Shootings in France 479


Let me be upfront: none of my usual contacts, so far, has any knowledge about the very clinical murders in France of the Iraqi origin British Hilli family. I have seen various internet reports of the links of Mr Hilli to the defence industry and that the French cyclist victim was linked to the nuclear industry. I am not immediately concerned that the other cyclist who raised the alarm was ex-RAF; had that fact been sinister, it would have been hidden or he might not have raised the alarm at all.

In short, I really do not know what is happening here and I don’t think normal hierarchies within British security agencies know either. It may be genuinely random, or not. I am not posting to speculate or to spread knowledge, but because unless I do post, commenters will derail other threads to discuss this. Should I discover anything, I will let you know. But we may well never know; we still don’t really know who killed JFK, or Hilda Murrell. There is always an answer, but it is not always known to the public.

No excuse can justify the failure to identify and help the poor little girl who was still alive in the bottom of the car. Discovering if anybody was alive in the car should have outweighed every other consideration for the emergency services. Protocols for the dead will not help them much, whatever they may achieve for abstract justice. The living are easier to serve well, and this was a gross failure.


479 thoughts on “Shootings in France

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  • oddie

    one can only hope the MSM doesn’t carry this by a member of the Knesset!

    Sept 9: Israeli delegation honors 9/11 victims at Ground Zero
    The delegation, headed by Public Diplomacy Minister Yuli Edelstein, arrives in New York to honor victims of the Twin Tower attacks • Edelstein: Attack was example of destructive capability of terrorists sponsored by Iran….
    “The horrific attack was an example of the destructive capability of terrorist groups governed, motivated and supported by the terrorist capital of the world — Iran. Here, one can understand how dangerous a nuclear Iran would be to Israel and the entire world,” Edelstein said at the site….
    http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article.php?id=5733

    utterly disgraceful.

  • OpenSourceIntel

    Approximated Timeline:
    13:00: Family leave campsite in dark red BMW.
    14.30-15:00: Witness (French builders) see dark red BMW drive up the alpine road.
    15:43: ex-RAF cyclist overtaken by cyclist Sylvain Mollier; witnesses motorcycle and dark green 4×4 vehicle speed towards the scene.
    15:43-15:48: Four victims shot within 30sec by two gunmen, each receiving two bullets to the head.
    15:48: ex-RAF arrives at the scene.
    15:48-15:58: ex-RAF: sees Sylvain Mollier lying dead; breaks drivers window, turns off engine; sees injured girl outside of car; puts girl in recovery position.
    15:??: Witness swerves to avoid white Peugeot racing away from the scene.
    15:58: ex-RAF called emergency services / Police first notified.
    16:20: Police arrive at the scene.
    23:00: Police notified of second girl.
    23:59: Police open doors to find second girl hidden and alive.

    Some sources differ on the time that ex-RAF calls emergency services, some say 15:48, others say 15:58/16:00. Not really too much problem here though as timeline calculated in reference to that event.

    Immediate discrepancies:
    – ex-RAF only reported seeing two vehicles speeding towards the scene, if the road leads to a dead end, then he must have seen each vehicle speed away from the scene also, before he arrived at it.
    – What was ex-RAF’s reasoning for turning off the engine first (or at all)? Surely first priority would be checking on the occupants of the vehicle (through fully broken out window in rear left).
    – Why it took 10 minutes before he reportedly called emergency services? Is this incorrect reporting?
    – Why was girl outside of the locked car? Were all doors in fact locked?
    – Was the dark green 4×4 and white Peugeot actually the same vehicle, just differing accounts?

    Further discussion:
    – Two bullets in each head indicates professional killing.
    – Mass bloodshed generally avoided unless perpetrators intending to send clear message to others.
    – Professional killing involves extended surveillance and intelligence collection. Fact that child hidden in the car indicates that: 1) gunmen knew there was another child in the car but didn’t kill her or 2) gunmen were oblivious to this fact. If 2), then this indicates sloppy surveillance and probably not state-sponsored or botched job.
    – Fact that child shot in right shoulder (away from vital organs) and pistol-whipped indicates to me that she was deliberately not killed. If the gunmen wanted her dead they would have done so. Was she shot in the crossfire?
    – Did gunmen intend to cause memory loss by striking her head violently? Did they know that the 4-year old wouldn’t be treated as a reliable witness?
    – Did the gunmen know that the second cyclist would only be minutes away, why not kill him too and buy more time to escape smoothly?

  • tony roma

    raf asset part of the hit team or the mr bean protection and defective surveillance.
    stayed to clean up for hit crew or engaged crew before they finished the job.
    royal airforce on a push bike is bullshit.
    even mr bean has a car.
    poxy french police know it was the iraqi’s bike but part of the bullshit cover.

    the kids head trauma and medically induced coma and use of SCOPOLAMINE is all you need for total memory loss.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3KMYWgiapg

  • straw44berry

    Anders, you kept thinking that the French cyclist maybe the primary target…..

    If the French cyclist was cycling towards the car when the gunman from the cover of the trees by the road, steps out after he passes and shoots 5 bullets into his back. The cyclist comes to rest where the tarp right by the BMW is seen later. Assassin comes to the fallen cyclist and 2 more shots to the head.

    But if the assassin has been waiting for the French cyclist he is aware of the family in the BMW. But perhaps the ex-Raf guy is one of the little girl’s ‘good men’ and he is there for their protection while their father is meeting the ‘bad man’-the French cyclist who has been sending metals to Iran for nuclear…. The ‘good man’ becomes a ‘bad man’ when he doesnt just observe but shoots the French cyclist and continues by shooting the only material witnesses. This would only work if he already pre-planned becoming the British cyclist and taking the bike from the roof, but he told the family to put the bike there as it would explain why they went down that road in the first place.

    Perhaps the 4yo was never in the car seat, the 7yo was and the 4 yo was already sitting on the floor by her mothers feet. Who was in the front passenger seat? The ex-RAF guy who protects the family and told them he has to meet the ‘bad man’. While there waiting for the French cyclist the 7yo wants to go to the toilet and gets out of the car.
    The ex-Raf man makes sure the 7 yo girl cant tell the police anything when they arrive.

    This would explain why the 4yo doesnt know the good men from the bad.

    I want to ask the 2 bricklayers was there a bike on the roof of the BMW, & were there 2 men sitting in the front.
    The green 4×4 turns suspicion to that.
    The lady in the village saw no more than a bad driver on a bad bend but was a convenient diversion, for more leads.

    Why so many shots? The 3 adults killed from the front passenger seat and then shot thru the windows afterwards to cover up.

  • felix

    Quick reality check.
    Which, if any, of the “facts” in the timeline have been independently – i.e. not directly from the police by named witnesses – verified? “Witnesses”, eg the mysterious bricklayers and RAF cyclist, can so easily be invented. Can anybody point me to any real evidence for anything which is alleged to have happened?
    Known facts: Mr Al-Hilli lived in Claygate, had certain business interests in the UK (which the press is strangely uninterested in), was on holiday at a campsite near Annecy, and his car is photographed from above by the press with shattered windows. Is that all?? We are all speculating on stories fed to the press in what seems to be a massive security lockdown. Think spies in bags, people found dead in woods.

  • nevermind

    Circumstantial evidence points to some sort of tracking device, easily installed during a ferry crossing to France. With little time to kill, no bullet cases were picked up and the girls were kept alive, barely, the operation did not go well as intended, imho. So timing was everything and without having lookouts and comms., this would make sense, although mobile triangulation could have done the same, as already mentioned, but with more effort.

    Whoever killed them, had to have precise timing and up to date info. I’m sure that the French secret service is going over all comms on that day with a tooth combe and will soon be able to answer journalists questions, fat chance.
    Another point about the all wanting to know media, spot the journo’s not in attendance, those who were told not to attend or bother.

    Why so many shots? to be sure, another hint at the perpetrators, wasn’t Gerald Bull shot multiple times? The assassins seemed pumped up, eager to take revenge for something or other.

    Thanks for the great links from some of our newbies here.

    As for the trusted words’ don’t trust anyone’. Usually when they are muttered its to confuse, the reality of their meaning shines through in British society today, a largely disinterested electorate that is apathetic and does not trust anyone, a divided left, divided trade union movement, politicians pretending to be at each others throat to keep up the pretence, all in the spirit of ‘in division we trust’ a recipe for the status quo. Divide Iraq into sectarian strife and you have guaranteed access for years. The same master plan is at work screwing Lybia and is being prepared for Syria and Iran. Tighten the seatbelts!

    If we fall, we should fall united, could be the answer, but that would divert from all that individualism they have instilled in society, the me me me in us.

    That said, I’m off for a days work, shall look forward to the first builder identifying passengers in any of the cars, or having seen anything……. not very much, don’t forget we are talking of a strange alpine, mostly conservative thinking part of France’s population, multi lingual, almost swiss in much of what they do….

  • felix

    Anders7777 brings up an interesting Al-Q story (i.e. M16-CIA) about the Algerian physisicist Adlene Hicheur of CERN, ex-Rutherford Appleton Lab (Daily Mirror) and who allegedly (Guardian) suggested striking at the barracks of a battalion of elite Alpine troops in the eastern town of Cran-Gevrier. Which is a suburb of Annecy, which in turn is not so far from CERN.

  • felix

    “tighten the seatbelts” @Nevermind
    Which reminds me that nobody is curious whether any of the three BMW passengers were wearing them.

  • felix

    http://www.facebook.com/DerekReed276 says (Telegraph last night) that Al-Hilli (work colleague) would not have had to sign the OSA “for what he was doing” at SSTL. Bricklayer now named, Laurent Fillion-Robin.
    BBC 10.19am today: Meanwhile, French police have confirmed the death of Mr al-Hilli’s 74-year old mother-in-law, but have not named he Why not ?

    Army bomb disposal experts have arrived at the Surrey home of a British man, shot dead with his wife, mother-in-law and a cyclist in the French Alps.

    Surrey Police have evacuated neighbours and closed the road around the home of Saad al-Hilli, amid concerns over items found at the house in Claygate.

    here we go …WMD stored in Claygate no doubt (not). Time to hoist the false flag again.

  • felix

    Police had been struggling to identify the elderly woman, and could only confirm she held a Swedish passport.

    But local prosecutor Eric Maillaud told AFP: “Evidence gathered in Britain has enabled us to establish that the woman was the maternal grandmother.”

    What a load of nonsense. Why not ask Sweden? (if indeed anybody here is Swedish)

    The Times has a photo of the alleged bricklayer (paywall).

  • craig Post author

    Anders 777

    I don’t mind being called a Machiavellian Shill. Your contribution to a fascinating thread has been very good, and you are welcome. Doubtless you may think I have some Machiavellian reason for saying so 🙂

  • Jon

    @anders7777 – please be careful when quoting other people to make it clear it is a quote, otherwise it looks like you said it. Use the [blockquote] tags or quotes – I’ve fixed a couple of your posts now.

    @all – can I make a request, in a personal capacity, to reduce the number of accusations of gatekeepers/trolls/whatever? Ignore people if you think they’re out to disrupt. Let’s try to avoid a bun-fight please 🙂

  • macky

    “one of the little girl’s ‘good men’”

    I think this is not actually words spoken by the four year old girl; instead it was one of the French cops, who in explanation of why the girl stayed hidden for so long, was that he thought it was because she was afraid that the cops were (still the) bad guys; not 100% on this, but it was the way I read in, and would a four year old really be able to say something like “I wasn’t sure who were the good or bad guys” ? If the seven year old had said it, then that’s different, and maybe, just maybe, she will !

  • nuid

    “says (Telegraph last night) that Al-Hilli (work colleague) would not have had to sign the OSA “for what he was doing” at SSTL.”

    @Felix, That must be where I read it. Thanks.

    @Jives, “I fear terrible years ahead for those two poor young girls.” Me too. The after effects will be horrific.

    @oddie “utterly disgraceful”. Yes, the bastards may well have been involved themselves, but they’ll point the finger at Iran whenever they can. Disgraceful as you say. Anything to get Iran bombed, by somebody, somehow, if not by themselves.

    @Felix “Surrey Police have evacuated neighbours and closed the road around the home of Saad al-Hilli, amid concerns over items found at the house in Claygate …”

    Didn’t someone ask only yesterday, “What will they plant there”?

    @Itllbeme: A lone nut? We’re not that naive, mate.

    @macky “I think this is not actually words spoken by the four year old girl; instead it was one of the French cops” That’s what I thought too. It wasn’t intended to be a direct quote.

  • felix

    Sylvie Lecouer, 49, coming back from grocery shopping, is nearly run off the road by the elusive, speeding Peugot 30 [Mirror]
    Mrs Lecoeur, who was driving back from a supermarket near Chevaline, said yesterday: “He was coming down the hill on the wrong side. I was terrified…..“There was one man behind the wheel. He was a white man. He had thick, jet black hair, which was cut short. He was wearing a black shirt, a polo neck. He looked very agitated.

    “He was driving as though he was in a car chase. That’s why he only saw me at the last second.

    “He gestured with his hands like he was desperate to get me out of the way. I see it happened just after 4pm because I looked at my receipt from the shop.”

    Too much detail for a split second encounter. Has fake written all over it.

    Going where,exactly, with her groceries?? The car park at the end of the dead-end road?

  • nuid

    “Going where,exactly, with her groceries?? The car park at the end of the dead-end road?”

    This is a problem regarding all of these sightings. We don’t know exactly where the 4×4 or the motorbike or the white car were supposedly seen. If they were seen going up this dead end road, were they not seen coming down? What did the RAF man see exactly? If he saw the green 4×4 going up that road, when did it come down?

    What direction were the cyclists going in? The French man and the RAF man? Were they going up that road, or coming down from the walking/cycling track that the road turns into? I can’t get a picture of where these sightings were, or who passed who when/where.

  • felix

    Interesting, little reported detail (perhaps limited hang-out to fill out the picture being painted…) in the Australian (and probably by the Times (paywall):
    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/witness-describes-the-final-movements-of-the-hilli-family-in-the-french-alps-shooting/story-fnb64oi6-1226470712911
    Well spotted by Anders7777 over at Icke:
    The shooting was reported to police at 3.58pm by a former RAF serviceman who was cycling past.

    What, after he has done everything else which the alleged “ex-RAF cyclist” was supposed to have done? Or before?? Still smells fake.

  • straw44berry

    4:00 PM–or a few minutes afterwards. Sylvie Lecouer, 49, coming back from grocery shopping, is nearly run off the road by the elusive, speeding Peugot 306 driven in a panic by a crewcut man with black hair and black polo neck shirt. “HE WAS COMING DOWN THE HILL ON THE WRONG SIDE” He was a British driver…

    From here:-

    http://scotlandyard.blogspot.co.uk/

    First time I have heard that this was also a British driver

  • guardianist

    Why is the Guardian suppressing posts which mention that both men were engineers in the nuclear or aerospace industries? The following was posted last night but has been removed by this morning as not meeting their community standards. All this information is well established fact and is in the public domain. What is going on if the Guardian are behaving like this?

    Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, who had taken previous holidays in the area.

    What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?

  • felix

    @straw4444berry
    It is speculation, or what we are being led to believe. More from the mysterious Sylvie Lecoeur [Daily Express this time]
    She said: “He was coming down the hill on the wrong side, and I was coming back up the hill towards my house on the right. I was terrified because the car was right in front of me.

    “At the last minute he braked and swerved and so did I so we just avoided hitting each other. It was a small white car, maybe a Peugeot 306 or 206
    http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/344705

    Yet gives a better description than I could of someone sitting opposite me on the train for an hour. False trail.

  • nuid

    “On the video on this link it is clearly stated that 3 of the 4 killed were hit by ‘projectiles in the head’ but we are now told all 4 are, arent we??”

    Some early reports said they didn’t know how the younger adult woman died, as she had no visible wounds. Then that changed to all 4 having bullets to the head.

  • Mary

    WTF is happening in Claygate? Yesterday we were told the fire brigade was called in. Today it’s the bomb squad and evacuation of the neighbourhood with attention focused on a large workshop/shed at the bottom of the garden. Is something being planted?

    Mr Al Hilli’s name and reputation is being well and truly blackened.

  • anders7777

    Excellent points OSI

    Further discussion:
    – Two bullets in each head indicates professional killing.

    Yes

    – Mass bloodshed generally avoided unless perpetrators intending to send clear message to others.

    A message sent or a Tavistock operation all along – look at the circus dominate world news every day. Now the bomb squad, so what are they planting? A frameup job is going down, yet SAH worked for the Brits, how can this be? Is evidence going to be “found” in the house implicating Iran??? My bet…

    – Professional killing involves extended surveillance and intelligence collection. Fact that child hidden in the car indicates that: 1) gunmen knew there was another child in the car but didn’t kill her or 2) gunmen were oblivious to this fact. If 2), then this indicates sloppy surveillance and probably not state-sponsored or botched job.

    1. They would have known about the two children, this was a very carefully planned hit.

    2.a. They knew about both. French authorities confirmed the 7 year old was outside the car when the shooting started, probably a stray bullet, they didn’t WANT to kill both children, or they easily could have shot Zaineb x 2, that seems to be the fav meeja word these days, duble sodding tap!

    2.b. NOT sloppy, consider THAT’S WHAT THEY WANT YOU TO THHINK…

    A convenient partial get out clause for a certain State.

    – Fact that child shot in right shoulder (away from vital organs) and pistol-whipped indicates to me that she was deliberately not killed.

    Yes.

    If an Iranian Savak type MKO hit team was doing it, IMHO they would have killed the kids too. I don’t believe they mess around. American commentator Richard Silverstein believes that the primary source of income for the terrorist Mojahedin-e Khalq Organization (MKO) comes from the assassinations the group conducts within the Iranian soil at the behest of the Mossad.

    If the gunmen wanted her dead they would have done so. Was she shot in the crossfire?

    I say yes, car was parked there for some time, a toilet break?

    – Did gunmen intend to cause memory loss by striking her head violently? Did they know that the 4-year old wouldn’t be treated as a reliable witness?

    Yes to both. They knew if MOSSAD, that sanitisers from Tavistock would do the Biz.

    – Did the gunmen know that the second cyclist would only be minutes away, why not kill him too and buy more time to escape smoothly?

    As N_ said, perhaps they were under express orders NOT to.

    Unless this is a TOTAL Tavistock/Mossad psyop from the git go, on the face of it it looks like the Brits were caught by surprise, hence the 20-man scramble from Vauxhall etc.

    But again, that could be a diversion, if the whole charade is to implicate Iran in a lead up to war.

    These f**kers are Machiavellian.

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