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7,866 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued

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      • bluebird

        Yes, it is correct. I linked the older one here because it explains in detail the background of that freemasonry/DSGE group of professional killers. I did not link the current article about the ammunition because it just says that the ammunition found with that group is the same one used in the al Hilli murder and it is extremely seldom.

  • Squonk

    Some more info

    Potential new lead in unsolved Annecy killings

    There maybe a new lead in the unsolved murder of three members of a British family and a French citizen in Chevaline near Annecy in September 2012.

    The British family included the 50-year-old Iraqi born Saad al-Hilli, his wife and her mother. A passing French cyclist was also shot and killed.

    Their four-year-old daughter survived by hiding between her dead mother’s legs.

    The killings have remained unsolved.

    But following a recent raid on a criminal gang in Paris which is made up of former police and military officers, all belonging to the same Freemasonry lodge, could provide further clues.

    Police say some ammunition seized matches the type used in the Annecy killings. Investigators say the type of ammunition is rare.

    • bluebird

      If we are going to read the text of this forum in 2012/2013 again, we’ll find a lot of evidence for the freemason connection of the al Hilli family and the not very unlikely DSGE connection of SM. Given that basic evidence these new findings support my first idea that there were 2 killers, one of them was SM (obviously belonging to that group of ex DSGE professional killers), but SM got heavily injured by SAH’s car while SAH was trying to flee, speeding away and rolling over SM shortly before SAH and his family was shot dead by the second killer (by SM’s colleague). SM, heavily injured, was then executed by his partner (from now evidence pointing at him as a “victim”) because the killing of a witness is a usual tradition when professional killers are unable to leave the scene of a killing.

  • intp1

    There is nothing very special about the 7.65 mm parabellum ammunition reported to have been used and found at Chevaline.
    So when they say matched, to unused ammunition (i.e. without any marks or striations from firing down the barrel the bullet travelled down) what has been matched?

  • Good In Parts


    “Police say some ammunition seized matches the type used in the Annecy killings. Investigators say the type of ammunition is rare.”

    The ‘type’ of ammunition is ‘rare’ in the sense of being rarely seized by the authorities when investigating gun crime. I guess that this is mostly because very, very, few weapons were designed to use it and those that were are pretty much expensive collectors items these days.

  • Good In Parts

    ToE at LMP ver 3

    For reference here is version 3 of my estimate of the timing of events at le Martinet parking.

    15:36:00 – SAH party arrive at le Martinet parking
    15:37:30 – SM arrives – shooting starts – WBM is approx 202m away
    15:38:00 – SAH reverses up against the bank – wheels begin to spin
    15:38:10 – shooting finishes – WBM is approx 112m away
    15:38:30 – the killer starts to leave – WBM now approx 70m away
    15:38:45 – WBM notices Zainab staggering in the middle of the road and hears her cry out as she falls flat on her face
    15:39:00 – WBM arrives – moves Zainab to recovery position
    15:40:30 – WBM moves SM
    15:41:30 – WBM checks car
    15:42:00 – WBM breaks side window and stops engine – tries his mobile but cannot get a signal
    15:42:30 – WBM starts back down the combe to get help
    15:44:30 – WBM meets PB et al
    15:44:59 – first emergency call made by PB to the SP at the request of WBM
    15:46:00 – WBM plus PB et al start back up to le Martinet
    15:47:30 – WBM arrives back at le Martinet parking
    15:48:00 – PB wigs out and tries to assault WBM
    15:48:30 – approximate time PB makes second emergency call to the SP

    The shooting itself takes 40 seconds ie 21 shots at an average rate of one shot every two seconds. Two magazine changes are required.

    NB almost all of the shots occur when WBM is within 200m of le Martinet.

    NB WBM is at the scene of the crime for three minutes and thirty seconds (ie less than four minutes) before departing downhill to get help.

    NB the BMW digs-in to the bank for approximately four minutes before WBM turns off the engine.

  • michael norton

    Before the al-Hilli Killings, a smartly dressed man of possible Southern/Eastern European/Mediterranean/Middle Eastern look
    talked to at their first campsite.
    It has been suggested because of that talk, the al-Hilli party moved to a different campsite.

    Has this smartly dressed man come forward or otherwise been identified?

    • michael norton

      I feel fairly sure that poor Sylvain did extracurricular work for members of the French Government, maybe it was legit maybe it was less than legit but I am quite sure, if Sylvain was caught out, any charges would melt away.
      I expect that Mr.& Mrs. al-Hilli did extracurricular jobs for the U.K. Government as did W.B.M.
      Perhaps it might be more precise to say they engaged in activities that were of use to Five Eyes.
      Possibly Sylvain did extracurricular activities that were of use to the French secret services.

      If these three parties were mostly singing from the same English Hymn sheet, why the massacre?

  • michael norton

    A very interesting development is happening in the U.K.
    The reassessment of DNA samples, a single hair
    body in the bag mathematician on loan from GCHQ to MI6 Gareth Williams.

    If the U.K. authorities can re-open the case on a single murder, with just a hair,

    it could , if wanted , lead the way to re-open a case involving four murdered at a scene in France?

    • michael norton

      like William Brett Martin, Saad al-Hilli and Sylvain Mollier
      Gareth Williams was also a keen cyclist!

      You could imagine being a keen cyclist could be very useful in your work as an agent.

      “No fingerprints, palm-prints, footprints or traces of Williams’s DNA were found on the rim of the bath, the bag zip or the bag padlock.”

    • casperger

      Will this hair be shown to belong to Alexander Mishkin, or Anatoly Chepiga?
      That would prove the fabulous Novichok stories to be true, after all.

      • michael norton

        There were 10 to 15 DNA traces in the flat from which it was not possible to gain full profiles, but all other DNA profiles and fingerprints had been eliminated, said DAC Hewitt.

        I think six weeks should be enough time to get DNA from one hair?

  • Good In Parts

    The tragic anniversary approaches. How many years now?

    As michael norton first noted:-

    Justice delayed is justice denied.

    • michael norton

      Attack on the Olympic Village
      For more than a week, the Games unfolded without incident. The day of terror began at 4:30 AM on September 5, 1972, when eight Palestinian militants affiliated with Black September—a militant offshoot of the Palestinian group Fatah—scaled a fence surrounding the Olympic Village in Munich.
      Funny how things align
      or not funny but designed to align.

  • RickiTarr

    I have been here since the beginning and have just read about the developments with the DGSE French Paras/ Masons kill team in Paris! I think all these things were discussed originally when the thread started! There was definitely a connection to Areva in Africa and the Parachute Regiment that guards their sites! It’s Great to see the thread still going and people still investigating!

  • Good In Parts

    Thanks for that link MN.

    ‘They were said to be carrying out work including ‘examining inconsistencies in the testaments of witnesses’ linked to the marathon enquiry.’

    The core inconsistencies caused by the ‘ONF swap’ were identified and corrected here on this forum several years ago. So where could ‘new’ inconsistencies come from?

    One possibility is that the re-interviewing of the two girls brought something up that needed resolving.

    Another possibility is that they finally tracked down the other mobylette rider and have some questions that need answering. For the avoidance of doubt, I think it likely that he is the killer.

    • michael norton

      Good in Parts, well who could the witnesses actually be, most were killed.
      One witness or almost witness, could be W.B.M.
      Two other witnesses would be the al Hilli girls.
      Let us for a while focus on the girls. The youngest was said to have been four years old. It was ludicrously claimed she hid for hours beneath the legs of her dead mother in the bullet ridden car, with the three dead family members, undetected by detectives.
      This is almost certainly not true. Perhaps what happened the seven year old took the four year old into the trees to have a wee.
      That might be when the shooting started. Inconsistencies could be the different perspectives of the differently aged children.

  • Good In Parts

    MN, respectfully I have to disagree with you on this matter, see below:-

    “La plus petite, quatre ans, sera retrouvée huit heures plus tard, en état de choc mais indemne, cachée dans la voiture familiale, sous la robe de sa mère.”

    If this were not true ZAH would gone public about such nonsense by now.

    The link below notes that there was no information released about the re-interviewing.

    One final point, a new proc has been appointed, so a new broom and hopefully a reinvigorated investigation.

  • Good In Parts

    Plusieurs témoins ont été convoqués et appelés à revenir sur les lieux, pour redonner des détails en temps réel sur leur expérience. Line Bonnet-Mathis, procureur de la République à Annecy, a ainsi décrit à France 3 «un acte d’enquête classique». «Ce n’est pas lié à de nouveaux rebondissements et on ne s’attend pas à découvrir des choses particulières. Il s’agit d’un déplacement juste pour vérifier certains éléments», poursuit-elle. Selon Le Point , il s’agirait plus particulièrement de retracer le parcours du ou des tueurs, et de le chronométrer, le juge d’instruction ayant «émis des doutes sur la faisabilité du trajet et sa vitesse d’exécution».

    So… they have had nine years to get the timeline nailed down but they still have doubts…

      • michael norton

        “French businessman is alleged leader of hit squad investigated over shooting of British family in the Alps”

        “They were said to be carrying out work including “examining inconsistencies in the testaments of witnesses” linked to the marathon enquiry.”

        What about the Pharmacist, his bird?
        I am not sure if she is classed as a witness?
        It has been said that Sylvain was looking after their small son, on the day he was slaughtered, as she worked in her family shop. It was never stated where Sylvain was that day, looking after his son?
        She claims she got a call to say he had to go out urgently for a cycle ride, so she would have to shut the Pharmacy and look after their small son. That always struck me as nonsense.
        She was at that time the main family bread-winner. You can’t just shut a Pharmacy, unless it is an emergency.
        So, if any of what she said to the police was true, there was much more that was not made public.

        Policeman, “what did he say to you?”

        she can’t just answer some random nonsense, even a French policeman would know, you can only shut a Pharmacy because of an emergency.

        So, Sylvain or whoever rang her, must have said what that emergency was?

        • michael norton

          Not only we we not told, where Sylvain, that day, was looking after their small son, we were also not told how the hand over happened.
          Did he drive to her to hand over the child, did she drive to him to hand over the child or were they all in the same building, him in an adjacent room?
          Did perhaps he hand the child to another person, as this cycle ride was so urgent?

          • michael norton

            The hand over of the small child, might be key.
            If it was so urgent, he had to hand the small child to a third person, then, his bird had to close the Pharmacy to rush to her child, that would indicate a rather serious happening.
            If he was merely walking the child in the pushchair, close by the Pharmacy, then mobiled her to say, could she take over, he fancied a cycle ride, then he walked back to the family shop and she could have the child in the shop and not have to shut the Pharmacy, that would indicate he was selfish, ignorant and maybe not such an emergency.

  • Good In Parts

    I have been musing about the 8km diameter exclusion zone and in particular the overflight ban apparently included in the court order.

    Then there was the mention of forensics officers being involved and an odd reference to the need to preserve evidence.

    I am speculating here but I wonder whether the overflight ban was solely due to privacy concerns or perhaps to suppress aircraft noise to allow renewed acoustic propagation testing in the combe.

    Another possibility is to allow the gendarmes to carry out lidar scanning of the entire combe and surrounding area using their own aircraft or drones.

  • Good In Parts

    Arithmetic on the south east frontier.

    Consider a combe. Four motorcyclists enter, two are seen leaving and another rider comes forward and states that he exited circuitously and unobserved.

    Question:- How many motorcyclists are unaccounted for?

    (If you are french, you may use a calculator.)

  • Shelock

    I remember, in the early days after the killings, it was reported that ”military types” had been spotted at the crime scene along with the police.
    People wondered why …..
    Am I right?

  • Good In Parts


    You noted that it was reported that ”military types” had been spotted at the crime scene along with the police.

    I do remember that this was reported, in addition it was said that some at least of the ‘military types’ were from the British Embassy in Paris.

    • George

      I saw a photograph of this group on BBC news at the time. A group of 15 individuals with I think the deputy British Ambassador from Paris. With I think a helicopter in the background. The group of young fit man were wearing what looked like identical dark navy suits. The only time I had seen that picture. I thought afterwards it was removed because of D Notice. Maybe military personnel that they had to go and buy suits for at the time. I don’t think they were SIS. There was also an Israel red line at the time with Iran and nuclear development. Bibi presented his case on a flipchart. Al Hillis was in that area outside of school holidays when his daughters should have attended school. Maybe a good cover story to have the family with him. A remote area to collect/exchange anything with third parties. Bret Martin was an ex RAF pilot who flew during his RAF carer with a special weapons Squadron. He was of New Zealand origin as well. He also had a company who’s registered office was in Exhibition Road, opposite the UK science museum. He had large sums of money going through his company bank account before the incident, similar to Christopher Steele and Trump gate Russian Dossier. To me everything smells of SIS and Israel involvement.

  • michael norton

    If you want to try to understand what happened, you have to think why it happened.
    From the start, I always assumed that the main target was the Frenchman.
    Most murders are very local in nature. Only a few murders are done by military style hitmen.
    This murder was undertaken by military style hitmen.
    So, here two things are opposed.
    Sylvain was French and local and he was killed relatively local to where he lived. However her was killed in a military style.
    So, even if it was just Sylvain slain, you have rather unusual circumstances. However, adding the slaughter of most of the al-Hilli family, you have an astonishingly unusual circumstance. Add to that the death on the same day across the Atlantic of Mrs. al-Hilli’s previous husband, this is almost unique. Then factor in that Sylvain worked in the Nuclear Industry, that his bird’s uncle was a high up politician, these crimes, do become unique.

    • michael norton

      As these crimes were unique, that reduces the random element. If not random, then it was planned.

      It is extremely important to understand, exactly what happened from that phone call. The phone call that let the Pharmacist know he was dumping their baby so he could go cycling.

      • michael norton

        One passtime that links all three males is cycling.

        Gareth Williams, “Spy in the bag” was also a cyclist who met an unexplained death.
        Cycling is a very good way of moving about quietly, observing, passing on secrets, that sort of thing.

  • Good In Parts

    An interesting quote from below:-

    La mission des gendarmes consiste à « vérifier si quelqu’un est passé à côté de quelque chose ».

    So, what could this mean?

    In my view most of the inconsistencies in the timeline arose from the statements of the ONF employees however the whereabouts and timing of the TBR are also poorly defined. My best guess is that the latter is getting some attention. Was he the motorcyclist seen at Le Martinet parking by ONF1 ?

    And lets not forget the other motorcyclist.

  • michael norton

    It seems fairly clear that Sylvain had to go to the killing spot, on that day.
    His bird ran the family business and he had to dump their baby, so he could go cycling, this involved her shutting the Pharmacy, then her contacting the police because she was very concerned.

    So what was relayed to her by phone, just before she shut her Pharmacy?
    Who contacted her to inform her?
    Where was Sylvain when he dumped the baby?
    Who did he dump the baby with?

    If he dumped the baby with a third party and if it was not him who contacted her to let her know he had dumped the baby because he needed to go cycling, then a very important set of circumstances was being set in train.

    • michael norton

      The two men “killed” belonged to NATO countries, France and U.K.
      A third man was also on the scene from the Land of the Silver Fern but once a member of the U.K. armed services.
      Two men arrived by cycle
      Sylvain and W.B.M.
      This “grouping” means an exchange, not a massacre.
      So either Sylvain was expected to be passing something to a member of the al-Hilli party
      or a member of the al-Hilli party was supposed to be passing something to Sylvain
      or they were exchanging.
      W.B.M. was most likely the observer or protector.
      If we rule W.B.M. out as being the killer, then the killer or killers also knew this meet was going to happen.

      I am imagining that W.B.M. was there to report to the U.K. that the “hand over” went as expected?

      • michael norton

        What is astonishing, is that W.B.M. “The Observer or Protector” heard nothing and did not see the killer/s.

        So he neither Observed nor Protected?

    • Pink

      That will be interesting thanks for the heads up, I guess three parts is quite good as the mass of the audience probably won’t have paid as close attention as we have and yet they are not doing a hit and run on it I will remain optimistic .

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