Uzbek Cotton Slavery Campaign

by craig on January 16, 2013 3:07 pm in Uncategorized

I am delighted that a new canpaign has started today against the state enforced child slavery in the uzbek cotton industry, especially as this campaign originates in Germany, where a significant portion of society appears to have finally woken up to the reality of the German government’s appalling complicity in the Nazi style regime and atrocities of Karimov.

However in the UK it remains the case that since the coalition government came to power, there has not been one single government statement on the human rights atrocities in Uzbekistan or – even more damning of our sham democracy – one single statement or question from New Labour.

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  1. Craig, why on earth should you expect any statement or condemnation from New Labour? Their policy vis à vis Uzbekistan was no different from that of the current government.

  2. Uzbek in the UK

    16 Jan, 2013 - 4:09 pm

    Since Soviets official propaganda call cotton – white gold. However; for millions of Uzbekistanies cotton is slavery. Karimov’s regime treat cotton pickers worse than southern plantation owners treated their slaves in Alabama and elsewhere in American colonies in 17 and 18 centuries. Cotton pickers in Uzbekistan today are provided the worst of the food (if they are lucky), the worst of the accommodation with virtually no sanitary conditions. In addition chemicals are sprayed while some 12-14 years old pick cotton on the fields.

    In 2012 cotton campaign was particularly ruthless. Some say it was due to the internal rivalry between karimov’s inner circle where prime minister Shafkat Mirziyaev (who is responsible for cotton picking campaign) is fighting for karimov’s blessing against more influential and more intelligent (at least in his own opinion) finance minister Rustam Azimov. Mirziyaev in order to improve his reputation in karimov’s eyes ordered all public and private organisations as well as schools, colleges, universities and hospitals to arrange “volunteers” or face fearsome prosecution. Police was ordered to watch cotton pickers and not allow anyone to leave cotton fields until dusk. Some sources suggest that around 15 people were either beaten to death or died as the result of forced cotton picking and some 50 women (some under teenage) were raped by police.

    Another (happier) side of this story is that dozens of high stationed officials and karimov’s own family made another generous replenishment of their multibillion finances. Where else money would come from for gulnara karimova to pay for gerard depardieu’s photosession.

  3. excellent video very simply done, thank you for highlighting the appalling circumstances again and yes, our party politicians are complicit in silence, damn them.

  4. FYI:-

    H&M have been targetted over this issue before with demonstrations at their fashion shows and organised boycotts in the US.

    According to HRW Uzbekistan has escaped censure by US and EU governments because it’s an important route for military supplies going to Afghanistan.

  5. And for supplies of a different kind coming out. Oh yes and then there’s its rather splendid torture facilities, available to certain preferred customers.

  6. Uzbek in the UK

    16 Jan, 2013 - 4:36 pm


    It is also because Uzbekistan is located between China, Russia and Middle East and close to Caspian Sea newly discovered hydrocarbon richness. It is also because president karimov is so called pro-westener despite his appetite for torture and absolute power (well there were many like him around the world during Cold War). It is also because karimov insures that lion share of his and his inner circle revenue enrich some very powerful financial institutions in both Wall Street and London. It is also because karimov insures that so called radical Islamists are kept underground which makes everyone (Russia, China, West, his neighbour dictators) happy.

    So there are these above reasons too.

  7. The H&M Board. All Swedish?

    Uzbekistan is not mentioned anywhere as far as I can see even in the link to the BCI initiative.

    They claim this on their website ‘We are the biggest user of organic cotton in the world.’


  8. “Nobody is shying away from having the tough conversation,” she added. “That said, we also have other interests and things that we need to protect in our relationship with Uzbekistan.”

    “WASHINGTON — The United States has temporarily waived a ban on providing military assistance to Uzbekistan because of the country’s crucial role in transiting supplies to forces in Afghanistan, according to U.S. officials.”

    “At a briefing for reporters, Nuland said that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had spoken “very frankly” during a visit to Uzbekistan last fall to Uzbek President Islam Karimov about U.S. support for human rights and the desire to see reforms by Tashkent. Clinton also raised “individual cases” that Washington is particularly concerned about, Nuland said.”

  9. Some people will do absolutely anything for money. Lilley was a major figure in the Thatcher government. He’s also to be found dissing the idea of man made global warming.

    As co-chair of the Uzbek-British Trade and Industry Council he ought to be facing some very public questions. This outfit is also British government sponsored, so they don’t care either.

    “Peter Lilley, the Conservative MP for Hitchen and Harpenden, promoted Uzbekistan’s cotton industry by inviting companies to an international cotton fair held in the Uzbek capital Tashkent last autumn.”

  10. There’s always a minor royal hobnobbing with these crooks and torturers. From the FCO link above. I believe HRH P Michael and his pushy wife have some other unsavoury connections.

    ‘HRH Prince Michael of Kent and Dr Booth led a delegation of UK business to Tashkent on 8-10 December 2010 for the 17th session of UBTIC.’

  11. “In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends”

    Martin Luther King, 1929-1968

    How fitting for No Labour!
    and to the tune of Bob Marley’s song ‘no women no cry’
    New Labour no cry,
    no Labour, no cry.

  12. Human rights and its derivative considerations are of concern to the State, whatever the hue of its putative goverment, only in so far as they may be of use in rallying an ever-gullible population to a particular cause du jour; nothing more, nothing less – pure Machiavelli IOW.

    Hence (by way of example) ‘plucky British islanders threatened by wicked dictatorship’ is invoked whenever the question of Falklands Sovereignty arises; whereas the similar sized population of the Chagos Islands is subjected to the most despicable torment and finally deported in careful secrecy, when the US required a depopulated Diego Garcia as a military base (subsequently named ‘Camp Justice’ BTW) – see this Wikispooks article.

    It is merely a question of importance and the supposed rights of people – especially people with brown skins who speak a funny patois – are supremely UNIMPORTANT if and when they get in the way. So long as the West requires the cooperation of Uzbekistan in pursuit of its Central Asia agenda, its people will be sorely disappointed if they hold out any hope of succour from the UK – IMHO anyway.

    The notion that we inhabit a functioning democracy in the UK – certainly in respect of foreign policy – is frankly quaint (to put it kindly) for a former Ambassador.

    OK, I know, I’m a knarled old cynic. But I do admire the persistence of people who continue to campaign on this sort of issue in the face of such overwhelming odds; honest I do. But if the biggest demonstration in UK history by far, has such a derisory effect (non-existent effect might be a better description) on the march to war in Iraq – and subsequent events, in all honesty, what hope is there?

    If that reads like a counsel of despair, I’m sorry; but its the truth and it has to be faced if an effective opposition/alternative to current escalating insanities is ever to gain traction.

  13. ‘Aitkenhead had previously “profiled” Alistair Darling, the Chancellor who presided over the worst financial collapse in memory. Greeted as “old friends” by Darling and his “gregarious” wife Maggie “who cooks and makes tea and supper while Darling lights the fire”, Aitkenhead effused over “a highly effective minister …he seems almost too straightforward, even high-minded, for the low cunning of political warfare.”

    The judges were asked to compare and contrast such moments of journalistic ecstasy with the same writer’s profile of Julian Assange on 7 December. Assange answered her questions methodically, providing her with a lot of information about the state’s abuse of technology and mass surveillance. “There is no debate that Assange knows more about this subject than almost anyone alive,” she wrote. No matter. Rather than someone who had exposed more state criminality than any journalist, he was described as “someone convalescing after a breakdown”: a mentally ill figure she likened to “Miss Havisham”. Unlike the alluring, electrifying, twice disgraced Mandelson, and the high-minded, disastrous Chancellor, Assange had a “messianic grandiosity”. No evidence was offered. The Gold Shammy was within her grasp.’

    John Pilger in good form on the ‘Shammies’.

  14. campaign with m

  15. @ wickispooks

    Can we say confidently how this is going to pan out.

    A Machivellian undoing pressumably, it seems our friends with a common purpose have all the answers.

    As it is what forces that drive ignorance can easily come undone and hopefuly a positive human spirit will follow and bring peace and prosperity.

  16. ”Swedish Telekom Graft Probe Makes Twist Toward Karimova
    By Joanna Lillis”
    ”TASHKENT, Jan 16 2013 (EurasiaNet) – Newly released documents appear to make a connection between executives from a Swedish company accused of bribing its way into Uzbekistan’s telecoms market and Gulnara Karimova, the daughter of the country’s strongman, Islam Karimov.”



  17. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    17 Jan, 2013 - 12:56 am

    I suppose i can live with polyester….

  18. A previous post from Craig in 2007 on the same subject.

    Primark are mentioned in the comments. They have just reported a 25% increase in like for like year end sales. Does anyone know what their policy is on using cotton from Uzbekistan?

  19. Germany wants their gold holdings repatriated to home soil. They have asked the French to return all of their gold, at a rate of 50 tonnes per year until all 374 metric tonnes are received.

    The French have just commenced military operations in Mali. Mali is Africa’s third largest gold producer. Mali, this past year, increased its gold production by just over 50 metric tonnes.

    Is anyone else seeing the connection here?

    I’m willing to bet that France does not have Germany’s gold and the Bundesbank has given them a few years to mine it from Mali. Yet the Mali source must be secure, hence the military must make sure the gold flows.

    Germany is getting too big for it’s boot again – sabotaging neighbouring countries economies so that they can control all of Europe, France now kowtowing to Berlin, the UK distancing itself from the mainland – seen this all before and it will end bad. On the plus side they’re being nice to some cotten pickers.

  20. I was going to put up a link to favourable articles on Uzbek cotton from the IPWR website but when I saw who the trustees are, I decided not to. There is a HQ in Washington too.

  21. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Jan, 2013 - 10:38 am


    Despite some integrity questionable trustees IWPR is considered to be more or less unbiased source of information. At least on such attention short region as Central Asia.

    As for Primark, I have not heard of them being spotted in bed with gulnara recently. They might have become more careful with their cotton supply sources but I have another issue with them. Considering the price of their goods one could easily see (or turn their blind eye) onto labour abuse. I for instance see thousands of women in countries like Bangladesh, India and China working days and nights for 2 USD per day. Considering how full of customers their shops are and their turnover I assume most turn their blind eye on these women in far away countries.

  22. Thank you Uzbek In The UK. I agree about Primark. I made the mistake of buying a pair of their espadrilles in the summer. Within two days they had fallen to pieces. I see people carrying multiple Primark shopping bags. So environmentally friendly – they are made of brown paper!

    Spot on Lemon Puffs. Not only gold. Uranium, iron ore, bauxite too.

    PS Is Obama regretting calling his second child Malia?
    Cameron has bitten off more than he can chew. National security meeting this morning on Algeria. Tomorrow attempting to appease his europhobic right wing. That hairline will be receding even faster. He will look odd when he is bald.

  23. One of the reasons the US and EU put up with and encourage a whole list of vile dictators in former Soviet republics of Central Asia is simply they are afraid of China and India getting at their vast reserves of oil and other mineral resources. Also, heaven forbid a socialist get democratically elected, or even a true Muslim.

  24. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Jan, 2013 - 11:44 am

    Bryan Hemming

    You are partially right. Denying China and India (and especially China) access to the mineral resources is one of the major reasons of western policy in Central Asia. Growing Chinese economy and especially growing Chinese middle class require more energy hence China urgently need to secure reliable sources and Central Asia could be the most reliable and certainly the closest one. Another reason of importance of Central Asia for China is Chinese paranoia with separatism. Like Russia in Eastern Europe China is keen to secure puppet regimes on its immediate western border in order to create so called cordon zone that would prevent Muslim Middle East and South Asia from causing troubles to the troubled Chinese province.

    But you did not mention Russia. Russia is still (and will be for long time to come) single most influential player in Central Asia. More than 5 million Central Asians (mostly from Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and Kyrgistan) work in Russia and whose remittances partially support local economies. Russia is the only reliable transport route for Central Asian goods to the world market. More than 9 millions Slavs (mostly of Russian origin) live in north of Kazakhstan and comprise around 45% of whole population in that country and who are loyal to Russia more than to Astana. In Russian perspective Central Asia is needed and not as a source of energy but as 1. Cordon zone 2. Power projection area 3. Bargaining chip with China and west. Russia plays major role in Central Asian politics and will have major say in post Karimov and post Nazarbaeyv power transition.

    My opinion is that not China or India but Russia is the major reason on western tolerance of brutal dictatorship. Russia would offer support to any party within Uzbekistan which will be 1. Not totally pro western 2. Non Muslim 3. Accept Russia as a major player in Central Asia 4. Will not join any anti Russian alliances. Thus western policy in Central Asia could only be counterbalancing Russia’s policy.

  25. Read somewhere Martin Luther King ” had a dream “, and Obama ” had a drone ”
    The pillage of Africa is under way.I wonder how long a stable democratic Ghana can withstand the onslaught from the so called civilised West.
    The Sahara is a treasure of the planet just as Antarctica is, but unfortunately it’s an easy target. Not much of a population, poorly armed and still pretty tribal.
    You keep hearing the military leaders talking about over stretch , I wonder when the elastic will burst ? Mineral wealth is real wealth and the people talking about a trillion $ coin and printing paper money know it.The Arab spring seems to have been a well planned invasion of a continent.

  26. lemon puffs had a bad morning so it seems.
    “Germany is getting too big for it’s boot again – sabotaging neighbouring countries economies so that they can control all of Europe, France now kowtowing to Berlin, the UK distancing itself from the mainland.”

    I know that some despise Germany for being efficient and on the ball, for investing their profits in modernising industry and for being No.3 exporter in the world, but this kind of rhetoric is what I expect to hear from UKIP/BNP supporters.

    Can you please us with the ‘sabotaging’ incidents, name a few if you like to put some horse meat to your rant, please.

    If anybody is sabotaging anyone, its Britain, whining about their rights and wants and preferences whilst sitting on the non committal fence, when they could be sitting in Brussels, constructively trying to negotiate our interests and getting the EU our of this rut.
    I’m not happy with the status quo, I want Commissioners elected by us all, not appointed, see audited returns once/year, stop accession to the EU until countries are ready to join.

    Your comment could have come from the mouth of a Greek fascists.

  27. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Jan, 2013 - 12:16 pm


    Lemon has a point. Germany is naturally continental leader. And shortage (in timescale) of their imperial record of abuse is more to do with France restraining German unification in 18- early 19 centuries than with Germans being less slave thirsty. Like every idea born in capitalism EU benefits those better off. And Germany is the one that is the best off in this Union. I am not anti-EU person but it is neither democratic nor mutually beneficial. Ask those late joiners.

  28. Nevermind, nice to see you’ve learned from the BBC to always put the the UKIP/BNP together.

    Agreed about sitting on the fence though – what’s needed is a hard commitment, an In/Out referendum. Do you object to that?

  29. Uzbek in the UK, Germany has to play by the same rules that have been established for all, by all.
    Not many people in this country blaring on about human rights and wanting to opt out have a clue about the history.
    I bet not one on here could name a EU commissioner, not Barrosso or Ms Ashton, without googling, the information deficit established by the MSM in this country is so bad it stinks of sabotaging the EU.

    Igf German is successful and people want to buy their goods, despite the cheap as chips wares from China, then this speaks for itself.

    Reunification was a massive financial strain for West Germany then, a wholesale rout of existing industries, renewal of infrastructure, coping with the resulting unemployment, not to speak of the increasing influx of workers from other EU countries wanting to work in Germany.

    Germany record of Imperial abuse is as bad as that of Britain, although Britain has never stopped dishing it out, with or without an empire to support its flagging economy, now in a triple dip recession.

    Ms Merkel is most likely getting re elected, however much people here would like to see socialists taking over. As for the course of the EU’s future and US endearment to it, for the obvious self serving reasons, its all about using Britain as their economical aircraft carrier, it will be bleak for Greece and others who had decades of support and financial help.

    Maybe you would like to see Germany leave the EU, say sod you, and fulfil your premonitions, then we could talk up another war here, the MSM would love it, its their favourite subject.

    If in doubt, blame a Kraut!

  30. Ha! According to Nevermind, people not knowing the identities of the external, unelected bureaucrats in charge of an unaccountable organization is because…. .. the anti-EU MSM is conspiring to sabotage the EU!


  31. Nevermind – “Germany record of Imperial abuse is as bad as that of Britain”. Nice try, Nevermind, but Germany’s is a lot worse, especially considering size and longevity.

  32. Is this Algeria thing completely bollox? It certainly seems so.

  33. Uzbek in the UK

    17 Jan, 2013 - 1:50 pm


    I am not saying that EU is altogether bad idea. I am just saying that Lemon has a point in his rant. Germany is capitalist economy. Following basics of economics (and ignoring Marxism) 3 things are needed for successful economy. 1. Markets 2. Resources 3. Investments

    Germany seems to have no problem with 3. In order to secure 1 and 2 Germany could either go WWIII or could hold on to EU. No one could argue that German goods are of better quality and German production is more energy efficient and thus cost effective but Germany still need secured market and resources to secure its economic development.

    In the last 70 years US has had significant present in Europe which itself was a theatre of possible WWIII. But with recent development in East Asia US is shifting its priority and vacuum in Europe will be filled with next in kin which as it happen to be Germany.

    Yes, Germany plays by the rules. But rules have been changing and they have been and will be changing to suit those who benefit from EU most which is as said earlier is Germany. So, options are 1. Play by the rules which benefit Germany the most 2. Leave EU 3. Change EU (but this one is of undoable quality).

  34. @ Giles My use of the word sabotaging merely shadowed lemon’ puffs reference to it. You would not possibly deny that the MSM has indulged in an unbiased information flow with regards to the workings of the EU, it has left people in the dark something rotten, and it shows, every day.

    It might be hard to realise that the weekly vagaries of WW2 articles in the media making out it was the biggest thing ever to hit Britain has anything to do with truth, but it all helps to keep a hun in his place does it not?

    What would they print if South Africa dared to annually remember the battle of Spion Kop? which had Churchill’s hands all over it? Would that be shrugged off as Boer talk? Talking up supremacists abroad, when one’s own country is flush with them is rather stupid is it not?

    Listening to N. Farrage, who received millions in wages from the EU and never supported anything, a wrecker par excellence, and his lack of vision, he dare not paint a picture as to what Britain’s agricultural community would look like without EU subsidies, or what would happen if our EU markets, travelling there and much more are subjected to an extra tax, a maverick who preys on the Tory splits, trying to ‘attract’ membership away from them.

  35. Thank-you Uzbek for consolidating Craig’s exposure of the horrifying state enforced child slavery in the uzbek cotton industry.

    The Uzbek government promises America and Britain it will reform, but does nothing. We realise Obama has placed the needs of 100,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan over the needs of Uzbek dissidents, survivors of the massacre in 2005, they remain restrained yet seething inside.

    America waived human rights restrictions on military aid to Uzbekistan while Karimov profits handsomely from US military contracts. It is crystal clear American and British administrations are never honest about what they are doing when their own security and financial interests are at stake.

    Karimov should be called by the tyrant that is his name and the Uzbek radicals will not forget these atrocities. Their time will come.

  36. Wickispooks, at 7.16 pm yesterday. That is a great article about the Chagos Islands and the despicable thing we British did to the Islanders. I post it everywhere as a testimony against modern imperialism.

  37. Nevermind,

    First up, do you support an In/Out referendum, yes or no?

    I’d say the MSM is more pro- than anti-EU. Interestingly, it tends to be commented on less in the pro-EU media such as the Guardian and BBC, and more in papers such as the Telegraph. In fact, Telegraph readers are, for the most part, highly informed about the EU and consider it a major, if not the major, political issue in Britain. The liveliest debate is to be found on such sites which are sceptical about our membership. You might say readers have been fed dodgy information, but I’d say they are some of the few who have bothered to research what a rotten, wasteful, corrupt and unnecessary organization it is. All of them could, of course, answer your earlier test about naming the Commisioner and would, indeed, wonder why you are asking such an obvious question. The exists a healthy and democratic distrust of the EU in this country, while its supporters tend to remain quiet or make vague assertions about how there have been no wars between EU members, or how those against it are anti-European little Englanders, and other claims that don’t really stand up to scrutiny. Otherwise they devote their time to finding ever more ingenious ways of denying the British people a referendum. It’s also interesting, given your first paragraph, how little discussion there is of the EU on this site.

    The proliferation of WW2 articles, films, documentaries, etc., is due to it being such excellent subject material. Most people have at least a basic understanding of the history and it fascinates them. I inderstand it’s not much fun to be on the losing side, and you’ve a heavy burden to bear when your country gassed 6 million Jews, but hey, it’s cracking entertainment and very few people hold a grudge against the Germans. Certainly, it is one of my favourite places to travel. It has absolutely nothing to do with “keeping the hun in his place”.

    I’m not denying that there were shameful episodes during the British Empire, as there are in all empires, but your attempt at claiming parity with British crimes is, if I might say, a typically German thing to do, of the “Ah, but you Englanders invented the concentration camp” school of denial. Germany managed far worse, in far fewer places, in a far shorter time, than Britian.

    Farrage’s party receives that money, not Farrage. Personally I think he’s a bit of a spiv, and the UKIP a one-man band, but at least he speaks up, unlike those faceless MEPs who clock in for 5 minutes a day to claim their allowances, and our quisling politicians who do exactly as they’re told by the EU so that they can one day join the gravy train. Our markets can get along just fine without the EU , as they have since, well, forever, and continue to do so in countries like Norway. Ever-increasing costs, additional layers of bureaucracy and directives, the creation of a superstate with political union, none of these benefit business. We can look after our own farming and our own fisheries and if someone makes a cock-up, they can be voted out of office.

    Ultimately, whatever passes for democracy on these islands is a darn sight more accountable, democratic and transparent than the EU monolith, membership of which I’m sure you will agree, even if you disagree with everything I have written, should be put to the British people in a referendum.

  38. @ Uzbek in the UK
    ‘No one could argue that German goods are of better quality and German production is more energy efficient’

    Well, I do, with the proviso that nobody is perfect and that it does not happen at all economic levels.

    For example. Germany recycles 13% of its raw material needs from waste, including I might add, modern technological methods of recycling rare earth materials vital for a less energy intensive world. It operates a cyclical resource economy.
    Compare that to shambles here. No national goals for the guaranteed uptake by industry of recycled materials, a linear policy development that ends in landfill or medieval waste burning in incinerators, operated by companies that have records of fines for polluting as long as your arm.

    To claim that Germany is on a war footing when it is us who are fighting wars on the turn of a switch, is utterly delusional.

    Those here who trust their political party minorities to do different (UEA’s motto) must realise that its these parties that shaped society and have presented us with this situation, that they have no guts to change, nor the will.

    I’m with Wikispooks on this wake up for goods sake and lets take this country back from vested interests and war mongers.

    I agree with your assumption that Russia is the real goal for the US, but you forgot to mention the now close relationship between the once erstwhile enemy China and that if worst comes to the worst, first strike talk of Chinese underground nuclear facilities, contaminating us all is bound to bring them even closer.

    If the US strikes at China, we will have ww3, regardless of what Germany does or wants. Germany has an active and lively anti war and anti nuclear movement. They can’t just send soldiers everywhere on the whim of some PM or send special forces on a jolly to Algeria, they have to vote on it in Parliament, the old notion of democracy has still some meaning in other countries you know.

  39. “Let’s take this country back”

    Agreed, but you want to give it away!

  40. Anyway, this from the GBC is hilarious:

  41. @Giles
    First up, do you support an In/Out referendum, yes or no?

    No, not without clear and unbiased information for voters or without anything to vote for.

    yes, once there is a clear picture on what to vote in or out for, without it, its a mere fart in the wind.

    Another small point, within the British political system, whatever the vote, you could never be assured that the political parties would pull their arse off the fence post.

    “I inderstand it’s not much fun to be on the losing side, and you’ve a heavy burden to bear when your country gassed 6 million Jews, but hey, it’s cracking entertainment and very few people hold a grudge against the Germans.”

    Giles, I feel no burden whatsoever, I’m not responsible for the mistakes and atrocities of my forefathers, but I do recognise that WW” is the biggest thing ever that happened to these cute isles, why else continually use it to lighten up your debates? And it is on the curriculum forever, not all true, but who cares what our little darlings learn in schools.

    ” Germany managed far worse, in far fewer places, in a far shorter time, than Britian.”

    Hmm, that is debatable and down one’s individual breadth of education, would you not agree?
    Although Germanys atrocities were fast and furious, they were in the open, not hidden and denied as the 1.8 billion Muslims that died under the Governments of the Raj, with not much being done to help them, after all Britain set up the Swadeshi national council and opted to support nationalist Hindu politicians and parties.
    I find these kind of comparison futile and shall leave it at that.

    Good o’l Nigel, he speaks out, ahhh, but what does he actually say apart from ‘lets get out of Europe’ at every election, regardless whether its a council election, for MEP or for Parliament. The money does not go to the party at all, sorry, but I set up the UK’s first Green MEP’s relations with their party and the money is not controlled by the party but by respective MEP’s, that includes all allowances. Most of that is pent on office staff, normally, but UKIP never voted FOR anything so their office staff is pretty much involved with not much more but to inform the MEP’s of when to vote against something and that’s all they ever do.

    lastly you seem to be of the impression that I’m defending the EU’s set up, created by vested interest party politicians and cocked up by them.
    Not at all, I want to see changes to it major changes and if they are not forthcoming, the EU will fall to pieces anyway.
    Now what better proposal than the EU have you got? What’s your proposal for change and how would you get sustainable regulative frameworks on all sorts of issues without cross border cooperation.?

    Finally, I apologise for treating this thread like an EU thread and shall seize forthwith contaminating it.

  42. Thank-you for this and all of your previous postings on Uzbekistan. I have finally gotten around to finding out if the vendors I purchase cotton products from refuse to buy from Uzbek sources and will be communicating with my MP about Canada’s positions and actions on Uzbekistan. This is all so depressing.

  43. The Chagos scourge and wretchedness makes my blood boil John Goss – This from ‘History commons’ demonstrates the nefarious, heinous, barbaric and heartless nature of the British establishment and their military zombies:

    “With the arrival of the first Americans at Diego Garcia, the largest atoll of the Chagos Archipelago, the island’s remaining residents are told they must leave. [BBC, 11/3/2000; CBS NEWS, 6/13/2003; CNN, 6/18/2003]

    Recalling the massive forced relocation, Marcel Moulinie, the manager of a coconut plantation on the island, tells CBS 60 minutes in 2003 that he was ordered to ship the people out. “Total evacuation. They wanted no indigenous people there,” Marcel Moulinie explains. “When the final time came and the ships were chartered, they weren’t allowed to take anything with them except a suitcase of their clothes. The ships were small and they could take nothing else, no furniture, nothing.”

    To make it clear to residents that there would be no compromise, Sir Bruce Greatbatch, governor of the Seychelles, orders the killing of the Chagossians’ pets, which are rounded up into a furnace and gassed with exhaust fumes from American military vehicles. [CBS NEWS, 6/13/2003; CNN, 6/18/2003; ZNET, 10/22/2004] “They put the dogs in a furnace where the people worked,” Lisette Talatte, a Chagossian, will later tell investigative journalist John Pilger. [1500 pet animals killed]

    “[W]hen their dogs were taken away in front of them our children screamed and cried.” [ZNET, 10/22/2004] Marie Therese Mein, another Chagossian, later says US officials threatened to bomb them if they did not leave. [SELF-DETERMINATION NEWS, 1/28/2002; ZNET, 10/22/2004] And the Washington Post interviews one man in 1975 who says he was told by an American official, “If you don’t leave you won’t be fed any longer.” [WASHINGTON POST, 9/9/1975]

    The Chagossians are first shipped to the nearby islands of Peros Banhos and Salomon and then 1,200 miles away to Mauritius and the Seychelles. [BBC, 11/3/2000; CBS NEWS, 6/13/2003; CNN, 6/18/2003]

    Before the eviction, the Chagossians were employed, grew their own fruit and vegetables, raised poultry and ducks, and fished. [SUNDAY TIMES (LONDON), 9/21/1975; SELF-DETERMINATION NEWS, 1/28/2002; BRITISH ROYAL COURTS OF JUSTICE, 10/9/2003; TRIBUNE (BAHAMAS), 11/17/2003] On the island of Diego Garcia, there was a church, a school as well as a few stores. [SUNDAY TIMES (LONDON), 9/21/1975] But now, after being removed from their homes and dumped into foreign lands without compensation or resettlement assistance, they are forced to live in poverty. [CBS NEWS, 6/13/2003; CNN, 6/18/2003]

    The uprooted Chagossians find shelter in abandoned slums, which have no water or electricity. [SUNDAY TIMES (LONDON), 9/21/1975; CHURCH TIMES, 1/7/2005] Many commit suicide during and after the eviction campaign. [ZNET, 10/22/2004] Lisette Taleti loses two of her children. [GUARDIAN, 5/12/2006] Describing the plight of the Chagossians at this time, the British High Court writes in 2003: “The Ilois [Chagossians] were experienced in working on coconut plantations but lacked other employment experience. They were largely illiterate and spoke only Creole. Some had relatives with whom they could stay for a while; some had savings from their wages; some received social security, but extreme poverty routinely marked their lives. Mauritius already itself experienced high unemployment and considerable poverty. Jobs, including very low paid domestic service, were hard to find. The Ilois were marked by their poverty and background for insults and discrimination. Their diet, when they could eat, was very different from what they were used to. They were unused to having to fend for themselves in finding jobs and accommodation and they had little enough with which to do either. The contrast with the simple island life which they had left behind could scarcely have been more marked.”

  44. Regarding my Chagos post it is easy for me to equate this atrocity to that of the Palestinian struggle; their villages scorched, the inhabitants murdered, income lacking as cultivated olive tree plantations are destroyed, an East German class dividing wall preventing community cohesion, Palestinian homes possessed by force and illegal settlements built on Palestinian land enforced at the point of a trained gun.

    When will these zombie acts be bought to book? Will two million who marched against the Iraq war enact civil disobedience perchance?

    No – we remain unaffected, apathetic and impotent in our own little worlds like paper tigers.

  45. Pot, Kettle, Black.

    Algeria failed to inform the U.K. before starting the military operation, Cameron’s spokesman, Jean-Christophe Gray, said earlier. Cameron had asked his Algerian counterpart, Abdelmalek Sellal, to tell him before any action was taken.

    Officials admitted that no contact had been made with Rome before David Cameron gave the go-ahead for the mission. Italy yesterday demanded ‘utmost clarity’ from Downing Street – with the country’s president Giorgio Napolitano describing as ‘inexplicable’ the failure to inform Rome in advance of the rescue attempt.

  46. Exactly Mark Golding, it made my blood boil too, especially since the first I had heard of it was when I read the article, which should be read in total to see what bastards the UK military employ. Incidentally I reposted it in the comments (the last comment) of my article:

    The comments do not allow URL links so I wrote: ‘If you Google “Falklands and Chagos – a tale of two islands” it should bring up a Peter Presland article of that title.’

    I mentioned too in the comment about all the islanders dogs being herded into a barn and gassed to death. My comment has a negative approval rating, as though these acts of barbarity have the approval of those who have made it their business to diss my remarks. It’s The Guardian all over.

  47. Terrible. Sad. Criminal. John Pilger has been on their case for many years but there will never be any justice for them until Little Britain stops obeying Amerika but as the West is rapidly going down, who knows what the future holds for the Islanders.

    No justice from the ECHR either in December. Note Hague was pleased with the decision.

    The island was tainted further when the evil coalition used it as a base for rendition, ie taking victims to be tortured, and at first denied. When I was a young woman, I never thought I would know of the evils that have taken place in the last three or four decades.

  48. Human Atrocities – The PNAC Catalyst for the Iraq War

    George W. Bush’s foreign policy advisory team in the year 2000 were Condoleezza Rice, Richard Armitage KCMG, Robert Blackwill, Stephen Hadley, Richard Perle, Dov S. Zakheim, Robert Zoellick, Paul Wolfowitz, and Scooter Libby. The team was named ‘The Vulcans’ after the Roman god of fire and metal-working.

    A ‘volcano’ or the opening in the earth’s crust derives it’s name from ‘Vulcano’, a volcanic island in the Aeolian islands of Italy. Vulcano originates from Vulcan.

    ‘Pyroclastic’ flow’s are a common and devastating result of some volcanic eruptions. They are fast-moving fluidized bodies of hot gas, ash and rock at very high temperature, hot enough to melt steel and turn concrete into dust.

    A thermo-nuclear device detonated at a calculated distance below bed-rock would create a cavity of evaporated and pulverised rock at >3000 degrees C that would melt anything above instantly. The hot gases would form a pyroclastic flow. Very little or no radiation would leak above ground.

    The site of a nuclear explosion is called ‘ground zero’

    Thank-you to Mr. Dimitri A. Khalezov, a former officer of the Soviet nuclear intelligence, for his analysis.

  49. Mark Golding, it was the nuclear tests in the atmosphere that caused the thinning of the ozone layer over the South Pacific, Australasia and which is growing over Antarctica. Billy Murray McCormac was responsible for these experiments. It is not surprising therefore that his son, also Billy McCormac, is a top executive of Prime PR in Sweden, the company which with the support of Karl Rove is responsible for concocting the case against Julian Assange.

  50. A worrying report about American imperialism today. An American judge has ruled that Russia must hand over documents which have never left Russia and have no connection to America to an organisation in America.

    I’ll give links to both the American and Russian versions as they differ in detail.

    Whichever is right it means that America considers their domestic law applies to the entire world and that an American judge has higher authority than a sovereign state.

  51. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 11:52 am


    Generally American imperialism is a worrying thing but in this particular case it is easy to speculate when it is taken out of the context.

    This refers to the document on Judaism collected by Russian Jews within several hundred years. You should be aware of anti-Semitic waves in both Czarist and Soviet Russia. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced to flee Russia leaving everything they owned behind. In addition to this many properties of both Jews and others in Russia were made property of state. Hundreds of thousand pieces of art and jewellery moved from private owners to state coffins some were traded in exchange for hard cash in the early days of Soviet republic. Some Jews of the community where these particular documents were collected are now laying claims on what their community collected and owned until it was taken by the state. Whether or not they are right it is up to the angel you look at history. Russia itself for instance heavily robbed Eastern Europe and Germany in particular after WWII blaming them for disastrous distractions and loss of Russian lives during the war. Dozens of factories were moved from Germany to Russia laying foundation to some flagship soviet industries such as watch or TV making.

    In Baltic states for instance properties were returned to the private owners after the fall of soviet system. Some Estoniyans, Latviyans and Luthvanians who left their countries after Stalin’s invasion were able to get back properties owned by them or their parents before the invasion.

    I realise it might be difficult to understand this here where developments like this have taken place some 500 years ago.

  52. Fred, not the news story of the day but if these religious books were so important to the US Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic group they should have taken them with them when they chose to live in the land of Satan. The important message as you say is that the US sees itself as the judicial system of the world. The US is not even a signatory to the ICC but one day, God-willing, its leaders will end up there on charges of torture, mass-murder, wrongful imprisonment, theft and all the other crimes perpetrated by the so-called ‘land of the free’ on the rest of the world.

  53. Uzbek, there is a difference between returning to property to having it returned abroad to you.

  54. Mark G 1:22am

    I’m not sure what to make of Dimitri Khalezov. I had contact with him a couple of years ago around the time of the Viktor Bout arrest and subsequent rendition to the US from Thailand where they were both resident.

    With his approval, I tidied up a long essay of his from its heavily Russian-compromised English grammar version and put it up on Wikispooks here – FWIW.

    That’s not an endorsement BTW. I have become pretty clear in my own mind about the over-arching, essentially false-flag nature of 9/11 and WHY it happened. Which makes the detail of precisely HOW it was pulled off, of waning interest. I therefore remain studiously agnostic about pretty much any and every ‘HOW’ theory unless and until it can be definitively ruled out without recourse to emotion and allegations of absurdity/credulity. Cass Sunstein-like, there are masses of disinfo out there too, but also some dedicated researchers who keep turning up real corroborating gems.

    There are some interesting pictures of clearly molten and re-solidified rock in the demolished tower foundation excavations which I’ve never seen adequate explanation for. Can’t find a link right now but they are among the official archive somewhere.

  55. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 12:06 pm

    John Goss

    I take it that you never been forced to leave the place you were born in or lived for the long time and established connection with. The very necessity to live such place speaks for itself. People are not usually given much time to pack their luggage and if they manage to do it they are usually robbed on their way. It was not like you boarded a plane and flew from London to Paris first class. It was probably sensible to live these documents there or they have been taken by the state beforehand.

    In 1918-1919 people were shot for hiding sack of wheat to have something to each in horrible Russian winter.

  56. Uzbeck In The UK.

    I was trying not to comment on the rights and wrongs of the case, that’s not for me to decide. I posted links to both sides of the story so as not to show favour.

    It is a matter for Russian law or international law to decide, the fact that America considers they have the right to decide that is the worrying part and if you say they have the authority in this case then you are saying they have the authority in every case.

  57. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 12:33 pm

    John Goss,

    I agree on the difference but again you need to know Russia in order to understand the context. 21 years have passed since end of communism and monopoly on public ownership and yet still rights on private property have not been set properly. People can own the building but not the land on which the building stands. It opens up whole way of measures for the state to use its force when needed or to blackmail those private owners.

    Think of these for instance. Millions of people in 1930th -1940th were forced to work in Gulag system to build backbone of soviet heavy industries, millions of them died of cold and malnutrition. And yet after 1991 many factories were privatised by few (mostly former party leaders or former state appointed factory managers) for pennies. New class of New Russians (Oligarchs) was born. Was this fair?

    Or about this. Huge mass of land just outside of Moscow belonged to a family of well established Russian traders before 1917 October revolution. Since then it was nationalised and stayed mostly undeveloped for over 70 years. Today it is being sold piece by piece by government (by proxy some corrupt government officials) for over 5.000 USD for square metre. Tomorrow there is a good chance that the same land can be nationalised AGAIN and sold to another private owner AGAIN. Hence NO need for the Russian government to put any clarity in rights of private ownership.

  58. John Goss

    The rights and wrongs don’t concern me.

    If this continues we are going to get people who have obviously lost their marbles taking the British Museum to an American court. Whatever the outcome it means that everyone in Britain has lost their freedom and become American subjects, subject to American law.

  59. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 12:38 pm


    The irony is that that there is no such thing as Russian LAW as you know it. Russian Law is what Putin and his gang need or want. Similar to Uzbekistan in Russia no security is guaranteed to any private ownership and investment. In very rare cases when legal measure will not work illegal measure are employed (mafia is sent to do government’s business).

  60. Uzbek In The UK

    I help someone who has a blog trying to fight injustice in the American legal system, believe me, the Russian system can’t be any worse.

    But that is beside the point, as how bad the Russian legal system may be it is the one that applies, if you say America has jurisdiction in this case you say they have jurisdiction over all of us in every case.

  61. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 1:14 pm


    I agree no justice system is perfect but that of former USSR is possibly the worst one. Only people like Gulnara Karimova and similar to her who have access to state apparatus will have upper hand ALWAYS in legal systems like this. US and British Law might not be perfect but at least you can argue and sometimes win arguments in court and what is even more important is that the order of the court is followed. The cases I know of can be of good example both here in Russia and in Uzbekistan.

    It is true that US legal system is not and does not have to be global and US legal authority is not and must not be global but in this particular case my heart lies with them. Russian law is so corrupt and so bendy that I have no trust in it.

    It might be good argument in support of universal law. But then it is also something that is quite impossible to achieve in the world of national states where some of which are run by corrupt authorities.

  62. “It might be good argument in support of universal law. But then it is also something that is quite impossible to achieve in the world of national states where some of which are run by corrupt authorities.”

    We had a chance of universal law through the United Nations, America’s “might makes right” attitude saw an end to it. I defy anyone to look at the list of American vetoes of UN resolutions and tell me America has any regard whatsoever for justice or democracy.

    America ruined any chance of a world wide justice system and now they are declaring themselves dictators to the world.

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of any particular case America does not have the right to judge it.

  63. “I take it that you never been forced to leave the place you were born in or lived for the long time and established connection with.”

    Uzbek, you’re right, I was not forced to leave, but when I sold up my house and cycled half round the world, I gave much away, sold much cheap and took perfectly good property to the tip because I had to dispose of it somehow. I’m starting to build up possessions again now, probably more than what is good for me. There is something liberating in getting rid of the shackles that bind you to one spot. The difference of course is that it was my decision to part with my possessions.

    The few things I took with me were largely light and of sentimental value, but it was not possible to protect everything from theft, and there were several blatant attempts to make more bulky things fall off the back of my bike. I carried a computer and tent. One of the precious things that went missing was a silver and enamel darts’ medallion my father won in 1941 in the Rotherham individual darts’ championship. He had it inscribed with my mother’s name. Such a memento is irreplaceable, not for its intrinsic value, but because it was a little piece of family history that will mean nothing to future generations or even the person who stole it from me, but because it meant something because I had inherited it from my late parents. When things are gone they are gone.

    I was on a ‘paper-trail’ following some of the routes by which the papermaking process came to England. The earliest known paper-mill in England was operating in 1495 which in Europe was late. My journey was taking me to Samarkand, because I have an interest in the hand-made paper industry, and papermaking came into the west via the Silk Road. I only got as far as the Azerbaijan border where I was waylaid by a stomach-bug, possibly picked up in Tbilisi, unless it was due to cold from the driving sleet between Tbilisi and the border, with no cafes or food-shops en route. One day, if I can get fit again, I should like to complete my journey to Samarkand by bike.

    No, I have never been forced to leave my home, but for those it happens to I am sure it must be tragic. You will never hear me bigging up the US judicial system, or the UK judicial system, and particularly not that of Uzbekistan. Nearly 800 prisoners, some are still there and all are Muslims, have been incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay in the west’s war on Islam. Only one has been tried and convicted. Six have died there. Adnam Latif died in September last year aged only 36 having spent a third of his life there. Theresa May has sent British subjects Babar Ahmad and Talha Ahsan and three others to face solitary confinement in US supermax prisons, in cells constructed of 75.5 square foot of concrete with a three inch window, thin mattress, and only one hour of exercise a day. If success can be based on conviction these supermax prisons are successful. According to John Pilger 98% of detainees ‘plea bargain’ to get a lighter sentence. That means they confess to something they did not do because of the daily torture. No I don’t big up the US.

    Possessions can weigh you down. At least we have our freedom. So does the Chabad-Lubavitch Hasidic group. Be thankful for that freedom. And fight for those who have had their freedom taken away from them. It is a precious commodity, worth much more than any books.

  64. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 2:30 pm


    Please do not even start me on UN.

    Firstly be aware that UN despite sounding as United Nations and uniting representatives of most of the nations in one large building does not actually represent those nations. It was initially created with sole purpose as to divide the world between 5 great powers within 2 superpower camps. Those 5 powers until now have privileged rights and all others reduced to the 2 second class status. The whole point of UN during cold war was to be an arena where 2 conflicting superpowers could speak to each other and rely on formal (but mostly unnecessary) support from the rest.

    After end of cold war UN lost its primal purpose. There were no longer 2 camps. There was one camp and one system dominated the world. So the nation dominated in this dominated system decided to drop whole 2 camps idea.

    And even during cold ward in the best UN years it never represented any small or medium nation. The problem is that it had no authority on its own. Whole authority was in hands of selected 5. All others needed to balance their interests within the interests of those selected 5.

    Is this universal justice you could rely on?

    My view of the universal justice is that which represents all and represents them equal. But justice as you might know needs to be enforced or otherwise it will not work. How could you enforce justice without putting it at risk of it being dominated by one or few parties.

  65. “If success can be based on conviction these supermax prisons are successful.”

    In America success is measured by how much money something makes, they are remarkably successful.

    Like the privately owned children’s homes that pay judges and prosecutors to drag crying screaming children away from their parents.

  66. “Is this universal justice you could rely on?”

    We had a chance, we had the opportunity, we could have brought civilization to the world. The psychopaths in charge wouldn’t let it happen.

    Which is all the more reason not to trust them now.

  67. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 2:56 pm

    John Goss,

    You said it. Nobody forced you to flee. You decided to sell your possessions but some of us (or most) have families, relatives and attached to them and to the place they live in. And when out of the blue you face dilemma to leave this all and escape the least you can think of is packing everything accurately and making sure nothing is left. Especially if you are not aware of where your joinery will take you and who you meet on your way. It is dramatic. Possessions you leave behind still remain yours (at heart) despite physically being taken by others. It is dramatic too.

    I agree that freedoms is the most precious thing. But it cannot be obtained all over the world overnight. It has to be earned, fought for and sometimes even bought.

    US legal system and especially that of Guantanamo is horrible thing. Something like this has been happening in Russia and its colonies over the centuries. And if corrupt American legal system does try to bring some clarity to corrupt Russian legal system I support it. I would have done the same if it was vice versa. I support everything that brings trouble to those who abuse freedom.

  68. It’s not just the legal system of the US that is in need of reform. It is its wanton wars on the Middle East and North Africa and soon probably Central Africa together with its supercilious belief in being always right even when it is clearly in the wrong, and the UK’s complicity in this.

  69. Can anyone in Central London find out how Barbara Tucker is? In these sub zero temperatures, she must be in a bad state especially without food and drink. Are Boris Johnson, Cameron and the Met going to have her death on their hands?

    These are the latest reports I can find and they are a fortnight old.

  70. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 3:30 pm

    Manifest Destiny manifests itself in US foreign policy since its inception. But it seems that the world is moving towards bipolarity again. So American dominance is living its last years. Still arguably but it was much smoother than the era of European balance of power politics.

  71. “These are the latest reports I can find and they are a fortnight old.”

    Here you go Mary, a report out today.

  72. Thanks Fred. Poor soul and so brave. I can only hope she gets some cover and blankets and survives. It is hard and uncomfortable to sit in the (relative) warm and write about her predicament.

  73. Wikispooks,

    I have contacted Dimitri using his PGP key. I have asked him to kindly furnish more details of the apparent demise of his friend and translator Vadim Alexandrovski who may have been murdered.

    An insight into the background of Dimitri can be gained here:!_10-Feb-2011_Gordon_Duff_interviews_Dimitri_Khalezov_DON'T_MISS_IT!.mp3

    Dimitri had conversations with former Mossad agent Mike Harari who was part of an Israeli propaganda team tasked with formulating responses to journalists investigating the demise of the World Trade Center.

  74. Mark Golding, I’m getting a 404 error message from the link you posted at 4.43 p.m.

  75. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 4:56 pm

    John Goss

    You need to copy whole link including !.mp3 bit

  76. Uzbek in the UK

    18 Jan, 2013 - 5:04 pm


    That proves that peaceful protests on such vital issues as war and peace are ineffective even in such civilised society like this one. It might take many more casualties until blood thirsty at the top are pushed to change their policy.

    The most important here is that people (or better call them electorate) are more concerned with their day to day economics (jobs, mortgages, schools, healthcare) than with something that is taking place thousand miles away. Plus military service is not compulsory here, so only tiny minority of servicemen’s families are directly involved in conflicts. It is this in scope of biased mainstream media that creates atmosphere of ignorance with foreign policy issues.

  77. Uzbek in the UK I do not consider that this country (it cannot be called a society and the democracy is illusory) which constantly wages offensive wars for resources and domination can be called ‘civilised’. I was born in WWII when my father’s generation fought against fascism. Where are we now 70 years on?

  78. Thanks Uzbek.

  79. Thanks for the link Fred I shared it on Facebook and created a thread on the Pink’Un here were they just removed a thread entitled ‘freedom of speech’.
    Barbara must be absolutely frozen by now.

    I’m also getting the 404 error message Mark G.

  80. Mark G 4.43

    I lost contact with Dimitri about 12 months ago. Our email correspondence was encrypted but came to an abrupt end. Things moved on and I have not tried since. If you do manage to establish contact, please let me know. He has an interesting history.

    My PGP key is available on Wikispooks here

  81. Thanks Wikispooks – Here is the Dimitri link again Nevermind in condensed form:

    Anthrax used against American senators to enforce the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction Lie.

    Here Dimitri attempts to explain these long forgotten 2001 biological attacks using anthrax bacterium:

    N.B. The Ames strain of anthrax was developed in Britain at the Porton Down military establishment. Dr David Kelly who worked at Porton Down was fully aware of the ‘weapons grade’ anthrax we supplied to Saddam Hussein. Sadly that knowledge I believe ‘marked his card’ after he broke the ‘careless talk’ covenant, spoke to journalists and exposed the ‘dodgy dossier’ as the blatant lie it was.

  82. A modern-day folk-song: “Bugger the Bankers”

  83. Mark Golding, I’ve posted the ‘Anthrax Attacks’, which forms a very enlightening read, on a Dr David Kelly related site. Thanks.

  84. Which site John?

    btw Anthrax is very topical tonight if you have been watching Silent Witness. I did not see the first two parts but as a concert I was going to attend tonight was cancelled, I have been watching Part 3. Quite confusing when you don’t know what happened before!

    The title must be a play on the phrase – Truth is Stranger Than Fiction.

  85. I see from the credits that the forensic advisor is Dr Stuart Hamilton. He is the deputy chief forensic pathologust in the East Midlands Forensic Patholology Unit. A rather weird combination between BBC drama and the state forensic service? Would Dr Keith Simpson, famous for his meticulous work, have had similar involvements if he was around now?

  86. On Algeria, Hillary Clinton has been saying this –

    US Secretary of State Hilary Clinton told reporters that the “utmost care must be taken to preserve innocent life” in the handling of the crisis.

    No irony there then.

    She does not look a well woman. She had rather a greenish tinge unless it was the lighting.

  87. Excuse my typos in the previous comment on pathologists.



  88. Many of the regular commenters here believe in the rights of children and in the imperative need – duty – to protect children.

    This is evident from numerous posts in which : American drone attacks which indiscriminately kill children (and others) are, rightly, condemned; in connection with the Savile case, the sexual abuse of children has attracted much comment and the likely cover-up at different levels and in different ways has been vehemently denounced (to the point of naming the one or the other individual believed to have been involved); and the very existence of this thread and the dozens of posts it has attracted (not all O/T, of course)signals concern with the children of Uzbekistan.

    Curious, therefore, that no-one has felt impelled to mention (how about you, Mary, who likes mentioning so many faits divers..?), never mind condemn, the phenomenon of the sexual grooming and abuse of young, vulnerable girls by gangs of Asians, the latest of which is cureently standing trail at the Old Bailey for their activities in Oxford.

    I know that this particular offence isn’t one carried out by the Americans, or the great and the good on the UK, or for that matter by individuals with 182 company directorships, but would anyone nevertheless like to join me in expressing revulsion at the activities of these Asian gangs? Would anyone, I wonder, share my view that the perpetrators should, after they have served their sentences, be deported to the country(countries) whence they or their forefathers came so that they could practice their bestial predilections on young girls of their own country and religion?

  89. Mary, at 15h14 today, says that the UK cannot be considered a civilised country.

    In order for me and others to better evaluate her point of view, could Mary please name a country or two which she does consider civilised?

    Thanks in advance.

  90. Hi Craig,

    After reading your post, I felt I had to help spread the word…I hope you don’t mind. I wrote the following post after watching both video’s.

  91. sorry, Mary at 17h14 today.

  92. Would anyone, I wonder, share my view that the perpetrators should, after they have served their sentences, be deported to the country(countries) whence they or their forefathers came so that they could practice their bestial predilections on young girls of their own country and religion?

    Let me get this straight. You’d prefer it if sex-offenders (who happen to be Asian) are abusing young girls in their “forefathers” country rather than being kept under watch in the UK? Certainly fits with your previous sadistic tastes. Did you get a sexual thrill out of writing, “practice their bestial predilections on young girls”?

  93. Thanks for that Mark, what a tome,, I’ve started so I shall finish.
    Cameron is in a spin dryer. having cancelled his speech, they are still working on it, for the sake of unaccounted ongoing situations, he’s a bit of a chicken, me thinks, flustering when it counts.
    Hollande is using an incident, long planned, going by some Quilliam foundation ex terrorist’s statement, called Benaton, situated between Libya and Algeria, hundred of miles away from Mali, as his impetus to strike Mali’s AQM.

    Listening to Clinton’s babe tonight, everyone is interested in Mali, very interested, it has a lot of oil, gold and other minerals so it seems, a US/western magnet par excellence, anything to get away from the business of the devils derivatives.

    Western countries are like pirates, because their financial systems are winging it, are based on a big fat zero, might and power and bang over ownership and principled diplomacy, what a fuck up! when western leaders do not understand the word sustainable, are hell bent on carrying on with their psychopathic endeavours.

    Mark G., Bryzinski’s ‘the grand chess board’ the adopted and adapted guidelines of Ramsi Yousefs Boyinka plot methods have fooled humanity and western apathetic onlookers like us, we have been hoodwinked something rotten and WE should MEET!

    Or is it too late?

  94. @ Anon : do you always answer a question with a question? Cluck! Cluck! Cluck!

    PS – don’t condemn me, condemn the child groomers and abusers! Unless you secretly approve, of course….

  95. Habbabkuk,

    When the questions are as fucking stupid as yours are. Yes.

    I note you haven’t denied being a complete arsehole recently. I’ll have to take that as evidence you clearly believe you are.

  96. wow, Anon, I seem to have hit your G-spot, haven’t I?

    PS – some advice : never accept anything as “evidence” without checking it thoroughly, it saves you from making a fool of yourself.

  97. Habbabkuk

    Direct more shit like this at Mary (and no, I don’t know her) and yes, you’ll wind me up. Oh well at least your picking on me now and not Mary.

    (how about you, Mary, who likes mentioning so many faits divers..?), never mind condemn, the phenomenon of the sexual grooming and abuse of young, vulnerable girls

    Just stop it.

    never accept anything as “evidence” without checking it thoroughly,

    And that’s what I think this forum is all about. I’m surprised you haven’t noticed before.

  98. “You are picking on me” obviously.

  99. “In order for me and others to better evaluate her point of view, could Mary please name a country or two which she does consider civilised?”

    Well I don’t know about Mary but to my mind the countries which are most civilised are those which strive to live in peace with other countries, those that don’t go round firing hellfire missiles at innocent women and children. Countries like Iceland, Switzerland, Iran. Britain’s attacks on other countries for financial gain must put them well down the list, America must be near bottom.

    If the world is to become civilized then countries must live together in a civilized society, not use violence against each other, not steal from each other, not try to bully or intimidate each other and abide by the rule of law. If countries were people which would you consider most civilised, the ones that minded their own business or the ones that went out breaking into other people’s houses, stealing anything valuable, killing their children, raping their wives and then burning their house down?

  100. Habbabkuk same shit, different day. How I wish there was an “ignore user” facility on here.

  101. Mary at 9.42 pm.

    It’s called ‘Dr David Kelly and Matters of International Importance’. It’s a closed FB group only open to members and Thames Valley Police.

  102. @Habbabkuk, I see it didn’t take to long to revert back to type; so we find out that for you British born Asians are not really British, and so can be deported for crimes that others (presumably “real ethnic Brits” in your view), , cannot be.

    Are you prepared to also express your revulsion iro the people involved in the follwing sex-rings ;

    Further, would will you go on record as steoretyping MPs & Israelis as having “bestial predilections”, as you have for Asians ? Can you also bring yourself to admit that child sex-rings also occur in other ethnic groups apart from Asian ?

  103. One of the Freedom of the Press Foundation’s first bundle, the National Security Archive, appears to have hit paydirt:

    The ‘Dynamite’ Pentagon Interview Behind ‘Zero Dark Thirty':,1

    Here’s the full Zero Dark Thirty file on the National Security Archive site:

    and – this is just something that’s niggled me since I first saw this file when it was released by Wikileaks as part of the Guantanamo Files in late April 2011 (only a matter of days before the Navy Seals raid on the Abbottabad compound) – the US knew of the link between Osama bin-Laden’s courier and Abbottabad from at least September 2006. Not Abu al-Kuwaiti though, as mentioned in the above ‘Dynamite’ Pentagon interview (and what little other ‘official’ info that’s been given about bin-Laden’s killing), another courier: Abu Faraj al-Libi. Read the 2nd paragraph on page 5 of his Detainee Assessment here:

    Thoughts, anyone? Personally, I have never quite been able to shrug off the feeling I had when news of Osama bin-Laden’s killing first broke, and particularly in the days that followed, with all the obfuscation that was going on, that – contrary to all the above ‘official’ Pentagon narrative and that of Zero Dark Thirty of a slow build-up of intelligence over years and weeks of meticulous planning for the raid itself – it was actually a bit of a rush-job in response to the Guantanamo Files release, as if they had the potential to reveal that the US administration knew full well where Osama was stashed all along.

  104. Sweet – John. Your Welcome Nevermind. Silent Witness…spooky synchronism Mary


    Alert divertissement!

  105. A ‘rush job’ indeed Arbed – and Paula Broadwell knows the truth. I’m curious as to long she will remain silent.

  106. @ Anon : you reply in vulgar and crude manner to a post of mine, and when I reprimand you you accuse me of “picking on you”? What a strange train of thought. Are you all there?

    @ Exexpat : cogently argued and elegantly phrased, well done!

    @ Macky : you must learn to pay attention and read what you see, not what you would like to see. The answer to your 1st and 3rd questions is “yes” (sorry to disappoint you); the 2nd question is based on a misrepresentation and therefore does not require an answer. BTW, would you now like to answer the questions in my original post?

    @ Fred : so you would include Iran in your list of civilised countries, would you? Spot of stoning to death for adultery, anyone? Or a swift amputation?

  107. @ Mary : acting perhaps “in loco parentis” for you, Fred has identified Iceland, Switzerland and Iran as civilised countries.

    When you get round to answering my question, please don’t forget to tell us whether you would endorse Fred’s selection.

    Many thanks, again.

  108. As well as all the other bollocks:
    Hubbubcook writes:

    share my view that the perpetrators should, after they have served their sentences, be deported to the country(countries) whence they or their forefathers came so that they could practice their bestial predilections on young girls of their own country and religion?

    — Standard racism.

  109. “In order for me and others to better evaluate her point of view, could Mary please name a country or two which she does consider civilised?”

    Depends what you call civilised, but – as far as I know – Wales and Ireland have distinguished themselves by having never invaded and/or occupied any other country.

  110. English Knight

    19 Jan, 2013 - 6:54 am

    Habbabkyk and Kempe, shades of chosen behaviour, no respect for goyim intelligence, and usual disdain over “sum dum goyim” cattle. Masquerading as Robert Maxwell. Mark Urban, Nick Robinson, Gavin Esler, Esther Rantzen, etc.

  111. Sky News have just transmitted a very disturbing report on Red Lion abattoir that slaughters horses, mostly ex racehorses. A case of man’s inhumanity to animals this time rather than man’s inhumanity to mankind.

    Again the Food Standards Agency’s incompetence is exposed. On sight of the report, they have withdrawn the abattoir’s licence.

    The slaughterhouse gave an assurance that the meat was not involved in the recent burger scandal and that the meat is exported to the continent. Larry Goodman’s ABP offshoot Silvercrest has been temporarily closed incidentally.

    I suppose that mechanically recovered meat slurry is being added as filler in the products displayed in those long lines of freezer cabinets in the supermarkets.

  112. Where is Willy Walsh when he’s needed? Passengers were sitting in a plane for six hours and then turfed off. The waits in some cases were so long that cabin crews exceeded their working time allowance and crews had to be replaced. Yet a third runway is being requested.

    BA sorry for luggage and flight problems caused by snow

    His salary and for other executives in IAG (BA and Iberia) BIG money.

  113. @ Thatcrab (01h44) “As well as all the other bollocks:”

    I admit I put in the last couple of lines, which you of course pick up on, as a kind of provocation, knowing that you would all seize on them rather than answering the basic question which immediately preceded, but….what exactly is “bollocks” in the rest of my post? Any thing inaccurate or tendentious there?

  114. “so you would include Iran in your list of civilised countries, would you? Spot of stoning to death for adultery, anyone? Or a swift amputation?”

    But compared to dropping atom bombs on Japanese cities that does sorta pale into insignificance don’t it?

  115. @ Glenn_uk :

    Firstly, thank you for responding in a civilised manner (unlike several others, whom I can only describe as foul-mouthed thugs).

    “Depends what you call civilised..” – you put your finger on it, it’s a matter of definition, isn’t it. You’ve advanced the criterion of never having invaded or occupied another country, which, although perhaps questionable (was the Allied occupation of Germany a good or bad thing?), could be one criterion. There are obviously alternative ones.

    I suppose that what I was objecting to was the sheer silliness of Mary’s originaln, ex cathedra statement that the UK was not a civilised country (and not a society) and I therefore offered her the opportunity to justify that statement, so to speak, by puting forward a couple of countries she would find civilised.

    It is off course entirely typical of Mary that, ever regal, she sweeps on not with an answer but with posts on, firstly horsemeat and then Willy Walsh.

    We’ve already seen off a Pope Joan, do we really want a Pope Mary?

  116. Fred : making comparisons can be useful, provided that you make relevant and sensible comparisons. Haven’t you just made what’s known as a category mistake?
    It has been argued that dropping the two atoms bombs shortened the war with Japan by at least half a year and saved many more lives than those who perished at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What, would you argue, is the ‘positive’ about stoning women to death or amputating limbs?

  117. Habbabkuk

    I am making the sensible comparisons, it’s obviously sensible that incinerating a hundred thousand women and children in someone else’s country is a hell of a lot more uncivilised than having a harsh penal system in your own.

    And as for the saving lives excuse, that was bullshit then and it’s bullshit now, if you had been paying attention then you would know why.

  118. This FoI request will interest John, Mark and others here.

  119. For all those who like to keep an eye on developments in the Assange extradition/Wikileaks Grand Jury investigation, and those who having been following the coverage of Aaron Swartz’s suicide.

    Some journalists have been digging into the reasons behind the US DoJ’s persecution of Aaron Swartz. First, there’s this:

    Not conclusive of anything much, but the involvement of the Secret Service in Swartz’s JSTOR case is odd. I understand it’s well off their patch. Then there’s this:

    In December 2010 through early 2011 Aaron Swartz was persistently FOIing David House’s visits to Bradley Manning in Quantico. That article includes a handy timeline to bear in mind when reading this Wall Street Journal article, dated 9 February 2011:

    Assange probe hits snag:

    The Empty Wheel blog is starting to put two and two together, here:

    And then comes this:

    Holy Hell!

  120. Two days back I requested an email subscription to Wikispooks. This morning checking my Junk mail (which I seem to do more often than ever) an activation email was sitting there for joining the subscription list. When I clicked on the link it came up with the message: ‘No list found. Please try again later’. Anybody know what’s causing this?

  121. Well, we’re making progress, in that we’ve managed to flush out “Fred”.

    “Fred” calls punishments such as stoning a woman to death for adultery or amputating limbs “having a harsh penal system” and persists in considering Iran, which enjoys such a system, a civilised country.

    I rest my case. Having said that, I’m not terribly interested in “Fred’s” view, but I would be interested in hearing from Mary, who started this off by asserting that the UK was not a civilised country but who, so far, has failed to tell us, for the purposes of discussion, which country or countries she would consider civilised.

  122. Mary, thanks for that link to Miriam’s FOI letter about photographs held by Thames Valley Police but presumably now ‘unavailable’ in the National Archives. It was one of two FOI requests she made. The other, to Thames Valley Police, also relates to the position of Dr Kelly’s body but this time through a witness (Detective Constable Coe) changing his testimony against that presented to Hutton, and whether he was questioned about subsequently about this change.

    Thames Valley Police have been most slipshod in the way they have provided (or rather not provided) information in their posssession regarding FOI requests.

  123. “It has been argued that dropping the two atoms bombs shortened the war with Japan by at least half a year and saved many more lives than those who perished at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”

    WARNING: Habitual babble from a very clever source, devoid of all wisdom. In fact too clever for his own good and ours. But of course, blind to it.

  124. Habbabkuk

    I see you have used the name “Fred”, complete with inverted commas three times there.

    You complain when people call you a troll yet you seem to think it’s OK for you to attack the person when you can’t argue with their logic.

    Women getting stoned and limbs getting cut off sounds like an average Saturday night out in Glasgow to me. There is no way you could compare that to the horrific murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent people.

  125. BTW, if any one here thinks this constant poking at Mary (whom i don’t know but already love) is civilised, please put their hand up.

    In fact we witness insanity in action: going on and on and on and on, somehow expecting a different result, while Mary is not going to give one hoot in that direction, leave alone two. Now that is wisdom, not that cheap-shot style intellect served up for free.

  126. Blegburnduddoo

    19 Jan, 2013 - 1:35 pm

    O/T but what do you think of this reported on BBC text Around the UK:

    Man posted beheadings on Facebook.
    A ”total fantasist” who posted gruesome videos on Facebook of al’Qaeda beheading captives has been jailed for five years.
    Craig Slee, 42, of Trawden Crescent, Preston, pleaded guilty to four offences under the 2006 Terrorism Act.

    Slee also admitted possession of a prohibited weapon.

    On sentencing him at Preston Crown Court, Judge Anthony Russell QC said the videos Slee uploaded revealed “shocking and barbaric depravity”.

  127. The British Establishment were cold conspirators, they were cold murderers of hundreds of thousand, maybe more than a million people in Iraq, a crime of unimaginable proportions.

    The British and American governments and their secret intelligence services hatched a conspiracy to deceive their citizens, to deceive and spy on the United Nations and to cheat the world into a false justification for war.

    The Chilcot report has been constrained by whitehall’s refusal to release key evidence held by MI6 and GCHQ.. Sir John Chilcot has publically revealed frustration at the inability to observe key papers, including records of talks between Blair and George W Bush.

    We can with some certainty gather the required 100,000 signatures to force the British coalition to respond to our request for the release of this evidence. Meanwhile we can I believe also demand the Chilcot report into Iraq IS RELEASED FORTHWITH and Antony Lyndon Blair and others charged as war criminals responsible for the annihilation of Iraq, including the orphaning, maiming and displacement of millions of children together with the murder of innocent civilians by British and American radiation and cluster bombs, chemical weapons, depleted uranium, death squads and torture.

    I will post the petition url here shortly.

  128. @ Fred : since they seem to annoy you, I’ll dispense with the inverted commas.

    Get serious, Fred, or be quiet. If you look at my post, you’ll see that I began “It has been argued…..”. Whether you accept it or not, it is an argument used to justify the use of the atom bomb. Can you give me ONE argument which can be used or has been used to justify the practice of stoning adulterous women to death or the amputation of limbs?

    (And don’t be silly and answer “because it deters people”!)

  129. Habbabkuk

    I think you will find that that has been the practice since the dawn of civilization, which BTW dawned for the people of Iran a long time before it dawned for us westerners. In America they strap people to chairs and put electricity through them, equally barbaric. They also shoot school children.

    But none of this can even remotely compare to the barbaric act of dropping atom bombs on cities, not in the same league by a long chalk, that has to be the ultimate act of barbarism.

  130. @ Villager

    “while Mary is not going to give one hoot….”

    Villager, I don’t flatter myself that my posts will do anything to bring Mary closer to assuming a degree of responsibility for the rubbish she sometimes posts.

    That would not be Mary, who will surely continue to break into each and every thread with total irrelevancies like “Mr X has 182 company directorships” or with idiocies which she is subsequently unwilling to explain, let alone defend, like “the UK is not a civilised country”.

    But never mind, I’ll continue to bring her (and others of her ilk) up sharply as and when it’s deserved. That’s the wonderful thing about a public forum (as I’m sure you won’t agree).

  131. @ Fred : I ‘ll give it one last try before using my intellectual firepower more productively on other matters today.

    1/. You say “Iran is a civilised country”

    2/. I reply “Does a civilised country have a legal system which provides for the stoning to death of women and the amputation of limbs?” This reply is organically linked to your assertion.

    3/. Your reply then is to point out that the US is an uncivilised country because it dropped atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki during a war.

    What is the relevance of Point 3 to Points 1 and 2?

    Answer : none. It is a diversion. You cannot assert, in the face of my argument, assert that Iran is a civilised country because the US isn’t.

    It’s as if you were to say, in another discussion, that Stalin was a good guy because Hitler wasn’t.

  132. “But never mind, I’ll continue to bring her (and others of her ilk) up sharply as and when it’s deserved. That’s the wonderful thing about a public forum (as I’m sure you won’t agree).”

    Actually I don’t agree. I think that the one thing which quickly turns a public forum into a cesspit is bigoted supercilious pricks who think they are better than everyone else, think they can dictate to others what they can or can’t post.

    This is a free forum, Mary has every right to post anything she wants so if you don’t like her posts just don’t read them. It’s simple, the blocks which say “Mary” at the top just ignore and leave Mary to post as she likes and everybody else to read what they like.

    Other than that, if you can find a better hole go crawl into it else stop moaning.

  133. “I ‘ll give it one last try before using my intellectual firepower more productively on other matters today.”

    Feel free.

    But dropping atom bombs on cities will still be about as barbaric as you can get, not the sort of thing a civilised country does at all.

  134. Habbabkuk

    “It has been argued that dropping the two atoms bombs shortened the war with Japan by at least half a year and saved many more lives than those who perished at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”

    So what? It’s still bullshit, and has been shown to be so so often that you do little more than confirm your ignorance.

    It’s the extent to which you employ it in your argument for which you are condemned.

    I find laughable too the notion that any argument from barbarian Anglo-Saxon sources be used to criticise Iran on the matter of civilisation.

    The Americans, British, French, Belgians etc are indisputably the greatest barbarians in human history, and even today they continue their vile project. The only interesting feature is the extent to which they are now also turning their barbarity in upon themselves too.

  135. Craig
    rather amused so see how the hasbara troll, the magnificent hababba has already managed to take over the discourse at this site. This amico dei amici, employes his “intellectual firepower”, if there such a thing, to spread lies and nonsense, like the supposed stoning of that famous murderer Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani This hoax spread primarily by Bernard-Henri Levy the famous philanthropist and proponent of “humanitarian” but otherwise murderous bombing in Libya, like all the big lies of today already seems to show immortality. It may help if our amico could use his “intellectual firepower” (but no bombing, please) to tell us which part of the current Iranian penal code (including citations) is devoted to that matter. By “current” I mean exactly that and not the one from the days of Shah of Persia. In case of failure, habbabba could try his luck by digging into the Saudi Arabian penal code.

    Finally, I would like to thank you dear Craig for encouraging this habbabba troll to amuse us here. We all rather enjoy to be smeared by his daily dose of filth.

  136. “The Americans, British, French, Belgians etc are indisputably the greatest barbarians in human history, and even today they continue their vile project. The only interesting feature is the extent to which they are now also turning their barbarity in upon themselves too.”

    David, just to put things into perspective, vis-a-vis your whitewashing of Iran; after Nadir Shah had taken Delhi in 1739, he stood upon a rooftop and watched as his soldiers carried out their orders to butcher every man, woman and child in sight. Some 35,000 Indians were slaughtered in this wholly unnecessary act.

    All cultures, societies, civilizations resort to brutality, though personally I would find it hard to top Stalinist Russia in the evil stakes.

  137. Non argues:

    “All cultures, societies, civilizations resort to brutality, though personally I would find it hard to top Stalinist Russia in the evil stakes.”

    Yes, Non, all cultures, societies, civilizations may resort to brutality, but it’s also important here to understand the distinction between brutality and cruelty. Cruelty is much more the mark of the barbarian.

    The main distinction though is between those who for whom barbarianism is their main economy and the more civilised approach.

    It can’t for example have escaped many peoples attention that the major economy for Europeans hasn’t much changed since their tribal days. It’s still rape and plunder. It’s important to contrast this with the traders of the ME, wherein civilisation grew. You can see the distinction most sharply in how Palestine was changed by the influx of Europeans.

    I’d grant that the slavs are barbarians too of course.

  138. Habbakuk, our very own local hasbarra, which btw. also translates into the German word Arschloch.

    “Villager, I don’t flatter myself that my posts will do anything to bring Mary closer to assuming a degree of responsibility for the rubbish she sometimes posts.”

    You post nothing mate, just argue the toss because you’re not getting enough/attention, oh dear. you must be hard up to go into overdrive here.

    So who cut of Kenian men’s gonads and called it ‘negotiating with the Mau Mau’? and who marched young children past concentration camp ovens, some as young as six years old, under the term ‘de-nazification’?

    Not to speak of the horrendous torture committed to the chagossians, interned in Mauritius in infested housing, never to be allowed to return home?

    Without British support Stalin would have never been so sure of himself when he disappeared millions.
    Irans justice system is as detestable than our own.

    But they don’t start wars or shoot at children, deliberately, to torture society and local communities, but our allies do.

    Your performance here has been piss poor you hypocrite

    The debate is futile to say the least

  139. Here I am again, the educational mission continues!

    @ Fred (14h57) – of course Mary has the right to post what she wants. And I have the same right to post on her posts if I feel like it. There! I’ve tried to put it in the simplest possible manner so that you might finally understand.

    @ David (15h24) – another person who needs to learn how to read more carefully. If you did, you might have noticed that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were introduced into this discussion not by me but by Fred. And the “extent” to which it’s employed is all Fred’s, I’m afraid.

    BTW @ Non (16h41) – an excellent reply to an outstandingly stupid statement, thank you for saving me the trouble to reply.

  140. Habbabkuk

    I read well enough. I wasn’t concerned at who introduced the American’s barbaric bombing, but who made stupid statements about it.

    It was you, unsuprisingly.

    And still the main modus operandi of the Anglo Saxon peoples is as it was in their tribal days, raping, plundering and pillaging. You see, it’s all they know.

    The Americans aren’t even coy about their barbarism. They’re quite proud of it. Only a complete fool would attempt to argue otherwise.

  141. I’m of Saxon forefathers and have you know that rape pillage and plunder is sadly in the blood of any stirred soul, just look at all those eastern European immigrants to Israel and what trouble they can cause.

    There is no top shelf on barbarity, maybe a genetic anomaly that has turned us into savages long before we walked upright.

  142. “of course Mary has the right to post what she wants. And I have the same right to post on her posts if I feel like it. There! I’ve tried to put it in the simplest possible manner so that you might finally understand.”

    Then I will proceed to pull you and others of your ilk up every time you post your inane drivel and we will have a forum consisting of nothing but whingers like you.

  143. Nevermind

    It’s a cultural rather than a genetic thing. The main point though is that the Americans as with the Europeans before them are so barbaric in their pursuit of wealth that it’s laughable of Habbabkuk, their supporter, to seek to make such distinctions of Iran, especially now as American and Western barbarism is in full and open attack.

    We are civilised. They are barbaric. It’s garbage.

    There’s trade and then there’s plunder and pillage as a means of economy. The trading economies are simply more civilised than those which are based on plunder. That’s obvious, and anyone can reason why it might be so. It’s simply the case that the ME was the crossroads of world trade and that’s reflected in the culture of the people. By the same token the West hasn’t moved much from plunder as a dominant means of economy.

    It doesn’t take a genius to work out that our culture is much more militaristic and violent than that of a trading people, for example. When Europeans began to arrive in Palestine, they, like the Dodo, weren’t prepared for the violence and slaughter that was to be visited upon them.

    It’s important too to avoid collapsing everything into sameness. Distinctions and difference really do exist.

  144. habbabba

    thanks for telling everybody that your “educational mission continues”. What a loveable little hasbara clown you are. Please continue amusing us for the rest of this, not yet so old “New year” of 2013.

  145. Fred and others – I never had any intention of responding and will not do so now. To give any answers to the resident interrogator would just result in one of those pointless circular arguments. Just to say that it is not a nice feeling to be singled out for rubbishing but I guess that there is some agenda. Something pathological about it?

    Hague has just announced that five British hostages and one British resident in Algeria have either been killed or are unaccounted for. That is sad news.

    I have been out today but when I came in I looked up AFRICOM as I had been discussing it with friends and did not know much about it. Reading through this below one is struck by the sheer arrogance of the Americans in creating this monstrosity and stride the African continent. It is a creation of Rumsfeld’s and is yet another manifestation of the PNAC. Note Algiers.

    I/C General Ham. Would that be the son of Noah whose siblings were Shem and Japheth? :)

    Note this
    General Ham has stated (in an online Washington Post article by Greg Miller and Craig Whitlock, posted on October 1, 2012) that, as a result of Al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb’s overtaking and capturing more territory in Mali in Africa, and possessing arms from Libya after the Libyan civil war which overthrew Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, there is the possibility of the U.S. assisting (not leading) counterterror operations done by other countries. A more radical step would be the use of drones.[5] On October 18, 2012, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta announced that President Obama will nominate General David Rodriguez to succeed General Carter Ham as commander of U.S. Africa Command.

    A comment in this report on Ch 4 from one of the Mali army officers said that the ‘terrorists’ are very well and expensively armed. He can’t imagine where the supplies and endless supplies of fuel come from!

    Whilst the operation has been going on in Algiers, nothing much has been reported from Mali. Algiers has been almost like a distraction. How much of what is happening is real or is psy op?

    No laughing, Sky have just had Col Richard Kemp on.

  146. @ Fred (19h01) : yes, you absolutely must. Nobody should be above constructive criticism, there should be no posts with an exemption- from – comment pass.

    @ Karel : always pleased to oblige a Charlie (Karel=Charles, geddit?). Your wish is my command, Sir.

    @ Mary : I’m sorry – but not surprised – to hear you say that to ask you the occasional simple question (eg “how is it relevant to the point under comment that Mr So and So has 182 company directorships?” is to rubbish you. I thought that this blog was a place for reasoned discussion rather than for reading ex cathedra statements which we are somehow expected to swallow without demur.

  147. Craig,
    You say “However in the UK it remains the case that since the coalition government came to power, there has not been one single government statement on the human rights atrocities in Uzbekistan…”
    It seems to me that there is much duplicity in the world. The Americans turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia as does Britain not seeing or hearing any evil in Bahrain.
    The silence in the UK simply reflects the fact that the Government is comfortable with the status quo.
    However, it is a very good thing that this campaign has started.

  148. Habbabba,

    your prosaic outpourings remind me of Glenda Slagg’s contributions to Private Eye. Are you by any chance a fictitious character? Geddit??

  149. @arbed “the US administration knew full well where Osama was stashed all along.”

    Thats my feeling as well. It is difficult to believe that it really took the US so long to find him. There would be many advantages to keeping him a secret prisoner. They obviously wouldn’t want to publicly admit to holding him prisoner. If they could control him then they could gain useful information about Islamist groups contacting him. It could well be that he thought he had cut a deal with the Pakistani ISI, and they housed him and looked after him.

    Plus of course his confessions/boasts are the only public evidence of his involvement with 911.

    Plus the ‘search’ for him was the main reason quoted by ordinary Americans trying to justify their country’s continued war on Afghanistan.

    I suspect that he was never nearly as influential as he was made out to be – just a useful bogeyman for the Americans to use in their war of terror.

  150. @Mary “Fred and others – I never had any intention of responding and will not do so now. To give any answers to the resident interrogator would just result in one of those pointless circular arguments. Just to say that it is not a nice feeling to be singled out for rubbishing but I guess that there is some agenda. Something pathological about it?”

    Mary I would guess that you are singled out because you are a particularly committed and coherent contributor to this blog, and are highly valued by most of us here – you are like a proxy for all of us.

    PLEASE could we have Habbabkuk excluded?

    At least could we all refrain from feeding him, as Mary rightly does.

    It is not hard to skip his comments, but to start reading other people’s and find they are just in an argument with him gets very frustrating.


  151. Phil W,

    why should we be deprived of a light amusement provided daily in the style of Glenda Slagg and at no cost by numerous valuable contributors, like habbabba? Your plea, “PLEASE could we have Habbabkuk excluded?”, should be perhaps addressed to Craig who seems to be rather fond of him. Admittedly, even I have become somewhat fond of habbabba’s verbal ejaculations, which never fail to amaze me.

  152. “PLEASE could we have Habbabkuk excluded?”

    I don’t think we should discriminate on the grounds of colour creed or intellectual ability. Whether Habbabkuk was born like that or dropped on his head when he was a baby it’s not his fault and shouldn’t be used against him.

    What sort of a society are we becoming? Have some compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves man.

  153. Habitual Babbler Kuku

    “Villager, I don’t flatter myself that my posts will do anything to bring Mary closer to assuming a degree of responsibility for the rubbish she sometimes posts.”

    Come on, you’re a liar (unless you’re admitting your insanity), oh yes you do flatter yourself which, perhaps, is why you go on and on at it (your latest attempt at 19h50). There is definitely something pathological about the insufferable, petty habitual babble you cook up.

    ‘Intellectual firepower’ and ‘educational mission’, etc indeed. LOL you really do fancy yourself don’t you? You’re a cracked-up human being but in your idiocy you are complete.

  154. Fred wrote
    “I don’t think we should discriminate on the grounds of colour creed or intellectual ability. Whether Habbabkuk was born like that or dropped on his head when he was a baby it’s not his fault and shouldn’t be used against him.

    What sort of a society are we becoming? Have some compassion for those less fortunate than ourselves man.”

    Fred, I agree with your compassion, but did you say born? I would have thought he was found by someone in hospital lifting a mattress or on some doorstep. Since then he’s been preening himself in front of a mirror.

    Phil w. How can you be so callous to this poor soul

  155. Mali was just fine until the cross-hairs were focused away from a smashed Libya towards West Africa. On a pretext the mercenaries arrived, the front-end of terror. French neo-colonialism twix British rape and pillage on a fig-leaf to steal oil, gas and minerals, hinder Russia and China while creating a splint for the broken dollar.!

    The Bull-shit button available here:

  156. Villager, 10.25pm

    Hi, are you able to contact any one of Clark, John Goss or Nevermind? We’re trying to get you into the loop for maybe coming to the Assange Oxford Union counterprotest outside the Ecuadorian embassy on Wednesday, as you’d expressed interest in going, but none of us have your contact details.

  157. Arbed, thanks for picking up on that. I can confirm within the next couple of days my participation and will email Clark accordingly. Hope to see you and others then.

    Thank you also Clark.

    Good Sunday to all–stay well and warm!

  158. Come on all of you, stop behaving like vultures. Do not spoil the fun. After all habbabba provides a perennial sort of entertainment at this site. In these hard times, my rather confined quarters do not allow me any more the luxury of providing lodgings for a couple of jesters to entertain me during dinners. So what is left to me in my old age? Private Eye seems not so funny any more and Charlie Hebdo is full of feeble cartoons about Muslims, which somehow fulfills (at least in the eyes of Charb, the head “anti-zionist” of that rag) their weekly pensum of defending the freedom of speech. Let me plead for more tolerance and compassion to our less fortunate neighbours from hell. It is unfortunate that these two noble attributes of humanity are so rare nowadays.

  159. What about torture by British forces in Iraq? That never seems to get any coverage here. How come?

  160. @Habbabkuk: “Depends what you call civilised..” – you put your finger on it, it’s a matter of definition, isn’t it. You’ve advanced the criterion of never having invaded or occupied another country, which, although perhaps questionable (was the Allied occupation of Germany a good or bad thing?), could be one criterion. There are obviously alternative ones.

    Thank you – and we agree, it’s all about the definition. At its most basic, I’d suggest that has three broad categories – how it treats its own people, how it treats others, and how much it respects the environment. Not necessarily in that order.

    Perhaps Wales and Ireland were too busy dealing with a very imposing old enemy to do too much conquistadoring of their own, if that’s actually a verb. All the same, neither country repressed its own people overmuch or attacked others – Wales was under the rule of English Lords and their minor despotic little rulers, again – possibly they never had much chance to do so.

    Anyway, let’s look at Britain as a whole. It’s relatively non-violent compared with most of the rest of the world – although China apparently ranks a little better (their reporting may be suspect). We don’t allow people to starve, or go without healthcare. But we do have enormous inequality.

    Perhaps allowing vast disparity in income and wealth marks a country as not so civilised, because that appears to be the most significant factor in almost every social measure of well-being.


    How it treats others – ‘good’ wars, ‘good’ occupations and so on, is another large subject. Open to the dubious history written by the victor, naturally. Given Britain has attacked almost all other nations at some point, this particular measure is not in our favour here.

    As for the environment – we gave the world the industrial revolution, what more do you want? :/

    In my darker moments, I feel this gift is playing out its final stages, and I have doubts that we have more than two or three decades of recognisable civilisation remaining.

  161. I agree that this current case has not been mentioned but Baha Mousa, the Kenyan torture and Abu Ghraib have been in the past. This current case, although important, is a side show when the main culprits, Bush and Blair, and their cohorts, go free.

    I wonder who is funding the three days in the High Court. That will be about £150,000 minimum and demonstrates the difficulty of obtaining justice in the UK. The price is out of reach for the average person.

    For instance, the cost of the failed appeal to the Attorney General to grant a judicial review of the decision not to grant an inquest for Dr Kelly wiped out the fund which stood at £50,000 + I believe.

    The proceedings, which most of those attending could not hear or observe due to the physical limitations of the RCJ, the antique Victorian Gothic pile in the Strand, lasted just six hours and most of that time was taken up by the barristers reading out passages of dry law and the judge reading out a long judgement which seemed to be pre-scripted! A travesty.

  162. Cameron is speaking live from Chequers making a statement about seven Britons having been killed in Algeria – three people definitely, three unaccounted for but assumed dead, and one British resident dead. He is displaying cold outrage. You would think he bears no personal responsibility for the deaths of anyone in Libya, Syria and now Mali.

    Apparently Hague will be on Marr later which, in Marr’s absence, is being presented by the lightweight Jeremy Vine.

  163. If you doubt my calling Vine lightweight, he is biased too.

  164. KingofWelshNoir

    20 Jan, 2013 - 2:47 pm

    Hi Mary

    Talking of Jeremy Vine, I’ll never forget the time I was listening to his show and a caller tried to raise the issue of 9/11 Truth. It was astonishing. I don’t think I’ve ever heard a caller dumped faster. The ostensible subject of the debate was Afghanistan, and the caller in response to a point about Osama bin Laden started to say he didn’t believe the official narrative of 9/11. He’d hardly got to the end of the word eleven before Jeremy Vine, in total panic, shouted over him, ‘Oh we’ve run out of time, we have to go to the news…’ (or words to that effect) Then he turned the music up and drowned out the caller. But it was about four minutes to one o’clock, so we listened to the song for three minutes or so, thus putting the lie to the claim that we had run out of time. Amazing.

  165. So what are you saying? That Jeremy Vine is part of the organised cover-up for 9/11? Maybe he just didn’t want some looney Troofer wasting everybody’s time.

  166. It is not just the slavery in the cotton fields in Uzbekistan. There are prisoners of conscience like this writer who is also ill. Please sign the petition and invite your friends.

  167. King of Welsh Noir Ha! He gets two hours every weekday to put out the propaganda. Say a little, play a little musak, then get someone to speak to, etc etc ad infinitum. It’s the radio equivalent of moving wallpaper. A gullible audience no doubt.

    eg Yesterday

    Algerian hostages and school closures
    Availability:5 days left to listen
    Duration: 2 hours
    First broadcast:Friday 18 January 2013
    Jeremy discusses the Algeria hostage crisis, school snow closures, how to deal with boiler breakdowns and a lucky crane driver who avoided the London helicopter crash.

    I promise I have never listened to his radio programme. I do think his comedian brother is quite amusing in a schoolboyish sort of way. Jeremy’s second wife is Rachel Schofield one of the BBC News presenters on TV, part of the state broadcaster’s propaganda machine. A family business in actual fact for the Vines.

    Paxman the prime feeder at the BBC trough referred to Jeremy Vine as a ‘mini me’ apparently. There’s a put down.

  168. Barack Hussein Obama has just repeated the oath of office. Let’s see what he says tomorrow. Just like the last time? Think what has been done in his name over the last four years, not least the drone killings and the extra=judicial killings.

    Biden took his earlier at the Naval Observatory before Justice Sotomayor and then went to lay a wreath at Arlington with Obama. Disgusting hypocrites. Biden dressed his up with a clergyman reciting a prayer and a reading from the book of Micah. From a tweet

    Reading from the Prophet Micah before VP Biden’s oath: ” …only to do justice and to love goodness and to walk humbly with your God.” LOL

  169. @ Glenn_uk (03h40) – thank you for your post, to which as follows.

    Your three broad categories are as good a starting point as any and the order in which you list them is a logical one.

    Before commenting on your specific points, I think we’d agree that this exercise is fraught with methodological difficulties, amoung which I’d suggest the following main ones:

    1/. do we give equal importance to each of the three categories or attempt to establish a hierarchy of importance (I think it’s this you may have been alluding to when you wrote “But not necessarily in that order”?); if the latter, then a weighting might need to be determined (in this connection, see next point)

    2/. do we, after factual examination, give a “mark” for each category, or do we dispense with “marks” in favour of a judgement based on feeling/intuition/flavour (I’m trying to find the right word here, but I hope you understand what I mean). If the former, do we fix a “pass mark” for each category or do we aggregate the categories and fix a “pass mark” for the aggregate number.

    3/. what elements/events should each of these broad categories encompass; bearing in mind, in this connection, the need as I see it to pronounce judgement on a country as it is now and in the fairly recent past (policy and outcomes) where this is sensible and possible.

    It goes without saying that HOW those elements/events should be judged is key (although this is not, strictly speaking, a methodological difficulty).

    So, now to comment specifically but telegraphically (you’ll see that most of these comments will flow from one or the other of the above 3 points).

    A. How the UK treats its own people.

    Include societal elements such as degree of personal freedom, tolerance of differences (including sexual)and dissent by both the state and individuals, individual liberties (eg right to abortion).
    Importance of income and wealth disparities as against whether even the lowest paid have enough for a reasonable life (ex.: poor in the UK is rich compared to poor in India)

    B. How the UK treats others.

    Certainly one has to distinguish between types of wars and occupations …and not fail to remember either that a bad outcome does not necessarily invalidate a good motivation, and vice versa. Accuracy of the claim that at one time or another the Uk has attacked most other countries (and in verifying this claim – and indeed distinguishing between types of wars – question of whether we are looking at the UK as it is now and its fairly recent past or the UK over the last…x…centuries). Need to take into account development assistance and record of matters such as asylum.

    C. The UK and the environment.

    Your example is actually a good illustration of the dangers of anachronism. UK the first country to industrialise, at a time when the environment (whether natural or human) was simply not an issue. Hence need to evaluate present (and reasonable recent)policies and outcomes.

    Well, that’s enough for now. Thank you again for providing good material for discussion and I look forward to your thoughts if you feeel like continuing!

  170. re Mary today (09h01) on David Cameron “You would think he bears no personal responsibility for the deaths of anyone in Libya, Syria and now Mali” :

    whether he does or not, he certainly bears less than the late Colonel Ghadaffi, the soon-to-be-late President Assad Junior and whoever started the fighting in Mali.

  171. Mali’s problems are directly related to western paranoia and guile.
    Just as they tried to give Iran a falsified nuclear bomb blueprint, they also trained Mali and Nigers anti terrorist forces in the wake of 911, in the hope that they would be their bulwark, would support western ignorance of sovereignty and misunderstanding about property rights.

    They obviously did not and felt that the stooge junta in place since 2012 was able enough to put the Tuareg’s in their place, who for decades fought for an autonomous region in northern Mali and so they started to use the terror training they received and bought modern weapons from what little resources they controlled.

    Mali and Niger are crucial to France as it is dependent on energy derived from uranium. Mali’s gold/gas and oil reserves, with abstraction controlled by foreign countries to the tune of 80%, could make it very prosperous should they ever take control over their affairs.

    Instead it will be engulfed and divided by decades of strife and chaos, in the same way Iraq was ruined, according to Cameron today, its neo-colonial rape and pillage by neo fascists who can’t make their own systems sustainable, or keep to their principles.

  172. should read ‘since 2012 was not able enough’, mea culpa.

  173. Ben Franklin -Machine Gun Preacher (unleaded version)

    20 Jan, 2013 - 8:15 pm

    Mary @5:26

    Biden should expand his Biblical references to the New Testament. As a shameless Bag-Man for his POTUS, he bears some heavy responsibility, besides a pious disposition.

    Matthew 22:15-21

    “15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

    16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

    17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

    18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

    19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

    20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

    21 They say unto him, Caesar’s. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s.

    I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes……

  174. How Washington helped foster the Islamist uprising in Mali
    December 2012

    As the French-led military operation begins, Jeremy Keenan reveals how the US and Algeria have been sponsoring terror in the Sahara.

    The author –
    Jeremy Keenan (born 1945) is a British social anthropologist. He is a professor at the School of Oriental and African Studies of the University of London. The regional focuses of his research are the Sahara, North Africa and the Sahel region. Concerning the contents, he concentrates on anthropology of development, security and globalisation. During the last years, he has published a number of books and articles about the approaches of the United States to counter terrorism in Africa.

    Keenan has long argued that Islamist terror groups in North Africa are masterminded by Algeria, with the knowledge of the CIA and other intelligence services, which stage “false flag” attacks to expand Algerian political influence over the region and its economic resources. In his book “The Dark Sahara”, Keenan accuses the United States and Algeria of having conspired to fabricate evidence and exaggerate the threat of al-Qaeda terrorism in Northern Africa. He calls the “global war on terror” a deception and claims that it is causing immense damage to the peoples of the Sahara, namely the Tuareg.

    On 22 May, he alleged in a BBC interview that the Algerian government (despite being officially secular) was backing Ansar Dine, both because Ansar Dine justified the existence of the government’s security apparatus, and because backing it allowed Algeria to “project power in what it sees as its sphere of influence”.[

  175. If the contents of this piece and of the one above are true, then Agent Cameron is well out of his depth amongst the sharks.

    Algeria Hostage Crisis: Terror Attack ‘Inside Job’ Gone Wrong, Says Professor Jeremy Keenan

  176. The annual shindig for the vultures at Davos is about to kick off. Amongst the over 280! speakers are Cameron (on The Global Development Outlook) and Gordon Brown – the latter listed to speak three times. Who would sit there and listen to him after his failures? And they pay to go. I also spotted Stephanie Flanders BBC and Gillian Tett FT guru. And of course Soros and Gates. Funniest of all was Nik Gowing BBC World Service speaking on ‘Is Democracy Winning?’.

  177. In the Huffington Post article Mary links to at 21h09 Professor Keenan doesn’t mention the US or any other foreign power once. He focuses exclusively on the Algerian state security services.
    So why has Mr Cameron been mentioned in Mary’s post?

  178. Mary’s 17 lines on Professor Jeremy Keenan (cf. her post of 20h51 today) are lifted – without acknowledgment – straight out of Wikipedia.

    For another, perhaps more sceptical perspective on Professor Keenan I suggest readers turn to an article entitled “Death and career in the dark Sahara: the sad fate of Jeremy Keenan”. It can be found on a website called and ends with the following lines:

    “Keenan reduces a complicated living history and society to the manoeuvres of the Algerian secret police and the CIA. Those are not nice or well intentioned people: no doubt. But the CIA and Algeria’s secret police are easily understandable by western readers.It (Keenan’s thesis) paints a world of binary conflicts, with simple motivations, focussed on Western elites and their concerns. Perhaps this is comforting for his western reader, but it is also a narrative that removes several million Africans from their own history, as if they all simply take orders from other white folks with whom Keenan has a beef.”

  179. I laughed. We should all laugh.
    Cameron says tonight that the terror threat in north Africa could last decades.
    When “we” were toppling Gaddafi, France armed and funded the Islamist group currently causing bother in Algeria. We funded and armed and trained another group or two in Syria. And we just love having Pharaoh Morsi in charge in Egypt (remember how Hillary gave him her blessing just after Iron Dome).
    And so rolls on the War for Profits redux. Now that Syria is off the menu, it didn’t take “us” long to cook up a substitute – one that will take years to sort out.
    The media will keep it current, though. They won’t do anything inconvenient like join it all together.

  180. Oh dear. Poor Habby is having reading and comprehension problems now.

    “In the Huffington Post article Mary links to at 21h09 Professor Keenan doesn’t mention the US or any other foreign power once. He focuses exclusively on the Algerian state security services.
    So why has Mr Cameron been mentioned in Mary’s post?”

    What Mary said: “If the contents of this piece and of the one above are true, then Agent Cameron is well out of his depth amongst the sharks.”

    Take a break, eh, or are you going all out for the sympathy vote.

  181. More comprehension problems from Habby. It’s quite clear that tomathon is very much in favour of Keenan’s previous work. He’s arguing that it now seems to lack some of the complexity of previous work.

    The point tomathon is missing of course is that post 911 the West is acting in concert and the alliances are much less complex than in earlier periods. France and the US are now in lockstep as is the UK etc. This was not the case previously as anyone with even the faintest aquaintance with current affairs would understand.

  182. Hi David! Yes,it’s true that I’m having comprehension problems with both of Mary’s links. Neither of those two links (whether their content is true or not) mentions the UK, so I’m having difficulties comprehending why Mary suddenly introduces Mr Cameron into her post in order to state that he is out of his depth.

    Just asking!

  183. And by the way, David, one should always tell the truth and not try to misrepresent things. You probably hoped that nobody would read the Tomathon article I referred to. So let me quote directly from it :

    “Keenan used to be a scholar of note. His 1977 book remains the best English language text on the Ahhagar Touareg of southern Algeria. But over the last decade or so his writing has descended into screed. His 2004 collection of articles…seems his last work with scholarly pretensions.”.

    Not quite the same as what you posted, which was “He’s arguing that it (ie, Keenan’s work) now seems to lack some of the complexity of previous work”.

    Misrepresentation from you, dear David, or did you have problems of…..comprehension?

  184. Habby

    In the Mary post you said that the US wasn’t mentioned. It was!

    You lied!

    In the tomathon post, it’s quite clearly the case that Tom is complaining about a lack of complexity in Keenan’s later work, the multiplicity of actors etc.

    So again, you’ve lied.

    I can understand why you need to lie, of course.

  185. Hahahabubhahahabubukuk ahahahhahhhhabukukhahaha.

    The resource stealer’s are at it again and their small time side kicks are desperate to defend it by watching those who are not buying bullshit.

    He who gets hold of Mohktar Belmokhtar will find out what made him, do what he did, is he a double/triple agent provocateur.

    I wager £ 5 that he will be found dead, before he can speak. But thats our destiny as well, we all have to die, don’t we habbabikukri?
    Some do it with dignity and to make a serious point like Aaron Schwartz, others stand in front of the mirror and demise, because they can’t reconcile what they are looking at.

    “Nun pack mal deine dreckige, stinkende Waesche and verschwinde, du kleiner Scmarotzer.” as they say in Germany.

  186. I’m having difficulties comprehending why Mary suddenly introduces Mr Cameron into her post in order to state that he is out of his depth. Just asking!

    Marys posts concerned ‘the global war on terror’ and Cameron is –the Prime Minister. You must be rushing out comments to ask for help with understanding his relation. And proceeding to chastise and school everyone…

  187. Hab Babbler again:


    “Mary’s 17 lines on Professor Jeremy Keenan (cf. her post of 20h51 today) are lifted – without acknowledgment – straight out of Wikipedia.”

    Well the Babbler was lifted (more like released) after 17 years in a circus. Which one can we give credit to?

  188. “Just asking!”

    You’re too stupid to understand.

    Just answering.

  189. David : I realise you posted late at night, but you really must try to stay awake and alert. Courses in reading and telling the truth are also to be recommended.

    Mary’s first post (20h51 on 20 Jan.)indeed mentions the US, in that the second word of that post is “Washington”.

    I was, however, clearly referring to the contents of the links Mary gave both in that post and in her subsequent one. And there the US is nowhere mentioned.

    So I did not lie and you are a chump.

  190. @ Fred (08h29)

    Just saw your post.

    Are you fully awake yet? Or just incontinent?

    If I am “too stupid to understand”, then why are you “answering”? Surely your effort would be pointless?

  191. “If I am “too stupid to understand”, then why are you “answering”? Surely your effort would be pointless?”

    You are too stupid to understand that as well.

  192. Thanks for that Mary, I trust prof. Keenan has not learned his trade in FCO’s wine cellars or at Admiralty House, between teatime and leaving off early.

    Cameron has made the same lame statement than GWBush made after 911, i.e. the war on terror will last fifty years.
    That he needs our young most fittest boys, most from poorer background, to do the dying has not gripped his imagination yet.
    Expect the forces to spend money they have not got on TV advertisement.
    What we should say is, don’t die for Britain’s establishment and their continued reign of terror over others more fortunate in resources. Force that warmonger to bring in the draft and watch our MP’s sons and daughter, as well as fine gentlemen and ladies of the establishment get afflictions of all sorts to try and get out of it.

    Who knows they might not even appear on the register.

    Good to see our left over school master being back in fine form, we must buy him a new, longer leash so he can reach the grass, he’s straining somewhat.

  193. Someone got out of bed on the wrong side again :p

  194. Damn, missed my slot.
    But a good day to all!

    Two days ago i asked:
    ” BTW, if any one here thinks this constant poking at Mary (whom i don’t know but already love) is civilised, please put their hand up.”

    Not one.
    Nevermind: ” Good to see our left over school master being back in fine form, we must buy him a new, longer leash so he can reach the grass, he’s straining somewhat.”

    Yes, good one. His babble is turning into piddle. Tied to the lamppost, but can’t see the light. I think he enjoys playing captcha though.

  196. ‘Two days ago i asked:
    ” BTW, if any one here thinks this constant poking at Mary (whom i don’t know but already love) is civilised, please put their hand up.”’

    Mary’s posts are good, they focus our attention out at what is happening in the world, stimulate new topics and may lead to enlightenment.

    Habbabkuk’s posts are bad, they direct our attentions inwards towards ourselves where there is nowhere to go but up our own arseholes.

    Habbabkuk is too stupid to understand that. Are you?

  197. Recommended viewing:

    Krishnamurti at United Nations – 1985

    Then lets talk about enlightenment and civilisations.

  198. Fred are you arguing for or against what i said?

    Read again….

    Two days ago i asked:
    ” BTW, if any one here thinks this constant poking at Mary (whom i don’t know but already love) is civilised, please put their hand up.”

    Not one.”

    Which means not one has spoken against Mary’s contributions which are appreciated. You might want to apologise for your rudeness. As for your ” direct our attentions inwards towards ourselves where there is nowhere to go but up our own arseholes” remark, without trying to tempt you into a debate, i recommend you view the above video, to begin with.

  199. Crikey, I have jusr returned from the vets as my dog developed hip pain over the w/e and digging the hens out so that they can find a bit of grass under the snow and I find my name appearing again. It is really enbarassing and is beginning to get me down. Habbabkuk will not deter me however if that was the aim and I wish he/she would PLEASE lay off and stop filling up Craig’s blog with this endless repetition.

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