The Blackwater mercenaries who massacred 17 Iraqi civilians have been let off by a US judge because they gave evidence under duress – the threat of losing their jobs.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/31/us-court-dismisses-blackwater-charges
Yet evidence given by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during hundreds of torture sessions, including over a hundred sessions of waterboarding, is admissible in the US, torture apparently not being duress like the threat of losing your job.
The US is at the same time going through more angst about the underpants bomber. Get this into your heads; people want to kill you because as a nation you behave in a murderous and arrogant way. That does not justify a terrorist in killing innocent civilians; but killing innocent civilians did not seem to bother the Blackwater boys, or the US armed forces who kill innocent civilians every single day.
derek, dreoilin,
We’ve already had the body cavity bomber — I think it was in Saudi.
After all, suppositories aren’t lethal, and it is a long-established way of smuggling .
Happy New Y to all . frog
It never ceases to amaze me how British citizens constantly attack America over problems that we can do little about, while totally avoiding nasty issues at home that one might be able to do something about? There is a rather hypocritical double standard to this. It is almost as if one is subconsciously being directed down avenues that let our own sometimes-abusive establishment off the hook by providing America as a whipping boy. Issues like mine don’t seem to bother you at all ?” I am a nuisance for raising these uncomfortable issues that don’t relate to America, but may relate to the Royal Family and certainly relate to overriding rule of law and neutering your parliament, your democracy, and your freedoms. I realize that I am a real nuisance for pointing out the sheer hypocrisy and dishonest double standard being applied by institutions such as The Guardian and Amnesty International. But the double standard goes beyond human rights issues. Are you not bothered by the fact that your establishment through its incompetent management and bailout of the banking system has burdened future generations with levels of debt not seen since World War 11? Do you not understand what this will do to your standard of living, since other EU countries are not burdened to the same extent. I am not a socialist, I believe in free markets; but it bothers me that taxpayer funded bonuses were paid to bankers for bankrupting their banks. We British were once described as lions led by donkeys; it seems to me that sheep would be a more appropriate word than lion.
I find the terms “innocent victim”, “innocent bystander” and “innocent civilian” offensive and hypocritical.
They are set off against the words “terrorist” and “terrorism” to selectively delegitimise one side in a war. Israel has been at war with the Palestinians since the late nineteenth century but in 1947 Israel acquired the legitimacy of a state with an army while the Palestinians became stateless persons not entitled to make war.
The greatest hypocrisy is to propagate the idea that civilians should be off limits. In the second world war, Germany bombed London a civilian city as it had every right to do and in return the allies bombed many German cities including Dresden that were purely civilian as they had a perfect right to do. Before the war ended the USA used the atomic bomb on the civilian cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as they had every right to do, and the Japanese have no right to whine that the yanks atomic bombed us. It seems to me that in war civilians should be legitimate targets even if the only effect of splattering them over the landscape is to damage the morale of their soldier relatives. But there are many other reasons to target civilians. Civilians support the civilian economy which in turn supports the war economy, civilians pay taxes used to support the military, civilian women become mothers of soldiers, civilian children are future soldiers. Civilians man the munitions and armaments factories that make the weapons and ammunition.
Were I a Palestinian, a Muslim or an Arab, I would cheer at every Israeli, US citizen or UK citizen dead at Muslim hands.
In every war civilians get killed as legitimate collateral damage when they happen to be where the enemy thinks there are legitimate targets and this is regrettable but tough gorganzola.
Let’s apply the rules that we apply to Arabs and Muslim illegal warriors to The Second World war. The French Resistance were terrorists and the German legal occupiers of France had every right to treat them to firing parties as the evil, vile, despicable criminals that they were.
I think we miss the point about the main motives of terrorists. We are wrong to assume that their actions are aimed at achieving political goals, I think the Palestinians are aware that the land that they owned is lost to them, but they have not yet been reduced to the same level of abject demoralization as have the dispossessed indigenous peoples of North and South America and of Australia.
The Palestinians want revenge on the Jews, and a ratio of one dead Jew to 100 dead Palestinians in the conflict makes it worth it for them, the revenge on that one dead is so sweet. The same motive as spread across the Arab and Muslim world so that fighters are flocking to Iraq so they can kill Americans.
In one episode of Star Trek Enterprise, the Enterprise picked up some stranded aliens. These aliens had undertaken a process that converted parts of their bodies to high explosive and they could detonate themselves at will. They used this ability to take control of the ship.
Of course this Star Trek idea is fanciful but even better than the body cavity bomb would be the fully implanted one. I would recommend that potential bombers have surgeons plant high explosive bombs in their abdomens several months before their trip, giving enough time for the scars to heal. The bomb could be triggered by a radio signal. We should get as many trick bomb ideas out into the public domain as quickly as possible so that the authorities can place more restrictions on air travelers as soon as possible to prevent them. At least it will make air travel so inconvenient that its contribution to green house will go down.
“it’s me that is drinking champagne, not Carlyle, and I won’t cheer when innocent people on any “side” are killed.”
I know it is you drinking champagne. I am reacting to the idiot called Carlyle who wants to “celebrate” the deaths of those who happen to be on an airliner.
All I’m saying is I hope he chokes to death on his preferred method of celebrating the deaths of innocent people.
The solution to the fully implanted bomb is to have air passengers undergo NMR imaging at airports. NMR can pick up the presence of large concentrations of nitrogen that characterize explosives.
I think those full body scanners do not use X-rays, rather millimeter wave lengths. These can see through clothes so the scanee appears naked except for any concealed weapons.
angrysoba.
I admit, I don’t like humans and have a particular dislike for the nations of the USA, the UK and Australia (my country) that combined in the coalition of the willing to punish Iraq for the aeroplaning of The World Trade Centre and the Pentagon.
Yes if a Qantas plane that blows up has on it someone that I know, I will feel regret for that person but for no others. I believe that all Australians including me are guilty for electing the governments lead by John Winston Howard that joined in the war against Iraq. Australia has comitted a crime and Australia deserves punishment for it just as do the USA and the UK. The only people willing to inflict punishment on these nations appear to be the terrorists. I do not see any movement to bring Tony Blair, George W or John Winston Howard to court for their war crimes in Iraq.
angrysoba.
You may call me evil, but please not stupid.
Intense self righteous hatred is normal human behaviour and as a human I am entitled to exhibit it.
Carlyle, you are stupid and loathsome and the sooner you commit suicide the sooner this planet is rid of a little more trash.
FUCK YOU!
Carlyle Moulton,
You are a stupid cunt.
Carlyle Moulton said “Personally I will cheer when a less incompetent apparel bomber manages to down a US airliner and off a couple of hundred of passengers.”
Can you please tell us the next time you fill be flying to we can make sure to shoot down the plane!
“Yet evidence given by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during hundreds of torture sessions, including over a hundred sessions of waterboarding, is admissible in the US …”
Are you sure you have your facts straight on that, Craig?
Carlyle Moulton
I think we, the citizens of the UK, who elected Tony Blair again after the Iraqi war are the most guilty.
I too have an intense dislike of the UK having firsthand experience of the total corruption within the country. I commiserate with Roderick Russell. I know exactly how he feels. All I can say is that every dog has its da
Happy new Year Assholes!
Carlyle Moulton – you guys took your best shot at me and you failed – like you losers always do.
But I thought Saddam was our friend.
Achmed the Jihadist.
I very rarely fly, I really don’t like it and all the inconvenience introduced at airports to prevent terrorism give more reasons for not doing so.
If we were rational about terrorism we would ignore it. The actual chance of dying from terrorist action in an aircraft or elsewhere is very low. The September the 11 airlinerings were the most spectacularly successful terrorist acts ever, but it only killed a paltry 3000 people, about a tenth of a years US fire arms death I believe. It will be very difficult to repeat as no crew and passengers on any future airline flight are going to be intimidated by box cutters into letting hijackers into the cock pit. The fourth September 11 plane never reached its target because of rebellion by the passengers and crew who knew the fate first one.
There are so many other causes of death which take a much greater toll every year, the inability of many Americans to afford health care for example. It seems to me that the World War II London blitz did not demoralize the UK the way a few paltry terrorist attacks have scared the USA and the UK. Of course the aims of terrorists and politicians in the target countries converge. Politicians are quite happy to have the population running around like headless chooks in irrational fear as they can introduce laws that increase the control of the population by Government and wind back civil liberties. i don’t believe all the terrorist events are false flag operations by the US and UK governments but I would not be surprised if a few of them turned out to be such.
Show me a politician and I will show you a person who thinks people like him should have more power to control everyone else.
Larry,
“CIA interrogators used the controverisal waterboarding technique 183 times on Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, attacks and 83 times on another al-Qaeda suspect, according to The New York Times.
A 2005 Justice Department memorandum revealed that the simulated drowning technique was used on Mohammed 183 times in March 2003.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6130165.ece
angrysoba
He who first starts to refer to reproductive organs has lost.
Carlyle Moulton,
I think you’re right about citizen casualties. When a nation declares war particularly a democratically elected one we’re all in it. If we don’t like it and particularly if our country is the aggressor we should be doing whatever possible and by whatever means to bring an end to the government, which is in effect carrying out acts of murder.
Over the years, I’ve noticed that defenders of the official coincidence theory of 9/11 get very angry with those who dispute it and often resort to insults and bad language.
I think their anger must come from fear. Fear that they might be wrong, and that the administration might have made or let it happen: a viewpoint from which the world does indeed become a frightening place.
Examples from recent comments on this blog from a self-styled ‘NWO shill and footsoldier for the 9/11 Lies Movement’:
“You’re a fucking idiot.”
“You fucking Nazi Cunt.”
“…you are stupid and loathsome…”
“I hope you choke to death…”
“FUCK YOU!”
This used to be quite a nice place.
Is it New Year alcohol that’s driving up the temperature?
Usmec v Afpak
Beatha agus Slainte.
I assume you are referring to the readiness of a military commission in Guantanamo Bay to accept a confession made by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed under duress. But I understand that he is to be given a trial in a civilian court in New York, which has yet to take place. So his confession would certainly be challenged there by his defense attorney (if the prosecution were stupid enough to try to use it).
Carlyle Moulton: The episode you refer to was on ‘Voyager’, when a Cardassian… better stop there, that alone marks me enough as a major geek. But the original term for an in-body bomb, unless someone beat him to it, was a ‘Kaze’ in The Gap series by Stephen Donaldson. This human bomb was undetectable, as the components were all biological, and mixed in with the regular organic matter. The subject was a regular attendee at the necessary event (security guard, etc.) who had all the right documentation, but was turned into a kaze, drugged and/or had his family held hostage, and sent to blow up the right people.
The point is, I think, you simply can never stop this sort of thing. And treating everyone like a potential kaze is self-defeating. What sort of society would you have, if precautions had to be taken against _anyone at all_ being a potential bomb – even the security staff themselves?
*
I don’t agree with you that any lives lost in this highly profitable game called “war on terror” should be celebrated. We are talking about ordinary lives, after all. You might well be forgiven for pondering that the 8 CIA staffers in Afghanistan blown up were only receiving in kind from the people _they_ had blown up in directing their manned drones. You could also be forgiven for pondering further, that the suicide-bomber that blew up the CIA 8 was far braver than they. He gave his own life at a minimum, and if his plan failed, he would be tortured brutally by the CIA or their puppets. The CIA, in the meantime, cowered in bunkers, not even risking a manned flight to drop bombs from a great distance, and very often on wedding parties. There were likely to be few wedding parties underway at a CIA HQ in Afghanistan.
But bombing airliners and civilians is totally out of order, whether we do it, or the ‘terrorists’. The terrorist who blew up the Iranian airliner (for which Lockerbie was probably revenge) was awarded a medal by the US Navy, if arsey-soab didn’t already answer the question.
Some lazy, useless bastard wrote:
—start quote
[quoting CM:]
“Yet evidence given by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during hundreds of torture sessions, including over a hundred sessions of waterboarding, is admissible in the US …”
Are you sure you have your facts straight on that, Craig?
—end quote
If the said useless, lazy bastard, who’s name is not worth repeating, had bothered to type “khalid sheikh mohammed waterboarded” into a search engine they would have got (within 0.12 seconds) links such as the following:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6130165.ece
This reveals that KSM was waterboarded 183 times, which puts me to shame, because the other day I said on this board the number was 186. I remembered incorrectly, and stand corrected.
This wild rumour comes from “A 2005 Justice Department memorandum”, and referenced in the New York Times.
—-
Why are people like the guy who questioned Craig (and me yesterday, this “Larry” joke), so useless? Do they think everyone is as lazy and stupid as they are, and questioning an easily proven fact just throws around more doubt?
Probably this is the case, and “Larry” is a shill worth no more that $0.25/post. They do get varying amounts, and a low-quality poster like Larry who are little better than spam-bots, probably rate no more.
I do wonder if there are just key phrases to punch in for a stock response, so an operator needs spend no more than a couple of moments to get a “Larry”-esque reply, containing a dispute-bot answer to almost anything currently in the news.
This is an extraordinarily dangerous precedent. It could – and probably will be – invoked in any and every case where authority wants to protect its misdeeds.
Taken to its logical conclusion, it stops just about every legal action against those employed by state agents by little people.
But then, I haven’t read the decision so…let’s pray that UK courts are not quite so predisposed to anti-democratic defences and the eradication of justice.
But why do you think that evidence obtained by torture is admissible in U.S. federal courts?
Sam, what part of the decision is a dangerous precedent? What is it “anti-democratic” to toss confessions that were improperly introduced as evidence or improperly used to gather more evidence? Do you understand the concept of procedural safeguards?
I’ve linked the opinion below (opens into a PDF)
bit.ly/7q0G2r