It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid. 442


No rational person could blame Jeremy Corbyn for Brexit. So why are the Blairites moving against Corbyn now, with such precipitate haste?

The answer is the Chilcot Report. It is only a fortnight away, and though its form will be concealed by thick layers of establishment whitewash, the basic contours of Blair’s lies will still be visible beneath. Corbyn had deferred to Blairite pressure not to apologise on behalf of the Labour Party for the Iraq War until Chilcot is published.

For the Labour Right, the moment when Corbyn as Labour leader stands up in parliament and condemns Blair over Iraq, is going to be as traumatic as it was for the hardliners of the Soviet Communist Party when Khruschev denounced the crimes of Stalin. It would also destroy Blair’s carefully planned post-Chilcot PR strategy. It is essential to the Blairites that when Chilcot is debated in parliament in two weeks time, Jeremy Corbyn is not in place as Labour leader to speak in the debate. The Blairite plan is therefore for the parliamentary party to depose him as parliamentary leader and get speaker John Bercow to acknowledge someone else in that fictional position in time for the Chilcot debate, with Corbyn remaining leader in the country but with no parliamentary status.

Yes, they are that nuts.

If the fault line for the Tories is Europe, for Labour it is the Middle East. Those opposing Corbyn are defined by their enthusiasm for bombing campaigns that kill Muslim children. And not only by the UK. Both of the first two to go, Hilary Benn and Heidi Alexander, are hardline supporters of Israel.

This was Benn the week before his celebrated advocacy of bombing Syria:

Shadow Foreign Secretary Hilary Benn told a Labour Friends of Israel (LFI) lunch yesterday that relations with Israel must be based on cooperation and rejected attempts to isolate the country.

Addressing senior party figures in Westminster, Benn praised Israel for its “progressive spirit, vibrant democracy, strong welfare state, thriving free press and independent judiciary.” He also called Israel “an economic giant, a high-tech centre, second only to the United States. A land of innovation and entrepreneurship, venture capital and graduates, private and public enterprise.”

Consequently, said Benn, “Our future relations must be built on cooperation and engagement, not isolation of Israel. We must take on those who seek to delegitimise the state of Israel or question its right to exist.”

Heidi Alexander actually signed, as a 2015 parliamentary candidate, the “We Believe in Israel” charter, the provisions of which state there must be no boycotts of Israel, and Israel must not be described as an apartheid state.

This fault line is very well defined. The manufactured row about “anti-Semitism” in the Labour Party shows exactly the same split. In my researches, 100% of those who have promoted accusations of anti-Semitism were supporters of the Iraq War and/or had demonstrable links to professional pro-Israel lobby groups. 100% of those accused of anti-Semitism were active opponents of the Iraq War. Never underestimate the Blairite fury at being shown not just to be liars but to be wrong. Iraq is their Achilles heel and they are extremely touchy about it.

No rational person would believe Brexit was Jeremy Corbyn’s fault. No rational person would believe that now is a good moment for the Labour Party to tear itself apart. Extraordinarily, the timing is determined by Chilcot.


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442 thoughts on “It’s Still the Iraq War, Stupid.

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  • bevin

    “the fight itself was the issue, stop obfuscating about nuance in arguments about the merits or demerits of the EU, that’s a wholly separate conversation. Corbyn, once he’d made the decision to support remain, had a duty to put his whole being into that fight…”

    This really explains a lot about your contributions to the discussion, Jim. Like your friends in the political class-just roundly rejected across England, you regard politics as a game in which those engaged must never consider that they might be mistaken.

    Corbyn did not just have a right to act as he did- saying nothing which offended his principles; refusing to campaign with the enemies of those he represents- he had a duty to do so.
    Had Blair and the rest of those that you support listened to their consciences, been honest with themselves, held themselves to the sort of decent standards, that ordinary people expect of others and attempt to match themselves, the British government would not have sacrificed the lives of hundreds of our soldiers and millions of Arabs merely in order that Tony might to feel himself “one of the boys’ on Bush’s Texas ranch.

    The great majority of those leading the Labour Party lied to the people and concealed the truth-that the war had no legally defensible purpose- from those who trusted them. It is the breaking of that trust which lies behind the decline in Labour’s core support- not a sudden discovery of racist ideas or an inability to understand their best interests.

    Someone-above- said that it is is not Corbyn’s place to apologise for Iraq. But that is wrong:? Corbyn and everyone who marched against the war, all of us, know that part of the blame is ours. We could have done more. We should have done more- a general strike perhaps, certainly a refusal to re-elect Blair in 2005.
    It is incumbent on Corbyn to apologise to humanity and history for this crime committed in the name and paid for out of the public revenues of the Labour movement and the British people.
    Thomas Cook should be running “sack cloth and ashes” tours to the Middle East.

    • Jim

      Stop lying, I do not support Blair and have said so many times on this forum.
      Corbyn’s duty from the moment he made the commitment as leader of the Labour Party was to engage using every tool available to press that message home to the public. He chose the downright juvenile path outlined so devastatingly in the ‘insiders view’ piece I posted. That’s truly letting down the people you claim to care about.
      And nobody seems to want to address the issue of the 30% decline in Labour support since the 2015 election. Whatever ‘grassroots’ support people keep banging on about, the message isn’t getting through to those people, quite the opposite.

          • Chris Rogers

            Jim,

            More bollocks from The Guardian I see, a newspaper that plumbs the depths in its detestation of Corbyn and anything that threatens the neoliberal new world order. Great stuff, all fantasy written by bubble heads in London – perhaps a few of these so called journalists should do what John harris does, but then that would mean leaving the confines of the M25 and see how many actually live in rather deprived post industrial town’s and cities, the type of places I hail from.

          • nevermind

            lest have a poll on the lack of PM leadership ‘ should D. Cameron resign now and the new Brexit PM take over?’.

            Or this one’ do you think the Conservative party is split?’

            This referendum was enticed by and executed by the Conservative party, nobody else and here we are playing the media’s trumpet singing ‘get Corbyn’.

            The vote is over, you are leaving, so whoever has got the plan and paddle, give it to Boris/Gove/May whoever so you can TAKE CONTROL and TAKE YOUR COUNTYRY BACK. Come on Jim boy don’t sit ebhind your keyboard, get active, what are you doing for your dream ticket?
            Writing here is not being active, although I would not put it past you to nick a few good ideas and send them on to uncle Boris, poor mutt looks lost, he needs you….

          • Jim

            Chris :

            Yeah, places like Ebbw Vale which have received massive amounts of EU regeneration funding, but still bought Farage’s toxic lies hook line and sinker.
            And your vote against the ‘neo-liberal world order’ has taken into something almost certainly more unpleasant, with no chance of having a voice to change things any more. Like TTIP, which has been stalled by the democratic Europe wide coalition against it. 3 million petitioners had some effect. We can’t hope to join that fight when this Tory shower are booted out, because you’ve just joined the Farageist lot with your vote. We’ve got the lovely prospect of four more years of something far more extreme and unpleasant than Cameron. Cheers for that Chris.

          • Chris Rogers

            Jim,

            Your analysis is so full of bollocks its breath taking. Luckily, Wales being small and only having 40 Parliamentary constituencies makes it quite easy to look at whats been happening at the polls in all elections over the past quarter century – go check the facts, go see what support UKIP had, go see what support the BNP, combine these votes, look at Labour, look at Plaid, look at the bloody Greens, but please, please don’t accuse me or my fellow countrymen of falling for either BNP, UKIP or Tory lies – the facts are there, do check and stop living in cloud cuckoo land with many other supposed Labourites who ain’t bloody Labour.

          • Jim

            Ebbw Vale just voted out, squirm and twist all you like with your historic data, the facts are that notwithstanding vast amounts of EU regeneration funding, Farage’s bullshit won the day. And you voted out too.

          • glenn_uk

            Jim: Wales has never been known for right-wing tendencies. Most people here are solid Labour supporters, who rightly despise Tories. They wisely voted against Cameron just last year. Can you understand how they might have a bit of a problem following Cameron’s orders, and obediently trotting off to the polls to vote the way he’s telling them to?

      • Loony

        Corbyn said he supported the EU – but with reservations. Pretty much everyone has reservations about the EU – I have never heard it described as the most perfect institution known to man.

        Do you consider the EU to be the perfect institution? If you do not then you lack grounds to criticize Corbyn. Or is it the case that your criticism of Corbyn is based on him telling the truth, and that you consider him to have had a duty to lie.

        For what reason would support for the Labour Party not be declining? Support would probably declined more precipitously had it not been for Corbyn. Who does the Labour Party actually represent?

        The aggregate of the political class clearly does not represent the electorate – the EU referendum result proves that contention. So far there is no sign that the political class intends to represent the people. Rather they are sneering at the stupidity of the population and making plans to punish them – perhaps in a less obvious way than that promised by Osbourne.

        The world has seen out of touch elites in many other times and in many other places, most obviously UK/USA (1776), France (1789) and Russia (1917)..

        The global economy has not recovered from 2007 and stands on the verge of another precipitous collapse. Politicians lack both the will and the ability to address the problems before us. They are not relevant and are in danger of being swept aside. Your contribution to the debate is infantile.

        • Jim

          For the zillionth time, I’ve been banging on ad nauseam agreeing with the critiques outlined by people like Yanis Varoufakis, Owen Jones and Paul Mason regarding the necessity for reformation of the ‘monster’ that the EU and it’s neo-liberal agenda had become. The UK’s potential to engage in that monumental battle has just disappeared, as may the EU itself now we’ve severely weakened it by our exit.

          Varoufakis’ contention has been that such a scenario, in the context of a likely economic crash, and the rise of the type of xenophobic far right politics Farage represents in the ascendant all over Europe, will be very dangerous. Dangerous in a 1930’s type of way. Look where that ended up.

          • Loony

            So you agree that the EU is not perfect. It therefore follows that your criticism of Corbyn is that he has told the truth, and in your opinion he should have lied.

            Whilst your opinion is ludicrous I suppose it is at least honest. But the honesty makes it even more ludicrous given your belief that people have a duty to lie.

          • Jim

            No, Varoufakis is hugely critical of the anti democratic institutions of the EU. Nobody disparages them more. I agree with him. He nevertheless argues that maintaining tbe UK’s place in the EU was imperative in order for us to have a voice in any fight to change its democratic deficit. That’s gone now.
            Corbyn’s duty was to swallow his pride and forget the relatively trivial party political resentments he of course has for the likes of Cameron, and argue the case for remain using every tool available. He didn’t. And look where we are now.
            Get it yet?

          • Loony

            Jim You claim Corbyn had a duty to lie, and your general opinions are conditioned by the views of Varoufakis.

            Given the reasons for your criticism of Corbyn, then it is highly likely Varoufakis is lying, or at least that you genuinely believe him to be lying.

            Therefore for all people with an interest in establishing the truth your opinions are not likely to be useful

          • Macky

            I hope you are not seriously suggesting that BREXIT happened because in your opinion Corbyn didn’t work enough for Leave ?!

            We are here only because Cameron overestimated his PR skills, got it yet ?

            The Referendum is over, yet you “Lefty” Remainers instead of accepting the result & moving on to capitalise against the very thing that you scare-mongered with, ie an even more right wing Tory government, you seem more intent to self-fulfill your Project Fear scenario in aiding the Tories by attacking the`man they fear the most.

          • Jim

            You people are delusional to a quite extraordinary degree. The concept that Jeremy Corbyn has had the Tory party quaking in their boots is beyond laughable.
            Loony :
            Corbyn made a commitment to argue the remain case, his feeble efforts reveal his true feelings, so that is dishonest. You are not really making any sense.

            Macky :
            You’ve been posting excited links to Marine Le Pen’s reaction to the result,so any pretence you masquerade behind as some sort of leftist is risible.

          • Macky

            Jim; “The concept that Jeremy Corbyn has had the Tory party quaking in their boots is beyond laughable”

            LOL ! I guess that the unprecedented non-stop demonising by TPTB & their media whores is because they don’t fear him at all !! 😀

            “You’ve been posting excited links to Marine Le Pen’s reaction to the result,so any pretence you masquerade behind as some sort of leftist is risible.”

            !!! Have I ?? Certainly news to me ! Sure you got the right person,? 😀

      • bevin

        Bevin:
        “…The great majority of those leading the Labour Party lied to the people and concealed the truth-that the war had no legally defensible purpose- from those who trusted them. It is the breaking of that trust which lies behind the decline in Labour’s core support- not a sudden discovery of racist ideas or an inability to understand their best interests.”

        Jim’s reply:
        “…And nobody seems to want to address the issue of the 30% decline in Labour support since the 2015 election. Whatever ‘grassroots’ support people keep banging on about, the message isn’t getting through to those people, quite the opposite.”

        • Jim

          Yes, the Blair years and the Iraq war were at the forefront of all those ex-Labour voters lapping up the toxic racist drivel pouring from Farage and Johnson and Gove’s lying little mouths. How could I miss the obvious.

          Meanwhile in the real world, here’s the latest on Corbyn the man of principle. :

          http://gu.com/p/4myn4?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

          • Macky

            @Jim. I wasted my time reading Phil Wilson’s Corbyn hit-piece, as it was particularly lame & weak-ass stuff, offering no substantive points even worth half-acknowledging; is this really the mediocre standard of some MP’s writing efforts ?!

            I noticed that you have yet to acknowledge that your claim that I was “posting excited links to Marine Le Pen’s reaction to the result” is totally false, so in the absence of an apology, I am left to assume that it was another dishonest smearing attempt.

            You seem to be repeatedly quoting Yanis Varoufakis to try & support your povs, perhaps you should now at least be consistent and pay very close attention as to who he blames for BREXIT;

            http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Varoufakis-Blames-Neoliberals-Like-Hillary-Clinton-for-Brexit-20160625-0008.html

  • K Crosby

    What is it now, Eight? Fainting couches a-go-go. I haven’t laughed so much since Ooh-Aah Hezbollah thrashed the zionists in 2006.

  • Tony_0pmoc

    Will there be any meat in Chilcot, (Blair’s former mate) or will it be an enormous mound of gristle and shit, covered in rock hard icing sugar and almost impossible to penetrate without a pneumatic drill?

    • Chris Rogers

      Tony,

      It will be the latter I’m afraid, but truth will out – now lets get the bugger to The Hague to stand trial for War Crimes with his good friend Jack Straw.

  • Dave

    The UK has radically changed and the public is disaffected with the establishment and eventually the politics catch up. The old two party system is almost over and thus the expectation that either Lab or Con can win a General Election, in the popular sense, is outdated.

    Left and Right are divided between UK Left/Right and EU Left/Right and less publicly by a Israel vs Palestine divide and a change in the voting system is needed to reflect this.

    Another divide is between a middle and a smaller working class and Labour won’t win with just the working class vote, even if they can retain it. The solution for Labour (and for everyone) isn’t chasing a few swing voters in marginal seats that brings politics into disrepute, but transparent coalition politics via voting reform.

    • michael norton

      There is a flaw there

      quite recently we had a Referendum on do you agree with Nick Clegg,
      the voters did not agree with anything Nick Clegg wanted, so we stuck with first past the post.

      • nevermind

        senseless nonsense. MP’s grudgingly decided not to grant voters the choice over electoral systems, they do not want their electorate to have fair votes at all, and that stands for both Labour and Tory’s.

        What does that mean if a politician is not interested in furthering fairness and openness for their constituency voters?
        It means that they are only interested in how they can make a buck and keep their party in power.

        That stooges like you defending an ancient ignorant electoral system is not surprising there are lots of you. I shan’t debate the advantages or deficiencies of system here with you, as your voice is inconsequential, wasted.

        You should be helping Boris, boar.

      • K Crosby

        AV was a fake choice adn was treated as such. STV or similar is a real choice.

        • michael norton

          We only have first past the post in England,
          they can have what they want in Scotland
          when they become The Peoples Democratic Socialist State of Scotland.

    • Craig MacInnes

      Errrr..I take it by UK radically changed like so many commentators you really mean England. Scotland has had an excellent alternative to London parties for quite some time now. I feel a degree of sympathy for your average voter in England. Just who can you possibly vote for to get any degree of competent government which actually puts the interests of the populace first? Let’s face it half of the English vote on Thursday didn’t have a clue what they were actually voting about but saw it as an opportunity to give the English political class a bloody nose…and who can really blame them!

  • Ba'al Zevul

    Specific cause-and effect? Or coincidence of interests? Following the money indicates that a huge amount of Labour funding in the Blair years came through pro-Israeli business sources. Some of those remaining today have gone public with their intention to withdraw funding – ostensibly on the completely spurious grounds of antisemitism in the party, but, again following the money, a perception that lobbying a Corbyn-led government with some principles would become harder.

    Nasty thought here –

    https://twitter.com/eyespymp/status/746833529754030080

    • nevermind

      Hurray, the FoI want to stop under minging the Labour party’s policies, that is good news indeed Ba’al.
      Was thinking of correcting my mistake, but it fits.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      Ba’al Zevul,

      Are you sure you are allowed to write that?
      – oh nevermind.

      I don’t do twitter – but I liked the nun gif

  • Paul

    Shameful post-Brexit coverage by the BBC, I note. Just sent a strongly word complaint in. Basically 90% coverage of the manufactured Labour Party coup and that’s about it. I’ve seen the same clips and interviews four or five times now.

    Like we haven’t got more important things to worry about. Appalled.

    • michael norton

      China warns Brexit will ‘cast shadow’ over global economy
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36632934

      Hang on
      The United Kingdom should not have allowed their voters to demonstrate how a democracy operates
      because undemocratic China might feel a diminution of its economy.

      Have I got that right?

      • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

        No, you haven’t, as usual, as your dismal performance on the al-Hilli threads demonstrates.

        China is afraid of suffering the same likely demise if it allows its loony subjects, infiltrated by spies like Neil Heywood and the Garretts, do their treachery.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      I used to be The BBC’s most fervent supporter.

      I now prefer the clowns in Washington and Tel Aviv – at least they are sometimes funny.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford aka The Biscuit

    I hope you are tight, but I suspect you aren’t.

    Corbyn will still be Labour leader in two weeks time despite The Guardian’s efforts to replace him, Chilcot will be much more protective of Blair than you expect, and MPs in the Commons will be thinking at best about Nikita’s self-serving denunciations of Stalin’s crimes, more likely The Donald’s supporting Brexit while investing his money in Scotland!

    Don’t forget to bring it up if you ever have dinner with him.

  • Ben Monad

    How appropriate the vote was on Solstice. The longest day of the year so far for the assholes.

    “Speaking in Prime Minister’s Questions, David Amess MP recalled asking Mr Cameron four years ago about the prospect of his mother, now 100-years-old, ever seeing an EU referendum in her lifetime.

    “She now wishes to know if she needs to set a world record for longevity before the Chilcot Report is published,” he asked.

    Mr Cameron replied: “I’m sure the Chilcot report will then come soon after that.”

    Don’t expect much from highly sanitized reports. Hmmm Warren Commission on steroids.

    • Tony_0pmoc

      The Solstice this year was actually on 20th June…but you would be hard pressed to beat this..

      I am sure I am in this video somewhere

      and the police were dead nice

      we even went swimming naked in the river in the local village – they didn’t mind

      some people have never lived

      “Hawkwind – Pt01/06 – The Solstice at Stonehenge 1984”

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSdlzLE-gIk

      Ten times better Than Glastonbury – and it was Free.

      Then Margaret Thatcher said – you can’t do that and in 1985 – The Police were not very nice at all…though they didn’t actually kill anyone.

      Tony

      • Tony_0pmoc

        Incidentally, as bizarre as it may seem, we were camping at a campsite in Kent – about this time last year – and there was hardly anyone there – about 6 people maybe…and we got talking to this couple – they were really posh and didn’t look the type…We were just camping in the countryside – it wasn’t a festival or anything music related…and I happened to mention Stonehenge..

        This girl – still very pretty said to us..well actually I was one of the vestal virgins on stage…

        I asked well – how did that happen??

        Well they were just asking for volunteers – and I volunteered…

        Did you practice…well obviously a bit – we had to appear as vestal virgins…but only like something once..when we were getting dressed.

        We improvised the rest.

        She wasn’t lying – Never met these people before in my life – but obviously seen her before..

        How weird is that?

        Tony

  • N_

    Two quick points.

    1) Scottish nationalists, here’s a question for you: why is it worth Scotland withdrawing from a single market where it does 65% of its trade (Britain) in order to stay in one where it does 10% (the EU)?

    The leaders of the SNP are utterly cynical, opportunistic, liars. No, there shouldn’t be a convention of all Scottish MPs, MSPs and MEPs, which would give you a majority that you do NOT have in the Scottish parliament. You a bunch of pork-barrel grant grabbers who don’t give a toss what happens to Scotland. You are UKIP in kilts.

    Many parts of Scotland were plastered with far more Leave banners than Remain ones. And yet Remain got a large majority in Scotland. Why? Because at grassroots level many of the Leave banners were being put up by people outside the SNP who had got caught up in the Yes campaign for reasons of “two fingers up to foreigners and how beautiful tomorrow’s dawn will be”, and who applied the same kind of thinking in the EU referendum. On the other side, many who voted Remain didn’t do it because the SNP told them to – they did it for sensible reasons, because they don’t agree with the idea of walking out of unions that benefit both Scotland and Britain.

    2) My goodness, are there still some people who use the term “Blairite”? What are the characteristics of anything that happens nowadays that call for the use of that term? I mean over and above the simple staying out of prison cells in the Hague.

        • michael norton

          61,456 that’s the total amount of people who claim to be a member of the Liberl-Democrats

          they only have one M.E.P. left

          U.K.I.P. 22 M.E.P.’s

          The Referendum on do you agree with Nick Clegg was lost, almost nobody agreed with the twat.
          The recent Referendum went for BREXIT

          so on what planet are the LibDem’s relevant?

          • Loony

            The Lib Dems are highly relevant.

            Latest estimates are that in the first day post Brexit the worlds richest 400 people lost an aggregate $127 billion.

            Someone has to speak up for minority groups, so why not a minority political party.

          • N_

            “Ugh, you’re irrelevant” when you disagree with what someone is saying is such a nasty putdown. I don’t like the LibDems either, and it’s obvious they only support AV because it’s in their interests, but Britain should be in the EU and it’s good to see a party, even one with only a few MPs, support re-entry if Britain leaves.

          • Loony

            N – Nasty put down? Maybe.

            But it does not compare to your sneering contempt for the majority population. “but Britain should be in the EU” No it should not. There was a vote not 3 days ago and will of the people was that it should not be part of the EU.

            If you want to be in the EU buy a map and move there.

          • N_

            @Loony

            But it does not compare to your sneering contempt for the majority population. “but Britain should be in the EU” No it should not. There was a vote not 3 days ago and will of the people was that it should not be part of the EU.

            If you want to be in the EU buy a map and move there.

            The majority is not always right. And I am entitled to express my opinion which is against the opinion of the majority.

            A ComRes poll found that 14% of those who voted Leave want a second referendum. I’m not surprised, when shortly after the polling stations closed (or the result came in – I can’t remember which), Nigel Farage admitted that the promise to redirect £350million each day from the EU to the NHS was a dirty fucking lie.

            Remember this: the referendum is advisory only, and a government needs the confidence of the House of Commons.

          • N_

            @Loony

            Why do you tell me to buy a map? Assume my knowledge of geography is no worse than yours. That’s only polite.

      • Republicofscotland

        All the LibDems are good for is telling lies about Nicola Sturgeon, and poncing money from the Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust.

        No wonder UK voters ingnored them at the GE, Farron and Rennie are irrelevant.

    • Republicofscotland

      “1) Scottish nationalists, here’s a question for you: why is it worth Scotland withdrawing from a single market where it does 65% of its trade (Britain) in order to stay in one where it does 10% (the EU)?”

      ______________

      N_

      Cross border trade will continue no matter whether Scotland becomes independent and remains in the EU.

      Businesses on both sides of the border will still trade briskly, because it suits them financially to do so.

      As for this horse shit.

      “The leaders of the SNP are utterly cynical, opportunistic, liars. No, there shouldn’t be a convention of all Scottish MPs, MSPs and MEPs, which would give you a majority that you do NOT have in the Scottish parliament. You a bunch of pork-barrel grant grabbers who don’t give a toss what happens to Scotland. You are UKIP in kilts.”

      It doesn’t even merit a reply.

        • michael norton

          Amazing that there are rich people being divested of their gold
          I hope four of them are David Cameron, George Osborne, Tony Blair and Neil Kinnock.

      • Loony

        Republic – Things have changed.

        What are the exact mechanics for achieving independence? Will Scotland become independent before or after the UK withdraws from the EU? Will Scotland need to withdraw from the EU and then rejoin? or will Scotland be exempt from the UK withdraw?

        Unless you know the answers to these questions then you cannot know whether Scotland will be required to adopt the Euro. Unless you know whether Scotland will adopt the Euro you cannot make any sensible predictions regarding likely economic divergence as between England and Scotland.

        Will England follow different policies outside of the EU than inside? Who is Scotland going to export its renewable electricity surplus to if England will not buy it. If England is the only possible buyer what kind of price do you think may be on offer.

        England has problems of its own – maybe Hinckley Point will not go ahead, so maybe England will not be in a position to export power to Scotland at times of low renewable production. What kind of Scottish forward planning thought demolishing Longannet was a good idea? What kind if country deliberately makes itself unable to supply its people with power?

        Are you sure you have thought all this through? I do hope that some opportunistic politician is not about to try and sell the Scottish people a fantasy.

        • N_

          All new EU member states must adopt the euro. An independent Scotland would be a successor state, not a continuator state, and it would be required to adopt the euro. If you don’t accept a club’s rules, you can’t join it. Oh dear, the SNP’s disgusting attempts to capitalise on the problems Britain is experiencing because of an unfortunately large number of Farage-loving rabid right-wing arseholes in England and Wales are going straight down the toilet. If the nutters keep hold of the asylum and force Britain out of the EU, and if Scotland goes independent and joins the EU, Britain will not be in the single market and Scotland will. There will be customs posts at the border and if you want to drive down and see your relations in England you will have to change money. Why oh why do so many Scots who want “independence” act like fucking spoilt brats who don’t want their parents telling them want to do, with zero understanding of what the big boys’ word “independence” actually means? No it doesn’t mean you’ll get “Scotland” written on your passport when it “comes up for renewal”.

          • Tony M

            Britnat fuckwittery N_: having tried blaming Jeremy Corbyn for the result, and not the Tories of Red (Labour) or Blue (Tory) hues, and ended with egg and worse on their face, it’s now blame the SNP and the people of Scotland. You’re a nastier piece of work than I thought.

          • Republicofscotland

            “All new EU member states must adopt the euro. An independent Scotland would be a successor state, not a continuator state, and it would be required to adopt the euro. ”

            _____

            N_

            The 27 remaining member states representatives haven’t gathered yet to discuss Brexit and Scotland’s position, yet somehow you know exactly what’s going to happen during this unprecedented series of events, remarkable.

            Are there any other wordly events, that you know the outcome of , please enlighten us all.

          • Neil Anderson

            “No it doesn’t mean you’ll get “Scotland” written on your passport when it “comes up for renewal”. Ah, yes it does. You’re so bitter!

        • Republicofscotland

          Looney.

          Asks : “What are the exact mechanics for achieving independence? ”

          Erm… same as last time hold a referendum, the exact date is yet unknown, but I’m confident a concensus can be agreed.

          Looney asks: ” Will Scotland need to withdraw from the EU and then rejoin? or will Scotland be exempt from the UK withdraw?”

          Nicola Strugeon is in the process of probing the EU to see if Scotland could somehow remain in the event of a second indy ref, or at least be considered, it far to early to say yet.

          Looney asks: “Unless you know the answers to these questions then you cannot know whether Scotland will be required to adopt the Euro.”

          Even if Scotland had to adopt the Euro, which according to this can take years. England and Scotland would still trade briskly, afterall Irelands second trading nation is the UK, behind the USA.

          http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/adoption/index_en.htm

          Looney asks: “Will England follow different policies outside of the EU than inside? Who is Scotland going to export its renewable electricity surplus to if England will not buy it. If England is the only possible buyer what kind of price do you think may be on offer.”

          England already buys in Electricity from France and the Netherlands, according to this. At the same time England also exports electricity to the EU.

          I foresee both Egland and Scotland exporting and buying in if need be, who wants sit in the dark?

          http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/21b00610-89d1-11e3-abc4-00144feab7de.html

      • N_

        @Republicofscotland

        Who said trade wouldn’t continue? Try to focus on the difference between trading in a single market and trading across international tariff barriers. If Britain withdraws from the EU and Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU, then there will be tariffs and restrictions on trade between Scotland and England. For obvious reasons, an rUK outside of the EU will not be in the EU single market. (Maybe I should explain what those obvious reasons are: because the single market is based on “four freedoms” and one of those is freedom of movement.) There will literally be customs posts on the Scottish border. You can’t have your cake and eat it.

        As for what you say doesn’t merit a reply, it’s common knowledge to everyone outside of the SNP.

        • Tony M

          The people of Scotland have voted over-whelmingly to remain in the EU and work on its faults (as have the people of Northern Ireland).
          Wales’ longer and tight integration with England does not diminish the fact, that greater if not full autonomy, liberty and input to in policies affecting them especially, are theirs through the EU. The EU, a player at least in this has been a (rightly) a bystander in the decision process. If you N_ are a Remainer and not just a knee-jerk right-winger, what are you unhappy about?

        • Republicofscotland

          As I’ve already stated, but I’ll repeat it for the hard of hearing so to speak, the UK is Ireland’s second biggest trading partner behind the USA, and the last I checked the Republic of Ireland still issued the Euro.

          Yes there wil be tariffs, but if Scotland has to adopt the Euro eventually those barriers will be overcome.

        • Neil Anderson

          “Who said trade wouldn’t continue? Try to focus on the difference between trading in a single market and trading across international tariff barriers. If Britain withdraws from the EU and Scotland becomes independent and joins the EU, then there will be tariffs and restrictions on trade between Scotland and England. For obvious reasons, an rUK outside of the EU will not be in the EU single market. (Maybe I should explain what those obvious reasons are: because the single market is based on “four freedoms” and one of those is freedom of movement.) There will literally be customs posts on the Scottish border. You can’t have your cake and eat it.”

          When we’re (that’s Scotland, in case you hadn’t made the connection) free from such unsavoury creatures as inhabit the murky corridors of Westminster (and unfortunates like yourself), we’ll be in a financial position to build better bridges and tunnels and pipelines and cable lines to the continent. We can then export to our (that’s Scotland’s, by the way) hearts content. And to the proper enhancement of our people.

          I’ve never been comfortable – or convinced – by the old “cake and eat it” assertion. Why would anyone in their right mind have a cake and NOT eat it? Enjoy your splendid isolation N_.

    • Neil Anderson

      Your first point wasn’t that quick at all. However, your anti-Scottish venom was given enough words to vent itself. Well done! Here’s my answer to that rather vitriolic “quick point”: nothing lasts forever. We may be trading to 65% (a rather arbitrary figure, I must say) with “Britain” (whatever that means) and 10% (again, rather arbitrary) with the EU at this present moment but that can easily be reversed. Don’t be too upset when it happens, there’s a good chap (as I’m sure you’d put it). Or good chapette, not sure of what sex you might be since you only give us one letter to go by N_. How enigmatic!

  • nevermind

    ‘Without us’

    Headline today in der Spiegel speaks of Sturgeons sounding out of options to delay, or even explode the referendum result by asking her representatives not to cooperate with legislation that needs the SNP/Scottish support.

    Der Spiegel claims that Cameron, by staying on without a plan, has effectively stifled investment and certainty, not just delayed a decision on article 50.

    However much split the Conservative Party is, Ruth Davidson would make a great Independent MP, its time for their MP’s to forward a motion of no confidence in David Cameron due to his procrastination re the 29 seats his party central cheated in, so he stops stifling the economy, when Ireland is about to make a sensible move to reunite all Ireland and become a more powerful neighbour for it.

    Time to hand over the rudder, we’re going round in circles.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/brexit-schottland-will-in-der-eu-bleiben-a-1099871.html

  • SmilingThrough

    You’re spot on about Chilcot, Craig. The plotters have to act now because they know that after July 6 Blair and the rump of his New Labour followers in the PLP are toast.

    They have blood on their hands from all that flowed from following Bush into Iraq and some responsibility for the floods of refugees from the Middle East who can’t paddle their way to the United States — the prime cause of their distress.

    What is little remarked since Thursday is the large-scale failure of the Corbyn plotters to persuade their own constituents of the virtue of Remain.

    Check out the areas into which New Labour parachuted its favoured praetorian guards over many years and see how they voted on Thursday. Overwhelmingly the majorities were to Leave and that included the former constituencies of Super Remainers Mandelson and Blair.

    These neophytes have little organic connection with the poorer areas of the country they nominally represent yet claim to have better knowledge of Labour voters than the many Labour party members who voted for Corbyn less than a year ago.

    The referendum showed these PLP claims as bogus as New Labour’s hocus-pocus focus groups which somehow missed/ignored well-established public resentment of much about the EU going back long before UKIP’s success.

    Yet these very same people — Benn, Johnson, Flint, Hunt, Junior Kinnock, Bryant, Bradshaw, Cooper, Jarvis et al — are now accusing Corbyn of “failing” when he was one of the few Labour MP to have a large Remain majority egged on by former SDP breakaway types like Polly Toynbee.

    • michael norton

      How did Aberavon vote in the recent Referendum
      that is the constituency, the incumbent is the spawn of Kinnock

      • N_

        “56.8% of people in Neath Port Talbot voted to leave the EU. Country-wide, the Brexit vote ranks 150 out of 382 areas.”

  • m boyd

    Craig,

    I see your old pal Laura Konigsberg has done another hatchet job on Corbin, its all his fault again.

  • Nika

    You know, I feel such despair ….Labour is in a position to provide a really strong alternative to our present government and also utilise the
    considerable number of voters in the referendum who now regret their decision. The last leadership election showed to me how utterly vacuous Jeremy Corbyn’s competitors were ( and still are). Meanwhile, our Prime Minister has just made one of the greatest political blunders ever…..I think that it is David Cameron who has showed lack of leadership. If he really believed in our EU membership, why did he feel the need to have a referendum ? This affects us all ….immediately. The years spent evolving the EU have been discarded in an instant. Now those years of evolution have to be altered in a short space of time, with limited planning and limited debate. Yet there is not one word of comment about David Cameron’s horrendous blunder as our Prime Minister. And we now have the prospect of a potentially far-right government and a potentially self -obsessed opposition, sans Corbyn. On the other hand, I hear some politicians are enthusiastic about the “new opportunities” that EU withdrawal will bring. This could also be used by the Labour party if Jeremy Corbyn remains as leader ( or a non-Blairite and non-authoritarian replaces him). Public transport could be brought under state control, or conversely could be placed under local control ( although this might not be so effective outside the city conurbations). What about environmental or farming policies? What about the regions such as West Wales and Cornwall ? Will they still receive funding comparable with Objective One? Anyway, I hope the Chilcott report will divert my mind from all these questions for a while and relieve some despair , but I think not !

    • MJ

      “Public transport could be brought under state control”

      Indeed. It would not be permissible under EU law.

      “What about environmental or farming policies? What about the regions such as West Wales and Cornwall?”

      All matters for a UK parliament elected by us. Democracy is good for you, don’t be scared of it.

      • Nika

        Mj, my point is that the lack of planning for this situation is a betrayal of democracy. The democratic vote has been made and now what ? The PLP act with intent to remove their democratically elected leader and the democratically elected government’s leader walks the plank.

      • nevermind

        yes democracy woul;d be a fine thing, stop pulling the wool over our eyes, these delaying tactics have nothing to do with democracy.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Is that it finished now? Are we done? Seven non-entities no-one even knew had their jobs in the first place, and one betrayer of one of his father’s closest political allies?

    Shouldn’t think Corbyn will lose much sleep over that lot.

    • Nika

      John, thank you for your words…….just feel so frustrated having spent an afternoon trying to explain to a few mates how Labour is actually well positioned to take on our present government. I find it really hard to understand the enmity felt towards Jeremy Corbyn and his leadership of the Labour party.

    • Zarina Bhatia

      Yours is one of the rare comments with sense.
      I agree with your sensible comments, keep making them.

    • N_

      Oh is Pilger taking Putin’s money now? Farage has done for some time. The French National Front got a big loan from Russia too.

      • Richard

        Farage has taken Putin’s money? Why hasn’t somebody said? After all, if somebody falls off his bike in Abergavenny they reckon it’s Putin’s fault and given all the stuff they chuck at Farage, explicit and implicit, you would think that the unbiased and totally honest B.B.C. wouldn’t deliver the weather forecast without mentioning it.

  • Habbabkuk (think positively)

    Given the” changed circumstances” brought about by the victory of the Brexit side, given the fact that there was a substantial majority in Scotland against Brexit and assuming that Brexit will actually happen, can any honest and fair-minded commenter deny that a SNP demand for a second Scottish independence referendum is not entirely justified?

    I would go further: given the outcome of the Brexit referendum in Northern Ireland, an actual Brexit would seem to be an excellent time for there to be a referendum in Northern Ireland on reunification of the two parts or Ireland. The form this should take should be two separate referendums, one in Northern Ireland and one in the Republic of Ireland and that the outcome of both should be a “yes”. The one in Northern Ireland should, given the Unionist/Nationalist divide, require that at least “x”% of the eligible electorate should vote “yes” (the “x” being a figure a little over 50 in order to show that reunification also had the support of a significant number of Unionists).

      • lysias

        Looks like the plutocrats want to make sure England suffers punishment, so that other countries do not follow its example.

        Or else to increase the chances that Brexit does not actually happen.

        Of course, those two motivations are not mutually exclusive.

    • N_

      What’s the argument for a second independence referendum in Scotland? There was a large majority in Scotland for Britain remaining in the EU, and a small majority for the opposite in England and Wales. So what? If you want Scotland to be independent, you shouldn’t vote in British referendums on what Britain should or shouldn’t do in its foreign relations. The British referendum was not a vote on anything whatsoever to do with Scottish independence. I live in Scotland, I voted Remain, and I am opposed to Scottish independence. It wasn’t a vote on “what’s best for Scotland” either. Another independence referendum in Scotland should not be held unless parties supporting independence get a majority of both votes and seats in two or three Scottish general elections following the country’s vote to remain part of Britain in 2014. No other vote indicates anything more than fuck-all about support for independence.

      As for Ireland, how can someone be a “Unionist” and yet support a united Ireland? The strange thing is that citizens of the Republic of Ireland can come and live and work in Britain whenever they want, while those born in Northern Ireland are eligible for citizenship of the Republic in the same way as those born south of the Irish border. So as far as Irish people are concerned, at least one of the “freedoms” of the single market will continue even if the nutters take Britain out of the EU and the RoI stays in. Can you imagine? RoI and therefore EU passports on offer to some British people (those who happen to be from Northern Ireland) but not to the rest of us?

      • N_

        In fact the SNP are trying to exploit all Scottish people who voted in the EU referendum, both those who voted Remain (wrongly all assumed to be in favour of independence if Britain leaves the EU) and those who voted Leave (votes gratefully accepted by the SNP, so long as the total proportion stayed quite small, because Leave votes in Scotland helped Leave win in the whole of Britain).

  • Corneilius

    Iraq, Libya, Syria. British State War Crimes.

    Fact. We have the evidence, we know who participated in the commission of these crimes, we know where they live.

    No Government since 2003 has legitimacy until the war criminals are ALL arrested and sent to the Hague.

    Every piece of legislation created since then by the UK Parliament is illegitimate.

    The EU ref was illegitimate, and the media campaign that put ‘immigrants’ at the heart of the ‘debate’ was illegitimate.

    Keep Calm and Arrest All The War Criminals.

    The ‘Brexit’ claim of ‘self determination’ is empty unless this is done, now.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      All those crimes, and those contemplated for Iran, were committed at the behest of the Israeli regime, transmitted through the Israel First Lobbies that now dominate Western polities to an unprecedented extent. A break-up of the EU, the bulwark of US power in Europe, is definitely viewed with outright hostility in Tel Aviv. If the Blairite Israel Firsters do not succeed in ousting Corbyn, and preparing the way for attacks on Syria and/or Iran, I fear for his safety, particularly after the sacrifice of Jo Cox.

  • Jimbo

    Yep could be they’re using the opportunity afforded by Brexit to go for a coup.

    Could also be fear that the Tories will call a general election before Brexit negotiations begin and many of them are feart they’ll lose their seat on the gravy train.

  • j

    Corbyn has conducted himself with grace and maturity compared to the impetuous children of Blair with which he has to contend. He’s displayed considerable forbearance and latitude when others would have routed them, instead he’s allowed them plenty of rope and true to their instincts they’ve hung themselves with it. To me It appears as though Hilary has shot his bolt, was he really the war prime minister the Americans were expecting? The way things are shaping up, it looked more like the overture to a much longer term game with regard to the further spasms of the war economy of America. And where that will lead over the next two to three years.

    The establishment media have all but admitted they don’t expect the Tories to be viable within that frame of reference, but who is at the head of the Labour party seems vital for selling whatever is planned, at least for how the English speaking word are to be programmed to perceive it.

    Hopefully paranoid ramblings.

    Then again, despite the slow and grinding build up to some kind of reverse of the referendum, that remains the spanner in the works.

  • Republicofscotland

    What I found extremely arrogant from the Brexit camps campaign, was the lack of clarity, as to which direction Britain would take on the event of a Brexit win.

    Contrast that with the utter scrutinisation of the Scottish referendum Yes camps white paper that layed out in detail how a independent Scotland would move forward.

    However I look forward to the Tory Brexiteers new policies coming under focused scrutiny similar to that of the white paper.

  • unspeakable

    “The answer is the Chilcot Report.”

    I think it’s more than that (although I don’t doubt that’s part of it, at least as far as timing is concerned). It is also that the finance sector has lost the support and protection of the EU. So this is a move to consolidate political power in the UK. The Tories will serve the finance sector, but a Corbyn-led Labour will not. So the City is trying to recapture the Labour party in order to ensure that in a post-EU world, the neoliberal world order retains control.

  • D-Majestic

    Exactly the case, Craig. It looks very much like a move to ensure the best possible chance for the Chilcot Report to be spun by the compliant (Bought out?) media. And subsequently kicked far into the long grass by the neocon sleepers. Incidentally-watching the QT Brexit effort right now, the Londoncentric Metro-Elite still don’t get it, do they?

  • Republicofscotland

    Labour’s Karl Turner has either resigned or been sacked, he was the Shadow Attorney General for Labour, that brings the number up to eleven.

    Labour have gone into meltdown.

    • Republicofscotland

      Giles Fraser Guardian writer, agrees with Craigs article that the Blairites are making their move to depose Corbyn, before the release of the Chilcot Report.

      Surprisingly Mr Fraser came out with it on the BBC’s EU Question Time special, five minutes ago.

      The vast majority of the audience applauded his remarks.

  • Zarina Bhatia

    I have read many of your messages before and you are a genius. Commentators against Jeremy Corbyn are cock-eyed morons. Hilary Benn is a complete disgrace and chose to strike Jeremy in small hours when he too is a war criminal to have supported military action on Syria as if the blood they have shed is not enough. There are many vampires like him within the Labour Party and in UK as such.

    • Mulga Mumblebrain

      Zarina, in my opinion Benn disgraced his father, but plainly served the interests of his masters in the Israel First Lobby who have planned the destruction of Syria and its break-up into fragments for decades.

  • Robert

    Suspect the serious lobbying and bribing of the arms manufacturers are driving all this – problem with Corbyh is that they cant buy him – so they are getting rid of him.

  • John Spencer-Davis

    Apparently legal advice given to the Labour Party is that Corbyn would not need any nominations from MPs in order to be eligible to stand in any fresh leadership contest.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-legal-advice-automatically-on-ballot-leadership-challenge_uk_577003cfe4b0d2571149d42a?er6kvw5lz9ft6b6gvi

    If true, and Corbyn doesn’t choose to leave, then that’s that for these jokers, because they will have utterly enraged the party membership with their shenanigans, and Corbyn will comfortably win if the rank and file party members are actually to be permitted to vote for him.

  • Tom Mason

    The exact sort of rubbish that one would expect from a raving conspiracy theorist embittered by his rejection by the SNP

    • John Spencer-Davis

      “The Blairite plan is therefore for the parliamentary party to depose him as parliamentary leader and get speaker John Bercow to acknowledge someone else in that fictional position in time for the Chilcot debate, with Corbyn remaining leader in the country but with no parliamentary status.”

      That’s what the embittered conspiracy theorist Craig Murray says. Now take a look at this tweet from the reporter Allegra Stratton of ITV:

      https://twitter.com/ITVAllegra/status/746984191628304384?lang=en-gb

      ‘if he doesn’t resign and let Tom Watson take over, one Labour front bencher just told me “PLP will have to have our own leader”‘

      So if Stratton is reporting correctly. Murray has got at least a part of it right, hasn’t he? Unless you think she is an embittered conspiracy theorist too.

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