Commenters may wish to dig around on this one. Just how precise a correlation is there between media supporters of the illegal invasion of Iraq, and media supporters of the illegal attack on the Gaza convoy?
Take both old and new media into account. I think you will find the correlation is approaching 100% – and is a much higher correlation in the media than among politicians.
Now how do you explain this?
Discuss
“In the West people are just not prepared to accept peoples faces being hidden in public transactions,”
has never stopped them from using the phone or computer nor has it prevented them from making decisions based on reports broadcast from radios.
“for security as much as”
there is no security issue at al, in the mid east and elsewhere the problem is easily resolved by having another female doing the security check. quick easy and a simple solution.
” as equality reasons,”
this is nonsensical we have inequality and it has nothing at all to do with covering one face,or being able to walk the streets practically naked.
“and also see this as being about regarding women as second class citizens.”
again this is just nonsensical womena re viewed as second class citizens across the planet across variety of communities and faiths it has little to do with covering the face.
“Many people also see Islam as requiring the West to make compromises while offering none itself”
but how valid are these perceptions, i mean what compromising have you had to do?
” – demanding respect for Islamic tradition but not respecting European customs and norms.”
which european custom or norms are not being respected?
“For us all to move forward towards more harmony, the Islamic world has to be prepared to make some accomodations to reflect modern society,”
what accomodations are you wanting. what is a modern society, one that attacks peace flotillas? one that lies and is responsible for 1 million deaths ? maybe its the 200 000 teenage pregnancies or the uncontrollable binge drinking?
” particularly in relation to cultural norms which are not in the Koran but part of later patriarchal custom.”
there is no cultural norm for any society unless it is living in a bubble, cultures evolve are influenced from the outside as well as from withing.
if you really want to maintain the cultural norms then demand a stop to globalistation, technology such as the internet , mobiles and being able to travel abroad. deny any contact with any other nation or peoples.
our cultural norms are very different from thos of 40 years, 30 years even 5 years ago .
what you are demanding is impossible regardless of face covering or not.
oh and btw research indicates that people make better observations as to whether one is lying or not through ones ears not eyes or body posture.
@John D. Monkey
Interesting observation.
“In the West people are just not prepared to accept peoples faces being hidden in public transactions, for security as much as as equality reasons,……..”
Middle Eastern countries must have the same security problems with the niqab and the burqua, so how do they cope with it. Can western culture learn something about security that we’re not asking the Middle East about?
“Some time ago I read an article outlining how well the Israeli press office ran, they delivered journalists stories ready packaged, and gave them refreshments too. Journalists being up against deadlines and perhaps not overly eager to go out to where the shooting is file these stories.”
its not just the israeli pr offices, govt and other vested interests utilise the same methods.
when politicians lie it is upto the journos to define that lie . they tend not to. they are paid to follow their employers politics.
for the bbc its employer is the government/state, for the times or sky its murdoch.
why would you or anyone actually believe a report from a complete stranger who has a vested interest due to the organisation he/she works for?
Jeez, Sir…everyone (idea instigators, pundits, opinion makers, etc.) involved seems, was/is of the Druid/zionist faith. Their non confessional flunkies were/are motivated by greed, racism and rapture mania.
What is it that breaks the law so readily and regularly and ignores all requests to desist?
The answer is: A lifelong and unrehabilitated criminal.
When you understand that Israel is not a state in any normal sense, you can begin to see it for what it is.
Israel is quite simply a criminal enterprise, run by gangsters.
Now you know what to expect, you won’t be disappointed.
“Middle Eastern countries must have the same security problems with the niqab and the burqua, so how do they cope with it. Can western culture learn something about security that we’re not asking the Middle East about?”
as stated earlier .. they have women employees or security to check upon other women with face coverings etc.
its not that much of an issue unless one is trying to sell a political line which is more about power and western supremacist values
Wendy wrote:
‘The BBC website is doing a fine job of pretending to report this issue while gradually burying it.’
Did you see their story claiming the Israeli commandos were armed with paintball guns?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10208027.stm
I guess the paint had a high lead content.
Would seem that Goldstone is unhappy that this documentary buried by the French government was not on his radar when they did the investigation into the attacks of 2009 by israel.
http://www.gaza-strophe.com/
regards
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/10222035.stm
“Ms Fink also said that she believed that some supporters of the English Defence League were also at the protest.
Organisers of the pro-Israel protest said they had made it clear that the EDL, who have been accused of Islamophobia, were not welcome but that a separate space had been reserved for them.”(!!!)
The English Defence League, the extreme right-wing anti-Islamic group, has launched a “Jewish division”, encouraging members of the community to “lead the counter-Jihad fight in England”.
It has signed up hundreds of followers on Facebook since the launch last week. Supporters include an ex-Community Security Trust volunteer who claims “a lot of Jewish guys want to get stuck in”
An Associated Press writer, Tia Goldenberg, was aboard the Israeli warship INS Kidon at the time.
I believe that ‘kidon’ means ‘dagger’ etc, and the Israeli State Security assassination group is known as the Kidon Unit.
If that is the case, it seems that someone, somewhere has a malicious sense of humour.
@Wendy
“they have women employees or security to check upon other women with face coverings etc.”
Gee, that simple. It would make a good business case for starting a woman only ‘security’ company.
I really don’t see what’s wrong with a woman covering her face if she wants to, I’m quite sure a lot of people would wish I would cover mine when I’m walking along the road! 🙂
The recent surge in Shia killings in Iraq are carried out by Baath agents who are controlled (and infiltrated) by about 30 percent US special agents (civilian or military). They are organised into cells and have accounted for the deaths of 375 Shia Muslims in the last two months.
Violence is increasing as the deadline looms for American partial withdrawal from Iraq.
The US agents in Iraq are tasked with targeting and connecting certain ‘terrorists’ with al-Qaeda. A plan exists to build the the personality of the new leader of al Qaeda in Iraq (Abu Suleiman) as harsh and extreme and works to stir sectarian war just like his predecessor Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Suleiman is of Arab origin, Egyptian born and has lived in Syria (to implicate Syria as well).
To propel the al-Qaeda legend a ‘ghost writer’ is used to prepare speeches for the media. This State Ghost is one of the Saudi intelligence agents who cooperate intimately with the U.S. and Israeli intelligence. This fiction contains (in a similar fashion to the dodgy dossier) sermons and governance, speeches and conversations from obsolete books, thesis and State speeches. This somewhat delusional thinking aspires to give credibility to the announcements.
Examining the recent death of Abu al-Yazid Masri, claimed to be the third man in al Qaeda, I would like you to watch this video, which contains an interview with Ahmed Zaidan from Al-Jazeera with the Egyptian in the apparent “jungles of Afghanistan.” Listened to him, contemplate and notice the environment around him. Tell me what you think of anything that might draw attention.
Broadcast on Al-Jazeera 21st June 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJHDhI5zaD8
Why not try putting it in terms of the opponents of the war against Iraq, and the opponents of the Israeli arrest of the Mavi Marmara.
Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel. Now that he is dead and his regime no more, that mantle has passed to Iran, Syria and Hamas.
@Wendy,
The ex-CST member is Mark Steel who according to his facebook page is a fan of Ann Summers parties. You should expect lots of frustration from a wage slave who convinces himself that he could make money from being tarty.
David Aaronovitch was gung ho for the Iraq war, but seems much more muted in support of of the recent Israeli terrorism, from the little I’ve seen from him anyway.
Aaronovitch claims to be a lover much more of Turkey than Israel.
Mad Mel was her usual Israeli propagandist self. Are she and Mark Regev related?
Someone else wrote that the attack on the Turks was to sow confusion in Turkish politics and a rift between Turkish politicians and their military. The Turkish military are very pro-Israel whilst the Islamic party currently running Turkey are much much less so. The Turks are also currently trying to set up a regional power between themselves, Iran and Syria. Israel is a bit pissed off, so it just murdered some people as it always does.
“If Israel is a declared belligerent, why does it continually make protests about Hamas rockets?”
It’s called ‘propaganda war’.
Nobody will teach me about ‘demonisation’. The Jews have been demonised more than any nation in history, and still are, under the laughable figleaf of ‘anti-Zionism’.
Try a serious argument.
I am not ‘trivialising’ legality. That’s nonsense. On the contrary: the one trivialising it is Murray, by shooting from the hip and inventing absurd ‘illegalities’ where none exist. It’s simply one strand in the non-stop demonisation of Israel, which is the only UN member continuously accused of being an illegal state per se, by people who simply don’t like Jews very much and obssess about them non-stop. How many people shout about the illegal behaviour of Sudan in Darfur, China in Tibet, etc etc etc? No, it’s always Jews this and Jews that. Since destroying Israel by force is proving more difficult than its fantasist enemies have imagined, they are resorting to lies about its supposed ‘illegal’ behaviour. This includes shameless distortions of what SC resolutions say (not that the UN has a shred of moral or legal authority left, if it ever had one), and now shameless distortions of what maritime law and the laws of war say. Claiming, e.g., that war needs to be declared in order to exist is hysterical nonsense.
PS. Strike the first bit. Israel protests about the rockets because they DELIBERATELY TARGET CIVILIANS. That’s their entire raison d’etre. That’s supposed to be illegal, eh, Murray?
“Did you see their story claiming the Israeli commandos were armed with paintball guns?”
Err, they were. They only starting shooting after being attacked with knives and steel rods (despite the BBC’s shameless lie that they came down the ropes firing machine-guns).
“which european custom or norms are not being respected?”
Try religious freedom. In some parts of Britain, Christian preachers are physically threatened and attacked, and the ‘auxiliaries’ threaten THEM with arrest for breaching the peace.
Calling it ‘peace flotilla’ is like calling Saddam a ‘humanitarian’. There were quite a few convicted terrorists on board (incl. one well-known ‘archbishop’), and they had an arsenal of weapons – and had declared quite openly before sailing that they are looking forward to a confrontation.
“How precise a correlation is there between media supporters of the illegal invasion of Iraq, and media supporters of the illegal attack on the Gaza convoy? How do you explain this? Discuss.
This looks like a history exam question!
“Discuss” is a good word because, for example, the Tories appear to have been in favour of the Iraq war, but Cameron condemned the operation against the flotilla.
I would say myself that both the Iraq war and the operation against the flotilla were badly planned, suggesting a gung-ho, right-wing government, whether in Washington a few years ago or in Israel now. That may be the common factor.
Israel has been the biggest ethnic cleanser over the past 60 years.
That’s criminal behaviour and Israel is rightly condemned by all decent people.
That Israel continues its crimes up to the present day shows its total contempt for any decent moral behaviour.
Anyway, Israel is so corrupt politically, morally, intellectually, demographically and every other way that it will eventually collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions.
Ben Gurion pointed out a long time ago that if Israel did not retreat to its pre 1967 borders, the demographic time bomb would destroy the Zionist project from within.
I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look upon my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
@John,
“I am not ‘trivialising’ legality. That’s nonsense. On the contrary: the one trivialising it is Murray, by shooting from the hip and inventing absurd ‘illegalities’ where none exist.”
OK John, I’m prepared to be convinced by your arguments, what are your qualifications? Craig’s seem pretty extensive, I assume yours are more so.
@John,
“How many people shout about the illegal behaviour of Sudan in Darfur, China in Tibet, etc etc etc?”
We hear a reasonable amount about Darfur and Tibet in Britain, certainly when there is a major event such as the ones Israel perpetrates on a fairly regular basis. The problem is, with all the noise coming from the Middle East in general its difficult for the smaller voices to be heard.
Rightly or wrongly, the Israeli/Palestinian situation has, for the last few generations at least, fuelled the sense of hatred and bitterness between Arab nations and Israel. It’s nothing to do with being Jewish or Muslim otherwise why weren’t Jews targeted in 9/11 or 7/7, they weren’t but as usual guys like you perpetually dredge up religion and a mythical global hatred of Jews as the reason for condemning Israel over its appalling behaviour, along with the US’s, and to a lesser extent, Great Britain’s, complicity in the whole situation.
Try to get a grip on reality and begin to understand that you are suffering a persecution complex with your constant reference to people hating Jews, no one hates the Jews, they just hate violence and at the moment Israel, which happens to be populated by Jews, is the globes worst offender. If the tables were turned and it was the Palestinians with all the weaponry, money and US backing you could then, possibly, with some good reason, bleat about the eternal fate of the Jewish nation but until then you are simply boring everyone.
“Strike the first bit. Israel protests about the rockets because they DELIBERATELY TARGET CIVILIANS.”
Can you explain the words in BLOCK CAPITALS? Hamas uses crude misilies with no guiding system. How then can they ‘deliberately target’ anyone?
Michael Petek said: “Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel.”
What a ridiculous statement. Everyone knew Saddam was no threat to anyone but his own people. It’s also disgusting that you misrepresent the motives of good people who merely wanted to prevent the inevitable humanitarian disaster that was/is the Iraq war.
“Hamas uses crude misilies with no guiding system. How then can they ‘deliberately target’ anyone?”
Oh sure, and those V-1s and V-2s never harmed a soul in Britain.
Read my statement again and you’ll find it’s not so ridiculous.
At every demonstration against the war there were banners which said ‘Stop the War’, ‘Not in My Name’ and ‘Hands off Iraq’ alongside others which said ‘Freedom for Palestine’.
What the hell has the case of Iraq got to do with the case of Palestine?
Michael Petek –
“Many of the opponents of the war saw Saddam Hussein as the best available candidate to destroy the State of Israel
[cries of ‘ridiculous’]
Read my statement again and you’ll find it’s not so ridiculous. At every demonstration against the war there were banners which said ‘Stop the War’, ‘Not in My Name’ and ‘Hands off Iraq’ alongside others which said ‘Freedom for Palestine’.
”
Do you really think that the second statement is proof of the first ? Honestly ?
Michael Petek:
Ahh so you think Freedom for Palestine = I want Saddam to destroy the state of Israel? Ridiculous. Come back when you can find someone who actually made the case that Saddam should not be overthrown so that he could destroy Israel.
You obviously haven’t seen or been to many protest. One of the most common criticisms of ‘left wing’ protests is that they attract many people with unrelated causes to protest at the same time.
Showing your ignorance Larry. The V1 had autopilot, gyro compass, vane anemometer, magnetic compass and radio bearing calculations.
My mother, an ARP warden, escapes death from a ‘doodlebug’ near Crystal Palace by wrapping herself in a duvet.
Try imagining being targeted by rockets and cruise type missiles Larry – then you will firstly understand the resilience of the British and then the fear and terror felt by Baghdad children when America reigned cluster bombs and cruise missiles at her while the kids were eating breakfast on the day in March when the flames came out the skies and cooked small babies in their cots and cribs on a lie! Arse ‘ole.