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7,866 thoughts on “Not Forgetting the al-Hillis continued

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    • michael norton

      Hello Good in Parts,
      I have speculated that the killer was driven up the combe as a pillion passenger and probably made the first shots into Sylvain while both were in motion.
      What is the French motorcycle theory?

  • Good In Parts

    Sound and Fury

    So far this year has provided a lot of activity and many, many, interesting factoids, unfortunately only a few factoids actually advance our understanding of the tragic events.

    When I get a chance I shall comment on factoids that may impact the timeline, rather than just being ‘interesting’ . But for starters there was the re-interview of Zainab. What do people here think of her testimony? Does it take us anywhere?

    The surprise to me was the likelyhood that the killer got right in the thick of the action very early on in order to grab hold of Zainab from behind.

    OK, you could argue that by grabbing Zainab he could ‘control’ both her and, by holding a gun to her head, also Saad.

    But the killer would lose stand-off distance and the use of one hand ie he could not reload without letting go of Zainab. His bare hands could have transferred DNA to her clothing. Never mind the increased difficulty of shooting accurately whilst restraining an unruly child (she did try to escape from his grip).

    So grabbing Zainab smacks of desperation to me, more the actions of a robber or a local lunatic than a focussed killer. Still it may explain the killer pistol whipping her. It may also shed light on the reasoning and actions of SAH.

  • intp1

    @Good In Parts September 17, 2022 at 17:11

    if you read a good part of the previous page we have been discussing such matters as Zainab’s interview.
    Little to nothing is shed on the timeline though perhaps at least some insight as to the sequence.

    IMO the timeline is a) potentially contaminated by misinformation but b) even if we could be supremely confident of the timeline, so what? Is it not just scenery for a kind of public parlor game? Getting in the way of the important question: Why?

    • michael norton

      For the French people to be able to accept that this investigation is untainted, if a person was at the murder site at the time the murders were happening, if this person was so honourable that it was impossible for the authorities to believe that they could have been involved, that reason, for that person being honourable, should be properly spelt out.
      Otherwise, some French people might imagine that not all people were equal under the law?

      • michael norton

        General Directorate for External Security

        Apparently it is now thought, that operatives or retired operatives of the
        are involved in violent crime.

  • michael norton

    At present we seem to be in a time that is de-globalising, we also seem to be in an intense MIC build-up, also in a time of intense rivalry for fuel/power. Perhaps the events of ten years ago up the combe in France were a herald for what was coming down the line? Sylvain worked in the Nuclear Fuel Industry. Modern submarines use Nuclear Fuel. Recently we had AUKUS. That was partially about U.K./U.S.A. and Australia edging France out of a deal to supply submarines to Australia. Countries kill for a lot less.

  • Bacchus

    Journal portuguais du 12 JANEIRO 2022
    “Um segundo suspeito de origem iraquiana foi igualmente detido na sequência de uma denúncia. Um ex-presidiário denunciou um homem identificado pelas autoridades por “S” que tinha estado preso no mesmo estabelecimento prisional. Alegadamente, “S” terá dito que lhe tinha sido oferecida uma “elevada soma de dinheiro” para matar outros israelitas a viver no Reino Unido. “S” foi libertado no dia seguinte, após ter sido averiguado que não estava em território francês na altura do crime.”
    traduction (google)
    “A second suspect of Iraqi origin was also detained following a complaint. An ex-convict denounced a man identified by the authorities by “S” who had been detained in the same prison. Allegedly, “S” said that he had been offered a “large sum of money” to kill other Israelis living in the UK. “S” was released the next day after it was discovered that he was not on French territory at the time of the crime.”
    kill other Israelis?

    • intp1

      Difficult to read between the lines and the machine translation but key points:
      Last January, two people questioned by Chevaline investigators in Portugal who had been in prison together.
      One of whom was still in prison, of Iraqi origin, offered info that he was approached to kill “other” Israelis who lived in UK. He could show he was not in France at the time of the massacre.

      Q) Israelis other than who? Was the released convict an Israeli? was the person of Iraqi origin actually an Israeli citizen? Were any of the Al Hilli party secretly Israeli? Was a contract being shopped to the convict which identified the targets as Israeli? But they were actually the Al Hillis? Was who offered the contract Israeli?Is it a typo or mistranslation??
      Hard to imagine who would arrange or accept a contract on Israelis. An extremely dangerous to suicidal proposition. Unless it was Israelis on Israelis.
      Many more questions than answers but if true, it does seem to show that the investigators are still interested and active.

      • michael norton

        As far as i am aware, none of the people killed up the combe, ten years ago, have ever been said to have been Israeli or of the Jewish faith. That is not to say the killers could not have been Jewish or Israeli.

  • intp1

    @michael norton October 10, 12:47
    I agree, it is unlikely that Chevaline was an Israeli operation because it was not up to crack Israeli standards. Some possible motives could be to strike against help for Iran (SM’s nuclear related metallurgy, SAH’s Satellite imaging?). However, while there is evidence it was well organized, this was not an operation with e.g. massive support such as remote situation suite, real time satellite imaging etc. Too many little errors e.g. Zainab; she could/should have been killed but was not. She should have been left alone or eliminated per the plan, not shot and beaten about the head and left to chance. Killers wore no gloves per Zainab is a biggy for me. That is a shock since it suggests not even basic professionalism?

    On an entirely different subject, I recently noticed something which put a nail in WBM’s coffin. I know some believe what we are told, that he is an un-impeachable ex-RAF hero and I am like terrier who won’t let go 🙂 but I noticed that a namesake of William Brett Martin is the false identity of the officer who was dumped in the Med by British Intelligence during WW II with false invasion plans (Operation Mince Meat). Major William Martin. Gotcha, just too many strikes against this not very confidendial spook for me.

  • michael norton

    Interesting twist.

    In 1998, after the British Government identified the body as Glyndwr Michael, a new inscription was added to the gravestone:

    Glyndwr Michael Served as Major William Martin, RM
    Y Dyn Na Fu Erioed (translation – “The Man Who Never Was”).

    I think it is well known that spooks reuse names, again, and again.

      • michael norton

        I expect most of us have assumed that the honourable motorcyclist from Lyon is a French person – through and through.
        However W.B.M is said to have originally hailed from New Zealand, then joined the R.A.F. Then at least in part, resided in this spies area of France, close to a Nuclear Fuel Facility, sharing a common interest in cycling up this very same combe as Sylvain Mollier?
        Both New Zealand and the United Kingdom are in Fives Eyes, meaning their Intelligence’s are often shared and their people/operatives may also be sometimes shared.

        Perhaps the honourable motorcyclist is not French, through and through?
        Perhaps he also shares an affinity with a Five Eyes state?

        • michael norton

          If somebody new were to take control of this investigation, they could demand concise questions be asked.

          There are possibly scores of direct questions that could be posed.

          Let’s try a few.
          1) Why is there little back-story to Sylvain Mollier.
          Was he alternatively employed by a security service.
          Who contacted Sylvain on that fateful day to demand he cycle up that combe.
          Where was Sylvain when he got that call.
          Who did he hand his baby to, after he got that call.
          What did he impart to his bird, as to why he was dumping their baby to go cycling up that combe.
          Why did his bird ring the authorities as he left to go cycling up that combe.
          What was involved in Ms. Shutz conversation with the authorities.
          Did they immediately call on her to be absolutely sure of that which she understood.
          Did they immediately involve the security service of FRANCE to go up that combe.

  • Good In Parts

    Pop Quiz

    Think you have a good grasp of the tragic events at Chevaline? Try the following pop quiz:-

    1) How many times did WBM go to le Martinet parking that day?
    2) How long did WBM spend at le Martinet in total?
    3) Who did he have a telephone conversation with whilst he was at le Martinet?
    4) How many times was SM phoned up by his ex whilst he was en-route to Le Martinet?

    Good luck – answers will be posted in about a week – unfortunately I still have only occasional ability to post.

  • Michael

    The authorities in France have had a decade to come up with an idea, who could have done this killing and who could have requested this killing.
    They seem to have alighted on next to nothing.
    I suggest they do not actually
    want to know the answers?

  • Bacchus

    A BFMTV youtube “Chevaline, les survivantes de la tuerie” shows interesting new photos. I need that someone of you can say the motobiker’s name, so I could verify a hypothesis. Thanks.

      • michael norton

        O.K. I’ve found out how to get the written translation up.
        I have learnt next to nothing from this vid.
        I very much doubt that the brother of Saad was involved in the murders.
        There is no talk of Sylvain being alternatively employed by the security services?
        It seems pretty obvious to me that this assasination was prepared.
        Sylvain did not know what was about to occur.
        He is the sap.

        The security services of France, may hold at least part of the explanation.

        • michael norton

          Perhaps Sylvain could be described as a “sleeper”.
          A fit, accomplished person who had been pre-installed in a “sensitive” occupation setting.
          He had, had some training.
          He was, maybe, interested in being involved in the world of spies.
          He was activated on that day, ten years ago and killed.
          In this scenario, the main focus of the “operation” would be people from,
          the al-Hilli party?

        • michael norton

          When I wrote the brother of Saad al-Hilli, I should have specifically named him as Zaid al-Hilli.
          The man from Surrey, said to be a full-brother of Saad.
          It is quite believable that half-brothers from previous relations of their father, maybe in Iraq, exist or have existed.

          I am gently thinking that the Eastern Mediterranean/West Asian, smartly dressed gentleman, who Saad encountered at their first camp-site, could have been a half-brother from Iraq.

      • Bacchus

        On YouTube “Chevaline, les survivantes de la three”, the seven photos shown clearly that the family stayed a long seven time in the same place on the Route du Moulin. Maybe too long…

  • Good In Parts

    Pop Quiz Answers

    1) How many times did WBM go to le Martinet parking that day?
    A) Three times.

    2) How long did WBM spend at le Martinet in total?
    A) Approx two hours and ten minutes.

    3) Who did he have a telephone conversation with whilst he was at le Martinet?
    A) His wife.

    4) How many times was SM phoned up by his ex whilst he was en-route to Le Martinet?
    A) Twice, apparently he did not answer the first call but did answer the second.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    Whilst you are gently thinking about ‘encounters’ at the first camp site you might recall that some kind of argument or dispute occurred there.

    It was reported some time earlier this year that this fracas actually left the tent and caravan in disarray. This information presumably came from the re-interview of Zainab. Additionally it was noted that one of the (adult) women was discombobulated to the extent that they actually wanted to leave.

    As a committed motorcycle theorist who thinks that SAH and party were not specifically targeted, I have not bothered to run this one to the ground. However you may think the incident relevant to your own theories, particularly given the bonnet-tapping incident at the second campsite.

    • michael norton

      Thank you good in parts.
      Would you be able to expand on your
      “committed motorcycle theorist”

      As an aside.
      One of the murdered people, Sylvain, worked in a nearby Nuclear Fuel Facility.

      At present the French Nuclear Reactors are partially closed, part of the reason given are corrosions/age but also lack of Uranium.
      Most of the Uranium used in French Reactors is dug out of the ground in Former French Colonies in Northern Africa.
      The American/French built a drone facility at the International airport in Niamey, the capital of Niger.
      This is where they facilitate their Reaper Drones.
      It is currently known as La base aérienne 101 Niamey

      Much of the Yellowcake that is used in France comes from Niger.
      There is a lot of upset, because of the dust from the open cast mines.
      Breathing Uranium dust is not good for you.
      The French are detested, apart from the Elite they bribe.

      Now the Chinese and the Russians are paying bigger bribes to the Elites.
      So, it would seem the Nuclear Fuel Chain is being rested from the French/Americans and taken by the Russians/Chinese.

      • michael norton

        If these murders ten years ago in France, with one of the murdered people being reported as having worked in a Nuclear Fuel Facility,
        was about Nuclear Fuel Technology.
        That would certainly be enough reason to kill multiple people.
        Nuclear Fuel is hard to get.
        There would seem to be an uptick in the Nuclear Industry, scarce resources are being fought over.
        Russia is in top spot.

  • michael norton

    Springfields, Lancashire, England.
    This is where the U.K. makes its nuclear fuel, since the Second World War.
    So, long before we had Nuclear Power Stations.

    Still not sure where the U.K. actually obtains the Uranium, Canada, perhaps?,Westinghouse)%20near%20Preston%2C%20Lancashire.

    As E.D.F. is constructing Hinkley Point C in Somerset and as they will run the plant, when it is completed, I guess they can obtain the fuel from France?
    Getting hold of the Uranium from Africa, seems to be fraught with dangers.

    • michael norton

      There are several Uranium mines around Agadez.
      Niger Air Base 201
      is the U.S.A. MQ-9 Reaper Drone base,
      also a call in stop for Globemaster aircraft.
      It would seem that after a lot of unrest in The Sahel, the Americans are keeping the French Uranium mines under scrutiny.

      There are certainly a lot of extra costs to secuer Uranium.

      • michael norton

        Niger Air Base 201
        “The base is about 5 km southeast of Agadez.
        It is owned by the Nigerien military but built and paid for by the United States of America. It is operated by the U.S.A. military as a drone base. As of February 2018, the site consists of a runway, still under construction, a hangar, and numerous smaller buildings for personnel to work and live in”

        I think I am agreeable to the notion that there is Islamic fundalmentalism in The Sahel, that they sometimes blow up Natural Gas Plants and take out aircraft but possibly the main reason for French and American drone bases in The Shahel, is to guard the Uranium facilities?

        Keeping hold of the facilities is fundlemental to both France and America
        Meaning that they would kill to keep hold of them.

  • Good In Parts

    @michael norton

    You asked:- “Would you be able to expand on your committed motorcycle theorist” Here is a first pass:-

    A motorcycle is, in my view, the most likely form of transport used by the killer and I have advocated this for many, many, years. That does not exclude the killer making his final approach to le Martinet parking on foot, which I think likely.

    Here is my most recent proposal posted back in April 2020 –
    “Mobylette Madness version 3”

    Note that a specific motorcycle sighting (by the excellent witness CA) is identified as likely being the killer. No one else that I am aware of has made this identification. In my view the motorcycle used probably had some off-road capability

    The gendarmerie do not mention their failure to find the motorcyclist. See my post here
    “Arithmetic on the south east frontier.”

    Actually it gets worse, les gendarmes have also failed to find the motorcyclist observed by farmer Janin up near the col.

    On a positive note, the re-interview of Zainab in 2022 revealed that the killer wore ‘long trousers and a leather jacket’.

    At the very least, the ‘long trousers and leather jacket’ are not inconsistent with motorcycle theory!

    Which raises the question; Why did les gendarmes not use her testimony to issue an appeal for tips at the 10 year anniversary?

    • michael norton

      Good In Parts
      “Motorcycle Theorists

      Seems like we are all motorcycle theorists now.

      Even the french.”

      When you say “Even the French”
      Are you meaning French Press?
      Or are you meaning the French Prosecutor
      or other?

  • Good In Parts

    Grange de Travers

    Although I favour an exit route via le Reposoir down to the Giez area using the cleared ground under the pylons, there exists a whole skein of intersecting tracks that work just as well.

    One of these that looks nice goes through woodland via the Grange de Travers and ends up in pretty much the same area. Here is a link to a site that models VTT trails quite well. You can easily use it to estimate timings for off road motorcycles.

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    “Le Parisien has now obtained unpublished enquiry paperwork which recommend that the killer might have been unknown to all his or her victims.

    Gendarmes working to inspecting magistrates have advised that there are actually three suspects who might be liable for the carnage: Mr Martin; a businessman from Lyon named as Pierre C.; and a 3rd man solely recognized as Suspect X.

    Mr Martin and Pierre C. deny any wrongdoing, and declare to know nothing concerning the killing in anyway, Le Parisien states”

    And yes, you did read that correctly, les gendarmes apparently do still suspect WBM. The quote below seems to imply that they think he mis-directed them at the very least.

    “Mr Martin’s testimony about “the thriller biker” is taken into account essential to the enquiry, however, in line with Le Parisien, gendarmes have advised that Mr Martin might have used it to “direct investigators to a foul working concept”.”

    As to Suspect X (or Monsieur X in some links)

    “Le Parisien didn’t supply additional particulars concerning the Suspect X concept, saying he might be anybody, from an area rambler with a gun, to a motorcycle rider or bicycle owner.”

    This, combined with Zainab’s testimony that the killer wore ‘long trousers and a leather jacket’, seem to offer some small measure of support to the motorcycle theorists amongst us.

    So there you have it. The source being “unpublished enquiry paperwork” leaked to Le Parisien. Make of that what you will.

    See link below. It might also be worth checking out the Le Parisien article if you can access it.


    • michael norton

      a 3rd man solely recognized as Suspect X

      I wonder if X is the first letter of his name as in
      Saint Francis Xavier, the patron saint of missionaries

      • michael norton

        If there are now three candidates in the sights of the prosecutor, the one to eliminate is probably W.B.M.
        Although he is white and he did man handle Zainab, he would most probably not have been dressed in long trousers and leather jacket. Also, if W.B.M. was the killer, he would have buggered off.
        So, we are now to think of Candidate X
        or the biker from Lyon.

        Perhaps, Candidate X,
        could be the mystery person, who rang Sylvain to tell him to cycle up that combe?

        Possibly, all three of these candidates were involved, in some way, transporters/watchers/back up
        but which was the killer.
        Well, I know nothing of Candidate X

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    Your use of the word ‘candidate’ is apposite because they haven’t really got a true ‘suspect’ as far as we know.

    Mr Martin and LMC (Pierre C) must surely be off the table by now. All they have is a placeholder catch-all candidate who may be on a MC, on foot or on a VTT.

    That’s progress. And I don’t say that ironically. They now know a MC was probably involved and they know there were sightings of MCs in the area that they have not yet been able to find.

    vorsprung durch technik as they say

    • michael norton

      Good In Parts,
      Questions could be

      1) What communications occurred between members of the al-Hilli party and third party, in the 24 hours leading up to their slaughter?
      2) What communications occurred between Sylvain Mollier and third party, in the 24 hours leading up to his slaughter?
      3) What communications occurred between the bird of Sylvain and others, in the 24 hours before the slaughter.

      • michael norton

        I wonder in what context should we put “CandidateX”

        Is “CandidateX” a person who is known to exist, as in the Authorities have this person’s name and where they reside?
        Or is “CandidateX” a complete unknown?

  • Good In Parts

    michael norton

    You wrote; “Is “CandidateX” a person who is known to exist, as in the Authorities have this person’s name and where they reside? Or is “CandidateX” a complete unknown?”

    My interpretation is that Candidate X is not an identified and named person but rather an ‘unknown’.

    That is not to say that nothing at all is known about them. This last year or so has added a number of likely attributes to our ‘picture’ of the killer but unfortunately no single factoid that would lead to an identification.

    For example; the recent testimony of Zainab indicates that the killer was a ‘nail biter’ (ongles rongles in french) and may be left handed or ambidextrous.

    It seems likely to me that the gendarmerie will have made other deductions which they have wisely not released to the media or the public.

    • michael norton

      another good question, would be,
      who paid the killer to do his dirty work?

      I have always believed that Sylvain was entrapped.
      Some person, on that fateful day, rang Sylvain
      and “encouraged” him to go cycling up that combe.

      Has that person been talked to?

  • Good In Parts

    Here is a post I made on page 215 of this thread back on November 13, 2016 at 20:04. The question still stands and, if true, is more important than ever in the effort to identify and find all of the motorcyclists present on the combe. Gotta catch ’em all!

    Was the baby thrown out with the bathwater?

    When the gendarmerie finally tracked down LMC and excluded him (95%) from consideration, they were then able to reverse the ‘ONF swap’ and determine a more reasonable order of events and timeline.

    I guess that most observers and gendarmes now think that ONF1 saw SAH in his BMW rather than the putative X5. I also guess that they now think that ONF saw TBR at Le Martinet parking, if indeed he saw anyone there at all, as he passed through.

    I guess that ONF1’s stock is so low that his testimony is effectively discounted.

    If my guesses are correct, there is a small possibility that ONF1’s detailed report of a stationary MC at Le Martinet parking is more accurate than his report of the BMW.

    After all, in his public account, TBR did not claim to have seen ONF1 at Le Martinet parking. Wise beyond his years, he claimed that during his sojurn in le forêt he ‘didn’t see nothing’ and I guess that he stuck to that mantra.

    Thus when the hapless Eric claimed that ‘all vehicles are identified’, that may not have included a discounted sighting of an MC by ONF1.

    It’s low probability, but worth a look.

  • michael norton

    Grignon, Communaute d’agglomeration Arlysere
    The new Pharmacie Schutz in Grignon, (image date 24/07/2022) looks very posh and expensive.
    Looking at the old Pharmacie Schutz ( image date June 2013) there are four windows in the roof at each end of the building, and lots of windows in the roof at the rear, overlooking the firefighter’s building.

    So, it seems very likely that other people would be renting the rooms in the loft from the family of Ms. Schutz.

    Of further interest, perhaps, Dr. Christian Esteve seems to be based at
    61 Rue Joseph Martin

    • michael norton

      No doubt, all the business owners, such as Material Medical have been debriefed by the police.
      No doubt also that and other people residing in the property of Pharmacie Schutz have also been debriefed?

  • michael norton

    Material Medical, now seems to be inside the new Pharmacie Schutz

    29 Rue Charlot Raymond, 73200 Grignon, France

    Latin – Materia medica
    The term derives from the title of a work by the Ancient Greek physician Pedanius Dioscorides in the 1st century AD, De materia medica, ‘On medical material’ (Περὶ ὕλης ἰατρικῆς, Peri hylēs iatrikēs, in Greek).

    The term materia medica was used from the period of the Roman Empire until the 20th century

  • michael norton

    I have in the past suggested that Ms. Schutz and family retained a flat above the chemist shop in Grignon.
    There are enough rooms in this property, including the loft, to house a dozen people.
    There is also the semi detatched downstairs property.
    I am not saying ( I do not know) that the family Schutz owned the entire property
    but a lot of people will have lived in this building.

  • michael norton

    April 6, 2019 at 10:58
    Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Ire

    How strange, that Sylvain Mollier was shot multiple times in the head and chest in Savoie/Haute Savoie at a remote lay-by/parking spot on a route known as Route Forestière Domaniale de la Combe d’Ire

    Then now we have a chap who was into Black Ops for the French state, found shot multiple times in Head and chest in a remote parking spot in the Haute Savoie
    and his name is given as Forestiere
    Quelle coincidence?

    Perhaps one of this persons ex-accomplices is Candidate X
    Lucinges is thirty miles from the site of the slaughter of the horses.

    • michael norton

      “Forestier had been shot five times in the thorax and the head.

      The Lucinges mayor said everyone in the village of 1,640 residents knew Forestier had worked for the country’s intelligence service.”

      I can quite readily believe that this person or his work mates undertook a killing role in the slaughter of the horses.

      • michael norton

        The bullet-ridden body of a former French intelligence officer was found in his car beside the road in the Alps. Daniel Forestier, who stood accused of plotting to assassinate an opposition politician from Congo-Brazzaville, was found covered in blood in Haute-Savoie, near Lake Léman. Officials from the police stated to the Guardian that the victim was killed “execution style,” the postmortem revealing he’d been shot five times in the heart and head.

        Forestier had written multiple spy novels after serving 14 years in the General Directorate for External Security (Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure, or DGSE). Reportedly, Forestier worked in the Action Division, a clandestine unit tasked with paramilitary operations and nuclear security. The unit is also closely related to the French Special Operations Command (Commandement des Opérations Spéciales, or COS).,%2DSavoie%2C%20near%20Lake%20L%C3%A9man.

        If there really is “Candidate X”
        then this person or people from his aqaintance, go right up on my list

  • Good In Parts

    Mainstream Media now Motorcycle Theorists?

    “There is another route to the Martinet car-park – the old Route de la Combre d’Ire. It is little more than a path, known mostly to locals and passable for motorbikes, but not cars. At least two motorbikes were seen in the Bauges Massif that afternoon. Did the murderer reach the Martinet car-park by the old path and flee by the same route?”

    Quoted from ‘The New European’ dated 3 September 2022 12:00 AM

      • Good In Parts

        michael norton

        Although the article does explicitly state “He had recently married for a second time.” I do not think that is correct although he was co-habiting. It is possibly a translation ‘thing’.

        More interesting is this quote “Mollier is known to have been alive at 3.28pm. He broke off from his daily cycle ride to answer a mobile call about childcare from his ex-wife. He seemed breathless but otherwise normal.”

        Since early in the investigation we have been led to believe that the phone call from his ex-wife ended at 15:32 (in some quotes 15:32 precisely. Thus the phone call would have been a minimum of three minutes long and a maximum of four minutes long

        Which seems a bit long for her to mention childcare then him to say he will call back when he gets to the top of the climb.

        So what else was said on the call?

  • Good In Parts

    This quote is interesting – see link below.

    “Ainsi, toujours d’après Le Parisien, la justice avait déjà pu réduire le nombre d’armes à examiner à 3.000 grâce à cet indice. Cependant, jusque-là, les recherches n’ont rien donné, d’où l’appel de la juge à rester vigilants et à signaler toute découverte, même lorsqu’elles ont été utilisées pour des cambriolages ou des suicides.”

    So, the grip fragments narrow down the serial number to 3000 weapons.

    My estimation was 7000 (see link below) so presumably there is some factor in addition to the type (or colour) of grip material that allows the gendarmes to narrow it down still further.

    • michael norton

      good in Parts

      I don’t know much about guns, although as a teenager I used to fire shotguns, 22 rifle and 303 rifle.

      I would possibly be willing to accept that the grips could be replaced?
      They will either be held in place by screws or glue or more likely screws and glue.
      In much used guns, especially if used in close combat conditions, I expect the grips can crack.
      Replacement grips must have been available over the last one hundred years?

      • michael norton

        I am suggesting that if we are expected to understand, that the slaughtering was done using a one hundred year old Luger, if this weapon had, had much use over those years, then it is quite likely that the grips had been exchanged for new grips, maybe several times?

        • Good In Parts

          michael norton

          One can infer that the fragment found was from a factory fitted grip plate because otherwise the gendarmes would not be able to narrow down the serial number to 3000 weapons.

          My first guess is that it is from a so-called ‘Red Luger’ and that the grip was made of canevasite that had become embrittled and friable. My second guess is that the Luger in question was one that was not actually issued to the Swiss forces but sold to a private buyer or gunsmith. I seem to recall that WFB continued to sell this model to private purchasers until 1946.

          • michael norton

            Good In Parts, I take your point, that we are expected to understand that the grips had never been changed.
            In one hundred years? In that case, This weapon must have been a collectors item for most of that time!
            No weapon that was more than ninety years old and had been often used could be 100% as new.
            One of the famous things about military weapons is that parts are interchangeable.
            They even teach army bods how to strip their weapons.

            I am afraid I cannot believe that the grips would have been the ones that the weapon was fitted with as new.

            I also do not think the French Police/security services could be that naive.
            If it is true they have greatly narrowed down the weapon, then there must be other stuff they have or know
            other that fragments of grip.

          • michael norton

            Motive first

            who actually pulled the trigger is probably less important.
            Who ordered the slaughter?

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