Wha Wad Be A Traitor Knave? 435

I was called a traitor by a Conservative MEP in a committee meeting of the European Parliament to which I was giving eyewitness evidence on the UK’s complicity in torture and extraordinary rendition. Doubtless that is recorded in the minutes of the meeting, which means I am marked down on a forest of European Parliament paper as a traitor in each of the European Union’s 24 official languages.

Nobody turned a hair, least of all me. There were some giggles as the Tory MEP immediately walked out of the meeting, which was viewed as childish. But nobody thought of it as way outside the normal levels of political discourse. Indeed it was quite mild by European parliamentary standards. It is, of course, perfectly true that I used to represent the United Kingdom and now it is my dearest wish to destroy it as an institution. It is therefore arguable that I am technically a traitor. I am not scared of names.

My Scottish readers will have realised that this disquisition on treachery is a reference to the Labour Party’s published dossier of evil cybernats. The majority of those cited qualified as evil because of use of the word traitor. I am devastated I did not get included. I am unsure that my ego will ever recover.

It seems to me that, in an argument which revolves around what constitutes a nation, the idea of treachery to the nation is one that logically is bound to intrude, on all sides. Indeed it can be shown to intrude into the entire discourse around unionism and nationalism over centuries. I have used the term myself.

It seems to me context is important. There is a legitimate discourse on whether treachery to either the United Kingdom or to Scotland is involved in the independence conundrum. To make plain that some consider a position or act as traitorous has a place in robust political debate. I deplore the idea that politics must be reduced to genteel commonplaces over tiny areas of disagreement. Passion is important. But to imply violent retribution is different, and comes under bullying and threat.

“Traitor” should not be shunned like a racist epithet. It carries a meaning which is important.

435 thoughts on “Wha Wad Be A Traitor Knave?

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  • nevermind

    What informative discussion this morning, so intricate and perplexing, its a sheer bliss to be alive and able to listen to all this……

  • nevermind

    yes Mark, indeed they are preparing for something, there has been ample training during the last few days above our heads here.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    An American Spokesman was interviewed this morning on Today. The gist of it (stripped of the awkward silences and diplomatic language) was:
    “Yes, we realise the UK contribution will be a pinprick, but the Ay-rabs we’ve got on side don’t take orders, can’t shoot straight, and we can’t trust them with the stuff we’d like to use. We need some creative confusion between IS and Assad targets, you get the message. We also need someone notionally sane from Europe to make it look right internationally (except, of course, the Ay-rabs). You DO want a Special Relationship, don’t you?”

  • fedup

    ISIS, ISIL, IS, Daesh

    If the contributors in this blog are confused then god help the punters who are not all that keen to follow the current affairs.

    ISIS is an inaccurate translation that has been abbreviated for the benefit of the English speakers. ISIL is a closer translation and the abbreviation thereof of the same group ie ISIS and ISIL are the same bunch.

    IS is an attempt to associate the Islamic Republic of Iran with the same bunch of terrorists above and is a handy work of the zionist operatives, because it just means “Islamic State” and it is a nonsense that is mostly peddled by beebeecee bulletins.

    Daesh is the accurate abbreviation of the group that is currently attributed to be fighting in Iraq, Syria, and are beheading anyone they come across. These lunatics are the handy work of the Secret Intelligence Network, and originally were trained and injected into Syria. Mark Golding used to write up a lot about this. Fact that these various terms have been pushed into vernacular in the West however is an indication of the lack of traction that this group seems to have in the minds of the standard issue punter, and further due to the bumbling shenanigans of the various SIS including the zionist supremacists efforts have brought on a number of “franchised” terror groups into fore, whilst in reality it is the same group that claims to be present in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, Nigeria.

    These terrorists are bankrolled by Saudi and Qatar, and their training is subcontracted to that War Criminal Erik Prince the ex founder and owner of now defunct and re-branded Black Water mercenary outfit . He has been in Qatar for many years and has been very active in organizing this group and ensuring the recruitment of the “right caliber” of low life scum from various jails in Saudi, Qatar, etc.

    So Daesh=ISIL=ISIS=IS these wahabi/salafist (Wahab was the founder of the Whabism who was a Salafist and both of these groups are believers in the most reactionary and arcane Arab traditions that has been interwoven into Islam) group are an alien group that apparently have come to represent the “aspirations of the Muslims of the world”. In fact these groups are an anathema to Islam however because the oil money from Saudi et al has been bankrolling the movement; it is kept current and relevant. In reality Mohammad would be spinning in his grave witnessing the practices of these groups and the total misinterpretation of Islam as forwarded by them.

    Finally as an aside, a question that no one dares to ask; Why the bodies of the poor dead are being paraded in Brize Norton, for the benefit of the Agent Cameron intent on bombing Syria? Do these selected politicians have no shame to not even leave the dead alone, and they are using the lifeless corpses to whip up public hysteria for yet another bombing run this time on Syria?

  • Ba'al Zevul

    IS is an attempt to associate the Islamic Republic of Iran with the same bunch of terrorists above and is a handy work of the zionist operatives, because it just means “Islamic State” and it is a nonsense that is mostly peddled by beebeecee bulletins.

    Interesting thought. Alternative hypothesis, they couldn’t decide between ISIL and ISIS, while Daesh is mainly used perjoratively by its opponents. Including me.

    I don’t buy the conspiracy theory, you will be unsurprised to know. I am certain that Daesh is completely unwanted blowback from our meddling in the region (including the recruitment of ‘moderate’ ‘rebels’ against Assad while failing to recognise that although unpleasant he was a force for stability, our failure to secure Iraq’s weaponry and our dismissal of the Sunni structure in Iraq). This is another Mad Mahdi event, in essence:


    Discuss 🙂

  • Mary

    Tunisia a day before Armed Forces Day remember. That was a Brown invention.

    The next one is already being planned.

    ‘358 days to go
    Armed Forces Day
    Saturday 25 June 2016’



    Peace and stability in the Middle East and North Africa
    From:Foreign & Commonwealth Office, Department for International Development, Ministry of Defence, The Rt Hon Philip Hammond MP, and Tobias Ellwood MP

    What the government’s doing about peace and stability in the Middle East and North Africa.


  • Ba'al Zevul

    Looking away from that one…

    The United States Commission on International Religious Freedom has issued its shitlist for 2015:


    The list contains 11 countries either currently/recently advised by one or other of Tony Blair’s operations (9) or enjoying Tony Blair’s frequent visits and silence on their religious outlook (2).

    It may also be found on the Tony Blair Faith Foundation website!

    …and here (with much more)


  • John Spencer-Davis

    Abe Rene
    03/07/2015 8:43am

    Sorry to see you leave. I don’t agree with you about much, but you are able to disagree with other forum members without venom, insult or sarcasm, which is refreshing.

    Good luck to you.

    Kind regards,


  • Mary

    All very strange. She used to be the media’s darling and the flavour of the month.

    Camila Batmanghelidjh to leave Kids Company, citing political ‘ugly games’
    Campaigner says ‘I am being silenced’ over cuts in government funding for her charity that would leave traumatised children ‘largely unprotected’

    What lay behind. Cameron’s judgement or lack of it again.

    The trouble with Kids Company
    It’s a favourite charity of David Cameron and many celebrities. But does it do what it claims to do?
    196 Comments Miles Goslett 14 February 2015 http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9437932/the-trouble-with-kids-company/

  • Clark

    Abe Rene, 8:43 am; sorry that you want to go.

    Please check the comments occasionally. Hopefully in a while things will calm down and there will be less antagonism on the threads. If we don’t see you again, goodbye, and thanks for contributing your opinions.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Cameron doesn’t like the Beeb using IS either.


    ““I wish the BBC would stop calling it Islamic State because it’s not an Islamic state””

    While by any standard, Iran is. Cameron doesn’t like the confusion any more than Fedup. Now there’s a turnup for the books.

    Beg to differ, though. It’s Islamic, in that it proposes a version of Islam, and it is a state, though without permanent borders as yet. Its writ is enforced pretty consistently throughout the areas it has taken over, and I am not sure what other definition of a state you need.

  • Clark

    KingOfWelshNoir, 7:17 am; yes, text can be remotely altered. Proprietary software is NOT under the control of the user. The user does not own the software, it is merely licensed for use temporarily and under certain conditions. ALL proprietary software is controlled by the proprietor.

    There is Free (libre) Software that is licensed under community licenses such as the GNU General Public License (GPL). Such software is under the control of the users. Iceweasel (an offshoot of Firefox) and LibreOffice (an offshoot of OpenOffice) are examples of such fully free software.

    (I use the French ‘libre’ since in English, there are no separate words for ‘free’ as in ‘free speech’ (libre – without restriction) and in ‘free beer’ (gratis – without payment).

    However, application software such as Iceweasel and LibreOffice is dependent upon the underlying operating system. If your operating system is proprietary (Microsoft, Apple etc.) then having control of your application software is moot.

    Your iPad is most definitely under Apple’s control, not yours. All software on it can be remotely altered by Apple, so even if is is not currently capable of altering text or spying on you (which it probably is), Apple can add those functions whenever the device is connected to the Internet. The Kindle software is under Amazon’s control, so running Kindle on iOS (the iPad’s operating system) just puts you at the mercy of two companies rather than one.

    I strongly suggest you read the following, including the notes that follow it:


    Yes, proprietary software can seem traitorous – legally, however, proprietary software serves a master other than you.

  • fedup

    Interesting thought. Alternative hypothesis, they couldn’t decide between ISIL and ISIS, while Daesh is mainly used perjoratively by its opponents.

    Pejorative is a subjective matter, and can be extended to any degrees, however it still does not detract from the fact that Arabic abbreviation is “Daesh” (داعش) loosely translated; Islamic Government of Iraq and Shaam (Levant/meaning Syria)**. For a state to exist it has to be recognized so by other states, and for it to have the apparatus of representation internationally and locally. A bunch of thugs setting up their own protectorate does not equate a “state”

    ** The context of the government is in fact a reference to the Caliphate, and representation of the whole of the Muslim constituents. If you will a Pope on steroids, as it used to be in the past. Further given the historically corrupt rule of such an institution that has been so, so utterly discredited and destroyed, not many Muslims would ever accept such a proposition. That is other than the poor souls caught up in the “protectorates” ran by these thugs.

    The oligarch owned media have never publicized the oversexed and murderous Daesh operatives excesses in Syria and Iraq. One such an example of the degree of corruption wreaked by these murderous thugs happend in a Syrian Christian enclave. Daesh after having driven the Syrian forces out of the area, began their rule; by offering the Christians the following alternatives;

    A- Christians can remain within their religion, but they must report to Daesh to be shot dead.

    B- Christians can remain within their religion, but must pay a heavy ransom to Daesh on an annual basis.

    C- Christians can remain within their religion, if they allow the Daesh commanders to go and live in their homes, and to sleep with the woman of the house for the duration of a week!! (this is not a joke, it is a deadly serious offer by Daesh)

    D- The Christians can stay alive and keep their wares and wives, but must convert to Islam and prove to be observing the Islamic rites!


    Thank you for you kind remarks Mark Golding.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Ba’al Zevul
    03/07/2015 12:58 pm

    I do wonder if any of these JTRIG people are professional psychologists, and if so, how they square their actions with required ethical codes of conduct.


    Already we are seeing the introduction of forced psychological treatment for the continued receipt of state benefits in this country, which is utterly outrageous from the point of view of psychotherapy. You can’t force people to undergo therapy – the idea would be hilarious if it weren’t so serious. I will be astonished if any qualified therapist is willing to work for the DWP under terms that include law-abiding people being forced to attend psychological treatment or starve.


    Kind regards,


  • Habbabkuk (la vita è bella)

    Mr Goss

    “Thank you Habby at 8:50 am. Resident Dissident nearly always gets the wrong end of the stick. He never misses an opportunity to try and discredit me. It nearly always backfires on him. Etc…”

    Now then, Mr Goss, don’t let my kind words go to your head! Don’t be a ‘profiteur’ or I shall have to start my caning sessions with you again! :).

  • SingleObservation

    John. NASA european space agency etc is one big psyop.

    Short clip of Apollo 11 press conf. Watch the body language:


    They’ve kept this lie going a long time:


    The ISS? Yep that’s slap bang in the thermosphere. Check out the perms the girls have. For continuity. I believe they’ve stopped
    that now since so maNY people have noticed. Lots of bubbles on
    these space walks too. Filmed underwater by the looks of it.

    Oh and the Van Allen belts. They’ve only become deadly to man sine the Apollo missions though.

    No doubt I’ll get slated. But its one big scam. How far away was Rosetta? What kind of feedback system were they using?

    Nobody seems able or allowed to think critically these days.

  • John Goss

    “John Goss – Sorry mate, I’m away this weekend, in that hotbed of marxist revolutionaries er….Marlow. Enjoy the play!”

    You enjoy Marlow. I’ll not bring that Louie Knight mystery “From Aberystwyth with Love” down to be signed.

    N.B. RobG, that pushes up the value of books, first editions in particular. A personal message helps too.

    By the way, any other residents or visitors to Oxford, who might be interested in seeing “Like a Chemist From Canada” about Dmitri Shostakovich, Sir Isaiah Berlin and Oxford I gave the wrong information yesterday. I bought my ticket through Oxford Playhouse and thought that because it was not in the main house it would be in the studio. This is wrong. It is actaully in the Sheldonian, wherever that is (OX1 3BH). Apols. Unintentional.

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Islamic Government of Iraq and Shaam (Levant/meaning Syria) For a state to exist it has to be recognized so by other states, and for it to have the apparatus of representation internationally and locally. A bunch of thugs setting up their own protectorate does not equate a “state”

    It does if they have the hardware. And doesn’t the Levant mean a bit more than Syria? Used to in my day.

  • Mary

    As you were saying John.

    Austerity and a malign benefits regime are profoundly damaging mental health
    442 psychotherapists, counsellors and academics condemn government plans and call on Labour and other parties to denounce anti-therapeutic practices

    I see ‘Maximus’ are replacing ATOS.

    Maximus Inc., trademarked as MAXIMUS, is an American for-profit privatizing company that provides business process services to government health and human services agencies in the United States, Australia, Canada, Saudi Arabia and the United Kingdom. MAXIMUS focuses on administering government-sponsored programs, such as Medicaid, the Children’’s Health Insurance Program, health care reform, welfare-to-work, Medicare, child support enforcement, and other government programs. The company is based in Reston, Virginia, has 8,657 employees, and reported annual revenue of $1.05 billion in fiscal year 2012

    I am sure Mr Montoni et al will take good care of the patients.

    Similarly The Priory now owned by Advent International has had four previous owners.
    Advent International
    Private equity company
    Advent International is an American global private equity firm focused on buyouts of companies in Western and Central Europe, North America, Latin America and Asia.

  • John Goss

    “Now then, Mr Goss, don’t let my kind words go to your head! Don’t be a ‘profiteur’ or I shall have to start my caning sessions with you again! 🙂 ”

    I thought it was too good to last. By the way I also thought with your Blytonian education you would not have put your “Etc…” in quotation marks together with my comment extract. Etc (etcetera) is an abbreviation I very rarely use, reserved more for those who pad out their comments with meaningless nonsense, who have come to the end of their knowledge on the subject and want people to believe they know more than what they do. 🙂

  • SingleObservation

    Great minds think alike Mary!

    My posts seem to be removed if I make it too obvious.

    Really I just want people to wake from their slumber.

    And a bit of troll bashing x x

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