Palestine and the Assange Test

by craig on November 30, 2012 9:00 am in Uncategorized

Many congratulations to Palestine on being recognised as a non-member state at the United Nations. There is a distinct irony that, apart from the unreconstructed climate change deniers in the United States, Canada and the Czech Republic, the supporters of Palestinian genocide could only muster votes from the tiniest island states threatened by climate change. Where is the much vaunted American Empire now?

Both the United States and Israel are incapable of introspection; instead they have reacted by saying the rest of the world is mad.

There was also a chilling admission of the United States support for extreme zionist land claims, from Hillary Clinton, who called for negotiation “Between Jerusalem and Ramallah”. Not Tel Aviv; Jerusalem.

I argued a year ago that Palestine could join the International Criminal Court without waiting for this vote. But this vote certainly removes all doubt on that score.

I was absolutely disgusted by William Hague’s offer of support form Palestine if Palestine agreed not to join, or take cases to, the International Criminal Court. It is yet another example of that theme to which my writing constantly returns, the abandonment by neo-con UK governments of the principle of international law in favour of a might is right approach. It was always UK policy to encourage dispute resolution by international courts. Now we are discouraging it.

There is a very important practical point here. As I also wrote a year ago:

There is an extremely crucial point here: if Palestine accedes to the Statute of Rome, under Article 12 of the Statute of Rome, the International Criminal Court would have jurisdiction over Israelis committing war crimes on Palestinian soil. Other states parties – including the UK – would be obliged by law to hand over indicted Israeli war criminals to the court at the Hague. This would be a massive blow to the Israeli propaganda and lobbying machine.

This explains why Hague was so keen to avert Palestinian membership of the ICC. Not only can Palestine indict Israeli war criminals (and they should start immediately with those behind Operation Cast Lead and the attack on the Mavi Marmara) but Britain will be obliged – as will all other European Union countries – to hand them over to the court.

Given that this disgraceful government had specifically enacted legislation to block other avenues for the indictment of Israeli war criminals in the United Kingdom, this is infuriating for our zionist sponsored politicians.

It also raises an interesting point. We have seen the entire political establishment enthusiastically promoting the automaticity of European arrest warrants in the case of Julian Assange. How will those same politicians react to the automaticity of arrest warrants for Israeli war criminals? I suspect that they will suddenly discover there is a need for political intervention in such cases.

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  1. I did reflect after seeing the nations who voted No, how many people it actually made up in numbers.Not many Benny ! I was surprised by the Balkan vote though.
    If you add up the countries populations who said YES then overwhelming is an understatement.
    Over 75% of the UK population supported a Palestinian State for the UN but our bought and paid for Lobbyists from that minority party that run our country decided otherwise. So glad that Abbas ignored that bald embarrassment we have for a Foreign Minister,and stuck to his principles.
    The MSM has played it down as well, choosing the Leveson diversion to relegate it to the 2nd page.
    It is so gratifying to watch Zionist influence wane ! It’s definitely a moment to celebrate and savour.
    The carrots for the Palestinians didn’t look like much , lets see what the sticks turn out to be. The US and Israel have promised retaliation.


    Who voted ‘No’? Who voted ‘Abstain’?


    Canada, Czech Republic, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau, Panama.

    Plus the Jewish Nazis of Israel and the fascists U.S. Empire itself. (*)


    Albania, Australia, Barbados, Bulgaria, Estonia, Germany, Guatemala, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Togo, U.K. – Provisional list.

    Plus 25 US fascist Empire lapdogs more.

    Partial source – they’re hard to find – and not by accident ?? – the US Empire / Google News fixed. No change there, then! – Bernama – Malaysian National News Agency –

    “How Europe Voted” – The Daily Heil – ER, US version – the Washington Post ; ) …

    – Stuff how Europe’s US stooges voted. What about the other thirty or so US stooges? Who are they? Australia, Singapore, Guatemala for three. –

    THE RIGHTEOUS – ‘YES’ – 138

    The righteous, and the hypocritical who murder Arabs in Syria, yet vote ‘Yes’ on Palestinian statehood – France for one.


    Naturally, it’s only US Empire mushrooms who are kept in the dark with endless Fascist News lies, disinformation and omissions of real news shoveled on top of them.

    Why does the U.N. not have a link to the details of the vote? Too lazy to post a link? Or it wouldn’t suit the U.S. Empire fascists perchance. ??? –


    Gilad Atzmon – It’s Jewish Israeli Nazi-like behaviour. Not Zionist Nazi. “‘Zionist’ is Israeli / Jewish spin.” (Oh, really? Now he tells us. Doh! ; ) ).

    Gaza genocide – by Jewish Nazis of Israel- with US Empire Nazi approval, support, permission and bombs. – No change there, then! –

    Your US tax dollars at work – Gaza Genocide –

    Victims of the Gaza Genocide – those slaughtered innocents look just like the slaughtered innocents of Syria, Iraq and the slaughtered innocents of Afghanistan. What a surprise. Not. –

    From Gilad Atzmon, interviewed by Afshin Rattansi –

    – ‘Zionism, Jewishness and All That Jazz’ – 3rd June, 2012 – Double Standards – Press TV –

    Or, to see previous shows. select Press TV -> Programs -> Double Standards –


    Just say “Up yours” to USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazi mass psychosis! –

    USUK Empire Neo-Con Nazism made mainstream by ‘Biggus Dickus,’ (of Wome on the Potomac) — Big Oil tool and US Torture promoter – brought to Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Aden, Syria, Egypt, Uzbekistan, Poland, Lithuania and many, many more —

    ‘Welease Woger’ and ‘He Wanks as high as any in Wome’. A hidden Richard Cheney reference? –

  3. Spot on Craig.

    I have made a quick trawl for the abstentions. Nothing doing.

    Even the UN General Assembly Resolutions website goes to this on refresh. The last entry was for 28 November. Pathetic.

    The UN website is undergoing urgent maintenance and is currently unavailable

    Please check back in a short while.

    Has it crashed because so many people want to know the details?

  4. Details tomorrow? Next week? Next year?

  5. Mary,

    The way the UN works, normally it would be published on paper about 24 hours after the vote and 48 or so would not be unusual. They need to bring out an agreed account, in multiple equally valid languages, simultaneously. It takes a bit of time.

  6. willyrobinson

    30 Nov, 2012 - 10:12 am

    Well written, interesting connection to European warrants.
    @donnydarko – I’m not sure influence is waning, just out-manoevered this one time.

  7. I think we know full well how those politicians will react to any arrest warrants.

  8. Here’s a bit of analysis of the European vote, with graphics of the “international community” and comparisons with the vote last year.

    Seems the former Soviet satellites are much more inclined to abstain. Very curious in a moral sense given their experience, but I suppose they’ve been bribed.


    Who voted ‘Abstain’?


    Albania, Andorra, Australia, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia/Herzogovina, Bulgaria, Cameroon, Colombia, Croatia, Congo, Estonia, Fiji, Germany, Guatemala, Haiti, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Malawi, Moldova, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Netherlands, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Poland, Romania, Rwanda, Samoa, San Marino, S. Korea, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Togo, Tonga, U.K., Vanuatu

    Complete list – a photograph, by God. Nice going Fred!

    Found at Craig Murray’s website – post 7 – from Fred, 30th November, 2012 @ 10.14am –

    or –

  10. “Seems the former Soviet satellites are much more inclined to abstain. Very curious in a moral sense given their experience, but I suppose they’ve been bribed.”

    Blackmailed more like, same as Britain’s embarrassing abstention.

  11. Good to hear you are much better than Julian Assange, somehow he has a lung condition as well…. does he smoke? It is to be seen whether the smidgeon left of British Governments compassion will let him get medical treatment before he’s going back into his artificial but necessary, self incarceration, or whether they would send him to the US, ill on a stretcher…

    will we now see our ME envoy do his job? acting upon popular UN demand? hang on, there’s a horse in my kitchen brewing coffee… Will roadblocks be dismantled while he is watching/smiling?
    Nope he would be worried that some duck brained settler would shoot him, sorry ducks.

    Can we expect that Syria’s conflict will escalate to the extend that Hezbollah will get involved somehow, my guess? and that Lebanon will be dragged into it by its connections and make up of the population?, who knows what Iran’s response will be to such mayhem at its northern border.

    With the latest judgements of Croatian murderers being set free by the Hague, bless, they want to join Europe badly, I’m beginning to have my doubts about the ICC Ms. Justice, she seems to be taken behind the shed by a bunch of bully boys. Why do we expect justice for Palestinians from a court that sets murderers free?

    But I’m so happy for Palestine today and I hope harry Fear will get his phone back before somebody has forwarded his tel. number to the Israeli’s. He was/is a serious pillar in the propaganda war, a brave young man indeed and not a flap jacket in sight.

  12. Of the former members of the Yugoslav Republic, only Serbia voted YES – all the rest abstained.

    I think too that Serbia was the only one of these to fight against the Nazis.

    Funny old world.

  13. @ Fred

    The link to the voting results was triffic.

    > Blackmailed more like, same as Britain’s embarrassing abstention.
    Please speculate on what the UK was blackmailed with / by?

    It might save some of us being as rude as possible about the US Empire as a general rule.

    We might even substitute facts for a change! ; )

  14. Spineless Australia ended up abstaining, but only just. Our US-sycophant PM Julia Gillard pushed for a No vote. Big blue in the cabinet room on the eve of the vote, luckily she was rolled.

    Viva Palestina!

  15. “Please speculate on what the UK was blackmailed with / by?”

    Don’t know, could be Cameron has a few tactical nuclear skeletons in his closet.

    Britain has been making use of Israel’s get out of jail free card ever since they invaded Egypt for us in 1956.

  16. Thanks.

    Ah, well I’ll just have to stick to vulgar abuse. ; )

    Abstainers – “The hopeless, the US Empire’s bought-and-paid-for stooges, and Germany in a race to the bottom with the U.K. for the title of ‘Most spineless European US fascist Empire lapdog formerly a major power’.”

  17. I think it will be good fun if Obama nominates Susan Rice for Sec for State. Whatever you think of Hillary Clinton, Rice is really a very very poor performer at the lying game.

    She’s one of those people whose facial expressions and demeanour reveal she doesn’t believe a word she’s sayiing. She always overacts the part too, like an overly stern headmistress. Understandable of course, when your job is to talk shite.

    Something to look forward to perhaps.

  18. Herbie,

    The sad thing is I worked with Susan Rice a bit on South Africa many years ago. She was a good person. Another one corrupted by power.

  19. Craig, you wrote:

    “Not only can Palestine indict Israeli war criminals (and they should start immediately with those behind Operation Cast Lead and the attack on the Mavi Marmara)…”

    Can cases be brought retroactively? If not, would the blockade of Gaza be a good place to start?

    Whatever, the Palestinians’ new status looks like it will be a test of the legitimacy of the UN.

  20. Thanks Craig and Fred for your advices.

    On the subject of longevity (or the lack of it!) I had a lovely walk along the river this morning in bright sunlight and with frost glinting. Ahead of me was a tall slim man whose gait was strange and who, every now and again, lurched as his body convulsed. I was fearing for his safety as the towpath is just rough ground and was also slippery because of the ice. I did not fancy a dip into the river if he should fall.

    I eventually caught up with him and we got talking. He has Huntingdon’s Disease (I think it used to be called Huntington’s Chorea). Such a nice and brave man and philosophical too about his condition. His male Labrador was also friendly and nice and slim. Meeting this man and speaking with him cheered me enormously and made me thankful for my own good health, so far.


  21. “Ah, well I’ll just have to stick to vulgar abuse. ; )”

    Seek and ye shall find. There are rumours concerning two Davids, a Cameron and a Kelly and ten battlefield tactical nuclear bombs built by Israeli scientists in South Africa. Word on the street is that they were the WMD we invaded Iraq looking for.

    I don’t know how much truth there is in the rumour, just a possibility.

  22. Hagues warning not to go to the ICC was very sinister, like a gangsters warning not to involve the police.

  23. Croatia’s doing what it was told to do I see. It is applying to enter the EU. The American wife of a friend works for the World Bank and has just been there for a long stint doing the prep work!

    Shame on the 41 abstainers and the shameful ‘9’ Noes.

    Any views on Cameron, Clegg and Leveson Craig?

    This is Steve Bell’s cartoon. Murdoch is riding Cameron who is in a condom and I think that’s Miliband Jnr swimming in the other direction with a little yellow bird called Clegg on his back.

    Cartoon, 29 Nov 2012:
    Rupert Murdoch and David Cameron aligned, as are Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg after the publication of the Leveson report

  24. Craig Murray doesn’t fail, seeing the world in a black and white vision again and even frothing at the mouth about “climate change deniers” in relation to vote on Palestinian observer state status. It is funny that he talks about the handful of states opposing the Palestinian move, naming them out loud, and then suddenly switching to attack Hague of Great Britain over…opposing the Palestinian move. Where the Great Britain abstained from voting. Indeed, the only reason he can gloat is because he doesn’t count in absent states among those, who disagree with the unilateral declaration, which will surely raise many expectations in Palestine, but in reality will not change anything on the ground, where Israel continues to refuse to budge. Congratulations on pointlessly ratcheting up the tensions.

    Craig Murray talks about Rome statute and pursuance of war criminals – I trust that if parties to the ICC treaty ask for extradition of Palestinian war criminals, eg. Hamas officials, the Palestinian authority will be happy to follow its obligations in line with international law? That would be absolutely delightful.

  25. As Clark says –

    Whatever, the Palestinians’ new status looks like it will be a test of the legitimacy of the UN.

    The UN is overdependent on US funding, and the US rightly sees it as an obstacle to American global hegemony. This is not a good position from which to be legitimate.

    The US has withheld funding from the UN before, and over a similar issue:

    Under the Reagan administration, the U.S. withdrew from UNESCO, withheld its dues to encourage the UN to repeal Resolution 3379, which it did in 1991. The U.S. was—and continues to be—the member state levied most heavily by the UN[], so U.S. policymakers correctly expected this strategy to be an effective way to oppose Soviet and Arab influence over the UN[]. When the UN repealed Resolution 3379 the U.S. resumed dues payments, but not before the U.S. had accumulated a significant and controversial arrears.

    Wikiphobes – I don’t think you’ll find much wrong with this entry. But there are a couple of ‘citations needed’, which I’ve abbreviated to [].

    {United Nations General Assembly Resolution 3379, adopted on November 10, 1975 by a vote of 72 to 35 (with 32 abstentions), “determine[d] that Zionism is a form of racism and racial discrimination“; resolution 3379 was revoked in 1991 by UN General Assembly Resolution 4686. ….also Wikipedia}

  26. “Craig Murray talks about Rome statute and pursuance of war criminals – I trust that if parties to the ICC treaty ask for extradition of Palestinian war criminals, eg. Hamas officials, the Palestinian authority will be happy to follow its obligations in line with international law? That would be absolutely delightful.”

    Palestine does not have any war criminals, they are occupied territories, they have the legal right to defend their lands. It wasn’t the French resistance movement ended up in the dock at Nuremberg now was it?

  27. Thanks for that insight, Craig. It does raise the question as to how people live with themselves – how do they rationalize away such a necessarily schizoid persona.

    Rice has talked about how she was influenced by the genocide in Rwanda and the lack of action. She resolved not to let it happen again and became a warrior for “liberal intervention”, but this doesn’t sit easily with her insistance upon continuing the plight and suffering of the Palestinians and her aiding and abetting their torturers.

    I really don’t know how they do it. Realpolitik on its own isn’t quite enough. Perhaps they have some sense that they’re acting in the service of a greater good beyond. I don’t know.

    In the meantime, all we can do is keep challenging them.

  28. I don’t think anyone rational would object to Hamas’ alleged war criminals being given exactly the same treatment as Israeli ones, Michal. A war criminal is a war criminal, no matter how much support he gets from Washington or Tehran. And it is the Palestinians who are in favour of an arrangement which will ensure that justice of some sort can be done. Not your chums.

    I’m still highly suspicious of the current proceedings, though. Israel badly needed Abbas to boost his credibility somehow. Hamas was in some danger of attracting support from Fatah, due to the luckless Abbas’ unenviable position between the Israeli rock and the activist hard place, leading to the recognition of his ineffectuality. Now they may have their ventriloquist’s dummy back in order. Gottle of halal geverage, anyone?

  29. “Hagues warning not to go to the ICC was very sinister, like a gangsters warning not to involve the police.”

    Precisely. Keep schtum or you’ll get more of the same. Israel is issuing similar threats.

    They are gangsters of course, and bullies too and they don’t like it up’em!

  30. “It wasn’t the French resistance movement ended up in the dock at Nuremberg now was it?”

    Victor’s justice. Had they been on the losing side or had the Nuremberg Trials been directed by an independent body things would have been different and a number of allied leaders might’ve had to face charges.

    The Palestinians have the right to defend their land but they’re still expected to abide by international law.

  31. I thought you put that rather well Craig.

  32. Herbie, if people begin actually to believe in what they do – that at some level, it is beneficent – they will do it all the more efficiently and will ease any smoulderings of conscience.

    At that senior status, once someone is working for an imperium – any imperium – they will have come to believe that at some level, the imperium is benificent for the world, a ‘civilising influence’, perhaps, just as the many principled – and, say, liberal and/or Liberal – people who worked at senior levels in the British Empire managed to rationalise their country’s plundering of the colonies over a prolonged period: “We built the railways, we brought the Enlightenment, we educated the natives to be just like us and to engage with us in the ascent of man”.

    Well okay, but Enlightenment ideas would have travelled there in any case, as they did to many other places, and ‘we’ also destroyed nascent industries so that, for example, Manchester could have no competition for its mills. In the early C18th, Bengali cotton mills were more efficent and more advanced than British mills and so, they had to be destroyed. Same thing with Kashmir. Same thing with mid-C19th Egypt’s attempt to industrialise. It had to be smashed. Then, and only then, could we have ‘free trade’.

    So, people like Susan Rice emerge from a very long line of similar, good women and men who sublimate their consciences in the service of empire – in this case, in the service of global capital for which the US military machine is simply a vehicle. They eventually pen long and distinguished memoirs that win prizes and become points of reference for future generations. It’s been the same in all empires – Roman, Ottoman, whatever. This is why it is easier if a cadre is created which is brainwashed from the beginning, from childhood, into believing in the superiority of the mission. As with the Mafia don, mendacity comes then to be seen as simply a means to achieving and implementing a greater, underpinning truth. In essence, the psychological process is theological in nature. Thomas Aquinas, Ibn Rushd.

  33. The problem can arise when people acsend to senior levels and are confronted by the utilitarian necessity fully to comprehend the reality of empire, to shed at least the most superficial protection of false consciousness which wholly embraces the bourgeois bureaucratic levels and to gaze steadfastly into the mirror and to see there, reflected in their own visage, nothing more than the face of empire.

  34. Thanks for that, Suhayl. I agree. Most people, unless they’re psychopathic, need to believe they’re working to a greater good which alleviates any remorse for tactical suppression and violence in the service of that greater good.

    It’s a bit like Chomsky and Herman’s Propaganda Model for media.

    The problem I have with it is that whilst I can see the delusion working in the post WWII period up until say the 1980s, I just don’t believe that anyone working at her level can be so deluded today. Today we’re back in a time that more closely resembles those periods prior to the great awakening of western democracy in the post war period. I find it difficult to believe that today’s planners are any less clued up than they were in the 19th century.

    I think the civilizing stuff was for the public.

    Anyway, what’s your take on the whole Morsi business – the constitution and the secularists etc.

  35. Michal,

    I should be perfectly happy for any Palestinian war criminals to be put before the ICC. I should be even happier if Israel were to sign up to the ICC to initiate such action. I think you will find they are not keen on your bright wheeze. Now why could that be?

  36. Jari Markwort

    30 Nov, 2012 - 1:38 pm

    Maybe a bit late, but here are the results + background

  37. “I just don’t believe that anyone working at her level can be so deluded today.” Herbie, 12:54pm, 30.11.12

    Yes, I agree, Herbie. The leaders, the senior ranks, are fully aware. It is the middle class – the academics, professionals and managers of empire – who tend to (have to be) be the most deeply deluded. Most of these upper-middle classes (or those who identify thgemselves with those groupings) in the UK, for example, tend to treat one – if one is not one of them and if one questions their basic assumptions in any way (or indeed whatever one does or does not do) – as though one were definitively inferior, and the sad, the enraging, thing is, they don’t even realise they are doing it. Furthermore, while it is fine for them to argue strongly, it is not fine for the lower orders to take an active role in arguing for, or working towards, the same thing. We mere plebs have merely to choose a master, a side, to support and always stick to our role, to know our place. Chomsky and Herman, yes, that’s it.

  38. This article starts off with the usual drivel about harming the peace process etc etc blah blah – what peace process.

    Used to get all the same nonsense during the NI peace process, up to and including the Major period.

    Only at the end do they get to the nuts of the matter:

    “In the EU, the Czech Republic is widely considered one of the closest allies of Israel.”

    Hey feckin ho

  39. “This article starts off with the usual drivel about harming the peace process etc etc blah blah – what peace process.”

    That’s the process by which Israel steals Palestinian land peace by peace.

  40. Thanks again, Suhayl. Very well explained re the priestly class.

    I think the leaders, for the most part, take their cue from the aristocratic militaristic class. They of course believe that winning and overcoming is virtue in itself. It’s their duty. If they weren’t doing it someone else would be doing it etc.

    This of course doesn’t sit very well with constructing a stable and civilsed state on the homefront, which is why it was important to have differing policies, domestic and foreign.

    I think however what we’re seeing now in the US certainly, and Britain to a slightly lesser extent is a visting upon the domestic constituency, increasingly barbaric policies that were once reserved for the empire abroad.

    This is probably indicative of decline and end, and of course we see that countries which are emergent, as in south America, are implementing policies that we would have taken for granted in the post war period up until Thatcher.

  41. Right said Fred.

  42. Agree with the gist, however 1st para is an odd non-sequitur ad hominem rolled into one. Is scepticism about AGW theory somehow logically linked with Zionism? (nice emotive language btw – ‘deniers’ no less). It is not relevant what these people think of the long term climate computer models, their justifications for voting the way they did should stand or fall on their own merits. True colours bleeding through again, comrade Murray?

    Why not do some research into this anxiety industry which is able to attract enormous funding and is ideally suited to the aims of our sensationalist media and grasping politicians. I guarantee it will depress you even more.

  43. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 3:00 pm

    Anecdotally I read somewhere that part of the UN agreement was that Palestinians would not seek war crimes prosecution. But there is this………

    “So the Prosecutor has acceptable legal ways to avoid investigating Israelis even if the Palestinians demand it—but would she use those “outs?” And would the judges accept it? If the ICC’s first 10 years are any indication, the court would want to avoid such an investigation at all costs.”

  44. Looks like Canada’s leaders are getting their knickers in a twist, losing the plot and don’t really know what to do next.

    This is what happens when you live in your own invented fantasy world, and global humanity shows you up 138 – 9.

    That ain’t supposed to happen, is it Steve.

  45. Thanks for your eloquent post Suhayl and Herbie, if Palestinians do use the ICC and the court is rebuffed making the ICC as irrelevant as the UN is, currently being brown nosed in Kongo, then maybe the EU will then turn around and question the value of its Association Trade agreement with Israel.

    I agree with you Craig, lets see whether Israel has the guts to bring a case against… ehem, who could they possibly accuse?

    @Herbie the Czechs always had a healthy, stealthy arms trade with Israel and that is what mainly makes up their relationship, imho, can’t see them being interested in Czech beer.

    Just to make you jealou,s Craig, i shall be watching Sunderland loose against the Canaries this Sunday…from the directors box…, got invited by Mervyn L. to join him for a 2 course meal and soup at half time. See what Delia’s nosh is up to.
    Any messages for anyone you might Know there?

  46. @ Craig

    Israel is unlikely to accede to ICC probably because it takes a hostile view of the possibility it is going to be smeared at the court. However, could not such a court action be initiated by other members of ICC, eg. Czech Republic or Great Britain?

  47. Fred +1. Good summary.

  48. Oh I see Michal, the judges and staff of the ICC are – what exactly? Anti-semites? Islamic fundamentalists?

  49. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 3:40 pm

  50. @ Craig

    I am far from such extremist views. At the same time, international tribunals have many peculiarities. Take for example ICTY where Croats and Albanians walk away scott free while Serbs get heavy sentences, thereby unleashing passions in Serbia over the perceived injustice. I am not saying international tribunals can not work well, just that this sort of institution has its pitfalls.

  51. Ben: “Retaliate”? Reprisals against the West Bank Pals? The ICC would love that, if it had the chance.

  52. Remarkably good account of the state of play from a msm source.

  53. Susan Rice says she needs to improve her Hebrew pronunciation!

    Susan Rice Wins Over Israel Supporters
    Jewish Groups Would Welcome Appointment at State Dept.

  54. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 4:02 pm

    They’re doubling-down, ‘modo. Bibi has to do something to save his ‘creds’. You really think the ICC has balls?

  55. Michal is a tad confused, clearly.

  56. A very curious project with an even stranger name.

    Why Is The US Building A Secret $100 Million Underground Facility Outside Tel Aviv?

    Robert Johnson
    Nov. 29, 2012, 11:29 AM

  57. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 4:15 pm

    site 9-11…..Pillar of Smoke….poof !

    But it will have three picnic tables.

  58. I am pleased that the Palestinians have been recognised by some 138 countries in the United Nations.
    Sadly, there is a process of further confrontation evolving. I note that Israel has just approved another 3,000 settlements beyond the 1967 borders. This does not auger well for any peaceful resolution of the Israel/Palestine conflict. Further, states such as the US and UK somehow find it impossible to state the obvious that such settlements are patently illegal.
    I had observed earlier this year on this blog:-
    “Two states will still lead back to one set of problems:-
    1. An existing de jure state of Israel – with what – 20%, 25% Arab/Palestinian population – but – how do you operate and sustain an “ethnic Jewish sate” with that type of demographics? Well – you disenfranchise and discriminate – how else are you going to hold it all together for the “chosen people”? I don’t want to be perceived as “anti-Semitic”( the buzz word anytime issues are raised) – but – do I have a point here or don’t I? Come on with the answers.
    2. A state that already exists de facto – with Apartheid walls surrounding it – Palestine. So – the majority of the UN does the right thing and the US and Israel are the odd ones out who do not want to accept that the Palestinians too have rights.
    3. One state heavily subsidised by the US being a plague in the lives of the next state next to the “chosen people” and what do think will happen?
    Let the debate begin.”
    The core point is this. If one were to place the issue in neutral terms, it could be argued this way. Assume country “X”. It decrees that there will be a single unifying factor that determines citizenship, which we term factor “Y”. The “Y” factor might be “race”; ethnicity; religion – or some other identifying feature. But to maintain the “ Y-ness” of the state, the exclusive recognition of the “Y” factor gives rise to manifest problems of discrimination. In the legislature the minorities in the state cannot be afforded the same political recognition and political stature as those having the “Y-ness” in their citizenship. If that were to be done then the meaning assigned to the state of “X’s” existence would dissipate and eventually be lost. Therein rests the discriminatory “Y” factor in the state. And therein is the core problem of the “X” state.
    Can anyone guess to which state I refer?

  59. Israel’s announcement of 3,000 new settler homes in the West Bank as a response to the UN Palestine vote finally lays bare all those zionist arguments of Israel’s wish to have a ‘ two state solution ‘ and brings closer the realization that despite some Palestinians clinging on to the ‘ two state ‘ option the ‘ one state ‘ will inevitably become the discourse and ‘ struggle ‘ for the future . At least Israel is transparent in it’s ambitions and the obfuscation of zionist sophistry as to this being their destination [ two states ] is consigned to the ever growing ‘ trashcan ‘ of zionist myths .


    Israel approves building of 3,000 units in J’lem, W. Bank

    Inner cabinet approves building of housing units in W. Bank, J’lem and advances plans to build in area E1, connecting J’lem and Ma’aleh Adumim, in response to Palestinian UN move; US previously urged J’lem against such a move.

    Israel approved the construction of 3,000 new housing units in Jerusalem and in the West Bank on Friday in response to the UN approving the Palestinian UN bid for non-member observer state status, government officials stated.

    The inner cabinet also decided to give the go ahead for the planning of thousands of housing units in area E1

  61. Michal: ‘Congratulations on pointlessly ratcheting up the tensions.’
    Who is doing the ratcheting? In my mind’s eye I can envisage a mechanism of a chain ratchet pulley with the locking device or pawl jammed hard against the teeth. The Western powers and Russia all taking turns on the chain to raise Israel’s power.
    If you forced up the locking device or pawl, presumably it is Israel, not its supporters that would fall.

    What we actually need is a block and tackle that will fall on the head of the Western powers who are ratcheting up Israel, while simultaneously dropping Israel. Have you checked the fixing of the pulley recently? Some of those Judaeo-Christian sky-hooks look like they might have metal fatigue. The Qur’an says that the Children of Israel will be gathered together at the end of time. For their benefit or their punishment, I wonder. Time will tell.

  62. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 6:08 pm

    Didn’t take long for the ‘funding’ shoe to drop. How many billions do we send to Israel, each year?

    “Senators Lindsey Olin Graham, John Barrasso, Charles (Chuck) Schumer and Bob Menendez stated that the Palestinian Authority should not sue Israel should they join the International Criminal Court, and that President Mahmoud Abbas must go back to the negotiation table with Israel, and if they sue Israel, the United States will block all funding.”

  63. ‘The spring is coming’ says Munib Al Masri, richest Palestinian. He uses other comparisons as well for the next events that are bearing down on the ME. I feel a common bond with this moderate, we both do not like walls, whether its the past Berlin wall, walls keeping gated communities at bay, or the wall dividing Palestinians from their fields, olive groves and wells.

    Today’s settlement announcements represent the nah na nanah na of a child that did not get its will and was told off for its bullying, thing is, in its pocket it carries a box of matches.

  64. Assange to RT: Entire nations intercepted online, key turned to totalitarian rule

    30 November, 2012, 11:34

    WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange says all the necessary physical infrastructure for absolute totalitarianism through the internet is ready. He told RT that the question now is whether the turnkey process that already started will go all the way.

    Video and transcript

  65. Absolutely, Herbie. Thank, Nevermind.

  66. Olmert realised years ago that these tactics of ethnic cleansing , settling and stealing of the land and property in the end are self defeating.It will make a 2 state solution impossible.
    This means that it will have to become one state. Anathema to most Israeli’s.
    Victory will mean defeat ! No matter which way you look at the problem and no matter how long it takes, the Zionists will lose their dream. The very state that has been trying to destroy the palestinians will have them as citizens.The zionists will drain away leaving the rest of them to get on with it.Once the Eretz Israel project ends, wonder what they will call the country of the Palestinian and the Jew ? Palestine maybe ?
    To save the 2 state solution The United Nations needs to function and Israel be made to listen and follow. There was a partition in 47 and there was also agreement on 67 borders.It needs to be enforced.Israel will never listen to reason.
    The Veto has to be taken away from the big powers.As long as they have it any small nation will be battered whenever the nuclear powers feel like it, and that goes for Israel too. A nuclear powwer and they weild the US veto whenever they feel like it.

  67. Herbie, you’d asked about Egypt. I’m not sure about Egypt, I get different views from different Egyptians (as one might imagine). Some are afraid of an Islamist takeover, others reject that analysis. It’s not the same as Iran, 1979. Post-revolutionary ferment, though. Complex situation. Will take a while for a stable configuaration to emerge. Various forces contending. Stating the obvious, I know! Not much help, I know!

  68. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    30 Nov, 2012 - 7:14 pm

    At the end, Assange brushes aside the last question about his health. “It’s not very interesting…”

  69. Message from a friend.

    WELL DONE TO the Premier League players’ call for Israel Euro 2013 boycott. How disgusting also for UK to abstain in UN VOTE. As soon as Hague (a Friend of Israel) stumbles and breaks his silly big round head like HUMPTY DUMPTY the better and may he be struck with impotence and severe incontinence and get stuck in a Portcullis House lift all weekend.


  70. As a one-state solution becomes more and more inevitable, I imagine that the Israelis will hope to ‘persuade’ the Palestinians to migrate abroad.

    However, you might all be interested in a precedent in Jewish history. I was brought up as a Christian, but I had never heard of this shocking passage in the Hebrew Bible, which I found the other day after getting into a futile argument with a Zionist who absolutely insisted that Jerusalem had been founded by the Jews and had always been a Jewish city. I knew that it had been founded by the Jebusites and, searching for them in the Bible, stumbled across this:

    1 Kings 9:20-22

    “There were still people left [in what is now Israel/Palestine] from the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites (these peoples were not Israelites). Solomon conscripted the descendants of all these peoples remaining in the land – whom the Israelites could not exterminate – to serve as slave labour, as it is to this day. But Solomon did not make slaves of any of the Israelites; they were his fighting men, his government officials, his officers, his captains, and the commanders of his chariots and charioteers.”

    Solomon’s Temple, at whose ruined western wall Jews pray today, was built by foreign slave labour – something I was never told in Sunday school.

  71. How do these pro Israel supporters explain their hostility to the UN vote? What great evil do they claim is unleashed by this international decision that acknowledges Palestinian rights to aspire to and achieve statehood? We’ve heard them squawk about the vote not contributing to the peace process but we are yet to hear rational explanations of how it is a bad thing.

    Is it really all about Palestinian access to the ICC or does it threaten the real scheme – ie Israel’s efforts to slowly, surely and inexorably dispossess the Palestinians of all their historical lands to give Israel a much larger contiguous land mass, longer coast line and access to more natural resources. And then present it as a fait accompli much as other dispossessions of land have been throughout history.

  72. resident dissident

    30 Nov, 2012 - 8:37 pm

    Just to support Michal’s case that “both” Palestinian states have war crimes and other breaches of the UNHCR (which I presume they should now be seeking to comply with?) to answer please find the link here to the Amnesty report

    It doesn’t make for pretty reading, but then neither does the report on Israel.

    Perhaps if we can put both the Israeli and Palestinian governments in the dock they would be diverted from their other activities and peace might have a chance. But more seriously I’m afraid this is all a bit of a side show and does little to get a dialogue going between both sides which is really what is needed. Both sides have more than enough abuses by the other to point and more than enough of their own to ignore – and it is perhaps worth noting that progress to peace in Ireland and South Africa came about by a conscious decision not to prosecute and to forgive (and no I didn’t say forget).

  73. resident dissident

    30 Nov, 2012 - 8:44 pm

    “Assange to RT: Entire nations intercepted online, key turned to totalitarian rule”

    I bet that isn’t rebroadcast for domestic consumption in Russia – or in China where the key has already been turned.

    BTW could I recommend Masha Gessen’s book on Putin as an antidote for fans of RT here – its strange how all those journalists/TV and radio channels that propose something different to Putin just keep disappearing.

  74. “unreconstructed climate change deniers”???

    craig, this is the very tactic used by those behind what was originally called “catastrophic manmade global warming” but which, since Climategate, can only be called “climate change”. tell me the last time you heard western MSM use the original phrase?

    there are NO sceptics nor, indeed, any people anywhere who deny “climate change”. there are debates about the degree of such changes, especially given the adjustments made to the raw temperature data, (only computer models of the close-knit team exposed in Climategate are used to claim it’s catastrophic) and about the bankers’/pollies so-called remedy of trading derivatives of carbon dioxide. even Matt Taibbi at Rolling Stone has documented that carbon trading is the hoped-for Next Big Bubble for the banksters/traders, a Bubble that would do untold damage to poorer countries.

    couldn’t we just celebrate with the Palestinians without such name-calling.

  75. Resident Dissident

    I don’t think you understand the meaning of war crime or the purpose of the UN. Human rights abuses committed by the government of a country against it’s own people do not count as war crimes. The UN is not there to interfere in the internal affairs of member states. People are executed in places like Saudi Arabia and America too, many of us are against it as are Amnesty International but they do not count as war crimes and they do not come under the remit of the United Nations.

  76. ‘But more seriously I’m afraid this is all a bit of a side show and does little to get a dialogue going between both sides which is really what is needed.’

    The real ‘side show’ for about a decade now (roughly since the Saudi peace plan was treated like a fart in a lift by Israel & the US ) has been the US led ‘peace process’, which ‘Resident Dissident’ here is extolling.

  77. Solomon’s temple? a few rocks piled on top of each other, in a, if I may say this, amateurish fashion compared to what the Egyptian dynasties next door had mastered, do not proof that there was a temple at all.

    Just as the evidence of the events at Masada could barely be evidenced, or the exodus, the badly cut and hewn stones of the wailing wall being living proof of the latter being a myth, otherwise the wailing wall would have been much more perfect.

    I think it should be taken down carefully, exposing the inside of the so called temple walls, not rough, like the outside, but smooth and elaborately decorated, as one would expect from a temple, and then, when it is proven to be another hoax of history, they can get a stonemason and reface the stones and make them fit properly.

  78. RT Crosstalk. Norman Finkelstein gets Gissin frothing at the mouth.

    Now that the Palestinians have had their international legal status upgraded at the UN, what difference will it make? What will now happen with the so-called “peace process”? Will we see an end to the illegal occupation of Palestinian lands any time soon? And, how will this UN resolution make Israel more isolated? CrossTalking with Norman Finkelstein, Raanan Gissin and Rami Almenghari.

    RT The only place where you can watch debates on this subject. Nothing like this on ZBC, Ch 4 or ITV of course.

  79. resident dissident

    30 Nov, 2012 - 11:05 pm


    I understand war crimes and human rights abuses against a states own people are different and that is why I distinguished them (see the word “other”). You do not understand the purpose of the UN – its members are required to sign up to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and members of the pledge themselves to take joint and separate action in co-operation with the Organization to take action against governments that are in violation (see Articles 55 and 56). The Charter also gives the power to the General Council to kick out persistent offenders. The UN’s powers may not be used or abused – but if you think that the UN was set up with the purpose of allowing countries to get away of abusing human rights domestically providing that they didn’t do externally then you really have no understanding as to why it was created. Go and read the Charter.

    One of the problems with much of current political discourse is that has little to say about how the UN can be made to operate effectively to achieve its objectives where it has failed somewhat pathetically in recent years.

  80. Naturally, as with the MSM in the West, dissident views in enemy countries wil be promoted – just think of the Cold War, and of Lord Palmerston, for a moment. So we will get MSM in the West extolling Russian dissidents and MSM in Russia extolling Western dissidents/dissident views. It’s all part of the usual information war.

    I agree though that in Putin’s Russia, dissident journalists and editors tend to end up six feet under. Before we get too complacent, though, our mandarins can afford to allow for a certain amount of dissent in their home countries; if it goes too far, they have other – more skilled, more subtle – ways of marginalising dissent. And among ‘our’ allies – those whom we prop up – there are many regimes as bad, or worse, than that of Putin’s Russia. None of this is new. ‘We have no friends and enemies, we have only interests’.

    Right now, Israel – in essence, a giant US military base – is occupying Palestinian land – that is the international and UN position, it is very clear. That is the primary illegality, the core injustice. The USA and Israel have absolutely no interest in achieving a settlement that involves anything less than total victory by Israel, a victory which comprises permanent annexation of the West Bank and the likely gradual marginalisation of the Palestinian population with the probability of mass expulsions as the iron fences close in ever more tightly. That has always been the relentless aim. What else would one expect? That is what will happen. Saudi Arabia does not want a Palestinian state; their rhetoric is just rhetoric. They are an ally of Israel-USA. It’s not about morality; it is simply about power. Mao was correct. He was not good, but he was right: The barrel of a gun.

  81. resident dissident

    30 Nov, 2012 - 11:15 pm

    Old Mark

    I am extolling any peace process – I don’t really care where it comes from and I don’t see much of one from the US or anywhere else at the present. Might I suggest that you put your if you are not with us you are against us mentality away.

  82. Looking forward to the prosecutions of those who incarcerate children, hold up pregnant women at roadblocks and who deliberately shoot children, aiming at the core of the family and community, the civilian society.

    Also looking forward to resolve the issues of occupied Syrian and Lebanese territories, not to speak of the Apartheid shown towards Arab Israeli’s and the restrictions on housing they are subjected to.

    Israels internal problems will bear down on hard liners, the growing rift between Likud Kadima and those who are fed up with wars, talk of war or the lack of any relationship with its neighbours, will ensure that Israel eats itself from within, the eternal hate it instils in its people will destroy the future for its children.

    I’m with Avi Shlaim on this issue, there is only one Palestine for all of its people, and in the absence of any initiatives, the international community, the UN, who granted the rights of statehood to those who fled the Holocaust, will now have to be strong and ensure that these two people who have lived together for hundreds/thousands of years, have to be made to live together, or wither away, annihilating each other with hate.

    And to the tune of Quantanamera, we sing
    ‘One Palestinia, there’s only one Palestinia…’

  83. resident dissident

    30 Nov, 2012 - 11:44 pm


    In all honesty I don’t think you are right – I think most US diplomats would like to see a two state solution, with the states at peace with each other, if they could wave a magic wand. That isn’t to say that there isn’t a voluble and influential minority within the US who still somehow think that the Palestinians can somehow be made to disappear.

  84. Take that fucking wall down and start schooling your children together, you did it once, before you allowed that mass murderer Sharon to lead your country, Israel. Cast away the yoch of Zionists who have failed to lead the nation for the sake of fascism.

  85. Donny Darko: “Olmert realised years ago that these tactics of ethnic cleansing , settling and stealing of the land and property in the end are self defeating.”

    But they are only self-defeating if enough pressure is exerted that they are not taken to their logical conclusion. If they are – if Israel is able litrally to make life impossible for the W. Bank Palestinians – then extreme Zionism wins: Israel has the whole of historic Palestine minus the Palestinians. Israel today announced 3,000 new housing units on Palestinian land – up to 30,000 more settlers, and not a squeak from Britain or Europe.

    Ethnic cleansing is a real danger here.

  86. Whatever US politician’s would like to see is not relevant, its what the people of Palestine, lets call it by its real name, say and want is relevant, despite the dependencies that exist.

    Obama has no excuse, he has no more election to win or diaspora’s to suck up to, he has shown his real face on this issue, no excuses, this is the real Obomber and he has no compulsion or interest in peace, another bought stooge for the military industrialist con/mplex.

  87. ‘I think most US diplomats would like to see a two state solution, with the states at peace with each other’

    RD- The only senior US diplomat in recent years to whom this description could truthfully be applied would be George Mitchell. The others, such as Dennis Ross & Martin Indyk, envisage instead a Palestinian ‘state’ along the lines of that proposed by Yigal Allon shortly after the 1967 war. No wonder Mitchell (who detested Ross)resigned as Special Envoy 18 months ago.

  88. ‘Israel today announced 3,000 new housing units on Palestinian land – up to 30,000 more settlers, and not a squeak from Britain or Europe.’

    Precisely. The ‘Quartet’, with T. Blair in the driving seat, scarcely pretend they are ‘honest brokers’ any more.

  89. I’m inclined to forgive many of the abstentions and votes against from very small countries – who make up most of the no votes and a lot of the abstainers. Very small countries are very vulnerable to sanctions or aid cuts from very large countries such as the US.

    Understandable also in the case of a lot of the former Soviet states, especially ones bordering Russia – they (justifiably) fear Russia and so follow the US lead in foreign policy to have a powerful ally to protect them.

  90. No doubt they will be very relieved at my inclination to forgive them as i am so massively powerful and influential in world politics 😉

  91. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    1 Dec, 2012 - 12:49 am

    I tend to agree with you, Duncan. But I think foreign aid (as Susan Rice already dropped the defunding bomb on Palestine) is the motivator. Maybe they should look toward independent economics, rather than the extortion welfare from the US. They are public servants, after all, who make these decisions, and they owe that service and should exercise the courage of their convictions. Easy for me to say…..

  92. 1948 UN recognition of Israel was unequivocaly conditional on right of return of all displaced Palestinian refugees. As that condition was never fulfilled, there is still yet no Israel.

  93. Seeing Canada on the roll call of shame saddens me. Canda is another country which has a fine tradition of social democratic Governments, and is a country – like the US itself – with many progressive elements. But it’s now just another country whose executive has been taken over – ponerologized, one might say – by neoliberals. See also: the UK, Australia, France, Sweden, and others.

    The first thing to say here is: this is not an accident. I’ll give you an example. Where I work (Oz), a staffer was telling me how she and her colleagues met people from the FBI. I recall thinking how odd this was, that she would meet with the FBI, in Australia. It was a small thing, but it was striking how routine this was, how little she thought about it. The FBI are homeland security in the US, and their presence in Australia is, if you think about it, rather strange. The US aren’t our ‘friend’, they are business partners who are not – not yet – thinking about invading us. That’s it. I do wish more people understood this. But the softening up, the propaganda, it all works.

    As to Assange, we are wasting our breath. It’s now personal, and ideological; a strange subversion of the ‘personal is the political’. People hate Assange, and they aren’t open to reason. They’ll get him, and lie, and manipulate, ruin careers, blackmail judges, do what it takes to ensure he’s destroyed. Rape charge? He’s lucky they haven’t ‘found’ indecent images of donkeys on his laptop – – and maybe they will. I can just see the ‘Assange Beast Lover’ headlines. Nothing would surprise me.

  94. Isn’t building on occupied land a violation of International Law, and can Palestine not appeal against this, and seek substantial damages?

  95. See this strident BBC World Service woman Zeinab Badawi speaking for the US torture system in this video with Julian Assange. She insists on repeating the words of the ‘top Pentagon lawyer, Jay Johnson’ that Bradley Manning was not subjected to torture and no ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ were used on him. How appalling that the BBC are defending US atrocities like this. What next Ms Badawi? Gitmo is a health spa?

    30 November 2012 Last updated at 23:27
    Wikileaks suspect Bradley Manning admits making noose

  96. I meant “now” instead of “not” in the last post. Don’t usually post follow-ups on my own typos, but that single character lost my entire point. Now that things have changed, and Palestine is now actually recognised as a state of sorts, can these “settler” land-grabbing Nazis, not now be subjected to the law?

  97. Julian Assange built a small organization to defy the world’s only super-power. Not only that but he was wildly successful in his efforts. For that he deserves our everlasting support.

    But to imagine that he personally could survive seems unrealistic. He has the British, Swedish and US governments after his scalp. I would think that this is just too much for one person. It will be a testament to his influence if the US is forced to overthrow the current government of Ecuador in order to get his scalp. But thanks to you Brits, they will likely succeed.

  98. Inma Santos

    1 Dec, 2012 - 9:22 am

    Is William Hague committing treason, having tendered out British foreign policy to Israel?

    Will Hague get a lucrative directorship at the Jewish bank Goldman Sachs, for his services to Israel while he should have been protecting our British interests at the Foregn and Commonwealth Office?

    Is Hague a domestic enemy?

  99. @ Duncan, thanks for the morning wake up laugh, totally agree with you, everyone should recognise your leadership potential by sending you a bottle of finest single malt, immediately…
    @Inma Santos, bon dia, maybe Hague and his consort Osborne have already paid up in advance, by appointing an ex Goldmann sachs CEOP to run the bank of England for the next 8, yes eight, full years.

    One wonders what they planning during that period and whether the economy will improve through anything else than arms sales. he was closely involved in helping the US during the slump by buying mortgages and does not strike me as a man who could tackle off shoring without thinking of his erstwhile brethren first.
    Zerohedge calls his appointment ‘the last piece in a puzzle’, maybe that’s what JA was hinting at when he gave that interview to RT, an exposure of banks and their clients, a behind the scenes look at who is using these crook repositories for their nest eggs/QE/arms deals…

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