168 thoughts on “Murray vs Aaronovitch on Assange”

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  Cryptonym August 21, 2012 at 02:39

  It was a poor performance, it is as well to confront that; you spoke powerfully and rivetingly outside the Embassy and that was a triumph, but you never really got off the launch pad in this exchange; gave Esler a cue to disrupt you when you began to ennumerate points about to be made, using your fingers, before managing to get only a few words out, you shouldn’t have been so diplomatic :). As a longtime ‘Washington correspondent’ Esler is deeply embedded in the whole heinous UK-US-Israeli can-of-worms. That Newsnight has sunk to sewer levels I took for granted but by making a rare effort to watch it tonight, I confirmed that the BBC cannot any longer carry off even a superficial appearance of impartiality or honest enquiry.

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  Courtenay Barnett August 21, 2012 at 02:41

  Sorry – not “Through you off your train of thought” – but “throw” you off which I surely don’t want to do.
  CB

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  Lindi August 21, 2012 at 02:41

  Craig –

  fyi I have just sent you an email re http://www.tcij.org/whistleblowers

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  Chris Jones August 21, 2012 at 02:54

  @Jonangus Mackay – take my wife…

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  Jonangus Mackay August 21, 2012 at 03:42

  @Chris Jones
  .
  Flattered but aghast. And not just because Once a Calvinist, always a Calvinist.
  .
  Don’t know Carl Rove, by any chance?
  .
  Wife isn’t perhaps . . . Swedish?

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  Chris Jones August 21, 2012 at 03:54

  @Jonangus Mackay – ny mother in law then??

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  VivaEcuador August 21, 2012 at 04:38

  An old but relevant link:

  http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/national-affairs/wikileaks-stratfor-emails-a-secret-indictment-against-assange-20120228#ixzz1yIsD1nFW

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  Jonangus Mackay August 21, 2012 at 06:30

  @Chris Jones
  .
  V. good. But enough already of this outrageous politically incorrect banter: I’m training for the priesthood. No wives, no mothers-in-law, no packed lunch boxes.

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  Komodo August 21, 2012 at 08:56

  Might be worthwhile reminding Aaronovitch of his meteoric rise to Times columnistdom – this is by him:

  http://www.unz.org/Pub/MarxismToday-1998nov-00033

  Remarkably prescient piece IMO, and seems to have done him no lasting harm vis-a-vis Murdoch.

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  bert August 21, 2012 at 10:48

  @Jon – Assume for the sake of argument that Jewish wealth did control the US. Would you then take the same position? Namely, that when the neocon Aaronowitch, given a platform by British government TV to push for Assange to extradited on spook-faked sex charges, supports his presentation by painting Sweden as a land of honesty and fairness and decency, an opponent should avoid saying Sweden is owned by one family, despite that being true, because Aaronowitch could say in response that that’s just like going on about the power of Jewish wealth?

  (Please correct me if I have misrepresented your position, because I’m not trying to do so!)

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  Jon August 21, 2012 at 11:19

  Hi Bert, thanks.

  I think I would take the same position. The problem with such theories is they are over-simplistic and difficult to prove, and tend towards the evil-lair theory I mentioned earlier. In the case of Jewish wealth: although I am a frequent critic of Israel, I do think positions that sound racist (it’s all the fault of race/nationality X) do need to be handled carefully, especially with Jewish history being as it is*.

  Regarding what one should say, or not say, in a media interview. I’ve never been interviewed, but I expect I would be terrible at it! as there seem to be many traps for the unwary. Nevertheless I think I have a feeling for what “plays well” (without getting too much into public relations territory!) when watching others. I’d recommend not engaging in theories that are (a) too detailed, as there is often insufficient time to go through the necessary points (b) difficult to prove, or (c) opens oneself out to fresh charges (such as racism).

  * There are two recent defining atrocities have shaped our view of race: the Holocaust and slavery. In each case, there is a body of justified victimhood carried by Jewish and Black people respectively, which has undoubtedly in itself caused tensions. Each has been abused both ways – both as a catalyst for further racism, and also as a get-out-jail-free card for the minority group. The consciousness of these events is passed as a “meme” through generations, and it will take a great deal of work – and time I think – for those wounds to heal.

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  VivaEcuador August 21, 2012 at 14:14

  Jon:

  I cannot accept Holocaust with a capital “H”. For me it is the Jewish holocaust. There have been others like the Armenian holocaust.

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  Jon August 21, 2012 at 14:36

  @VivaEcuador – a fair point, that there have been others. Perhaps it is unfair that when we say the Holocaust, we generally mean the one from WWII, which was predominantly (though not exclusively) Jewish. We should not forget that people were exterminated on the basis of other ethnicities, sexualities and disabilities.

  I am not intending specifically to prioritise one atrocity over another btw – they are/were all terrible.

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  VivaEcuador August 21, 2012 at 14:49

  Jon:

  Agreed and that is the point I wanted to make. I cannot accept the primacy of Jewish suffering over the suffering of other holocaust victims. Sadly I have been accused of being an anti-semite (another meaningless term) and “H”olocaust denier for saying this. It seems to me that the Holocaust is to Catholicism what the holocaust is to catholicism. Their is a certain quasi-religious treatment of the Jewish holocaust that prevents many of our politicians from condemning repeated Israeli human rights violations and aggression. That is why I say out with the “H” and in with the “h”!!

  Back to Assange….

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  VivaEcuador August 21, 2012 at 14:51

  Jon:

  PS. My posts appeared on Charles Crawford’s blog.

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  Steve de Dalus August 21, 2012 at 21:42

  == There are two recent defining atrocities have shaped our view of race: the Holocaust and slavery. In each case, there is a body of justified victimhood carried by Jewish and Black people respectively == Yeah, because the African slave trade was controlled by Jews, but not many people believe too much in the legendary Jewish ‘holocaust’with its human soap et al.

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  Fedup August 21, 2012 at 23:14

  Fedup seems kind of well meaning sometimes but immature and protaginistic at others. I think he is a borderline troll

  Come again?

  Patronising yet full of crap. The last time you started pissing around with me, you wound up taking cover behind the Mod. now give over with your statistical analysis.

  To find the agents of greater circle jerk filling the thread with “identity” politics, that is played up to cover up the empire running rampant with no regards for any and all international agreements or conventions, is the obscenity that evidently we are behoved to tolerate.

  The obscenity of a legitimate nations sovereign territory is under the threat of invasion by our police force under the threatened orders of our foreign secretary in the way of arresting a guy whom disobeyed the orders of wearing a condom when he was laying the roadies of the fame in some other piss pot foreign land.

  Then you fucking have the temerity of calling me a troll?

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  Jon August 22, 2012 at 01:46

  @Steve de Dalus – I am not sure I understand your response at all. Do you believe the Holocaust during WWII did not take place – I notice you put it in quotes? I am quite sure the historical record is certain on its having happened, and I don’t think anything is gained by imagining it did not. Also, what is “human soap”?

  @Fedup – calm down. Why are you so jumpy? If someone has a go, just ignore it.

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