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7,866 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued

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  • Pink

    @GIP Just my stab at it no science involved, BM’s MB, Janin’s MB, Gentle Giant ,plus 2 mobylettes introduced much later that I never heard about in orginal tale.

    Green 4×4 and MB seen by builder heading to CDI earlier than SAH .

    SAH BMW seen by builder heading to CDI.

    4x4and MB seen heading towards and from CDI by BM .

    Cars were White Peugeot seen by Sylvie leaving area (4ish)

    Police were hunting dark Pajero .

    Inroduced much later PB and friends and their vehicle .
    I have no idea where the citreon van came from .

    Bikes SM ,BM

    To my mind Janins MB looked most suspicious Janin would not have mentioned it if not jogged by wife, they played down that MB saying it was riding with difficulty on terrain and was patient waiting for cows to cross, I could never see why it would be there hanging about .
    No research was involved in this just how I remember it .

    …….

    Lt. Col Vinnemann said: “The main witness, a cyclist who discovered the grisly scene, said he was overtaken by another cyclist on the climb that leads to the parking lot where the shooting took place.

    “Arriving there, he found the cyclist on the ground with gunshot wounds near a car. In the vehicle, a man and two women, has also been shot. On the other side of the car, a child of 6-8 years old was alive. He placed her in the recovery position until help arrived. She had been very badly beaten.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9524537/France-shooting-Father-named-as-Saad-Al-Hilli.html

    ….
    “A British cyclist, a former RAF serviceman who had been overtaken by the French rider, discovered the grisly scene in a quiet car park, Mr Maillaud said.

    He is believed to have put the injured seven-year-old in the recovery position and immediately called the emergency services.”

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/alps-britons-get-on-with-holiday-as-slaughter-girls-to-be-reunited-with-relatives-28790014.html
    ….

    Published
    07/09/2012 | 07:08
    A British cyclist, who is a former RAF serviceman, has told police he saw a green four-wheel drive car and a motorbike speeding towards the scene before he arrived, police said today.
    ____________________________________________________________
    It is the first suggestion of another vehicle being involved other than the 4×4
    _____________________________________________________________

    http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/france-shooting-witness-saw-4×4-and-motorbike-at-scene-26895568.html

    • michael norton

      If the witnesses statements are to align,
      then there must have been a second motorcyclist.

      We are told that (at least one person from) ONF ONE spoke with a motorcyclist,
      who was wearing a special side opening helmet.

      William Brett Martin claims on his way up to discover the scene of slaughter, he was passed by a very slowly descending motorcyclist.
      Two plus years later the motorcyclist was found.
      That motorcyclist has become known as LMC,
      we have not been told his name nor have we been shown his likeness.
      LMC has admitted being there but has he admitted to having been spoken to by ONF ONE?

      LMC has said he has never owned or worn a special side-opening helmet.
      LMC has said he did not pass or see W.B.M.

      So for all these statements to be TRUE there must have been a second motorcyclist.

      However, we need to know
      was LMC the motorcyclist spoken to by ONF ONE?

  • James

    …..and a “large vehicle” becomes a “green 4×4” when the reporter puts pen to paper (or finger to key).
    Re Pink’s post above.

    This case will become “an investigation of teaching and learning” in the future, to paraphrased the belief of GIP. And I tend to agree. And example perhaps of “How to and not to……” conduct and present the initial phase(s) of an investigation. And manage/mismanage key witnesses.

    By 8am the next morning, Eric had given a statement to the awaiting newspaper reports that 1) detailed the investigation teams appreciation of “who the victims were and were not, and 2) concluded from that initial appreciation, the direction of his investigation. He also had “all but” named his Prime Suspect.

    Given that the Specialist Forensic Investigation Team from Paris had arrived at midnight and that the bodies of the victims were still where they had been murdered, this was truly an impressive feat by Eric.

    On this basis alone, how reliable can ONF1’s statement ever be, if by this time he had not been heard ?

    The motorcyclist descending the route had only been seen by the person that had discover the crime scene.
    That witness had also noted the “unknown large vehicle” that had preceded this motorcyclist.
    Other than those “factoids”, there was little else known of anything (other than, possibly, the make and model of the “key victims” car).

    The “secret investigation” was hardly “that secret”, by 8am the next day.
    The key victim, his vehicle type, the probably vehicles used by the potential assassination team and the key suspect were well and truly “in the public domain”.

    Then enter, stage left, the local forestry worker and “number two key witness” ONF1.

    By this time, given the “confusion and chaos”, coupled with the “investigation focus” already evident, the investigation is in a complete mess.

    I note that, there was a “case review” conducted (and mentioned in an interview/article) somewhere. This review was undertaken by the French police. It is “of course” once again “secret”. However, Eric & Co were not removed and replaced by “Chief Inspector A.N. Other”, so one has to assume, the farce will continue.

    The show, must go on (in the words of Eddie Mercury !).

    • Good In Parts

      James

      Yes.

      Adopting your approach of ‘evidence introduction analysis’ and applying it to ONF1, the description he gives of the motorcycle he apparently saw at place Martinet could have been ‘enhanced’ by the description given by Janin of the MC he claims to have seen on the Col (but which he later claimed had turned back and never actually reached Le Martinet).

      I think the ‘introduction timeline’ allows ONF1 to have two extra sources of influence before he gave a formal statement, Farmer Janin plus the ONF2 pair.

      But that leads me back to back to a ‘motorcycle mash-up’, rather than ONF1 simply adopting wholesale the description given by ONF2.

      Perhaps this piecemeal approach indicates that there was not an explicit collaboration between ONF1 and ONF2, but rather that ONF1 simply leached the basic MC description from ONF2, then enhanced it with media reports of Farmer Janin’s sighting.

      The key question is intent. Was this all just confabulation from a suggestible witness caused by interrogators pushing for detail he simply could not recall, or was there an intent to mislead ?

  • Pink

    I believe there was at least one large green 4×4 around as I saw it in a photograph taken at the bottom of CDI and noted in this blog, photo was vanished probably to protect witness no problem with that .
    I also saw a policman at the bottom of CDI holding on to a mountain bike while still trying to control access he never let it go, I would guess that was BM’s bike waiting to be collected but not proven just my guess,I think BM was taken to make a statement so probably the ONF driver of the large green 4×4 was too and thats why his vehicle and the bike were at the bottom .

  • Pink

    The phone call was not what alerted the services it came after they were already alerted if the orginal story is to be believed they heard it on the radionet so my guess would be that the large 4×4 called in trouble or thats what it looked like and then we got all PD’d up and it got confusing . It was noted that Didierjean was the name of a photgrapher and some of the car numbers matched some of the details being given out so did wonder if someone was being creative.

    • Good In Parts

      Pink

      Yeah, our own little Verbal Kint.

      La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu’il n’existe pas

      As the french say !

    • Good In Parts

      Pink

      In my post on the last page dated May 5, 2016 at 22:09 I wrote:- “There is something ‘not right’ about the emergency call(s) and the reported timings.”

      So radionet could be part of this. When I looked into radionet, or tried to, I was unable to establish whether any radio systems used by ONF were interoperable with the emergency services TETRAPOL system. There seemed to be very little on-line info and the search terms were very ‘polluted’. Not to mention my dreadful french.

      I could not even even establish whether ‘radionet’ was a generic descriptive word used by sapeurs-pompiers, gendarmes etc. or an implementation project name.

      My opinion is that any radio with a cryptosystem interoperable with the police would be restricted, to say, forest guards.

      • Peter

        @ GIP

        The “radionet” that they are referring to is the civil-security network INPT (Infrastructure Nationale Partageable des Transmissions). The ONF are part of this because one of their primary tasks is to prevent/spot forest fires, for which they must closely liaise with the fire service, spotter planes and whatnot.

        The fact that the radio infrastructure is encrypted means that the circle of recipients for any transmission can be restricted, right down to a single recipient. Thus, it is not as if any ONF mope with a compatible radio would be privy to all the information transmitted over the entire network. However, owing to their fire-fighting role, ONF personnel will receive most of what the local sapeurs-pompiers are receiving. They even share a common emergency sub-network called CODIS.

        • Good In Parts

          Peter

          Thank you. I shall have a look at INPT and CODIS.

          You are absolutely correct that, properly administered, the circle of recipients for any transmission can be restricted. The devil is in the detail and it is not exactly a graduate fast track role.

          Coincidentally, the media got there quickly didn’t they ?

  • Pink

    There was never any obvious reason that I could see too bring PD into it later, if he arrived at four how did it make any difference ,they hid his name why was that they hadn’t even mentioned him previously if they had continued not mentioning him we would have been none the wiser, the only thing he brought to the story was confusion ,I can speculate they had to because of the lie’s told about BM making the call, perhaps BM wouldn’t play ball or the time PD was there was a lie ,whatever the reason it looked like they were trying to shift the story ,I gave up trying to figure it out .
    Also by my reckoning if BM and SM left home at the same time then at some point SM had to overtake BM even if it wasn’t on the same road and BM had more time than it took him to cycle from home to CDI has anyone worked those timing’s out yet .

  • michael norton

    “Terrorism has struck our soil in an unprecedented way…
    and the threat of terrorism remains high,
    “French citizens deserve to know the truth”

    Valls told a press conference at the Elysée presidential palace in Paris

    http://www.france24.com/en/20150121-france-pm-manuel-valls-unveils-new-anti-terror-measures/

    The Truth,
    where is The Truth from The Slaughter of the Horses Incident,
    more than three and a half years down the road?

    Will Eric Maillaud give a presentation on the fourth annivesrary?

  • Good In Parts

    Pink

    On the subject of photos of vehicles on the CDI, there were also media photos that appeared to have been taken during the reconstruction approx a week after the murders. One of these was of a boxy 4×4 in gunmetal grey, possibly a Mitsubishi. Forum comments suggested this was PB (the witness formerly known as PD).

    I think your speculation that they had to ‘introduce’ PD/PB because of the lie’s told about BM making the call, is most likely correct. I am pretty sure that BM would not play ball.

    My understanding is that WBM had been out on his velo for as long as SM but that he had essentially been fannying around warming up for most of the time and taking photographs for the rest.

    If a convenient sequence of timestamped photographs sounds suspicious to you, I would point out that it also sounds like the kind of displacement activity a sloth like me would indulge in to avoid actually starting any kind of aerobic exercise.

    But start the climb he did, and his overall time seemed quite respectable. I think that in one interview he clarified that SM had not overtaken him in the strict sense of the word, but rather he had seen SM ahead of him ‘crossing the bar’ of a “T” junction as he was approaching it.

    PS I liked your comment “then we got all PD’d up and it got confusing”

    • Peter

      I don’t know anything about WBM “fannying around and taking photographs”. I am pretty sure that I have never heard or read anything to that effect before.

      Where the heck is M.? She knows more about this case than anybody else outside the investigation team.

      • Good In Parts

        Peter

        “fannying around warming up for most of the time and taking photographs for the rest.”

        I am very sure that I have heard or read something to that effect before !

        ‘fannying around warming up’ This came from an interview. Or rather that is my snarky description of what seemed to me to be a suspiciously long time spent doing set of stretches etc. Thinking about it, he could have been doing interval training – intense bursts then flop out.

        ‘taking photographs’ Off the top of my head I cannot recall the source for this. But see Shelock’s post below . If I get time tomorrow I shall scan through MZT.

      • michael norton

        Perhaps William Brett Martin was the Mystery Photographer of the family al-Hilli adjacent to the flat iron building?

  • Pink

    @GIP I was going to ask where did the info saying he was taking photos turn up I cannot recall that probably because of my over enthusiastic bike search then I remembered I have given up so don’t tell me .
    I missed the gunmetal grey Mitsubishi as well I am quite confused about the cars I keep seeing a Citroen being mentioned and I half thought that was PD…
    Georges post is another shocking crime I hope they check for a connection .

    “If a convenient sequence of timestamped photographs sounds suspicious to you, I would point out that it also sounds like the kind of displacement activity a sloth like me would indulge in to avoid actually starting any kind of aerobic exercise.”

  • Shelock

    @ GIP

    “My understanding is that WBM had been out on his velo for as long as SM but that he had essentially been fannying around warming up for most of the time and taking photographs for the rest.”

    Might be I’m lost in translation, but just in case, I’m right- I remember quite clear that there were reports that WBM took photos on his way up to the CDI. I even put a post on MZT re this topic- as it could change the timeline…..

    • Good In Parts

      Shelock

      Thank you for weighing in on this. And yes, my timeline is based on WBM having finished taking photos by the time he spots SM ‘ahead’ of him at the “T” junction.

      Do you remember the source for this?

      • Shelock

        GIP
        I’m so sorry. I think it’ll be almost impossible to find out the source. I’ve already tried it out so often as it could be a quite important piece of interest…. I even tried to find my post over at MZT. It looks like MZT has enabled all the blogs re Al Hilli on her website.
        Do you have any idea where your info re “taking pictures” has come from?

        And beside all: who knows if this part of info had been correct? Would’t be the first time that the press gave false information….

        • michael norton

          As I’ve mentioned before
          “No doubt The FRENCH AUTHORITIES have taken dabs and DNA from the al-Hilli camera /passports.

          One would have expected they have taken dabs and DNA from William Brett Martin
          to eliminate him from their “enquiries”

  • James

    GIP

    Have to say, I recall nada about WBM taking photos.
    In the interviews he gave, he merely states he was passing through the “village” and was aware of a rider (on a sports bike) ahead of him.

    Clearly (or unclear, but it’s there), a photo was taken of the Al Hilli group (minus the “grandmother”) and so someone must have taken that family picture (I assume, the “grandmother”).

    However “Max” felt it was taken by “someone else” (referring to reports of “an arrest” in the U.K. of a ex Royal Marine taking photos of houses near where the Al Hilli girls where situated. I understand, on questioning, he was looking at houses for sale….or that is what was indicated in reports).

    • Shelock

      I know what you’re talking about. But that’s not what I’m meaning. That’s a different one.
      I remember clearly that I’d put it at MZT’s blog.
      Do you (or Lars) have any idea if there’s any chance to find it there?

      Just another question: I’m searching for a certain word. How do the native speaker say when news are forbidden to publish by state or so?
      As it happended for some time in this story. Any idea?
      Thanx so far

  • James

    I have my doubts whether the Al Hill group were ever at the Flat Iron building.
    For some reason, I believe that photo may be “placed” in the public domain for some reason.

    I think there was a 15.15 photo taken. And it was of the Al Hilli group (minus the “grandmother”).
    And that was taken at the Flower House.

    The reason for that thought is “three fold”.

    WBM recalls SM in front of him. WBM is not “grinding out” his ride. He is merely “riding his bike”.
    And yet WBM “fails to note” the Al Hilli family and/or car parked at the Flat Iron building.
    He doesn’t say “the car that past me, was the car I had seen parked up earlier”.

    The second reason is, the “last photo” seems altered.
    The shirt worn by Al Hilli in that picture looks “odd”. One side does not match the other.

    It is “more likely” he drove from the “Flower House”, directly to the Martinet….
    …and in doing so, past LFR
    The builder was asked initially, did you see the Al Hilli car AND was anyone following it.
    His answer was “Yes” and “No”. The “time” came later.

    Thirdly, the “earlier departing ONF2 and LMC” did not see or pass the Al Hilli car.
    It would be impossible for them to miss Al Hilli, if he had made “two visits” to the Martinet.

    So, why place Al Hilli at the Flat Iron building ?
    Is it that, the Flat Iron building is relevant to the murders that took place ?
    It may well be.
    The Flat Iron building, or rather the “parking” available there, may well have been used by the killer.

    The police used the term “ambush”.
    For an “ambush” to be successful, I would say the “ambusher” has to have advanced warning his target is en route. Not that “he will turn up”, but that “he will turn up shortly”.

    A simple scenario….

    SM passes the Flat Iron building, he is seen and the biker departs for the Martinet.
    By the time WBM passes the Flat Iron buildings, there is no one there.
    ONF1 passes through the car park. The biker has arrived.

    From this point onwards, there is a problem.
    ONF1 does not say he sees WBM or SAH. He says he sees “only, a BMW 4×4” (and prior an MC).
    WBM and ZAH are both separately aware of a “large vehicle/4×4”.

    If the “large vehicle/4×4” seen by WBM and ZAH was ONF1, why doesn’t ONF1 see SM and WBM ?
    We can assume that he “mistook the BMW 4×4 as SAH in his car”, but can he complete miss WBM and SM ?

    The MAIN question (if this scenario is anywhere near the truth) is…..
    Why Place Al Hilli At The Flat Iron Building ?

    The answer maybe simple.
    If you had “hired” a killer and knew he would be lying in wait at the Flat Iron building, you would be wondering if the Al Hilli camera had taken any photos of him.
    Maybe you be forced to contact the killer to see if he had seen the Al Hilli family there. It all adds to the pressure of being discovered.
    The initially investigation would appear to be “Al Hilli focused”. That “last photo” was not released until later. Did the focus of the “prime victim” change ?

    Look again at the photo.
    Note…. the right and left of SAH’s shirt.
    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02827/hillisUSE_2827089b.jpg

    But all this, does not answer the basic question. Why didn’t ONF1 see SM or WBM ?
    If the timings are “correct”, then the “questionable” large vehicle/4×4 seen by WBM and ZAH could possibly be the same….and if ONF1 “mistook” SAH for the “speeding BMW X5”, then he should have seen “everyone else” without fail ?

    It’s a mystery why the police haven’t said “the large vehicle was…….”.
    But maybe that’s their “ace in the hole”. Or the only “ace” they have.

  • James

    …also Tom Parry.

    He has “suggested” the last photo wasn’t the last photo.

    I thought he meant “there were later ones”.
    Now I think he meant, “that IS the last photo (we see) BUT it wasn’t taken there”,
    The “last photo” isn’t the “last photo”.

  • michael norton

    If you go up Route du Moulin ( route I suspect Sylvain Mollier took),
    to join Route Forestiere Domaniale de la Combe d’Ire,
    on the left is the wood yard, on your right is a carved pyramidial plinth

    anyone know what it is?

    • michael norton

      45°45’25.13″ N 6°13’22.63″ E

      it is fine work, it seems to have words carved, could be a war memorial but is only about one metre high.

  • James

    Ever thought… why does no “live witness” report see another witness ?
    ONF1, ONF2, WBM. They never saw each other ?
    Then we have “ONF1 v WBM” and the “large vehicle mystery” !

  • Good In Parts

    James et al

    “If you had “hired” a killer and knew he would be lying in wait at the Flat Iron building, you would be wondering if the Al Hilli camera had taken any photos of him.”

    Indeed. Doesn’t have to be the Al Hilli camera they are worried about either.

    “If you had “hired” a killer and knew he would be lying in wait in Chevaline (on Route de Marceau Dessus within sight of the “T” junction with Route de Chevaline i.e. where WBM saw SM ‘ahead of him’), you would be wondering if the WBM camera had taken any photos of him.”

    Sorry for short response tonight, shall try to catch up tomorrow.

  • James

    MN

    ZAH saw (we believe) a 4×4 vehicle…and would have passed WBM (no idea if he was noted by her).
    The point being, there is “lack of” collaboration between “live witnesses (specifically ONF1 and WBM).

    GIP

    I still don’t buy into WBM taking photos.
    If SM had passed the Flat Iron building “just prior” to the MC leaving, WBM would not have seen the MC.
    And that’s the point….

    On passing the Flat Iron building, WBM “sees” neither the MC or SAH
    If SAH was there, which he should have been if he later over took WBM on the route up to the Martinet, then why does WBM see him/them/the BMW ?

    WBM was not “an ex RAF man”.
    He WAS a “fast jet” pilot. A fighter pilot.
    He IS an airline pilot.

    If he’s “any good” (and I believe he is) he would have done (by instinct) the one thing you always do. And that is “be aware of your situation”.
    A UK plated BMW would have been “subconsciously” noted. That would have been “reaffirmed” when it later past by. It would have been “pinging” when he later found it at the Marinet.

    I don’t believe the Al Hilli family were at the Flat Iron building !

    • michael norton

      Zainab al-Hilli, would have seen her mother, her father, her sister and her “grandmother”
      she would have seen the shootist, indeed been up very close, she might also remember William Brett Martin, she would probably also be aware how many cyclists/motor cyclist and to a lesser extent any other vehicles.
      She would probably KNOW if the woman described but not seen was her “grandmother”
      she would probably been aware of the mood, prior to driving up the Combe of Ire.
      She would probably grasp the ethnicity /language of the shootist, she might know if there were more than one bad man.
      She might know quite a lot?

  • Good In Parts

    James

    “If SM had passed the Flat Iron building “just prior” to the MC leaving, WBM would not have seen the MC.
    And that’s the point….

    On passing the Flat Iron building, WBM “sees” neither the MC or SAH”

    Because … neither SM nor WBM passed the ‘Flat Iron’ building. They both arrived at the fork in the road just north of the old sawmill via Route de Chevaline.

    However I am unsure about LMC (if he actually exists!). He may have passed the FIB, but on balance I think he probably followed the same route as SM.

    You also noted that:-

    “If SAH was there, which he should have been if he later over took WBM on the route up to the Martinet”

    Here is a quote from the ‘award winning’ Sunday Times Magazine article dated 2nd Dec 2012 by David James Smith.

    “Martin thinks the climb from Chevaline had taken about half an hour. It has been reported that he was overtaken by Mollier on the way, but what Martin says is that he saw Mollier ahead of him”

  • James

    “…..neither SM nor WBM passed the ‘Flat Iron’ building. They both arrived at the fork in the road just north of the old sawmill via Route de Chevaline”

    Now, I thought BOTH took that route (the lower road) to the start of the Combe D’Ire.
    It’s the “direct route” there, from where they came from.

    I did’t think EITHER of them took the other route (the top road), passing where the builders where working.

    I stand corrected. I never knew that.

  • Good In Parts

    I am still exercised by lack of clarity re the emergency call.

    In the programme “Les grands dossiers karl zero – La tuerie de chevaline” there is at approx 4 min 30 sec, a blacked-out profile interview with PB (captioned as ‘Didier’).

    Please can someone with better french than mine post a translation on the offchance that he says anything interesting. Thanks.

  • James

    MN and GIP

    Have we a “confirmed route” taken by SM and WBM ?

    Did they take the “high road” or the “low road” ?
    I have searched all the relevant “news” articles…and I cannot work out their route to the Combe D’Ire.

    Any help please ?

    • michael norton

      What are THE BIG SECRETS THE FRENCH
      are trying to hide about Sylvain Mollier?

      From the off he has been described as a passing cyclist – a lost cyclist – a person of no interest.

      Why no recent photograph of Sylvain Mollier?

      Why no actual route he took?
      Why no reason given for him to leave the baby and go for a cycle ride?
      Why was his common-law-wife driving to the police station reporting him missing, he was a grown man cycling in his back-yard,
      why on earth would she be so concerned-so quickly?
      Why has it not been definitively been told where he worked – what his actual job involved,
      why have we not been told what his recent connection – disconnection with his firm involved,
      was he still on the pay-roll – was he still involved with them undertaking some “special duties”
      why the court cases paid for by who?

      Why no complete back-story of Sylvain Mollier?

      Why have we not been told if the investigation has been switched to focus on Sylvain Mollier to having been the main target?

  • Good In Parts

    James

    At first sight it does seem reasonable that SM would take the most ‘direct route’, ie route de Moulin, this was indeed suggested in early reports, see URL below.

    http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/la-tuerie-de-chevaline-a-l-epreuve-du-chronometre-13-09-2012-2162933.php

    I guess that ultimately WBM’s testimony won out in the end, because by the Panorama programme WBM is clearly depicted spotting SM ahead of him in Chevaline itself.

    When I looked at a road map of Doussard it appeared to me that the traffic flow had been ‘shaped’ using one-way sections such that it would be ‘easier’ to follow the designated main road from the cyclepath through to Chevaline rather than ride via the route de Moulin.

    I could easily be wrong, french cartography symbols are not my thing and they do drive on the wrong side of the road.

    What it all comes down to is do you trust WBM ?

    • michael norton

      I think Syvain Mollier would have gone the quickest way, which likely would have been Route de Moulin, passing the Flat Iron Building.

      Reason one: Sylvain Mollier was at home caring for his new-born infant,
      he telephoned his common-law-wife, who was working in her pharmacie business in Grignon,
      “”Claire, come home now, I have to go out right away on urgent business on my bicycle,
      you know the sort of business I am involved with”.
      Reason two:
      I think Sylvain Mollier was supremely confident in himself, he would go where he wanted and would not baulk at going the wrong way, disrespecting normal road procedures.

      • michael norton

        Sylvain Mollier went out immediately Claire returned to take over care of the infant.
        This was unusual, as she had to leave her business at very short notice to accomodate him,
        this was no ordinary pre-planned outting.

  • James

    GIP….

    I have to go with MN’s points.
    From the cycle path, Route Couardet, Route des Cotes, Route d”Arnand, then onto Route du Moulin.
    It’s the fastest and most direct route to the Combe D’Ire.
    On that basis (and in lieu of any official release), I believe it’s highly likely SM passed the Flat Iron building.

    At some point WBM joins somewhere…behind him.
    And that’s curious…..
    …if WBM was never overtaken by SM, then where (and when) did he sight him ?

    I ask that because…. didn’t WBM say “he thought it was unusual to see a racing bike going along that route”.
    Along what route ? He wasn’t anywhere near the Combe D’Ire at that point.

    Maybe you’d think “There goes a racing cyclist. He must have come from the cycle path…and heading home”.
    Or “He must have come off the cycle path…and will be stopping in the village”.

    How did WBM “assume” SM was heading to the Combe D’Ire ?

    If SM left the Route des Cotes and joined the Route d’Arnand….
    …and WBM was coming from Doussard along the Route d’Arnand, then it must be at that “junction” that SM was ahead of WBM. That’s a “nice bit of road”. There is nothing unusual of a racing bike being there

    Infact, here is a racing cyclist on that very road…..
    https://goo.gl/maps/PpBQo6vF1Xr

    Odd ?

    • Good In Parts

      James …

      He may indeed have said that at some stage however in his BBC interview he stated:-

      MARTIN:“No, not at all. It’s a national park, like any national park there are numerous sort of roads that lead to car parks where walkers park their cars and go for walks. Mountain bikers ride up , road cyclists ride up – it’s not at all unusual and I’ve been there ten or twenty times over the years. And sometimes it’s empty, sometimes it’s four or five or more cars there. It just depends whether it’s for example a Sunday afternoon or a mid-day, mid weekday.”

      Perhaps in your quotation WBM was aluding to the fact that SM was on an extremely expensive racing bike, of the type most often seen in a velodrome, which does seem a tad unsuited for the potholed track up the combe. In any case WBM does not seem to think it unusual that road cyclists in general should ride up there.

      See deadzone61 for full text of Tom Symonds interview with Brett Martin.

      • Peter

        The idea that it was somewhat unusual for someone on a road-racing bike to go up that route was mooted by various journalists, not by WBM, who ought to know better.

        Many or most quiet country lanes in the area will be just as potholed as the Combe d’Ire, and local riders will have adjusted to that circumstance (e. g., by using sturdy rims with a few extra spokes). Look at the Paris-Roubaix bicycle race to see the kind of knocks that quality racing bikes can take without falling apart.

        • michael norton

          Peter, I grasp that riders on expensive racing cycles go up mountain roads

          but why did the FRENCH Authorities continue to describe Sylvain Mollier as just a passing cyclist.

          He could only have been a passing cyclist,
          if he had been on a mountain bike and was going on a through route?

  • Good In Parts

    Random thought for the day.

    If there were only two motorcycles, and I am correct about the ONF2 – ONF1 order and timing, then le GG has to account for both the ONF1 and WBM sightings.

    So, how does that work ?

  • James

    GIP….

    Planted stories !
    As in, it was all about the bike SM rode (so Eric “said”).

    Other than “up the Combe D’Ire”, it wasn’t unusual for SM to be around that area on his “racing bike”.
    And, afterall, his uncle said “he was a regular (ish) visitor to that area”.

    And hey presto…. the fact that SM was riding that route, in reality becomes “not impossible at all”.

    The next question then is….
    …why the big thing about Claire’s dad saying “I told him to try a route that wasn’t this one” (paraphrased).

    Things become “clearer” (or less confusing) if we say “SM was riding a route which was known to him”.
    Now, if he’d “told someone” that he prefers “this route”, SM becomes “more of a target” than SAH.

    Now WE make think twice about taking a “five thousand euro” bike up that road, BUT he won’t.
    So what is SM doing up at the Martinet ? He’s doing what he always does !

    I go back to the term “ambush”.
    To ambush someone, you first need to know where they are going.
    Now in SM’s case…. I bet it was “known” he was going there.

  • James

    Further….
    …if WBM’s “large vehicle” is indeed ONF1, then ONF1’s “BMW 4×4” has to be SAH !
    But if that is the case, then why doesn’t WBM see SAH at the Flat Iron building (SAH overtakes WBM later).

    Answer….because SAH was never at the Flat Iron building.
    The police theory is “SAH back tracked”.
    I doubt it. There’s a big sign giving directions. If he was there, he’d have seen it.

    I think SAH left Arnand and entered the Combe D’Ire passing the builders.
    SM and WBM entered via the lower road.
    The “vehicle” seen by WBM and ZAH was ONF1.

    The “rub” is….
    ….ONF1 “denies” seeing SM, SAH and WBM.
    But why ?

  • Good In Parts

    James

    “The “vehicle” seen by WBM and ZAH was ONF1.”

    We have arrived at the same conclusion from opposite directions ! Or rather, we have SAH and the cyclists arriving at the combe from opposite directions.

    The “rub” is….
    ….ONF1 “denies” seeing SM, SAH and WBM.
    But why ?

    Beca u s e . . . . of the sighting that he doesn’t deny.

    The MC.

    • michael norton

      “If”
      William Brett Martin had been cycling along Route de Marceau,
      from his holiday home in the commune of Lathuile,
      he would have crossed over the Ruisseau de Bornette – a brief, half a Kilometer ride, through this “leg”
      of the commune of Doussard, he would be on Route de Marceau Dessus, for a Kilometer in the commune of Chevaline.
      W.B.M. would have then had a choice – he could have ridden along Chemin du Moulin to join Route du Moulin in the other leg of the commune of Doussard – spotted S.M. at this point
      or W.B.M. could have ridden along Chemin Rural dit de la Grande Combe to encounter S.M. coming along Route du Moulin at the wood yard.

      Either of these routes – would would be compatible with W.B.M. account.

      • michael norton

        FRENCH airport security under SCUTINY after EgyptAir crash

        Security throughout France’s transport system has been tightened since the Paris attacks in November

        http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/20/french-airport-security-under-scrutiny-egyptair-flight-ms804-crash

        ecurity at French airports is under scrutiny following the EgyptAir crash. French air transport police have been checking all staff at Roissy/Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris who came in contact with the Airbus A320 during the hour and five minutes it spent on the tarmac before it took off for its flight to Cairo.

        The French president, François Hollande, has said no theory is being ruled out after flight MS804 disappeared off radar screens over the Mediterranean with 66 people aboard.

        Gérard Arnoux, an aeronautical expert, told Libération: “I can state that it would be possible for a person to introduce a bomb in a plane at Roissy. Staff are regularly checked, but airports aren’t fortified places surveilled by huge equipment like thermic cameras, which means anyone could throw a package over a fence.”

        Sébastien Caron, director general of ASCT International, an air safety consultancy, agreed: “A baggage handler could very well, once the bag has been checked, add a booby-trapped case to the hold.”

        • michael norton

          Woman in court after 11 children bitten by dog in Blyth Park

          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-36349340

          Claire Neal, 37, of Chasedale Crescent, Blyth, pleaded not guilty to a charge of being the owner of a dog that was dangerously out of control.

          Three of the children were taken to hospital after the incident in Blyth on Wednesday.

          Ms Neal was remanded in custody by magistrates in Newcastle and will next appear at crown court on 3 June.

          Northumbria Police said two other people arrested have been bailed and their investigation is continuing.

          The BBC understands the dog has not been destroyed.

          Right, now obviously this has bugger all to do with Murders in The Haute-Savoie of South East FRANCE

          but can we take note how quickly this woman has been named and taken to court for a dog biting children,
          just a day or so.

          Then compare the shooting death of Nicole communal-Tournier in Lathuile, Haute Savoie,
          apparently five local men have been detained for more than two years for her killing but not one of them has yet been publicaly named and as far as we know not one of them has been seen in a court house.

          Can anyone think of ANY POSSIBLE REASON why five local men could be held unnamed for more than two years and not be produced in court for the killing of Nicole Communal-Tournier?

          • michael norton

            Madame Nicole C.T. lived with her husband in the Camping Ideal, in lathuile, a stone throw from the holiday home of William Brett Martin, the apparent discoverer of The Slaughter of the Horses.

            Six days after the public release of the E-FIT-SKETCH of the mysterious biker
            Nicole was shot dead in her home in Lathuile.

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