Options for Independence 1387

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So what do we do now with Theresa May apparently obdurate on blocking the referendum?

It is important to realise politics are fluid. In a week’s time the situation will not be what it is today. The battle for public opinion is key. The unionist media (ie virtually all of it) are asserting continuously, as a uniform line, that opinion polls say the people of Scotland do not want a second Independence referendum in the timescale Nicola Sturgeon has set out – even though that is not true at all. The serial Tory crooks at You Gove came out with an opinion poll right on cue “showing” that support for Independence is hitting new lows. But I suspect it will not be long before evidence emerges that May’s unattractive diktat has profoundly assisted the Independence cause. That will change the game.

So with a wind of public opinion behind her, what does Sturgeon do if Westminster denies a Scottish Parliament request for a referendum? There are several options:

1) Hold an Advisory Referendum

It appears probable (though not undisputed) that the Scottish government can hold a referendum which is not binding, without Section 30 permission from Westminster. It is hard for Westminster to dismiss the result of an advisory referendum, given that Brexit was only an advisory referendum and May has taken as a matter of faith that it is binding.

But as we saw in Catalonia, a boycott by unionist forces can be quite effective in denying the credibility of a non-binding referendum result. I strongly suspect that would be their attitude to an advisory referendum, and I do not see it as a strong way forward.

2) Call a New Holyrood Election

This is an attractive option in many ways. It would be predicated on the plain statement that a new pro-Independence majority would declare Independence unilaterally. That would be the normal and internationally accepted way for a country to secede – a referendum is very much the exception.

But there are problems with this approach. The first is that it would require a two thirds majority of the Scottish parliament to dissolve it, and the Unionists would in all probability simply block it. Forcing them to do that may be a good move, but doesn’t take us far forward.

The second problem, should parliament dissolve, is the campaign itself. As it would not be a referendum campaign, media coverage would not be balanced on independence, but the unionist parties in effect given three times the coverage of the SNP, assuming the Greens continue to be very poorly treated. But as the “Balance” of the referendum coverage was risible anyway, I am not sure this is so much of a drawback.

More difficult is the uncertainty created by the appalling De Hondt system. There is no doubt that the optimum outcome for Independence would be for every Independence supporter to vote SNP 1 and Green 2. But in practice that will never happen on a significant scale, and what is the best way to utilise your vote to achieve independence is simply not predictable. Risking all on a system so prone to statistical fluke is a problem.

3) Call a National Assembly

In the event that Scotland is being blocked from holding either a referendum or an election, the Scottish Government could move to convene a National Assembly. This might consist of all MPs, MSPs and MEPs and that body could declare Independence. To be clear, that would be a revolutionary act in UK terms, but it is perfectly normal for such an act to be required at the birth of a new state and is no bar to it being accepted in international law as a state through recognition by the United Nations General Assembly.

The argument would run that, having been blocked at every turn from holding a democratic vote either by way of referendum or parliamentary election, the Scottish government had taken the option of convening all representatives democratically elected at the national level – MSPs, MPs and MEPs, and these elected representatives of the Scottish people had made the decision. That is perfectly respectable and entirely analogous to the way many EU members such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Slovenia, Croatia, the Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent.

To return to my original argument, the possibilities depend very much on how public opinion is seen to be trending. May’s calculation appears to be driven firstly by a desire to play to her Brexiteer base in England – which judging by the rabid comments pages across the media is very successful – and secondly by a desire to further polarise Scottish politics to the benefit of the Scottish Tories. She is more than happy for Independence to be decided on a straight SNP vs Tory field. That May thinks she can win such a battle is an example of staggering hubris.

I have been saying in all of my speeches across Scotland in the last year that the game has changed and we have to be prepared for the idea we may have to achieve Independence without the consent or cooperation of the Westminster government. I am happily no longer a radical outlier in this belief.

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1,387 thoughts on “Options for Independence”

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    • D-Majestic

      Well-the Tories have always been interested in prisons. And Diplock courts. And folk like Pinochet.

  • michael norton

    Oil still dropping in price

    Just before the turn of the year Brent Crude was $57/barrel

    four months later is has dropped to $50.45/barrel

    • nevermind

      the pound is dropping faster, so inflation will inexorably rise. Today we have some very privilidged person, who can afford any food, any horse and any stable boy, speak out about the marvels of GM food, aih…. its so much cheaper, blahblah.

      Off course the comment is used straight away by the MSM,to advance a failed technology, a white elephant that has cost taxpayers hundreds of millions if not billions, during the last twenty years, without an iota of support in the markets or the public, a failed industry.

      That said advances that are controllable, in medicine and other sciences, should be going ahead. To confuse these new technologies and force consumers to eat engineered foods that have totally unrelated genetics added to it, in many times jumping 2000 years of evolution, mixing and matching genes that have never ever matched, as they go along.

      We can feed the world but we prefer to use food as a lever and we have no control over the logistics. That said, the Sahel is not likely to feed those that are born there and the people struggling to stay put, they are kept away from food by war, our arms and greed.
      If there would be no arms to sell for these rebels/freedom fighters, if arms companies and traders would be prosecuted for selling arms to such areas of international deprivation, then these people could be fed.
      Their problem is that they have to eat what comes and much of it is GM corn these days.

  • michael norton

    If 57,000 Scottish workers are given their cards the day Scotland becomes another country.
    More than one billion pounds annually will not be transfered from Westminter to Scotland ( just for the 57,000 U.K. State employees )
    I can understand than some of these works can be re-depolyed by The New Independent Scottish Regime but that one billion pounds will not be moving North from Westminster into the New Scottish Economy.

    • mochyn69

      Michael Norton, your ramblings are becoming more and more incoherent.

      What are you on about? Please expain!

    • michael norton

      SCOTLAND’s government deficit is on track to remain at more than TWICE the maximum level required for EU membership,
      according to the Fraser of Allander Institute.
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39345321

      Oh dear.

      The Fraser of Allander report also includes a forecast of rising unemployment, from a rate of 4.7% in the most recent figures for November to January, rising to 5% this year, 5.3% in 2018 and 6.1% the year after.

      That represents a rise from 129,000 Scots seeking work to 166,000.

    • michael norton

      I wonder how many people are directly or indirectly employed in Scotland for The Royal Navy?

      The first of a fleet of five warships being built on the Clyde has been formally named HMS Forth.

      A bottle of Deanston 12-year-old malt was broken over the bow of the 90-metre Offshore Patrol Vessel in a ceremony at BAE Systems’ Scotstoun yard.

      The ship is expected to go into service next year and will be used for counter-terrorism, anti-smuggling and defence.

      The MoD said work on HMS Forth and her sister ships was sustaining 800 Scottish jobs.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-39217222

      Nice work if you can get it.

    • michael norton

      “Both groups believe the raid was carried out by US-led coalition jets.”
      Ministry of Truth

  • Anon1

    Great front page on today’s Daily Mail.

    Good to see that paper bucking the trend of media eulogies to “Ireland’s Mandela”.

  • lysias

    Plot thickens in probe of House IT contractors: “A criminal investigation into IT contractors employed by dozens of House Democrats is sparking broader concerns about continuing access to sensitive government emails, amid new allegations of illicit activity beyond Capitol Hill. The investigation was announced last month by the U.S. Capitol Police and purportedly focuses on the contractors’ access to House computers and whether they took hardware and made questionable IT-related purchases. A police spokesman, while declining to go into detail, told Fox News this week that the case remains opens and focuses on “the actions of House IT support staff.” But a high-level House staffer acknowledged Monday to Fox News that the probe has raised concerns about emails being hacked. Official documents and multiple sources say at least five contractors — including brothers Imran, Jamal and Abid Awan — are the focus of the probe but that as many as six people could be involved. The others purportedly involved are Imran’s wife, Hina Alvi, and Rao Abbas, who is not part of the family. They allegedly removed hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment from offices, including computers and servers, and ran a procurement scheme in which they bought equipment, then overcharged the House administrative office that assigns such contractors to members. Sources also say the contractors, including one who worked for Florida Democratic Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, had “unauthorized access” to the House computer system. The connection to the former Democratic National Committee boss has sparked questions about whether the contractors could have ties to the DNC hack last summer, which was seen to hurt Hillary Clinton’s ultimately failed White House bid — or whether Russia or other outside operatives accessed emails that the contractors allegedly put on a cloud server.”

    RT: 5 congressional staffers in criminal probe over unauthorized computer access: “Five people employed by members of the House of Representatives remain under criminal investigation for unauthorized access to Congressional computers. Former DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz employed at least one of those under investigation.”

    Suspect In House IT Security Probe Also Had Access To DNC Emails: “Imran Awan — the lead suspect in a criminal probe into breaches of House of Representatives information security systems — possessed the password to an iPad used by then-Democratic National Committee Chairperson Debbie Wasserman Schultz when DNC emails were given to WikiLeaks, The Daily Caller News Foundation Investigative Group has learned.”

    They were apparently all employed by House Democrats.

    If they were involved in the transfer of the DNC emails, I don’t know how consistent that would be with Craig’s story about how the emails got to Wikileaks. There were, in any case, at least two sets of emails, the DNC ones and the ones on Podesta’s computer. So maybe the two sets were transferred in entirely different ways.

    • lysias

      Politico: House Democrats fire two IT staffers amid criminal investigation: “Two House Democrats this week fired technology staffers linked to an ongoing criminal investigation, more than a month after the couple in question was barred from House computer networks. Rep. Gregory Meeks (D-N.Y.) confirmed to Politico that Hina Alvi’s last day as an IT support staffer in his office was Tuesday. Her husband, Imran Awan, was working for Rep. Marcia Fudge (D-Ohio) as of Tuesday evening, but a spokeswoman for Fudge said midday Wednesday that Awan was no longer an employee. As of Wednesday, Awan was still working as a technology adviser for Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.), although he’s been blocked from accessing the House computer system since early February. Alvi, Awan and three other House aides, including Abid Awan and Jamal Awan, relatives of Imran Awan, and Rao Abbas, are all linked to the criminal investigation being conducted by the U.S. Capitol Police.”

  • lysias

    Daily Mail: EXCLUSIVE: Trump confidante Roger Stone doubles down on claim British spies did Obama’s dirty work and says he was wiretapped too:

    Roger Stone says the British government did spy on Donald Trump for Barack Obama before the November election. British intelligence said last week that Judge Andrew Napolitano’s claim on Fox & Friends that GCHQ had done Obama’s dirty work was ‘utterly ridiculous.’ A longtime friend of Trump’s, Stone told DailyMail.com that ‘despite the quick denials,’ he thinks ‘Judge Napolitano is correct.’ ‘My own sources high up in the Tory government, who are quite powerful, assured me that there was surveillance by the Brits,’ he stated. ‘Of course they deny it. That’s their job to deny it.’

    And we also have to take account of the GCHQ’s sudden and mysterious resignation (allegedly to spend more time with his family) on Jan. 23, 3 days after Trump’s inauguration.

    • Republicofscotland

      Rob.

      I did point out last week the huge security service mock terrorist attack, less than a week later we have this event.

      • RobG

        Republicofscotland, I missed your post, but I echo your own thoughts about these ‘terror drills’.

        They will try to label us as ‘fake news’, but actually we’re just people who try to look at events rationally.

        We now live in a totally mad world.

        As I see it there’s now only two scenarios: either the American empire will collapse, Soviet-style, or else there will be another major war.

        That’s the corner we have allowed ourselves to be backed into.

        Fear, fear, fear!

    • RobG

      I’m listening to LBC (UK) radio and they’re calling it as an ‘islamic terror attack’, despite the fact that this event has only just occurred and no one yet knows what really happened.

      Utterly contrived, from start to finish.

      I’m sure many of you are trembling in your boots, which is what the psychopaths who rule you want.

      They’ll probably find a Syrian passport at the scene.

      Yawn.

      (gosh, I’ve never called out a false flag as fast as this one, which is perhaps a sign of the times)

      Martin McGuinness died recently. I lived in London during the worst of the IRA bombing campaign during the 1970s and 80s (which included two serious attempts to kill the prime minister and senior cabinet ministers). This event today is not only a false flag, it’s chicken-feed propaganda.

      Watch the pressitutes totally hype it up, just to push the police state agenda.

      • Kempe

        ” I’ve never called out a false flag as fast as this one, ”

        Yes you can make up the “evidence” later although I’m sure David Icke and Chris Spivey will save you the trouble.

        Looks like one person has died but then it was probably the same crisis actor that “died” at Beslan and Nice.

        • RobG

          Terrorists, and I mean real terrorists, don’t make attacks like what is being reported at the moment.

          It’s all total nonsense that egits like you believe.

          By the way, Treeza got slaughtered today at PMQs.

          • MJ

            “Terrorists, and I mean real terrorists”

            Terrorists are terrorists, whoever they are.

          • Kempe

            I never realised you had such an in depth expert knowledge of international terrorism. You must’ve spent years studying the subject.

            Please enlighten us as to what “real” terrorists would have done and why.

      • Shatnersrug

        I’m trying to get what happened here, nutter stabs policeman. Policemen shoot everyone and drive into a fence from what I can tell. I’m going home.

          • Shatnersrug

            Well there’s an awful lot of hooha going on, but it seems like the police making a mountain out of a mole hill, and it will undoubtly be exaggerated to cover their failings and used for Mays nefarious political purposes

            Luke Harding is the guardians man on the scene so you can expect to hear no truth from Mr GCHQ

          • Shatnersrug

            One woman dead…

            But she was run over by a bus so that doesn’t really count does it?

      • Dave

        Yes I agree its so blatant and obviously fake its offensive in itself and must be based on the dictum if you’re not with us you’re against us and can’t be against us by mistake by innocently pointing out problems with the immediate, determinist and world wide coverage, because it isn’t obviously fact without reason. E.g. how do you know the ‘attackers’ motive when he was immediately killed before he could speak, let alone the mismatch of commentary to pictures shown. But alas it does work because if everyone, the state and MSM, say its real, its real and its very difficult to say otherwise or for anyone to agree in fear of their prospects. I.e. Hello Police State.

  • Velofello

    Well Fred, I read Mr Lovat’s response, crammed full of….facts? Naw, much jaw jaw though. Where do you dig this stuff up? I take it you don’t have a me(n}tal detector?

    Reference GERS,thanks for your partial reply – I’m getting accustomed to them – on my query of why does only Scotland receive a GERS report. And your explanation that the S in GERS means Scotland, who would ever have thought.

    Keep them coming Fred, keep them coming.

    • fred

      If you tell me which part you didn’t understand I’ll see if I can explain it to you.

  • RobG

    As a result of the ‘Westminster terror attack’ the Scottish parliament have suspended their debate on a second Scottish independence referendum.

    Strange how these ‘terror events’ always seem to coincide nicely with political stuff (this is very apparent in French politics).

    But I believe in fairies and Father Christmas.

    • Anon1

      “Strange how these ‘terror events’ always seem to coincide nicely with political stuff”

      Perhaps because there’s “political stuff” going on all the time, you cretin.

      • glenn_uk

        There are also security drills taking place frequently. That doesn’t stop the False-Flaggers getting all hysterical whenever one happens around the time of one of these nut-job terrorist attacks.

  • michael norton

    Downing Street says Saint Theresa May will chair a COBRA emergency meeting tonight after the attack on
    The United Kingdom parliament

    • michael norton

      Soon they are planning to close down The United Kingdom parliament,
      as the building is in danger of collapsing.
      Hey, they could use that one in Scotland, I am sure that nice Sturgeon woman will not mind?

      • Shatnersrug

        They’ll turn it in ‘luxury’ apartments if they get half a chance, these people are beneath contempt

  • Habbabkuk

    Those on here like RobG, RoS, Shatnersrug who deny the reality of terrorism against Western countries are guilty, objectively, of supporting that terrorism.

    • RobG

      I’m sure you are aware of how many American and British made bombs are currently being dropped on countries like Syria and Yemen. I’m sure you are also aware of what American-led sanctions are doing to countries like this.

      Ah but fuck women and child in places like this, they’re all wogs, innit.

    • Shatnersrug

      Hab, you are guilty of supporting that terrorism – you continually play into these small time clowns hands by exaggerating

      Btw I’m not denying the reality of terrorism, I’ve lived through many terrorist attacks in this city and I lost a colleague in the Bataclan shooting.

      What I am doing is questioning the outrageous over reaction as usual on the part of the police and the media

      I mean who seriously drives their car into railings and attacks the police in the most heavily policed part of the uk?

      Answer:
      an idiot

      I refuse to be scared by these clowns and I refuse to be scared by the media or by you an your hyper-bollocks.

      • Herbie

        Very good.

        I’ve made a similar argument below, after yours.

        This is the only adult response to terrorism.

        Habby’s response and that of msm and even the police seems to be to give succour and confort to these terrorists in terms of magnifying their efforts into wall to wall publicity.

        That’s a success for terrorism.

        And makes it much more likely they’ll plan similar efforts again, knowing that msm will give them maximum effect and publicity.

        MSM media is talking up the terrorist agenda, and we have to remember how they did precisely the same with Al Qaeda and ISIS.

        This is at such variance with what one would expect that you do have to ask yourself who media are working for.

        Us or the terrorists.

        • Shatnersrug

          The police statement would be funny if it wasn’t so lame.

          ‘We have been waiting for a moment like this, sadly now it’s happened’

          Ah right so that’s what all these 10a of millions of pounds you’ve spent was for – protecting us from a clown with a knife, which they sort of did after he’d done a bit of damage and killed a bobby, although I can’t imagine it would have been any different 30 years ago when there was a more modest met.

          Police when drafting your statement try to sound a bit less like you enjoyed it eh?

      • Habbabkuk

        “Hab, you are guilty of supporting that terrorism – you continually play into these small time clowns hands by exaggerating ”
        _____________________

        Nice try, Shatnersrug.

        Do you still stand by your earlier post, you terrorism-denier :

        “I’m trying to get what happened here, nutter stabs policeman. Policemen shoot everyone and drive into a fence from what I can tell. I’m going home.” ?

      • Habbabkuk

        Shatnersrug moves the goalposts (prudently):

        “I refuse to be scared by these clowns and I refuse to be scared by the media or by you an your hyper-bollocks.”
        _____________________

        Not a question of what scares you, laddy – it’s your automatic denial that terrorist attacks take place which is the point at issue. Those who deny the reality of terrorism – as you did – objectively support it. Be very careful.

        • Herbie

          Once more for the hard of thinking.

          Terrorism is all about scaring the public. That’s its function.

          Its function is not to effect a military attack on its enemy.

          No.

          It’s simply to scare the public

          In talking up these terrorist attacks habby and others actually assist the terrorists in their objective.

          And that is curious. Very curious.

          And troubling behaviour.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            I see both points of view, but I don’t fully agree with either.

            Certainly, if a terrorist succeeds in hampering the normal peaceful existence of the citizen, and, better, provokes the imposition of restrictive laws and intrusive surveillance on the population at large, he has weakened our (relative to his own ideas) free and democratic system, pushing it more in the direction of his own dogma, and has hence, in his own terms, won. Clearly, a minimal response, denying the terrorist the oxygen of publicity is what is called for. Also, the enaction of specific counter-terrorism legislation is counterproductive. We should be seen to be continuing to deal with each offence evenhandedly. Branding someone a terrorist before bringing him to trial on special charges enhances his notoriety among his fellows, and, again, is evidence that the terrorist’s target has been shaken.

            The primary objective of a terrorist is to frighten people, hence the name. We should not be frightened. And we should not ascribe to the terrorist’s community as a whole, whatever that may be, the characteristics of the terrorist. Some will undoubtedly do so (and some of those would be horrified if I were to ascribe to Xudaism as a whole the murderous tendencies of the King David Hotel bombers). Those communities, subjected to such an association, will inevitably be more prone to produce resentful, not-very-bright and easily radicalised young men to afflict us in the future. ‘Keep calm and carry on’ might not be a bad slogan even now.

            All that said, if you’ve got that far, I agree that it is supportive of terrorism to deny or excuse its existence. Murdering innocent civilians in pursuit of a political goal is always unacceptable. Doing so systematically is heinous. And denying its occurrence, or, without very clear evidence, the identity of its perpetrators – typically to present the state as author of the terror – simply identifies such a commentator as being as much an enemy of society as the terrorist. Divide and conquer is a principle very firmly embedded in political subversion, as I think one or two of our commentators know all too well.

            So Habb v Herbie – one-all.

          • Herbie

            You present my argument rather well, Ba’al.

            And top marks for attempting to defend habby’s efforts to talk up terrorism at every opportunity.

            That last para needs a lorra lorra work though.

            I mean:

            You say:

            “I agree that it is supportive of terrorism to deny or excuse its existence.”.

            That’s precisely what Thatcher’s policy was in dealing with the IRA.

            She criminalised it, you see. The whole policy was to depoliticise it.

            She wasn’t a supporter of the IRA.

            She did precisely what I’ve advocated above.

            The only question is why we aren’t pursuing that very sensible policy today.

          • Herbie

            And this:

            “Divide and conquer is a principle very firmly embedded in political subversion”

            Divide and Conquer is much more associated with Empire.

            But more generally it’s a tactic used in all political activity.

            Split your opponents.

            And it’s used on an issue by issue basis, in boardrooms and committees up and down the country.

            I daresay you’ll see its use cropping up in the local golf club or neighbourhood group.

            It’s nothing to do with political subversion especially.

          • Herbie

            I mean, they’ve even got a name for it in the US.

            Your “divide and conquer” which you say is “a principle very firmly embedded in political subversion”

            In US politics it’s simply your common or garden, everyday “wedge issue”.

            Political subversion, my arse!

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Repicking apart your picking apart of my thoughts – Thatcher criminalised terrorism, sure. One of my points is that giving terrorism a special status -eg by writing new laws to cover it – is counterproductive. There is no crime a terrorist can commit which is not covered by the pre-Thatcher (and worse, pre- Blair) criminal law. Thatcher was almost contradicting another of her policies – denying the terrorist the oxygen of publicity* was not facilitated by giving him added uniqueness in the courts, and negated the principle of applying justice evenhandedly to all.

            * http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/04/margaret-thatcher-and-the-oxygen-of-publicity/

            The oxygen-withdrawal has my full support (additionally on the grounds of sheer tedium and the need to flick through ten pages of punditry-with-pics on the latest atrocity in today’s paper). But it shouldn’t make any difference to the legal procedure -as it does now – whether a murder was committed for gain, personal revenge, terror or on behalf of the Salvation Army. We must agree to disagree there.

            Your ‘divide-and-conquer’ point is trivial. If it’s embedded in politics generally – I don’t argue with that – it is automatically embedded in political subversion. The intention of the terrorist is to frighten. His objective is deeper: to subvert. It could be further argued that subversion of the other side is also embedded in politics. Perhaps I could have phrased it better.

          • Herbie

            We aren’t disagreeing about the oxygen of publicity.

            I mean, that was my whole point.

            What we are disagreeing about is that denying the oxygen of publicity is somehow political subversion.

            It ain’t, as the Thatcher example shows.

            So, what we should really be asking ourselves is to what extent current govt policy differs from that followed by Thatcher.

            Remember that Thatcher was very successful against the IRA in the 80s.

            Not so much in terms of stemming their political support in NI itself, but in undermining their support in the US, the RoI and in Britain and Europe as well.

            Their movement lost a lot of international traction during Thatcher’s tenure.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            But I’m NOT saying that ‘denying the oxygen of publicity is somehow subversion’; at all. I’m saying that it doesn’t help in denying the oxygen of publicity, which I agree is desirable, if you make terrorist cases special in any way, such as writing new legislation to cover them. (see also ASBOs, which became a badge of pride for those receiving them)

            I’ll try and put my ‘subversion’ thought another way. One aim of any disruptive agent in society must be to cause and foster dissent in that society at large. This weakens society’s response, and undermines agreement as to what that society stands for or represents. The comments on this blog perfectly illustrate the division of opinion caused by one action. Those for a false flag (and hence, everything they’ve been told is false news) deny the existence of an outside threat, and want us to be frightened of the sinister government. The Islamophobes want us to be frightened of all Muslims. Whatever the cause of the fright, we are encouraged to be frightened, and the terrorist has won if we are.frightened. He doesn’t care what precisely we’re frightened of: the disunity and irresolution are what he wants.

            And, on CM, has got.

          • Dave

            The hyper-inflated incontinence over a minor incident only makes sense if the State wants to utilise the incident for their own interests and if so the immediate and coordinated world wide response and scripted commentary indicates foreknowledge! I mean the Government Cabinet Office ordered all public bodies to hold a minutes silence and fly flags at half mast moments after the ‘attack’!

            Also the official and media response breaks anti-terrorist legislation about glorifying terrorism, but clearly some who glorify terrorism are “more guilty than others”!

        • Shatnersrug

          You are a very rude and unpleasant individual Hab – I hope the mods remove your childish and deliberately provocative posts.

  • Habbabkuk

    Mr Craig Murray to comment after his various statements that there is no terrorism in the UK and that the security services and their doings are therefore unnecessary?

    • Anon1

      I should think he’s still putting the finishing touches to his “The Martin I Knew” piece.

    • RobG

      So the totally corrupt and vile security services pull another false flag.

      What’s new?

      This latest one is so clumsy it’s breathtaking.

      All egged-on by the vermin in the security services.

      What are we going to get now: “Je suis Westminster”?

      Just watch the presstitutes roll it all out.

      It’s both childish and tragic.

  • Velofello

    Hi Fred, reference your offer to explain, whatever, there’s no need. Just you continue contentedly hoovering around with your mental detector searching for Empire 1 ‘n 2 treasures.

    • Habbabkuk

      You and your fellow independence armchair warriors are completely unable to deal with Fred by force of argument and with facts, aren’t you.

      All you can do is insult him or come out with silly little snippets like the above at 17h53.

      You don’t even rate a Gentleman’s Fourth because you are not gentlemen 🙂

  • Habbabkuk

    “By the way, Treeza got slaughtered today at PMQs.”
    _____________________

    People with long memories might recall that Mrs Margaret Thatcher didn’t do too well against Mr Harold Wilson at PMQs at first either.

    And there are those who said that Mr James Callaghan usually had the upper hand over her at PMQs.

    But who saw off whom when it really counted, eh? 🙂

        • Herbie

          Sunny Jim wasn’t so much seen off as along for the ride.

          Anyway, Thatcher was an imbecile as in her comparisons of the macro economy to the household or domestic budget show.

          The bankers, corporates and casino financiers saw off the labour movement.

          As they harvested the wealth created by post WWII labour.

          Fatten up for a generation, then reap the harvest.

          There’s a reason Orwell called his work, “Animal Farm”

          • Habbabkuk

            Yes, Professor – an imbecile who turned Britain round economically.

            But you’re very nostalgic for the glorious 1970s, aren’t you.

          • Herbie

            No, actually.

            I’m nostalgic for the 1950s.

            Before the Globalists started destroying productive economies in which people were well paid, towards the disastrous debt and financialised economies we know so well today.

          • Habbabkuk

            “I’m nostalgic for the 1950s.

            Before the Globalists started destroying..etc, etc…”
            ____________________

            Of course, Herbie.

            The 1950s.

            When the colonial empires were still strong, when China and India were still mired in extreme poverty, when there were no emerging economies and when half of Europe was enjoying life under the Soviet heel.

            Curious.

          • Herbie

            Yeah well.

            Now that you mention that context.

            Perhaps that’s why we were doing so well.

          • Habbabkuk

            Yes, and Geoffrey (that’s Mr Howe to you, by the way) wasn’t much good at PQs either.

            Give it up, laddy, you’re outgunned. Stick to agreeing with the Eminences.

    • Anon1

      She didn’t get slaughtered though. Corbyn was useless as usual. Short of soiling himself live on TV there is nothing the 3 quid tramp can do to any lower in the polls

        • Habbabkuk

          “In spite of wearing her f off pearls, she would be lost without her folder of prompt sheets.”
          _________________________

          Have you not noticed that all ministers come to PQs with a folder of replies to the questions and replies to likely supplementary questions?

          Nothing unusual.

          As for being lost, I shouldn’t think they’d be any more lost than you would be if you didn’t have the BBC and the MSM to cut-and-paste from; God knows there’s hardly ever anything of your own production in your posts 🙂

      • D-Majestic

        Do you mean the accurate polls (Virtually none) or the inaccurate polls (Most of the important ones-strangely inaccurate since about the year 2000).

        • Anon1

          Polls are inaccurate. We know that from Brexit and Trump. They can be edged a few points either way to manipulate public opinion.

          But Corbyn is a genuine disaster (for the Labour Party). There’s no way of looking at it other than as the most hopeless opposition in history.

          • D-Majestic

            Boring old Anti-Corbyn cut and paste.Orchestrated daily each week across the media. All in the interests of ‘Protecting our democracy’ no doubt.

    • Habbabkuk

      “It’s amazing how soon Wikipedia update their pages”
      ___________________

      Not really “amazing”.

      It’s just that lots of people are eager to update their fellow citizens.

      A bit like you and certain others on here.

    • Sharp Ears

      It is certain that Treeza will now up her war on terror. Nobody will be able to move.

      • Habbabkuk

        Moe attention should certainly be paid to those who, by denying the reality of terrorism, are guilty of objectively supporting it. That includes several on this blog.

        • J

          Moe attention should certainly be paid to those who, by denying the reality of terrorism, are guilty of objectively supporting it.

          Yes. As has already been pointed out, you are objectively the foremost supporter of terrorism on the blog. Turn yourself in immediately.

          • Herbie

            Yes.

            Habby and others on here do seem to take a delight in talking up the threat of terrorism.

            That’s what msm does too.

            It’s like they’re operating as a kind of effect multiplier for these terrorists, fellow travellers in getting their message across.

            If that’s not providing support for terrorism, it’s hard to know what else it is.

            And we’ve seen precisely the same thing all during the Al Qaeda and ISIS atrocities.

            Normally you’d expect that a victim state would downplay these terrorists.

            But no.

            They highlight and exaggerate the threat.

            Very curious.

        • Ben

          It’s the flip-side of WMD myths.

          Not all Muslims are terrorists, therefore NO Muslims are terrorists.

          Quid pro quo/cui bono.

      • Resident Dissident

        Every time there is terrorism aimed at a western democracy Mary comes out with a tasteless attack against the government of the state concerned. If this isn’t objective evidence that she hates western democracies and supports terrorism then I don’t know what is.

        • IrishU

          It is pathetic and only a day after she attempted to justify IRA terrorism as legitimate force against an occupier under international law. There is also a noticeable lack of any comments expressing sorrow for those who died.

          • michael norton

            They are now saying a load of French school children were run over, a woman jumped into the Thames to escape.
            RT are saying the killer is a known Islamic Teacher.

      • RobG

        Proves nothing.

        As I’ve tried to show many times before, there’s a revolution going on in France at the moment.

        A revolution that the presstitutes and government agents will never mention.

        This is a fight for worker’s rights and essential human freedoms.

        Those of you who follow the hate/anti-immigration line are basically going down the bog hole, and are betraying your roots.

        The freedoms you still just about retain weren’t fought for by bankers and capitalists. They were fought for by those who had the balls to stand-up to these swine.

          • RobG

            Michael, please detail throughout history when ‘immigrants’ have overthrown ‘civilisations’.

            All previous civilisations, and most notably the Roman Empire, collapsed because of total corruption.

            And thus we are now seeing the same thing with the American empire.

            So, please, enough of all this total nonsense about ‘immigrants’.

            We are all brothers in arms.

            And most of us have had enough of the non-stop American wars.

          • michael norton

            Sorry Rob, I have no idea what u r on about.
            The police have said the Westminster Knife-man is known to them, they are not going to name him yet because they want to collect all his known associates, first, they have said, it is being treated as International Terror.
            They are not sure he acted on his Jack, earlier, it was said, there were two persons in the car.
            The police have not said he is Islamic but that is their inference.
            Five now known to be dead, with forty injured.

        • Shatnersrug

          Rob,

          I like Michael too, I wish he’d get over his immigrants thing, every piece of energy spent being cross with immigrants is energy that could be spent holding those really to blame to account.

    • lysias

      Here’s what Nunes said:

      “So first I recently confirmed that on numerous occasions, the intelligence community incidentally collected information about U.S. citizens involved in the Trump transition. Details about U.S. persons associated with the incoming administration, details with little or no apparent foreign intelligence value were widely disseminated in intelligence community reporting. Third, I have confirmed that additional names of Trump transition team members were unmasked. And fourth and finally I want to be clear, none of this surveillance was related to Russia or the investigation of Russian activities or of the Trump team.”

      “On numerous occasions,” so not just swept up by chance during surveillance of somebody else.

      And not related to Russia.

    • lysias

      Nunes said there are “multiple FISA warrants out there” involving Trump.

      FISA warrants mean, I think, that a foreign power is involved. But not Russia, according to Nunes. Israel?

    • lysias

      From CQ:

      “In Congress, Nunes said he received the information legally, but would not say when or from whom. He said it was not in response to a letter he and Schiff wrote to intelligence agencies requesting detailed information on the unmasking of Americans’ identities picked up in surveillance.

      “Nunes said he has a list of question he wants answered: Who was aware of the surveillance? Why wasn’t it disclosed to Congress? Who requested and authorized the unmasking of names? Did anyone direct the U.S. intelligence community to focus on Trump associates, and were any laws or procedures violated?”

    • lysias

      Question: Does this go beyond General Flynn type surveillance?

      “Well, it definitely goes beyond what happened to General
      Flynn” … “I’ll tell you NSA has been cooperative, but so far the FBI has not told us if they will respond to the March 15th request.” … “What I’ve read, seems to me to be some level of surveillance activity, perhaps legal, but I don’t know that it’s right – and I don’t know that the American people would be comfortable with what I have read.”

      Question: Was the President [Trump] correct with what he tweeted?

      “It is possible.”

  • fred

    WARNINGS by a Scots councillor over the accommodation of Syrian refugees have sparked fresh fury after a far-right group announced a protest on the back of the claims.

    The Scottish Defence League (SDL) said it would hold a rally in Wishaw in Lanarkshire, just weeks after the council’s former housing convenor said handing the refugees houses, rather than maisonettes or flats, could provoke anger among locals.

    http://www.eastkilbrideconnect.co.uk/news/15173870.Fury_as_councillor_s_refugee_warnings_sparks_far_right_Scottish_Defence_League_protest_plans_in_Wishaw/

    • Ben

      This reminds me of the war In veet nam when we abandoned the quest and refugees were given, and I mean given brand new craft for fishing in the Gulf of Mexico, directly competing with fishermen with .ancient boats.

      Typical Progressivism antics of selective compassion .

      • fred

        It isn’t the refugees fault Ben, they didn’t ask to be refugees and I suspect the houses they are going into are emergency housing, councils keep some larger houses in reserve, they can put a small family into a big house but not the other way round.

        You have to have some sympathy for someone who has had their name on a housing list for ten years, no sympathy at all for the racist bastards taking advantage of the situation to stir up trouble .though.

        • Ben

          Not blaming refugees, just the process that creates them complete with attendant bureaucracy which exists for its own self giving benevolence the hindmost seat on the bus and fewer options for the other half of the World.

  • lysias

    Reporter on RT saying there are reports that the London attacker was Abu Izzadeen (birth name Trevor Richard Brooks, but that there is another report that a journalist has spoken to Abu Izzadeen, who is allegedly still alive. Nothing in his Wikipedia entry about Chelmsford.

    • michael norton

      Almost certainly
      NOT FALSE FLAG.

      A woman has jumped from a huge height down into the Thames to escape the vehicle from Chelmsford, it was thought she was dead but still alive, just.
      Three policemen have been run over.
      A policeman, inside the grounds of Parliament has been stabbed, a government minister, ex-army, spent half an hour, trying to save him.

      This is real Rob G.

      • RobG

        If the ‘enemy’ actually dropped bombs on Parliament, maybe, but otherwise this is total nonsense that the trolls on this board will try to promote.

        That’s their job: to keep you in the Matrix.

        Fear, fear, fear!

        • michael norton

          Islamic State have requested that their acolytes attack transport and crowded places, with gas bottles, vehicles and knives.

          • Shatnersrug

            Oh it’s real michael, but just like the guy that attacked the soldier in woolwich im sure we’ll find that he’s been hassled my SIS for the last 6 years to the point of going mad.

          • Shatnersrug

            One of the oldest tenants of warfare is that you don’t bring the enemy to surrender by killing enemy combatants, you bring the enemy to surrender by breaking the will of the people, and you do that by attacking civilian targets, it’s why hitler burned villages, it why the Americans committed the Mai Lai massacre (incidentally not an aberration but completely standard exercise that the press got wind of) and it’s why coalition forces bomb hospitals in Syria.

            It’s why the British destroyed the mulberry trees of Afghanistan and created internment camps in South Africa. Warfare requires civilian death, anyone that tells you different is a Liar.

          • Five's a fix

            Agreed. It’s real. But is it Abu Izzadeen or not? Who is either alive or dead? Same mischief, different day? Even RT keep repeating Islamic terrorism when there is no evidence as yet. BBC just preparing the official truth 😉

          • Habbabkuk

            “One of the oldest tenants of warfare is that you don’t bring the enemy to surrender by killing enemy combatants, you bring the enemy to surrender by breaking the will of the people, and you do that by attacking civilian targets, ”
            ___________________

            Shatnersrug – the above will come as news to the military historians of WW2 and to the descendants of the Allied soldiers killed fighting the Wehrmacht. You are really insane, aren’t you.

          • Habbabkuk

            According to your theory – not shared by historians, by the way – D Day, the battles on the western and eastern fronts and the advances of the Allied armies into Germany from east and west were all unncecessary – the war would have been won by further bombing of German cities.

            You would be comical if you weren’t so twisted.

            (I think I discern what you’re really up to: you are one of those people who are of the view that the Allies were as bad as the Nazis and fascists, aren’t you.)

          • fred

            “Agreed. It’s real. But is it Abu Izzadeen or not?”

            It doesn’t look like it, both his brother and his lawyer say he is still in prison.

  • Anon1

    Looks like another vehicular jihad attack, the current in vogue form of slaying the infidel.

    Over four hours now since the first images emerged showing the obvious jihadist beard on the face of the dead attacker as he was stretchered from the scene, but nothing on that from the BBC or any mainstream media.

    • Sharp Ears

      You must not believe everything you are told by the media and shown on television.

      We even have CBS with this:

      CBS News
      (@CBSNews)
      WATCH LIVE: British PM Theresa May speaks from 10 Downing Street following deadly attack in London…pic.twitter.com/X9wNnDO…
      7 mins ago · Twitter

      She abandoned her shouting from earlier in this day to this fine piece of slow measured piece of staged tragedy.

      Theresa May: Westminster attack was ‘sick and depraved’
      http://news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-westminster-attack-was-sick-and-depraved-10811016

      Bevin has put it exactly below.

    • Ba'al Zevul

      Its been top of the news on Radio 4 since at least 1700. But maybe you’re disappointed there’s no pictures?

  • michael norton

    Ms. NICOLA Sturgeon was today warned Scots are “sick to death” of her second independence referendum demands.
    They want her to go and boil her head.

  • bevin

    “Those on here like RobG, RoS, Shatnersrug who deny the reality of terrorism against Western countries are guilty, objectively, of supporting that terrorism.” – HABBABKUK

    Nobody is a more consistent supporter of terrorism on this blog that you.
    You support Israeli government terrorism; you support the terrorist war being waged in Ukraine by neo-nazi militias promoted by NATO; you support the Saudi/GCC backed terrosits in Syria and Yemen, who are also supported by the US and its NATO satellites; you supported the wars in Iraq and Libya.
    And you consistently apologise for foreign policies which are designed to provoke terrorist attacks in western Europe in order to keep the population in a state of fear while its living standards are being subverted.
    On the other hand you are so dense, politically, so bloody invested in The Establishment and its ideology, that one feels slightly reluctant to point out these obvious things to you: you probably don’t think that it can be called ‘terrorism’ if the government says it is OK and that the national interest is at stake.
    Perhaps you could think it out: do you really not see that what is being done in Syria is that the US and Israel too, is sponsoring wahhabi militias to bring down the government and balkanise the region into impotent cantons run by puppet dictators? Do you really stick by the tale that Libya was reduced to social ground zero in order to prevent Colonel Ghaddafi from massacring the people of Benghazi-who have since been massacred, regularly, by US sponsored terrorists?

    • Chris Rogers

      @bevin,

      A voice of sanity and reason as ever Bevin.

      I’m also at a loss about today’s events on Westminster Bridge, which whilst a callous attack on numerous innocent victims does not add-up yet to a Terrorist outrage, rather, seems like the actions of a maniac than a ‘planned’ attack to gain maximum global publicity – maybe a case of ‘road rage’ of an extreme kind. Alas, we’d be better served if the MSM kept to reporting known facts, rather than speculating and allowing their speculation to concoct wild stories conflated with global terrorism, particularly given the tabs kept on most individuals by the security services.

      I shall wait for far more detail before jumping to any conclusion, whilst our ‘beloved’ MSM milk the tragedy for as much ‘click-bait’ they can get!

      • Habbabkuk

        From Chris Rogers : “A voice of sanity and reason as ever Bevin.”

        Habbabkuk says : with endorsements like that, who needs detractors?

        • Chris Rogers

          @Habbabkuk,

          Unlike you, Bevin, Shatnersrug, myself, JSD and many others post widely on Social Media, and indeed MSM BTL’s when allowed too. Never see anything by you outside of this forum, which is why you are ‘suspect’, unless of course you comment on SST, which is unlikely because the poster who uses Habbabkuk on that Blog actually speaks with both authority and a large dose of common sense!

      • giyane

        Trump declared war on Terror using the tag of Islam, so I guess we have to be made to worry about terrible repercussions from this very sensible policy. As false a flag as any pirate ship serving the English Crown.

        • Ben

          Another Trump acolyte, or rather progressive lite?

          Please tell us about the Muslim banner Trump and his stellar qualities as Presidunce of the Ages.

          Isn’t he just precious?

    • Shatnersrug

      Hab seemed to be threatening me I’m really wondering where the mods are on this.

      • Habbabkuk

        I wasn’t aware that I’d been threatening you – is paranoia one of your several ailments, I wonder? – but now you mention it it would perhaps be as well if someone were to do so.. It might be the only way to frighten you off pumping out the evil garbage you specialise in. You are really one of the worst on this blog:

        “Oh it’s real michael, but just like the guy that attacked the soldier in woolwich”

        “I’m trying to get what happened here, nutter stabs policeman. Policemen shoot everyone and drive into a fence from what I can tell. I’m going home.”

    • Shatnersrug

      I do hope there isn’t going to be some kind of lame arse media sponsored vigil, we all know that in times of terrorist attacks every good Londoner goes to the pub and then uses it as an excuse to bunk of work for the rest of the week, just like we did after the 7/7 bombing.

    • Resident Dissident

      “And you consistently apologise for foreign policies which are designed to provoke terrorist attacks in western Europe in order to keep the population in a state of fear while its living standards are being subverted.”

      So we had it coming? Sicko! Can you understand that there can never be provocation for such behaviour – unless you are without morals or a conscience.

  • Sharp Ears

    ציפי לבני‏Verified account
    @Tzipi_Livni 4hrs
    Our hearts are with the British today. Stand strong. The free world will defeat terror. #Westminster

    says the murderer of Palestinians.

    and
    Reuven Rivlin‏Verified account
    @PresidentRuvi Our thoughts are with the people of #London. Terror is a threat to us all and we must stand united against it. @IsraelinUK @ukinisrael

    So good to have all this support.

    Tel Aviv lights up in solidarity
    Posted at
    20:40
    Tony Kay, deputy head of mission at the British embassy in Israel, has tweeted a photo of Tel Aviv city hall lit up in the colours of the Union Jack.
    https://twitter.com/anthonypkay/status/844641862858276865

    • Ba'al Zevul

      I hadn’t heard. It’s unlikely to faze Campbell particularly as the NE (founded last year) is specifically intended to promote the EU and oppose Brexit, as Campbell also does, repeatedly. I did mention one such contribution, Alastair praising Heseltine, last week: You may find several instances of Campbell, as well as some loud blairing, here –

      http://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/topic/Person/Tony%20Blair

    • nevermind

      No I haven’t heard this either, news to me, but not impossible as this loss making rag of Arsechant has got nowt to do with loving Europe, its an excuse to sell papers to those who still do, an establishment vehicle to make dosh for this regional chain, far to thick a page, wannabe broadsheet, too much print to be of any value as chip paper.

      • Ba'al Zevul

        Did you actually buy one, Nevermind? Haven’t seen one yet – and would make no conscious effort to do so. See also:

        https://www.theguardian.com/media/2016/nov/04/the-new-european-publisher-to-axe-up-to-60-posts-in-digital-move

        Preaching to the converted, for sure. Circulation slowly falling (which may be why it took Campbell on), around 20,000. No advertising visible on website (though some of its content may well be advertorial), and search box for ‘nearest retailer’ fails for Archant’s postcode. Its readers will already be in the blissful thrall of confirmation bias.

        And, as Matt Kelly explains (he’s a real journo, btw, and it shows) the NE was intended only until interest ran out: it lasted longer than expected, but as it is reliant on its subscription income, it will die largely unmourmned by Archant when its reader gets sick of bering harangued by the likes of Blair – or indeed anyone capable of an op-ed on the delights of the Dordogne.

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