Yanukovich and Kabbah

by craig on March 4, 2014 11:08 am in Uncategorized

My old boss Mark Lyall Grant, UK Ambassador to the United Nations, is a deeply unpleasant man.  But he was quite right to dismiss Russia’s legal pretext for invading Ukraine on the basis of an invitation letter from ex-President Yanukovich.

The problem is Mark Lyall Grant is the last person in world to have moral authority to do this, as he was directly involved in drafting an invitation letter from ex-President Kabbah of Sierra Leone inviting Britain to invade Sierra Leone, which Britain then did.  Mark Lyall Grant said at the UN yesterday about Yanukovich that:  “We are talking about a former leader who abandoned his office, his capital and his country, whose corrupt governance brought his country to the brink of economic ruin”.  Exactly the same things could have been said about Kabbah, whose government had been massively corrupt – and was again when restored, and who issued his invitation to invade from a five star hotel in London after living in exile in Guinea.

The unspeakable horrors of the Sierra Leonean civil war have led to a lazy mainstream media accepting Sierra Leone as the “good” invasion.  But the civil wars in Liberia and Sierra Leone were not a spontaneous outbreak of human evil, they were caused by the massive corruption of ruling coastal elites in both Sierra Leone and neighbouring Liberia, compared to the appalling poverty and lack of basic services and education for those in the hinterland.  It is one of the ironies of history that the elites were the descendants of slaves returned with the very best of intentions by the US and UK, educated and given much charitable provision, who controlled the state and then set to exploiting the hinterland tribes ruthlessly from the “hut wars” of the 1880’s on.  The eruption of massive scale diamond mining from the 1960’s on escalated levels of corruption, warlordism and violence and almost continual military rule.  Laudable attempts to foster democracy did nothing to lessen corruption.  The dreadful atrocities of the RUF and Kamajors were a result of the tribal eruption that ensued.

What the British invasion did was simply to put the old corrupt elite safely back in place, and make the minerals secure for western interests.  Even more valuable than the diamonds is Sierra Leone’s rutile mine, the world’s single most profitable mine.  Following the British invasion guess who suddenly became a director of that mine? Valerie Amos, who was one of the ministers who authorized the invasion, and is now at the UN in charge of pushing for war in Syria.

I always opposed the doctrine of “liberal intervention” and still do.  But those who invented “the right to protect” were stupid enough to believe that they would forever be the only military power strong enough to seize assets in other countries.  For the historian, the “right to protect” and “liberal intervention” are precisely the same as excuses given for imperial grabs throughout the millennia.

Invading another territory is wrong when the British do it, and it is wrong when the Russians do it.  It is quite simply untrue that ethnic Russians were under threat in the Ukraine.  International law always recognizes and deals with the government actually in power in the country.  If ousted leaders are accepted as having in the right to call in freeing invasion to restore them, the world would be in a state of perpetual war.

Plainly Russian actions are illegal.  They do have an agreed right to station forces in Crimea.  It is impossible to tell at the moment if the agreed numbers have been exceeded, but the Russian production of Yanukovich’s letter would certainly appear to indicate that.  But Russian actions in blocking roads and blockading Ukrainian military bases on Ukrainian soil are plainly illegal.

Russia is behaving as what it is, an imperialist thug.  The British and the United States indeed lack any moral authority to make such a statement.  But I do not suffer from that handicap, and nor do you.

 

 

PS The story of my Sierra Leone involvement is in my book The Catholic Orangemen of Togo.  This is available for free download in a number of places around the web, including here.

 

 

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320 Comments

  1. BrianFujisan

    5 Mar, 2014 - 1:47 am

    All True Clark….

    But the A bombs were not used in anger either….Fabricated Anger Perhaps

    Alcanon… I hate how they KEEP using First Nations Names for their fucking war Projects…. i made a stunning Sculpture of [ Chief Looking Glass ]… on Earthlings foto

  2. Clark,

    Haven’t heard anything sounding like the Woodpecker today. But definitely yesterday I thought Woodpecker as soon as I heard it. Just waiting for Radio Moscow World Service to re-appear now and I’m back in the 70s.

  3. Fascinating yet worrying that so many here have bought the absurd Manichean narrative-conveniently media driven-that it’s NATO/US/UK versus Russia…

    Its all bollocks yet so many of you seem to have bought it.

    All sides mentioned above are working to the same end.

    Follow the real money.

    Think about it.

  4. BrianFujisan

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:13 am

    Squonk…

    Can you please delete my last comment…i can re- post Art from alt source

  5. Brian,

    I assume you mean post on squonk? Done.

  6. BrianFujisan

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:34 am

    Ahh Thank you Squonk…. i hope you looked at it first Lol…

    But it led to my Personal shit..i did not realize that… i thought it was just the image….
    Thank you…owe ya one.

  7. Brian,

    I did click your FB link but got a “This content is not currently available” error message.

  8. BrianFujisan

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:54 am

    AA… i’ll do it over at yours … i’m sure you will love it… Where to put your eyes….Stand by..

  9. “Overhang this is Out Phase(?)”. Is this USAF code prefix premier night?

  10. “Premiere”

  11. Ba'al Zevul (यह अच्छा जीवन)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 8:39 am

    F-15’s and V22’s up last night. Don’t think you’ll be hearing Woodpecker – it was an early HF over-horizon radar and has been replaced by Dnestr (VHF) and Voronezh (UHF) radars since 1989. And if we had any sense at all we’d stay out of this particular spat. The Ukrainians have far more awareness of the Russian mindset on the Crimea than we have, and in particular, Kerry and Hague have. They speak the language fluently, too.

  12. Ba'al Zevul (यह अच्छा जीवन)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 8:51 am

    “That is why I embrace[trust] President Влади́мир Влади́мирович Пу́тин Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin.”

    Mark, honestly.

    There used to be an old bat on the Pravda.ru forum – which tended to be even less concerned with facts than Pravda The Newspaper, and largely unconnected with it – who would post paeans of praise to “Vladimir Putin – God’s Anointed Autocratic Tsar”

    Exactly, but not in a good way.

    He’s a politician, Mark.

  13. Thanks Clark for the clarification. I can’t possibly argue against your knowledge, nor would I want to. Let’s just say then that the US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons.

    I know where to come if I need any knowledge on nuclear issues. :)

    I bet that smiley face does not work.

  14. I was wrong about the smiley face! :)

    “The crisis is not about Ukraine at all, but rather about putting the squeeze on Russia. It also serves as yet another distraction to switch people’s focus from one fabricated crisis to another, to prevent any sustained examination of the looming systemic failure of global capitalism. Nothing beats a fake revolution to preempt a real one.” Analysis by Gilbert Mercier.

    http://newsjunkiepost.com/2014/03/04/ukraine-the-new-cold-war-heats-up/

  15. Ba'al Zevul (यह अच्छा जीवन)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 9:28 am

    TACAMO home site – the Images tab has many pictures of white E6 comms planes (old 707’s, modified) for comparison with your sightings. But this link is to the gungho/management bollocks with which the very technical militaries seems to be prone – Frederick Pohl predicted something of the sort

    http://www.tacamo.navy.mil/vq3/vq3_home.html

    Team Iron Man – wireless ops in a very comfortable a/c, lol.

  16. Craig, I think you have misunderstood the position of those on the left who “support” Russia in the current crisis. Like you I have no time for Putin but as someone who used to work in the foreign office I’d have thought you’d have a greater sense of realpolitik. The sins of Russia’s imperial past are not about to be erased. The Black Sea Fleet is based in Crimea whether you like it or not and if you lead the Russian government you’d want to secure it too. The reality in Crimea is that most people there feel they should be part of Russia rather than Ukraine and this feeling would have been bolstered by the Ukranian mob declaring that Ukrainian is the only legitimate language.
    By continuing to oppose Russia, the likely outcome would be armed conflict in a country where a lot of people own guns and fascist sentiments are common. Do you really want to see people dying and suffering in order to protect a principle while the much bigger and more powerful empire benefits? Let’s remember how this crisis started.

  17. Russia allowed to have 25,000 troops in Crimea since 1999… & other facts you may not know

    http://rt.com/news/russian-troops-crimea-ukraine-816/

  18. What I find so depressing about Craig’s series of posts on events in the Ukraine is his resolute refusal to deal with – or apparently even SEE – the big picture. Russia too has a point of view. Craig characterises it as ‘Imperialist’ and Putin as a ‘Thug’, in a yah-boo manner reminiscent the John McCains and Victoria Nulands of this world – nice company eh?. It simply destroys his credibility in my eyes. Russia as imperialist empire-builder was undoubtedly true of the old Tsarist regime – even its successor and foreign-grafted Bolshevik model – but to frame present day Russia as ‘Imperialist’ when it is clearly fighting for its very survival as a State independent of the uni-polar globalist agenda powers, is not merely a stretch, it is either niave or willfully dishonest – take your pick (with ‘dishonesty’ likely a subliminal, cognitive-dissonance defence – ie the lines we cannot cross etc). Whichever, it is effectively in service to the globalist agenda.

  19. Understanding the Crisis in Ukraine

    March 4, 2014
    http://www.bollyn.com/#article_14573

    Sorry Craig but I don’t think you have it right this time…with respect.

  20. John Goss, thinking of what the US did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki makes me feel like crying; on occasions, I have. Oh, I know those two bombs only account for a small fraction of the deaths of WWII, I know the US couldn’t manufacture nukes fast enough and basically only had their bluff to project. It’s just the vast, overwhelming destructive force used against unprepared families. All those people, the young and old, their pets, their homes, all the links between them and what they meant to each other, all their love and care for each other, all just gone in an eye-blink, just flattened, smashed, vaporised, not a trace left. And then around them the survivors, seared, burned, irradiated and in agony, and everything they recognised just a second ago utterly obliterated. It’s unimaginable. And then America did it again.

  21. I personally would like to see justice done and see Putin’s name on a list of people awaiting trial at The Hague. Below Bush and Blair and all the others. Any other way would not be justice.

    While they can call water boarding “enhanced interrogation” and make it not torture they should not be able to call the Russian soldiers in Crimea an invasion. Take a look at some pictures of the D Day landings, that’s what an invasion looks like, take a look at the invasion of Iraq.

  22. Wikispooks and others, when you consider Craig’s perspective, consider his experiences. Consider the torturer Karimov of Uzbekistan, a typical product of the break-up of the Soviet Union and still connected to the Russian power base. Consider Uzbekistan’s torture and the Andijan Massacre. Consider all the asylum seekers Craig has helped to escape from that Russian-supported system, who would disappear and suffer agony if their government got hold of them again, just for speaking the truth.

    Craig has been much closer to the atrocious monster which is the Russian political system than most of us will ever be. He knows it in a way most of us never can, and wouldn’t ever want to. He only just managed to save Nadira from it. Read Murder in Samarkand again.

  23. Clark, I couldn’t agree more. There was a classic photograph of children trying to get away from the city with a little girl naked in the middle of the road. She survived, but the images of Hiroshima will never leave her mind. Here is another, because from the WWII, through Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and all the more recent drone-strikes, there appears to be something in the US government psyche that makes them think that death and wounding of non-Americans does not hurt.

    http://www.hiroshima-remembered.com/photos/effects/image7.html

  24. Clark, my comment related to your previous comment not the one directly above it.

  25. Clark & John

    Yup, and the conventional fire-bombing of Tokyo – over 100,000 burned to death in deliberately created firestorm – was even more horrific, if such a thing is possible.

  26. Clarke

    I know you mean well but spare me the lectures please. “The monster that is the Russian political system” eh? Now precisely which ‘political system’ would that be?

    The Tzarist; the Bolshevik; the Yeltsin/Jewish oligarch financed-Russia plundering-Western backed coup regime of 1992-99 whose non-extraditable criminals now keep our ‘national game’ afloat and are thus lauded as heroes; or the Present one struggling to prise Russia from the Western maw?

    I can easily credit you with being plain naive. Much less so Craig.

    And I just listened to Craig’s last/latest?? political party spokesman Vince Cable on the subject. EXACTLY the same diagnosis “Putin the thug must back-off and stop supporting the illegal so-called self-defence militias” – ILLEGAL SO_CALLED SELF-DEFENCE MILITIAS I kid you not – “springing up in the Eastern ukraine”. If Cable had 10% the popular support Putin does he’d have something to crow about. Same goes for ALL our political leaders. Which planet do they, Craig and the entire western MSM – singling in unison from EXACTLY the same hym sheet – inhabit I have to ask myself? ZOB? Don’t you find it just an itsy-itsy-ITSY-bit odd?

  27. Hague has had talks with Kerry regarding the future of Russia. What this means is that Kerry has given him his instructions from our masters across the Atlantic.

    There is no way that Russia will send a senior politician to talk with an unelected government’s acting foreign minister of Ukraine. The stupidity of Hague believing that this might be a possibility shows just how naive our key representatives are. Our western governments, instead of offering open cheques for a government (of thugs and Nazis) that has overthrown the elected government, should be working towards elections, because that is what democracy is about. The west is trying to blow this up into something bigger than what it is. If those who have currently appointed themselves wish to stand for election then there is no reason why they should not.

  28. And here’s confirmation of what cognitively unimpaired followers of events in the Ukraine who studied the contemporary video and similarly knee-jerk western reporting were close to certain about about soon afterwards. It was NOT Yanukovych’s security police shooting at the Maidan protestors – and killing 13 policemen in the process; it was those orchestrating their own beloved protestors – classic Gladio-style black-ops stuff IOW.

    Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders – leaked EU’s Ashton phone tape

    Another pesky ‘Victoria Nuland’-like embarrassment eh? – but I’m sure A way will be found to rationalise it away. “It was all the fault of the victims” – or simply ignoring it.

  29. Thanks for the concern John much appreciated. Heads up from Jives – Cheers. Ashton’s leaked telecon is interesting…

    http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/

  30. Wikispooks, I’m referring to the Russian system that Craig has had to have dealings with, which he has written about many times, which plunged Ukraine into the lethal depths of winter by turning off Gazprom’s the gas, which has taken over the Russian news media, which throws journalists out of windows, which performed false-flag terrorism on its own citizens; need I go on? Do I need to find you links on this very site, this catalogue of Craig’s own experiences and insights?

    I know that the other governments are no better, and so does Craig. But you can’t let one criminal off just because some other criminal did something else.

  31. Another leaked phone call.

    Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders – leaked EU’s Ashton phone tape

    The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.

    “There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Paet said during the conversation.

    “I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,” Ashton answered.

    The call took place after Estonia’s Foreign Minister Urmas Paet visited Kiev on February 25 at the peak of clashes between the pro-EU protesters and security forces in the Ukrainian capital.

    …Paet also recalled his conversation with a doctor who treated those shot by snipers in Kiev. She said that both protesters and police were shot at by the same people.

    “And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,” the Estonian FM stressed.

    Ashton reacted to the information by saying: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”

    “So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,” Paet said.

    The file was reportedly uploaded to the web by officers of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) loyal to ousted President Viktor Yanukovich who hacked Paet’s and Ashton’s phones.

  32. Wikispooks you link returns to Craig’s blog but I would like to see what it is if you can re-link it. Thanks.

  33. Ah link already posted. Though I had refreshed the page but obviously not.

  34. Surely it would be a simple matter to ask Ashton and the Estonian foreign affairs minister the about this phone call and the info contained therein?

    Nazis behaving like Nazis is no longer news, I suppose…

  35. My friend in Kiev has responded to reservations, such as those expressed by Clark and Craig, that this incident was staged. His exasperation, that I am still apparently doubting the revolution as a spontaneous civilian uprising is clear. I do not in any way doubt my friend. I am going to summarise what I take from his email:

    This is a court case. The video makers knew what was happening and had time to plan in advance. This is why they could film the arrival of the defendant and the advancing column. Yes the protesters do glance at the camera but they are not used to being filmed. No big deal.

    Yes the production is slick but so what. Cameras are readily available and everyone has a pc to edit with. Do we think mobile phone quality provides authenticity?

    I think he says the marching and khaki are a result of national service which is mandatory in Ukraine. They have all been army trained.

    Here is a link to an English language report of the court case.

    My friend also explained that such “defence teams” did not exist at the start of the revolution and only started to appear as a result of Police violence. Police violence such as this from last December.

  36. wikispooks, 12:59 pm; your link seems wrong. Please re-post, preferably with more sources. I don’t want to rely only upon RT for that, no more than I’d rely on BBC for certain things.

  37. Clark,

    The actual audio of the phone call has been broadcast on RT – not just a transcript.

  38. This explains the US funding for these colour revolution/regime change things.

    In 1983 the CIA set up a group called NED which took over these kind of ops abroad, but did so publicly and under the guise of democratic improvement:

    http://consortiumnews.com/2014/02/27/a-shadow-us-foreign-policy/

  39. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 1:40 pm

    The Olga Bogolomets/Ashton story only seems to be sourced from .ru sites. And it’s far more likely, if true (pmsl), to be an intercept than a leak, so there’ll never be any independent verification. No-one ever said Putin was more truthful thasn (eg) Blair…

    I guess Ashton will deny it in due course.

  40. Phil (and please tell your friend in Kiev), I don’t doubt that most motivation for the protests is spontaneous. Whoever organised that group, they wouldn’t have been able to recruit so many volunteers without widespread popular opposition to Yanukovich and his administration.

    Note that the group in the video were using exactly the same shields as the police; echoes of “the same people shooting at both sides”, yes? It’s not the people I’m suspicious of; it’s the leadership. More and more, I’m suspecting convergence at the highest levels, with people’s justified grievances being cynically exploited.

    Arms dealers are notorious for selling to all sides. Conflict is always in their interest.

  41. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 1:42 pm

    Posted across AlcAnon’s revelation. Still sceptical. If not an utter fake, then an ultimately unattributable intercept.

  42. The Nazis apparently include members of the ‘Batkivshchyna’ Sergei Pashinsky and Yuliya Timoshenko. Considering that now there is talk that the sniper may have been from the opposition Pashinsky may be a suspect. In the boot of his car was a rifle with a silencer accidentally caught on one of the protestor’s videos. Sorry it is in Russian. But you get the picture. Before I am attacked by the usual suspects for being pro-Russian I reserve my opinion over this video. I am posting it out of general interest.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3e0_1392899402

  43. Makes you sound, Clark, as if you work for British security services where you imply unsolved ‘false flag’ operations are simply the work of the thug in Moscow when they are most probably the work of Anglo-American covert government – like the brutal murder of former KGB agent Alexandr Litvinenko who was threatening to blackmail Western leaders for, among other things, assassinating Swedish statsminister Olof Palme to trigger a non-nuclear conclusion to the USSR.

    Then there are the killings of Gareth Williams, Gudrun Loftus, and Steve Rawlings, among many others.

    The thugs in these assassinations are clearly Western governments.

    And Putin is clearly getting what he wants in the Ukraine – resetting the clock about who governs it and how, and getting the EU to help solve its economic plight rather than NATO imposing its stooges in Kiev.

  44. That ‘phone call dates from February 25? So Ashton etc. have said nothing about it for over a week.

  45. Sorry about that – YouTube video – Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet and Catherine Ashton discuss Ukraine over the phone.

    It is also a compelling illustration of the ‘call in the middle of the night’ persuasion that was used to secure the parliamentary votes to ‘oust Yukanovych’ – and everything else that has occurred since.

  46. Trowbridge H. Ford, 1:44 pm; I’m a private citizen with no affiliation except to Craig’s blog. I publish my contact details. You, or anyone else, are welcome to come to mine and scrutinise my behaviour for as long as you wish; there’s a spare bedroom and I’d be glad of company.

    I did also write: “I know that the other governments are no better…”

  47. How long will it be before the BBC etc. mention the tape I wonder?

  48. That audio, which I have just listened to is damning, because it is between two supporters of the “new” government, which, I cannot see surviving, not only because of the allegations that the sniper was from the protestors but that according to Catherine Ashton they are not being open about investigating the snipers.

  49. AlcAnon/Squonk 5 Mar, 2014 – 2:03 pm

    Probably not too soon. Still it will go viral on the net so there is not much they can do to hide it.

  50. “I know that the other governments are no better, and so does Craig. But you can’t let one criminal off just because some other criminal did something else.”

    You can’t prosecute one criminal while not prosecuting them all.

    That is the very basics of law, that it applies to all equally, that no one should be above it.

    Put Bush and Blair in the dock for the invasion of Iraq, a real invasion that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and counting. Then you can talk about putting Putin in the dock for the pretend invasion that has taken the lives of none.

  51. Ангрысоба

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:11 pm

    Yeah, yeah. Fair cop on the Falklands. I bet I know which way you swung though. 😛

  52. John

    Currently it’s being retweeted all over twitter. Although no major “Western” news agency has yet mentioned it at all.

  53. Thanks for the invite, but no thanks.

    I doubt that I could even enter the UK, given my unanswered complaints about MI5, MI6, and GCHQ, and if I did, I would have even stronger doubts about getting out alive.

    You have never indicated in particular anything thuggish about British spooks, only implied that Putin’s thugs did their apparent dirty work, making Putin much less of a thug.

  54. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:20 pm

    From the tape (RT transcript) –

    ‘Paet also recalled his conversation with a doctor who treated those shot by snipers in Kiev. She said that both protesters and police were shot at by the same people.

    “And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,” the Estonian FM stressed.

    Ashton reacted to the information by saying: “Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”’

    Olga Bogolomets? Oh, that Olga Bogolomets. No irons in the fire there, then.

    http://bogomolets.com/en

    She is alleged on her Wiki page to have encouraged her students to join the protests – though the link given contains no reference to her by name.

  55. Squonk, they will have no option. I wonder what the NSA think about it? They’ve been tapping phones for years. Have they released anything yet?

  56. The new government of thugs according to the audio comprise of people with a dirty past. I’m taking sides now, and have to accept that Craig has misjudged the new government.

  57. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Ji-Magazine/116217188517404

    “Claim: Ukraine’s government is illegitimate or not representative.

    Response: The new government was approved by the Rada with 371 votes, an overwhelming majority of Ukraine’s parliament, with the support of all political parties except the Communists. Even Yanukovych’s Party of Regions (POR) voted in favor of the new government just days after he disappeared. While POR is not represented in the current government, this is a political decision and does not indicate lack of support for the policies of the government. In fact, almost all legislation passed by parliament since Yanukovych’s departure has enjoyed majority support from POR.”

    Lots more verifiable info there.

  58. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:23 pm

    BTW, as everyone concerned was probably using Kalashnikovs – how the hell would anyone tell who killed who? A medic in the street isn’t going to be digging the bullets out to check the groove pattern, either…

  59. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:25 pm

    Both sides have more than their share of dirty pasts, John. I wouldn’t take sides at all.

  60. Agencia EFE (Madrid) Just tweeted it in Spanish to half a million followers. That’s the first

    Link http://www.efe.com/efe/noticias/espana/mundo/filtran-una-conversacion-ashton-que-siembra-dudas-sobre-francotiradores-kiev/1/4/2256851

  61. Readers here may be interested in Prof Francis Boyles take of the events in Ukraine (if already linked to my apologies – I can’t read everything). I have quoted him on the Wikispooks dedicated Ukraine page – The part headed “A more disturbing ‘reality’ possibility”

  62. Oops, forgot a bit. That ‘more disturbing possibility’ concerns the big picture – ie the wood not the trees – that are the subject of my ‘stuck-in-the-groove’ complaints about Craig and the well-meaning but hopelessly confused elements of the western political establishment that refuse to see the elephant too.

  63. Ba’al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail) 5 Mar, 2014 – 2:25 pm

    I know. But I’ve been trying to keep an open mind that the protestors may be right since Yanukovich is a thug. The audio states that too.

    It is going viral at a rate of knots! Anything on the BBC yet? I don’t hear anything. It’s a classic upstaging of the Paris farce. I wonder if the Russian foreign minister played Hague and Kerry the audio.

  64. AlcAnon

    If the tape is authentic – and it may well be a propaganda fake – the Estonian is recounting something they have been told, and Ashton is saying “Gosh”. Ashton has no information on it. If the tape is genuine, it does not follow that what the Estonian is saying is true – it probably does follow that the Estonian was told it, but that doesn’t make it true.

  65. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 2:48 pm

    What I get from the RT fragment is that Bogolomets is saying everyone was shooting at everyone – no surprises there – and that this is being spun by RT. Whether genuine or not, whether complete or not, whether ‘leaked’ or intercepted by Estonia’s former owners, it still appears to have been released by Russia. The cynical mind instantly asks ‘why?’ The cynical mind does not have to ponder long to answer that.

  66. John Goss, 2:22 pm;

    I […] have to accept that Craig has misjudged the new government.

    You must have missed this from Craig:

    http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/03/the-fashion-for-hypocrisy/#comment-443918

    Herbie,

    Thanks, I am convinced. Very unpleasant people – rather similar to those who have been in power in Hungary.

  67. Craig,

    I’m aware it is not proof of anything other than the conversation occurred (which has now been confirmed as genuine by Estonian government) . However the reaction of Ashton to the news, sounded to me as if she already knew it and wished her Estonian colleague would shut-up. That’s just how it sounded in my amateur opinion.

    Anyway people can listen and make up their own minds. I don’t know what happened.

    Daily Telegraph has now mentioned it online. Says they got “No Comment” when the question was put to Ashton. No mention at all yet on BBC of course.

  68. Trowbridge,

    Are you really saying that as others in power have committed false flag bombings it is impossible for Putin to do so?

  69. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 3:16 pm

    Just had a moment to listen to the audio -FSB bugging technology has improved. Good audio quality. The Estonians really need to disconnect that Soviet-era wiring running across the border. But really, is it so surprising that some of the motley crew of wannabe – oligarchs who retired Yanukovich aren’t above murder in the streets? Ashton (who is canny enough to understand about insecure lines) doesn’t sound surprised, and neither would I.

    So the dichotomy becomes a trichotomy.

    1. All the Russians, even quite nice ones
    2. Evil Ukrainians
    3. Nice Ukrainians.

    Who gets to form the next government? Place bets now.

  70. Trowbridge H. Ford, 2:13 pm

    “You have never indicated in particular anything thuggish about British spooks,”

    I’ve supported Craig in his campaign to expose torture and rendition, much of it in collusion with British agents and authorities, for years.

    ” only implied that Putin’s thugs did their apparent dirty work, making Putin much less of a thug.”

    I was thinking of the “series of explosions that hit four apartment blocks in the Russian cities of Buynaksk, Moscow, and Volgodonsk in September 1999”; so far as I know, British secret services were not implicated in that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings

  71. Of course not, though Russia has always been far behind when it comes to ‘false flag’ operations, going all the way back to the JFK plot – what Moscow learned about, and hoped to see carried out at Castro’s and West Berlin’s expense.

    Back then, the USSR counted on power, stealth, and murder on ocasion to achieve its goals.

    It even knew about the ‘false flag’ operation to kill Palme at its expense, but took the necessary counter measures, thanks to Putin’s spies, to prevent it from being punished by it, or blamed for it.

    Since the Soviet fall, Moscow has been much more involved in ‘false flag’ operations. The most important one was the sinking of the Estonia, it seems, where Moscow wanted to stop Anglo-American stealing of its best military and intelligence technology, and make it look like some kind of accident.

    Believe it is why Sweden is still more anti-Russian than the rest of the West.

  72. Oh, Clark, missed your post while I was writing my previous one.

    When it comes to exposing rendition and torture of British terror suspects, still see no mention of GMP Chief Constable Mike Todd who was responsible for investigating it, lied to repeatedly about what was going on, and died mysteriously on Snowdonia when the whole cover up started unravelling.

    And certainly don’t believe that Moscow was behind all those bombings which put the Winter Games in jeopardy. Sounds more like CIA and the Mossad – what Putin had to go to the greatest lengths to defuse.

  73. Orangeman sold out on Amazon and £50+ for a used copy. I was thinking of ordering one as I read through a large part of it on line and in Foyles, and wanted to re-read what CM said re someone towards the end.

    Does Putin’s washing his hands of responsibility for his “local defence volunteers” unmarked army actually set a very dangerous precedent.

    Does it legitimise Gladio, private armies and other raggle taggle non-state or quasi-state forces?

    I expect to see wider use of unmarked pseudo free acting soldiers.

  74. Clark 5 Mar, 2014 – 1:42 pm
    “Phil (and please tell your friend in Kiev)…It’s not the people I’m suspicious of; it’s the leadership.”

    Clark, I shall not be passing on your message. Do you imagine the people in Kiev need you to tell them that they should be suspicious of the new leadership?

    Are you joking? I just cannot believe you are serious.

  75. Finally a mention by the BBC
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26445666

    15:30:

    He accused those behind the leaking of the phone conversation of trying “to discredit the new government of Ukraine”.
    15:29:

    Mr Paet said he had been making known to Ms Ashton the rumours he heard on a visit to Kiev, that snipers from both sides were involved in the killing of protesters in Independence Square last month.
    15:28:

    Estonia’s Foreign Minister Urmas Paet speaks out over a leaked telephone conversation he had with EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton in which he discussed the events in Ukraine.

    Still no mention on BBC tv news yet.

  76. OT.

    “There’s A Huge Storm Rolling Over Sydney And The Pictures Are Amazing”

    http://www.businessinsider.com.au/theres-a-huge-storm-rolling-over-sydney-and-the-pictures-are-amazing-2014-3

  77. In all of these things you have to look at the context to see who benefits from the event.

    In this case, the Opposition, Yanukovich, the EU and the Russians, had just concluded a deal.

    They’d all excluded the Americans.

    As a result of these shootings the deal was scrapped, the fascists took control of security from the police and Yanukovich did a runner for his life.

    My money is on those who weren’t invited to the party.

    That’d be the Americans. They or their agents are the most likely candidates.

    Fuck the EU, indeed!

  78. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 3:49 pm

    ‘Mr Paet said he had been making known to Ms Ashton the rumours he heard on a visit to Kiev, that snipers from both sides were involved in the killing of protesters in Independence Square last month.’

    Rumours. Exactly. And his source – possibly the only one – was Olga Bogolomets.
    Here they are:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/estonian-foreign-ministry/12772064114/?rb=1

    And in this Feb 21st CNN report is Bogolomets alleging sniper fire. Without saying whodunnit.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/20/world/europe/ukraine-protests/

    Radio Free Europe got nearer than that –

    In video shot by Radio Free Europe, men wearing what appear to be government uniforms fired at unseen targets with automatic rifles and a sniper rifle with a telescopic sight. CNN could not immediately confirm their target.

    And RFE is funded by the US Congress. Is Obama hand in glove with Putin? Somehow I doubt it.

  79. “Mr Paet said he had been making known to Ms Ashton the rumours he heard on a visit to Kiev, that snipers from both sides were involved in the killing of protesters in Independence Square last month.
    15:28:”

    No. That’s not right at all.

    What he said is that the snipers were firing on both sides, police and protesters.

    Either he’s changed his story or the BBC have changed it for him.

  80. Clark 5 Mar, 2014 – 1:42 pm
    “Note that the group in the video were using exactly the same shields as the police; echoes of “the same people shooting at both sides”, yes?”

    Or maybe they just stole them.

  81. I’m no expert , but it sounds genuine to me. Why bother with the telephonists bits n pieces if its a studio job ?
    When the CIA did Obama, they didn’t always get the lip syncing right or the beard colour,but it was without any extra nonsense,like them ordering pizza or beer.Ashton sounds every bit as professional as she looks, and the Estonians for almost a week have been flagging the “unelected leaders” of Ukraine as being bad guys.Unelected !! It’s becoming the European way…. Greece , Italy, Ukraine…
    The recording’s been released for the same reasons they released the US ambassadors conversation. To show that they know and they can!! They might just let the NSA record, they log in ,download whatever they want. That would be justice wouldn’t it?
    If it looks like dog shit, smells like dog shit , feels like dog shit, and tastes like dog shit, then its dog shit !!! West guilty. The Russians are guilty of many things but this whole episode has that made in Washington feel about it.
    Meanwhile the western press ignore the biggest story in this because it isn’t in their script.Wonder what “consequences” Hague can come up with for the snipers paymasters ?

  82. I believe the author is missing or ignoring vital facts. Paul Craig Roberts seems to be the only commentator worth reading these days. Doesn’t shirk from telling it like it is.

    http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/03/05/propaganda-rules-news-paul-craig-roberts/

  83. Ba'al Zevul (Nuke The Daily Mail)

    5 Mar, 2014 - 3:58 pm

    Herbie – What Paet said was actually pretty ambiguous – he was not expressing himself clearly -, and the RT transcript I quoted above shows it to be so. And it was second-hand.

  84. Curious that the BBC publishes the Estonian response to the tape before it has published any of the tape content (audio or transcript).

    Also the reference to “handwriting” being the same he made is said elsewhere to be a reference to the ballistic signature, identified on bullets that killed both police officers and protesters, being the same from analysis. Not having English as a first language he said “handwriting” instead of “signature”. Any linguists (or not) want to comment on that interpretation?

    If someone does have proof that the same weapon(s) were used to shoot both sides then that is very interesting.

  85. The Americans are on a roll.Come on!

    Kosovo,Bosnia,Jemen,Syria,Libya,Tunisia,Egypt,Sudan,Somalia,Baluchistan,Iran,Iraq,

    Why is Ukraine so far fetched?

    None of the new leadership has clean hands or less than a few million dollars.

    And US jump at them with open arms and wallets. Come on!!

  86. Herbie, I understood that too. The same people shooting on both sides. By the way, I did not get the impression that Catherine Ashton knew about it Squonk. When she said something like “I didn’t know that” it sounded genuine to me. Perhaps I am too trusting.

    Clark, no I did not miss that, but certainly Craig’s earlier posts, and most of his comments have leaned more towards the unelected government. Arseniy Yatsenyuk, the interim Ukrainian prime minister has told the BBC (surprise, surprise) that the government is legitimate. Now my understanding of a legitimate government is one elected by the electorate, not one appointed by a conglomerate of MPs who elected themselves. The electorate does not just comprise people in Kiev, and not all of them are supportive of the rioters, as the article in the Jerusalem Post revealed.

  87. Ba’al Zevul

    No. He’s very definitely saying on the tape that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides. They were shooting policemen and protestors.

    And, you know what that means.

    If he’s now changed his story to what you quote above then I’m afraid that’s proof positive that some element of the Western interest was involved.

    My money is on those who were excluded from the deal.

    That’d be the Americans or their agents.

  88. “US Hypocrisy and ‘Regime change’: The Simple Truth About Ukraine – Video”

    http://www.sott.net/article/274380-US-Hypocrisy-and-Regime-change-The-Simple-Truth-About-Ukraine-Video

    “The meddling of the US and the EU has produced nothing but chaos.”

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/incompetent-imperialists-reign-in-ukraine/14734#.UxdNSc7Sgf2

  89. Andrew, the article by Paul Craig Roberts seems sound to me. I like his coined phrase presstitutes for MSM arse-lickers.

  90. He’s very explicit:

    “They were the same snipers killing people from both sides”

    from 8.28

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8#t=13

  91. The sniper was “somebody from the new coalition”. At least that was what Urmas Paet was told. But still no mention and in fact there is BBC bresking news that Ban Ki Moon’s representative has been seized.

  92. Let’s nail this one down — There are now neo Nazis in the Ukrainian Government, and “we” helped put them there.

  93. Obama might have gone to Sochi out of gratitude to Putin. Obama might also have stood with Russia’s leader against international terrorists that have taken lives in both America and Russia. Short memories hide the fact Putin persuaded Bashar al-Assad to eliminate his chemical weapons and then went on to ‘grease the wheels’ and thus pave the way for Obama’s opening to Iran and peace.

    We witnessed Putin’s games corrupted, contaminated by threats from Bandar-Bush and amplified by a tainted American media that gave terrorists an early victory and frightened untold numbers of foreign visitors including relatives of the athletes.

    The Sochi games will pass into history and left behind is an unfolding new cold war divide and instability far worse than the fractures of Georgia in 2008.

    When I embrace Putin I do so because I believe he is not a patron of terror, intimidation, shock and awe. He is not a murderer of innocent children in an illegal war, a war that displaced Iraqi families by the million.

    We all live in a ‘thugocracy’ for sure, creating fear, expoiting and embracing terrorism is licentious to the point of being pornographic.

  94. Mike, I did not help put the neo-Nazis in power and I disassociate myself from all coup d’état initiated by fascists with possible support from western governments with a known record for destabilising government.

    Mark I certainly prefer Putin to Obama, Cameron, et al.

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