Not all Americans are Barking Nutters 640


That should not need to be said, but given the antics of Clinton and Trump it is as well to say it anyway to remind ourselves. Here is Green Party candidate Jill Stein explaining that you do not have to vote for either a “proto-fascist or a warmonger”.

The journalists of course attempt to say that to vote for Stein is to let Trump in. Stein sticks strongly to the argument that the “Queen of Corruption” and “Warmonger” Clinton is not in fact a real choice from Trump. This is of course absolutely true, Clinton is a dangerous extremist – she just happens to support the extremism of the right wing establishment and its poodle media.

I have been fascinated by the apoplexy generated in the pretend left by the notion that people ought not to vote for Clinton. The go-to argument is that not to vote for her is in itself an act of misogyny. I wonder if they will argue the same for Marine Le Pen. The second argument is that a corrupt warmonger is better than the racist bigot Trump. The interesting thing is, close examination reveals an almost 100% correlation between those apoplectic at any lack of support for Clinton, and those who supported Tony Blair. The idea that being an ultra-corrupt warmonger is not a big problem is obviously a fixed principle with these people.


640 thoughts on “Not all Americans are Barking Nutters

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  • Sharp Ears

    P Charles and Croc wife have set off on a week long long tour of Middle East countries. Palestine is not included but our best customer for weapons is on the itinerary. He has already performed the ludicrous sword dance in Oman and not in Saudi Arabia this time. Bahrain, another outpost of human rights like Saudi Arabia, is also on the itinerary.

    Prince Charles tries sword dancing on Royal tour of the Middle East
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/05/prince-charles-tries-sword-dancing-on-royal-tour-of-the-middle-e/

    The pair will doubtless return with more loot from the potentates.

    • Habbabkuk

      On reflection, the above was intemperate and some apology is due!

      But it remains true that posts like that add little to this blog.

    • Laguerre

      “The pair will doubtless return with more loot from the potentates.”

      I doubt it. The Gulf states are almost broke. There are big cutbacks, including in Oman, the site of the dangerous sword-waving. The decline in the oil price is on the edge of bankrupting the lot.

      • kief

        How is Saudi Arabia on the edge? What is their production cost? They started the production war because they can afford it, ffs.

    • Habbabkuk

      Anyone who knows anything at all about statecraft and diplomatic usage will know that it is customary for Heads of State or Government (or their representatives in the case of the former) to offer and receive presents when visiting their equivalents in other countries.

      Hence the lastr sentence of the above is a crude way of saying nothing new.

      As to HRH The Prince of Wales not visiting “Palestine”, this may be because the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland does not at present consider “Palestine” ro be a sovereign state (in the same way – although for different reasons – as some Arab states do not recognise the existence of the State of Israel).

      Hope that helps!

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Now Obama has told a crowd he was addressing for Hillary’s candidacy to sit down and shut up after an elderly man, apparently a veteran, repeatedly interrupted him.

    Has the man no curtesy for the POTUS who the crowd was trying to defend?

    Obama is just too interested in himself these days, and should be less vocal in future, avoiding comments like Comey is a “man of integrity” when he is trying to hijack the election for Trump.

    Defending so-called veterans today has become too much of an avocation by aspiring politicians. There are tens of millions of us now.

    • kief

      Bernie has completely surrendered to the Democratic machine. He’s making spots to defend Sacramento dems from their plight. He wants us to vote YES on prop 61 to save their cherry asses to the detriment of VA pharmaceuticals.

  • kief

    I’ve got some reciprocal advice for those so enthusiastically certain that Trump should rule…..

    You should just LEAVE the EU and damn the torpedoes. It’s so simple, really.

    • nevermind

      seconded Steve Hayes, so how do we bring this over to their constituency memberships before they come up for re-selection?

      @Craig. Messaged Friday that your book has turned up at the book hive Norwich, I picked it up today. Distribution is working, but the publicity is lacking, despite the excellent reviews…..SCREAM……get arrested for something normal, break wind Loudly) in Mrs Sturgeons presence and blame her for it, anyhting to get the silly press interested.

  • Promise K. Fahrenheit

    It’s proven fact that Clinton is a corrupt warmonger, but isn’t it just throwing words around to call Trump racist?

      • lysias

        Hillary has a record of experience all right. It just happens to be a record as a warmonger and tool of Wall Street.

    • Duncan McFarlane

      Whether he’s a racist or not, he’s more than happy to get the support of and pander to racists and bigots. He was happy to take campaign donations and an endorsement from David Duke, a KKK member, until embarassed by the media reporting it

      He sees black people like Eric Garner murdered in cold blood by police who get off with murder completely – then condemns Black Lives Matter for campaigning to end this.

      He claims most Syrian refugees are ISIS sympathisers – which is a complete lie.

      So either he’s a racist and a bigot himself or else he’s happy to pander to those who are for votes. Either one makes him unfit to be President – and i say that as someone who dislikes and distrusts Hillary Clinton based on her record too.

  • nevermind

    For all those that still believe that US politcs is something we should talk about for days on end, here is the German version from Der Spiegel.

    “Clinton’s campaign, in any case, didn’t start as promising as had been hoped. And Abedin was with her around the clock, often visiting two cities per day.

    Anthony Weiner, who owed her quite a lot, stayed home with Jordan, their son of three-and-a-half years. In the evenings, when he got bored, Weiner would take off his T-shirt and pants and take selfies of his chest and crotch. At one point late in the summer of 2015, he took pictures of himself — half naked and clearly aroused — next to his son. He sent the photos to a woman, a Trump fan who supports the weapons lobby and hates Barack Obama. Abedin knew nothing about it.”

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/us-presidential-campaign-concludes-in-farce-a-1119830.html

  • Sharp Ears

    This is the transcript of the Assange/Pilger interview.

    5 Nov 2016
    Whistleblower Julian Assange has given one of his most incendiary interviews ever in a John Pilger Special, courtesy of Dartmouth Films, in which he summarizes what can be gleaned from the tens of thousands of Clinton emails released by WikiLeaks this year.
    http://on.rt.com/7ty5

    • nevermind

      thanks for the link sharp ears, very revealing on Clinton and JA’s personal situation as well.
      So JA believes that Trump might win the arguments even the election, but not the count.
      “The people who cast the votes don’t decide an election, the people who count the votes do.” – Joseph Stalin

      With machines being ‘adjusted’ to count fractions rather than individual votes, we are witnessing another great con, sold as an improvement of the democratic process, machines that can be manipulated, switched off, interrupted from outside and most likely/ probably blamed on the Russians, a disaster for any state that claims to be democratic.

      And the voters perform,
      because its the norm,
      the decent thing to do,
      vote for a steaming pile of poo.

  • Dave

    Following UK crushing defeat in WWII we soon emerged more prosperous than ever because ironically the lose of empire led to a renaissance at home because in truth empire was a euphemism for foreign aid that would be better spent at home.

    And the same applies to USA if Trump wins and is serious about America First, because ending the foreign wars and genocide and bribes to win allies complicit in war crimes on behalf of the Israel/arms industry will mean more money to spend at home.

    And a more prosperous America can rule the world through value for money soft power rather than making enemies everywhere with an Israel/Millwall complex.

    • lysias

      John Bright famously called the British Empire “a gigantic system of out-door relief for the aristocracy of Great Britain.” Later the benefits were extended also to the upper middle class and parts of the middle class tout court. The American Empire has also principally benefited the elites.

      So ending imperialism can easily benefit the mother country as a whole while only hurting the limited numbers of people who benefit from the imperialism.

    • Duncan McFarlane

      The Empire was “foreign aid”? You must be joking. It was complete exploitation of people in the colonies used as practically slave labour – tiny wages, no safety at work – and shot if they rebelled or demanded independence.

  • Ron Showalter

    TheSaker, MoA, this blog, will the list of the foreign-born bloggers who have fallen prey to the DECADES OLD Clinton Derangement Syndrome never end?

    Will we all be reduced to watching once “great” minds reblogging/retweeting the exact same warmed-over sh!te that us here in the US have have been subjected to for DECADES?

    Gee, an more intelligent approach to this whole phenomenon might be to examine how over the last 25+ YEARS the anti-Clinton hysteria has served TPTB well by keeping everyone focused on what amounts to a load of nothing, furthering political gridlock while TPTB’s agenda rolls onward, etc. but instead we get the “brightest” of international commentators now all singing from the same freaking Drudge Report/Limbaugh playbook circa 1994.

    And you dare to question the intelligence of Americans?! At least the intelligent ones here aren’t still wearing the intellectual/political equivalents of flannel shirts and listening to Oasis. Embarrassing.

    If the world’s population is being subjected to the machinations/propaganda of the Empire, then at the very least I wish foreign commentators would have the decency to give some respect to those of us who live here and who again – DECADES AGO – saw Clinton Derangement Syndrome for what it was – the results of a propagandistic weapon aimed at the people to further divide and alienate the subjects – and not serious journalism/discourse.

    Wake up.

    • kief

      Thanks for introducing some context for the Horde. But they don’t respond to tones of reality, being tone-deaf.

  • Rose

    “The interesting thing is, close examination reveals an almost 100% correlation between those apoplectic at any lack of support for Clinton, and those who supported Tony Blair. ”

    That’s insightful, and kind of therapeutic at the moment to me, given most folks I know on social media seem to feel that to be in the Clinton camp corresponds to sanity! It’s a sort of willful blindness.

  • Silvio

    How much does the US election circus really matter if a “deep state” is actually calling the shots to suit its own purposes regardless of the wishes of elected politicians? In the 1hr 30min video below former Canadian diplomat, author, and retired Professor of English Peter Dale Scott discusses his book The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy.

    https://youtu.be/-QH9yOzhkio?list=PLr4yKXmczMIULRWAgp2mqWQqefwBPOnaw

    • Habbabkuk

      A good question, which in turns raises a further good question, namely: if Mr Scott’s premise is correct, why are so many people devoting so much blogging and chattering time (including on here) to this Presidential election?

      • nevermind

        Maybe you should read before commenting and ask yourself why a diplomat of experience and brevity knows much more than yourself, rather than question his resolve.
        come to think of it why don’t you talk to him yourself, or are you too lazy, or what?

        • Anon1

          It’s a good question. If you believe that both Clinton and Trump are controlled by a shadowy elite of puppet masters (Node’s “the powers that be”*), that in reality the US is controlled by a “deep state”, why are you bothered by the outcome of the election?

          *To be fair, Node actually believes that Trump was planted by “TPB” to fail and allow a Clinton win, but he “went rogue”. 🙂

    • kief

      See? this is the trope that flys in the face of logic and reason.

      Why would the deep State want Trump the unknown calculus, versus the devil they know, Hillary?

      Don’t bother to reply as I ask myself ‘why ask why?’

    • lysias

      The deep state is not all-powerful. Sometimes the U.S. president does things they don’t like but are unable to prevent. That’s why they had JFK assassinated. That’s why they engineered Nixon’s removal from office. That’s why they mounted the October Surprise that ensured Jimmy Carter’s defeat in 1980. That’s why they manipulated Ross Perot’s run for the presidency in 1992, forcing him to withdraw when it looked as if he might win and then getting him to reenter the race in such a way as to ensure Bill Clinton’s victory.

      No doubt the deep state would prefer that their favored candidate wins this time, so that they don’t have to use one of these methods to end a Trump presidency.

      • Habbabkuk

        I have remarked in the past that jokers and other perhaps more sinister fakers always end up over-reaching themselves – and thereby give themselves away.

        The above litany of how the “deep state” apparently manipulated numerous US Presidential elections is a good example of that phenomenon.

        I pronounce anathema on the author.

  • Anon1

    Channel 4 News tonight pushing the idea that Hillary is losing ground to Trump because of a “Deep-rooted misogyny in the US”.

    Desperate stuff indeed, and a sign that the liberal media are not only contemplating defeat and formulating their excuses early, but that they really don’t understand why they are being rejected in the first place (cf ‘racist Brexit’).

  • Anon1

    @Habbabkuk

    I see that nobody has attempted* to answer your questions about Assange.

    Clearly the Swedish prosecutors have called Assange’s bluff and he’s all out of cards.

    *Bevin tried a little personal attack on you, which served only to reinforce his inability to answer the questions.

        • Habbabkuk

          Clark

          Thank you for your link, which I have of course read carefully.

          But I’m rather puzzled. The statement by the Ecuadorian Embassy refers to an official of the Ecuadorian judicial system receiving a “statement” from Mr Assange. To be fair, there is an inference that this “statement” will be based on questions from the Swedish authorities. This is the event which has been postponed at the request (we now learn) of Mr Assange.

          I had always thought the the essential of this aspect of the affair was as follows: Mr Assange is supposed to answer questions by the Swedish authorities and that, following his unwillingness to leave the Embassy in order to answer those questions (either in Sweden or on UK sovereign territory), the Swedish authorities finally agreed that they would go to the Ecuadorian Embassy and ask him those questions there.

          Having read your link, is it now fair to say that there will still not be a face-to-face between Mr Assange and the Swedish investigators?

          If that is the case then it would be good to know whether this rather curious state of affairs arises out of Mr Assange’s wishes or out of the wishes of the govt of Ecuador.

          • Alcyone

            I believe, for the Swedes to interview Assange in Ecuadorian territory, an agreement was negotiated between the two Governments which sets out the protocol oh how Assange answers the questions. There is significant involvement of Ecuadorian officials in the process apparently. My knowledge is sketchy.

            Unrelated, Assange has asserted that the US State will not permit Trump to become President. I’d like to see the outcome and analysis ad observe it’s validity. It’ll be an interesting exercise.

            PS It wouldn’t surprise me if the Swedes are beginning to perceive that the Assange affair is not doing them any good. Besides, he has served over 4 years under de facto ‘lock and key’. He has paid a price regardless of the veracity of the accusations.

          • Habbabkuk

            Thank you for that, Alcyone old friend.

            I note that you say that your knowledge is sketchy, which is not however to say it is wrong. But it would be good if one of the more fiery Assangists on this blog would pronounce on my points and questions. Trusting in the goodness of human nature, the collegial atmosphere of this blog and the adherence of all to the truth, O look forward to reading further responses.

            Re Mr Assange’s assertion, which you recount, I must admit I accord it as little importance as I accord to Craig’s claims that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is already – or rapidly becoming – a fascist state.

            A desperate man can say desperate things.

      • Habbabkuk

        “Tag team tactics”, apart from being inaccurate, is ad personam and in violation of Craig’s injunction to play the ball and not the man. Perhaps I inadvertently touched a raw nerve?

  • Tom

    It’s all about divide and rule. Same in the UK with Brexit.
    Get people to turn on each other, and they won’t question the elites or a rotten system.
    A vote in the presidential election is a vote for the system, which is clearly rigged in a number of ways to get evil characters like the two Clintons and the two Bushes elected, with a little liberal window-dressing of the gormless Obama in the middle. Predictably the faked polls are narrowing as we near election day, just as they always do, so people think there is a real contest.
    Nothing will change until there is a serious campaign against the presidential system itself, and people stop engaging with the mainstream media.
    As I say it’s the same in the UK. The newspapers and government are deliberately stirring up tension over Brexit to try to hide their own corruption and stupidity. At the same time, foreign business and nations want a divided and weak Britain so they can profit. As in the US, rigged ‘democracy’ is being used as a stick to beat the population.

    • kief

      ” As in the US, rigged ‘democracy’ is being used as a stick to beat the population.”

      BINGO ! Give Tom a cigar…a Cuban robusto for that insight. Please come back soon. We need you in the most desperate fashion.

      Awareness and insight are as rare as plutonium.

    • giyane

      ” Foreign businesses and nations want a divided and weak Britain so they can profit ”
      To add to your Grouch Marx cigar awarded by Kief, dare one suggest that UK businesses and politicians want a divided and weak Britain so they can profit, as well?

      Habbabkuk suffered a rare moment of insightful intuition above by asking why if they believed the deep state was so powerful are so many people devoting so much blogging and chattering time (including on here) to this Presidential election?

      In a world of Hedge fund gambling and Monster wave surfing you have to ride the thing, or you’d be drowned.

  • bevin

    The latest twist in this campaign is to have Hillary campaigning in Detroit-“to get out the vote.”
    Given that Detroit is considered really safe Democrat territory I can think of three reasons why she is there rather than in a marginal state:
    1/ There is a troubling lack of enthusiasm among the Black voters that she needs to win.
    2/ It doesn’t matter much-in this age of instant communications-whether she campaigns in Detroit or Dover, what matters is the celebrities (Beyonce, LeBron, Jay Z) with whom she is when the video is shot. The images will soon be available everywhere.
    3/ Wherever she goes support for her party plummets so she is sent to a place so safe that nothing that she says or does will matter.
    I suspect that it is 1 and 2. The real measure of racism in the US is that Clinton, with her record of attacks on the poor has been able, throughout the year to rely on the votes provided by ward heelers and demagogues in the “Black Misleadership Class.” According to the triangulation theory blacks, like union members have no alternative, which is why they are treated with such contempt by the Democrats.

      • lysias

        Doesn’t sound like a racist rant to me. Sounds more like realism.

        The U.S. media, even the Washingon Post, have been reporting about Dem fears about a lower turnout among blacks. Obama has even scolded blacks who don’t vote this time.

        • kief

          I think it’s the ‘tone’ but I am loathe to disentangle you from the entourage so carry on….

        • Hieroglyph

          In the Sydney Herald, camp Clinton was quoted asking for ‘interventions’. So, if a family member was a Trumper, they advised someone ‘intervene’, as though they were alcoholics, or had anger issues.

          No Hillary, they just don’t like you. I tire of the ‘scolding’ tone of professional politicians. Anyone who supported the Iraq War simply can’t scold anyone about anything. Same goes for those who hold Terror Tuesdays. These people just bore me. They have no vision, say little interesting, and don’t appear to even be good politicians. They just play the game in ‘God Mode’: they cheat, and have no ethics. Barry can do one. He’s probably added a few votes to the Trump tally with his waffle anyway.

          • glenn_uk

            Kief: I wouldn’t hope for that. These Trump supporters here are morphing into “true believers” – even Bevin, God help us. Nothing will convince them of the error of their ways. Even if Trump were to declare martial law the first day and send nuclear missiles off in his first week, they’d still be claiming “But Clinton would have been worse!”

          • kief

            Glenn; Thank you. I don’t wish for a Trump win. But it’s difficult to shame those who seem to think they can skip through the tulips, unfazed.

          • lysias

            The warmonger in the race is Hillary. That’s proved not just by what she has said, but by what she has done.

          • kief

            I just learned that Stuxnet was approved personally by Obama. Now that Mossad worm has infected a vast majority of stand-alones worldwide. undeclared cyber-war with unknown future implications. It’s worse than nuclear proliferation unbounded, and that makes the poseur responsible, just as Dubya responsible for Iraq debacle.

            Trump would still be wurst.

    • giyane

      Bevin

      I’ve mentioned the word triangulation before when Craig has used it. I am sure you are aware that it had 2 very serious connotations before the GPS one. 1/ The slave trade triangle that used the trade winds in the Atlantic to take trinkets to Africa, take captive Black Muslims to the Caribbean, and take produce back to here. 2/ The triangulation of sexual relationships. Including jealous Penguins if you saw Bing’s magazine features today.

      Nor is the word Trinity unrelated, the system of lies whereby Christians declare that that big old, Male nasty God was out of touch and had no idea what it was really like to be a human until he sent his special envoy, who altered ( in their belief ) the Mosaic Law, had a girlfriend, and forgave and empowered ” ultra-corrupt warmongers “. They’ve been playing off their 3 gods against eachother ever since.

      Bent solicitors and 3rd world language schools choose company addresses or names which include the word Trinity , as a slogan of purity to cover their nefarious intentions.

      If what you mean by triangulation is what we call strategic voting here then that adds a further distortion to the electoral process. Triangulation is strangulation. The US shook off the shackles of UK colonialism with nor taxation without representation, but it has been re-colonised by the Zionists and there is no representation left at all.

  • kief

    “I’ve got some reciprocal advice for those so enthusiastically certain that Trump should rule…..

    You should just LEAVE the EU and damn the torpedoes. It’s so simple, really.”

    This bears repeating…

    • Old Mark

      Kief

      In your link Mr Dale does a good job in enumerating the porkies uttered at various moments in the campaign by Team Trump, but in item 8 he gets out a large container of whitewash when discussing the Clinton Foundation, which he describes thus-

      ‘He often describes the Clinton Foundation, a leader in providing life-saving medication to the poor in the developing world, as a criminal enterprise. The foundation has consistently been given good ratings from watchdog organizations.’

      In reality, the Foundation received massive infusions of cash from friendly foreign governments whilst Hillary was actually serving as Sec of State, and it failed to notify the relevant authorities of the same-

      http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/clinton-foundation-admits-receiving-1m-cheque-qatar-government-without-notifying-state-department-1590009

      • Anon1

        Not to mention the $12 million ‘donation’ received by the Clinton Foundation from the King of Morocco, entirely unconnected to the arms sales that followed to the regime notorious for its human rights abuses, of course.

        https://i.sli.mg/JaZnPl.jpg

        That’s quite some charitable foundation, Hillary!

        • giyane

          Funding neo-cons is paying the mob. Saudi Arabia is funding Hillary Clinton’s election campaign.
          Saudi Arabia has been waiting and paying and waiting and paying for a direct US intervention against Assad for 6 years. The keyboard warriors here might not know what that looks like on the ground. It means that every moderately mad Mulla for Dave in the UK and the rest of the world has a gravy train to lick for supporting US-created terror.

          So that’s not just the 25 million Muslims who have lost their security and homes, that’s all the Muslims in the world who are led by venal imams. We are compelled by the religion to put up with the stink of Imam venality, enticed by the Saudi petro-dollars, and we leave the mosque after our prayers like one leaves an abattoir. The Saudis have corrupted the whole of Islam.

          We Muslims are now treated like the Democrats treat their black population in the US. Obama supports institutional racism by the police who shoot them at point-blank range with impunity and yet the blacks have nowhere else to take their vote, until, that is Trump. I guarantee that Trump will win a compelling victory because the American people have had enough of being taken for granted and bled like pigs for the sacred cow of Israel. Nuff sad.

          • Anon1

            If Trump wins it will not be “because the American people have had enough of being taken for granted and bled like pigs for the sacred cow of Israel.”

            It will be because they are rejecting the liberal establishment and they know Hillary is filthy corrupt.

            Sorry. 🙁

      • kief

        True enough that Hillary is using every resource to ensure her office. I only cited the piece to demonstrate the imbalance necessary to support Trump. However, the Clintons know many are lying in wait like a lynch-mob for any misstep. The legalities of operating a Foundation while SoS creates a maelstrom of opportunities for both sides to push the envelope, but I think they’ve dotted their ‘I’s’.

        It’s still going to be perceived as illegal activity no matter how they stage it, and plenty willing to exploit.

        Trump would do nothing to promote legislation voiding Citizens United and that’s what it would take to stop this foreign money.

  • Anon1

    The LA Times gave the most accurate polling in both the 2008 and 2012 elections.

    LA Times poll puts Clinton on 42 and Trump on 48.

    This is not “too close to call”. Interestingly, the LA Times has had Trump ahead almost throughout. We know that the polls were much more favourable towards Brexit in the run-up to the EU referendum than the picture presented to us by the media. The same bias is operating in the US against Trump. As with Brexit, we are now seeing him gaining ground on Hillary with the voting having already begun. Now that minds have been made up (though they probably already were), the media are no longer manipulating the polls to the same extent. In reality Trump has probably been ahead for much longer.

    Expect Trump to go into the election with a narrow lead and then win big.

    • Habbabkuk

      This is the sort of information we should be getting from our American commenters, surely? Why aren’t we?

  • Macky

    I’m struck by those apparently anguished & reluctant Clinton supporters who justify their support on the premise of the “Lesser Evil Argument”. The fallacy of the Lesser Evil argument iro the US Election, is exactly the same fallacy of the Greater Good argument used to justify the recent destruction of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya; and it’s a fallacy exactly because it’s not a binary choice of two known certainties, but rather a conceit based on deadly assumptions & deluded narcissistic virtue-signalling. In both cases there is on the one hand the known status-quo/recent verifiable known track-record, versus on the other hand the unknowable, which is replaced with just assumptions, which are nothing more than wishful thinking or imagined worse case scenarios.

    Needless to say that those that take a position based on fear of the unknowable, especially when it results in certain knowable inevitable dire consequences, are accessories to enabling & encouraging evil even if they rationalise it as a so called “Lesser Evil”.

    So if you vote/gamble for the imagined/hoped for future “Lesser Evil” of somebody with the known track-record of Hilary Clinton, know that you are still partaking in a very real evil in the here & now, that will have further future evil consequences; personally if I was a US voter I would vote for Jill Stein, or at least abstain.

    • Anon1

      Not that any of us, apart from our few American correspondents, actually has a vote, but if you did and you wanted to put a stop to the “destruction of countries like Iraq, Afghanistan & Libya”, you would vote Trump as the only candidate with a chance of winning who is not a warmonger. Stein is a wasted vote.

      • Macky

        Voting Stein is not a wasted vote as it helps the Green Party achieved the 5% needed to secure government funding for next time; but more importantly at least your conscience will be clear & your hands unstained if Trump does turn out to be as bad or even worse than Clinton.

        I had already stated that at present if I had to chose at gunpoint between between Clinton & Trump, it would be Trump, although taking the bullet is also an option ! 😀

  • Anon1

    Interesting observation from the always excellent Andrew Neil on the BBC just now.

    With just two days to go where has Clinton been campaigning? Michigan. Which is supposed to be a safe state for the Democrats. And Pennsylvania, which isn’t meant to be a potential swing state.

    • lysias

      And guess where Trump and Pence will be holding campaign events in these crucial last days? In Minnesota, which was never supposed to be in any doubt for the Dems. But Trump advisers now say their internal polls put Trump within 3 points of Hillary in MN.

        • lysias

          I’m voting for Jill Stein, not Trump.

          I am inclined, howver, to think that it would be better for Trump, rather than neocon warmonger Hillary, to be elected. Which is why I’m deaf to those who claim that a vote for Stein is in effect a vote for Trump. (I also resent the assumption that the Dems have some right to my vote.)

          • kief

            Even that worthy vote is questionable since she is stuck at 2% and needs at least 5 for some consolation. For a time I toyed withe the notion that Trump just might shake things up, but I imagine someone holding a piece of paper declaring ‘Peace in our time’.

            Munich is not far-fetched considering the Trump machines operators.

          • lysias

            The idea that Putin is some kind of Hitler is laughably absurd.

            The Cold War-era neo-McCarthyite Russophobia in Hillary’s camoaign is one of the things I find most offensive in it.

          • kief

            Heh. The Trump/Putin bromance would have a short honeymoon. No I’m not referring to Putin as potentate. But Trump has the same nationalistic support and seems like a rug-muncher, doesn’t he? (see William Shirer)

          • lysias

            That a President Trump might make himself a dictator is possible. I’ll grant you that. It’s possible.

            But I rate the probability that Hillary would get us involved in more wars as considerably higher. And those wars, remember, kill lots of people.

            And a nuclear war with Russia caused by Hillary is just as possible as Trump making himself a dictator. And it would be a far worse disaster.

          • kief

            Conflict zones will continue to dog us for sure but what are your metrics for Trump’s volatile persona and insane revenge seeking making wars less likely? Have you heard of diplomacy? He hasn’t.

          • kief

            He ‘said’? He talks a lot. He also said Comey was part of the ‘rigged’ system. Now, he feels differently. Why do you put stock in words? Behaviors reveal the genuine intent.

  • Anon1

    Catholic Latino vote for Trump spiked 10 points according to same LA Times poll after it was revealed that Hillary Campaign chairman, John Podesta, is into Satan worship.

    What an election.

  • Trowbridge H. Ford

    Why does The Observer have to join the nutters too, claiming this US presidential election is not so bad, given the history of them since Jefferson was tainted as a libertine?

    Of course, we get the claim that JFK stole the 1960 one, Humphrey was a real challenge to Nixon, the Know Nothings, etc.

    Why does a respected newspaper have to join them?

    Secret funding from Donald supporters?

    • kief

      You mention Nixon and that is certainly appropriate. The case could be made that Nixon stole BOTH 1968 and 1972. First was his lies about ending the war, which was the cornerstone of his campaign. By 1972 Cambodia was illegally aflame, and we have the Booger Burglars bungling their task, so careless because of the rampant arrogance of that puerile administration.

      If arrogance were a commodity, Trump and Nixon would both be Billionaires.

      • lysias

        The Watergate burglars were all CIA veterans, and yet they made rookie mistakes. How could that be? Because the CIA was determined to bring down Nixon, who had been blackmailing the CIA with his knowledge of what had happened in the JFK assassination.

        And playing a central role in bringing Nixon down was the Washington Post, which was a crucial part of the CIA’s Operation Mockingbird.

        • kief

          They all had cash, with consecutive serial numbers from the dirty tricks fund. Haldeman’s stealth lawyer represented them all at their arraignment. The break-in was a minor exercise in a vast network of coordinated dirty tricks. Included in the conspiracy was the FBI, as well as CIA.

          I don’t know what to think of your assertion they worked against the Dick.

          • lysias

            The cash was another one of the deliberate rookie mistakes.

            Already the CIA’s predecessor, the OSS, avoided that kind of mistake with cash and documents when they sent agents into Occupied Europe.

  • Ron Showalter

    Oh, and for all of you pathetic know-nothings who have spent the last 5 months nursing your Bernie butt-hurt by rehabilitating the despicable piece of garbage that is Donald Trump, I’d like to save you some time w/ all your poll-watching and direct you to a really really smart poll analyst who was the most accurate predictor of the US elections the last time around.

    http://election.princeton.edu/

    He’s had Clinton’s win at 90%+ for a lonnggg time and it’s currently at >99% so unless crappy polls really make you feel better about your pathetic selves then I’d suggest you come back to reality. Or do we have to experience Trump butt-hurt as well?

    • kief

      The Tea-Baggers tried to revive the Whigs and Know-Nothings in their desperation to turn the clock back.

      They created Trump, and their shame in doing so was revealed by their fact-free, almost religious support of everything he says and does.

      • glenn_uk

        You clearly have a good insight into the process – far better than those with CDS (Clinton Derangement Syndrome) around here.

        The same Teabaggers which have unconditional love for Trump, and have no problem with all his crookedness and basically every despicable trait a human could possess, have also swallowed every rumour and conspiracy theory about the Clintons.

        That vast right-wing conspiracy machine has been humming away for 30 years. It’s now revving up to screaming point, well into the red-line.

  • kief

    The Nazis registered a large increase in votes in 1933. Despite waging a campaign of terror against their opponents, the Nazis only tallied 43.9 percent of the vote, well short of a majority. They needed the votes of their coalition partner, the German National People’s Party (DNVP), for a bare working majority in the Reichstag.

    This would be the last contested election held in Germany before World War II. Two weeks after the election, Hitler was able to pass an Enabling Act on 23 March with the support of all non-socialist parties, which effectively gave Hitler dictatorial powers. Within months, the Nazis banned all other parties, dissolved the Reichstag and replaced it with a rubberstamp legislature comprising only Nazis and pro-Nazi “guests.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

    • lysias

      One of the main reasons the disastrous Vietnam War happened is that American leaders couldn’t stop thinking about Hitler and the Nazis and drawing the wrong conclusion that dictators must never be appeased.

      Historical analogies are always imperfect. History never repeats itself exactly.

      • glenn_uk

        All the talk about Hitler was an excuse for a war – just as was in the lead up to the invasion and occupation of Iraq – nothing to do with the real motives, come on.

        • Habbabkuk

          I had been under the impression, Glenn, that the main reason for the Vietnam war was the domino theory and not the idea that dictators should never be appeased. But if you believe that the latter idea was indeed the main reason for the war (through a false analogy) then the question of who was the “dictator” at the time of the Vietnam war needs to be answered, surely.

          • glenn_uk

            Habbabkuk: Please note my previous (at 16:39) was directed at Lysias. Any leader who the US doesn’t like is called a “dictator”, and – worryingly enough – the BBC are obliging enough to follow suit (such as when Chavez had overwhelmingly won elections). My comment was about dictators in general, not Vietnam in particular.

            This “domino theory” was the given excuse in Vietnam, granted – countries just could not be allowed to have leaders that the US did not like, after all. I agree that the charge of having a “dictator” ought to be answered, but I wouldn’t hold out too much hope of Lysias backing up his assertion.

        • lysias

          I grew up in the 1950s and 1960s. If I had a dime for every time I heard someone make the point that the lesson of Munich was that dictators must never be appeased, I would be a rich man. They made that argument about Vietnam, as well as about everything else involving dealings with Communism.

          And, by the way, that was an argument Anthony Eden made about Suez.

          • Habbabkuk

            Who was the “dictator” in the Vietnam story – the “dictator” you say the Americans could and should not appease?

            Answer the question and prove Glenn (17h47) wrong.

      • lysias

        Plus, the hstorical analogy that scares me is 1914. It’s all too easy to imagine a no-fly zone in Syria leading to a situation that spirals out of control and results in a world war. I do not relish the thought of me, possibly all humans, and maybe even all advanced life on earth brings incinerated in a nuclear holocaust.

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