Helen Clark 347


I very much hope that Helen Clark becomes the new UN Secretary-General. As Prime Minister of New Zealand, she showed enormous political courage in keeping New Zealand out of the Iraq war, despite immense pressure on her from the UK, US and Australia. This pressure included the threat that New Zealand would be excluded from the intelligence sharing agreements between these powers. Given New Zealand’s history, Iraq was a big decision, and Helen Clark got it exactly right.

She similarly refused US pressure for a quiet hush-up when New Zealand caught Mossad agents forging New Zealand passports. Mossad used forged British passports in a subsequent high profile killing.

She has shown similar judgement in running the UN Development Programme, where she has won much respect for paying as much attention to the views of African nations as to the “authorities” of the IMF and World Bank.

For these reasons Clark is not the preferred candidate of the US or UK governments for the Secretary General position. But her independence does mean she is ultimately acceptable to Russia and China, whose agreement is essential as the appointment is confirmed by the Security Council. The Russians in particular feel they made a mistake in agreeing to the disappointing Ban Ki-Moon last time.

Finally may I be permitted to suggest that answer no. 5 here gives a further example of Helen Clark’s excellent political judgement?


347 thoughts on “Helen Clark

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  • sonya roussina

    What about Helen Clark’s support for the TPPA, Craig, as reported in nzherald 1 October 2015? I was really disappointed.

    ‘She rarely comments on New Zealand domestic issues, but made an exception when asked about the TPP –
    “What always haunts a Prime Minister is ‘will there be a series of trade blocs develop that you are not part of?’ Because that is unthinkable for New Zealand as an export-oriented, small trading nation. “So of course New Zealand has to be in on the action with the TPP”‘

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      Sonya, my dear : a little modesty would be most becoming in a maiden such as you.

      Helen Clark has already passed the “Israel test” – is that not enough for you?

      • philw

        “Sonya, my dear : a little modesty would be most becoming in a maiden such as you.”

        Glad to see you’re back on form Habbabkuk – what an excoriating reply, what superlative standards of debate!

      • Geoff

        Habbabkuk, I seem to recall you lambasting other posters for making ‘everything about Israel’ and yet here you are introducing Israel in response to a post where it isn’t mentioned.

        Putting hypocrisy aside, a disinterested observer might even think you were looking for an argument where none exists.

        Any thoughts?

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          If you look carefully, Geoff, you’ll see Israel mentioned – via the reference to Mossad – in Craig’s lead-in post.

          • Geoff

            And if you look with equal care at Helen’s post to which you were replying, you’ll see no mention of Mossad or indeed anything else connected with Israel. Yet you felt the need to bring it in.

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            As Craig chose to mention Mossad (read Israel) in his lead-in post, it seemed fair enough to mention it in the context of my attempt to reassure Sonya.

            Not off-topic, surely?

            But you’re well aware of that – so stop trying to wind me up with faux perplexity 🙂

  • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

    Helen Clark certainly seems to have a higher political profile and visiblity than the other declared candidates.

    And I, as a considerable linguist, must confess it is a pleasure to hear a candidate who speaks an English which does not offend my delicate ears (Mr Candidate from Montebegro and others please note).

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        Certainly, Martinned.

        Go back over the last 30 years and reflect on how many of the Budget Commissioners have been utter nonentities both in Brussels and in the Member States whence they came.

        I am surprised at you.

        • Martinned

          As opposed to all the New Zealand prime ministers who’ve made a splash outside their native country?

          Brussels is a diplomatic behemoth. Anyone who can keep standing there for not one but two terms (Mrs. Georgieva served as Commissioner for International Cooperation, Humanitarian Aid and Crisis Response in the previous Commission) is bound to make a bigger splash than the prime minister of what is almost literally the furthest corner of the world.

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Firstly, let us remember that Mrs Clark currently runs the UN Development Programme function; hence she also has a current public profile.

            Secondly, I would suggest that Mrs Clark has made a bigger splash outside her own pond (New Zealand) that the great majority of EU Commissioners have outside theirs.

            Indeed, I would suggest that most Commissioners do not make much of a splash even within their own pond (whether you take the pond to be the Commission itself or the 28 state EU as a whole).

            Thirdly, it is no big deal for Commissioners to serve for two terms – there are many examples, including some distinctly unimpressive (Brunner), lazy (Haferkamp), and mad (Ripa di Meana) ones in a Brussels context. As you are Dutch, perhaps you remember Henk Vredeling?

          • Martinned

            let us remember that Mrs Clark currently runs the UN Development Programme function; hence she also has a current public profile.

            Which is what, exactly? (As in: no one who can’t already pick her out of a line-up knows what that job entails.)

            Secondly, I would suggest that Mrs Clark has made a bigger splash outside her own pond (New Zealand) that the great majority of EU Commissioners have outside theirs.

            Well, yes, because “the great majority of EU Commissioners” have domestic-focused jobs. But domestic still means herding 28 cats (plus whatever mess comes out of the European Parliament).

            I would suggest that most Commissioners do not make much of a splash even within their own pond (whether you take the pond to be the Commission itself or the 28 state EU as a whole).

            Not sure why you would focus on their impact within the Commission rather than their impact on the EU, but anyway, there are clearly many unremarkable Commissioners. Mrs. Georgieva is decidedly not one of them.

            Thirdly, it is no big deal for Commissioners to serve for two terms – there are many examples, including some distinctly unimpressive (Brunner), lazy (Haferkamp), and mad (Ripa di Meana) ones in a Brussels context. As you are Dutch, perhaps you remember Henk Vredeling?

            Or, more recently, Neelie Kroes, also a formidable woman. So?

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Martinned

            Last one from me, but feel free to carry on.

            “Not sure why you would focus on their impact within the Commission rather than their impact on the EU, but anyway, there are clearly many unremarkable Commissioners. Mrs. Georgieva is decidedly not one of them.”

            1/. Actually, I didn’t (as you can see from my “…their own pond (whether you take the pond to be the Commission itself or the 28 state EU as a whole))

            2/. You are unimpressed by Mrs Clark.

            3. You are most impressed by Mrs Georgieva,

  • Mark Golding

    I admire, honor and respect Helen Clark for imposing diplomatic sanctions on Israel after New Zealand convicted two Israelis of attempting to illegally obtain New Zealand passports through ties with organized criminal gangs; it was a pity Helen was not told that the Israeli ‘Migrant Help’ program she extolled at ID2 was in fact a corruption for providing proxy fighters (terrorists) injured in Syria with surgery and care at Ziv Medical Center in the mountain city of Safed, just west of the Golan Heights.

  • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

    “she showed enormous political courage in keeping New Zealand out of the Iraq war, despite immense pressure on her from the UK, US and Australia. This pressure included the threat that New Zealand would be excluded from the intelligence sharing agreements between these powers. ”
    _______________________

    I was under the impression that the exclusion of New Zealand from the Five Eyes Programme was merely raised by the then US Ambassador as a possible reaction by the US Administration to the NZ stance. And that the US Administration in fact never reacted thus.

    If that is correct then it is inaccurate to talk about “immense pressure on her” from the US govt.

    • YouKnowMyName

      press release: Intelligenceonline.com (pay wall)

      Still keen on being the godfather of the British cybersecurity sector, Sir Iain Lobban KCMG CB, the former director of GCHQ, Britain’s interception agency narrowly avoids a conflict of interest as he is appointed Strategic Adviser on Cyber Security to the New Zealand based Wynyard Group. . . (4th April 2016)

      . . . A fully-owned subsidiary of Christchurch-based Jade Software, Wynyard Group won a landmark agreement to commercialise NZ Police-developed digital forensics technology, and sell it to agencies etc. Wynyard Group is making inroads into the huge US market, where its products have impressed the Department of Homeland Security. Wynyard has a strategic relationship with US defence contractor Northrop Grumman, (so I suppose does the x-director of NSA sorry GCHQ)

    • Loony

      On the assumption that your considerable linguistic skills extend to English then surely you must realize:

      That the job of a US Ambassador is to explain and promote US policy. Therefore if the US Ambassador suggested that NZ may be excluded from the Five Eyes Program then it follows that the US Government was considering such an exclusion. It is reasonable to describe the possibility of such exclusion as constituting “immense pressure.” It is reasonable because, as far as we know, the possibility of such an exclusion was only raised for the purposes of applying pressure.

      It therefore follows that your point is nugatory at best.

      • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

        Since intelligence agencies like NSA and CIA generally leave the U.S. Ambassador in the dark about what they’re doing, I would say your surmise that the ambassador was instructed to do what he did by someone in a superior position (like the President, the Secretary of State, or one of the intel agencies, since in practice they have more power than ambassadors) is almost certainly correct.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        Loony

        “That the job of a US Ambassador is to explain and promote US policy.”
        ________________

        Correct. And perhaps also to anticipate and to advise the govt to which he is accredited.
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        “Therefore if the US Ambassador suggested that NZ may be excluded from the Five Eyes Program then it follows that the US Government was considering such an exclusion.”
        _________________________

        I’m not sure it was a “suggestion” : perhaps more a speculation as to a possible US reaction.

        And therefore what you say does not “follow”.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        “It is reasonable to describe the possibility of such exclusion as constituting “immense pressure.””

        ________________________

        No – And not even if we use the meaning you give to the word “suggestion”.

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        ~” It is reasonable because, as far as we know, the possibility of such an exclusion was only raised for the purposes of applying pressure.”
        ________________________

        I’m afraid that doesn’t follow either.

        *****************************

        It is clear that you wish to believe there was “pressure” (immense or otherwise) and are bending the facts of the case – which you don’t know – to support that belief.

        But, generous as always, let me assist you: go to Wikileaks and find the text of the relevant US Embassy telegram. And then you will see.

        Over and out.

  • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

    “She similarly refused US pressure for a quiet hush-up when New Zealand caught Mossad agents forging New Zealand passports.”
    ____________________

    Just to clarify: the link supplied by Craig for the above is, in fact, to Ha’aretz quoting The Guardian (Craig’s favorite paper): it tells us that the US govt had speculated that the NZ stance might have been influenced by its desire to promote good relations with Arabs states as a means of increasing sales NZ mutton and lamb to those countries.

    So, whereas there might have been pressure, this is certainly not demonstrated by Craig’s link.

  • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

    “But her independence does mean she is ultimately acceptable to Russia and China, whose agreement is essential as the appointment is confirmed by the Security Council.”
    ___________________

    The second part of that is certainly correct but I wonder whether Craig could flesh out somewhat the thought contained in the first part?

  • Tony_0pmoc

    The following is extremely interesting, and the correct place for it to be placed is https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2016/04/corporate-media-gatekeepers-protect-western-1-from-panama-leak/

    However, due to the LIFO (Last In First Out) Stack Structure of this website (reminds me of my Commodore VIC and 6502 Assembler (1981)), the chances are – no one would read it there. I only tend to read the most current articles here, and I suspect most people are the same.

    Why the «Panama Papers »? by Thierry Meyssan

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article191236.html

      • Tony_0pmoc

        No but after The ICL DAP (well and before actually),Pong. Matel Intellivision (I had a Sinclair Project 60 + FM stereo in 69) and I liked a real keyboard..Commodore VIC/64, Atari ST(I sent it back in 85 and got my money back), Commodore Amiga….and a few other bit and pieces and ended up on UNIX…

        You should have seen the core dumps – what a waste of paper – just hit it with a stick. (some of them were very big and occasionally looked a steam engine)

        Tony

        • Ben Monad

          I was using an IBM typewriter and a friend got the Adam and i was beside myself…a rudimentary word processor. It didn’t even have a floppy, it had magnetic tape cassette and when you hit return the cursor blinked twice then magically it returned and no need for correction ball tape.

          • Tony_0pmoc

            Re above – and the steam engine bit….

            It refers to the fact that all these computers in a very large room were about the size of a steam engine ….

            and I was on evening shift and it was about 5pm…and suddenly vast quantities of smoke started pouring out of one of them and I went

            Oh F…

            Hitting it with a stick was about doing vibration tests on the pcbs – rather than trying to analyse the software dump – even if we had already tested it to bits with our test software…it could still be a hardware fault..

            I had a Brill Job.

            Then they Fired Me….and I bought a Commodore VIC with my redundancy money.

            Tony

  • fedup

    I will have to start suing the MODS for repetitive strain injure to my index finger scrolling down the page to skip the incessant spewing of one self confessed snitch and lunatic* in residence whom verily believes that it is on this board to keep the other contributors in check and put them to right!

    That aside, most certainly Helen Clark will be an improvement on one Ban Ki Moon who somehow never managed to drink a cup of tea without first consulting the State Department and in fact turned the UN into an irrelevant organisation. So much so that the current UN is good as it’s defunct predecessor the league of nations, that facilitated the events leading up to the second world war. World needs assertive leaders who can stand up to the bully boys in Washington and the relevant lickspittle thereof occupying the seats of power in their respective satellite nations

    * manifestly exhibiting systems of psychosis and Grandiose delusions; approving of some and and admonishing the other contributors in a manic and relentless manner.

    PS a picture is worth a thousand words

    • bevin

      Exactly. Not one but two of them preening themselves on their below stairs intimacy with the criminals who run things.

  • Node

    Stand aside, Helen Clark and the UN. Apparently the Middle East is an easy fix after all. U2 frontman and global statesman Bono has taken time off from mending Africa to focus his mighty intellect on ISIS.

    <blockquote"The Irish rock star told US congress that enlisting the help of the Hollywood actors would rob the nihilistic terror group of its power. "It's like, you speak violence, you speak their language. But you laugh at them when they are goose-stepping down the street and it takes away their power," Bono said. "So I am suggesting that the Senate sends in Amy Schumer and Chris Rock and Sacha Baron Cohen, thank you," he told the Senate subcommittee."

    Eat your heart out, Helen Clark, you didn’t think of that, did you?

    http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bono-send-amy-schumer-chris-rock-middle-east-fight-islamic-state-1554610

    • Node

      STOP PRESS

      U2 frontman Bono has finally stepped down from his position as Britain’s biggest twat. And after spending 10 years as the country’s premier tit, the pint-sized gobshite has decided to pass on his wanker mantle to fellow dickhead popstar Sting.

      “I’ve had a fantastic decade as the UK’s biggest tosspot,” he told Radio4’s Jim Naughtie. “I’ve made cringe-worthy speeches at the Labour party conference, I’ve campaigned on green issues while having my hat flown halfway across the world in a jumbo jet, and I’ve used my vast wealth to pursue former employees through the courts for the return of a pair of trousers.”

      “I’ve acted like an absolute bellend to the best of my abilities, but now it’s time to take a back seat,” he added

      http://viz.co.uk/bono-passes-twat-crown/

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      What has your post to do with the subject of this thread? Isn’t it a little silly even by your standards?

      PS – has that dodgy New Zealand website you used to get your anti- Israel “atrocity” and “genocide” lists from gone out of business? Or did you just fed up with posting that load of pretentious tripe week after week?

      Some transparency, please!

      • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

        I don’t consider any assassination attempt silly.

        The site isn’t a New Zealand one, and the article was posted or referred to on other sites.

        It’s Edward Chanter’s site in Brighton, England, and he told me that he was going to stop posting my articles on it in September for fear he would be sued by criminals I was referring to, and end up with too heavy damages, though he said he would continue keeping the site going, so posters could see them.

        Since then I have had my articles posted on flyingcuttlefish, veterans today, and on The Local, plus all the sites which post them without my permission or knowledge.

        The world is partially an incredible craphole because its media rarely talks about almost anything serious with any accuracy..

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          Trowbridge

          The “silly” was addressed to Node and not to you.

    • fedup

      When I read this little nugget this morning, I had a WTF moment!

      What gives, for this singer and musician to become involved in the international politics and to be doing something regards Daesh?

      Difficult to get one’s head around the current events, these days, singers come politicians, actors come presidents, billionaires who own it all wanting to run the show by passing the middlemen, and so on.

      Can you make head or tail of this Bono episode?

      Recollecting that St. Geldof and Bono were pleading the debt free Africa case before that fateful Thursday*, that turned everything upside down and gave us a better police state, does it mean we ought to get prepared for a “unexpected/accidental/Terroristic” nuclear detonation somewhere to start the WWIII for certain?

      * (just the day before the G important were to break up and go home, with jack achieved by the marchers, and the singers and the demonstrators, and the debt staying in place plus the interest)

  • Republicofscotland

    At first glance Helen Clark, appears to be an ideal candidate for the position.

    However the USA, has shall we say, very persuasive powers within the UN, and would much prefer a friendly face in the Secretary General seat.

    America does have form when it comes to, trying, to impose its will on the UN, they previously tried to have UN Secretary Boutrous Boutrous-Ghali removed from the position.

    _____________

    “I an unprecedented turn of events, the Secretary-General of the United Nations is accused by the United States of being an obstacle to reform, as well as being useless, conceited and a megalomaniac into the bargain, if not corrupt. The Clinton administration is not slow to rid itself of undesirables. Mr Boutros-Ghali is enjoined not to seek a second mandate, or he will be vetoed by Washington.”

    “The sole remaining superpower has declared war on a man who enjoys the sympathy of the vast majority of the member countries of the UN. No matter, comes the chilling reply from US representative Madeleine Albright. Her government’s decision is unchangeable: Mr Boutros-Ghali must go, whatever the opinion of the international community. The worst of all this is that the accusations against him are generally little more than unsubstantiated smears, originated anonymously and then taken up by the press.”

    https://mondediplo.com/1996/11/un

    • Martinned

      Yes, Boutrous-Ghali was fired, and in return Africa was given a second back-to-back slot. Any SG candidate needs to be acceptable to all five permanent members, but some are more willing to use their veto than others. Given that it’s Eastern Europe’s “turn”, I wonder whether Putin would veto a Kiwi (or any other non-Eastern European).

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      So which of the others would be your “ideal” candidate, RoS, on the basis of what you know of them. Or would you support none of them?

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        My 14.34pm comment should be a big hint, however, reading the candidates Vision Statements, is a bit like listening to a Miss World candidate, and how her vision (whilst giggling and playing with her hair) in the future is to make the world a better place.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    Meir Dagan’s missiom in New Zealand in 2004 was to assassinate Prime Minister Helen Clark, like the Mossad had helped doing the previous year to Yugoslavia’s Zoran Djindjic, Britain’s Dr. David Kelly, and Sweden Foreign Minister Anna Lindh.

    Now it’s out there!

        • Martinned

          If the shoe fits…

          I’m not normally one to cry anti-Semitism. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to criticise Israel and/or its government. But the amount of time commenters on this blog spend blaming everything on Israel – up to and including a Swedish minister being murdered by a Serb – and the frequency with which commenters on this blog bring up Israel in threads – up to and including a thread about the selection of the next UN Secretary-General, a post for which no candidate is Israeli, has the support or disapproval of the Israeli government, or in pursuit of which any candidate has even said anything noteworthy about Israel – leaves anti-Semitism as the only plausible hypothesis. Process of elimination and all that.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

            Right, when it comes to assassinations, i follow the idea that if the shoe fits, it must be right.

            Notice that you still steer clear of another Serb killing Djindjic, and no mention of the official Mossad kidon in Britain which killed Kelly with drugs, knives, and just sitting on him.

          • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

            I have said nothing about the Israelis being involved in the assassinations of JFK, MLK, RFK, Governor Wallace, Richard Cain, Chuckie Nicoletti, Olof Palme, Willie McRae et al. or even attempts on me. what would be most likely if I were anti-semitic.

            BTW, my deceased wife was a Jew.

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Agree, Martinned. Good to see that we’re on the same page again.

            I shall not praise you for having correctly identified the recurrent theme of Israel-hatred on this blog – one would have to be blind (or one of the Eminences) – not to notice.

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      The thing that I noticed about David Kelly’s death is that it occurred while Blair was visiting D.C. (and staying, ironically, in Blair House, the guest house across the street from the White House, which is almost certainly connected with it by an underground tunnel). That is when the male prostitute Jeff Guckert/Gannon claims to have been “entertaining” Blair (Tony Blair, not the house, although the entertaining presumably took place there). Gannon said he entertained Blair and now the SS logs may back him up.

      Blackmail? Looks like pretty strong evidence of U.S. complicity in the murder.

      • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

        Could also have been a reward, I suppose.

        Or a bit of both. Carrot and stick.

  • Republicofscotland

    There does seem to be a rather large contingent, of candidates from Eastern Europe.

    Nato, is currently seeking expansion in Eastern Europe in my opinion, and according to the first link, Nato is also building a huge military prescence in the region, which some are calling the “New Cold war” did the old one ever really end?

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/nato-is-planning-its-biggest-military-build-up-in-eastern-europe-since-the-cold-war-2016-2?r=US&IR=T

    The second link, shows the “Acceding and Candidate” countries, hoping to join the EU. Unsurprisingly of the five countries hoping to join, four are Eastern European, more interesting is, three of the candidate countries, also have candidates for the UN Secretary-General’s position.

    http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/international/non_eu/candidate/index_en.htm

    In my opinion, the new UN Secretary General, wil, hail from, Montenegro, Serbia or the former, Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

      • Republicofscotland

        Martinned.

        But it does say “speculative” if it were such a forgone conclusion that a Eastern European candidate would win, why throw in candidates from New Zealand and Portugal, unless of course Russia puts the kybosh on the other candidates.

        • Martinned

          It’s an unofficial rule, and it’s unclear whether it’ll be followed in this case, so it makes sense that the odd other person/government should throw their hat in the ring. The only limitation is the traditional reluctance of viable candidates to say on the record that they would like the job. (See also: how one appoints EU Council Presidents, all EU Commission Presidents before the current one, NATO Secretaries-General, etc.)

          • Republicofscotland

            Martinned.

            “It’s an unofficial rule, and it’s unclear”

            Well Martinned that’s cleared it up hasn’t it, you might have been better just saying you don’t know, it would’ve come across better. ?

            I’ve already checked out the sites you provided, thank you.

            It’s all as clear as mud now, but I still stand by my opinion that Putin may reject a Eastern European UN Secretary General, on whatever grounds, that why Portugal and New Zealand are in the mix.

  • Geoff

    Answer 5 in the linked article is indeed a quality response, but answer 8 is more than a little disappointing – BBC world news ‘programme of the year’… Really?

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      Notice what Harry Truman said about the 1961 plane crash that killed Dag Hammarskjöld:

      The day after the crash, former US president Harry Truman told reporters The day after the crash, former US president Harry Truman told reporters Hammarskjöld “was on the point of getting something done when they killed him. Notice that I said ‘when they killed him’.” Truman refused to elaborate but this served only to fuel the rumour mill. “was on the point of getting something done when they killed him. Notice that I said ‘when they killed him’.” Truman refused to elaborate but this served only to fuel the rumour mill.

      • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

        Someone seems not to have noticed that I have provided a link. Maybe he doesn’t understand links, since he never gives us any.

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          Yes, you linked to The Guardian, which used exactly the same words as you, ie ” former US president Harry Truman told reporters”.

          Bit vague, isn’t it?

          Where? Which reporters? If it was the day after the crash, presumably the reporters would have included Truman’s words in stories which would then have appeared in American newspapers – which newspapers?

          You really are a cheeky monkey :).

        • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

          A New York Times article of the time quoted Truman. The Mysterious Death of a UN Hero:

          Former President Harry S. Truman was convinced Hammarskjöld had been murdered. A Sept. 20, 1961 New York Times article quoted Truman as having told reporters, “Dag Hammarskjöld was on the point of getting something done when they killed him. Notice that I said ‘When they killed him.’”

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      The Truman quote got garbled somehow, so let me repeat it:

      The day after the crash, former US president Harry Truman told reporters Hammarskjöld “was on the point of getting something done when they killed him. Notice that I said ‘when they killed him’.” Truman refused to elaborate but this served only to fuel the rumour mill.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        Can you source that for us, Lysias?

        You have the habit of telling us things which turn out to be – shall we say – somewhat different from what was really said.

        Thanks.

          • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

            If he spent time sourcing, he wouldn’t have the time to make so many posts. Which does make me wonder if the speculation that he is paid by the number of his posts is really true.

    • Ack ack ack ack

      Good old Truman, always the disgruntled puppet ruler. The SecGen succession shows slipping CIA control.

      Trygve Lie: feckless Empty suit specially chosen to be Byron Price’s ventriloquist dummy.

      Dag Hammarskjöld: Unexpectedly competent so CIA shot him down in flames.

      U Thant: Shaking in his boots, no problemo.

      Kurt Waldheim: CIA installs an actual fucking Nazi, FTW!

      Javier Pérez de Cuéllar: Super self-effacing so Casey wouldn’t efface his self for him.

      Boutros Boutros-Ghali: Shitcanned for having a semblance of balls.

      Kofi Annan: Another mistake, way too good; Porter Goss was too bashful to kill him and Bolton, too chicken.

      Ban Ki-moon: Ultimately not enough of a nitwit for CIA.

  • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

    Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)
    April 13, 2016 at 14:21
    Martinned

    Last one from me, but feel free to carry on.

    Evidence of teamwork, as if we needed any.

    • fedup

      I flushed out the latest shill about three days after it’s start on this board. But you have caught them red-handed, as they are handing over and communicating thus.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      Lysias

      You are a good faker but you still have some way to go.

      My observation over the years us that there always come moments when the faker over-reaches himself.

      I advise you to re-read your recent comments to find the latest example… 🙂

  • Simon

    Craig I think you might be harming her chances 🙂

    I always think of New Zealand when Europeists say we need to be big to have any say. Or when Unionists say Scotland would be vulnerable and irrelevant. The world needs small friendly countries, preferably without natural enemies, especially English speaking ones. Scotland, Australia and Canada are huge disappointments. NZ is a bit of a shining star.

  • RobG

    For anyone interested, here’s Cenk Uygur interviewing Bernie Sanders last month (33 minutes long)…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFitmOTSok

    On the surface it’s a remarkable interview with a US presidential candidate.

    Below the surface there’s other stuff going on.

    I’m too tired at the moment to find some tie-in with New Zealand.

  • Republicofscotland

    According to this link USA made arms used by Saudi Arabia on indiscriminate Yemeni targets, has led to countless deaths, and widespread starvation.

    UNICEF, point this out but seem unable to do anything due to red tape, the report also claims the US and Saudi Arabia are committing war crimes in Yemen.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2016/04/u-s-saudis-causing-hundreds-thousands-children-starve-death-yemen.html

    Ban Ki-Moon, didn’t appear to make a difference to the slaughter in Yemen, will the next UN Secretary General show some initiative on the matter, don’t hold your breath.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      I like the way a couple of people have moved on to Yemen now that the Syria vein has (almost) been mined out.

      • RobG

        The Russians started military action in Syria at the end of last September, at the invitation of the UN recognised Syrian government. In a matter of months the Russians wiped the floor with ISIS, something that apparently the Americans were unable to do during two years of bombing (which has caused the biggest refugee crisis since WW2) and has killed huge numbers of people.

        I am not the only one who has had enough of the comic book stuff put forward by certain people on this board.

        We are coming for you.

        Make no mistake about that.

        • Kempe

          Brilliant. First criticise the US for illegally bombing targets in Syria then sneer because they didn’t do enough. Of course the more intensive bombing by Russia hasn’t killed anyone it didn’t intend to and hasn’t contributed in any way to the nine million Syrians currently displaced from their homes.

          • Anon1

            Exactly. They were hopping mad about civilian casualties when our four Tornados were deployed to Syria, but look at the about turn once Russian heavy bombing got going!

        • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

          The odious snitch seems not to like discussions of the Saudi war crimes in Yemen. When he was going on and on about the bombings in Brussels, and I challenged him to say something about the Saudi bombing of the market in Yemen with U.S.-made bombs, which killed about three times as many innocent civilians as the bombings in Brussels, he said nothing.

          • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

            And now he says that the answer in Yemen is to repeat what is generally regarded as the last military action of the British Empire. Isn’t that just what Saudi Arabia is trying and failing to do?

          • Republicofscotland

            Lysais.

            Yes, you do have a point there, which is surprising, in my opinion Saudi Arabia, and Israel have a somewhat uneasy alliance, for now they have a common enemy in Iran. However, if in the future Iran suffers a similar fate, to say, Iraq or Libya, and it’s not an impossibility, then that uneasy and mutal alliance that binds Saudi Arabia to Israel, could unravel in a spectacular fashion.

            That Lysais, is why in my opinion, you won’t read comments from the establishment boys, and girls putting Saudi Arabia down, for now anyway.

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Lysias seems to have a fine contempt for readers’ ability to understand and to remember.

            “The odious snitch seems not to like discussions of the Saudi war crimes in Yemen. ”
            __________________________

            No, I don’t mind- discuss away. But i do confess to a certain perplexity when I see you Yemen on every second thread irrespective of what the rest of us are talking about.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            “When he was going on and on about the bombings in Brussels,”
            _________________________

            A slight exaggeration there, I think. And surely not as “on and on” as you with Yemen and various conspiracies (often raised in order that you light tell us of your latest reading)? 🙂

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            ~”…and I challenged him to say something about the Saudi bombing of the market in Yemen with U.S.-made bombs, which killed about three times as many innocent civilians as the bombings in Brussels, he said nothing.”

            ________________________

            Sorry, but what was the point of the challenge?

            ****************************

            There now, my pugnacious Irish-American Friend – I have given you some attention. Carry on! 🙂

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      re Yemen : Oh for Lieutenant-Colonel Colin Campbell Mitchell (“Mad Mitch”) and the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders!

  • giyane

    Mossad forges passports? What about the forging of memory loss by psychotic drugs?

    Which is the more dangerous, entering places incognito or being brain=washed to forget your own self?

    Islamic State is a false flag on many levels, the least of which is fake passports, and the worst is the rendition of individual conscience.

    Fuck off Habbafake

  • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

    The Italian Coastguard reports that around 4000 immigrants have been rescued at sea so far this month.

    It says that most of those rescued come from West Africa.

    Since the massive influx of refugees is obviously all the fault of the West (and of the US and UK in particular), the West must be bombing the hell out of a few West African countries right now.

    Curiously, though, I have heard absolutely nothing about such bombing, whether in the MSM or on alternative blogs such as this one.

    Can anyone explain what’s going on?

    • Loony

      There is a flaw in your reasoning.

      Direct bombing is only one method of destabilizing an area. Another method is to destroy a functioning country, Libya for example. Once the country is destroyed you simply sit back and watch the weapons (weapons that you have previously supplied to Libya) be exported to such places as Chad, Niger, Mali and Nigeria. As these countries already suffer from the presence of violent and irregular political actors then supplying them with weapons allows them to intensify their various conflicts.

      This tactic facilitates the destabilization of a much wider area than the actual area selected for attack. In the parlance it provides a “bigger bang for the buck,”

      Since there is evidence to suggest that western populations are becoming increasingly idiotic (I recommend the film Idiocracy) then this tactic also allows for plausible deniability since idiots will be looking skyward for bombers when the real action is elsewhere.

      I trust this satisfies your request for an explanation.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        I’m afraid it doesn’t quite, Loony.

        That’s mainly because your screed rests on the assumption that the West is attempting to destabilise West Africa (let’s say Senegal, Gambia, Guinea Conakry, Guinea Bissau, Nigeria, Ghana, Togo, Benin, Ivory Coast…).

        I wonder if you could explain to those of us not into hatred of the West and/or conspiracy theories exactly why you think the West is trying to destabilise West Africa and what you think it would gain from such an intention?

        Take your time (you may need to peruse the usual websites before you answer).

        • Loony

          Thank you for your list of West African countries – most informative. Could there be any reason why you omitted mention of Equatorial Guinea? An understanding of what (almost) happened there requires no assumptions, no recourse to conspiracy theories and no reliance on emotive terms such as “hatred of the west.” Uncontested facts provide the full answer.

          To take just one example from your less than exhaustive list: Senegal is a poor country and traditionally relied on a fairly primitive fishing industry to provide both occupation and food. Spain, is a less poor country, with a population that has a diet high in seafood. Using its superior technology Spain over fished the waters traditionally fished by the Senegalese thus creating a fish shortage and consequential harm to the Senegalese economy.

          So to answer your question: In this specific example Spain gained fish, and the consequent impoverishment of Senegal was of no concern to the fish eaters.

          Happy now?

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            So rapacious Spanish fishermen are the agents of Western destabilisation of Senegal? A little thin if you don’t mind me saying so.

            But don’t just take one example from my almost complete list. Take another couple of the larger countries and tell us how and why the West is destabilising them. How about Ghana (Craig will be able to check what you say) and Ivory Coast? Make me happy and prove your point.

            BTW – have you ever seen the EU-Senegal Fisheries Agreement? It’s been around since the 1980s. Google, read and learn.

          • Loony

            I do not mind what you say. However what you say is devoid of reason. For your remark to have reason it would need to explain why the Senegalese fishing industry collapsed and why so many people sought to leave Senegal concurrent with the collapse.

            I am not familiar with the EU-Senegal Fisheries Agreement, but I do know that reading the 1938 Munich Agreement would not allow me to logically conclude that the UK did not declare war on Germany less than one year later.

            To play your game a little more. It is my understanding that there are more Ghanaian Doctors practicing medicine outside of Ghana (mainly in the west) than there are in Ghana. Ask why this might be? Is it for example cheaper to import Doctors than it is to train them from scratch? Ask what the effects might be on Ghana if a majority of its Doctors emigrate.

            I cannot provide material help with regard to the situation in the Ivory Coast, but understand that it is subject to material French influence. This being the case it would be my expectation that the policies followed by the Ivory Coast would be in the interests of France as opposed to being in the interests of the Ivory Coast.

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Thank you for that, Loony.

            Now, while needing to take care not to exaggerate the numbers involved, I’d certainly agree that Western countries are doing (certain) African countries no favours by recruiting their doctors.

            But the problem also arises from the fact that most African countries accord their health services a rather low priority** when it comes to the allocation of govt revenues (to which should be added corruption and the misappropriation of earmarked funds from both inside and outside by the elites and their hangers-on). The consequence is that doctors are paid a pittance and medical facilities run-down or barely existent (this is worse in the country areas, of course); they have little incentive to stay.

            More generally, and to return to your underlying thesis, I do not believe that the two examples you have furnished (fisheries in the Senegal EEZ and doctors in Ghana) demonstrate convincingly the existence of a Western intention (or plot or conspiracy) to destabilse the countries of West Africa: they are, rather, indicative of the (unfortunate) workings of individual human nature, be it of European fishermen, African doctors after a better living and the members of West African govts and ‘elites’.

            ************************

            I happen to know something about EU fisheries agreements with African countries and could illustrate some of what I’ve said by reference to how they work in practice – if you’re interested, that is.

          • Loony

            If you are looking for a western intention or plot or conspiracy to engage in destabilization then you need look no further than Equatorial Guinea – It satisfies the definitions of “plot” “intention” and “conspiracy”

            Perhaps a better way of understanding the actions of the west is to focus on recklessness – i.e. engaging in dangerous activity whilst remaining unconcerned as to the risks or possible outcomes. Allowing large amounts of weaponry to be exported from Libya to states to the south and west of Libya would meet the definition of reckless.

            The actions of the west often have the effect of further impoverishing already impoverished nations. There is a link between poverty and violence and a link between poverty and migration. That the west is unconcerned that its policies spawn increased violence and increased migration is another example of recklessness.

            Back to fish for one final time. At the height of the Somalian piracy epidemic a number of Spanish fishing vessels were captured or attacked by pirates. What were Spanish fishing vessels doing off Somalia? Can you imagine the response of the EU if Somalian fishing vessels suddenly appeared in the Baltic

          • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

            Threecomments in reply to yours of 12h13 (for which, thx):

            1/. I can largely accept what you write in the two middle paras. But recklessness is recklessness, not evidence of a conspiracy or intention to subvert the states of West Africa.
            (BTW – there appears to be something amiss with the last sentence in para 3).

            2/. Re Equatorial Guinea – if you’re talking about the affair in which Mark Thatcher was involved in, then OK, there was a plot to overthrow the extremely nasty President of the place. But again, there is no evidence of involvement by Western European pr the US govts. If I recall, the plotters were a few mercenaries and an exiled Equatorial Guinea politician.

            3/. And also to finish with fish: I don’t know what the Spanish vessels were doing there but the question is ‘where was there’? If they were fishing within the Somalia EEZ (ie, within 200 miles of the coastline) in the absence of an EU-Somalia Fisheries Agreement**, then they shouldn’t have been. They would however have been perfectly within their rights to be fishing outside the EEZ, ie, in international waters ,in which case they would probably have been following tuna on its migration.

            Hope that wraps it up for now.

            ___________________________

            ** Preliminary negotiations for an EU-Somalia Fisheries Agreement took place in the 1980s and got nowhere at that stage. Afterwards there was no Somalia govt to negotiate with. I don’t know whether an Agreement was concluded subsequently.

    • Anon1

      Not forgetting the migrants from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria, Somalia, Sudan etc. Even thousands of the ‘Syrian’ migrants are travelling on fake passports, having heard that entry to Europe is easier for Syrians.

      • Loony

        There is no shortage of migrants, Why would there be?

        Europe has seemingly decided that it has limitless amounts of “free stuff” to offer to limitless amounts of aliens. Under these conditions there is no effective limit to the people who consider Europe an attractive destination.

        Ask why this is? Why did Germany effectively decide to abandon the rule of law as it applies to refugees. Why does it fail to discriminate as between migrants and refugees as the law requires it to do? Who told Germany to behave in the way that it is behaving and why is there no international pressure on Germany to respect the rule of law?

        Is the silence of the US in someway relevant? Is the fact that the UK is gearing up for an EU referendum in any way significant?

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          The first part of your “comment”, Loony, would appear to suggest that Europe should make life much more unattractive for migrants.

          Or have I mis-read you?

          • Loony

            Your “comment” (Is there a special linguistic reason for putting the word comment in quotation marks? I am always keen to learn) presupposes that Europe has choices.

            If you care to peruse the historic motivations for introducing the welfare state and the economic underpinning of social benefits you may come to the conclusion that the benefits offered were not intended to be available to anyone and everyone

            Stealing Senegalese fish is unlikely to provide sufficient wealth to meet the benefits now seemingly being offered. If you think about it carefully you may realize that in order to demonstrate the anti racist, humanitarian and caring policy toward migrants it will be necessary to step up the theft of other peoples resources.

            As I previously mentioned there is some evidence to suggest that western populations are being increasingly infected with idiocy.

    • RobG

      He obviously gets paid per comment.

      His time would be better spent researching concepts like ‘morality’ and ‘ethics’.

    • fedup

      40 percent of the “comments” have been by the keyboard brigade busy “contributing” their own version of “reality”. This is designed to actively disrupt and stifle any debate of any sorts relevant to the topic.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        I should have thought that a diversity of opinions would contribute to debate rather than to stifle it, Fedup?

        Gamma double minus – again.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      Mary used to count my excellent comments as well. 🙂

      I could never work out whether they excited or depressed her.

      How about you?

  • Republicofscotland

    European Parliament president Martin Schulz, speaks about a growing mistrust of the EU, by Eurosceptic movements, across Europe.

    “Many people have lost trust in “entire institutions, whether national or European,” EU parliament Chief Martin Schulz says. He sounded the alarm over a possible “implosion of the EU” due to the underestimated Euroskeptic movements in member states.”

    “Europe has been on a sliding slope for some time now. Many people’s trust in institutions, whether national or European, has gone,” Schulz said in an interview with the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung newspaper.”

    “Hardly any of the governments is fighting to reach the hearts of the people,” Schulz said, blaming heads of states and administrations for the loss of confidence.”

    “There is a high risk of an “implosion of the EU,” Schulz added.
    “If the British leave the EU, there will be [other] demands for further escape referendums,” he warned.”

    https://www.rt.com/news/339284-schulz-warns-implosion-eu/

    • Anon1

      “”Hardly any of the governments is fighting to reach the hearts of the people,” Schulz said, blaming heads of states and administrations for the loss of confidence.”

      The cheek!

      • Republicofscotland

        Anon1.

        Well I can understand why, the Greeks, Portuguese, and possibly the Italians would feel deflated, economy wise, the Greeks and Italians have the added worry of the mass influx of refugees. Both Greece and Italy are working on a threadbare budget to scrutinise who is a genuine refugee and who isn’t. Whilst other EU leader, deliver veiled threats if the immigrants/refugees aren’t processed properly.

        Has there been any national polls throughout Europe to test the mood of Europeans over such a huge influx of immigrants? More to the point can EU nations afford to take more refugees? And could the persistent call for EU nations especially by Germany, to take more refugees, be turning other EU nations against not only the refugees but the EU itself.

        The influx of refugees to Europe is in my opinion unprecedented, what were the EU heads thinking of when they intimated that EU countries were prepared, financially and more importantly infrastructural wise, to accept them, most refugees come from a completely different culture, way of life, and some may find it very difficult to assimilate to Western culture, a point not mentioned enough.

        In my opinion, efforts should be concentrated on helping refugees in their own countries, the UN and Nato in particular are guilty in my opinion of turning a blind eye to that particular issue, which could destabilise European cooperation between nations.

        • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

          As was done in Irak, by the coalition powers, through the creation of a safe zone for the Kurds.

          • Republicofscotland

            Habb.

            Yes exactly, Operation Haven (British ), also known as Operation Provide Comfort (US) provided a safe designated zone in Northern Iraq for Kurds, it was deemed highly successful.

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Provide_Comfort

            Taking that into account, regarding the current refugee crisis, there seem to be a distinct lack of political will to initiate a similar plan of action. Questions must be asked as to why that is, surely it’s better to relocate citizens of a nation, to another part of that particular nation, creating a safe zone. Rather than force them to flee to Europe.

          • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

            RoS, exactly, unless Washington wants to destabilize Europe.

          • Republicofscotland

            Lysais.

            Yes there is always a distinct possibility that, there are ulterior motives, to flooding Europe with refugees.

          • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

            It’s one way to get rid of a competitor. The period of the U.S.’s greatest power and the beginning of the period of its greatest prosperity was the 1950’s, when it didn’t really have any competitors. Most Americans (not the blacks) regard it with nostalgia, as a golden age.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      I’m not at all convinced that Mr Schulz and the European Parliament are doing much to bolster confidence either.

      • Republicofscotland

        Habb.

        Well maybe Mr Schulz is a pragmatist, in the sense that he sees a problem, a serious one at that, and has aired it in the hope of EU nations reaching some form of agreement on the matter, of the rise of Euroscepticsm within EU nations.

        Lets look at it objectively, many EU nations are now rebelling at the thought of accepting more refugees. Even Germany is considering whether or not to restrict or limit refugee intake. Brexit could be seen as a defining point, (bearing in mind that Britain is a prominent contributor to the EU) other EU nations (if Britain leaves) may decide to follow, leaving the European Union in a weakened state.

  • Alan

    Wow, that sure made the resident troll cackle too. Keep up the good work Craig. I went out in the sunshine myself, and thus got a good laugh at the cackling when I got home 🙂

  • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

    Far from merely threatening to stop intelligence cooperation with New Zealand, the U.S. imposed restrictions on the cooperation in the 1980’s as retaliation for New Zealand’s anti-nuclear policies, and full ties were not restored until 2009. US cables spill beans on NZ ties.

  • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

    New Zealand Herald: Terence O’Brien: Iraq mission case of misguided foreign policy (Feb. 26, 2015):

    The implications of 143 NZ Defence Force personnel on a mission to train Iraqi troops to fight Isis (Islamic State, Isil) was the subject of a forum at Parliament last night, organised by foreign affairs specialists Diplosphere.

    Among the speakers was Terence O’Brien (former diplomat and senior fellow at Victoria’s Centre for Strategic Studies). What he said included the following:

    The explanation now given for the NZ military commitment to Iraq actually contradicts campaign testimony, and signals a step change in NZ policy, even as the country has hardly warmed its Council seat.

    The commitment is portrayed as the price for NZ membership of the Five Eyes intelligence sharing arrangement.

    So apparently the New Zealand government is now saying that it has to participate in Iraq military activities in order to share in Five Eyes intelligence.

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      Here is what Russel Norman of the New Zealand Greens says about this current (2016) New Zealand military intervention in Iraq, Speech: The Worst-kept Secret – NZ Forces to Iraq:

      This decision to go to war was of course not a decision taken in Wellington but in Washington. As John Key revealingly told us, NZ is going to war because that is the price we pay in order to be a member of the Club, by which he means the Five Eyes club headed up by the United States, including Australia, Canada and the UK.

      • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

        OK, Lysias, here’s the deal:

        you get down to some work in that Washington office of yours (it’s about 3pm there, I believe)

        and

        I’ll settle down to a funny sitcom on television and try not to fret about the Yemen.

        Whaddya think, pardner?

        • Sarky Sid

          Well let’s see Habbabkuk, you made your first post at 10.52, on what has really been a beautifully warm sunny day, and at 20.47, after a hard day’s posting, you’re now going to watch TV??

          What an exciting life you lead Habbabkuk?

          P.S. That last line was sarcasm, in case you didn’t know.

          • bevin

            Do you think that anyone with experience of the real world could titter appreciatively over videos showing the “robust” tactics of the Israeli police, or apologise for the child massacres in Gaza?

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      “…is portrayed as..” – by whom, Lysias?

      If it’s only by you then I don’t think we need to take that gobbet too seriously.

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      Oh, I see – it’s Russell Normn of the New Zealand Greens who’s doing the portraying.

      I am underwhelmed.

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      “Is portrayed as” obviously means by the NZ government. This is clear from the context of O’Brien’s remarks. And the Green Norman also says that that is what the NZ government (of PM Key) has said.

  • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

    John Key: The price of being part of Five Eyes is joining ISIS fight (Jan. 20, 2015):

    Prime Minister John Key says any support from New Zealand for the fight against ISIS is “the price of the club”, in being part of the Five Eyes spying alliance.

    . . .

    Mr Key says New Zealand is not immune to the threat ISIS poses and can’t solely rely on Britain and the United States to do “all the heavy lifting”.

    “I think all countries have to make some sort of contribution and that’s a realistic one from our point of view,” he said.

    Mr Key says helping the United States and Britain in the fight against terrorism is about being a part “of the club”.

    That was a year ago, and now, as a result of this thinking, New Zealand is sending troops to Iraq.

    • lysias (DON'T FEED THE TROLLS)

      That Key by “the club” meant the Five Eyes alliance is made clear by what he went on to say, as quoted in that article:

      The “club” Mr Key is referring to is The Five Eyes Alliance, an intelligence gaining group comprising New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Britain and the United States.

      “Are we going to be part of the club, with Five Eyes intelligence, or are we ultimately going to be able to rely upon the members of those clubs to support us in our moment of need,” Mr Key says.

      “I think if you’re going to take that view you can’t say when the going gets tough you’re just going to leave it to the other guys even if the contribution is small. Of course it will be proportional, there has to be some contribution, it’s the price of the club.”

    • Habbabkuk (flush out fakes)

      “That was a year ago”

      _____________________

      Exactly.

      But who’s doing the “portraying” in April 2016?

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