My post on the shootings in France has brought tens of thousands of people to this site – but not to read my dull contribution. People are coming to read the comments from other readers.
Today’s development of the bomb squad descending on the al-Hilli house does not in itself worry me enormously. You may recall the massive terror scare that was ramped up when some Muslim students in Manchester were found to own a bag of sugar.
In fact we have the opposite phenomenon today, with the spook-fed “security correspondents” on TV lining up to tell us it is probably just everyday household stuff. This deviation from the standard Islamophobic “Muslims = bombs” narrative is so startling it makes me wonder why the “move along, nothing to see here” line is being taken so quickly.
My own security services sources insist that al-Hilli was not a person of current interest to the UK intelligence agencies and was not involved in anything clandestine. I have no reason to disbelieve them. On the other hand, the limited and confusing information in the media is almost entirely from official sources. I find it very strange indeed how little attention has been paid to the murdered French cyclist, and how easily it is presumed he was just a passerby. Surely it is as likely he was the intended victim and the al-Hillis the accidental witnesses?
Please do read the comments on my first entry on the subject to see the debate unfettered by the censorship in the mainstream media. This is perhaps my favourite comment:
From Janesmith101
All comments regarding Sylvain, Al-Hilli and a possible nuclear link are being removed from sites I’ve posted on in The Guardian, Independent and Huffpo UK.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/09/alps-killer-motive-baffles-police
Here was my comment, I added as a point of fact it was completely speculative and an unproven theory in a later comment, also removed.
Sylvain Mollier, the ‘passing’ cyclist, was in fact a nuclear metallurgist who worked for a french nuclear company called Cezus (a subsidiary of Areva). Cezus fabricates and processes zirconium into metal and nuclear grade zircoaloy for nuclear fuel assemblies – it also has other applications in aerospace such as components and ceramics for missiles and satellites. Mr Al-Hilli was also a skilled aerospace engineer, on what looks to be his first camping holiday.
What is the probability that two highly skilled engineers managed be at the same remote place, at the same time, yet still managed to end up dead as a result of what looks to be a military style assasination?
As someone else pointed out in The Independent comments, the deceased were found by a ‘retired’ RAF officer who, we assume, will recieve perpetual anonymity as a witness. If the police are looking for a motive, try an intercepted rendevous by a security service fixated on denying a hostile power illicit nuclear technology.
http://wrmea.org/component/content/article/162-1995-june/7823-israel-bombs-iraqs-osirak-nuclear-research-facility.html
The Huffington Post UK reports that this wasn’t the family’s first trip to the camp site. An earlier report had asked other camp site visitors whether they had seen the family before and they had replied they hadn’t. If this isn’t wasn’t the first visit by Al-Hilli, it might slightly increase the odds that he knew or had met Mollier before, this being the last in a series of rendevous of a transactional nature. Mollier lived and worked locally.
Again, I’m not sure of the truth of these reports, there is some very sloppy journalism, as there is always seems to be. I’ve read for example Mollier’s company Cevus descirbed as a steel firm something which it is patently not, but perhaps it may have been a detail lost in translation.
An interesting comment summing up some of the strange coincidences, at least, surrounding these murders. My other favourite comment calls me a “macchiavellian shill”.
I have only one thought of my own I want to add at the minute. Al-Hilli was a Shia muslim and had been on pilgrimage to Qoms in Iran. What if it is indeed true that he was in possession of no especial nuclear or defence secrets to pass on to the Iranians, but the Israelis thought that he was? The Israeli programme of assassination of scientists involved in Iran’s nuclear programme is a definite fact. It makes as much sense as anything else at the moment, as a possibility.
I am not saying that is what happened. But the directions in which the mainstream media is being so strenuously pointed by official sources, like the massacre of an entire family over an inheritance, are certainly no more inherently probable. Certainly as we are now told all the shots were from one gun, for the assassin to get each victim in the head with none of them being able to escape, indicates real proficiency with the weapon and a very high level of training.
Speculative scenario but:
The “ex-RAF” guy was perhaps a member of a surveillance team (UK?). (It is being widely publicised that Al-Hilli was under surveillance during he 2nd Gulf War. Why? Perhaps the removal of surveillance equipment from the house will be obvious.). It appears likely the Prosecutor was told by the higher ups that ex-RAF is untouchable.
Al-Hilli was apparently in fear of his life and was perhaps waiting for an extraction team (Iran?) to take him and his close family to a place of safety – by helicopter?
Then we have the assassination team (Israel?) who move in decisively before the extraction can be affected.
Why this new witness now? And why all the hush-hush surrounding names?
This case stinks. I would even have been inclined to be less suspicious if the authorities weren’t acting so cloak-and-dagger about it.
Twenty years ago I was at University and we had no Internet. In those days things could be (and were) hushed up. I am encouraged that today we can all work together remotely and make sure that things like this aren’t swept under the carpet by those that wish it so. Fine work and respects to Craig for allowing us to post.
Just found this site having had my reasonable comments on the murders concerning possible secret service involvement removed from newspaper sites yesterday. One point I was making is how convenient it is that the only living witness on the scene before emergency services happened to be a British ex-RAF officer who was being kept anonymous and protected. Surely someone else would have been passing by in the period between the murders and the emergency services arriving !
And now, magically, this Phillippe D (incidentally I wonder if Phillippe D is the French equivalent of John S) appears telling a somewhat different story to that the prosecutor has related from the ex-RAF hero. Here is how the Mail reported our anonymous hero:
Intelligence officers from the British Embassy in Paris are said to have been at the scene of the murder hours after it happened. They were tipped off by contacts in the French Interior Ministry as soon as the identity of the car’s owner was confirmed. According to the French TV station Demain, locals described embassy staff as being ‘military types’ and numbering around 20.
The RAF veteran who discovered the scene was following a popular cycling route around Lake Annecy and the surrounding countryside when he noticed the British-registered BMW estate in the forest car park and went to investigate. The cyclist, who has a holiday home in the area, discovered the engine was running before he spotted a girl near the front of the vehicle fall to the ground. He immediately put her in the recovery position and called the emergency services from his mobile phone at 3.48pm on Wednesday.
But he grasped the full extent of the horror only after he smashed the driver’s side window to reach in and turn off the engine. This was when he saw the bodies – the man at the steering wheel and two women in the back – two shot in the face. Then he saw a cyclist slumped on the ground near his bike, also shot dead. This same man had overtaken him only moments earlier on his bike ride.
Lt Col Benoit Vinnemann of the Chambery gendarmes, said: ‘The main witness, a cyclist who discovered the grisly scene, said he was overtaken by another cyclist on the climb that leads to the parking lot where the shooting took place. ‘Arriving there, he found the cyclist on the ground with gunshot wounds near a car. In the vehicle, a man and two women, has also been shot. ‘On the other side of the car, a child of 6-8 years old was alive. He placed her in the recovery position until help arrived. She had been very badly beaten.’
Lt-Col Vinnemann said that the Briton had seen ‘various cars leaving the scene including a 4×4’.
It has also emerged that he told police that – before arriving at the murder scene – he saw a green 4×4 and a motorbike speeding towards it. A detective said: ‘He has a keen sense of observation. This could help us greatly,’ the source told French channel M6. It is the first time that the possibility of the assassins using a motorbike has been raised.
From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199670/Saad-Al-Hilli-shooting-French-Alps-Was-hitman-Each-British-victims-shot-TWICE-cyclist-witness-FIVE-times.html#ixzz26AlDb19U
The fact that about 20 British intelligence officers were reported to have been on the scene within hours tells its own story.
I do not take the sort of weapon used as eliminating anyone. A SS hit would not use a sort of weapon which could easily be pinned on SS. Rather a widely available which could have been used by anyone – as seems to be the case.
I also do not think the fact that the children, thankfully, survived is an indication that it was not a ruthless SS hit. SS only have to buy themselves enough time to disappear per their exit plan so a child too young to witness and another hit hard enough that she would not say anything for days even if she did recollect anything did not present risks.
Re-Cognito at 3:40pm on 11th Sept 2012: “Spoke-theory”. I like the typo. Indeed, is it a spook theory or a (be)spoke theory? Bicycles everywhere, yet no parasols. I was half-expecting Patrick McGoohan.
Phillipe D – might as well give his whole, or correct, name, all this code-naming, it’s ridiculous. And the ex-RAF man ought to be named – he’ll have to be if ever there is a trial or the French equivalent of an inquest. Unless, of course, he is more than he seems. In which case, he and Phillippe D had better watch out for satsumas.
HGM, many thanks. Very sorry if what I wrote about Mrs Hurd seemed insensitive in the context of someone who knows/knew them, it wasn’t meant to be. There have been so many subterfuges, one becomes overly suspicious. Thanks again for your input – “lurker” or no!
Or perhaps, “ex-RAF” meant he once was amember of the Baader Meinhof Gang?
Just a jest.
@Vague Hague – I hear you on the change in bias, and I’m perfectly willing to believe it. That would be perfectly in tune with criticisms in the last ten years that the BBC has moved to the right in its news coverage.
I’d counter your point broadly with this: if the Western media were all of a similar voice on Israel, and had been calling for social justice and peace equitably, then the pressure on Israel to retreat to one of its old borders would have been too powerful to resist. I don’t know of a study that looks at bias on this issue around that time, but I’d still wager the coverage was still in favour of Israel, even if the BBC/Guardian etc were reasonably progressive.
That the BBC is falling into line now I think demonstrates the power of its smaller number of larger competitors – who have shifted to the right in line with the political orthodoxy. In other words, more flak of an increasingly neocon flavour. The Tea Party, and the likes of Romney and Palin would have been regarded as nutty irrelevances twenty years ago, and hence the shift in the pro-corporate and anti-statist views is enormous. Journalists are jumping the gap subconsciously – in my view – in accordance with the model.
I am not in favour of writing off the model because of its age – I think it still holds up to criticism. But I am not sure what the alternative is that you would propose. Is it that there is a layer of journalists “in the know”, blackmailed or paid handsomely to deceive us? I don’t want to unfairly caricature your perspective, but it is the only other proposal that I am aware of, and I don’t find it realistic. Ideally, do you have some refs for it, so I might read up? (always happy to consider alternatives)!
Minor point…
The JANET Internet JIPS (initially “Shoestring project”) started in 1991. Most major universities had Internet access 20 years ago. The earlier X25 based SERCNET/JANET had already been running for many years.
Excuse me my not so very fluently english.
Still think its obvious to question the shift in the rang of keywitnesses as a an intended and pure purpose from Millaud and his ongoing investigations. Why is he doing that?
Google Translate of Lessorsavoyard (ref above):
Our colleagues in the “Parisien in France today” engaged exclusively in their edition today, the story of a key witness in the investigation.
It is a Savoyard, while accompanied by two friends, who had crossed the English rider (ex-RAF), while the latter had discovered the crime scene. This Savoyard, seasoned hiker would be back on the scene of the quadruple murder to realize that there was nothing more to do, thinking that the eldest daughter died also. It was he, and not the French cyclist, who gave the first call to prevent relief. Any truth to this story? According to a source close to the investigation, these new witnesses were credible and their existence has not been revealed by investigators to protect. However, no confirmation has been given by the prosecutor, who remained unreachable this morning.
Seems like the local paper also doesn’t quite believe the Philippe D story…Source: Parisien-Aujourd’hui en France
http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-divers/les-confidences-d-un-temoin-du-drame-de-chevaline-11-09-2012-2159640.php
Bomb squad visit house in Claygate to remove surveillance equipment? (Been mentioned several times above).
No way. I absolutely don’t buy the inference that the bomb squad were there to remove the surveillance equipment. Why call in the Bomb Squad for that? It is so high profile it attracts a lot of attention. The regular police in attendance could easily extract any surveillance equipment without any one noticing it.
Much more likely scenario was that there was some fertiliser (for the lawn) stored in the shed near a few jerry cans of diesel (for the BMW) or petrol (for the motorbike, now sold, or lawnmower). And H&S said to call Bomb Squad for testing or moving.
Montyw,
Regular police extract secret bugging equipment (if indeed there was any)? I think not.
Jon
The PM proposes that the Bowens, Guerins, Snows and Paxmans think we’re basically goodies doing good work, that sometimes we make mistakes but we’re doing our best in difficult circumstances and we mean well.
The problem is that they don’t think that anymore. No one but an idiot thinks that now.
Even the people who pretend to think that, don’t think it. They think it’s a dog eat dog world and they’ve got to lie and cheat to survive.
The world has changed. The issues have changed. The UK and the West are America’s poodle not through choice but through fear of a rising East and South and the economic and political damage these threats will bring. They’re onside for survival. They no longer have the luxury of paternalism.
The PM no longer applies.
Google Translate is shite …
@Suhayl Saadi: We have a different press culture on the continent, with privacy stronger and freedom of the press weaker. It is normal not to provide identifying information on a witness unless the witness agrees.
Your ex-RAF idea is superbly funny. It would make the current case even closer to the affaire Dominici.
Vague Hague: “I think you underestimate the extent to which coverage of Israel has changed from the pre 1987 period to what it is today.”
I think so too Vague Hague. It has got much worse in my lifetime.
This video shows the state of the media in the US compared favourably with BBC World News.
What shocked me was how much BBC World News compared favourably with the BBC domestic service. BBC World service is also slightly better than pure propaganda. It’s not just Israel – it’s the whole pro-war militaristic stance of the state.
BBC News at 6 is now a light entertainment program. During the Olympics there was no other news. Nothing we needed to know.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/how-the-media-lies-full-version/
@Vague Hague:
Indeed, and doesn’t the existence of continuing nationalist propaganda, such as The Queen’s Jubilee, stoke such fires?
I am still however uncertain what basic model you would propose to describe media behaviour. I am genuinely interested to be exposed to another approach, if you are aware of one.
I’ve been trying to check out @leilalamnaouer’s Twitter account, pre 8 September when she live tweeted a Maillaud press conference. But it won’t load anything earlier, and Twitter is telling me, “Loading seems to be taking a while. Twitter may be over capacity or experiencing a momentary hiccup.” (which is not unusual.)
https://twitter.com/@leilalamnaouer
Vague Hague: “The Bowens, Guerins, Snows and even Paxmans all know this.”
Paxman’s brother Giles is a diplomat. He was British Ambassador to Spain & Mexico I believe. Don’t know where he is now.
I’m guessing Jeremy knows whatever his brother knows?
How well are British Ambassadors briefed??
Thanks for that Zoologist
Jon
Most everyone is now familiar with the Bread and Circuses nonsense. What’s changed is that now more and more people in authority would argue that there’s no alternative.
They know things are bad. They’re not deceived. They just don’t see any alternative at the moment.
You see, the post WWII period was one of pursuing alternatives to dog eat dog. Even though dog eat dog was the dominant MO, in media and politics alternatives were readily explored and in many ways a lot was achieved for the mass of ordinary people in the US, UK and Europe. We even thought to bring that better life to those in the Third world at the time.
All the while though even whilst dog eat dog was dominant in the West’s Foreign Affairs it always seemed as if criticism was succeeding in making things better. That’s kind of the delusion to which PM refers.
In the late 1980s early 1980s, especially after the fall of USSR the Western dog eat doggers finally took full control. Everything since has been a steady dismantling of the post war consensus and its benefits, our freedoms and civil liberties etc.
The powerful don’t need subtleties in media or anywhere else now. They won and they’re merely consolidating their power.
Media power is now much too blatant for intelligent people. You don’t need the PM. It only works with ignorant or ill-informed people these days.
“Desmazes” is not a common name, so there is some chance of finding out whether the photo journalist Philippe Desmazes, like “Philippe D.”, is from Savoy.
The French telephone directory provides only 113 people of this surname altogether in France. Two of these live “near” Annecy. From the point of view of Chevaline these people are actually not near Annecy but in the other direction, each 10 km from Ugine (the location of Sylvain Mollier’s employer Cezus), but in opposite directions.
Obviously this does not prove anything at all, but it looks promising.
Hang on. If Philippe D says they met ex-RAF only a few metres away from the scene, surely ex-RAF guy heard their car approaching while he was still at scene?
Do we really have 20 spooks in Paris?
How did they get to Chevaline in a few hours? It’s 560km by road. By air to the nearest airport (Chambéry) it’s 1 1/2 hours by plane, longer in a choppper, with car journeys at either end.
More likely they were already in the region.
Locals mention English-speaking military types arriving within a few hours. Doesn’t necessarily mean they were all British, unless the locals are good with accents.
@Anon: I am pretty sure that “a few metres” is an understatement. I would guess something like 300 metres or so. As it is a forest road, I don’t think he must necessarily have heard the car.
HA,
Even at 300m in that valley you should be able to hear the car I would think.
French text:
Cet homme, paniqué, était en train de redescendre la route, se souvient Philippe, encore ému. Il m’a expliqué difficilement dans un mauvais français qu’il y avait eu un drame un peu plus haut. Il cherchait à prévenir les secours. Je n’ai pas compris s’il n’avait pas de téléphone portable ou s’il ne parvenait pas à capter le réseau à cet endroit. » Ce Savoyard, randonneur chevronné, suit alors le cycliste britannique sur quelques mètres pour arriver sur le parking, théâtre du quadruple assassinat.
Some minutes before, first the cyclist, then the al-Hillis met their fates. A gentleman known locally for having once been a member of the RAF was slowly pedalling up the mountain, below the level of the car park. He had just been overtaken by a younger man, also on a cycle, who had nodded a passing greeting as he accelerated away. The older man had watched as the younger yo-yoed away from him ever upward. Finally, he lost sight of him around a bend.
He then spied, coming toward him at speed, travelling down the mountain, three vehicles. He could feel the pressure wave as each. A car, a motorbike and, lastly a larger 4×4 vehicle, passed him in turn.
Several minutes later, he saw the younger cyclist again. laying prone and still beside his bicycle.
The MO was that of pro’s, the kind of pro’s that seldom make mistakes in what they do. This indicates that there was little or no chance involved in how the assassination played out. If you have the ability to assassinate the way this was done, you also have other ways and options to take the life of your targeted victim.
To me the killings in France was a statement, by who and to whom is of course not known at the moment. Given the extraordinary cruelty involved I’d say the MO points us in a specific direction.
I’m curious to hear more about the chopper that left, was it Switzerland?, shortly after the killings took place.
And Harry, are you the Harry from Spooks?
24 hours later. A group of looking men of Middle Eastern appearance boarded a Mediterranean ferry. Destined initially for North Africa………
Jon
Just for clarity, I’m sure you understand that I’m not saying you’re ignorant or ill-informed for holding to the PM.
I’m speaking there specifically about journalists who act in the manner the PM describes. I don’t think there’s too many of them left though. I can imagine there are many non journalists to whom it applies though.
I think ultimately the PM describes well the siutation up to the late 1980s, perhaps earlier in the US.
I’m not sure we need much of a model today. People are mostly doing as they’re told. They understand it’s a job and they’re trained to argue pro or con as the situation demands. To that extent they’re comparable today to PR people or barristers, for example.
Harry Webb
Great story. The only flaw in it, and it’s a dirty great big flaw I’m afraid, is that there’s no way the Brits and French would go to such lengths to cover up an Iraqi assassination for such banal ends.