I Vote For Shooting Bankers

by craig on October 11, 2012 7:10 am in Uncategorized

Not content with focusing public ire on those social spongers who have the temerity to be unemployed or disabled, government has scored a great populist coup, and caused great rejoicing in the land of the tabloids, by decreeing that it is quite acceptable to kill burglars with machine guns, rocket propelled grenade launchers, tactical nuclear weapons or any of the other items the British householder keeps by them for such an emergency.

But if a burglar were to strip my home of its entire contents, it would not reach a tenth in value of the money that is going to be taken from me in taxation by government for the rest of my life to fund the bank bailouts in which my cash was given to reckless and incompetent bankers to cover their gambling losses.

Not only have they taken all my money, the majority of the money I shall be paying to cover it for the rest of my life, will consist of interest to the bankers because the government borrowed at interest from the bankers the money it then gave gratis to the bankers to bail them out.

And, as doubtless you will have noticed, nothing changed. No reduction in massive salaries and bonuses, no split of casino from high street banking, no transaction tax to deter multiple speculative trades. A million more unemployed, but none of them investment bankers – they have however sacked over a hundred thousand mostly female staff from their high street branches, which were the only sensible and profitable bit of the operation. No bankers in jail, not even for LIBOR fraud. Quantitive Easing, or printed money, is given not for infrastructure projects to produce growth, but given to banks to improve their liquidity. They do not lend it on to companies but pay it to themselves, as bonuses.

Forget burglars. Shoot a banker.

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  1. Jim McDonald

    11 Oct, 2012 - 7:21 am

    Right On, Craig, never mind….. Come the revolution :-)

  2. Am currently in Madrid – I think I am catching the mood!

  3. You will find a similar mood in Rickmansworth

  4. Great post Craig, except for capitulating to the new spelling of gaol. Is there any chance of government demanding seats on the boards of banks that receive bailouts?

  5. Personally, I don’t think they are “worth the bullet.” Just reuse a greasy rope over and over. Oh, and create jobs by making them pay (plus transaction fees) to have their graves dug before they are dispatched.

  6. This never took off. I don’t think people trust Facebook groups.


  7. “Hush, my dear,” he said. “don`t speak so load, or you will be over-heard- and I should be ruined. I`m supposed to be a Great Wizard.”
    “and aren`t you?” she asked.
    Not a bit of it, my dear; I`m just a conman.”
    “You`re more than that,” said the Scarecrow, in a grieved tone;”you`re a humbug.”
    “Exactly so!” declared the little man, rubbing his hands together as if it pleased him. “I am a humbug.”

    The Wonderful Wizard of Oz
    “THe Magic Art of The Great Humbug”

  8. No more to be said, really. It’s just down to quality vs quantity…Lee-Enfield vs Kalashnikov. The latter is preferable if you find a lot of bankers in one place, the former if it’s personal.

  9. http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=212.0;wap2

    What a menace they are Bankers and Merchants.

    Fair play though Its a “survival of the fittest, not the honest.”

    To be fair the system is all most a level playing field. I say “almost.”

  10. I like the idea. The poor Irish and Spanish must be feeling the same. I wish I could find that figure quoted – that the bailout of the Irish banks will cost each household something like 2000 Euros per year over the next 10 years to pay off. That’s a hell of a burden on people for the Government to impose. The bankers of course walk out of it with their millions of dollars in severance and pensions, bonuses and guarantee getting another job with even more money!

  11. If these data are to be trusted, (source: http://www.greystonesguide.ie/irelands-comparative-per-capita-bailout-costs/)

    New Research shows Irish citizens are paying more than other EU citizens for bank bailout.
    · Bank bailout has cost every Irish person €13,956
    · Ten times more than every Spaniard

    Tuesday, September 4, 2012 – New Research from Stephen Donnelly, TD shows how Ireland fares compared to other EU countries that are also bailing out their banks.

    “Since the beginning of the European economic crisis, Ireland has poured €64bn into a failed banking system. That’s €13,956 for every man, woman and child. This per capita figure is more than other EU countries struggling with similar financial conditions.

    “My research shows that Ireland has paid three and a half times more than each person in Iceland, four times more than each Greek, six times more than each Cypriot, 23 times more than every Portuguese, 10 times more than every Spaniard and almost 200 times more than each Italian. This burden is unbearable.”

  12. Commesick Commesark

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:38 am

    Those who guard and sit at the gates of the God of capitalism – CAPITAL , may be likened to small Gods. The only remedy for cutting them down to size is the magic of the marketplace. With fibre optic instantaneous communications between millions of players in the financial markets and computerised accounting, the need for Banks to achieve scale economies does not arise. The big banks may be broken up, with capital aggregating lenders in turn serving as their super bankers. Government simply cannot attract the kind of talented gamekeepers required to oversee the Enron kind of MBA crooks, only the marketplace and shareholders will reign in the bankster wannabees.

  13. Brian Spencer

    11 Oct, 2012 - 8:44 am

    @ John Goss 11 Oct, 2012 8:00 am

    John, the trouble I find with Facebook is that it tries to be all things to all people! It’s fine at a purely social level but not so good IMO for dealing with serious matters. That’s my perception anyway – suffice to say I’ve never really felt in my comfort zone when using it.

  14. Agree Brian. Not on it. Too invasive of one’s privacy.

    This is what they are up to with their British operation. Note the creep Zuckerberg’s comments at the bottom. Talk about helping people. He helped himself and went off with the money before the share price fell away.

    “Facebook has been accused of taking the British taxpayer for a ride after experts suggested the company had depressed sales figures and that the website’s average UK employee earned more last year than the whole social media network paid the exchequer.

    The British arm paid its 90 UK-based staff an average of £275,000 each in 2011 while contributing just £195,890 to the Treasury’s coffers, according to the firm’s latest accounts filed at Companies House.

    The website also reported UK revenues of £20.4m, a fraction of the £175m that media analysts estimate the firm made in the UK in 2011.

    Most of the sales are believed to have been booked in the firm’s international headquarters in Dublin, where they will attract lower corporation taxes.”


    Note the salaries. That’s a total bill of £24.75m for the blessed 90.

  15. SOME governments are capable of holding the guilty to account –


    And it works, apparently.

  16. If not a fraud, a scam. The vultures piled in expecting a bonanza.

    The anger surrounding the sharp decline in the value of Facebook shares deepened yesterday when investors who have lost millions discovered that its founder apparently saved more than £110m by selling early.

    Mark Zuckerberg, the social network’s founder, sold shares in the company worth £720m on Friday, the day it floated on New York’s Nasdaq stock market. But the price plummeted soon afterwards, from the $38 a share (£23.95) at which Mr Zuckerberg sold his stock. The price difference meant Mr Zuckerberg saved £111m by getting out early.


    The shares are currently just over $20. Zuckerberg is thinking of going into the search engine business.

  17. Yeah, go over to the daily slog for another issue surfacing from RBS, and how he puts it ‘the raping of SME’s’

    I kinda like the feeling of getting this debt killed under ‘ODIOUS debt’. America did it in Iraq, and didn’t Chavez do it as well.

  18. The government’s only serious economic policies (out of I think, habit and quid pro quo from contributions) are directed at keeping the banks afloat; the banks don’t give a damn about anything but their survival and holding onto their right to commit the next set of crimes.

    This approach has been shown (Japan) to lead to economic stagnation with banks clinging on to ‘solvency’, so called zombie banks.

    Iceland has the right approach, if necessary let banks go to the wall and actually indict some bank CEOs; the policy is already paying dividends and, not un-importantly, feels so much better.

  19. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:27 am

    I will not be content until every lamp-post along Pall Mall has a dead politician, banker, journalist, and judge hanging by their feet. The “Royal” family can fuck off as well, bunch of freaks and perverts.

    I propose Dennis Skinner to be PM, with George Galloway as Foreign Secretary. The Chancellor will be picked by national lottery to ensure that at least 50% of decisions are correct (unlike the 0% we have had for the last 20 years.)

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  20. The problem with bankers, politicians, arms manufacturers etc is that they are all singing from the same hymnsheet.
    Their song is roughly, “You scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours, and to hell with any stupid peasant who wants honesty and decency to count for anything.”
    The bankers back scratching consists of robbing us all blind. The politicians then change the laws so the bankers are protected. And the arms manufacturers? Afghanistan, Iraq…

  21. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:33 am

    “This never took off. I don’t think people trust Facebook groups.”

    How can people trust an outfit that was created with CIA funds, has robbed investors and pension funds of billions in a fraudulent IPO and managed to pay less that half a million tax on UK profits of £170 million?

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  22. Good argument, and although it’s fun to engage in a bit of hyperbole, I wouldn’t condone killing anyone, banker, burglar or otherwise. There is far too great a tendency to trivialise and normalise killing in our society.
    Why not take the lead from Iceland, and bring criminal trials against them, then seize their assets and lock them up? Much more civilized.

  23. Facebook is a good example of what’s wrong. It consists – entirely – of binary digits. It has no intrinsic value whatever – what is being sold is shares in the intangible expectation of its making money from (a) buying other shares and (b)advertising revenue. Which is derived from selling the intangible expectation of making money to the advertisers. Who in turn are selling the intangible expectation to some manufacturers, who pass the costs on to the consumer, who has actually obtained nothing extra for the extra cost, or to yet more salesmen of intangible expectations like banks and insurance agents…
    There’s nothing there. It’s a vacuum. The concept of value has evaporated.

  24. Sam. Quite agree. Then shoot them?

  25. “…they have however sacked over a hundred thousand mostly female staff from their high street branches.”

    An indication that they employed mostly women in the first place:


  26. Craig: We might spare a few to put in cages and hurl filth at. Be reasonable.

  27. Keiser this week on banks –


    Kicks off with the Guardian being all things to all readers, and you may recognise the taxi driver….

  28. Gideon should be sent on an apprenticeship to Iceland, with his preferred set of whips, enough cocaine to keep his mind numbed from the otherwise normal thinking that might break out and a bible, just in case.

    I like the idea of hanging them upside down from lamp posts, not withstanding that they need strengthening due to bankers considerable weight, it would give every child and dog in town the opportunity to show what they think of him and it would stop cars damaging lamp posts.

  29. KingofWelshNoir

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:55 am

    ‘Great post Craig, except for capitulating to the new spelling of gaol’

    Gaol or Jail?

    Both are correct:

    The word came into English in two forms, jaiole from Old French and gayole from Anglo-Norman French gaole (surviving in the spelling gaol), originally pronounced with a hard g, as in goat


    The important thing is to put the bankers in one.

    Or bring back another great Old Englishe institution: the stocks.

  30. Craig – shooting is definitely tempting, but for anyone that isn’t already aware of it, I also strongly recommend checking out http://www.positivemoney.org.uk for an easy-to-grasp analysis of the roots of the banking problem, and what to do about it.

  31. Ginger Nuts (was: Apple Pies)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 9:58 am

    “I wouldn’t condone killing anyone, banker, burglar or otherwise.”

    Yeah, not now perhaps but that can soon change.

    [Mod/Jon: posted as Apple Pies, but has posted in the past under Ginger Nuts, so fixing]

  32. The LIBOR fraud, truly spectacular in scale, was perfectly legal. Yet another example of a crime committed by the well connected being considered not a crime at all. I’m afraid we might have to shoot the law makers too.

  33. And who was on watch to “protect” the nation from the spivs and charlatans who ruined the UK economy and placed us all into abject debt? None other than Howard Davies:


    Davies was head of the FSA at exactly the time when the city was first let loose on a rampage of ponzi schemes, dodgy financial instruments, liar loans, toxic credit and awarding themselves huge salaries. Having sat on his hands until 2003 he ensured the FSA was fully primed in its utter failure to curtail city excess, and went on to head that supplier of academics in support of the bankers’ “step on everyone” charter, The LSE, where he distinguished himself by accepting donations from Libya via Gaddafi’s son after which he quietly resigned.

    His whole life has been spent wandering around the inner circle of corporate clubs whose members do the rounds of banking, then “regulation”, then banking again, then educational institutions, then a spot of banking yet again. At each stop Davies either achieved nothing or worse, screwed things up. This perpetual round robin of executive posts is something Davies has particularly excelled at. At no time in his entire career has Davies ever produced anything that any intelligent person could consider useful or of value.

    Once a member of the corporate rent-a-spiv society, it doesn’t matter whether you are a complete failure, you are in the charmed circle and your entire career is a relentless acquisition of blue chip posts, none of which are of the slightest import or use.

    In an almost kafkaesque twist, Howard Davies actually went on a lecture tour lately (including South Africa) advising institutions about financial regulation!

    Davies is just one example within the excrable cabal of failed academics and city slickers, retired judges, Lords, retired Civil Servants, advisers and a host of other quite useless hangers-on, few of whom have done an honest day’s work in their lives, who spend the autumn of their existence moving from one pointless, but highly rewarded, post to another. Here is a summary of his main “achievements”:

    Deputy Governor Bank of England 1995-1997
    Chairman Financial Services Authority 1997-2003 (or is that Freedom for Spivs Authority?)
    Director LSE 2003-2011 (resigned for accepting case from Gaddafi)
    Adviser to chancellor exchequer (Lawson)
    On the board of Paternoster consultants (Goldman Sachs owned)
    Director Morgan Stanley

    The Morgan Stanley link is of particular interest. This vast corporation is one of the most censured, most prosecuted corporations in existence in the US, having had fines in excess of 100 million dollars levied upon it while Davies was a director, for misrepresenting securities, excessive bond fees and commissions, negligence in servicing domestic mortgages, failure to disclose research in breach of disclosure regulations, multiple instances of insider trading, fictitious sales of Eurodollar and treasury futures and so on The list is long.

    And this outcome from supposed ex-financial regulator.

    There are many many more examples of “doing the rounds” of institutions by a circus of incompetent, unaccountable, highly paid and ghastly individuals. Davies is just one of them. Anymore?

  34. I have no doubt that the continued fraud by the financial institutions backed by those in Parliament is tantamount to Treason.

  35. This trouble with fat cats who do too well is endemic in our chosen (or evolved) system of free enterprise capitalism. While it is very satisfying to write of hanging people, putting them up against a wall, purging society of parasites, etc. etc., it isn’t constructive. If you did that, after the party things would in fact go right downhill as we actually need some really selfish, energetic, ruthless people to drive the economy forward. Let’s face it, most of us are far too reasonable and sane to drive progress. We rely on those who are, for whatever reason, mentally warped enough to be under a compulsion to outdo others.
    Abraham Lincoln, as so often, summed things up neatly when he said that “Statesmanship is the art of exploiting individual meannesses for the general good”. In the mental picture this conjures up, bankers and captains of industry are like so many donkeys harnessed to a great wheel that moves the economy, always straining forward to reach the carrots that are forever just out of reach. Lincoln knew perfectly well that human nature is deeply flawed, and that we all have character weaknesses that make us selfish and inconsiderate. Nothing abashed, he set about finding how to align those selfish motives into a grand Newtonian vector sum whose resultant pointed upwards – for us all.
    Unfortunately, statesmen in the Lincolnian sense are few and far between. People like Blair, Brown, Cameron, and Clegg cannot tweak the laws in such a way as to force bankers, willy-nilly, to contribute to the common good. Contrariwise, the bankers have infiltrated the corridors of power and are progressively reshaping the law to suit their own convenience. There they recline, amid a heap of luscious juicy carrots, gorging themselves while the wheels of the economy lie idle.
    If only there were a way to divorce wealth from power. In the free, open, democratic, globalized world we have created, anyone with enough money can exert power. That power gives access to more wealth, which accretes more power… in a positive feedback loop.

  36. Not to worry. Price Waterhouse Cooper will detect any suspicious dealings and take effective action…


    The Big Four audit firms—Deloitte & Touche, Ernst & Young, KPMG and
    PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC)—audit all but one of the FTSE 100 companies, and
    represent 99% of audit fees in the FTSE 350.

    (Competition and choice in the UK audit market
    Prepared for Department of Trade and Industry and Financial Reporting Council, April 2006)


  37. No, don’t shoot them or gaol them. Make them pay it back as community service on minimum wage. They’d be done in a few centuries.

    Alternatively, the entire City of London should be entombed in a concrete sarcophagus, like Chernobyl.

  38. I’m glad you’ve brought up this topic, Craig, and I predict a very lively reaction from the forum. I would only quibble with this bit:

    “….. to fund the bank bailouts in which my cash was given to reckless and incompetent bankers to cover their gambling losses.”

    I would say there was nothing reckless or incompetent about their actions, they knew exactly what they were doing, i.e. deliberately manufacturing financial crises which result in them ….
    (a) being given huge sums of money
    (b) configure the global economy to suit their long term purposes.
    (c) further their long term policy of sickening people with the actions of irresponsible national banks so that we demand a “supervised” global bank.
    These bankers don’t gamble.

  39. @Tom Welsh: “While it is very satisfying to write of hanging people, putting them up against a wall, purging society of parasites, etc. etc., it isn’t constructive. If you did that, after the party things would in fact go right downhill as we actually need some really selfish, energetic, ruthless people to drive the economy forward.”

    This is exactly the kind of twisted understanding that allows those very bankers and corporate spivs to ruin economies. Far from constructively building economies or trade that is to the benefit of the electorate, the vast majority of those “ruthless” people you speak of do not create anything, do not invent anything and do not add to a nation’s growth or GDP. In the main, these people dominate a market, monopolise, asset-strip, inflate values artificially then sell, manipulate, con, deal in questionable instruments and dodgy non-assets, hide debts, miss-sell, defraud, cook the books, reside in tax havens, and almost everything they do is nothing whatever to the common good and everything to do with their own inflated sense of entitlement.

    That is why, when the mainstream media present programmes about the economy, real people who work for a living, real engineers, real companies who actually PRODUCE things that others find useful, are never invited on. Instead they wheel on failed bankers, failed economists, share manipulators, spivs, failed regulators, columnists, city slickers and a sundry mix of charlatans who do nothing whatever in pursuit of proper growth in the economy.

    These people you apparently think are the real drivers of economies are in fact the very people who spend their whole life doing nothing more than slicing up large cake slices for themselves, and the odd thing is that you acknowledge that in your second paragraph but imply the exact opposite in your first.

    The flaw in your argument is that being reasonable and sane cannot drive progress. The opposite is the case, and that is palpable since those ruthless people you feel are regretfully necessary HAVE just ruined the economies of half the nations of Europe!

  40. How the Financial Lobbyists Carried the Day
    The Bankers vs. The People

    Last Thursday, the Wall Street Journal ran an article titled “Burdened by Old Mortgages, Banks Are Slow to Lend Now“, in which, author Nick Timiraos said that the reason that housing has been so slow to recover is because Fannie and Freddie “have been forcing banks to take back an increasing number of loans that the banks made during the boom years.” According to Timiraos, the banks have “grown wary of making new loans” and “are ratcheting up credit and documentation standards for new mortgages.”

    From the WSJ:

    “Mortgage credit is tighter than it should be,” said Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner at a Senate hearing in July. “And the main reason for that is because banks…feel much more vulnerable now to what people call ‘put-back.’ ”

    This play-it-safe stance by banks threatens to undercut the Federal Reserve’s latest effort to push down mortgage rates by buying up mortgage-backed securities. Even if rates keep falling, many people will find it much harder to take advantage.”

    Timiraos does have a point. Certainly housing and the overall economy would be doing better if credit was expanding at a brisker pace. But does that mean the banks should ease lending standards again like they did before the meltdown? And, does that mean the banks shouldn’t be held accountable for the bad loans they made? Timiraos seems to think so. Take a look:



  41. I vote for Craig for PM

  42. Even here, there seem to be those who define ‘progress’ as ‘economic growth’.

    Anyone who believes in infinite growth on a finite planet is either an economist or insane.

  43. Did someone say “real people who work for a living, real engineers, real companies who actually PRODUCE things that others find useful,”?


    I don’t think the Government knows about them.

  44. Mary: Your quote about “housing being so slow to recover” is a common one. I realise that is not perhaps your own view. But what is meant by “recovery”? Does it mean the recovery of past inflated prices? (I suspect it does). Or does it mean an increase in house sale transactions?

    Whatever it means, the conventional wisdom on the “housing market” is nearly always predicated on house prices, and specifically HIGH prices, as the yardstick of recovery. In fact the exact oppposite is the case, since as long as any economy is fundamentally reliant on the perceived value of static assets, then investment in proper growth is stalled. In fact no amount of lending, and no amount of “affordable” housing is really going to make houses truly affordable, unless the capital cost of ALL housing declines.

    All the political parties are aligned in being utterly paranoid about upsetting EXISTING house owners, and that translates to keeping interest rates absurdly low in order for those owners to continue their illusion that their houses really are worth perhaps double what they should be.

    The only way to solve this is to do the pole opposite of what is happening now, and that is to stop house price inflation for good, by raising interest rates a modest amount in order to head off any more house price inflation and make proper investment in REAL things that are worthwhile. Instead we are hung up about supporting the unsupportable – ridiculous house values.

    The huge mistake between 1997 and 2006 was to make housing almost the SOLE means of making money for many. But an already built house cannot create wealth. It can only create ARTIFICIAL wealth for those who happened to cash in on a bubble. Everyone else PAID for that bubble by having to pay a ludicrously high proportion of disposable income in order to get a roof over their heads. Thus the housing bubble was at its core a re-distribution of wealth from the house-less to the house owners. The illusion that this was a net gain in wealth was the fundamental cause of the entire meltdown of our economy, but astoundingly that illusion still persists today.

    The only way to for housing to recover in the true sense of that word, is for house prices to plunge, and the only way to make “affordable” housing is not to build isolated so-called affordable housing (which just means poky homes on cheap estates subsidised by the tax payer), but to lower the capital cost of ALL housing and stop house price speculation for good.

    There are four distinct ways to do this:

    1. Raise interest rates to encourage prices to go down and to encourage investment in REAL industry.

    2. Penalise those who persistently make a living from speculating in property.

    3. Learn from the German housing model of the 1990s and 2000s. ie: no distinction in social status between renting and “owning” (parenthesis because very few ever “own” a house since they are renting it via a mortgage from a bank). Plentiful rented sector, fairly provided at a reasonable cost and with tenancies of at least one year (not our ridiculous six months – see Thatcher). Result: very little house price inflation.

    4. Stop the diversion of investment funds away from speculative gambling and towards proper investment in infrastructure and goods and services that actually add to GDP, not steal from it.

  45. Max Keiser on BBC Daily Politics right now!

  46. The mechanism for rationalising the housing sector (and any other loan- fuelled “asset” market) is, as George mentioned above, to prevent private enterprise from creating notional money to balance its loan books.

    Again: good site, sensible and informed thinking -http://www.positivemoney.org.uk

    As opposed to the current efforts to reinflate the old bubble so that the usual suspects can continue charging rent on rent on rent on someone else’s money which never represented real value in the first place.

  47. @Pan,

    “Anyone who believes in infinite growth on a finite planet is either an economist or insane.”

    Or both?

  48. Hello craig and your readers,

    Your article `establishment darkness` was very interesting and for me shocking, thanks to all the people who posted comments and links it was an education and a revelation.
    As for the bankers, the politicians and other people in positions of power who enable and benefit from their activities they will never see a rope, or any sort of justice. i find the great majority of people in london, to be self absorbed, self obsessed and wilfully ignorant, at every level, this seems to be the new normal. it seems as though people have regressed in every sense. so many people live by the mantra of im alright jack f**k you. when disorder breaks out it will not be directed at those responsible. neighbourhoods will turn against themselves along lines of race, wealth, religion etc.
    First of all i think people need to stand back and evaluate, truthfully and ruthlessly their own complicity in the creation of the situation we find ourselves in, no one is innocent. how many of you benefitted from the housing boom trading up property and the like, how many of you gladly embrace and indulge yourselves in consumerism, how many iphone or ipad users think of the slave worker who manufactured that device while you`re using it, how many of you wonder where it goes when you`ve finished with it ie the beautiful countryside and beaches of ghana for instance.
    ie which ones of you truthfully and in a practical sense give a sh1t when viewed through a harsh lens?
    A few years ago in another capacity i met many people who work for the press, tv, plc`s government etc and generally i was not impressed, the greed, self righteousness etc of the bankers et al is reflected by the majority of people on an individual level.
    Im sorry but publications like the guardian, the independent (from what?), programmes like newsnight etc etc are of the swamp, with very little to be offered in mitigation.
    Saying that you would kill a banker i take as largely metaphorical, and sadly glib. they are just the top of a pyramid that is underpinned by a great many others, including myself and all of you.
    When the shtf it will largely be the youth who do the hands on rioting as i did when in my 20`s over the poll tax, mob disorder will solve nothing merely strengthen the hand of tptb. its the responsibility of intelligent, reasonable and truthful people to take this society in a positive direction, and that includes each and every reader of this blog, the change starts with you.
    A previous glimmer of hope in this realm was the green party back in the late 80`s-90`s but it soon became clear that right-on-ness and liberal drivel crippled it at the start line. as in life in general many people have a secret axe to grind, are dogmatic and seek to suppress truths they dont like, or are contrary to their agenda.
    I could go on but i wont i hope you get the jist of what im saying.
    Please visit these sites amongst others to inform yourself and others with ears to listen,

    RT putins propaganda channel yes, but they dont need to make it up just shout the truth loudly and repeatedly
    Max Keiser
    Bill Bonner on dailyreckoning.com.au
    Alt. market
    The Burning Platform
    Chris Hedges column on truthdig
    A very interesting documentary about history of banking – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H56FUHgqRNE
    To name but a few

  49. Meanwhile, who will shoot the Uzbeki regime henchmen? On 6th of October last weekend an 18 year old Navruz Islamov was beaten to death by uzbek police in Kashkadarya region for refusing to pick cotton due to health reasons. It was saturday and Navruz went to go to cotton fields for his mother to pick cotton for her who is a teacher and must pick certain amount of cotton(In Uzbekistan you don’t have weekend day offs). It was a hot day and after working a while Navruz felt unwell, he wanted to go home. However, uzbek police, like nazi wardens during WW2, were watching people in cotton fields. They beat up Navruz so badly for refusing to return to cotton fields he died on the way to hospital. Nobody talks about such atrocities in Uzbekistan, because Uzbeki henchmen are friends of America and Britain. Shame on anyone who is proud to be british or american!

  50. UK pays £400million/Each day in INTEREST on its debt.

    How did RBS get that £1.3 trillion hole in its balance sheet?

    10 years it went from assets on £88 billion to liabilities of £1.3 trillion. these losses belong to the tax payer.

  51. @Gary Smith – You are right.

    In a nutshell, changing the world begins with changing oneself.

  52. An interesting exercise:

    Walk down your local High Street and count the businesses which can still afford town centre rates and prestigious buildings. Total up the ones that deal in money – banks, building societies, currency exchanges, pay day loaners, insurance companies, investment brokers, pawn brokers, cheque cashers, gold buyers, cash converters, etc. Now total up all the rest.


  53. Why do government feel the need to save banks, for example northern rock had 2 billion in deposits and 110 billion in mortgages, if it went bust, 2 billion would be lost in deposits and 110 billion would get wiped out in mortgages, the government the can then ask the mortgage holders if they can repay 2% of their mortgage to clear the amount, and give that money to the depositors, problem solved, don’t see how this would require massive billion pound bailouts,

  54. In PARLIAMENT this Wednesday, the MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, with support from my co-director here at the Cobden Centre, Steve Baker, the Member for Wycombe, introduced a Ten Minute Rule Bill seeking dramatic reform of the UK’s banks, writes Toby Baxendale.

    The bill was brought in with no objections, and the next reading will be on the 19th of November. You can read the full text of Carswell’s speech at TheyWorkForYou. Steve Baker has been promoting its ideas on his CentreRight blog, which also carries a survey – conducted on our behalf by ICM – showing great confusion on the part of the British public concerning the legal relationship between banker and customer.

    The current state of the law? The key case is Carr v Carr 1811 (reported in Merivale (541 n) 1815 – 17). A testator in making his bequest said “whatever debts might be due to him…at the time of his death”, the key question in this case being whether “a cash balance due to him on his banker’s account” passed by this bequest. The Master of the Rolls, Sir William Grant held that it did. He reasoned that it was not a depositum; a sealed bag of money could be, but this generally deposited money could not possibly have an ‘earmark’.

  55. In judgment, the Lord Chancellor Cottenham said the following:
    “Money, when paid into a bank, ceases altogether to be the money of the principal; it is by then the money of the banker, who is bound to return an equivalent by paying a similar sum to that deposited with him when he is asked for it.

    “The money paid into a banker’s is money known by the principal to be placed there for the purpose of being under the control of the banker; it is then the banker’s money; he is known to deal with it as his own; he makes what profit of it he can, which profit he retains to himself, paying back only the principal, according to the custom of bankers in some places, or the principal and a small rate of interest, according to the custom of bankers in other places.

    “The money placed in custody of a banker is, to all intents and purposes, the money of the banker, to do with it as he pleases; he is guilty of no breach of trust in employing it; he is not answerable to the principal if he puts it into jeopardy, if he engages in a hazardous speculation; he is not bound to keep it or deal with it as the property of his principal; but he is, of course, answerable for the amount, because he has contracted, having received that money, to repay to the principal, when demanded, a sum equivalent to that paid into his hands.

    “That has been the subject of discussion in various cases, and that has been established to be the relative situation of banker and customer. That being established to be the relative situations of banker and customer, the banker is not an agent or factor, but he is a debtor.”
    Thus the settled position of the law is that when you deposit, the bank becomes the owner of the money deposited and you become a creditor to the bank.

    The Carswell Bill, in contrast, seeks to align the law with what people actually think happens: that they deposit money and it is theirs. It also seeks to allow savers to save in a term deposit, by which they knowingly and indeed willingly allow the bank to lend their money to borrowers. This relationship will then be that of a depositor lending to the bank and the bank being the debtor to the lender.

  56. Hang the bankers? Sure, go for it! (I don’t think anyone would doubt the outcome of a national referendum based on the question “Should those responsible for the ‘financial crisis’ be prosecuted?”)

    Having said that, I see evidence of the general public’s complicity in this culture of greed every time I pass a lottery ticket stall – more often than not, there is a long queue of people with a certain kind of look on their faces – a kind of suppressed but visible anxiousness (Will I win this time?).

    We have become a nation of gamblers. And most gamblers are losers (ask any casino/betting shop worker)!

    I have never bought a lottery ticket myself, not because I couldn’t use the money if I won, but because I find the whole thing repulsive and I just don’t want to participate in it. The repulsion I feel towards the national lottery (and all its spin-offs) is much stronger than the occasional frustration I feel when I can’t afford something I want/need.

    I suspect that a majority of ‘ordinary’ people, given the chance to pay themselves huge annual bonuses (like corporate CEOs) would do so. So how different would those ‘ordinary’ people then be, from the criminal bankers? And how different are they now? The only difference is one of opportunity!

  57. @LeonardYoung

    Thanks for that comment re: housing market, that strikes me as a very clear-sighted analysis.

  58. As I se it, the reason why New Labour bailed out Northern Rock was not for the sake of the bankers but to prevent millions of core Labour supporters losing their savings, and consequently the party losing a large number of seats in parliament.

    In a democracy, a ruling party that does this sort of thing should be voted ou8t of power. And so they were.

    You see, democracy in the UK works just fine. :)

  59. Gamblers?

    “Trader turned neuroscientist explores risky highs”

    LONDON | Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:29am EDT

    (Reuters) – When John Coates was on a winning streak during his days as a trader at Deutsche Bank and Goldman Sachs, the narcotic-like “high” he experienced was so powerful he was determined to find out more.

    So after 13 years on trading floors on Wall Street he moved to the neuroscience labs of Rockefeller University in New York and of Britain’s Cambridge University.

    Here, the trader turned neuroscientist has been bent on uncovering the brain biology behind that high, what it did to him, and what it’s probably doing to those he left behind.

    What he’s come up with, after several years reading up on animal studies and some interesting experiments with spit, is that risk taking is driven by a “winner effect” – a hormonal mechanism in which each competitive victory leads to more wins.

    “The narcotic high was as powerful as anything I have ever felt,” Coates said in an interview during a medical conference in London, describing the experience of making huge profits and big bonuses at some of the world’s largest banks.

    And as other experts in psychiatry and neuroscience at the conference agreed, the consequences of a winner effect gone out of control can lead some to become power-corrupted politicians, cruel military dictators and even surgeons who like to play god.


    Me, I’m interested in the “experiments with spit”. As far as I know, the figures Neil quoted about Irish citizens, up top, are correct. And it’s all to pay back French and German (and British) banks who took a gamble on the famous ‘Celtic Tiger’ and lost. But who have to be paid back anyway – according to our bendy-backed Government. Have you ever seen a more weak-willed-looking PM than Enda Kenny? (Featured recently on the cover of Time magazine with the title, ‘The Celtic Comeback’.) I call him the cardboard man.


  60. Oops, sorry, this time I put in TWO links. Entirely my own fault.

    When will they ever learn?
    When will they e–ver learn?

  61. Mary, Brian, your comments are right on the button. I just wish there was an alternative social-networking site with the pull of Facebook that was not a tool for information-gathering. I think I’m one of the few who use it for politicising. But I use it for social contact too. Most of my friends steer clear of politics. I like to thing they are boiling with disgust under their skins. But who knows?

  62. G Edward Griffin “The Creature of Jekyll Island” http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&v=Q93R5EQVOLI

    You don’t need more than a revolver to finish off those responsible for the fractional reserve banking system and the subsequent tyranny we are now living in.

    They are responsible for and the real owners of the European Union and Globalisation is their scheme.

  63. @Jives “You couldn’t fu**ing make it up!


    – Oops, we’re off-topic here, but can’t resist commenting:

    “A Daily Mail [the paragon of even-handed political and social comment] leader column last week accused the BBC of double standards, claiming it “consistently attacks Christianity (though never Islam)”

    Excuse me, but doesn’t the BBC usually refer to Muslims as “Islamic militants” (or “Islamists” – a term inherently critical and negative) and heavily-armed far-right-wing Jewish illegal occupiers (of Palestinian territory) as “settlers” (“settlers” sounds so peaceful, doesn’t it?

    No, you couldn’t make it up, but Orwell saw it coming!

  64. The web is of course ubiquitous, wall to wall, wherever – and Facebook inherits the same reach, the same congruous birthmarks; the nature of the beast, to use or abuse.

    Thus it is negative to kick up a fuss about a 600 million user weblog called Facebook except to expose those who capitalise on that massive reach to invalidate the synergy of team glue, the marriage of a common vision, be it playing games, idle chat or eliciting support and guidance.

    That should be the spirit of the web; void of soul we are not human, deficient in kindness, mercy and compassion.

  65. Some of its reporters put awkward questions to politicians and even try to insist on straight answers. Hence, it is leftwing.

    And compared with our American mentors, this country is a hotbed of revolutionary Marxism. Even the BNP.

  66. CCTV wherever you go,whether outside or in shops/venues.

    Facebook and other so-CIA-l media data-mining everything.

    Over 700 Govt agencies able to tap/surveill you.

    Google etc tracking every click you make.

    Google street view.

    Apple/Samsung etc in your home and pocket;listening and watching through your mobile/TV/radio.

    And that’s only the stuff we know about.

    WTF is going on???

  67. Don’t have to shoot them ALL. Bankers are like boars; shoot one and the rest get the wind up.

    Here in Barcelona, a few centuries back, we had a spate of bent bankers. Laws were passed, and one banker was beheaded for fiddling the scales. Normality was immediately ressumed!

  68. Sorry if it seems my surveillance rant seems OT but the point i was trying to make in relation to this thread was that there seems to total surveillance (Total Information Awareness) everywhere except where it’s really needed i.e.the boardrooms and Westminster.

    Of course i’m not naive enough to think this was exactly the plan…

  69. Tory backbencher Douglas Carswell introduced his Financial Services (Regulation of Deposits and Lending) Bill on 15 September 2010.
    The aim of the bill – introduced under the ten minute rule motion – is to prohibit banks and building societies lending on the basis of demand deposits without the permission of the account holder.


  70. “WTF is going on???”

    Looks like someone is into control. Now who can that be? Who is paying off the politicians, who owns the media? Who makes billions on wars? Who have a megalomaniac psychopathic desire to rule the animals in human form? Not the bankers, or…?

    And what is the political ideology of those bankers? Zionism. There you go.

  71. So a blog which devotes much time to praising the sanctity of life and condeming the British and American governments of almost routine murder now calls for the murder of their fellow citizens and lynchings? I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to. Utterly pathetic, yet quite funny for those of us with a more rational disposition.

  72. Heh, try the “liberal bias” in this recent corker:


    I keep meaning to post that to the Media Lens board – the angry bias in that one is surely worthy a complaint, even if it goes nowhere.

  73. @IK5, you think if you provided to Craig his imaginary householder arsenal, plus Fred The Shred tied to a post, that our host would pull the trigger? I don’t.

    But I do think the banking class has a lot to answer for. Try as I might, I couldn’t find anything about that in your post just now. Perhaps if I get a magnifying glass on the last full stop, something cogent about that will be written there, in very small text?


  74. Jon – I actually thought that was pretty neutral. Which bit did you object to?

  75. “fellow citizens” implies some sort of communality of interest and behaviour, doesn’t it? And no-one was advocating lynchings. A trial under established laws regarding theft and fraud, followed by a public judicial execution would be quite sufficient.

  76. IK5

    “So a blog which devotes much time to praising the sanctity of life and condeming the British and American governments of almost routine murder now calls for the murder of their fellow citizens and lynchings? I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to. Utterly pathetic, yet quite funny for those of us with a more rational disposition.2

    How was your sense of humour bypass? I bet you’re a hoot at a party.

  77. “I am constantly amazed at the new depths which the author and those who share his opinions can sink to.”

    Check out this infographic. It’s about laughter and how it’s good for you.


  78. The roots of many problems do appear to lie in the banking system. If you haven’t already, I heartily recommend you read Web of Debt by Ellen Brown.

  79. Very melodramatic, Craig. The final cost of the bank bailouts will not be very large, assuming of course that the government’s stakes in Lloyds and RSB are sold for a reasonable price and that the guarantees are not called upon.

  80. I am intermittently amazed at people who are constantly amazed. Requires intense concentration on object of amazement while maintaining correct uniform level of amazement. Sir, I salute you.

  81. You mean like Northern Rock, James C? The auditors reckon that the taxpayer is out of pocket by £2Bn on that one alone.

  82. Thought for The Day:
    Give a man a gun & he can rob a bank; give a man a bank & he can rob the World.

  83. Jives,

    I had a similar argument I believe with Dave Davis(pseudonym) in WebCameron, on civil liberties, that is until I read this:


    All is not what it seems to be and Davis is struggling to grip the mettle even though he supported the civil liberties campaign group Big Brother Watch and in January 2010 he spoke with Tony Benn at the official launch.


    We are a somewhat private and cautious nation which can present difficulties when advocating a ‘One mind Won Victory’ approach to route and KO the execrable minds of the false democratic value proponents who confuse Judaism with Zionism and overlook the suffering of many past and present.

    I find transparency is key. To look the bastards in the face presents a problem to them.

    The world of the ‘others’ is waterlogged by deception, permeated by lies. They cannot survive in this world or in the next where in fact one mind, one conscious is indeed de rigeur and victory.

  84. Wow!, Craig,


  85. Dragonly drollery…lol

  86. @ Mark Golding,

    Thanks for the link and your,as always,astute thoughts.

    I’ve always thought DD was a straw-man,the token Tory sop to the civil liberty issues.

  87. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 4:16 pm

    Stocks and Pillories would be more entertaining, as long as there is sufficient wilted produce for pelting, that is.

    During the Bush regime, I suggested we take all the war criminals and divest them of their ill-gotten riches from the war, and requiring each to work at minimum wage jobs flipping burgers, living in tenements for a period not less than 10 years.

    As for burglars versus bankers, the advice from a Hollywood gangster; “Never steal anything small”

  88. “How was your sense of humour bypass? I bet you’re a hoot at a party.”

    My thoughts also. But then, well they did fund Hitler’s war machine, and as a group they have probably funded both sides of many major conflicts.
    ‘Crucifixion is too good for em’ comes to mind.

    I don’t know if a punishment has been invented that could seem like justice in the face of such inhumanity perpetrated for money. And they all do it, ‘it’s just a job’. Well I’d say there a breed as bad as any fascist or other nutty groups because there the enablers, an no kind of morals come into it.

    I don’t believe in punishment but I do believe in stopping injustice. I was going to suggest the executions at Nuremberg as an example, I don’t think they needed to be killed but it’s hard to say the sentience was unjust, even if like me you believe killing is always wrong. Thinking of that example though, it was stupid to kill people who had already done the crime and I wonder if it was not more about emphasizing the ‘bad’ guys. Truth is there where many bad guys funding it, and they continue funding these things.

    It’s a mad world these people create that can only lead to more injustice and destruction. As a feeling ‘Shoot the bankers’ is spot on IMO.

    Make no mistake also. Destroying a country through fraud is not much different than war. Many thousands will still die where they otherwise would not. Malnutrition, suicide, increasing health costs for profit’s. And the bought and sold politicians will blame the victimises as they exploit them more than ever. You could not make it up, the low shitness they stoop to.

    And did anyone get was Cameron was going on about recently? ‘He is just a simple guy who whats to take care of his family’? As if he ever has to worry about money, as if he has ever had to. What a joke of a man. Did he not say a while back he wanted to be some sort of barron or duke or some such titel? What a backwards step for society to have such class ideas.

  89. @Komodo, re the Beeb article:

    “long after Marxism had been discredited in the West” – tells the reader what to think of Marxism.

    “An unrepentant Marxist” – in case we missed it the first time.

    Normally the establishment bias from Auntie is a lot more subtle, and probably mostly subconscious anyway, but here I thought it was stronger than usual. Frustrating, since the purpose is ostensibly an obituary, which are traditionally respectful.

  90. Robert Fallin

    11 Oct, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    Amen,Craig. One nice thing about it; if you pick bankers from the right companies, you do not have to worry about “collateral damage”.

  91. Should we shoot bankers? Would it not be better to take our money back off them? This one was shot.


  92. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXhqvAbUDmg

    Bankers get thier just award.

  93. “One year on, I think the only thing that’s changed is that it’s very nice to walk past St Paul’s again. Apart from that, I don’t think Occupy has changed anything, I don’t think it achieved anything and I think most people in the City have probably forgotten about it and don’t even realise that it’s the one-year anniversary.”

    Joshua Raymond representing the City of London banking community.

    “As to the after-effects of Occupy, it’s there, it’s in the background at least. It’s still in the public consciousness. People are still doing things, making connections, meeting each other and getting projects rolling. Some of it will be called Occupy and some of it won’t.

    It is still a banner for a very broad-based group of people who are ready to talk to others they might not have met before, but have come to a shared understanding of the bankruptcy of our inherited economic model.”

    Rich Paton -Occupy movement.

    “My own perception is that the City of London as a key centre of the financial industry continues to grapple with issues of morality, integrity, financial regulation and policy. Occupy has not driven that process, but by its work has and does keep it in the public eye as a priority for policymakers.”

    Very Reverend Dr David Ison, Dean of St Paul’s Cathedral

    The additional sanctions on Iran issued by the White House October 9th 2012 contain the word ‘treasury’ i.e. ‘bank’ fourteen (14) times. It seems Craig is right in his ‘tongue in cheek’ assumption that guns i.e. ‘conflict and war’ and money are synonymous – hence ‘shoot a banker’ – very clever.

    In these recent sanctions we witness an extension to ‘goods’ and ‘property’ as a sufferance, a strong-arm tactic by America (and endorsed by Britain) towards a peaceful nation.

    Interestingly we note the clauses, ‘used to commit serious human rights abuses against the people of Iran’ – as if to negate the distress, hardship, misery and torture of the Iranian people by this additional punitive legislation.

    The prohibitions remind me of Palestine and Israel’s total lack of regard for the welfare of those imprisoned behind the shrinking concrete walls of a badland reservation, a dominion of severe poverty, disease and malnutrition.

    To me it seems America has learned to express neither remorse or compassion from it’s own bombing and confiscation of tribal lands (Pine Ridge) and the massacre of its indigenous people (Wounded Knee).

    I look you, President Obama in the face with the words of a fellow countryman:

    “I know of no other instance in history where a great nation has so shamefully violated its oath. Our country must forever bear the disgrace and suffer the retribution of its wrongdoing. Our children’s children will tell the sad story in hushed tones, and wonder how their fathers dared so to trample on justice and trifle with God.”


  94. We need to fix the root causes.

    1. LIBOR etc should be based only on public, open data. Nobody ever managed to tamper with the value of the FTSE-100, because everyone can calculate it for themself.

    2. Instead of transaction tax, just rate-limit the transactions: all trades execute on the minute, every minute. Then humans can think as fast as the computers, and there is no unfair advantage from high-frequency trading (nor the problems that can result).

  95. Ben Franklin (Anti-intellectual Colonial American Savage version)

    11 Oct, 2012 - 5:55 pm

    ““I know of no other instance in history where a great nation has so shamefully violated its oath. Our country must forever bear the disgrace and suffer the retribution of its wrongdoing. Our children’s children will tell the sad story in hushed tones, and wonder how their fathers dared so to trample on justice and trifle with God.””

    I am part Blackfoot/Cherokee, and many Americans share a bloodline with NA’s who understand
    the History. Add to that my Scot/Irish ancestors who understand the tyranny of the Majority.

    Now, go fish.

  96. doug scorgie

    11 Oct, 2012 - 6:01 pm

    Phil 10:16
    It appears that any calls for launching a criminal investigation are being ignored while talk of fines, under civil proceedings, is the preferred option.

    However; manipulation of the Libor rate is covered adequately under Theft Act 1968 and the Fraud Act 2006 and as such is already a criminal offence. I query why this fact is not publically conceded by the government or the FSA.

    Public confidence in the rule of law will be seriously undermined if Libor manipulation; money laundering, miss-selling and other crimes are not addressed in criminal proceedings. If the criminal justice system can send people to prison for benefit fraud or stealing water why does it fail to even prosecute the ‘elite’ fraudsters?

    From the Guardian (28/09/12):
    “Martin Wheatley, a senior regulator at the Financial Services Authority recommended that the FSA should regulate the Libor system, and told the Today programme that in the extreme cases those who manipulate Libor should go jail.”
    [Why only in extreme cases? Fraud is fraud, theft is theft.]

    “Wheatley wants the law to be changed to make it an offence to make a false or misleading statement to manipulate Libor.”
    [As I have said these offences are covered under criminal law]

    Wheatley goes on:
    “This would enable the FSA to use criminal powers for the worst cases of attempted manipulation…”
    [They already have this power!]

    A press release from the Serious Fraud Office 30 July 2012 states:

    “Further to our announcement on 2 July 2012, the Director of the Serious Fraud Office, David Green QC, is satisfied that existing criminal offences are capable of covering conduct in relation to the alleged manipulation of LIBOR and related interest rates.”

    We are being misled by the government and the FSA.
    Instead of anticipating fines the bankers and others should be packing small suitcases in anticipation of prison sentences.

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