Iran and Israel are both guilty of repeated abuse of human rights. In Iran, the jailing of Roxana Saberi for spying is an injustice, and a deliberate slap in the face to genuine overtures from Obama to cool the diplomatic temperature. But it is a comparatively small transgression in Iran, a country which executes gays and radically curtails freedom of speech, the rights of women and numerous other freedoms that should be universal.
Now let us look at Israel. Israel is indeed a country founded on a racist premise and based on massive ethnic cleansing, and where racial discrimination is built in to the legal fabric of the country. That situation is getting worse, not better.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2009/04/institutional_r.html
The BBC reports President Ahmadinejad today at the UN anti-racism conference thus:
Mr Ahmadinejad, the only major leader to attend the conference, said Jewish migrants from Europe and the United States had been sent to the Middle East after World War II “in order to establish a racist government in the occupied Palestine”.
He continued, through an interpreter: “And in fact, in compensation for the dire consequences of racism in Europe, they helped bring to power the most cruel and repressive racist regime in Palestine.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8008572.stm
I have not seen a full text and do not know what else he said. But insofar as the above s accurate, I in fact broadly agree with it. The only real point of dispute would be the extent to which people were sent as opposed to just went. But the general argument seems to me factually indisputable. Whether he is the best person to say it, given Iran’s own human rights record, is another question.
So there is hypocrisy from Israel, from Iran, and fom the Western countries including the UK who theatrically walked out of the speech.
There is a fascinating quote from Peter Gooderham, UK Ambassador and our representative at the conference:
Speaking to the BBC Radio 4’s PM programme, he said of the Iranian leader’s accusation of Israeli racism: “That is a charge we unreservedly condemn and so we had no hesitation at that point in leaving the conference hall.”
Which is interesting as the FCO used to acknowledge institutionalised racism, enshrined in legislation, as a major problem in Israel. One more New Labour step appears to have been taken down the Zionist road.
you are the racist. Insanity is no excuse. you are quite simply an anti-semite. the idea of you making rational
points about Iran or Israel is pathetic. you are quite simply a racist idiot. the fact that you have mental problems is no excuse.
Oh well, at least they won’t give this kardinal a seat in the Lords.
Or will they? The mind boggles.
Ignore the above (kardinal). At least you take the trouble to think for yourself and frame an argument. I almost ashamed to say that the vast majority of the time I heartily agree with you. I must be a pushover.
Did you hear the speech Obama has just made to the CIA. Encouraging, I think: definitely an iron fist in the velvet glove he stroked the CIA’s ego with.
Kardianal
Your attack is depressing but not surprising.
“Racism” is a poorly defined concept. It can mean one thing to one person, another to a second. Some people argue that it can only be applied to the opression of “black” people by “white” people. Others contend that it only applies to individuals not governments. Both these definitions are in my view intellectually barren approaches, deployed mainly to cover the inadequacy of the arguments of the debater. You may have another definition.
Beccause of this confusion it is in my view a term we should avoid. It also tends to be used more as a means of bullying opponents than for any coherent argument.
But if racism involves the belief that one race is superior to another, the argument that the state of Israel is predicated on a form of racism is one that merits scrupulous examination.
Equally, the notion that anyone who criticises the state of Israel, however well-argued the criticism, is a racist is quite simply illogical, untenable and contemptible.
You really should learn to think rationally before you post. Hysteria is rarely an effective tool of debate.
I make the rather more mundane crtiticism that Israel is a racist state because racial criteria are built into numerous pieces of Israeli legislation.
That was me – the computer keeps being determined to say I am whoever posted last!
That’s all right Craig
But I still think that using the term “racist” by either side is unhelpful as it just gives ammunition to the trolls…
Kardinal,
Being called a ‘racist idiot’ by someone who is clearly merely an angry idiot is of little concern… Learn to construct a proper, coherent sentence for a start, then maybe we’ll start taking you a little more seriously.
The fact all of those muppets walked out when a, forgive the expression, ‘spade’ was called a ‘spade’ just speaks volumes about what many of us already know about these collusive, conniving and deceitful bunch of snakes.
“The fact all of those muppets walked out when a, forgive the expression, ‘spade’ was called a ‘spade’ just speaks volumes”
I thought they looked like a crowd of self-righteous, pompous, racists twits, frankly. And I’m not fan of Ahmadinejad.
Yes, racism, God, Holocaust etc.. All very loaded terms. For such terms any debate should be in reverse.
‘I thought they looked like a crowd of self-righteous, pompous, racists twits, frankly. And I’m not fan of Ahmadinejad.’
They sure did. Where were the Iraq War mass walkouts?
Craig,
Long before you raised the issue of racism it was obvious that ‘kardinal’ is a Zionist attack dog.
Israeli racism is of a different order to any other racism any where. It is worse than 1960’s South Africa in its legal oppression of non-Jews, in its separation of communities and by the most chilling measure of all, its body count.
You say Obama’s overtures are genuine. I wonder. Obama is a slick salesman presenting, superficially, a new American face to the world…….but he has already turned through 180 degrees on nearly every promise that he made that got him elected.
He was funded by Wall Street. He is therefore owned by Wall Street. He has surrounded himself with the same old financiers and Neo-Cons that have brought us financial collapse and middle-eastern wars.
The most terrifying figure in his employ is the man handling Iranian affairs at the State Department……one Dennis Ross.
This man is an ex-chairman of various pro-Israel lobby groups. See here:
http://mantiqaltayr.wordpress.com/2009/04/19/dennis-ross-must-resign/
Obama? Genuine Overtures?……if this is his point man, I very much doubt it.
I’m very proud of Ahmadinejad! and his comments were very correct about the zionist entity.
All media outlets seemed to have ignored one detail; Jewish campaigners distributed leaflets asking attendents to leave the hall when Ahmadinejad start his speech!!
The leaflet was shown on Aljazeera by their reporter!!
Now when you hear delegates left because of what Iranian president said don’t take it.. you know they staged this protest before he even speak…
Zionist entity is a racist state whose soldiers celebrate murdering children and proudly print this on their Tshirts….. this is the truth
Craig, thanks for posting this. I thought that you might have something to say on the topic whilst I listened to the BBC R4 news bulletin yesterday evening. The double standards of our miserable representatives – as illustrated by their stupid walk-out – just beggars belief.
Why is it considered such an awful thing to declare Israel a racist state when the facts on the ground are as they are? I have an interesting handout, from PSC I think, which lists the myriad of legal restrictions and bureaucratic burdens placed on Israeli Arabs; it’s a horrifying read, and it is a shame that such open discrimination is not better covered in the UK media.
Israel is a land stealing, genocidal, racist state worse than Apartheid South Africa ever was. Even Jews of different ethnicity are discriminated against.
This makes enlightening reading;
The Life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=5379
“We believe she should be freed immediately, that the charges against her are baseless and that she has been subjected to a process that has been non-transparent, unpredictable (and) arbitrary”
So said Hilary.
On reading this I figured that Roxana Saberi was residing/existing in full orange jumpsuit at the pleasure of US Gov. in
Guantanamo Bay.(strangely in Cuba)But no.
“…including the UK who theatrically walked out of the speech..”
I recall no such walking out during the indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza Dec 2008-Jan 2009
All I can say is that it’s quite refreshing to have a politician tell the truth.
look at any paper from england during 1981 and 1982 and you will see how england was bending backwards to criticise israle and woo arabs because at that time arabs were organised enough to demand respect and england was faagainst israle in ost policy in order to take arab orders for its rubbish planes -nimrod–which never materialised.
HOW THE JEWS HAVE BEEN USED AND AllOWED THEMSELVES TO BE USED FOR BENEFIT OF PARAISITC ANGLOSAXON RACE.
very true -in fact so called jewish’s lobby” power is a propaganda done by the english race to hide thier nefarious iterference in the american ploicy to uinflunce american domestic and foreing policy for the benefit of england.
1999.
how england has used jews for the benfit of english race only and for deliberatily creating disruption in Europe.
England had threatened israel in 1948 during israeli war of indepdence that england would use atom bomb agaisnt israel unless israel stop ddrowning royal air foarce palnes and pilots who were helping Jordan against israel.
the same england was in upsroar in july 1981 when isrea;l attakced iraq’s nuclear reactor-just check out theier papers of the time
the same ngland was leading charge agasint isreal in june 82 when isreal attacked palestinain terrorists inside lebanon-that was at t time when england was in illegal occupation for malvinas island.
that is short glimpse of how much england and anglosaxon race care about jews and israel.
look at editorails of the times, the newsweek during those crucial perios of june 82 and see how they(the TImes, the gaurdian, BBC, ITV) were suggesting that israel or atleast tel aviv should be bombed.-just chek the british papers and bbc clips from april 82 to august 82.Also check those british bastrds joutrnlism hist in the month of summer 1981 when iraqi nuclear planty was bombed by the isralis and the british were the first-along with iraq -to protest agasint the israeli action.
It is very interesting that the same type of english people(who are anti-communists, anti-blacks, anti-muslims, anti-catolics) started the same sort of propaganda(like used against russians and communists) against The Germans.the Frenchs and Europeans in general. First England did not want germany united(though during cold war it suggested that only Russians are against it). soon after German reunification and even before disintegration of Soviet union ,England changed the lie-tactics(through media and government) against Europe. There is one more thing. nato was supposed to counter warsaw pact, with the latter gone there was no discussion as to nato should be wound uop or not. Europe does not need nato. Europe can have and should have her own defence system as is the Germo-Franco_Italian_Spanish collaboration. that European defence pact must be stengthened rather than germany supporting nato. Actually england needs nato to prop up its nasty influence in military matters. With the help of usa and nato has england been able to prop up her influence. In fact england is ant-Europe and through nato it wants to keep a tab on european affairs and not let Europe get strong on her own. As england can not do this own her own it has let America involved in it(during empire days england hardly shared power with America but it needs America now). Germany or Europe does not need nato. In fact nato is the greatest enemy(through england)of germany and europe. How can england be so much anti-Germany,working dso much against German interests and be a major parterner in common defence pact?It is a ludicrous situation.
John D. Monkey wrote:
“But I still think that using the term “racist” by either side is unhelpful as it just gives ammunition to the trolls…”
Don’t tell me… dumb-dumb bullets!?
Racism isn’t the problem so much as the symptom of arrogance. To stop racism is like trying to cure bubonic plague by lancing the bubo.
I’m not really that knowledgable on the historiography avatar singh, but some of your points I agree with. I think we need to start identifying power broker individuals within systems/nations more and more. We also need to highlight the undemocratic inadequacies of the models in which they operate that permit them to act irresponsibly. It’s way too easy to say ‘England’, ‘Israel’, U.S.A. etc. and I do it too often myself. We need to deconstruct more and get to the nitty gritty of things to best understand what’s going on. As much as anyone can understand that is, as we do all make it up as we go along.
Craig,
I have just got back from a 12 hour flight. I am a bit drunk and jet-lagged.
I read your book
Murder in Samarkand
In as Close as I think You Can Get on Planet Earth
To
HEAVEN
And I
Was Reading
About
HELL
You Really Are a Truly Courageous and Lovelly Human Being
Thank You For Writing
I wish you well Craig on the 28th. I admire your stance, that of Michale Moores, that of Mark Thomas, and that of George Galloway, amongst many other.
My mother way a sceptic on George Galloway and how he took money for oil in Iraq. I provided her with information from the web, her viewpoint undestandably changed.
As for the first post from Karndinal…..well all I can say is its wasting real estate space on my screen….another one who needs to learn what it is to be educated I suppose!
Tony
I deleted your last two comments because they rambled a lot. But the short answer is it’s a public hearing on the 28th and I would be delighted if you came. No dreass code as far as I know.
I’m with you Craig but I think you’re rather bold declaring that the jailing of that woman is an injustice. It’s entirely possible that she is a spook. We have no idea one way or t’other.
What is certain though, is that there WILL be CIA spooks in Iran. And given the history of journos on the CIA payroll I see no reason to assume that it’s implausible.
As for Obama’s genuine overtures, um… maybe. So far it’s all talk. If he un-sics the security council from the business of Iran’s nuclear industry then we’ll know for sure. Not that matters nuclear are any of the security council’s business. That’s what the IAEA is for. And they’ve given Iran a clean bill of health any number of times. And not forgetting that Iran agreed to inspections protocols way beyond what anyone else has ever been subjected to. All this in pursuing their ‘inalienable right’ (as per the NPT) to have a nuclear power industry. Meanwhile Israel, who never signed the NPT and has never been inspected and actually does have hundreds of nukes capable of being delivered anywhere on the planet (they’ve actually bragged about it) continue to scream for Iran’s obliteration.
Otherwise I suspect that Obama’s overtures to Iran are every bit as genuine as his moves to shut down torture. Honestly if you want to know where his head is at just look at his cabinet. Warmongers, Zionists, and bankers the lot of them.
In your well travelled days did you work in Iran or is your opinion of the country derived from Western mainstream media sources and all the bias that being an “Axis of Evil” member brings that information? (eg. non-existent nuclear weapons powered by Uranium enriched only to power generation levels)
Why does everyone assume there is no evidence of this woman spying and she is in jail merely on the whim of some dictator given the history of CIA involvement in that country? Have you read the court transcripts?
However, not listening to the truth doesnt make it go away.
Britain, a country which executes Brazilian electricians and radically curtails freedom of speech (withing 1m of parliament and around banks), the rights of Muslims (to go about their business without fear of being arrested for terrorism) and numerous other freedoms that should be universal.
The “Iran executes gays” story is a myth:
http://www.iranaffairs.com/iran_affairs/2007/09/iran-gays-execu.html
Guilty or Innocent: Perception or Reality
Based on Iranian sources, Iranian-American journalist Ms. Roxana Saberi has implicated herself by her testimony. Guilty or innocent, she is also a victim of the political conflicts between USA and Iran, the conflicts mostly created by the past President George Bush and instigated by Israeli government and her assets.
Our previous attempts to undermine the Iranian government by creating conflict in Iran have sharpened Iranian government scrutiny of all Iranian-Americans traveling to their homeland. It is a common knowledge that our past foreign policy has severely hurt Iranian-Americans both in USA and Iran, in addition to hurting common Iranian people.
Since 1979, among those who were profiled and scrutinized were Iranian-Americans. Many Iranian-Americans, including those who were born in the United States, lost their jobs, demoted, ostracized, discriminated and forced into isolation
Post September 11, USA sensing danger from those whose aim was to hurt our country created scrutiny and security apparatus against those perceived to be dangerous to us. Is it understandable that Iranian government senses the same security risks about Iranian-Americans considering USA and Israeli overt and covert attempts to destroy Iranian government?
We hope Iranian President Ahmadinejad will pardon Ms. Roxana Saberi now. We hope President Obama will stop the dirty trick agenda of the past-Presidents since 1979, and will establish now a formal political relation with Iran.
Paul,
If the CIA were looking to recruit an agent in Iran, female journalist with dual citizenship and nil classified access is not the sort of person they would hire. It makes no sense at all. What exactly do you thin she was spying on?