The shocking death of Lee Rigby quite naturally appals us all. The intention of the crazed little group who conceived this killing was to make it as horrible as possible in order to scare people.
Horrible, sociopathic violence happens to people from time to time. They have done since Cain killed Abel, metaphorically or literally as you choose. Here is another headline today, just as horrific:
A British soldier has been jailed for stabbing a 10-year-old boy after getting drunk on vodka while serving in Afghanistan.
Both that obscene attack and Michael Adebolajo’s appalling actions are borne out of the same conflict. But it is reasonable to suppose that both these incidents involved people with, for whatever reason, a pre-disposition to murderous violence.
Such people have always been with us and will always be with us, but fortunately they are very, very few. In a nation of 60 million, involvement in violent crime is very low. If you are the victim of criminal violence, the odds over the last decade are about one in twenty thousand that the violence inflicted on you will have any linkage to political or terrorist causation. And the odds that you will suffer any kind of violent attack are thankfully pretty remote.
We should not panic from theatrical violence, just deplore and take sober stock. Sadly if a lunatic on the bus decides to strangle you tomorrow, there are no pre-emptive laws that can stop that. We should stop pretending that the state can always prevent.
“The only certainty regarding yesterday’s news is that it shouldn’t be taken at face value.”
I suspect that the only thing many here will take at face value are the Isreali Shekels Habba and I are paid in!
You have been so far eluding the points that have been put to you. There again, ostrich does what ostriches do. Although you then go on taking a fucking quantum leap to connect the dots to end up with EDL.
However there always is the need for coming clean and unburdening, hence the following confession of the neo labour agent:
“Both factually and morally wrong – and it is not a metaphor but just plain crass.”
Perhaps if it were said in the presence of a Rigby family member, it would be insensitive. However, government responses have worsened the situation through foreign policy directives resulting in collateral deaths and disfigurement. As per usual, those most responsible for those casualties cannot be reached, so innocent citizens bear the brunt. When Chris Dorner melted down, his frustrated attempts to find and mete out his form of justice to the engineers of his troubles was thwarted by exigent circumstances. He murdered the daughter and future son-in-law of one party he sought, instead. True, his methodology and mission was corrupt, but he exhausted the rational means for resolution, and went barmy. It’s not a perfect analogy, but not all parties are innocent in that tragedy. Similarly, the hackers sought (and the video shows them just as self-righteous as Dorner) a solution; one they felt just and right about.
“These thirteen ‘articles’ are listed on the home page of the Mail.
Deplorable”
Together with many many other articles – do you have a problem with newspapers reporting the news – or is your problem with these particular articles not saying what you want or is it something else? Personally I find most news articles in the Mail garbage and have done so for many years – I am little suprised that this is so new to you that it warrants comment.
The ITV clip of the murderers statement is incomplete. ITV should not be rationing information, especially as their selected ration has time to show the murderer sashaying away from camera.
In the obtained clip the murderers appearance and tone of voice is odd.
The phonecall from the observer threatened with a gun by the perpetrators sounds hollow.
The perpetrators wished to be filmed and to give statements. Why did they not prerecord and publish anything themselves on modern media? – I expect this may follow now, but why would such ‘composed’ terrorists not have efficiently arranged their own statement?
I find their are multiple other matters of doubt about the event which there is not much worth belabouring. They will be covered haplessly in high pageranked discussions which include other weird themes.
Regardless of disbelief, this event will be reported and discussed by mass media in a particular way. That particular way we know, does never elevate the true solutions to this kind of insanity.
Fedup
Think it through, my comment was addressed to what Scourge wrote. For the record, I don’t think you are a troll for the EDL and you genuinely believe most of the garbage you write.
Projections! projections!
Your poxy contribution that needs to be further explained was not written out by me now, was it? You naughty ostrich you were being facetious, alas without much success, weren’t you?
Further, because you are one of those benighted souls with heavy scales on your eyes and very fat lala fingers in your ears, it is far too easy for you to pronounces away, and get on with your dissent against dissidents.
I thought Fedup’s 9:11pm comment, made a number of fair points, I would say it is the sort of analysis, with a sustained compelling argument, that makes this blog’s comment section of more than usual interest, such contributions are far more valuable than the sugary one-liners and quips that hardly leave an impression in the accumulating dust.
[for the benefit of new readers, there are four recognisable trolls here: Habba-Thing, Kempe, Resident Troll and the apprentice mole Fred, of whom great things are not expected]
It is highly comical to see those universally acknowledged as trolls those self-evidently ever engaging in persistent and sustained trolling, denouncing someone else, the blog spiralling into a troll-fest, with the usual suspects (see above) nauseatingly reinforcing one another’s preposterous apologia for all the evils of power, wealth and their sick elitist cult, whilst pouring their bile on the powerless or anyone daring or presuming to speak up for them, tender facts, logic and argument countering authoritarian orthodoxy, whenever they so much as rattle the bars of their cages.
‘Doug Scorgie’s’ comment is puzzling, could you explain the strange exception you have taken to Fedup’s comment, or let the previous Doug Scorgie return?
Let no-one be in any doubt their are three victims in this, one is the army hireling and the others are the two young men driven to this desperate act, by whatever imponderable forces.
The Crook death/the Rigby death, method and motive, murderer crazed by alcohol or religious belief, it would make little differnce to the agony of the bereaved.
BTW in this case ‘born’ not ‘borne’.
Adriana;
Even the bereaved require answers as to ‘why?’.
April Showers.
Your link [The Search for Change 23 May, 2013 – 7:23 am] (thankyou) which described Theresa May taking powers to strip Scotland Yard [the Met] of their counter-terrorism role is interesting and relevant here.
A close contact (we meet twice weekly) with information on the Met not generally made public has described to me the relationship between MI5, Special Branch and the Met. The connection is historic and has its roots in the early 1970s when the anti-terrorist branch and the “bomb squad” was set up to counter the threat from anarchist groups, such as the Angry Brigade, as well take part in the campaign against the IRA.
Keith Bristow will become the head of the National Crime Agency when it is formed in October this year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Bristow
Bristow is a member of Chatham House and sings from the same hymn-sheet on counter-terrorism:
http://www.chathamhouse.org/research/security/current-projects/ten-years-technology-and-counter-terrorism-911
Chatham House (RIIA) is engaged in the polemics of Britain’s (and American-now lead) neo-imperial offensive around the world. The chess pieces – MP’s (pawns) Military and security services form part of this plan encompassed within the 100 year ‘war on terror.’
Keep in mind Britain controls, primarily via the City of London, but also through de facto City of London subsidiaries in Asia and elsewhere, a significant percentage of international financial flows. That is key to the big picture because in our paradigm currency=corruption.
That corruption begets slaughter, murder, torture, destruction and assassination of whatever, all, everybody that would seriously damage this master strategy or Britain and America’s informal global financial empire – the ‘Anglo-American diaspora in the vocabulary of transnationalism. Simply it is Britain who steers the West’s global construct which is now centered toward Asia or Southeast Asia and the Pacific Rim.
Thus the master strategy includes the destruction of Syria or essentially Iran, the major energy supplier to China, the Asian super-power.
With the big picture exposed we can focus back. With Scotland Yard (The Met)out of the loop the constraints on discretion, caution and heed in the public interest will be lacking, down the drain.
The lunatics will be further empowered.
To Alison – with thanks
A clutch of 8 hahacluck eggs, all different sizes suitably covered in farmyard goo in a secondhand carton including feathers. Bdok-bdok-bdok-bdok bdaaaargh bdaargh bdaargh bdaaargh. Well done habaku!!!
“War seems to me to be a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had the sound sense of the nations not been systematically corrupted by commercial and political interests acting through the schools and the Press.”
Albert Einstein
A little more context: Einstein talking about War, Nature, Religion, The Mysterious and The snuffed-out Candle, Habbakuk…
“This topic brings me to that worst outcrop of the herd nature, the military system, which I abhor. That a man can take pleasure in marching in formation to the strains of a band is enough to make me despise him. He has only been given his big brain by mistake; a backbone was all he needed. This plague-spot of civilization ought to be abolished with all possible speed.
Heroism by order, senseless violence, and all the pestilent nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism-how I hate them! War seems to me a mean, contemptible thing: I would rather be hacked in pieces than take part in such an abominable business. And yet so high, in spite of everything, is my opinion of the human race that I believe this bogey would have disappeared long ago, had sound sense of the nations not been systematic corrupted by commercial and political interestrs acting through the schools and the Press.
The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle.
It was the experience of mystery–even if mixed with fear–that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms–it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.
I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.”
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/worldsee2.html
Villager Apart from being such a clever man, Einstein was Big on Wisdom. I particularly liked his Quote regarding WW3, and WW4 –
I do not know with what weapons World War 3 will be fought, but World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones. Albert Einstein –
Here’s An exelent piece on the Woolwich Killing by John Hilley
http://johnhilley.blogspot.co.uk/2013_05_01_archive.html
The use of the word ‘machete’ in these reports indicates an overall problem, not only with accurate news reporting, but peoples own critical thinking.
There is no machete. There was no machete. There has never been a machete. It seems that people are unconcerned with facts in the news media these days.
Thanks Brian.
That excellent John Hilley blog confirms my memory of Robinson’s comment which came out immediately after the news broke. Quite vile. I commented on it on the Search for change thread.
’22 May, 2013 – 7:36 pm
Ref the savage murder of a member of the armed forces in Woolwich this afternoon.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22630304
1908: The BBC’s Nick Robinson tweets: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”
He was a study in severity. He repeated the phrase ‘of Muslim appearance’ at least twice in the 6pm News on BBC1. The T word was used too and we were reminded of 7/7 and other terrorist attacks.’
John Hilley writes –
‘In essence, is state killing not terrorism? Are people not terrorised, terrified, by helicopter gunships? Is the killing of a person in this way any more or less gruesome than the obliteration of an Afghan child with an M16 missile? Is a ‘surgical strike’ any more palatable than a surgical hacking? Would the bloody outcomes of Nato strikes ever appear so graphically on front pages the way they have for the Woolwich killing?
Having dutifully repeated what official sources had briefed as a ‘terrorist’ attack, the BBC’s Nick Robinson later tweeted: “To those offended by my describing the attacker as of “Muslim appearance” – I was directly quoting a Whitehall source quoting the police.”
Robinson later apologised for the remark. Yet, alongside the insistence on a ‘terrorist’ crime, here, unwittingly revealed, was a consensually-loaded interpretation from police, government and the BBC.
What, does a Muslim supposedly ‘look like’? Is it conceivable that any of these institutions would ever speak of an alleged attacker as being of ‘Christian appearance’ or ‘Jewish appearance’?’
Thanks also for all the comments from the non-trolls. The trolls have arrived here in bucketfulls needless to say.
There were one or two comments from RD on the Werrity and Usmanov and preceding threads but on this one and the two previous, there are dozens. The RI has also been called back in we note. Interesting?
Keep going everyone.
Pre-disposition? Careful Craig, you’re straying into “us” and “them” territory, when showing that you were a “them”, by refusing to collaborate with the British state’s terror apparatus is what got you into such trouble.
The squaddie was a volunteer, knew the risks and took the money. It’s a pity he’s dead but no more a pity than are the hecatombs of dead his terrorist organisation has done so much to create. If the two killers had done the deed sitting down in a helicopter in Afghanistan, would they be labelled as monsters or “pre-disposed”? I doubt it.
“It is clear that some of the commenters are finding it difficult to accept that this was a heinous and unjustified act, carried out in the name of Islam.”
With so many other possibilities available why should people always plump for the ‘official’ narrative provided by politicians and media as if they are some kind of divine light of truth? There was no machete and equally there may be no ‘Muslim terrorists’ shouting Allah Akbhar and there may have been no ‘beheading’.
News has often been manufactured throughout history in order to advance a political agenda and this is simply a part of that, the events are real, the consequences are real but the motives are false.
A ‘royal commentator’ and the psychologist Linda Papadopoulos were reviewing the papers on Sky News. They thought this piece was excellent and helpfully reminded us that the H for H website crashed yesterday due to the deluge of visits. Truly heart warming they said.
You may laugh at the strange miscellany of names and faces here.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4940297/Top-Gear-host-Jeremy-Clarkson-and-other-celebrities-urge-people-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-murdered-Lee-Rigby-and-support-Help-for-Heroes.html
During the video interview of the ranting ‘terrorist’ he exhorts the viewers to ‘remove your government’ – now here’s a man who’s faith in Western democracy should put us all to shame.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE
Since the tragic news emerged that a serving soldier had been murdered in Woolwich, we have been overwhelmed with people
spontaneously choosing to show their support for the Armed Forces.
Help for Heroes was born out of a simple desire to assist the wounded and that remains unchanged. All funds we receive are used to provide direct, practical support to those affected by their service to our country.
We ask all our volunteers, fundraisers and donors to respect the victim’s family, colleagues and friends who are grieving.
If you do choose to support those who have been wounded, injured or become sick you can do so in the following ways:
By donating online or by texting “HERO” to 70900 to donate £5.
If you wish to buy supporter items from our shop, please go to shop.helpforheroes.org.uk.
If you have a media enquiry please email our team on [email protected] or call us on 01725 514 276
Team H4H
~~
Their trustees and patrons. All human life is there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help_for_Heroes
Income £46,703,000
Spending -£17,051,000
http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1120920&SubsidiaryNumber=0
I see the Advocate General is on the list of trustees. Another {military} judge advocate sent Ft Lt Kendall-Smith to prison plus £20,000 costs for refusing to return to Iraq.
A ruling on 22 March 2006, by the judge advocate Jack Bayliss, concurred. Bayliss dismissed Kendall-Smith’s argument, ruling that he must face trial by court martial and would not be allowed to argue that the order to deploy was illegal.[6] Obviating Kendall-Smith’s argument that any participation in the war effort was unlawful on the basis of an illegal invasion, Bayliss asserted that British forces had full justification under UN resolutions 1511 and 1546 to be in Iraq at the time the charges were filed against Kendall-Smith in June and July, 2005.[6] The judge advocate also rejected Kendall-Smith’s claim that by serving in Iraq he could be complicit in a crime of aggression. Such a crime “cannot be committed by those in relatively junior positions such as that of the defendant. If a defendant believed that to go to Basra would make him complicit in the crime of aggression, his understanding of the law was wrong,” Bayliss said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Kendall-Smith
A travesty.
Cleared diplomat John Yapp criticises Foreign Office
The former UK High Commissioner to Belize, who was removed from his post amid claims of sexual misconduct and bullying, has spoken of his “humiliating” fight to clear his name.
John Yapp, of Eastbourne, East Sussex, lost his post in 2008 over claims he inappropriately touched women.
The allegations were dropped but he then faced claims he had bullied staff.
The High Court ruled the Foreign and Commonwealth Office broke his contract and failed in its duty of care to him.
Mr Yapp said it had all been “profoundly humiliating”.
He said he had an unblemished diplomatic career for 37 years before a former foreign minister in Belize alleged he had inappropriately touched women.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-22646338
A mostly good post Craig but the conclusion is wrong, I believe.
You have described violent murders as sociopathic. Sociopaths are estimated to be around 2% of the population, yet most bloody killings in theatres of conflict are certainly not committed by sociopaths. Predisposition to violence is not necessarily an illness. It’s an extreme attribute of human nature.
Violent crimes should not be conflated with each other, either. We can’t begin to solve problems that lead to violent crime if we bundle them up and throw them together in the ‘too hard basket’. There are uniquely arbitrary outbursts of violence that have many explanations from mental illness and brain tumours to emotional rages of frustration and hatred. The murder of an Afghan child by a British soldier might fit into this category and should be studied to identify potential preventative measures.
But then there is purposeful cold-blooded violence like mafia murders, political assassinations and public executions. The UK had hanging, drawing and quatering on its books for high treason as late as the 19th century, I believe. This method of dealing with traitors was more bloody and savage than that suffered by the poor soldier, Lee Rigby. And it was purposeful with a terrifying message for anyone who had any ideas of undermining the crown. Terrorism, you could call it.
Michael Adebolajo is the alleged killer and, if we accept this without quibbling, we can say that he was certainly purposeful in his killing of Lee Rigby. But his purpose was not just to kill a British soldier, it was to send a terrifying message to people who are engaged in or appear to be associated with military action that results in the deaths of Muslims. Lee Rigby’s body was dragged onto the road in order to display his mutilated remains to the public. The murder was political in its purpose and consistent with the teachings of his faith. Terrorism, you might say.
What is the underlying cause? What are the common elements?
Is it too controversial to suggest that most violent crimes are committed by younger males who are fit and strong? Look at violent crime around the world. Ignore “race”, culture, religion and politics – most crimes are committed by younger males. Of course, some clever types will say that not all young males are predisposed to violence. And I say not all men are rapists. So what?
Many young males, the sort who you would have a beer with and watch a football game, will readily turn to violence when the conditions are right. Anybody see any riots lately?
And all of these males who are prepared to use violence under certain conditions are also readily programmable for violence in the name of a Great Cause. The 20th century is full of such causes. Young men who are ignorant, restless, emotionally immature, sexually excitable – all in search of a Great Cause into which they can channel their energies. All you need is an idea to put them to work.
Michael Adebolajo found a Great Cause – one that has over a thousand years of glorious history. When Michael spoke to a witness who recorded his statement on her phone, he was lucid, rational and apologetic for the impact the killing had on passing women. He described why he committed the murder and what he hoped to achieve.
Michael Adeboljo is not crazy. He is just a restless, lost soul who wants to be part of something Great.
I went to see a Dennis Potter play yesterday, Blue Remembered Hills. It was very well performed by Northern Stage. It was a Play for the Day in 1973 when the BBC commissioned decent thought-provoking drama.
Dennis Potter took the title from this wonderful little A E Housman poem.
Into my heart an air that kills
From yon far country blows:
What are those blue remembered hills,
What spires, what farms are those?
That is the land of lost content,
I see it shining plain,
The happy highways where I went
And cannot come again.
A synopsis.
‘On an idyllic summer afternoon in wartime, seven children play, tease and fight their day away. Willie is pretending to be a Spitfire, Raymond is dressed as a cowboy and Angela doesn’t want to share her china doll with Audrey. And while John and Peter are vying to be leader of the gang, who is that little boy left alone in the barn…? Amidst their hilarious games and complex friendships the merriment turns sour when they stumble into a sudden and unexpected tragedy that will change their lives forever.
Potter’s charming and profound play captures humanity, his wicked humour and his fierce intolerance of cruelty, reminding us that no-one is ever truly innocent.’
Potter speaks for our agony. There is no way to conjure back ‘the blue remembered hills’ unless by sheer will and with FACT. Take Question Time last night. A sensitive young man’s points re our arming of Saudi Arabia and about Palestine were squashed. They should have led to a discussion about ‘supreme war crimes’ and all that flows from them.
Guano has made merry of late with his little quips likening my comments to eggs.
He might do well to reflect pn the following : is it better to be a hen that lays eggs out of its backside or the other product that seagulls drop out of their backsides off the coasts of far-away Chile?
Grownups! Take some deep breaths there.
It seemed like the trolls were going to take over the assylum for a while. Even Dad appeared almost sane alongside Jemand.
Hats off to Technicolour and all who have tried so valiantly to reason with that particular meme.
Thanks to all (almost) for the mountain of info.
I have a question for Dad, RD and Mr Kempe. I would be interested to hear from you what is the annual death-toll in the, so called, “War on Terror,” for any of the last five years, in these categories.
1. Civilians of Muslim appearance.
2. Civilians of Christian appearance.
And, for each category, who produced / supplied the weapons?
And Jemand, I know you don’t do facts so this question isn’t addressed to you.
@ post at 09h19 :
a Denis Potter play – Question Time.
Connection? Relevance (to anything)?
I do note however that even April Shower’s extra-curricular activities are grist to her blog mill.
No Harold Hobson she.
The murder in Woolwich was part of Islamist terrorism which is an aggravating circumstance and justifies looking away the guilty parties for life as well as asking how such attacks might be prevented in future. I understand that one of them was a Islamist street ranter, so such people might need more careful watching.
The soldier who stabbed a child while under the influence deserved severe punishment for his drunken violence, but that was not the same type of crime.
Ok.
I know that’s asking too much, so I’ll ask instead, for every civilian victim of Islamist violence, how many civilian victims of “War on Terror” violence?
My guess is that one number will have one, or at most, two zeros, and the other will have many more.