To simply say “protestors good, government bad” in Turkey is a symptom of the Blair delusion, that in civil conflicts there are guys with white hats and guys with black hats, and that the West’s role is to ride into town and kill the guys in the black hats. That is what “liberal intervention” means. The main aim of my second autobiographical book, “The Catholic Orangemen of Togo”, was to explain through the truth of the Sierra Leone experience how very, very wrong this is.
In fact civil conflicts are usually horribly complex, anent a variety of very bad people all trying to gain or retain power, none of them from an altruistic desire to make the world a better place. There may be ordinary people on the streets with that altruistic desire, being used and manipulated by these men; but it is not the ordinary altruistic people on the streets who ever come to power. Ever.
In Turkey the heavy crushing of a rainbow of protests in Istanbul has been going on for at least a month now. A week ago I was discussing it with my publisher, whose son lives in the city. A fortnight ago I was in Istanbul myself.
The Turkish people I was with were natural Erdogan supporters, and what struck me very forcibly was the fact that he has sickened many of his own natural allies by the rampant corruption in Turkey at present. Almost everyone I met spoke to me about corruption, and Turkey being Turkey, everyone seemed to know a very great deal of detail about how corruption was organised in various building and development projects and who was getting what. It therefore is hardly surprising that the spark which caused this conflict to flare to a new level was ignited by a corrupt deal to build a shopping centre on a park. The desecration of something lovely for money could be a metaphor for late Erdogan government.
The park is very small beer compared to the massive corruption involved in the appalling and megalomaniac Bosphorus canal project. Everyone talked to me about that one. The mainstream media, who never seem to know what is happening anywhere, seem to have missed that a major cause of the underlying unrest in Istanbul was the government’s announcement eight weeks ago that the Bosphorus canal is going ahead.
People are also incensed by the new proposal that would ban the sale of alcohol within 100 metres of any mosque or holy site, ie anywhere within central Istanbul. That would throw thousands of people out of work, damage the crucial tourist trade and is rightly seen as a symptom of reprehensible mounting religious intolerance that endangers Turkish society.
So there are plenty of legitimate reasons to protest, and the appalling crushing of protest is the best of them
But – and this is what it is never in the interest of Western politicians to understand – Government bad does not equal protestors good. A very high proportion – more than the British public realise by a very long way – of those protesting in the streets are off the scale far right nationalists of a kind that make the BNP look cuddly and Nigel Farage look like Tony Benn. Kemalism – the worship of Ataturk and a very unpleasant form of military dominated nationalism – remains very strong indeed in Istanbul. Ataturk has a very strong claim, ahead of Mussolini, to be viewed as the inventor of modern fascism
For every secular liberal in Istanbul there are two secular ultra-nationalist militarists. To westerners they stress the secular bit and try to hide the rest, and this works on the uncurious (being uncurious is a required attribute to get employed by the mainstream media). Of course there are decent, liberal, environmentalist protestors and the media will have no difficulty, now they have finally noticed something is happening, in filling our screens with beautiful young women who fit that description, to interview. But that is not all of what is going on here.
There certainly was no more freedom in Turkey before the AKP came to power. Government for decades had been either by the Kemalist military in dictatorship or occasionally by civilian governments they tolerated and controlled. People suddenly have short memories if they think protest was generally tolerated pre-Erdogan, and policy towards the Kurds was massively more vicious.
The military elite dominated society and through corruption they dominated commerce and the economy. The interests of a protected and generally fascist urban upper middle class were the only interests that counted at all. The slightest threat to those interests brought a military coup – again, and again, and again. Religion was barely tolerated, and they allied closely with Israel and the United States.
When Erdogan first came to power it was the best thing that had happened to Turkey for decades. The forgotten people of the Anatolian villages, and the lower middle class of the cities, had a voice and a position in the state for the first time. In individual towns and villages, the military and their clients who had exercised absolute authority had their power suddenly diminished. I witnessed this and it was a new dawn, and it felt joyous.
Then of course Erdogan gradually got sucked in to power, to money, to NATO, to the corruption of his Black Sea mafia and to arrogance. It all went very wrong, as it always seems to. That is where we are now.
Yes of course I want those pretty, genuinely liberal environmentalist girls in the park to take power. But they won’t. Look at the hard-eyed fascists behind them. Look at the western politicians licking their lips thinking about the chance to get a nice very right wing, anti-Muslim and pro-Israel government into power.
We should all be concerned at what is happening in Turkey. We should all call for an end to violent repression. But to wish the overthrow of a democratically elected government, and its replacement – by what exactly? – is a very, very foolish reaction.
Anony
3 Jun, 2013 – 10:10 pm
“I’m not surprised. Many ambassadors have a flawed view of the world. Call it a disease related to the profession they chose.”
Anony interesting observation that. It has occurred to me earlier that it is a professional hazard amongst diplomats whereby they are very eager to present themselves as ‘experts’. But, the word expert is related to experience. Just as a little knowledge is dangerous, so a little actual experience gained through brief or even longer visits (visits nevertheless) is dangerous.
———
According to Craig “Until Erdogan came to power, the headscarf was banned.”
Can someone help me please? Is that statement correct? Or is it that it was banned only in the Public Sector and perhaps schools and universities?
———
Also i saw the Turkish President on CNN say that there never was a plan to build upon the Teksim Gezi Park. Amanpour looked on disbelievingly. I thought i’ve heard Erdogan speak to the contrary.
Lets get the facts straight. Its encouraging to see as many Turkish people comment here. Appreciate anyone’s help.
There seems to be a lot of disinformation out there.
Craig, You really don’t know much. Do you? And you used this “soviet” card to make yourself seem right.
There are many places, which do not have the compulsory rules to put up Ataturk images. Yet, they do anyway. even your rebuffing of churchill parallel is showing your bias. really? Still talking of soviet traditions? What are you going to say about bombing of Dresden? Does it fit your criteria of Churchill being what he is? Or is he still too not soviet to compare with the regime in Turkey?
Ataturk wanted to be the president. Yet, this doesn’t really show much. Because he was the leader even before the founding of the republic. Are you going to deny that too?
Are you going to talk about the many aspects of western society who was also fond of Hitler? Or are you going to just base your argument on just one view of Inonu before the second world war? Then what are you going to say about Churchill who many times sat on the same table with Inonu?
“Get over this ludicrous cult of personality. Have some thoughts of your own. Admit the fate of the Armenians, Greeks and others who were massacred by Ataturk in modern day Turkey. Do those things and then start to expect a sympathetic hearing from the West.”
You don’t know much. Do you? It’s expected. But also disappointing. When did Ataturk ever have power to massacre Armenians? He was just a general in gallipoli or south at the time. I just read a hit piece by one of Erdogan’s campaign writers to badmouth the founding of the republic.
Even those people can’t actually find any evidence to tie Ataturk to the Armenian massacre? Wihch is normal, because at that time Ataturk wasn’t even well liked by central authority figures in Istanbul or Germany!
And massacre of greeks. Tell me, did you read about the orders of Ataturk to protect non muslim people in Izmir, otherwise be punished by death? Do you have any evidence of a rule by him or others to kill greeks? Or are you going to blame Ataturk because it’s convenient?
And headscarves ban weren’t in place before 80s. Also, it’s very funny that you still don’t want to see the words or actions to build up a new turkish identity. One with head scarves.
You really must be one of the “mentors” of our “real” ” liberal” people in turkey. Because those idiots have the tendency to call others who oppose headscarves, fascists too. Even though, the ideology associated with the cloth is much more repressive than nationalists’.
I ,for one, don’t oppose headscarves in universities or when they get government services. But to call others fascists over it. Are you really that ignorant?
Wow, and i thought only some far right leaning money hungry press in turkey thought that.
The headscarf certainly wasn’t banned universally. (personal observation, 1995)and I saw quite a few ladies in the full black robe bit-in İstanbul. However, beards and headscarves were I believe banned in some if not all universities.
People are fond of equating the far-right ultras with Kemal, but my feeling is that, certainly in the West of the country, his shakeout of the constitution, de-Arabising the language, ending the influence of the religious in government, etc, etc, were just about right, and the majority regard his memory with affection. Likewise, they genuinely regard deviations from his principles as undesirable.
As fascists go, the Young Turks Jemal, Enver, and the revolting Talaat were truer to type than Kemal – he was a definite improvement on what had gone before.
Anıny:
Affedersiniz! Our posts crossed. Yours says it better.
There should of course, be apologies for any Greek to have died in vain when Turkey was in war with Greece.
“Anony interesting observation that. It has occurred to me earlier that it is a professional hazard amongst diplomats whereby they are very eager to present themselves as ‘experts’. But, the word expert is related to experience. Just as a little knowledge is dangerous, so a little actual experience gained through brief or even longer visits (visits nevertheless) is dangerous.”
And those are the people who,Erdogan deliberately talks Turkey with. It really helped him with Eu affairs. Build up your political opponents as oppressor of people. And Craig fell for it. Even though, the guy was oppressing Alevis when he was just a local representative in municipality! He tore down Alevi’s cemevi (a mosque like place) yet he was for the people when he came to power. Give me break!
“According to Craig “Until Erdogan came to power, the headscarf was banned.”
Can someone help me please? Is that statement correct? Or is it that it was banned only in the Public Sector and perhaps schools and universities?”
In 80s, headscarves were banned,then the issue was contested. Because central authority figures were afraid of Islamism; the were opposed to it. I think they were wrong. But they were right about the proponents of headscarves. We see that very strongly today.
Then in the 90s, the islamist came to power then talked about having headscraves everywhere. And talked down to others, who drank just one glass of alcohol! Or they badmouthed secularism.
That’s why headscarves were banned again.
And now, head scarves are still somewhat banned,Erdogan is happy with that. Because if that issue persists, Erdogan will always have an issue to excite his base with it. And he will be able to make his base listen to his extremist ideas.
Recently, his talk about alcoholics who gave permission to drink alcohol and his oppposition to public displays of affection is the cause of much anger in turkey. He doesn’t like that young people are hugging in public.
“Or is it that it was banned only in the Public Sector and perhaps schools and universities?”
That’s true.
“Also i saw the Turkish President on CNN say that there never was a plan to build upon the Teksim Gezi Park. Amanpour looked on disbelievingly. I thought i’ve heard Erdogan speak to the contrary.
Lets get the facts straight. Its encouraging to see as many Turkish people comment here. Appreciate anyone’s help.
There seems to be a lot of disinformation out there.”
Erdogan is lying. Even yesterday, he was saying that he was going to build it.
You see, this is what we are against. A majority ruling party who lies to everyone including their own base. And their supporters in west like here.
There should of course, be apologies for any Greek to have died in vain when Turkey was in war with Greece.
“Anony interesting observation that. It has occurred to me earlier that it is a professional hazard amongst diplomats whereby they are very eager to present themselves as ‘experts’. But, the word expert is related to experience. Just as a little knowledge is dangerous, so a little actual experience gained through brief or even longer visits (visits nevertheless) is dangerous.”
And those are the people who,Erdogan deliberately talks Turkey with. It really helped him with Eu affairs. Build up your political opponents as oppressor of people. And Craig fell for it. Even though, the guy was oppressing Alevis when he was just a local representative in municipality! He tore down Alevi’s cemevi (a mosque like place) yet he was for the people when he came to power. Give me break!
“According to Craig “Until Erdogan came to power, the headscarf was banned.”
Can someone help me please? Is that statement correct? Or is it that it was banned only in the Public Sector and perhaps schools and universities?”
In 80s, headscarves were banned,then the issue was contested. Because central authority figures were afraid of Islamism; the were opposed to it. I think they were wrong. But they were right about the proponents of headscarves. We see that very strongly today.
Then in the 90s, the islamist came to power then talked about having headscraves everywhere. And talked down to others, who drank just one glass of alcohol! Or they badmouthed secularism.
That’s why headscarves were banned again.
And now, head scarves are still somewhat banned,Erdogan is happy with that. Because if that issue persists, Erdogan will always have an issue to excite his base with it. And he will be able to make his base listen to his extremist ideas.
Recently, his talk about alcoholics who gave permission to drink alcohol and his oppposition to public displays of affection is the cause of much anger in turkey. He doesn’t like that young people are hugging in public.
“Or is it that it was banned only in the Public Sector and perhaps schools and universities?”
That’s true.
“Also i saw the Turkish President on CNN say that there never was a plan to build upon the Teksim Gezi Park. Amanpour looked on disbelievingly. I thought i’ve heard Erdogan speak to the contrary.
Lets get the facts straight. Its encouraging to see as many Turkish people comment here. Appreciate anyone’s help.
There seems to be a lot of disinformation out there.”
Erdogan is lying. Even yesterday, he was saying that he was going to build it.
You see, this is what we are against. A majority ruling party who lies to everyone including their own base. And their supporters in west like here.
To be honest about military rule, military mindedness whatever you call it, it was something you got crushed with. On the other hand police rule, it is constant torture. It is big brother comes to life. You know, you walk in the street and need to behave when you see a policeman? Some police hits you in the face when you kiss your girl friend? You don’t see that from military, you get tortured when they get you. You get tortured when you are in jail, but again with the police, it is your normal life – daily amount of terror.
I don’t expect military to jump back, hope not. Maybe someone will try to play some game, even Erdogan himself, but this is not really about politics, big plans – but the daily life we have.
Don’t defend Erdogan just because it is economically/politically logical. Why do you think it is the young people putting the fight? In a simple clash, even the hard core union can stand only a few hours. These people are there for days now. It can turn into an orange revolution, a military invocation, but they will stand against the Tyranny, because freedom is that nice.
That is just scraping the bottom of the barrel. You are addressing a man who stood up to his government/employer and lost his job as an ambassador (ambassadorships don’t come in cornflake boxes, and are the result of fucking hard work, toil, sweat, and personal qualities) in protestation to the collusion in torture of the said employer. Bang went his job, his perks and his fucking pension. You then come and accuse this guy of taking the AKP lira ?
This is emotional pap, and further height of being unfair, and moreover rudeness.
The first step is to unlearn the bullshit that has been programmed into you. Churchill in UK these days is personified as the little puppet dog, who advertises insurance mate, anyway if he was so great why on Earth soon after the war he was tossed out on his ears by the electorate? There is no comparisons there, and fact that every Turkish nationalist talks of Churchill perhaps these ought to think of adopting him.
No it is not, it is similar to “Cedar Revolution” all the “protesters” are waving their Turkish flag. The arc of instability finally reaches to Turkey through Turks own volition.
How much does AKP pay you to do their lobby in your country????
“That is just scraping the bottom of the barrel. You are addressing a man who stood up to his government/employer and lost his job as an ambassador (ambassadorships don’t come in cornflake boxes, and are the result of fucking hard work, toil, sweat, and personal qualities) in protestation to the collusion in torture of the said employer. Bang went his job, his perks and his fucking pension. You then come and accuse this guy of taking the AKP lira ?
This is emotional pap, and further height of being unfair, and moreover rudeness.
The first step is to unlearn the bullshit that has been programmed into you. Churchill in UK these days is personified as the little puppet dog, who advertises insurance mate, anyway if he was so great why on Earth soon after the war he was tossed out on his ears by the electorate? There is no comparisons there, and fact that every Turkish nationalist talks of Churchill perhaps these ought to think of adopting him.”
The guy is doing a political hit job with his site. To be this like minded with the guys who gave Erdogan this much power, is bound to raise suspicion.
Maybe he still likes to think he is relevant,when his tlaking points is 5 years old and used up. If you come with this kind of thinking to protestors in Turkey, even the ones who will agree to some of his points, will laugh at him. Because it’s past time to talk about drivel of Erdogan’s demoracratically elected government.
Also no one really likes Churchill, he was involved with the government of Lloyd George. That’s reason enough.
“The headscarf certainly wasn’t banned universally. (personal observation, 1995)and I saw quite a few ladies in the full black robe bit-in İstanbul. However, beards and headscarves were I believe banned in some if not all universities.
People are fond of equating the far-right ultras with Kemal, but my feeling is that, certainly in the West of the country, his shakeout of the constitution, de-Arabising the language, ending the influence of the religious in government, etc, etc, were just about right, and the majority regard his memory with affection. Likewise, they genuinely regard deviations from his principles as undesirable.
As fascists go, the Young Turks Jemal, Enver, and the revolting Talaat were truer to type than Kemal – he was a definite improvement on what had gone before.”
Yabancılar bunu anlamak istemiyorlar. Her gün ülkelerinde yabancı düşmanlığı yapılan Avrupalılar hala insan yargılamakla meşguller. Güzel yazmışsınız.
A brief summary of the situation.
More emotional pap, in defence of the earlier outburst.
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?
Ever heard of: “the last Bastion of any scoundrel is Nationalism”?
Finally, why on Earth do Turkish Kemalists keep going on about the fucking booze sodden fat bastard constantly? If no one likes Churchill.
Says Yabancılar, yabancı düşmanlığı …..
Not ultras at all, not at all, not at all
“is doing a political hit job with his site.
More emotional pap, in defence of the earlier outburst.
Because it’s past time to talk about drivel of Erdogan’s demoracratically elected government.
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?
Ever heard of: “the last Bastion of any scoundrel is Nationalism”?
Finally, why on Earth do Turkish Kemalists keep going on about the fucking booze sodden fat bastard constantly? If no one likes Churchill.”
Funny. Not going to talk about the legitimacy of Turkish government with you. Sorry, that’s your emotional pap. And i’m not going to let someone else projects let their feelings onto me.
If you have a talking point to back up Erdogan’s current position.Use it. Otherwise, it’s all air. Like the pm said.
“Yabancılar bunu anlamak istemiyorlar.
Says Yabancılar, yabancı düşmanlığı …..
Not ultras at all, not at all, not at all”
Aaaand. You just lost, any chance of a real conversation with me. Thanks for the laughs.
By the way, yabancılar means foreigners,people not of Turkey origin. Notice s/he added “düşmanlığı”, which means prejudice or hatred. That’s the propaganda we are against in Turkey.
To use that to imply i’m an ultra “anything” is just grasping at straws. Sorry, but not interested.
@Fedup
“all the “protesters” are waving their Turkish flag”
Maybe that’s where you are mistaken. They don’t, simply they don’t. Mostly they are using it to protect themselves from police or to cherish the unity with all people.
I think we didn’t get our fair share of foreign involvement and have enough legacy to find our way out of this. Money also needs to flow. I think it will be nice at the end but through struggle.
That’s the way, we expose propagandists; we use any words they could use in our messages they can latch onto. S/he used just 2 words without translation to call me an ultra.
Thanks for proving my point:
This is the video of police using gas, even though people are calling on them not to. People are saying there are children and they can’t breathe. Yet they keep firing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-hND9jXY-NI
It’s all about Realpolitik here flavored with some historical conservatism.
The question is not whose ruling and how he got into power, but to think about how power of privileged people over the rest can come to an end, getting replaced by free association of the people without governments, states and borders. So the question is how people can manage to prevent getting ruled permanently.
Therefore any uprising will fail which does not realize this. Crying for another ruler or new elections is surely not the way to change anything…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=899d2F0i0kE
That’s what’s happpening.
Keep talking to me about demographics in Turkey.
@Habbabkuk (La Vita È Bella!)
As I said “So was Hitler” I meant Hitler was a selected leader, too, no matter of rates*. I mentioned the rates because Craig listed results of the last election above. I just meant that should the vast of election rates give the governments endless, undisputably power and control on any process in the country-in our case including justice? What about the rest of the population? What about the minorities? (Trust me we have so many different minorities in terms of religion, race, political views etc.)
In any case of dispute, he always uses his card of being selected by huge crowd.
When this protests began Erdogan gave a speech and said “No matter what you do, we gave our final decision.” then people who were really sick of his totalitarian arrogant behaviours went to support this small environmentalist group. Then police raised the excessive use of power. And the day after crowds became more angry. Then, The government censored the broadcasting. Then it become a fight for freedom of speech., because just a few weeks ago Reyhanli Town(very close Syrian border) was bombed and dozens of people dead. I can not give the exact number because after the bombing the government banned the national s about this incident. Because people were protesting the Erdogan and call resignition of Erdogan during the Live broadcasting in Reyhanli. Thanks to social media, we received many videos weshare them. We realized what the distatorship is because you know people are dying in that moment but none of the press member could dare to broadcast it. You have to watch BBC or other international canals to learn whats going on in your own country. I think the Media pressure about the Taksim is one of the biggest reasons that triggered that social explosion.
You may see how this protests began, day by day http://showdiscontent.com/
These protests are about freedom of speech, suppression of the government, brutality of Police-People dead and many people lost their eyes since police aims the protestors’ heads when they are firing the gas bombs. Our previous governments were always oppressive. But today’s biggest difference is the social media. Thanks to social media we hear about the facts without censorship.
You may find some links about the censorship in Turkey, as
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IiXIciZLg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22753542
And this beatiful young muslim lady says she supports the protests,
she says : these people are not extremist these are the people who are oppressed, ignored etc. Prime Minister should ask their opinion, too. If he is a PM, he must ask.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=456476781108221
And the other muslims support the protests as you may see
https://twitter.com/isyanveislam
In a nutshell, these protests are not about politcs, religion or regime.
This movement is about freedom of speech, being heard and democracy.
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_July_1932
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election,_November_1933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936
o değil de hafız senin sipariş yazıların vizitesi nedir şimdi? benim yeğenin ingilizce dönem ödevi var da, hani ampullerle anlaştığın gibi fiyatta anlaşabilirsek sana ihale edelim diyorum, olar mı?
Occupy Wall Street activist talks about the demonstrations from Istanbul:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=NR1S_U3636w
I have seen it over and again, and no it is not shocking any more, after Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Libya, these are small beer.
Don’t skirt the issue, and answer the questions;
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?
==================
Well I never!
Propaganda, is what you are busy forcing as the main stream view in Turkey mate.
================================
Yeah that is what the Lebanese were doing too. Gene sharp and Otpor ought to be pretty proud of themselves for the results and justification of these for earning millions for their meagre living.
Erdogan is doing it his way, and, like Ecevit, not explaining anything for most covert reasons.
Komodo and Anony, thanks for your replies.
Just to repeat, i saw Gul, the President go on CNN and say they never planned to rebuild over the Gezi Park. He was lying through his teeth wasn’t he? Its the principle.
Anony what is a far-right ultra stereotype? I’m trying to educate myself for context.
People keep lapsing back into deep history. How helpful is that, other than to academics?
Fedup wants to know “What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
Get over it.
“yabancılar means foreigners,people not of Turkey origin. Notice s/he added “düşmanlığı”, which means prejudice or hatred. That’s the propaganda we are against in Turkey.
Well I never!
Propaganda, is what you are busy forcing as the main stream view in Turkey mate.”
Of course, you would never do that. Think,i didn’t notice the tactic of giving examples of failed reforms and revolutions in the near past? It’s very well used on tv of government leaning people or groups in Turkey.
There’s no mainstream propaganda because there is no mainstream to oppose the regime. The media can’t even be unbiased towards protesters!
“Don’t skirt the issue, and answer the questions;
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
No, you lost the opportunity to have a meaningful conversation when you called me an ultra without any evidence.
I refuse to give you openings to use as talking points. You think electorate supports erdogan when he wants to demolish parks, scold teenagers? even the biased author here, is talking about how Erdogan’s own supporters are against him and are out on the streets protesting him.
You want answers? Change your tactic of persuasion. You want info? There are links(videos and such) i and many people provided here. Go,check them out.
Alphabet “issue” is frankly comical. In turkey no one but far far right talks about such an “issue”. And has nothing to do with protester’s rights or the author’s smear. And the fact you had to resort to it, shows your inability to come up with anything but “emotional pap” argument.
“Alphabet “issue” is frankly comical. In turkey no one but far far right talks about such an “issue”. And has nothing to do with protester’s rights or the author’s smear. And the fact you had to resort to it, shows your inability to come up with anything but “emotional pap” argument.’
Our posts crossed i reckon. Thats my observation too.
“Komodo and Anony, thanks for your replies.
Just to repeat, i saw Gul, the President go on CNN and say they never planned to rebuild over the Gezi Park. He was lying through his teeth wasn’t he? Its the principle.
Anony what is a far-right ultra stereotype? I’m trying to educate myself for context.
People keep lapsing back into deep history. How helpful is that, other than to academics?
Fedup wants to know “What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
Get over it.”
Gul has been a party-first president since he was elected. He was so pro akp,he stopped reading the laws he was supposed to approve, so they can become official. Once, he approved a law required to arrest people who weren’t guilty. If only,he read it before signing it !
Far-right ultra. Hates Alevis, hates secularists,hates ataturk,hates modern women,hates non muslims, hates armenians and greeks. Once they accused the head of main opposition party being of armenian origins.
They like sultans of ottoman empire, caliphs and make up stories of their own convenient to their ideal world. They hate alcohol even though one of their favorite sultans, Abdulhamid, drinked alcohol. They hate opera and theatre, Abdulhamid built a opera house just for himself.
Recently they named the third bridge,which costed us many trees, after selim the grim. One who killed tens of thousands of alevis.
According to west, these conservatives were “okay”,like you see in this writer’s blog, because far-far right hates secularist and nationalistic military which were no saints but didn’t support the invasion plans of Iraq directly.
‘”People keep lapsing back into deep history. How helpful is that, other than to academics?
Fedup wants to know “What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
Get over it.”‘
They can’t seem to get over it,unfortunately. Because they know their like minds are in power, they expect us to see it as a legitimate issue. sad but funny.
“Erdogan is doing it his way, and, like Ecevit, not explaining anything for most covert reasons.”
If only, he was as open minded as Ecevit.
Erdogan’s problem is that he got too much power too easily. He never had to deal with coalitions. Then he had kiss ass people supporting him to select judiciary members single handedly. Which is unbelievably idiotic.
You fucking get over it.
==================
Don’t tell me, what a great loss? I won’t sleep for a week now!
You find this funny? The Europhile Kemal dislocating the whole of the nation, by destroying the heritage of that nation overnight (those who control the past, control the present, and those who control the present control the future), and then sending his “alphabet inspectors” to pick random citizens and test them for their knowledge of the new alphabet with a beating awaiting those citizens whom failed the said test. There is revisionism and then there is down right blind mendacity.
They don’t need any help, they are doing just fine on their own.
Finally for the third time:
“Don’t skirt the issue, and answer the questions;
What is the demography of Turkey?
What percentage of the electorate are supporting his reforms?
What is the relevance of the Ghost of ata Turk to the current Turkey? That man dislocated the whole of the Turkish nation to the extent of ignoring and destroying the wealth of inherited literature by introducing the Latin Alphabet?”
Fedup
4 Jun, 2013 – 3:57 pm
“Get over it.
You fucking get over it.”
Is that all you could come up with you pathetic little twit. As Anony alluded you are scraping the barrel. I don’t for the most part bother to read your lengthy senile diatribes. Given your response to me, i think it serves as a fair warning to others.