite telling I feel.
    .
    =====
    Yes THAT and the fact that our 4th estate is NOT mentioning the dreaded M word, sayanim, and kidon teams.
    =====

    And does nobody find it peculiar that with the ratcheting up of anti-Iranian rhetoric to near ‘twelfth hour’ proportions of late, then suddenly this happens?
    .
    =====
    Well it’s on the cards Iran will be attacked sooner or later, that has been the PNAC plan all along, and they haven’t veered off course yet.
    =====

    Whoever did the multiple, probably professional assassinations, indicates an ACTIVE and rogue agency is at work

    =====
    You’re yalking about Jason Bourne’s TREADSTONE now, lol. But you could very well be right, because unless the 20-man spook panic scramble was just a fake, a tell, then the brits were caught by surprise…
    =====

    which is able to operate undetected by the standard intelligence and law enforcement agencies. That is very disturbing, and shows they themselves must be hunted down. But of course this would not happen if it’s authority is sufficiently high, like an agency of a state for example.
    .
    This ‘group’ has the ability to track and hunt down opponents as well as possibly being able to undertake successful surveillance on people who surely must have taken high levels of security and anti-surveillance measures IF they were up to something serious.
    .
    It doesn’t take much thought to narrow the list of perpetrators.

    =====
    Yes a small’ish list.

  43. Matt,

    That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end.

  44. speaking of terrorists Craig,

    I wonder how many undesirables have been subject to incarceration in our mental institutes, feed a plethora of drugs or chemically lobotomized?

    better still I wonder how many visits to such premises have been by our secret services?

    As a country we should hold our collective heads in shame or am i being too cynical?

  45. Just noticed how far up the road into the forest the car was if Mr Al-Hilli was being dropped of for a cycle or even a meet and swap then he could have been dropped nearer the village and cycled the rest of the way (keeping the rest of the family out of it). Maybe the family were to be extracted (to where I don’t know). As I’ve mentioned before there are helicopter flights around that area (for viewing Mont Blanc I have heard) and there are flat areas above that road that could land a helicopter.

  46. “That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end”

    You’re right, I measured the 5km from Armand. The first 1.4km is a height gain of around 70m. My point about fitness levels / speeds / gradients still stands though.

  47. Anon

    “Matt,

    That sign is 3.6km away from the coords posted by DonnyDarko (by road not straight line). Google Nav still insists that was not a dead end.”

    ===

    One early report mentioned that a barrier was open – it did not make sense to me at the time but maybe the road is closed sometimes(in winter or when forestry work is being done). Given the barrier was open it seems all this talk of dead ends is misleading. Maybe the barrier was closed and one of the involved parties opened it…. which would make a good ambush point. Perhaps the 7 year old daughter left the car to open it.

  48. Any blood spatter experts here?

    This just posted at Icke, I must say I never thought about blood spatter, surely the remaining windows should have been drenched, the front windscreen etc…

    Originally Posted by tien an
    25 shots fired….two head-shots each adult…and not one blood-stain visible on upholstery or
    what remains of window glass.

    What are the chances of that?

    tian an.

    Anders – latest is 43 shots…

  49. Can someone post another link to the photograph (taken from above) of the car please?

  50. murdermostfowl

    10 Sep, 2012 - 3:48 pm

    Apparently the telegraph claims it as theirs?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9533266/France-shooting-al-Hilli-family-neighbours-allowed-home-after-bomb-scare.html

    (Repeat question) Does anyone know when this was taken – before or after the bodies were removed?

    I can’t find a version that allows considerable enlargement.

  51. Thanks v much

  52. Does this look like a track you’d casually drive a BMW up on a family holiday?

    http://www.panoramio.com/photo/675653

    Here’s the sign I was referring to:

    http://www.euronews.com/images_news/img_606X341_0709-annecy-murder.jpg

    Aerial shot of BMW:

    http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01580/French_Shooting_1580531a.jpg

    Doesn’t that look like tarmac at the bottom?

  53. Anyone see blood spatter here? I see what looks like a small patch on the left hand seat, middle left smashed window…

    http://www.oddonion.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/0aec1__62750010_62744761.jpg

  54. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:03 pm

    So given the BMW is hard up against the embankment, was the tailgate already open when it was reversed?

    Looks like it would be impossible to open it where it rests as it would meet the undergrowth as it opened?

    Also looks like the rear passenger window is down suggesting daughter no 1 who got shot was pushed through that and instructed to run?

  55. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:05 pm

    Coordinates of the sign where the Police Road block is

    45.75746,6.223035

  56. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:07 pm

    Just south of there with the junction of Route du Moulin

  57. Murdermostyfowl,

    Highest res version of photo I can find http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/08/article-2200388-14DEF9C4000005DC-848_638x624.jpg

    =============

    Look very closely.

    The front driver’s RHD half of the windscreen looks to be rather clearly shot out, or caved in, be my guest, with shattered glass all over the instrument pod. I don’t see any blood but the res is not that good.

    Glass on the inside, lots of it on the dash, not on the bonnet.

    Plus, what appear to be two round white marks on the screen, as if a body hit it, or a sledgehammer was taken to it.

    Anyone agree about the front windscreen? If so, how did this happen?

    RAFman didn’t cave in the front window (still intact), when the driver’s side already has two holes in it per the official story of how SAH was shot.

    Ditto the front pax side, 2 holes as in at least 2 bullet holes. RAFman didn’t go in that way.

    That is getting crazy.

  58. A point made by TomRudko above rings true to me. What man would take his family, his children, to a clandestine meeting that involved anything as dangerous as many suggest here? This strongly suggests to me that Al-Hilli had no understanding he was doing anything untoward.

  59. (1) Speculation about a treff in the woods makes some sense given the al-Hillis seem to have waited an hour in an otherwise uninteresting spot, but what man takes his children to a potentially dangerous meeting?
    (2) Probably al Hilli was the target, not the cyclist: he and his passengers were executed with great professionalism at close range (almost complete surprise), whereas the cyclist was clearly shot at greater range, implying he was not the primary target, merely a witness.
    (3) It’s much harder to be accurate with handguns than people think, even at close range. To perform a series of triple taps into three people in a vehicle with not a single misplaced shot bespeaks a lot of training and experience.
    (4) I would have guessed two killers given that only one person escaped from the car, but I don’t know what has been confirmed. The 7.65mm ammo is suggestive – used in small concealable handguns, but 25 rounds fired means at least three, more likely four mag changes for a single weapon. That is, unless a small SMG were used, like a Skorpion. 7.65mm is much easier to moderate (silencer) than 9mm, because most 9mm is supersonic. 9mm would be preferred for stopping power, but you’d choose 7.65mm for a quiet “surprise” close range hit.
    (5) “Almost complete surprise”: position of vehicle suggests driver saw it coming and tried to reverse away from man/men producing guns. He was disabled before he get into Drive. This is consistent with vehicle bumping backwards into bank, and depth of rear tyres implies car (if automatic) was spinning its wheels in Reverse, possibly right up to ex-RAF witness killing engine. (May explain why he felt turning engine off such a priority.)
    (6) Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types: this level of brutality is more like that of Colombian or Albanian blackhats, and since their involvement seems unlikely, certain Arab agencies spring to mind.
    (7) Very hard to fit family row/inheritance feud into this scenario. The stench of politics and intel/paramilitary involvement is unmistakable.
    (8) IMHO, we will learn more about al Hilli’s history and activities that will begin to shed light on this.

  60. “Does this look like a track you’d casually drive a BMW up on a family holiday?”

    I think on balance that may be a photo of a different track, given that there’s tarmac on both of the other two photos I linked to. Looks like the road / track of tarmacked at least as far as where the car was found. Still have to be pretty fit to cycle up it in 15-20 minutes though.

  61. This guy interviewed on BBC 5 live, is some sort of ex-detective, turned crime writer/investigator. Was over in Chevaline for 24 hours. He has apparently no interest in the occupations of al Hilli or the French cyclist. But he says that it “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’ because the killers went back down the hill. He says you can take the turn in the road and carry on by car for 20 miles (but he doesn’t say where it ends up).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLgnAaM9Ws&feature=youtu.be

  62. Straw44berry

    I make that sign 3k away as the crow flies from the coords posted by Darko. These cords seem to match those given in other sources showing overhead google maps.

    Gogle Sat Nav is happy to plot a car route from the sign to the spot – 3.6km driving. Google Sat Nav is also happy to plot an onward route from there (but not up the smaller track that starts up the mountain from the small “car-park”).

  63. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:19 pm

    Aren’t the marks on the screen just from someone shooting from the drivers side inwards, ditto the smaller hole in the passenger side front door glass?

    Suggesting that who ever had been in the front seat had left before things kicked off, either older girl – or pretend RAF man?

  64. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:22 pm

    “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’

    Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.

  65. Milton

    agree with some of that but the fact is neither of the children were killed (presumably after seeing the 7 year old they would have guessed the 4 year old was about)so perhaps the assassins were only expecting Al-Hilli and balked at slaughtering the children but “had to” knock the 7 year old out because she was screaming or something after shooting her to stop her running off. So maybe still a “western” (what are you implying here about arabs?) intelligence agency with some qualms about killing children.

  66. Keith Crosby

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:24 pm

    May I suggest a healthy degree of scepticism to rumours that non-existent Iranian nuclear ambitions are part of this? We wouldn’t want to give the zionist entity a pretext for even more terrorism now would we?

  67. The photos on oddonion.com are credited NI Syndication.

    Now, we all know who NI are, don’t we? Or that yet another red herring??

  68. @phil

    Anders7777 said this yesterday:

    Why would Saad al Hilli take his wife, kids and mother-in-law along to a clandestine rendezvous to exchange intelligence or materials? That makes no sense.

    =====
    Yes it does because who would think he was up to something, he took the family for a day out in the Alps. He sees Sylvain, he sez I’m getting out to stretch my legs, they have a meet on a mountain bike trail away from the car. I doubt for one minute he thought he would be ambushed or he wouldn’t have gone there. Apparently the family went there every year, a caravan, a property in France et cetera. If it was a proper rendezvous I would wager he planned on a quick walk whilst the women looked after the children.

    Of course this is all supposition. But nobody can deny the facts ref Sylvain’s employers and SAH’s.
    =====

    Suhayl said this yesterday:

    Re. the question of why he took his family to the remote possible rendezvous, one ought to point out that families – including children – are used often for cover in espionage activity. Read Corinne Souza’s excellent work on the subject – her father was an Iraqi SIS agent for many years, so she writes from experience.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Baghdads-Spy-Personal-Espionage-Intrigue/dp/1840187034/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1347178840&sr=1-1

  69. Someone in France (unknown to me) is tweeting me (and others) with the word zirconium. Also talking about ‘To see if they have recovered from zirconium from Ugine in France Alps’. Ugine is the site of CEZUS.
    http://www.areva.com/EN/operations-977/cezus-ugine-melting-and-forging.html

    May not be relevant. Do you have to recover from contact with zirconium?

  70. @Milton:

    “Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types….certain Arab agencies spring to mind.”

    Two questions immediately spring to mind from your sentence:

    Why would a state which willfully kills children with war and sanctions hesitate to do the same with special forces?

    Why do you think an Arab agency would be more ready to kill children than others?

  71. “Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.”

    Yes, my thinking exactly.

  72. @Anders7777 et al
    There is a very full timeline in French at
    http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
    Oddity: the absence in the timeline of unnamed the wife of Sylvain Mollier raising the alarm there. In fact this fact comes only from the Prosecutor who spread the rumour that the cyclist was the wrong person in the wrong place (Huff Post link 6 sept)
    Sylvain Mollier semble avoir été au mauvais endroit, au mauvais moment. Il est la seule victime non britannique de la tuerie de Chevaline.
    Ce père de famille, originaire d’Ugine, près d’Albertville en Savoie, était parti faire un tour de vélo, mercredi, du côté du lac d’Annecy tout proche. Il ne s’est pas rendu dans cette zone peu fréquentée, boisée et sans issue par hasard.

    Il avait pris la direction de Chevaline avec la ferme intention d’en découdre avec « une bonne petite montée ».
    En ne le voyant pas revenir, sa compagne a donné l’alerte.
    Sylvain Mollier venait d’avoir un fils, en juin dernier. Employé chez Cezus il était en congé parental. Ce quadragénaire était père de trois enfants.

    No mention of the wife there. This is what the Huff Post writes:
    His wife, worried when he did not return from his cycle ride, alerted the authorities, without making a link to the killings.

    She went to a local police station with a photograph of her husband. Officers quickly made the link and her husband was identified as the fourth victim.

    He found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time, Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud said.. Is this from the prosecutor?

    No interviews forthcoming from the wife – she is not a witness to anything one imagines. No doubt gagged.

    Notice also the deputy Mayor of Ugine, Michel Chevallier, who knew Sylvain Mollier and relayed the news to his wife, allegedly, on Wed 6 September lays out the official narrative:
    “Dans ma tête, je vois Sylvain arriver en vélo et une personne lui tirer dessus parce qu’il a été témoin d’un massacre”, raconte l’adjoint, ajoutant : “il serait passé peut-être cinq minutes avant, il serait tranquille, cinq minutes après, il aurait été le premier témoin de ce massacre, mais aujourd’hui il serait avec nous pour parler de ce massacre”.

  73. from reports it appears that al hilli (or someone) tried to reverse the car out of the lay-by (tyres sank deep into the mud) would make sense if the road ahead was blocked(4×4)and there was no escape from behind.
    .
    so many “qualified” people in such a small area .. is this place popular with this type of tourist .. or is it just another “conspiricists” coincidence?

  74. @Dave

    Aren’t the marks on the screen just from someone shooting from the drivers side inwards,

    =====
    They don’t look like bullet holes to me though, they kinda look like someone tried to break the widow with something
    =====

    ditto the smaller hole in the passenger side front door glass?

    =====
    Well there are 2 holes so I would think 2 or more bullets on pax side…
    =====

    Suggesting that who ever had been in the front seat had left before things kicked off, either older girl – or pretend RAF man?

    =====
    Like the pretend RAFman bit, as in, they were waiting for Sylvain to arrive, then RAFman does the hit, with help from others.

    If Zainab was in the front pax seat (I still don’t know for sure about the child seat arrangements, or who was in the back, wife or Zainab?), she had stepped out of the car for some reason. The official story says she was not in the car when the shooting started, so, a stray bullet?

    I still think the front driver’s half of the windscreen looks caved in or shot in?

    Any more opinions?

  75. @Dave

    “couldn’t be” a professional ‘hit’

    Turned out to be a *very* professional hit as almost everyone died and the killers have vanished into thin air, and the authorities seem unwilling to investigate it properly.
    =====

    Yes you can always count on the BBC to give airtime to the sayanim types…

  76. So…4X4′s…surely SatNaV fitted a standard on exactly these types of vehicle.

    Should be easy enough,then,for the authorities to comb the SatNav datbanks with these co-ordinates for a specific time-window..

  77. Sorry if it’s been posted already .. I can’t keep up and “work” at the same time ..
    FWIW –
    http://islamic-intelligence.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/lac-dannecy-affaire-al-hilli-la.html

    Bing Translate: –

    “Lake Annecy: Case Al Hilli, the gendarmerie and the Attorney of the Republic Maillaud covered the commando of killers from the Lyon suburbs, this is a military operation which has taken a ‘Arab’ working and knowing a tiny part of the design of the aero-space shield of NATO-Israel.

    Contrary to what reported in the anglo-French corrupt media, Saad Al Hilli was in fact under British protection because he was working on the design of new systems GPS of firing missiles and the harmonization of guidance systems and inter-operabilites European aero-space shields of NATO. The Iranians, the South Koreans, Chinese, Russians possess already plans for the militarization of airspace, and Western aero-space architecture are in fact Israelis who have provided the technology plans and some of the European plans East, against Chinese billions. Israel as it does not provide any details of his ‘iron dome’.

  78. >> The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. <<

    One key feature of this program is that scientists are killed on the basis of what they *know* rather than what they *do*. Their current work is not as important as the level of knowledge that they have attained. If the Israelis believe a scientist has the knowledge to help the nuclear weapons programme — even if they are not engaged in any manner with such a programme — the scientist is killed.

    This comes straight from the mouth of an IDF general. He was quite open and matter-of-fact about it.

  79. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:39 pm

    from reports it appears that al hilli (or someone) tried to reverse the car out of the lay-by (tyres sank deep into the mud) would make sense if the road ahead was blocked(4×4)and there was no escape from behind.

    He may have been going for drive, but only got as far as reverse before being shot – remember park reverse neutral drive, it’s gone into the bank hard enough to dig in a bit, but not hard enough to crash?

  80. of course not to forget al hilli also worked for the uk intel agencies against saddam in blairs war ..

  81. This is not a wind up.

    Perhaps the NYPD officers currently in London can help out. They seem to be ubiquitous. In Israel, France, Germany, and other places.

    NYPD Opens Up New Bureau–in Israel
    Mayor Bloomberg’s “personal army” heads to the Middle East. What could go wrong?
    http://www.alternet.org/hot-news-views/nypd-opens-new-bureau-israel

  82. “Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children”

    What Phil said, 10 Sep, 2012 – 4:30 pm

  83. @Jives – no, probably not. Location searches are usually stored in Satnav memory, but otherwise Satnavs don’t usually keep a record of ongoing position. This requires more storage and software than these very simple computers have, and is done deliberately to reduce the cost.

    Also – I’m sure you already know – Satnavs only receive a signal, so there is no record of their position on the satellite side.

  84. @Anders777

    Yes, my point was possibly naive. I suppose I simply cannot empathise with people who play these games. Such cruelty is hard to imagine.

  85. I’m not the only one to think it odd that the initial police didn’t check the bodies for sign of life;

    “Forensic experts said the first job for police who arrived at the crime scene should have been to check for survivors.

    But it could be that the first officers called to the rural beauty spot in the French countryside simply ‘panicked’ when confronted with the horror.

    In the UK, a doctor would be called to certify death – doing so, in this instance, could have alerted officers that the child was alive amidst the carnage in the car.

    Jim Fraser, professor of forensic science at the University of Strathclyde, said the first responsibility for officers confronted with such a crime scene is to check the victims for signs of life.

    It has been known for victims even with gunshot wounds to the head to live for hours and survive if they get emergency treatment.

    He said: ‘The overriding responsibility to the first responder at a crime scene, in the UK, would be to ensure that all individuals present are accounted for, their health and welfare, with an initial but thorough look at the crime scene.’

    Prof Fraser said of such multiple death crimes: ‘It’s a pretty horrible scene – not for the faint-hearted.’

    Forensic experts say it is a fiction to think murder scenes are preserved in pristine condition until they are examined by crime scene investigators.

    Only after police have carried out their duty to preserve life and certify death do they ‘freeze the scene’.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2198777/French-Alps-shooting-Police-question-Saad-Al-Hillis-brother-Zaid-inheritance-row.html#ixzz2658gG4Z5

    Hope it’s just bizarre procedure rather than something more sinister.

  86. @Milton

    (1) Speculation about a treff in the woods makes some sense given the al-Hillis seem to have waited an hour in an otherwise uninteresting spot, but what man takes his children to a potentially dangerous meeting?
    =====
    See my post just now on this, it is quite common. It also suggests he was NOT worried about this meet, if it was a meet. He felt safe, did RAFman make him feels safe?
    =====

    (2) Probably al Hilli was the target, not the cyclist: he and his passengers were executed with great professionalism at close range (almost complete surprise), whereas the cyclist was clearly shot at greater range, implying he was not the primary target, merely a witness.
    =====
    I don’t buy that, Sylvain could have been sprayed from a distance. The hit team may have been waiting for him to arrive, then take out all but the kids. Bad timing, Sylvain arrived whilst Zainab having a toilet break? Zainab takes a stray bullet? Pistol whipped, but no more. Someone had a conscience.

    (3) It’s much harder to be accurate with handguns than people think, even at close range. To perform a series of triple taps into three people in a vehicle with not a single misplaced shot bespeaks a lot of training and experience.
    =====
    Very much so

    (4) I would have guessed two killers given that only one person escaped from the car, but I don’t know what has been confirmed. The 7.65mm ammo is suggestive – used in small concealable handguns, but 25 rounds fired means at least three, more likely four mag changes for a single weapon. That is, unless a small SMG were used, like a Skorpion. 7.65mm is much easier to moderate (silencer) than 9mm, because most 9mm is supersonic. 9mm would be preferred for stopping power, but you’d choose 7.65mm for a quiet “surprise” close range hit.
    =====
    Mossad and Skymarhalls use this round and Beretta 70 types for this reason.

    Also, 43 bullets, not 25.

    (5) “Almost complete surprise”: position of vehicle suggests driver saw it coming and tried to reverse away from man/men producing guns. He was disabled before he get into Drive.
    =====
    Not too sure about this, wheels do seem to have dug into the bank, if driver panicked in reverse, then dies, engine may have been left screaming in reverse. RAFman was determined to switch the engine off, for some reason, rather than tend Zainab.

    This is consistent with vehicle bumping backwards into bank,
    =====
    But no dents at front of beemer, so it wasn’t bumped back, blocked I would say yes…

    and depth of rear tyres implies car (if automatic) was spinning its wheels in Reverse, possibly right up to ex-RAF witness killing engine. (May explain why he felt turning engine off such a priority.)
    =====
    Someone gave details of the beemer rear diff, car may have been kinda bouncing as the electronics coped with spinning wheels

    (6) Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children, as should (we hope) any Western wet affairs types: this level of brutality is more like that of Colombian or Albanian blackhats, and since their involvement seems unlikely, certain Arab agencies spring to mind.
    (7) Very hard to fit family row/inheritance feud into this scenario. The stench of politics and intel/paramilitary involvement is unmistakable.
    (8) IMHO, we will learn more about al Hilli’s history and activities that will begin to shed light on this.

    Great stuff!

  87. Two sets of buildings at the top of the slope – reachable by the mountain path from the murder location (but not for cars).

    0.8 km from cords http://goo.gl/maps/A8dbL

    1km from cords http://goo.gl/maps/zSxug

    Anyone know what they are?

  88. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:49 pm

    Like the pretend RAFman bit, as in, they were waiting for Sylvain to arrive, then RAFman does the hit, with help from others.

    They all set off, collect pretend RAF man on the way, so both kids and both women end up in the back, either they drop off RAF man down the road a bit to watch from the undergrowth, or with an hour to wait he nips off for a pee.

    Next up Frenchman arrives on his bike, before much else happens, killer appears – shoots Frenchman, then before BMW has chance to escape, shoots driver, giving wife time to hide smaller girl and push the other one out of the open window, she gets shot from over the car, explaining why killer missed head and just hit her shoulder, kills women, does the old double tap thing to make sure everyone is really dead, and then either out or bullets or getting short of them, uses pistol butt to try to kill girl, before doing a bunk.

    Raf man gets back to find dead bodies all over the place, and needs 10 minutes to speak to HQ and try to come up with an excuse for being there, spots bike on top of car, perfect excuse…

  89. I just want to state that I have been dropped off for hikes or bike rides at close to the area where the assassination occurred and would never expect someone to drop me so deep in the forest .. i still think that the fact of the whole family so far into the forest is relevant. The road is tarmaced but still a bit of a hassle to navigate not an easy drive as it bends and switchbacks. Bikes tracks branch off at earlier point.So either the family wanted to pass through the forest maybe to escape to Switzerland or Italy and make it difficult for followers. Or some kind of extraction.

  90. “So…4X4′s…surely SatNaV fitted a standard on exactly these types of vehicle.

    Should be easy enough,then,for the authorities to comb the SatNav datbanks with these co-ordinates for a specific time-window..”

    No such thing, a Sat Nav is a self-contained device which only receives radio signals from GPS satellites, it does not transmit.

    They might be able to trace who was in the area through mobile phone records, but given the remoteness of the spot and the steepness of the valley that mobile coverage would be non-existent:

    http://opensignalmaps.com/index.php?lat=45.6349&lng=6.2052&initZoom=11&isHeatMap=1

    That said, if the killer(s) had a phone switched on as they headed back towards Chevaline, they should have connected to the local tower at some point having not been connected previously (out of signal range). The phone records could be scoured for such info.

    Map of local mobile phone towers:

    http://opensignalmaps.com/index.php?lat=45.7419&lng=6.2239&initZoom=12&isHeatMap=0

  91. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:53 pm

    “I’m not the only one to think it odd that the initial police didn’t check the bodies for sign of life”

    If they though the car had a boot full of nuclear material, might that explain why they checked for signs of life with a helicopter, and waited 8 hours for a special team to arrive?

    Why check for signs of life with a helicopter when you can just walk up to the car?

  92. @phil

    I hear you. Good coppers have to think like a crim would.

  93. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 4:55 pm

    “So either the family wanted to pass through the forest maybe to escape to Switzerland or Italy and make it difficult for followers. Or some kind of extraction.”

    If it’s true that they waited for an hour, they could have just have driven to Switzerland in that hour, which is a safer place, the motorway or deep in the woods?

  94. “He may have been going for drive, but only got as far as reverse before being shot – remember park reverse neutral drive, it’s gone into the bank hard enough to dig in a bit, but not hard enough to crash?”

    It was a British car, much more likely to be stick-shift (or ‘manual gearbox’ as we call it) than automatic.

  95. Jon, Sat-navs now can be mobile phone network assisted (faster position locking, remote tracking etc) and can download sat location data over the net rather than slowly from the sats) and many can record your journey onto a flash memory card if asked to do so.

  96. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    It was a British car, much more likely to be stick-shift (or ‘manual gearbox’ as we call it) than automatic.

    OE04WJZ BMW 3.0 – must be an auto.

  97. Vermillion.

    There is a clear path marked on Google Maps starting at that point and heading up the mountain. That’s why there is a small car park there presumably.

  98. “Two sets of buildings at the top of the slope – reachable by the mountain path from the murder location (but not for cars)”

    Listed just as chalets on the French maps: http://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/accueil?c=6.238104875676329,45.732052757104576&z=0.000032305502520928274&l=GEOGRAPHICALGRIDSYSTEMS.MAPS.3D$GEOPORTAIL:OGC:WMTS@aggregate(1)&permalink=yes

    The aerial photography is better than Google, mind you.

  99. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:09 pm

    Macky said:
    I’m not the only one to think it odd that the initial police didn’t check the bodies for sign of life;

    Unless they would believe ex-RAF man implicitly without hesitation. Like he was their boss.

    ——————————–
    The car photo -you can see the rear passenger seat clearly if the woman who was sitting here had her seat belt on when shot she wouldnt slump forward far because of the belt. And there would be a lot of blood if she was shot in the head on the seat especially after staying there for 8 hours??

  100. Here are my CiF replies to JaneSmith101′s Guardian comment, posted by CM above – like her comment, not only removed, but (very unusually) deleted without trace. The thread has now been prematurely closed:

    1: All that information is firmly in the public domain, so I really don’t understand why responsible media outlets should have a problem with it.

    But if this is not just some of the rampant paranoia circulating on this (as on many other less current ‘stories’), it may explain why my questions to the Mail, ending ‘Google Cezus+Zirconium and Iran+Zirconium’, didn’t survive moderation.
    I thought they just thought my questions were too boring and unemotional.

    …But I do still find it very difficult to believe ‘security services’ of whatever kind would be stupid enough to try to contain elements of a story that are already circulating. You can’t delete the Net in the same way you can delete a Guardian comment.

    We’ll see what happens to this one as a test…

    (It may not be a very good test, because moderators sometimes err quite a long way on the side of caution, even when they really don’t need to.)

    [Comment Deleted]

    2: PS: if the paranoia about ‘censorship’ of elements of the story already in the public domain (and I mean for a long time, like the significant results of the suggested Google searches) has any foundation, then that WOULD be a big story, well worthy of comment at this site.

    [Comment Deleted]

    [2a [in response to another poster:] That sort of stuff could go on for ever. I mean, to risk confusing Hollywood and Reality:

    The RAF cyclist was the perp.

    Al Hilli was a double agent.

    Or far better and more scary (but equally improbable): The whole thing is a setup to raise the stakes over the Iranian nuclear programme in order to provide a casus belli to, er, take out Iran, or Ahmedinejad or who/whatever.

    But this sort of speculation probably is quite inappropriate at this stage, the transformation of ‘News’ into a kind of macabre infotainment.

    Goodnight again(really, this time).]

    [Comment Undeleted]

    2b: Strangely, there may be rather more to the paranoia around this case than I at first suspected – at least on the part of the UK media.

    Am I not allowed to write here:

    Google CEZUS+Zirconium and Iran+Zirconium?

    I mean, CEZUS is the biggest local employer apparently, the world leader in Zirconium-related products and research, and Mr Hilli was according to press reports ‘a Shia socialist’ and skilled engineer in whom the security services had earlier shown some interest, his wife who he apparently met in Dubai in 2002 was Iranian.

    I mean, I declare here that I have absolutely no ‘inside’ knowledge – it’s just a question which I was surprised the mainstream media were slow to cover (like other rather obvious questions I tried to raise at the extensive Mail webpages devoted to the Big Story).

    As I earlier suggested, it would have been highly counterproductive for a family member in conflict with his brother over a family legacy of less than a million to employ a (presumably) expensive and messy ‘professional’ hit squad when he wouldn’t avoid police attention after the event (though the extended family and other ‘connections’ need not of course be mutually exclusive).

    I’ve never thought spies were really much more than fancy Plods, though, so perhaps they really would be mad enough to attempt to control the global Net. I think it’s what technical ballistics people call ‘shooting yourself in the foot’.

    Then again, if I were really paranoid, I’d start thinking about scenarios in which this counterproductive attempt to suppress obvious questions already well into the public domain was itself part of ‘the real story’ – a sophisticated part of, say, a ‘false flag’ operation to ratchet up the case against Ahmedinejad (for example).

    But for those outside the investigation itself, the biggest story here may well be ‘the story of the story’ and its attempted management or manipulation.

    For me right now, that’s just an interesting QUESTION – perhaps the most interesting question about this ‘story’. Just a question, like the various – to me rather obvious – questions that don’t seem to have yet caught much of the attention of the mainstream media.

    I think it’s hopeless – and counterproductive – for those outside the investigation to find ANSWERS at this point.
    But I think it’s right for the MSM to ask some of the basic questions they appear to have been avoiding (for whatever reason – yes, WHY?) – and if the MSM won’t ask them, then it’s important for others to ask them, and also to ask why the MSM isn’t asking them.

    [Comment Deleted]

    Other related comments were recently still undeleted at the site, including a link to this article on the Arak reactor programme:

    http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/Arak_Update_25_August2009.pdf

    This may all just be rather incompetent Guardian moderation, but it gives the strong impression that someone doesn’t (yet at least)like any mention of Zirconium or CEZUS’ refined Zircaloy in the MSM.

    As I responded to the Guardian moderator’s brief note that the thread was about to close prematurely: Wonder why?

  101. Matt,

    Wonder if the chalets were occupied then and who by at the time?

  102. I do not think that the Israeli deep state terrorist agencies would balk at killing young children – though none were killed in this incident as you seem to misunderstand, though were left as good as dead, with shot or bashed in skulls – I’d hazard they’d relish it –and then that Arab ‘agencies’ would wade in? Nice one Milton, our newest Dead Sea Troll.

  103. Don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it, but it’s remarkable that the French police have had no difficulties coming to Britain to question (suspect? “person of interest”?) people about this murder, such as Mr. al Hilli’s brother. The British police, in turn, find no problem in going to France to interview people there.

    So why can’t the Swedish police visit Mr. Assange in London to ask him questions relating to their enquiries?

  104. @Dave Brooker – no, it’s manual, not automatic. Type it into MoneySupermarket for a quote, and it tells you it’s:

    BMW 530 2004-2010 Diesel 3.0L Manual 5 doors D SE Estate

  105. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:22 pm

    When sitting in the back seat there is almost always more legroom on the passenger side than the driver side. Male driver + steering wheel.

    The little girl is on the floor therefore she is on the floor passenger side. More room.
    Her mother shot dead is slumped forward over the child, obscuring her.
    I would expect blood to be seeping from the mothers head onto her clothes with child below. Not for the squeamish but the child is now well protected and out of sight. With her dead mothers body slumped forward.

  106. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:25 pm

    If it’s a manual, why did it not just stall?

    Unless dead bloke’s foot was to the floor…

    Explaining the haste RAF man placed on turning it off?

  107. Is that blood and brain matter on the shelf behind the rear seat? Or just my overactive imagination? Bright red.

  108. Does someone know whether this is consistent with any particular agency such as Mossad?

    For instance, some people have suggested that the family were in the wrong place at the wrong time when the French cyclist was the target. Is it really consistent to wipe out a family because they saw too much? If the cyclist was killed first and they saw that, how much could they really compromise things by witnessing it? Wouldn’t the assassin be protected by their agency in any case?

  109. [These original questions that I was surprised last week not to see addressed by the UK's top media sleuths are still up on the Guardian site. As the thread has been censored, then closed, I'd be interested to know how relevent they might be:]

    1: Why was Zainab, ‘the apple of her father’s eye’ treated so differently to the others visible in the car? Tortured and left for dead (not ‘spared’ as the UK press en masse told us, quite the reverse) outside the locked car, while the others visible to the killer(s) were ‘professionally executed’? In Hollywood, of course, the most likely gruesome answer is that brutalizing her might be the best way to get something (talk or something else) from the father before executing him and the witnesses.

    2: Why has nobody asked how a team of 20 or so ‘military style personnel’ from ‘the British embassy’ managed to get to the scene so quickly after the attack – in a robbery or criminal ‘hit’ this would be a very improbable development?

    3: Why did British reports, unlike the French, made a known family feud over an inheritance of less than a million pounds in total, so central, when a brother who would hardly avoid police attention would have little chance of profiting in any way from such a counterproductive ‘resolution’ of the family disagreement?

    4: Why would Mossad, who suffered severe diplomatic consequences from the assasination of a senior Hamas leader in Dubai, ‘simply’ because some of their team used fake British passports, risk the consequences of such a grotesque outrage against UK, French and Swedish citizens on French soil?

  110. Yeah it’s a 3-litre diesel, taxed till end of May 2013.

    The vehicle details for OE04 WJZ are:
    Date of Liability 01 05 2013
    Date of First Registration 12 08 2004
    Year of Manufacture 2004
    Cylinder Capacity (cc) 2993cc
    CO2 Emissions 192g/Km
    Fuel Type HEAVY OIL
    Export Marker N
    Vehicle Status Licence Not Due
    Vehicle Colour RED
    Vehicle Type Approval M1
    Vehicle Excise Duty rate for vehicle
    6 Months Rate £137.50
    12 Months Rate £250.00

  111. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:36 pm

    Mossad have been roaming the world topping anyone they want for years, they don’t worry if innocents happen to get in the way:

    “At 3:35 p.m. on January 22, 1979, as Salameh and four bodyguards drove down the street in a Chevrolet station wagon,[30] the explosives in the Volkswagen were detonated from the apartment with a radio device, killing everyone in the vehicle. After five unsuccessful attempts,[31] the Mossad had assassinated Salameh. However, the blast also killed four innocent bystanders, including a British student and a German nun, and injured 18 other people in the vicinity. Immediately following the operation the three Mossad officers fled without trace, as well as up to 14 other agents believed to have been involved in the operation.”

  112. I’m not sure that’s a reasonable comparison Dave. The example you give is incompetence, and is it really reasonable to compare the workings of this agency 30+ years ago to how it goes about its business today? It may have been incompetence to end up having witnesses to an assassination, but it seems like a level of malice beyond your example to kill a family to keep things safe. I still have my original confusion: would they really care that much if there was a family of witnesses?

  113. Lilian El-Doufani

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:44 pm

    How could a lone assassin kill three adult people with two bullets each to the head without anyone being able to get out of the car and run away? He would surely have had to walk around the car or stretch over to the rear seat/opposite side of the car and that would have taken a bit of time.

    So I sure don’t buy it was a lone assassin.

    I also suspect the ‘former RAF officer’ of being someone of interest.

    It is far too soon to push a theory of ‘family arguments over inheritance’. So why is that theory being shouted so loudly from the hilltops. Obfuscation if you ask me.

    I didn’t know the background of the other cyclist before I read your stuff. Your theory sounds more interesting.

    I think Israelis, criminals or Iraqis might not baulk at beating a child to get info. So might many others.

    Interesting …

  114. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 5:45 pm

    They’ve been murdering (innocent) Iranian scientists for years, and that bloke in the hotel in Dubai, and the IDF have been killing children in Palestine for ever.

    It’s clear the family were the targets, along with French cyclist.

  115. Anders7777 mentions this above, and I found it very strange that a fellow could be overtaken by another bicycle “a few minutes” before arriving on the scene, yet there was a sufficient gap between the British and French cyclists’ arrival times to allow all the carnage to go unwitnessed and unheard, not to mention the killers clearing off.

    One bicycle overtakes another – but even a fit young man overtaking a much older man would not make a large difference in their arrival time. The difference in their speed will still be fairly marginal. Say the Frenchman is doing 15mph (excessive, given it was uphill on a mountain bike). Say RAF-man is doing 10mph, and say the “few minutes” is as much as 6 minutes.

    6 minutes at RAF man’s speed means the spot, at 10MPH, would be one mile away . The Frenchman would have covered the mile – at 15MPH – in four minutes. It means there would be only two minutes for the killers to do the Frenchman in and disappear, with RAF-man under one-third of a mile away hearing nothing.

    Suggesting the Frenchman is travelling 50% faster than RAF-man, and “few” means six, is a very generous. We’re probably talking about well under a minute and a couple of hundred yards.

    *

    From the look of the DM picture it appears the rear of the car is partially buried in the bank. How long can an engine run with the exhaust choked up like that? Certainly not a full minute. More like a few seconds.

  116. YouTube is full of clips of IDF mistreating Palestinian children. And they’re not Mossad. Any suggestion that Mossad wouldn’t beat or shoot an Arab child is naive, in my book.

  117. “I think Israelis, criminals or Iraqis might not baulk at beating a child to get info. So might many others.”

    I don’t think there was time to beat anyone for info. I think the girl was shot while running away, and then clubbed on the head for good measure. Pistol whipped as they say.

  118. 25 shoots fired = 2 12 shot magazines plus 1 chambered, this explains why the girl was beaten about the head. The assassin had expended all his ammunition. Sky news yesterday an interview with a French official stated each of the dead had two bullet wounds, suggesting a double “tap”
    Seems clear to me.

  119. Dave,

    You have to differentiate between what would be expected of a small Mossad assassination team and what might be expected from the IDF.

    Craig Murray himself says that the poor British guy *likely* wasn’t involved in something that would put him on Mossad’s radar. I don’t know about the French cyclist but even if he was a target it seems implausible to me that an innocent family would be taken down by very deliberate gunfire. Again: if it was a politically motivated assassination team, is it really a disaster for them if the family witnessed the assassination of the cyclist? It’s not like his death was disguised as accidental!

  120. Taxed till end of April 2013, I should have said, not May.

    The round white mark at top centre of the windscreen is quite regular something a sticker or similar stuck on the inside, possibly an additional stuck on mirror, for towing (was the caravan taken over for each trip or, kept on the French site between trips, note too the childs pink bicycle inside the awning of the caravan which might have been brought over on the roof rack), or for better rearward vision for an occupant of the passenger seat.

    I’m resigned we (the public) will never get any credible explanation for these events.
    Further speculation can serve no purpose till the authorities report their own progress.

  121. Couple of posters inferred I was being a tad judgemental about Israeli and/or Arab propensity to ruthlessness. If so let’s be clear this is neither racism nor antisemitism: I’ve met and, occasionally back in the day, worked with both great people and utter shitweasels on both sides of that fence. I’ll reserve most of my calumny for their political masters if I may.

    We don’t know whether the killer/s knew they’d left the 7-year-old alive. Given that they (a) almost certainly did not know the 4-year-old was present, (b) shot the cyclist at longish range to bring him down and then fired skulltaps to finish him, I’d suggest they intended to kill everyone. (Yes, “longish range” with a typical 7.65mm handgun is anything over 10 feet!).

    This is exceptionally ruthless. I maintain that such calculated murder of young children is not a characteristic of western-trained soldiers. It is more a characteristic of people of exceptional fanaticism, whatever the motivation, often the kind that invokes God or Allah as justification for atrocity. To be fair, though, I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.

  122. “Why would Mossad, who suffered severe diplomatic consequences from the assasination of a senior Hamas leader in Dubai, ‘simply’ because some of their team used fake British passports, risk the consequences of such a grotesque outrage against UK, French and Swedish citizens on French soil?”

    What “severe diplomatic consequences”?

    Perhaps because it was very important, to them? Also chutzpah (like their neverending threats against Iran), a remote location, and not expecting to be identified. Which they haven’t been.

    What’s here is only speculation.

    “it seems implausible to me that an innocent family would be taken down by very deliberate gunfire”

    Which suggests al Hilli and family were deliberately executed. Either he was involved in something they didn’t like, or they thought he was. The family were killed as a warning to others. They may not have expected the children to be there, missed the four year old altogether, and only winged the seven year old as she tried to run.

  123. Grant

    25 shoots fired = 2 12 shot magazines plus 1 chambered, this explains why the girl was beaten about the head. The assassin had expended all his ammunition. Sky news yesterday an interview with a French official stated each of the dead had two bullet wounds, suggesting a double “tap”
    Seems clear to me.

    =====

    Read back

    This has been gone over several times

  124. “I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.”

    Such as, for example, so many bullets into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes?

  125. Yes, the two-mags theory is a good one if there was just one shooter with something like a Beretta (can’t remember the name – is it an 80?). Maybe I’d have expected him to have two spares (kind of rig that has gun on one side and a two-mag sleeve as counterweight on the other) but we can’t read his mind. I guess I am still surprised if there was just one shooter: for me, two would make much more sense.

    I’d agree that handguns seem much more likely than an SMG. If they’d had something like a Skorpion there would probably have been much more spraying. And handguns, especially those chambered for 7.65, can be very neat and concealable, not to mention favourites for use with a moderator.

    I’m getting into too much speculation and would leave it at: yes, this stinks of government-grade unpleasantness.

  126. >> “I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.”

    >>>> “Such as, for example, so many bullets into the head of Jean Charles de Menezes?”

    Good point. But I agree, that was a disgraceful panic by a police officer who should not have been authorised to carry a weapon. It was obvious that he lost control of his wee and kept squeezing the trigger till his mag was empty. Appallingly UN-professional.

    I wasn’t really thinking of police firearms officers: more of the special forces trained types. The triple-tap has been in favour ever since the late 70s at least, after it became obvious that even several 9mm centre-mass hits doesn’t guarantee a kill. With something as weedy as .32 you would certainly go for double-taps to centre mass, with one or two skulltaps after.

  127. Lilian El-Doufani

    10 Sep, 2012 - 6:20 pm

    I don’t understand why people describe this former RAF man as a ‘former RAf officer”. He may have had many roles during his life so far eg “former husband, former barman, former mechanic, former student” etc. None of these are mentioned. Are we supposed to conclude that the fact he was in the forces makes him above reproach? I have known of policeman and military men who were far from above reproach. I am struggling with this description of this witness. Are we to infer that, as a British (loyal and patriotic) ex-serviceman, he is whiter than white? It is not working for me. I need to know more. Perhaps this is a label the media gave him rather than the authorities. Even so, it worries me.

  128. dave brooker

    10 Sep, 2012 - 6:20 pm

    Given that al-Hilli dropped everything and went straight over to France, could it be that whoever the killers were had to do the same, thus not having the chance for the full team to be present?

    Be nice if builder man could remember if there was a bike ontop of the BMW when it drove past him…

  129. BTW, I’d assumed triples or quads. If it turns out to be doubles only … well, I’m surprised. But there’s the danger of speculation, I guess.

    Perhaps somebody could confirm exactly what the police have said?

  130. Everybody loves a whodunnit.
    Though in this case the sheer volume of coverage in the MSM as well as the shifting sands of the cover story justify the suspicion and conspiracy theories.

    Usually, the MSM is diffident to a fault when British passport holding nuclear scientists die suddenly:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1224377/British-nuclear-experts-17th-floor-UN-death-plunge-suicide.html

  131. Do you think RAFman knows Badgeman?

  132. The Telegraph whilst still peddling the family row and the bomb scare at the family home, reported yesterday that a friend had said Mr al Hilli had recently applied for a job at CERN.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9530821/France-shooting-two-shots-to-the-head-the-killers-were-ruthless.html

    Truth or more obfuscation?

  133. Lilian El-Doufani,

    Yes, this “ex-RAF” guy could be a nut-case who shot them all and is now happily back in Britain above suspicion. French police seem to be sure this is not the case for some reason.

  134. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 6:41 pm

    Here is the basic caravan route of the Al-Hilli family via Dordogne where their holiday home is, seems quite a trek towing a caravan:-

    http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/al-hilli-caravan-travel-route.html

  135. @Milton

    IRA marxist “freedom fighters” killed children you ignorant twat

  136. glenn
    10 Sep, 2012 – 5:51 pm

    I completely agree. But, how come these obvious questions are not asked on sky or bbc?

  137. @milton and grant

    Earlier on the thread

    See my post to Craig

    It seems as if everyone here on this thread is purposely spraying a lot of bullshit

    These new characters come along and haven’t had the decency to read the two threads before mouthing off

    Clearly, some of this is deliberate

    People pose questions, and no answrs are forthcoming

    Tis is frankly turning into a clusterfuck

    Just like the events at CHAVALINE

    @nuid

    French say they know how many guns and what type they were and what cartridges

    all they are confirming so far is 43 bullets and 7.65mm

    7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.

    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.

    Now – if two guns were used, both Beretta 70/71s, it still means each was reloaded 3 times or so…

    Camp site witnesses say they heard 30 seconds of automatic fire

    So that rules out 2 x Berettas

    I suggest one Beretta was used, and another gun, at least.

  138. BBC PM programme R4, correspondent in Annecy ; windy, pothold-filled road… Sounds like an ideal excursion on a bike (not).

    “lost a lot of blood”
    Like,er, not in that immaculate looking car interior.

    By the way, Craig, what do your “security services sources” say about Dr Kelly or Gareth Williams.

  139. ‘former RAf officer’, as Russians say, former is not a conceivable word and does not exist.

  140. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 6:52 pm

    BMW has GPS so could be tracked

    The Ex-Raf guy ‘Punched’ in the window!!

    Shell casings found inside the car!! If they were shot from outside thru the windows how are the casings inside??

    http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/al-hilli-bmw-with-gps-locked-doors.html

  141. “7.65mm suggests the Mossad weapon of choice, a Beretta 70 or 71. 8 rounds per chamber. The official story says 30 seconds firing. Witnesses talked of automatic fire, at a nearby camp site.
    Anyhoos that means at 8 per slide, one shooter would have to reload at least 5 times in 30 seconds.”

    UTV just reported 7.65mm, 10 per slide, and said the shooter had to reload ‘at least twice’.

  142. Felix thanks

    @Anders7777 et al
    There is a very full timeline in French at
    http://www.lemessager.fr/Actualite/Chablais/2012/09/05/article_messager_1623629.shtml
    Oddity: the absence in the timeline of unnamed the wife of Sylvain Mollier raising the alarm there. In fact this fact comes only from the Prosecutor who spread the rumour that the cyclist was the wrong person in the wrong place (Huff Post link 6 sept)
    Sylvain Mollier semble avoir été au mauvais endroit, au mauvais moment. Il est la seule victime non britannique de la tuerie de Chevaline.
    Ce père de famille, originaire d’Ugine, près d’Albertville en Savoie, était parti faire un tour de vélo, mercredi, du côté du lac d’Annecy tout proche. Il ne s’est pas rendu dans cette zone peu fréquentée, boisée et sans issue par hasard.

    Il avait pris la direction de Chevaline avec la ferme intention d’en découdre avec « une bonne petite montée ».
    En ne le voyant pas revenir, sa compagne a donné l’alerte.
    Sylvain Mollier venait d’avoir un fils, en juin dernier. Employé chez Cezus il était en congé parental. Ce quadragénaire était père de trois enfants.

    No mention of the wife there. This is what the Huff Post writes:
    His wife, worried when he did not return from his cycle ride, alerted the authorities, without making a link to the killings.

    She went to a local police station with a photograph of her husband. Officers quickly made the link and her husband was identified as the fourth victim.

    He found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time, Annecy prosecutor Eric Maillaud said.. Is this from the prosecutor?

    No interviews forthcoming from the wife – she is not a witness to anything one imagines. No doubt gagged.

    Notice also the deputy Mayor of Ugine, Michel Chevallier, who knew Sylvain Mollier and relayed the news to his wife, allegedly, on Wed 6 September lays out the official narrative:
    “Dans ma tête, je vois Sylvain arriver en vélo et une personne lui tirer dessus parce qu’il a été témoin d’un massacre”, raconte l’adjoint, ajoutant : “il serait passé peut-être cinq minutes avant, il serait tranquille, cinq minutes après, il aurait été le premier témoin de ce massacre, mais aujourd’hui il serait avec nous pour parler de ce massacre”.

    =====

    I’ll get back to you.

    I am very concerned at the amount of fucking CHAFF on this thread now.

    Nobody is addressing important points, and volume is crowding out important stuff.

    Like the absence of blood spatter for example

    =====

    “Never mind the quality, feel the width”

    Fucking-A

  143. “Shell casings found inside the car!! If they were shot from outside thru the windows how are the casings inside??”

    Hand through the car window.

    Got to go. Been indisposed all day.

  144. @Anders – it is more likely to be a Berettat 81 or 82. The 81 has a double stacked magazine with 12 round capacity, while the 82 has a single stacked magazine with 9 round capacity. src: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beretta_Cheetah

    Where is it reported that there were 43 shot fired? I can only find reports of 25. If it was 25, then that could be 2 x 12 mags, plus one in the chamber.

    Sky are reporting that the 7 year old has briefly spoken to the Police – but no info released.

  145. ‘BBC PM programme R4, correspondent in Annecy ; windy, pothold-filled road… Sounds like an ideal excursion on a bike (not).’

    That is a completely bizarre statement! You can’t avoid wind as a cyclist and you’re not going to avoid potholes in many parts of the world either!

  146. Thank goodness I am not the only person questioning this whole thing. All very smelly.
    As a complete novice, but a logical thinker, I was surprised that nothing had been mentioned earlier about the French cyclist and whether he was the target.
    And how lucky that a RAF vet discovered them all??? And the distraught neighbour was suddenly able to give incredible TV interviews. An ex-journalist btw…
    Please keep this string running. It is so important that we do not just accept the information we are spoonfed by media – and whoever feeds them……

  147. Ross Jonathan

    10 Sep, 2012 - 7:03 pm

    Anyone remember Gareth Williams, the Maths prodigy who was found dead in a sports holdall in a bath tub?

    According to Ch4, he made unauthorised searches (hacks) – but this case is very similar.

    According to the Daily Mail, Mr al-Hilli was on a ‘blacklist’ if that’s the case then Mo$$ad are working in cahoots with BritSpooks!

  148. Anders,

    Where are you getting 43 shots from. Do you have a link?

  149. Why did the killer leave ?

    A jammed ?
    No Amo ?
    Convinced all were dead (surely the 4 yr old was crying by now ?).

    OR … He didn’t leave ???

    He was still there…or had died already ?

  150. Lets face it, if some party wanted to “out” an internal risk, then I would need a pretty good “honeytrap” to do this.
    And if my opporsition had (lets say) aquired something they knew little about….like a “U.S. Drone”

    And I had a specialist in the “spy satelite” industry.
    Who hated America.
    Was an ex “Iraqi”.
    And a Muslim.
    Well that would make an excellent “false flagger” to me.

    If my “plan” went as expected, then….

    “Cyclist Shot Dead In Forest. Police Hunt Underway”

    ….would be the headline in Le Monde.

    And within a week, all of Paris would struggle to remember his name. Cold case…. Job done…..!

    I read somewhere (News coverage) that his wife had said he was “riding a new route”.
    Now when I look, there’s nada.
    I like “early” news reports. Things often “pop out”.

  151. James,

    No reason to assume 4 yr old was crying. She kept silent for hours afterwards we are told because she didn’t know who the “good guys and bad guys were”. Last words she heard from her mother were probably a whispered “stay quiet”.

  152. Or she…

  153. If the French cyclist was indeed the target, as DenPenn suggests above, the story makes even less sense. Earlier posts (including my own) illustrate that the French cyclist would have arrived on the scene an absolute maximum of a couple of minutes before the RAF cyclist.

    If the French cyclist was the target, he’d have to be killed the moment he arrived. Then this family show up in the BMW and have to be destroyed too, can’t leave witnesses and all that. So all this goes down in barely over a minute, then the hit-men clear off, without the RAF guy hearing anything at all.

    Surely any hit-squad would be familiar enough with amnesia drugs, such as Versed (pronounced Verse-Ed, alternatively called Midazolam), which are pretty easy to apply and wipe out all memories from the past 15 minutes or so? It seems likely something like Versed was employed in cases where victims/ witnesses have a mysterious and total lack of memory.

    They wouldn’t have to kill everyone – just get the drug administered at gunpoint if necessary. So it seems far more likely they wanted all of them dead, they also wanted to send a message, and RAF-man – a guy with apparently impeccable credentials, although anonymous – had to be in on it.

  154. About the four year-old… anyone consider it totally remarkable that she managed to stay quiet and still for such a protracted period? Anyone ever known a 4yo to obey a whispered “Be quiet” under any circumstances, let alone one as dramatic as this?

  155. Hi Bajer

    I have a very good memory and I remember the following

    15

    25

    30

    43

    Like a progression series

    This was absolutely NO lone gunman whatsoever

    And probably more “magic bullets” to come.

    A reference to Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby.

  156. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 7:22 pm

    French cyclists wife not reporting him missing

    -The French cyclist was on paternity leave so perhaps the mother was pre-occupied with a young baby. Wouldnt you need your husband to come back to give you a rest from the baby.
    I hope someone has checked that baby is with mother ok.

  157. “Stay quiet”…..

    And then an arch reverse… with an impact and shattering glass ?

  158. Was Al Hilli lured there…..?

    OR

    Was Al Hilli indeed the “lure” ?

  159. Anders,

    Where are you getting 43 shots from. Do you have a link?

    Alas no, but I heard it yesterday. I also heard 30 shots mentioned. Now the batardz are settling on 25 to fit their massaged fairytale.

    Btw they must be laughing their arses off at this thread.

    I’ve never see so many shills in my life on two threads!

    Craig’s problem is he doesn’t require registration, so anyone can make up a name and donald@duck id and post, even impersonate others.

    Dearie me.

  160. Anders7777,

    The only reference to 43 shots I have seen is in posts from you. There doesn’t seem to be any other source for this.

    So if you have a very good memory, where did you hear or see 43?

  161. Anders7777,

    People can post any number they want in forums and I’ve seen numbers pulled out of the air elsewhere. I have never seen a figure higher than 25 mentioned by the French authorities. If you have then that’s interesting but a link would be helpful.

  162. Am I missing something here? We only have the ex-RAF guy’s word about the timing of the French cyclist and this thread clearly has that guy still on the suspect list.

    Fabulous thread. Major relief to read genuine attempts to make sense of what info is available, here and elsewhere, after the opportunistic crap of some so-called crime reporters.

    Attention of all spook agencies should be drawn to this thread so that when they come up with their story they will have to have covered all the points raised here. That should keep them busy for a while.

  163. “A reference to Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby”.

    But that was fab.
    They released an edit of the “film” !

    The car stopped. They took that out.
    For a laugh YouTube it, then watch the windscreen go behind the sign…and come out again.

    Hence…here to, an “ex RAF man” !
    It’s all in clear view.

  164. straw44berry

    10 Sep, 2012 - 7:33 pm

    Glenn, I posted this on David Icke yesterday:-

    Doesnt the 4 year olds ‘good men from bad men’ mean that her father often used that language to describe people in front of his daughter. Perhaps even telling her that if there is a bad man around she must stay quiet and still for as long as possible. When you are 4, an hours car journey seems like a lifetime. So unless she has had it stressed time and time again how vital staying quiet may be to her.
    Children are usually taught dont talk to strangers but not that the world has good men and bad men unless she has been in such situations before. Poor child.

  165. The 43 shots originated here:- http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1061031408
    (post 350, later picked up on by Anders7777)
    the French police still say 25 shots.

  166. The answer may be difficult but in my opinion the question is simple;

    Iran, Iraq or Israel?

    For all the failings of the West’s intelligence services they don’t do this sort of stuff, unless perhaps your surname is Bin Laden. (May the good Lord in whatever guise look after those two children.)

  167. Anders,

    The mods have all our IP addresses and we’ll all be getting Ipsos MORI surveys at our door. Well I did this afternoon. I’ll assume this is coincidence unless half the posters on the thread chime in with same :-)

  168. How “slow” was “Mr Ex RAF man” going….when he was overtaken ???

  169. Daniel… I quote

    “Iran, Iraq or Israel?”

    OR British ?

  170. This whole case is bizarre. So much of what we “know” relies on the word of the Ex-RAF chap, as Polo says above.

    As soon as the neighbour came out and started talking about this guy’s finances I smelt a rat. Not only is it thoroughly un-British to discuss such matters (let alone other people’s), but surely it is prejudicial to any legal case or police investigation? So what was the motive?

    The shed pantomine this morning was something else! :)

  171. Have been looking at various crime photos from Europe (less squeamish than our press) and reading some US sites and it looks like the windscreen has been shot at with fan like crazing coming out from the impact. Some 32 rounds (FMJ) can penetrate windscreens but unlikely that hollow point could. However hollow points may be less likely to exit the body mean no exit wound blood, only from the entry so most blood may be on the victims but depending on the type/load of ammo (ie that used by Air Marshalls) the entry may be small and the bullet stays in the victim. Angle of the shot looks a bit ropey though if the shooter was standing (almost in the dash).

    The only blood I think I can see trails down the back seat onto the seat pad. Strange why passenger seat is empty but if SAH had been here for some time then wife possibly may have changed seats to talk to mother.

    Mainstreams are now claiming the work of a single shooter. If this was “tip of the spear” would expect at least two shooters. Can’t get my head around the number of cases though. If this was single shooter possibly chatol, using say a 12 shot Beretta then we are looking at two reloads. Is the whole 30 second gunfire thing valid? If so then we have 12 shots accounted for in wounds, were the al Hillis hit anywhere other the the head? Now if our shooter was trained in the Negev they don’t spend two years learning how to waste shots. These guys are cold, once the driver is down then quickly hit the others but he would have to be very special to hit both wmen twice in the head from one side of the car so maybe he moved round the car all this takes time. Doesn’t explain why clean for the al Hillis but five shots for the cyclist? Main target?

  172. or ‘local lunatic’

  173. “I maintain that such calculated murder of young children is not a characteristic of western-trained soldiers.” Milton.

    Once again, as with the excellent commentator, Durak on the previous thread relating to this subject, may I suggest we look in detail at some of the things which some “western-trained soldiers” have done over the years. And we would be taking about assassination squads, ex-Special Forces and/or ‘Ollie’s Army’. In fact, let’s look at what “western-trained soldiers” – mercenaries and regular troops – have done in Africa during C20th and onwards. And in Northern Ireland (much of which we hear little about). I cannot see how we can retain such illusions. I understand why we would want to – my God, it is difficult to comprehend how anyone could do such things to anyone, let alone a child. It is sickening to any person with an iota of humanity. But such people who do such things have jettisoned their humanity long ago. They’d have to, to do what they do – damn them to Hell (whoever they were/are).

  174. Ian,

    Thanks. Post 349 by Velma (from Scooby Doo) seems to be source of “43″ . Arrived at by

    I read that the three victims in the car had been shot four times each, twice in the head. The injured child had been shot once and the French cyclist, five times, twice in the head, a “double tap.” there were also 25 spent cartridges inside the vehicle. That makes a total of about 43 shots to murder five people, four of whom died.

    So just added a calculated number to the stated 25.

  175. I also wish people would avoid the British ex-snooker commentator’s site. His mixture of serious and nonsense material serves only to discredit the former by association. And associating CM’s site with the British ex-snooker commentator’s site risks discrediting the CM site by association.

  176. “Have been looking at various crime photos from Europe (less squeamish than our press) and reading some US sites and it looks like the windscreen has been shot at with fan like crazing coming out from the impact”

    Suggests car was reversing in an arch.

    Driver “disabled”, hence the mud on the rear wheels. (BMW Dynamic control really works. as the other side shut off !)

  177. From French media reports as far bas as Friday – “25 douilles ont été trouvées à l’extérieur du véhicule.”

    Translates as “25 bullet casings were found outside the vehicle.” – Not inside.

  178. If it is 25 shots, then with a Beretta 81 there is only one change of magazine (assuming there’s a round in the chamber). There may have been only one shooter, but he was unlikely to have been alone. Motorbike and 4×4 (and possibly a white car).

  179. Suhayl….. quote the “western-trained soldiers”

    Look up ” “Loughgall” in N.I.

    This shooting has gone wrong. The lure may have been Al-Hissi.
    The target, the Frenchman.

  180. Some facts, links and names and a time tabel:

    first google for the following names:
    Adlene Hicheur
    SILEX
    RAL

    Additional Link about RAL:
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1991NIMPB..56..521W

    Both Hicheur and al-Hilli worked for RAL (Rutherford Appleton Laboratory) and apparently it is said and it was also published that they worked for SILEX experiments at RAL and that both of them knew how to use SILEX to create nuclear material for weapons, as they both apparently worked for the top secret SILEX experiments at RAL. Hicheur was even sent to CERN as a RAL representative. Al Hilli worked about a so called “particle acccelerator” at RAL (stands “particle accelerator” for a SILEX beamer ?).

    It is apparent the Hicheur had all the plans and the know how for SILEX and that al-Hilli apparently had those plans, too.

    Hicheur was imprisoned several years ago for apparent links to Al-Qaida and terror plans which he denied (google “Adlene Hicheur”).

    On May 9th 2012, Hicheur was sentenced to 5 years in prison by French justice because of terror threats.
    On May 15th 2012, only 6 days later, Hicheur was going free because of “good behaviour”. Was that good behaviour that he did unite with the French authorities and apparently told them about who else had the SILEX know how and experience?
    http://aseerun.org/2012/05/17/brother-adlene-hicheur-is-free/

    On May 21st, only 6 days later, German and French nuclear scientist warned in press releases about terrorists and “criminal” countries about perhaps getting access to top secret SILEX devices.

    It is said by eye witnesses, that al-Hilli became nervous at about the time right after his former collegue at RAL, with whom he worked (for SILEX research?), Mr. Hicheur was going to be released from jail because of his “6 days good behaviour” (whatever could also mean: “good cooperation with French secret services”).

    There is no doubt that Al-Hilli had a meetiung with somebody at the lonely parking lot in Annecy mountains, a very lonely and secluded environment. People living there said when being interviewed, that this is NOT AN area where tourists are usually going because there is nothing to see nor anything to do nor to walk at the end of that street. One of the local abutters said, that they had never seen any tourist families with children driving up that road because this is no place for children for walking nor for doing anything else there.

    Apparently Mr. Al-Hilli had a meeting there. Did he try to sell the plans of still top secret SILEX parts, plans, devices to somebody? Or else, did he try to purchase zirconium or something else for his perhaps small and private SILEX accelerator device?

    Of course it is just an accident that there was als a RAF guy at the scene whose name was and will never be published, plus there was a French security guy (who was employed as a security in France’s largest nuclear facility, namely that cyclist who was killed) and they were both at the scene at the same time, at a scene in a pretty lonely place in “nowhere”.

    Of course, we also know that Iran still holds a 10% share in nuclear company Eurodif who owns Areva who owns Cezus (where the French cyclist was employed). Eurodif became popular with another assasination when Georges Besse was killed in a pretty similar way in 1986. Officially he was killed by left wing activists, however, due to the investigation by the great journalist Dominique Lorentz the truth was in fact that he was killed by the Iran secret service because 10% shareholder Iran “wasn’t feeling to be treated well enough by Eurodif”.

    Let’s add up everything:
    Hicheur and al-Hilli both worked as collegues for RAL where they apparently worked for the top secret SILEX project that doesn’t officially exist at RAL. Later, Hicheur who now works for RAL at the CERN project), is apparently linked with Al-Qaida while we don’t know anything yet about any possibilities of al-Hillis links to any terror organisations. When Hicheur is sentenced to prison and released only 6 days later because of “good behaviour”, then at about the same time al-Hilli is getting nervous as his neighbours said. Last week, al-Hilli and his family are assassinated at a place where we also find a cyclist who is employed at Cezus (=Eurodif) plus we also find a RAF member at the same scene. Pure accident, isn’t it?

    Another pure accident is that today they found dangerous devices in al-Hilli’s home that weren’t “such dangerous” in the end. Of course, the pretty good British police was in urgent need for help from the Royal Logistics Corps today. Usually British police doesn’t need a special military unit for support if they simply find some explosives. However, what did they find in al-Hillis garage? Bits of nuclear material? They’ll never tell us in public.

    Let’s ask ourselves: Who would have a strong interest for SILEX device plans and who would have a strong interest for SILEX devices still staying top secret?

  181. Milton

    Couple of posters inferred I was being a tad judgemental about Israeli and/or Arab propensity to ruthlessness. If so let’s be clear this is neither racism nor antisemitism: I’ve met and, occasionally back in the day, worked with both great people and utter shitweasels on both sides of that fence. I’ll reserve most of my calumny for their political masters if I may.

    We don’t know whether the killer/s knew they’d left the 7-year-old alive. Given that they (a) almost certainly did not know the 4-year-old was present, (b) shot the cyclist at longish range to bring him down and then fired skulltaps to finish him, I’d suggest they intended to kill everyone. (Yes, “longish range” with a typical 7.65mm handgun is anything over 10 feet!).

    This is exceptionally ruthless. I maintain that such calculated murder of young children is not a characteristic of western-trained soldiers. It is more a characteristic of people of exceptional fanaticism, whatever the motivation, often the kind that invokes God or Allah as justification for atrocity. To be fair, though, I’d concede that the sheer professionalism of the hit in all other respects strikes me as troublingly, well, “western”.

    =====

    Problem with a.

    The hit was totally pro.

    They knew SAH had two kids.

    He would have been observed leaving the camp site. Kids in tow.

    The hit team knew both girls were in the car.

    Things fucked up when the team were forced to move, whilst one kid was OUTof the car.

    Why?

    Because RAFman was going to arrive within a minute or so, according to the spotter down the hill.

    Kidon teams

    Observer

    Driver

    Helper

    Shooter

    Although I suggest the helper in this case was also a soother

    Maybe.

  182. That ex flying squad guy (name escapes me) said he thought it was significant there were no shots through front window. He claimed there was a significant risk bullet would bounce off a modern BMW front windscreen (but not the side windows) which a professional hit team would know but not those who just watch movies.

    True or false anyone know?

  183. I strongly suggest there were.

  184. Don’t know if my long essay with facts and links will ever appear here.

    So I tell you one word only:
    Google for “SILEX”

    That’s the key and the missing link both for RAL, al-Hilli, his former RAL collegue Hicheur, and even for today’s participation of the Royal Logistics Corps in al-Hilli’s home search!

  185. Laminated glass is hard to shatter…and at an angle (and moving) it is really hard to do.

    The 7.62 round wasnt that good in the Lalkland Is, fron and FN SLR ya know….forget what you have been told.

  186. we must move forward. Is there any news of a helicopter being spotted or a green 4×4 at a local airstrip?

    I still believe that the car had a tracker, mobile triangulation involves too many people,afaik. maybe that was RAfmans job, to clean up. He was supposed to pick up the shells was pre occupied with the girl.

    I’m somewhat swayed that the attackers knew the whole plot, if there was a handover, they knew that it was from the french cyclist to Al Hilli and decided to make sure that everyone knows that industrial espionage/clandestine deals does/do not pay. The french cyclist was the example set.
    Anything short of going for a drink with the builders will not get us any further…

    The dig digs at his home is probably just to divert the media’s attention, give them something to write about and take snaps of, inconsequential unless he has cached some info, had some sticks buried for keepsake?

  187. I think.

    Close shots at the North of the carpark….and round fired on the reverse (hitting the screen) followed up by more shots at the “end point” of the vehicle.

    Who ? A mad mad ??? Or “someone else” thus equiped.

  188. It’s okay, Andres7777 at 7:57pm, I wasn’t suggesting that about you. Just that ought not to have any illusions. When people say ‘western-trained, well, that would include many of the world’s dictators and their death squads. But I think what was meant was ‘Western’ as in European/North American, etc. And I was suggesting we not harbour illusions there either. Think too of the School of the Americas and Central America. Having said all that, taking everything into account, I think this is most likely to have been MOSSAD.

  189. “That ex flying squad guy (name escapes me) said he thought it was significant there were no shots through front window. He claimed there was a significant risk bullet would bounce off a modern BMW front windscreen (but not the side windows) which a professional hit team would know but not those who just watch movies.

    True or false anyone know?”

    True. The guy you are talking about is John O’Connor – and he is one of the few commentators who have stuck their necks out and said that it is likely State sponsored. A 7.65mm round is a lightweight round and it would be unlikely to penetrate a windscreen and kill a target – and as he says, it might even bounce off a windscreen if shot from far enough away. Professional shooters use 7.65mm (.32ACP) weapons because they are easier to silence. They do however have to be used in close quarters, and the shooters, where possible, will always follow up with additional shots (usually to the head), to ensure a kill.

  190. Those asking about 43, I have be been on this thread, GLP, and Icke for dayz.

    You guys find it, I am fed up babysitting lazy bastards. I’ve been doing it and wasting hours.

    First reports said one woman had no gun injuries at all!

    The story MORPHS ALL THE TIME.

    Is it any surprise that 43 gets reduced to a more tidy 25???

    Jesus – suddenly no wounds in any woman. Any victim. Then the old hoary “double tap” crap starts making the rounds with the meedja, who are Tavistock controlled whotrs, and this mindfuck plays out according to the whims of the players.

    I guarantee you a ton of shills have been posting disinformation on these two Ctaig threads for days now, and I guaranty you most amateur sleuths have not a clue what they are talking about here.

  191. Can eveyone “interested” just put their “who did it” and a “Why”…
    and as briefly as possible, then we have something to compare.

    Mine.

    Al Hilli was the lure(the false flagger)
    The Frenchman, the naughty fish.
    The exRAF, the “what came to be” the sorter outer.

    The plan… Le Monde posts “Frenchman Killed In Wee Small Village”

  192. In reply to …“Even the Mossad would likely balk at killing young children”

    Killing chidren is a father to son tradition in Israhell.

    “In this operation, which was for many years to be regarded as a model raid because of the high standard of its execution, twenty houses were blown up over their inhabitants, and some sixty Arabs were killed, most of them women and children.”

    Source: An article by Israeli historian Arieh Vitzhaqi from the April 14, 1972, issue of the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, translated in “From the Hebrew Press,” Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 1, no. 4 (summer 1972), p. 145. Also quoted in Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, p. 88; and Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 21-22.

    Location: Safad district

    Alternate spellings: Sa’sa

  193. Anders,

    First report said no immediately visible wounds on one victim. but they made clear that would probably change once they moved the bodies. I’ve been following this since the beginning as well and despite being Anon my email and logged IP have posted to this blog on and off for a long time. I’m not some new arrival. Again if you have another source for 43 please post it. As right now it seems to come from a mistake by Velma on the David Icke forum.

  194. Thanks James, will check out the Northern Ireland reference.

    As for ‘whodunnit’, well it’s pure speculation of course. But I’d say MOSSAD (and not because I reflexively blame everything on MOSSAD/Israel, but simply because they seem the most likely in this configuration) with cooperation from France. If it’d been in London/England in the 1970s, I’d have said, ‘Iraq’ dunnit (as that’s what was happening then in London/England to Iraqi exiles).

  195. This is the link I have missed to post.

    Actually, this was a press release given to the public press “accidentally” only 6 days(!!!) after Mr. Hicheur – (al-Hillis former collegue at RAL whwre they both apperently worked for the top secret SILEX experiments) – was released from French prison.

    http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3085/silex-iran-laser-uranium-enrichment

  196. “Snooker Loopy” Forum as someboby suggested…. for the “lets jump loads of relevant stuff”…..and make our own up !

    Or the Dept of “Mis information”.

    Back to topic.

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