Already A Victory 333


We cannot know what will happen on Thursday. There are huge differentials in opinion polls. We now know that the pollsters’ samples, demographically weighted to reflect the population in terms of age, geographical spread, and past voting intention, return very similar results. What differs is the extent to which they apply the additional filter of judging likelihood to vote, not by people’s declaration on this point, but by historic records reflecting the fact turnout is much higher among the elderly. That in itself has thrown a spotlight on the massive age differential in voting. The Tories are extremely dependent on pensioners. It is precisely the same age group that supported Brexit and opposed Independence.

There has been some drop in Tory support among the elderly in the election, but only in line with the drop in the general population. The abandonment of the triple lock, the dementia tax and the end of winter fuel allowance have not particularly dented the loyalty of the Tory grey army.

So if younger people want to stop the Tories, they have to get themselves to the polling booth at all costs. As for campaigning, almost certainly more effective than attending rallies or sticking leaflets through strangers’ doors, would be to sit down and have a real heart to hear with elderly family members and acquaintances.

A quick disclaimer. I realise there are a lot of wonderful people of pension age who are not Tories. I am not attacking the elderly, I am stating a plain and undisputed fact about voting breakdown by age.

It is also the case that there has been a very definite trend away from the Tories for the last month, and there is little evidence to suggest that has stopped. So today’s polls are not how opinion will stand on voting day.

But this election has been a great victory already, whatever the result.

Firstly, a genuine alternative has been put to the electorate in England and Wales for the first time in a generation. And Jeremy Corbyn has proved beyond doubt that left wing policies are popular. Refusal to endorse nuclear weapons, aggressive foreign policy, privatisation and austerity are indeed popular. With New Labour triangulating themselves right into the neoliberal establishment consensus, English and Welsh voters had no opportunity to express a radical view since 1983.

The careerist Blairites who had taken over the Labour Party argued that it would be electoral suicide not to adopt all the Tory policies. NHS privatisation, utility privatisation, PFI, benefit cuts, Trident, attacks on foreign countries; these are what the public want, said the Blairites.

Corbyn is now proving that was a lie.

Indeed, of all the opinion poll findings which give results such as strong public support for renationalisation of the railways, that which drives the stake deepest into the hearts of the Blairites and Tories alike is the YouGov poll on foreign policy. People are not stupid, and by a two to one majority people believe that our wars abroad cause terrorism here. That is why the furious Tory attack, that to explain is to support, bounced off.

A clear majority of people oppose our recent wars in Muslim lands.

It is precisely those of Corbyn’s views which the entire mainstream media, the Tories and the Blairites consider unacceptable, and which fall well outside the Overton window, which are popular. That explains why the attacks do not work. The victory of this election is that those popular views have been expressed widely, after years of being banished methodically from the airwaves.

If May wins, she will almost certainly not have the huge landslide she expected. Her honeymoon period is well and truly over and she now has a very negative public image. That is going to get worse as we are heading into a Brexit recession and a house price crash. I agree with every word of this extremely important article from Will Hutton. May’s support is almost entirely from hard Brexiteers who are going to crash the economy to satisfy their racism. That will quickly appear a very bad idea.

A May government with a small majority, possibly dependent on Ulster Unionists, running a disastrous policy and becoming ever more unpopular, is the best outcome the Conservatives have left in terms of retaining power. All the media’s horses and all the media’s men are not going to be able to put together again the ludicrous image they had constructed of Theresa May as a great leader, which fell apart at the very first public scrutiny.

If Corbyn comes to power, he will almost certainly have to be supported by the SNP, who I am proud to say have an even more radical platform than Labour, including scrapping Trident and reversing all benefit cuts. How many Blairites would defect to the Tories rather than support a Corbyn government with SNP support is an interesting question. But remember, most Blairites would sell their mother for a ministerial limousine. Corbyn’s position against the Blairites has been immeasurably strengthened by this campaign, and win or lose, his party leadership is safe if he wants to keep it. If John Woodcock etc. wanted to take themselves off to form a second Tory Party that would be no bad thing at all.

Of course I want to see May defeated and out of office, because Tory policies actually kill people. But I will not be too disappointed by a pyrrhic Tory victory.

A renewed Tory government will quickly become extremely unpopular as it flails in Brexit negotiations. It will be more right wing and authoritarian than ever, because those are May’s instincts when in trouble. As a Scottish nationalist, I have no doubt at all that the clarity of the choice between a hard right Brexit led Tory government, and Independence, can have only one result. Whether May or Corbyn is in No.10, I am confident this is the last Westminster election I shall have to endure.

If May sneaks back, Corbyn can continue with the work of recasting the Labour Party on popular and radical lines. Most importantly, boundary changes will give the chance for reselections to ditch a large portion of the Blairite rump. Still better would be a change of rules for mandatory reselection, where again the SNP shows Labour the way. And by next time Corbyn must face down the disgustingly blinkered and selfish attitude of the GMB, who love getting fat pay packets for working on weapons of mass destruction, and Corbyn must get a policy on Trident which he can defend without twisting himself in knots – again following the SNP.

If May gets back in, her government will collapse by 2020. Even a “defeat” on Thursday would not be the end, but just the start of a new dawn for popular radical politics,

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333 thoughts on “Already A Victory

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  • Habbabkuk

    Someone, earlier on, seemed to characterise Mr Jeremy Corbyn as “powerful”.

    I beg to differ. In fact, it would be difficult to find a more evasive, weak and devious politician on the UK political scene.

    Just two examples, one from the election campaign and one from before it.

    Mr Corbyn, when asked in a radio interview on whether he would use the nuclear option as a response to an attack on the UK – ie, not as a first strike option – evaded giving a clear answer by burbling on about the need for everyone to eschew the use of nuclear weapons. Now, hoping that no one would use nuclear weapons is a perfectly honorable position but was not a clear answer to the question put. The truth probably is that Mr Corbyn, given his political background, would like have answered “no”. His failure to do so is indicative of his evasiveness and electoral cowardice.

    When faced with well-documented accusations of the anti-semitism displayed by some of the more unpleasant lefties in the Labour Party, what did Mr Corbyn do? He could have studied the evidence, rapidly, and taken one of two courses : he could have said “rubbish” and dismissed the charges or he could have expelled the culprits. But the first course of action would have got him into trouble with the anti-anti-semites in the party and elsewhere, whereas the second course would have upset the mindless supporters of Palestine. So what was Jeremy’s courageous and powerful solution? To call for an enquiry (what’s happened to it, by the way? Is not very bright Diane Abbott leading it?) and to …”suspend” the alleged offenders. Again, a cop out.

    Mr Putin, the EU 27 negotiators, Ms Sturgeon, Hamas and Hizbollah and sundry enemies of Britain must be burning offerings every evening in the hope that the pussy-cat will win.

    Here’s hoping that he won’t and that he disappears into the same dustbin of history from which he emerged so many decades ago.

      • Habbabkuk

        Slightly premature, Crosby. Schadenfreude usually comes after the event.

        • Sharp Ears

          @20.15
          You are going to a lot of trouble on here to denigrate Jeremy Corbyn, a fine human. Surely you know that the job has been allocated to the BBC so you are wasting your time.

    • Xavi

      Corbyn’s got more courage, principles and inner strength than the rest of parliament put together. Which other public figure could have withstood the beatings, slurs and lies he’s taken off the media and his “colleagues” in the past two years, and come out the other side to run our media-annointed Empress so close?

      • J

        Xavi, no politician in living memory has been tested as Corbyn has been tested. He’s quite remarkable. Just two years ago I’d given up on the possibility of a British politician addressing the real difficulties we face, from anthropogenic mass extinction and global warming to saving the corporations from themselves.

        The irony is, Jeremy is the best friend of every individual who is part of any corporation operating in the UK, because no one else is stepping up to speak for their best interests, least of all, the corporate entities which they comprise.

    • Steph

      I think you have kind of shot yourself in the foot with this argument! In the first example Corbyn’s complete opposition to nuclear weapons must be one of the most well-known and documented aspects of his character. But to give a straight ‘No’ answer would both contradict the stated policy in the Labour manifesto and provide a huge pile of ammunition to the media. What sensible politician is going to do that? We can all see, you included, that in repeatedly asking this question the media is not really seeking clarification on his position, they are simply trying to ‘trip him up’. His answer was neither evasive or cowardly, just a fairly adept balancing act. We do not need to know whether someone would actually ‘push the button’ or not, in fact the ‘not-knowing’ is supposedly the basis of the deterrent effect, isn’t it?
      In your second example you yourself have clearly identified Corbyn’s difficulty in steering a course between two factions and yet you seem to be suggesting that he is somehow ‘copping out’ by calling for an enquiry. I would suggest to you that in both scenarios Corbyn has in fact shown himself to be rather a skillful politician, but of course we all see what we want to don’t we?

      • Habbabkuk

        Ah, so now Jeremy is merely a “skilled politician”, eh?

        To pluck out just two other “skilled politicians”, I offer you Harold Wilson and Tony Blair.

        Both fairly devious and evasive** as well as being “skilled”.
        _____________________

        ** cowardly too in the case of ‘Orrible Harold.

        • Steph

          Indeed, that is as maybe! BUT, neither Wilson nor Blair could realistically be described as ‘weak’ could they?

        • D_Majestic

          What is not cowardly in declining to debate with other politicians on TV? Is one under the impression that one is in actuality Her Majesty? That position is very ably filled, thank you.

    • D_Majestic

      I think ‘Electoral cowardice’ might serve better as a term for appearances by someone preaching largely to the selected faithful and brainwashed, in small gatherings carefully guarded, and persistently declining to debate on TV. As opposed to large, well attended ones full of very ordinary people from a true cross-section of society. And of course Corbyn hasn’t got rid of 20.000 police officers and God knows how many explosives-detecting sniffer dogs and their handlers. As has been reported. Even Kuenssberg was asking about this very matter on BBC News not long ago. It’s gone a bit pear-shaped for the good old team, innit, John?

    • Herbie

      I think Corbyn will win friends around the world. Chomsky and Bernie Saunders are supporting him.

      He and they know there’s no need for all these fake enemies, and trying to manipulate the world through finance.

      That’s all the nuke thing is about.

      No need for it.

      It’s a fraud.

      When people just want to work and trade.

      Not plunder and pillage.

      The manly thing is to stand up to the fraudsters, when all around support them.

      To stand up to them against all the odds.

      And bring the people with you.

      We’re into an era of real leaders now, and moving away from your simple media performer careerist types.

    • MP

      Oh Habb, why don’t you just put a sock in it?

      The people you stand side by side with are not nice, wanting to waste billions on America’s useless clunking weapons of mass destruction, building walls instead of bridges, castigating anybody who criticises the policies of a certain entity with a vile racist slur and so on and so on.

      You get the picture?

    • SA

      ‘Mr Putin, the EU 27 negotiators, Ms Sturgeon, Hamas and Hizbollah and sundry enemies of Britain must be burning offerings every evening in the hope that the pussy-cat will win.’
      Manufactured enemies? And who are the Tories friends? Trump and Saudi Arabia .
      It was a very unnesscesary and ubdeplomatic thing for May to start this election campaign by treating our previous EU leaders with such disdain and cast them as jenemies purely for political gain and as an appeal to the little englanders. When you start negotiations you start upbeat and not antagonise those you will have to negotiate with. Moreover May never spelt out what a ‘no deal’ actually means. All in this forum are clever enough to know.

    • J

      As others have pointed out, the larger project you represent brought ‘Islamic terror’ to these shore for the first time in 2005.

      So quite the contrary. I’m embarrassed to acknowledge certain sections of this country as my own, spineless shits reminiscent of the frightened cows who were stampeded toward perpetrating the holocaust. By voices very much like your own, persuaded that they were on the right side of history, that they had a righteous grievance against the rest of the world even as they burned it down.

      You have no right to raise your head here pretending that you have any moral justification for the violence that you represent every time you appear to apologise for it.

    • Wolsto

      What a ridiculous post. To address one part of it, the enquiry into alleged anti-semitism in the Labour party was competed and published, and makes for a mature and balanced read.

      The last thing you can accuse Corbyn of is being devious. If anything his problem lies in his painful honesty, and refusal to lie and dissemble when required.

      This whole “would you blow up the world” question is absurd, anyway. It is utterly irrelevant to the current social and economic problems in the UK that urgently need addressing, and to be honest were I JC and someone tried to derail an interview away from questions of genuine policy and government with this obvious nonsense I’d tell them to get stuffed.

  • Made By Dom

    I’d love to see a new dawn for popular radical politics but I have a feeling that, even if Corbyn loses by a whisker, he’ll still be stabbed in the back by his own MP’s and those in the media that claim to support him.
    I think its very strange indeed that newspapers like The Guardian have gone from implying he’s a holocaust denier to suddenly giving him their support. My guess is a deal has been done whereby those that really hate the Labour leader have to bite their tongue until after the election result.
    I don’t do Twitter but I notice Alan Dershowitz (who sometimes writes for The Guardian) has been posting the most hateful stuff about the UK. He’s even asking Trump to turn his back on Corbyn if he gets elected. From what I can see, there appears to be some really unpleasant, anti-British, xenophobic stuff coming from the Dershowitz supporters.
    One person wrote of Corbyn, “I hope London Bridge sealed his fate and he will go down in flames”.

  • Suhayl Saadi

    The bookies still predict a Tory victory. they’ve been more reliable than pollsters in recent elections. I think too that there is a big rump of people who simply do not take part in polls, who don’t tell anyone their political views, who vote Tory. I think it will be a big Tory victory. Maybe a 90-seat majority. Sadly. I hope I am totally wrong.

    • Shatnersrug

      Not on corbyn they haven’t – I’ve won 2 bets on him so far and due to their terrible odds it’s paid out quite nicely

    • SA

      The other type of bookies, currency dealers, are not so sure. Why are you so pessimistic. As Craig says the discussions have shown the reality of the Tory’s and May’s soft underbelly and exposed not only the lies of the government but also of the press. Hope your pessimism is misplaced.

  • Robert Crawford

    Do you ever see Pensioner’s mince or tatties or bread or milk in the Supermarket?
    The British State Pension is the lowest in the E.U. it is even lower than Mexico, and I bet you think Mexico is a financial basket case.

    I get my haircut for £4.50, pensioner discount, the barber charges £9.00 for everyone else.
    It costs me £27.00 to have my toenails cut, which takes about the same length of time as my haircut.

    Pensioners have to survive on much less than everyone else. While they have to pay the same price for essentials. Unfair.

  • Loony

    Voting Labour would appear to be a vote in favor of fantasy as opposed to reality.

    If Labour were to win then it follows that they would need more MP’s than they have at the moment. A good number of the MP’s they already have publicly loathe Corbyn. Will the numbers of Corbyn hating MP’s rise in the event of a Labour victory?

    Both Angela Eagle and Owen Smith are standing for re-election. Do you really think that people like this have any intention of supporting the kind of radical policies espoused by Corbyn?

    Maybe the British are confused. The UK is not the US – in the UK you vote for an MP, not for a Prime Minister, How confident can you be that any given MP will actually support the leader of the Party that you are voting for?

      • Loony

        You tell me – I was only copying from Labour Party publicity material.

        Here is one policy – guaranteed free parking in all NHS hospitals. Sounds great does it not. I know of a hospital within reasonable striking distance of an airport. It used to have free parking. People using the airport parked their cars in the hospital and took a taxi to the airport.

        In order to free up car parking space for actual patients the hospital needed to introduce parking charges and other measures to deal with long stay parking.

        • Xavi

          Free parking at hospitals..? I guess our perspectives on what constitutes radicalism just differ.

          • Loony

            Ah reading is sometimes so hard.

            I have no idea what constitutes a radical policy I merely copied the terminology from Labour Party publicity material.

            Free parking in hospitals is a Labour Party manifesto commitment. I have made no claim as to whether this constitutes a significant policy or a radical policy, merely that it is a policy.

            I have sought to explain that it is unlikely to work as advertised and in some cases will, based on historical fact, simply serve as a form of subsidy for vacationers. Do you want to subsidize people going on holiday? If so then you can cut out the NHS as middleman and just directly contribute to the cost of peoples vacations.

        • Steph

          You don’t see this as a good idea simply because you don’t want to! The problem of preventing ‘unauthorised’ parking is very easy indeed to overcome really, and I think you know that but are just being mischievous!

          • Loony

            I note that you don’t mention a mechanism to prevent “unauthorized” parking – which is odd given that you claim it be “very easy”

            Perhaps it is you that is being mischievous.

        • Steph

          Come on, supermarkets don’t seem to find it difficult. There are loads of ways that your visit could be validated, especially now we have number plate recognition. I know that you know that, so why are we having this discussion if not mischievousness (is that a word?) !!

        • Sharp Ears

          Perhaps Loony is not aware that hospital staff have to pay for parking to the tune of £400 pa. That is for a nurse who goes off shattered, officially at 8pm but more often 8.30 or even 9pm, who has had a 1% pay rise in 6 years.

          The surgeon who dealt with my wrist fracture six years ago, told me he came in on a Sunday to perform an emergency operation on a horse rider who had fallen and sustained open fractures. There was no room in the allotted area where he usually parked so he left his car elsewhere in his haste to attend the patient. He later found he had a £90 parking ticket. This from a cowboy firm who started off as taxi drivers and expanded into controlled parking. The estimated take for them at our local district general hospital is £4m pa. We cannot find out how much of that goes to the Trust/NHS. For my six weeks of daily radiotherapy, I forked out £120.

    • Ishmael

      It’s a field of struggle.

      Check out some of the very good Novara Media podcasts for what seems a wider perspective.

      A vote for reality is a vote to change nothing.

    • SA

      Those MPs will backtrack if Corbyn reverses the decline in labour fortunes since around 2008. After all they lost two elections before Corbyn was elected as leader so they would have no reason to oppose him for ditching Blairism.

      • J

        Rump Neu-Labour fall into line because at heart, they know who and what they’ve been aligned with. In their heads too, the success of their leader will count for more than the neo-liberal rhetoric they’ve grown used to.

  • John Goss

    I am proud to be one of the older generation who will be supporting Jeremy Corbyn on Thursday. Age has not wearied this 94 year old. I was brought up to respect my elders. Some I do and some I don’t. I respect this man not just because of his sound politics but because he articulates his opinions in the way of one who was taught to write properly.

    https://politicsmeanspolitics.com/election-diary-june-4th-todays-young-must-be-the-tide-to-raise-all-boats-f63ef8f1298a

      • Tony_0pmoc

        Shatnersrug, You should read John Goss’s link, then you will realise that John is not himself claiming to be 94 years old. “Harry Leslie Smith is a 94 year old survivor of the Great Depression, a 2nd Word War RAF veteran and an activist for social justice. He is the author of 5 books”

        • Shatnersrug

          Haha! Oh well, I thought he was a bit too keen of mind!

          Mind you, Kirk Douglas is still going at 101 and good old Dennis skinner at 84. God bless ’em (not that I’m a believer)

    • Robert Crawford

      Well done Mr Goss you obviously are made of finer stuff.

      Another 5 years of the Tories and we will all be eating grass.

    • Alistair Granham

      Thank you. That was very moving to read. And we need to remember that the country was almost bankrupt in 1945, but they still went ahead and gave all citizens the right to free healthcare. They did not allow arguments like ‘the magic money tree’ to dissuade them…..

  • Jo

    Watching QT involving Nicola Sturgeon. Sorry to go o/t but this is most biased audience yet. Two young guys from NI popped up earlier to slag her off, then a Welsh woman jumps in to say Scotland isn’t a country anyway. Meanwhile others are chipping in on all sorts, again negatively, from all over! Nothing on Labour, nothing on Tories…..all just slagging Sturgeon off. Where is the balance here?

    • Stu

      There seemed to be more people who supported internment than independence….

      The lowlight was probably an English Tory plant forgetting his education question and Robinson asking it for him.

      BBC News now 57 hours before the polls open and it’s unlikely we will see the leader of the opposition for more than 10 seconds….

      • Stu

        Well the BBC News at 10 showed about 5 seconds of Corbyn’s speech in Gateshead.

        We have heard less from the leader of the opposition than Cressida Dick, Lord Carlile and Justin Welby. What a democracy!

        • Alistair Granham

          Interestingly, I have not heard Jeremy Corbyn called “The Leader of the Opposition” on news reports during this campaign. But Theresa May is often called “The Prime Minister”.

      • Jo

        Hi Stu
        Yes I should have known when I saw Robinson how it would be. Really quite frustrating. It’s not that I think there aren’t tough questions to be asked. I just find the clear hostility from the off very unprofessional.
        Earlier I’d survived another joke of an interview by the almost whispering but seriously vicious Julie Etchingham of Nicola Sturgeon. Etchingham simply b—-ed throughout the whole thing! (Except when she referred to Sturgeon’s “amazing” marriage and asked what sort of things Peter did to help Nicola relax!. Sturgeon told her she wasn’t sure she should answer this. I mean, what an idiotic question!)
        Oh for balance!

  • Joan Coverley

    I hope you are right Craig. I want a large seat count for the SNP and a tiny space for Theresa May to work. Cameron couldn’t manage his right wing. Theresa May won’t be able to manage her left or right and she will have to ‘own’ her decisions and the decisions of coalition since 2010.

    Watching the debate tonight, it is clear to me that the strategy of the BBC and ITV is to capitalise on the ignorance of the populace and to make no distinction between devolved and retained matters.

    I am hoping that most of the ignorance is going to be confined to people who are not eligible to vote in Scotland, but I started reading a Guardian article of today set in Glasgow and it was clear that people did not differentiate between what the Scottish Government could do and what Westminster does. Let’s be clear, the MSM is learning to make the most of this. I cannot believe that all of these BBC top reporters are ignorant of the constitution, they are just happy to confuse the electorate. I cannot describe how angry this makes me.

    • Stu

      Remember that the Guardian article is filtered through Severin Carrell.

      The members of public he reports on are the ones who said exactly what he wants them to say.

  • Loony

    Anyone thinking that those in favor of Brexit are a simple repository of racism, and that the EU represents all that is pure and all that is good should take a look at the views of this gentleman.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40hhc0cjYyg

    You may note a number of things (i) He is Polish, (ii) he is speaking in the EU Parliament which means he is paid by the EU and (iii) he is elected which presumably means that his Polish electorate share his views.

      • Loony

        No – you are wrong, here are some racists in Poland

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evFj8xsgbo8

        Of course this could be a false flag and the people you are seeing are English racists that were bused in for the purposes of filming. Or maybe they are Polish people paid to do this kind of thing by reactionary English pensioners to confuse and mislead people as to the peace, love and harmony that is prevalent all over Europe.

    • SA

      The Poles are our staunch allies in the forefront of NATO defence. If you look at the EU as the civilian counterpart to NATO then you begin to understand many things.

    • SA

      To say that all racists voted for Brexit, and to say that Brexit has cynically been used by some for a racist agenda is not to say that all Brexiters are racist.

  • Loony

    How much better things would be if only vile English racists had not acted to stop liberal progressive people from living in happy harmony land with our tolerant and loving European neighbors all peacefully co-existing under the umbrella of boundless munificence provided by the EU.

    Yes you get to partner with people just like this – once again elected and all paid for by the EU.and oh so much better than racist English hard Brexiteers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YTe5YNHBQA

    Just look at the love and happiness on the faces of the women when the man ends his speech – so happy, so tolerant, so loving.

    • Ishmael

      The right have been pushing across the all the EU. The UK is more susceptible given geographics.

      • Loony

        Any claim that the UK is more susceptible to racism than the rest of the EU would seem itself to constitute a racist observation. Also a factually stupid observation given that Germany was once ruled by Hitler, Italy by Mussolini, Spain by Franco and Portugal by Salazar.

        I agree that Blair was probably worse than any of these – but he is gone and the British did not need outside military intervention to get rid of him and neither did they need to wait for him to die.

        • Ishmael

          I dont believe in race, or generalising under it’s rubric.

          But it’s a geographical fact if these islands location means that it’s more susceptible to isolationist, nationalist stuff. All things being equal. ….Which in the case or the rise of the 3rd reich was a specific set of circumstances and massive historical shifts. Hardly comparable to those that ape these things in the UK now.

          Are you “alt-right”? `because it’s the kind of odd disjointed reasoning id expect. I was referring to specific things happening now. In this historical context. Though the point stands by itself anyway ..

          & Yes there are parrells, yet Germany seems to have learned something from it’s past.

          • Loony

            I am not anything other than someone who is interested in rational analysis and seeking to derive rational conclusions.

            I agree that Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Salazar are all historical figures. And I am sure you would agree that they all arose in continental Europe and not the UK and they did so at a time when the geographical location of these islands was exactly the same as it is now,.

            If you are interested in the here and now then I have already provided video links to Polish MEP’s explaining why it is imperative that women earn less than men and why it is appropriate to refer to certain immigrants as “human garbage” You do not find this kind of language or these kind of ideas enunciated by any UK politician.

            I observe no public demand to discriminate against women and the people of the UK seems remarkably tolerant. I have also provided a video of widespread civil disturbances on Elk after a Pole was stabbed by an immigrant. Any death or injury is sad but this was hardly on the scale of what happened in London or Manchester.

            The UK is not perfect and there are many, many things wrong with it but it is not racist to the same level that exists in many parts of mainland Europe. In France an openly Fascist candidate received over 30$ of the popular vote. This would not happen in the UK.

            Maybe people are so keen to besmirch the population of the UK simply in order to provide misdirection and take attention away from the manifest crimes committed by the criminal classes that claim nominal leadership roles.

        • Ishmael

          ps

          “vile English racists”

          Seems to me you where more racially stereotyping.

    • Loony

      That is one way of looking at things.

      Another way would be to hang your head in shame because you are too lazy, idle and supine to actually do your job, Therefore the President of the United States will do it for you.

      Are you seriously suggesting that in the immediate aftermath of dozens of people have been run over and/or stabbed by psychotic lunatics (but by psychotic lunatics with a fan base – the precise numbers of which the British simply can’t be bothered to determine) that it was appropriate for the Mayor of London to opine that “there is no reason to be alarmed”

      • James Dickenson

        ‘ that it was appropriate for the Mayor of London to opine that “there is no reason to be alarmed” ‘
        Context?

      • nevermind

        Why should we be alarmed, these terror attacks seem to have a great attractant in Mrs. may and she was virtually rejuvenated by not having any questions to answer, by being able to talk tough.

        And the BBC is talking terror, talking terror talking terror, blah blah blah and blah again, self serving cap duffers talking terror, please sir if I talk a littler bit more about terror can I get another franchise, blah blah.

        And then the election is over and nothing happens on tall of this hot air wasting good airtime to hear about policies.
        Thing is the BBC is the Tory/establishment safety net, they will jump to the party of the day like a good old dependent and they love the status quo so hence, bring on another trillion of debts, bring on a few terror attacks during Brexit, it might just arouse feelings of pity in the EU negotiators, they might say, give her a better deal.

        ‘aaahhh you poor terror afflicted, would you like to sell some more property to these terror sponsors you sell arms and death to?before you walk away from what has sustained you for 40 years?’

        The BBC is cowering behind terror, anxious not to loose its franchise and to please the establishment during all this poll busting performance of Labour, what a pathetic bunch of self serving slaves.

        join them Loony , they’d love you.

        Trump should shut up and mind his very own business, what is it to him what happens in London, has he not got enough trouble with in his own country? a racist police force and a polarised country that will polarise further.

        As for Mr. Khan, enjoy your mayoral stint, you will be hounded down like Corbyn has been for two years and they will make you loose, for you have offended the hand holder of St. Theresa, the great white oaf who rules ueber alles, incl. London.

        You have to admit that it is Mrs. May who is courting the terror sponsors and she did it just before the elections, her elation and relief at having got what she wanted from them is reverberating in in every word she has granted the BBC during the last five days.

  • Manda

    “The victory of this election is that those popular views have been expressed widely, after years of being banished methodically from the airwaves.”

    So true. It feels so good the walls have been breached and the trickle of hope for the future is becoming a flood. The phantom ogre created by Corbyn’s opponents and the media is fading fast and the true image of a committed, caring man of immense strength of character is being revealed..

  • Alan

    You continue with the ageism again, Murray! You think us pensioners don’t have children, and grandchildren that are being hit by the Tory cuts? You think us pensioners don’t notice how hard it is to get an appointment with our GP? You think we don’t see how the Tories have destroyed the NHS, but are totally willing to spend millions on cruise missiles. I bought my first house at age 24 on a ten year mortgage; my daughter bought a house on a mortgage that she’ll be paying until she’s about eighty; my son and my youngest daughter can only dream of buying a house.

    You are so full of shit Murray! You read some stupid poll and you think it must be right. You’re as bad as the fucking Guardian! You bitch about “racism” and “Islamophobia”, but you are completely ready to trash the pensioners. Hey, age comes to us all Murrray, along with the health problems involved! There is no escape for you, or all your ageist acolytes.

    • Alan

      You think we don’t see the people living in tents around our cities? You think we don’t see the beggars on our streets, many of them ex-service personnel? You think we don’t have some of our own relatives who now suffer Gulf-War Syndrome because they joined the RAF when they were young and stupid?

      Keerist Murray, who the hell are you to sit in judgement on everybody else; the great IAM: the great iconoclast?

  • Ishmael

    ‘The melancholy cries across the flatlands of planet earth have been heard & are being answered…All across the universe’

    The The 12″ cover.

  • Tom74

    Interesting analysis, Craig. I’m not quite so optimistic, as I feel the smear campaign against Corbyn by the newspapers; the two terrorist attacks (which of course will never be properly explained despite all the present sound and fury in the media); and Trump’s remarks about Khan reveal that the Tories/establishment (basically the same thing) and their various foreign backers will stop at nothing to keep them in power.
    This has been the way all my adult life, with every single Labour leader except Blair (and indeed every significant non-Tory politician) smeared and derided so they cannot win an election. It will be exactly the same in 2020, with new excuses for the Tories and perhaps a new leader, while the opposition leaders will inevitably be ‘weird’, ‘left-wing’, ‘unelectable’, ‘a threat to national security’ etc etc.
    I don’t think elections will be real change, as our ‘democracy’ is set up to prevent it. The only change will come with economic or political collapse, which none of us want – but which, ironically, may be on its way with Brexit.

    • Ishmael

      I don’t think it’s optimism he’s expressing. It has been “this way” for a lot longer than that in a certain light. Yet much has improved over history.

      I agree elections aren’t a big change in themsevles, that fit’s in with the point also. i.e. “already”..

      Our democracy is us, we do and have changed it. Along with struggles around the world helping, The UK is a very small island.

  • Hieroglyph

    I am pondering the scenario whereby Blair instructs his oily minions to prop up May. Not sure how this would work. Presumably they wouldn’t form an actual coalition, merely confidence and supply. Corbyn can’t kick them out, due to their stranglehold over the NEC, so we would have a de-facto coalition which refuses to admit it’s a coalition. Unusual, to say the least.

    This leaves an interesting ethical question for Nu Lab drones. Should they swallow their pride, and accept Government perks and power, at the cost of supporting Corbyn in a minority Government? Or should they carry on their tribal war against Corbyn, and harry from the field? You would assume they would always take the money, but they do appear to be dangerously close to being neoliberal ideologues, and you never can quite tell with those loons.

    What I know is this: like Clinton, they won’t just go away. So, new rules around pre-selection must be high on JC’s agenda. I don’t particularly care about candidates being local – local councils are notoriously corrupt – but parachuting in some ‘high flyer’ is not the answer, as most of them are basically a bit thick. Hopefully, they’ll all answer the call of Sauron like the good like orcs they are, and join Blair in his new fascist party. Then Corbyn can order the troops out to mow them down like the fascist dogs they are.

    Oh ok, not the last part. But the rest could happen.

    • Shatnersrug

      I don’t think you should underestimate the power of prime minister. These Blairites are all suck asses they only suck up to Blair because they thought he was the realpolitik way, if JC makes PM then they’ll be sucking up to him.

    • philw

      As I posted above, I think it is quite possible that the Blairites will split from the Labour Party. This is not because they are following orders from Blair – it doesn’t work like that – but because they are in their marrow red tories, ideologically closer to the Tory party than a Corbynite Labour Party. And they are highly integrated into the neoliberal establishment.

      Many would think nothing of being elected on a Labour ticket, then deserting soon after the election. Listen carefully to how somone like Ben Bradshaw responds to questions, or more blatantly Sadiq Khan as was pointed out above.

      This is not a ‘Gang of Four’ situation like 83. I could see all the Blairites joining a new party – even equivocators like Burnham. They would have the support of the Guardian and all the MSM.

      • Shatnersrug

        No theyre really not that strong, they are unpopular parachuted MPs I would imagine a fair few will stand down.

      • Michael McNulty

        It’s possible they see how strong Jeremy is and that he may actually take the election, which would then enable fresh attacks on him to bring him down once he’s the Prime Minister. Even outrageous lies would serve them with apologies issues later, with wealthy backers offering to pay libel costs. That way they take No.10 from him not just Leader of the Opposition, which gives them far more power than being a sniveling toady to Tory plans gives them.

        I think Jeremy has the support to win but I fear it will not be an honest election and they plan to steal it.

  • Dave

    Its a dilemma because Corbyn refusal to reduce immigration is insane, but May wont deliver on a sane promise to do so, due her insane support for war that fuels the migrant crisis, but Corbyn’s opposition to war is sane and will reduce the number of immigrants. May says she will deliver Brexit, but she put that at risk by calling a Brexit General Election when there was no need to do so, presumably to crush Corbyn on behalf of the globalists and push for WWIII with an increased majority. So a small conservative win would secure Brexit and Corbyn’s leadership and thus avoid WWIII, but on the other hand a Labour win if secured on a promise of voting reform would also do the same, but allow for a democratic reformation of UK following Brexit.

    but Corbyn’s opposition to war is sane, as it has fuelled a migrant crisis, but May’s support for war will make things worse. So they are both in practice as bad on immigration as the other.

    • craig Post author

      Dave,

      Proving my point that Brexiteers are irrationally motivated at base purely by a racist desire to reduce immigration, whatever the consequences. I have never, ever discussed with a Brexiteer whose motivation was not at base racist.

      • Dave

        No, rationally concerned, among other things, about the social and economic impact of continuing mass-immigration. Indeed if the numbers entering England had entered Scotland I think you would find, no doubt to your dismay, but according to your definition of the word, that all Scots would be racists too. I’m sure you are sincere and I enjoy reading your informative posts, but just to remove any doubt, please can you confirm you leave your front door open when you go out, or do you operate front door immigration controls, by keeping it shut?

      • Ba'al Zevul

        Brexiteers are irrationally motivated at base purely by a racist desire to reduce immigration, whatever the consequences.

        Well, of course, if you put it like that…there’s no room at all for shades of opinion in the Leave camp, is there? Excuse me a moment while I go and check our stock of Zyklon-B…

        Now, if we’re irrational, and you’re rational, (for the sake of discussion and ignoring your occasional outbursts of emotion) would you please outline for us fascist racists the logical argument which leads you to endorse unrestricted immigration unaccompanied by any encouragement of the immigrants to integrate with the pre-existing cultural and social norms? Please include in your reply an attempt to justify the importation of cheap labour from even poorer countries to a country which is already in economic dire straits and which maintains a pool of unemployed natives as an intentional component of its labour market.

        • SA

          My view is this: most racists are brexiters but it does not follow that all brexiters are racist. The problem is that now the Tories have been increasing weaponising this debate to cater more for the racists. I agree with you that the brain drain part is an aspect of immigration that is clearly avoided even by left wing commentators and is an important one. The NHS for one could not recruit sufficient doctors and nurses from those trained in this country and is heavily reliant on importing readily trained staff from developing as well as EU countries to cope.This is a real conundrum for the progressive left and must be addressed by adequate training locally as well as an ethical overseas policy which develops countries locally rather than asset stripping.

          • craig Post author

            In practice all racists are Brexiteers, within the limits of statistical significance. It does not follow that all Brexiteers are racist. This is true in terms of logic. But while it does not follow, it also does not follow that all Brexiteers are NOT racists. And it so happens that every time I have pushed one, reducing immigration proves to be their primary motivation.

          • defo

            Advocating reducing immigration doesn’t make one a racist. Utterly preposterous to say it does.
            What SA said. Yes, not all brexiteers are. (I’m a remainer, with caveats btw)
            Even on a pedantic level, what we have seen since free movement, is large amounts of white people choosing to make the UK their home. White on white racism ?
            How has free movement worked out ? Generally, Fine & dandy for those with, badly for those without. The unskilled native young have fared the worst.

          • Ba'al Zevul

            every time I have pushed one, reducing immigration proves to be their primary motivation.

            You will no doubt take my specific reponse to your repeated slur as confirmation of your assertion. But if you frame your complaint in terms of the immigration issue, you must expect it to be addressed in the same terms. With that cleared up, I hope you will now oblige me with your rational argument.

            all racists are Brexiteers, within the limits of statistical significance.

            Details of the properly structured survey on which this is based would be welcome. Including the questions asked.
            What was the null hypothesis?

          • Ba'al Zevul

            Oh, nearly forgot. As the significance threshold (alpha) is chosen by the researcher, and is not the same for all applications, it’s necessary to state this when describing a result as statistically significant

          • fred

            Surely what is racist is having different immigration rules for people from different countries. Either abolish the rules entirely or have them the same for all. Immigration rules based on where someone was born is discrimination.

          • Geoffrey

            I am sure we all agree at least that the disgusting Brits that pollute the Iberian Peninsular and other sunny parts of southern Europe should be sent home, even if it were to crash the Spanish and Portuguese economies.

          • Soothmoother

            Apparently, the economy needs migrants. If the economy didn’t need migrants, would you stop them coming? If the only reason for allowing mass immigration is economic then that presumably makes you a racist.

          • SA

            I think there are genuine concerns about the EU that have nothing to do with immigration, the 30% that Corbyn mentioned during the referendum. One of these is that the EU became a sort of civilian wing of NATO and was used to entice countries that were really not ready to join the EU but were needed to expand NATO to the borders of the USSR. Now I am sure that many will not agree with me but at least this is another way of looking at where the EU project went wrong. I have personally had a great struggle during referendum and ended up voting remain despite all the imperfections of the EU. I hasten to add, I am not racist.

          • SA

            And actually the SNP may become unstuck because of this point and may find that if there is independence that they will face hostility from NATO if they try to get rid of Trident as I am sure this is a NATO asset which it would not like to get rid of.

      • philw

        Craig – “Dave,

        Proving my point that Brexiteers are irrationally motivated at base purely by a racist desire to reduce immigration, whatever the consequences. I have never, ever discussed with a Brexiteer whose motivation was not at base racist.”

        You generalise from ONE persons comment to ALL brexiters! -Astonishing!

        From my experience I would say that would be because you refuse to discuss with any Brexiteer whose motivation is not at base racist.

        I cant really claim to be a Brexiter (I abstained). I do however have sympathy for some Brexiters. Firstly, not all Brexiters want to reduce immigration. Secondly those that do are not all racists. The concern is not in itself racist. I do not wish to reduce immigration. I think we can cope with current levels (or could if resources were well directed). On the other hand I think any great expansion of immigration would bring problems. The trouble is the issues are not examined in a clear-headed and rational way, so it is very difficult to come to a conclusion.

        What is indisputable is that immigration must be controlled by which I do NOT mean reduced – just that there must be limits.

        Why is it so hard to state this and re-assure those worried about immigration that we are not campaigning for open entry for all? By refusing to discuss the issue anti-racists leave the field open to those who are only too keen to discuss it.

        • Michael McNulty

          Another major reason for employers to welcome immigration is not just to undercut wages because there’s a surplus of labour but it means they don’t have to pay to train their own workforce. It also means when taking professionals like doctors from abroad it’s typically their own government abroad which paid for their training, and consequently British employers can demand lower taxes which used to go into further education and universities.

          People like employers who call Brexiteers racists are exploiters of people and their accusations of racism are just further exploitation. Now that’s racist. Especially so as they particularly get them here to pay them less.

          • J

            That’s a good argument, one which is seldom made by MSM.

            Call it what it is, another transfer of wealth from the poor to the wealthy. Importing health workers and clinicians from Poland for example is essentially a subsidy by Polish taxpayers for corporations like Google/Shell/Facebook/Amazon/Apple/Lloyds/AstraZeneca/HSBC.

            Another side to that equation is that although the UK government is handing foreign taxpayers investment directly to corporations, they also subsidise private agencies who benefit most from the comparatively enormous cost of agency health care workers. Who owns those agencies I wonder?

            This sucking of ever more resources out of the NHS allows them to point to the ‘drain in resources’ as further proof of the need for ‘reform’ (read privatisation) in other words to close hospitals as surplus to requirements in order to sell them off cheap to be run by other friends and family at exorbitant cost to the end user.

            Can you imagine a more ‘viscous cycle’?

            It’s not a new thing. Didn’t Marples’ and Beeching’s families and friends have stakes in road building and road haulage before the famous Beeching cuts? Same story, same families, same party, different bunch of bastards.

      • MJ

        “I have never, ever discussed with a Brexiteer whose motivation was not at base racist”

        You ought to get out more.

    • Shatnersrug

      Dave can you give me a 5 points about immigration you don’t like.

      I don’t think it’s helpful to brandish anyone a racist. People’s concerns are different and informed by their life experiences to to stick them into the same basket as the old white minority South Africans does no one any favours and makes Craig look like the Guardian urban Liberals he so hates.

      On the door step I have found that people have all sorts of reasons not to approve of immigration

      But the number one reason seems to me that people have been given a lot of incorrect information with which to make judgements on. I’d also say this – though immigration may be considered a large concern with many folk they don’t hold these views particularly deeply – I’ve found that presented with a different argument most change their mind pretty quickly and I’d also say that the election is not very important to most people.

      If immigration is a 60% concern from the most ardent thinker then the election has an importance of a 15 % of their world view – 60% of 15% is a small niggle it’s not a defining characteristic. If I were to do what craig does and call them racist I wouldn’t get very far would I – the amount of Corbyn doorstep converts we’ve seen has been incredible – ones that harbours these views on immigration have not put them on the back burner when presented with the idea of proper economic investment.

      Please let’s dispense with call people racists it’s childish and it doesn’t even begin to understand individual life experience.

      • Shatnersrug

        That sohoyld read “have put them on the back burner not have not”

        • Dave

          All very interesting but misconstrued because its actually anti-racist to oppose mass-immigration, or put another way its the proponents of mass-immigration who are racist against the native population. Consider a large number of people want to enter your home and you are denounced by whomever as racist for not letting them in, or is this denouncement more accurately a form of racism to intimidate and criminalise the homeowner for not letting them in.

          • J

            Native population?

            Is it just the national border for you? I mean, do you oppose people having the opportunity to move from one part of a town to another? One village to another? Do you oppose cities for example, people moving to cities to work? From one shire to another? Do you oppose Welsh people whose first language is Welsh moving from Wales to England or vice versa? Would you oppose an Englishman moving to Australia or America? Would you oppose a Pole moving to Australia or America?

            Where exactly is you opposition?

  • defo

    defo says:
    6 June, 2017 at 8:25 am
    Well done BBC Mishal Husain. Credit, where it’s due.
    BJ the clown put firmly in his place re the terrrrr attack.
    He’s defecting away like crazy, and she’s having none of it.
    BJ is floundering.
    Well f me, I do believe Auntie may be changing her allegiances !

  • David Scott

    Thank you for putting into words what I’ve felt for a long time.Why on earth people still vote Tory I’ll never know, it makes me despair. They’ve lied and lied and lied and yet people still vote for them. this time I’m hoping for the spirit of ’45.

    • frankywiggles

      I asked the question on here yesterday: what credible reason is left for elderly people to vote Tory? Predictably, no reason was provided, because there isn’t one that can withstand the slightest scrutiny.

      • Ishmael

        It’s in attitude. Those youngn’s running around. Need teaching a good old Tory lesson, law and order. etc etc.

        The Tory attitude has always been one of right wing pompous high handedness. Like a lot of older people who imagine others know nothing about the world etc, even if they clearly do while they have done little but brainwash themselves in front of the TV all their lives. They should be respected…It’s perhaps like brexit, a way of asserting ones identity no matter the quality of substance. Like getting in a fight

        I do respect older people on principle. But like many people the primary care seems to be learning nothing, telling others, and being generally selfish. Acting like life itself owes something. Especially is they vote Tory. The right is just so easy, it’s an old man shouting, imagining good old days that were largely horrific.

        • frankywiggles

          You may be onto something there, Ishmael, cos if they took even a cursory glance at May’s record and manifesto they’d throw her out on her ear.

      • Loony

        There are many reasons for voting for any political party – it just depends on an individuals perspective. There is a trend to dismiss all people that disagree with your personal view (whoever you may be) as evil or fascist or racist. Most disturbingly this trend is being actively encouraged by those who should know better.

        If you want to live under the rule of law then there is no reason to vote for anyone as no political party has any intention of providing equality under the law. Indeed they all have exactly the opposite intention.

        Looking at more trivial matters.

        The Labour Party wants to raise the minimum wage. All people that think this is a good idea will presumably vote Labour. People that do not think it is a good idea will presumably vote for someone else.

        There is no universally agreed view as to the effect of raising the minimum wage. Perhaps it makes wage earners more prosperous or perhaps it destroys jobs – or perhaps it does both in combination. Given that there is no methodology available to conclusively prove the effects of raising the minimum wage people must exercise their individual judgement.

        What is wrong with that?

        • frankywiggles

          People’s individual judgement? There’s never been an independent, evidence-based study that has revealed widespread job loss resulting from a rise in the minimum wage. It’s just another example of rightwing justification for selfishness that sounds moral and principled, but hasnt any basis in fact.

          • Loony

            There you go – No one has claimed the contrary, so all you doing is arguing with yourself which is a peculiar form of onanism.

            There is some evidence from Washington State that raising the minimum wage destroys jobs – but that too is not conclusive evidence.

            The whole point is that there is no known methodology that allows for a conclusive answer to be derived. Therefore it is left to the judgement of the individual.

            Just because someone reaches a different conclusion to you does not of itself make them right wing or selfish. It does mean that they operating absent a provable hypothesis but it also means that your opinion has also been formed absent the support of a provable hypothesis.

        • Salford Lad

          @ Loony
          We live in an economic period of debt deflation.That is people have little disposable income left ,having paid out for mortgages ,car loans, utilities and food.
          The means to battle deflation is to inject more money into the economy, either by Govt investment in infrastructure building or in this case by increasing the minimum wage,
          More money in circulation ,means more disposable income ,means more spending ,means more goods need to be produced,means more jobs. means more taxes to be collected ,means a buoyant economy.

    • reel guid

      The Scottish Tories seem to be sending out as much election literature as all the other parties combined. And, as with the 2016 election campaign, in this year’s campaigns all their activists – in Tory social media pics – are kitted out in these fairly good quality blue rainjackets. Which they must have been given for free by the party.

      No amount of party donations can make Tory policies popular with the majority of Scots though. Forced exit of Scotland from the EU, drastic welfare and public services cuts and Trident renewal.

      Then there is the ample evidence of widespread racism and sectarianism in the Scottish Tories and the baleful effect that is having on Scottish society.

      They can spend a lot of money making themselves look good. They can post as many selfies of grinning canvassers as they like. They are simply a blight on Scotland.

    • defo

      Holding their noses, but a logical stance if you want rid of the reptiles party. ‘Scottish’ Labour are done. A farce, in two acts.
      They’ll be back on the attack, with Severin doing the SNP BAD thing come Friday.

  • Clydebuilt

    Nicola Sturgeon was featured on three interviews last night ……

    ITV /STV 8.00 to 8.15 Pre recorded
    BBC1. 9.30 to 10.00. (Live From Edinburgh)
    STV. 10.40 to 11.00. (Live STV Glasgow)

    Sturgeon was tired for the last interview with Bernard Ponsonby. Very tired at the beginning. He managed to harangue her hardly letting her finish an answer.

    many viewers would be put off by so much exposure on one night and switch channels.

    Tonight STV are broadcasting their Scottish Leaders debate.

    This happened at the last G.E.

    Nb. Yesterday BBC Radio Scotland held Their leaders interview on the Call Kaye phone in so Sturgeon . Was supposed to show up for that ….. Stewart Hosie stood in for her.

    When was the last major interview of Corbyn or May.

    • defo

      She was busy when Arch Yoon Kaye was on, having her character attacked by Jane Garvie on Womans Hr.

  • Ishmael

    I am not anything other than someone who is interested ..In why the reply button does not appear on some posts.

    And atm (side note) why the Government don’t put more horrific health warnings on Cars than cigarettes.

    • Ishmael

      CARS. …KILLING ALL LIFE ON EARTH.

      Turning people into pompous detached unthinking killers of others, while imagining themselves better as a result…

      • fred

        Ishmael more people died because of road accidents in Britain before the invention of the motor car than after.

        In 1926, the first year they published statistics, there were 1,715,000 motor vehicles registered and 4,886 road fatalities, In 1997 there were 26,974,000 motor vehicles and only 3,599.fatalities. By 2016 the number of fatalities was down to 1,810 from 36,700,000 motor vehicles.

    • Aim Here

      There’s a cap on the number of nested replies (partly to deter people having long-drawn out conversions between only two people, and partly because it makes formatting the site’s html easier).

  • J

    It seems that the only weapon this country now has against those who represent the combined corporate war machine is to get rid of their televisions and cease to fund it’s main corporate mouthpiece by paying the licence fee.

    • Ishmael

      Totally agree, iv been doing that since the invasion.

      The problem is like some people on this site, by opposing in a certain way you end up holding them up. BBC this, BBC that etc.

      Don’t own a tv, have more £, And a more clear heart. …I’ll soon be supporting more my favourite chosen online outlets.

      • J

        The only long term strategic response to their power is to make them an irrelevance.

      • J

        I should add that the only way to make the BBC irrelevant is to make television irrelevant. Watching television is intimately tied in to the licence fee which helps enormously because when you get rid of the BBC from your life, you also get rid of television, you get rid of the whole edifice. Simply switching channels as in most other countries merely ensures that only big centralised and essentially corporate voices can enter the ring, only those with the massive resources necessary to run a television station have any voice.

        To stop paying the licence fee is to stop funding the whole circus in the short term. What happens after that is up to us.

        • Ishmael

          Your the man J. Or woman.

          And It is happening. Slowly but surly.

          I was listening to Novara yesterday about how we also need a media for the elderly. I agree, One that can replace to goto for many who are IMO abused by the TV. Manipulated, made afraid. Awful way to treat people in later life.

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