Most of the states existing in the world – including pretty well all of Africa bar Ethiopia, much of Asia, and the former Soviet Union – achieved independence in my own lifetime. In virtually every case, it was – almost by definition – illegal at the start of the process for the country to break away. All of the most famous liberation campaigners did jail time. Within the European Union, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia did not obtain Independence by a process negotiated from the start with the Soviet Union. The actions which initiated their Independence were illegal.
So it is a meaningless truism to say that it is illegal for Catalonia to hold a referendum on Independence. The idea that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements, is rejected by international law. It is truly pathetic to see the Establishment throughout Europe hiding behind the miniscule fig leaf of the Spanish Constitutional Court to state that Catalonia cannot secede, and therefore the gross repression in train by the Spanish government is legitimate. The argument that the post-Franco settlement perpetually alienates the Catalan right to self-determination is, frankly, risible. It is simply embarrassing to see media outlets that once had some intellectual capacity, such as the Economist and the Financial Times, fall in behind it.
But the desire of Western governments to accept the brutal muscling aside of democracy in Catalonia by Madrid’s Francoist government, tells us something about the level of insecurity the Establishment feels. Scottish nationalists like myself have an instinctive sympathy for a similar movement in one of Europe’s other ancient nations. But in truth, there are serious differences. The Yes movement in Scotland is essentially socialist and is broadly looking to substantial economic and social reform to be initiated after Independence to create a more communitarian society. The Catalan movement is coming from a different place; of course it contains divers elements, but there is much less challenge to neo-liberalism in it. In fact there is a significant rather unattractive streak in popular Catalan nationalism that feels they are being held back by much lazier and less productive societies in the South. Catalan Independence is not really a threat to neo-liberalism. Yet, so insecure do the Establishment feel about their position in this time of rational popular discontent, any change is to be resisted.
The silence of the international community and the Establishment’s NGO’s on the repression of democracy in Catalonia is shameful.
I am currently in Ghana, and there is in West Africa a liberation movement which is even less fashionable, an oppressed people whose cause nobody espouses – the Anglophone Cameroonians. This week several hundred young men in South West Cameroon have been arrested and taken away by security forces, with real brutality in many cases. I wrote in The Catholic Orangemen of Togo about the torture, discrimination and deprivation of liberty suffered by the Anglophone Cameroonians over decades, about my own visit there and my thwarted determination to focus the FCO on the issue.
Very occasionally, NGO’s pay limited attention to this injustice. The International Bar Association protested against the arrest of a barrister, Agbor-Balla, who was charged with terrorism before a military tribunal for helping organise a human rights demonstration. He was released last month after six months harsh imprisonment, together with other community leaders, but a much larger wave of arrests is now under way, aimed at preventing a pro-Independence demonstration by Anglophone Cameroonians this weekend. There is, of course, an obvious parallel with events the same weekend in Catalonia.
Why has the international community ignored the plight of the Anglophone Cameroonians? Well the UK, as the former colonial power, finds the whole subject embarrassing and has no interest at all in interfering. African governments are notoriously unwilling to call each other out on human rights abuse. Plus the entire colonial legacy of the divide between Anglophone and Francophone West Africa is a neuralgic point in the region, affecting many relationships between rulers and states. Persecution of an Anglophone minority by a Francophone government is an issue that, if raised within the remit of the regional organisation, ECOWAS, would cause a very large can of worms to be opened. Without any powerful voices speaking up for the Anglophone Cameroonians, the United Nations is under no pressure to be involved.
Let me know of any good websites with inside information on events in Catalonia, as we will not get a true picture from mainstream media. I will try and get you a clear picture of the events in Cameroon this coming weekend.
————————————————————-
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Yes, a large part of the drive for Catalan independence is to emancipate a rich region from helping poor ones. These are not the republicans of the Spanish civil war fronting up Franco.
I entirely agree and that point has been made clear by various proponents of Catalan independence over the years.
An understandable urge but hardly a laudable one I should have thought. Does it not remind one of the motives behind the various Northern Italian separatist movements, in all of which a rather ugly nationalism is more than evident?
There are parallels with the Lega Nord but Catalan independence has been largely free of the right wing neo fascist elements of the Lega and is much more cosmopolitan and not xenophobic. They have for eg been fighting with Madrid for the right to bring in and support many more refugees and asylum seekers.
So there are important differences to how the Catalans have pursued their aims in comparison with the Lega.
The thing that ties it in with Cameroon and also Quebec is the language issue. Madrid is against Catalan language immersion schools while the Catalans fear their language will be squashed and marginalised by remaining in Spain.
Language played virtually no role in the IndyRef as in issue other than redneck elements of No reheating complaints about the sums spent on Gaelic support. The UK, having signed up to the EU program on minority languages has been pretty good at supporting them here.
Which is not to say that post Independence there is nothing for the SNP to do in the area. There is the thorny issue of Scots and Doric as well as Gaelic.
“They have for eg been fighting with Madrid for the right to bring in and support many more refugees and asylum seekers.”
_______________________________
This “fight” is more a paper and political fight than a real one – it is a case of “heads I win, tails you lose”.
Why so? Because of the following two elements: 1/. The matter enables Catalan authorities to look good in comparison with the heartless (I’m writing ironically) government in Madrid, and 2/. as the Catalan authorities have no status in matters of immigration and asylum, there is no risk that they will ever be in a position where they would have to put their money where their mouth is.
==================
“Madrid is against Catalan language immersion schools while the Catalans fear their language will be squashed and marginalised by remaining in Spain.”
_____________________
That is nonsense. As in Belgium, language is being used as a tool for political ends by mocal politicians and the more excitable elements of the population.
This is because the discrimination against the Catalan language is a matter of the distant past. Quite to the contrary, it is the non-Catalan speakers who are discriminated against in 2017 Catalonia. The Catalan language, far from being “squashed” or “marginalised”, is flourishing – and this in a unitary Spain.
Please do not spread fake news on this blog, there’s already enough of it elsewhere.
Xavi – you are correct, although you seem to have overlooked the desire to be emancipated from the consequences of corruption,
https://preview.ibb.co/irNDvb/fotonoticia_20170112130949_800.jpg
‘a large part of the drive for Catalan independence is to emancipate a rich region from helping poor ones’
I dont think that’s fair. Economic factors became important drivers since the economic crisis, when the system of financing Spain’s regions was revealed for what it is: incredibly unbalanced and in times of crisis, not fit for purpose. So many individuals and businesses were wiped out in Catalonia and Madrid by drastic cuts, while other regions were hardly affected. The result has been the growth of Podemos and of the independence movement becoming mainstream in Catalonia. Central government tries to take credit for bailing out the regions, whereas in fact it ring-fences the resources it desires and lends regions some of their own money back charging interest.
As does the Westminster Parliament.
“Why has the international community ignored the plight of the Anglophone Cameroonians? Well the UK, as the former colonial power, finds the whole subject embarrassing and has no interest at all in interfering. ”
_______________________________
Please share your thoughts on the role and responsibility of France “as the former colonial power” and on whether France (whose post-colonial influence in Cameroon is somewhat greater than the UK’s) also finds the whole subject embarrassing and has no interest in interfering…….
Why the selectivity of criticism?
Obviously the UK was the former colonial power in Anglophone Cameroon, and France in Francophone.
You are right to call me out in omitting to mention France. The truth is that for me total French disregard for human rights in Africa, and the corrupt links between the French and Francophone African Establishments, are so much part of the background I work with that they don’t have to be mentioned. Ca va sans dire. The French do nothing because of their corrupt links with Biya.
With knowledgeable journalists like Finian Cunningham and Andrew Korybko writing for it this is one source I would recommend though doubt because of its name it would slip easily into the Murray pigeonhole. 🙂
https://sputniknews.com/world/201709271057732007-russia-denies-allegations-involvement-catalan-referendum/
Meanwhile there has been a release from Julian Assange defining where the big problem lies worldwide. Thought I would link it since you are abroad.
https://popularresistance.org/assange-real-threat-to-us-is-not-russia-but-israel/
On the last thread you were saying “The problem is a big problem. It sits above governments and international organisations.” to the same link to what Assange says. Assange appears to be saying that the problem is the state of Israel – you are saying it is something above a government? You cannot both be right unless you are using the same dog whistle.
I suspect that Catalan independence will be the next Brexit/Trump. This would produce a scenario where the Catalans vote for independence and then it will slowly slide its way down the pan as people realise what it means. An independent Catalonia would have to leave the EU and how is that going to work with the nature of the Catalonia/Spain border?
I’m not saying that Catalonia shouldn’t be independent, but unfortunately they would need the support of the EU in order to achieve it without total chaos ensuing.
I am fully convinced that de facto Spain could not prevent Catalonia’s continuing membership of the EU. The EU is not going to support the forcible removal of EU citizenship from the Catalonians, and it is the Spanish economy that would suffer most anyway.
The problem here, surely, is that there are no precedents: the break-up of Czechoslovakia occurred before the two successor states applied for EU membership.
I think it is unarguable that if a part of an existing EU Member State breaks away and achieves independence, it becomes a “third country” ; the fact that the break-away state was applying the acquis communautaire at the moment of secession does not change that fact.
Therefore, the newly independent state would have to apply for re-admission. Now, the ingenuity of EU lawyers is without limits and one may be confident that technical and constitutional ways could/would be found to shorten (perhaps very considerably) the usual length of the accession process.
The political position of the rGovernments might be a rather different matter given that the accession to the EU of a third country is a matter for unanimity. What one can say at the moment is that the expression “the forcible removal of EU citiizenship from the Catalans” is tendentious in that the Catalans will have removed themselves from EU citizenship (owing to their decision to become a third country), bot the other way round.
Bravo! Whilst an independent Catalonia would have MEPs they wouldn’t have a Commissioner or a member of the Council. Of course an article 49 procedure may not take as long as normal.
On Catalonia:
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/09/wall-street-city-london-getting-nervous-catalonia.html
“Most of the states existing in the world – including pretty well all of Africa bar Ethiopia, much of Asia, and the former Soviet Union – achieved independence in my own lifetime. In virtually every case, it was – almost by definition – illegal at the start of the process for the country to break away.”
_________________________
Not too sure about the “illegality” aspect and even less sure about the relevance to the question of Catalonia.
Let’s face it – the creation of the majority of the present day countries of Africa and Asia was due to a process of decolonialisation which did not involve “illegality” on the part of the breakaway states and which was carried out constitutionally.
It is otiose to compare the break-up of colonial empires – the British, the French, the Soviet… – with the break-up of unitary states such as Czechoslovakia, Pakistan (the case of Bangladesh) and, potentially, the UK and Spain. Unless of course one were to consider Spain, the UK, Czechoslovakia and Pakistan to themselves be mini-empires (I assume no one would seriously make that claim).
No, the process was eventually legalised just as Catalonia’s independence will be, but the liberation struggles virtually all started “illegally”. Gandhi’s history is a fairly typical example of illegal pro-Independence process eventually legalised,
What about the Kurds in Iraq, and the reaction to their recent ‘illegal’ independence referendum – talk of the army being mobilized, oil pipes cut off or seized. That situation has the potential to make the Catalonia one look like a cakewalk.
Well they do have one outspoken backer, Israel, however it’s not backing a Kurdish state out of a feeling of justice for the poor Kurdish people, it’s more to do with having another non-arab state in the region.
If an existing government is not listening to the people of one community under their jurisdiction, then that community might want to give the government a wake-up call by declaring independence.
But in Kurdistan , which receives one billion dollars a month in oil and other revenues it is not the main government , but the regional government that is failing to serve the community.
In Kurdistan Parliament has been suspended; municipal salaries have been suspended, and peace has been suspended by the President’s request for a violent Islamist army to come and wreak trouble for Baghdad. Barzani’s only reason for calling for independence is that it is a 100 years slogan since the British colonial power carved up Kurdistan into 4 parts in 1918. Barzani thinks that a vote for independence will be a substitute for his expired mandate.
It isn’t a substitute for democratic legitimacy, it is more like David Cameron calling a referendum on brexit because he knows his party has no legitimacy having been brought to power by the Liberal democrats. When politicians fix elections, it only increases the pressure for change. in the UK that pressure is now at bursting point and I doubt May’s government (in the Scottish meaning) will be gone by the end of next month.
Craig
Of course it’s to a large extent a question of how you define “liberation struggles” and “illegal” but it is fair to say that, on the whole, the British Empire was given up peaceably and the French Empire in Africa likewise. This contrasts with the end of the Portuguese and Dutch Empires.
But these are questions of process. I should still be interested to hear whether – and if so, how – you equate the break-up of colonial empires with the break-up of modern unitary states.
‘.. Unless of course one were to consider Spain, the UK, Czechoslovakia and Pakistan to themselves be mini-empires …..
Two of those named possess nuclear weapons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
That is indeed the case but I fail to see the relevance to the subject under discussion.
Surely you are not saying that the UK (as currently constituted) and Pakistan (at the time of Bangladeshi secession) are/were mini-Empires?
If your point is other, perhaps you would care to flesh out your comment a little?
Democracy and human rights are relatively new concepts for Spain and the Spannish Government. It was late in the day when Spain managed to get it’s house in order to the extent that it could be allowed into the UN and to be blunt it was their geostrategic position at the entrance to the MED that “rehabilitated” them into the family of nations rather than anything else. Indeed, there was a significant debate on the influence of the US in Spain’s parallel democratic transition and accession negotiations to the then EEC, which was facilitated largely on a direct initiative of the US Congress for the promotion of democratisation in the 1970s. The original EEC founders didn’t want Spain “in”, but the US did. What particularly alarmed the US was the then aspiration of the Spannish Government to develop an independant nuclear capability. Having Spain included in Euratom was seen as crucial as was the mutual defence argument of having them as a full Nato member.
With respect, your post contains a number of tendentious inaccuracies. Just to flag a couple:
“Democracy and human rights are relatively new concepts for Spain and the Spannish Government.”
Meaningless if meant as a comparison with other European countries and irrelevant to the discussion underway regarding the question of possible Catalan independence, where the point is that Spain is a solid democracy in the here and now.
” The original EEC founders didn’t want Spain “in”, but the US did.”
The process of Spanish accession to the EU had no more to do with US wishes than the establishment of the the EEC itself; although both projects were looked on with favour by the US, they were European-led.
“What particularly alarmed the US was the then aspiration of the Spannish Government to develop an independant nuclear capability. ”
This is the first time that I – and probably most others – have heard of Spanish nuclear aspirations; I doubt that the post-War economic position of Spain would have permitted any such. But, as always, I stand ready to be corrected.
Scottish nationalists like myself …
The Yes movement in Scotland is essentially socialist…
…to create a more communitarian society.
?
Ii is only in the 20th century that nationalism came to be associated with autocracy, In the 19th Century the opposite was the case.
Most independence supporting Scots want Independence to free themselves from neo-liberal political rule from England. That is not really hard to understand, by those who are not being deliberately obtuse. You are being deliberately obtuse, however.
It is only in the 20th century that nationalism came to be associated with autocracy, In the 19th Century the opposite was the case.
Was Napoleon Bonaparte a democrat ?
I can’t believe you wrote that Craig.
Most independence supporting Scots want Independence to free themselves from neo-liberal political rule from England. That is not really hard to understand, by those who are not being deliberately obtuse. You are being deliberately obtuse, however.
This is where I disagree. Many Scottish nationalists, as well as many Catalonian nationalists and even many Brexiteers want out of the Neoliberal system. That system though, is centred in Washington DC, Wall Street (and increasingly Beijing). If a group of people want self determination then I am the last person to stand in their way, however, I question where Scottish Independence, Catalonian independence or Brexit will leave the respective peoples in relation to the global empire.
Socialism it is argued, is in its very essence international, and recognises the predicament of all who live under ‘the capitalist empire’ of the US. Borders, and therefore nationalism are, in truth antithetical to the socialist cause of world liberation.
Communitarianism (despite its many variants) is frowned upon by most socialists because they see the state as the primary instrument for balancing/ controlling/ destroying the market.
You can invoke three different political ideas to promote your wish of independence, fine, but before you call me ‘obtuse’ I want to read a coherent description of how empowered Scottish communities would relate to the Scottish state, or how the Scottish state would interact with a globalised hegemonic system of hyper-capitalism-run-by-monomaniacal-Americans-with-a-fetish-for-manifest-destiny.
We are all in this mess together Craig, and whilst you might point at other nationalist movements and say ‘bad’, but Scottish , ‘good’, I read an increasingly ‘them and us’ attitude to Scotsnat commentary, lumping all ‘English’ along with the small band of crooks who are Washington’s emissaries in Westminster.
Madam May, our Supreme Leader, is in Estonia for a EU summit. It appears she has caught a cold.
There have been cyber war games in Estonia earlier also known as NATO military exercises under the name Locked Shields 2017.
World’s largest cyber defence exercise takes place in Estonia
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_143301.htm
Stoltenberg has just visited the Estonian PM.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_146628.htm?selectedLocale=en
Estonia seems to be the destination of choice for the war mongers these days. Are they trying to frighten the Russian president?
Why does May keep jazzing round the planet? There’s so much to sort out at home for Theresa to attend to and the Tory party gathering should be interesting.
She has got to make sure that NATO sticks with her grubby little nasty party and its right wing causes in Europe, sharp ears.
The UK is as much feeding out of filthy rogue hands as the US, a symbiotic relationship that is undermining security, creating uncertainty in all, including the establishment who are the first to succumb to nationalism.
A Catalan Independent/Autonomous region would be a continuous thorn in Spain’s establishment side as it would restart the Basque Independent movement.
To compare Catalan’s industrial leaders to the Mafia like Northern league in Italy who’s leader/Don just emptied the party coffers is a slur. I don’t think that their historical social concerns for their fellow Catalan workers were ever replicated or achieved by the Longobards or their equivalent today.
“So it is a meaningless truism to say that it is illegal for Catalonia to hold a referendum on Independence. The idea that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements, is rejected by international law.”
Yet in 2014.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2014/09/orange-march-is-illegal/
Fred, that article says it is illegal under Scottish law for a uniformed organisation to match for a political purpose. It bears no relation whatsoever to the legality of national self-determination.
I know, laws are there as a stick to beat Unionists and are unjust and unfair when used against Nationalists who are quite whithin their rights to ignore them.
Craig Has Met A Woman..Very Brifefly At Doune. Whom Beat Cancer… Listeningwater… ” About to Touch ” We Had a Wild Hawiian Night In stead of Touching / Landing on Coll
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2jpGnuMETA&t=60s
Should Add.. The Holliday was all Booked..then only Days before the Adventure..TOLD NO… Almost Touch them Beaches.
Fred is comparing a 50/50 engineered stand off in NI, with a 80/20 full support, for decades, in Catalonia.
I am comparing the law with the law.
You are showing inordinate ignorance. Nations have the power to create domestic laws. They can for example legislate domestically on maximum road speeds, or on whether people are allowed to hold uniformed marches for political purposes.
What a nation cannot do is seek to override established international law – such as a people’s write to self determination – by a piece of domestic legislation.
International law is by definition law between nations. Self determination does not equate to independence under international law, and what defines a people does not neccesserily equate to Catelonia which has never been an independent country.
The right to self determination is there to protect countries which have been colonised or are under foreign occupation, not to interfere in the internal affairs of an independent state, that would deny the state self determination. The United Nations views Catelonia as a region of Spain so international law does not apply, national laws do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm2TAL53wVc
LOLZ
Excellent, Sharp Ears – does your dog bite?! ?
I have been using http://www.catalannews.com/ for English language news, including a daily presented news digest.
The idea that the right to self-determination of a people can be alienated by pre-existing constitutional arrangements, is rejected by international law.
I agree, but that does not mean that Catalunya has a right under international law to secede unilaterally. I think the Supreme Court of Canada got it quite right in its case on the secession of Quebec: No right to secede, but in the event of a vote for secession the central government and the regional one have an obligation to negotiate in good faith to work towards making independence happen.
As for sources, I’ve been reading The Spain Report: https://www.thespainreport.com/
Incidentally this is why it was so amusing that El Pais cheered about how many professors of international law, including professors in Catalunya, agreed that Catalunya had no right to secede: https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/09/26/actualidad/1506424550_261561.html
Well yes, but that’s beside the point.
A very pressing and unfashionable cause with some Conservatives who think that walking away means jubilations and absolute power. A well written view of the negotiations from two commentators, depicting Davis and Barnier as two runners who are told to run on the spot…
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/what-strategy-is-london-pursuing-with-brexit-talks-a-1169944.html
Why no mention of Kurdistan in that piece?
Alex
I have often asked for commenters’ opinions on whether they would in principle view with favour the creation of an independent state of Kurdistan. Reactions have been sparse and on the whole rather evasive; dicersion from the question has not been uncommon.
Of course, it is difficult to understand why vocal supporters of independence for Scotland and Catalonia should not also be in favour of independence for the Kurds – inter alia because of the way the Kurds have tended to be treated in the countries where they reside. Perhaps the reason for this reticence is that the poster-boy states of Iraq, Syria and Iran would lose some bits of their territory…?
Re Iran – here’s an interesting piece from the Economist
https://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21729790-referendum-held-iraqi-kurds-revving-up-their-iranian-cousins-irans-kurds
Refer to my 14.50pm comment.
I have never seen such a question in 10 years reading this blog. Could it be that by joining the dots between Israel..Islamic State.. and Kurdistan your memory is wrong?
I recall such an exchange around a year ago, with (I think) Nevermind proposing to resolve the “Kurdish question” by the solution of the generous donation of territory to the new state hem hem. Unfortunately this blog site is hard to search, especially for comments which may have been dropped down the memory hole inexplicably. (Example: Habbabkuk’s recent ephemerous debate with Tony Opmoc on whether the sins of the fathers should be visited on their children, gone forever.)
Habbabkuk
If, as it appears, the majority of inhabitants in the area want an independent Kurdistan I would be all in favour in principle. They seem to have suffered greatly in all four countries by which they are currently ruled. Will the US support a Kurdish state carved out from Iraq and Syria? Difficult to see why not, and they’ve almost certainly promised the Kurds that they will. But the Kurds always end up being sold down the river. They may just be used as a bargaining chip again
On the other hand I am disappointed both by the push for Catalan independence, and by the Spanish governments disastrously heavy-handed response.
Also I have moved away from support for Scottish independence. I would rather Scotland remain in the Union, but if they strongly wish to leave then so be it.
Both Catalan and Scottish independence movements seem somewhat frivolous when compared with the ordeals of the Kurds
Read Oded Yinon on Israel’s plan to destabilise and destroy surrounding countries. It’s working out very well.
‘Linda S. Heard, writing for CounterPunch in 2006, reviewed recent policies under George W. Bush such as the war on terror, and events in the Middle East from the Iran-Iraq war to the Invasion of Iraq in 2003, and concluded:
There is one thing that we do know. Oded Yinon’s 1982 “Zionist Plan for the Middle East” is in large part taking shape. Is this pure coincidence? Was Yinon a gifted psychic? Perhaps! Alternatively, we in the West are victims of a long-held agenda not of our making and without doubt not in our interests.
The Canadian economist Michel Chossudovsky on his website Global Research reproduced Shahak’s translation in April 2013, arguing that it threw light for the concept of a Greater Israel in the policies of the Likud-led government coalition led by Binjamin Netanyahu and circles within the Israeli military and intelligence establishment.’
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yinon_Plan
Also a view from Israel –
‘Independence. It Is Also Unwise
Israel isn’t doing the Kurds any favors’
Anshel Pfeffer Sep 28, 2017
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.814229
It seems that a lot of human rights activists manifestly despise the humans whose rights they are activists for. In a more sane world this would perhaps be considered something of a problem.
On what basis do the rights of Catalans take precedence over the rights of citizens of Extremadura. Notwithstanding EU expansion to the east Extremadura still qualifies as one of the poorest regions of the EU. Obviously the rest of Spain to some extent subsidizes Exrremadura and Catalonia, as the richest community in Spain, sees some of its wealth transferred to poorer areas.
How come all those people so in favor of Catalan independence are among the very first to decry rich individuals who evade or avoid tax because they don’t want to pay for poor people.
If you are British and are in favor of Catalan independence then you should also be highly supportive of people like Philip Green, and laud all people who seek to deposit their wealth in places like the BVI or Panama. Tax loopholes are your best friend and you should be constantly agitating for and voting for people who want to tax the rich less. If you have any reservations regarding Philip Green or if you have any sympathy for people who no longer have BHS pensions then you meet the exact definition of hypocrite.
Between the end of the Spanish civil war and 1952 it is estimated that some 114,000 people “disappeared” in Spain. Even after 1952 many people continued to be imprisoned, tortured and “disappeared”
These events are still within living memory for a number of people. What is to be gained by potentially reopening such grievous wounds?
It was Ortega y Gasset who opined that “Spain is the problem, Europe is the solution” – He was wrong Spain is not the problem, greed allied to ideologically driven human rights activists is the problem
Evil British ‘colonial power’ in Cameroon? Not quite. What is now much the greater part of Cameroon (formerly German) was mandated to the French in 1919.The Western strip only was under British control. Most of this was absorbed into Nigeria in 1960. The southern remnant – British Cameroon – became part of Cameroon proper in 1961. We never had a mandate over most of Cameroon. And as a dogwhistle exemplar for Scottish independence*, it fails. Having achieved independence, Cameroon didn’t immediately join the EU and surrender its autonomy again. 🙂
^Or maybe you had some other motive for raising the topic? Just possible, I suppose
Baal.
After WWI, Cameroon became a League of Nations Mandate territory. It was split in two, with British and French controlled parts.
In 1960 the French part of Cameroon became independent. However the UN had to organise a plebiscite in the British controlled part of Cameroon, as Britain wasn’t too keen on letting go.
The Northern region of the British controlled Cameroon, opted to join Nigeria, whilst the southern part, opted to become part of Cameroon.
I could counter you’re dogwhistle claim by saying tha Westminster isn’t keen either on letting Scotland go, when the 2014 lies and scaremongering are taken into account.
“Westminster isn’t keen either on letting Scotland go, when the 2014 lies and scaremongering are taken into account”
Lies and scaremongering don’t have a vote. If they did the result of the Brexit referendum would have been very different.
“Lies and scaremongering don’t have a vote. ”
On the contrary, lies and scaremongering greatly influence a vote, especially when the entire media are propagating them, against a group of people, as in the 2014 Scottish indyref.
L
But they can be overcome, as in the 2016 Brexyref.
Madrid’s attempt to curtail democracy for Catalonia is matched by London’s attempt to curtail democracy for Scotland. To take the country of Scotland out the EU against an actual democratic vote and deny an independence referendum is no different from the actions of the Francoists.
What is darkly comic is the degree to which so much of the parliamentary Left joins with the Right of Europe to tacitly agree to deny Catalans any support or even sympathy. This proves that the diffusion of power that comes from Anarchy is the way forward. A Europe of the regions the way ahead for the EU.
The fascists of the 1930s were unmistakable. The governing fascists in London, Madrid and Paris of today conceal their anti-democratic beliefs with public relations, social media and marketing skills. Albert Speer did once say that fascism would return, but that it would return disguised as anti-fascism.
Julian Assange has said in a interview with a Catalonian radio station that “attacks on freedom of expression push Spain towards a censorship similar to that in China”
Of course if it were a region crying out for autonomy from China, Iran, or Russia the hypocritical bastards in the west would be screaming out loud of the injustice.
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/catalonia-will-set-a-precedent-for-democracy-in-europe-and-the-western-world-said-assange
80,000 people including 16,000 students flooded Barcelona, shouting defend the referendum, and we will vote.
Student strikes also took part in other major Catalan cities such as Tarragona and Lleida.
Around 250 students also congregated outside the train station in Girona, to join protesters in Barcelona, while in Tarragona roughly 1,500 students took to the streets in defence of the referendum.
Meanwhile.
Spanish ambassador threatens Finnish MP over security issues for his support to Catalonia.
http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/spanish-ambassador-threatens-finnish-mp-over-security-issues-for-his-support-to-catalonia
It is estimated that across Spain some 12 million people (or about 25% of the entire population) took to the streets in the aftermath of the Madrid train bombings.
The numbers that you are quoting seem tiny by comparison.
Did I mention Spain as a whole? No I think not, I was referring to Catalonia. There will be many, many more Cataloninan’s who are apprehensive about openly declaring their support for independence, but will make a genuine effort to vote.
There are about 7.6 million people in Catalonia. 25% of 7.6 million is 1.9 million.
1.9 million Catalans would need to protest for the protest to be equivalent to the protests against the Madrid train bombings. Your numbers sum to 81,750 so you are approximately 1.82 million short.
Loony.
I don’t see your point, Catalonia is the region preparing to vote yes or no to independence. The rest of Spain regardless of its vastly greater population doesn’t matter.
The only numbers that matter are those the yes side can marshal, against the no side.
@ Loony September 29, 2017 at 17:51
An interesting article on the Madrid train bombings:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/march-11-2004-the-madrid-3-11-bombings-was-it-really-an-attack-by-islamic-terrorists/16424
Whoever ‘did it’, seems there is solid evidence of very shady police involvement, at least in the aftermath.
“The numbers that you are quoting seem tiny by comparison.”
Depends what you compare them to.
https://twitter.com/AgentP22/status/910602227051646977
I’m pretty sure that image was late on around 5pm 6pm when mosted had tailed off.
Here’s a lovely image of your fellow Britnats in George Sq, enjoy.
https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/gs1.jpg
Ah. Colonel Davidson’s people.
I see your fellow Scotnats have been making the news, from today they are a banned terrorist organisation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/national-action-neo-nazi-scottish-dawn-ns131-banned-terrorism-laws-home-office-british-soldiers-west-a7971906.html
Unsurprisingly that racist mob loathe the SNP government, calling them fascists. I recall someone not a milion miles away referring to the SNP in a similar fashion.
Last nights 6pm news showed a blonde woman, associated with those vile people finish her xenophobic tirade, with the words “No surrender.”
I’ll leave you to work out, which group regularly use that slogan.
“Unsurprisingly that racist mob loathe the SNP government, calling them fascists. I recall someone not a milion miles away referring to the SNP in a similar fashion.”
Who did that?
Well Fred, to be frank, you often refer to nationalists (SNP are nationalists) in Scotland as black/brown shirts, and on occasion you also called them, and their suporters Nazi’s, they promoted, a nasty form of nationalism, of which some believe is a extreme form of fascism.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
I refer to a party which claims to be Nationalist and Socialist by a word which is an abreviation of National Socialist?
Tens of thousands of people gather in Barcelona to sing the Cataloninan national anthem.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CatalansForYes/status/913503014849310720
It reminds me of the indy marches in Scotland.
Latest.
Spanish government closes Barcelona airspace to prevent aerial images of Sunday’s independence vote.
Catalonian police chief defies Spanish government, by saying he won’t enforce police brutality on Sunday.
https://mobile.twitter.com/CatalansForYes?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwingsoverscotland.com%2Fheres-to-you-mr-robinson%2Fcomment-page-1%2F%23comments
Spanish military police confiscate 2.5 million ballot papers and 4 million envelopes in Barcelona.
100 ballot boxes were also removed.
Also, Goldman Sachs predicts a victory for independence on Sunday….erm is having Goldman Sachs favour independence a bad sign? Have they put a hex on it.
Ros
The coercive nature of state power – that is usually hidden – has been forced to reveal itself in Catalonia through the actions of the Spanish government.
All very Foucaldian.
And Scotland is subject to that same kind of coercive state power that denies us membership of the EU.
reel guid.
We in Scotland realy need broadcasting to be devolved Catalonia has at least six devolved tv channels. Imagine the difference that would make to our cause.
No Britnat lies or scaremongering just facts.
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2009/09/23125613/5
Yes. The BBC impartiality myth really served the British state very well. It can’t compete with the internet and citizen journalism now though.
Meanwhile.
Jackie Baillie’s “Pishgate” claims its first victim.
http://www.thenational.scot/news/15566986._Latest_Jackie_Baillie_pish__email_claims_its_first_Scottish_Labour_scalp/
Is it even possible for the London Labour branch office in Scotland to become a bigger laughing stock than it already is?
RoS – unbelievable, getting the sack for saying Jackie Baillie was talking ‘pish’! What did he do wrong? ?
JOML.
He spoke the truth, a no no. ?
Why would Soros fund Catalonian Independence?
Mind you, from his point of view, the amounts involved are piffling.
I wonder does he even know about it?
Maybe he thinks it could lead to civil war in Spain.
People such as Soros are obsessed with war. He is probably funding the opposite side too. That is the normal modus operandi of Billionaires such as Soros. They just want to destroy. They fund both sides and like watching them kill each other.
“George Soros is funding the independence of Catalonia”
http://www.voltairenet.org/article198106.html
Tony
**Catalonia latest*** the Spanish courts order Google to shut down apps, links and maps that show Catalonian people where to go to vote.
Republicofscotland,
That will just make them more determined to vote.
Aneu Catalunya per la independència i la democràcia
Tony
Dear Ambassador Murray.
I do admire your bold/highly courageous stance on contentious political matters. And I need to confess that I’m a regular visitor/reader of your blog. In most cases I do approve/share your thinking as expressed in your blog writings. By the way, I’ve also contributed to your defence fund with regard to the libel action against you by Jake Wallis Simons (or, rather, by [..] Mark Lewis:)),
However, I was disturbed by your statement in your most recent blog post (i.e. in “Unfashionable Causes”) where you wrote that “Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia did not obtain Independence by a process negotiated from the start with the Soviet Union. The actions which initiated their Independence were illegal”.
As a proud citizen of a Baltic State, I feel shocked by your statement. I did presume that you – a former high ranking official (Ambassador) of the UK FCO – should had been aware of the history of the Baltic States. In any case, I dare to remind you that the United Kingdom (and a number of other Western States) have never recognised de jure the Soviet annexation of the Baltic States in 1940 and that the Baltic States have had maintained their diplomatic missions in the UK (and in some other countries), I’m absolutely convinced that your attempt to make a parallel between the Baltic States which, “IMHO”, LEGALLY REGAINED/REESTABLISHED their Independence in 1991 and the case of Catalonia’s independence is Inappropriate. If needed, I stand ready to submit a documented justification of my stance on the essential difference between the Catalonia’s case and the Baltic States’s statehood matter.
Petrus,
Of course I support fully the independence of your country and agree with what you say. My point was rather that no internal laws of the Soviet Union could remove your right to self-determination. The precise histories of no two peoples are the same, but they all have the right of self-determination. I hope your object – and the object of Baltic governments – is not to look for historical differences to justify the denial of that right to the Catalonians.
Re Unfashionable Causes. I have never been a Luddite and have no problem with computers nor robotics. The essential thing is that society is organised, such that we can all be reasonably happy and content, just maybe working 2 or 3 days a month doing stuff that computers and robots can’t do – like looking after people when they for example, get run over by a car and survive. (She’s doing Great!)
Today he bought a Cement Mixer for £50 off ebay – It weighs 45KG, and I helped him off load it. I could kind of understand that…he wants to learn how to build a garden wall. I will watch. I do have a spirit level. But he also spent several hundred quid on a 3D printer – I looked at him as if he’s completely mad – thinking what on earth he is going to do with that???
They are both electric, and the cement mixer has got wheels. He hasn’t got the electric motors for the wheels yet, but he will probably be able to program it. He did get his drone to fly (though it keeps crashing).
I have already provided the sand, cement and the bricks.
Such is Family Life.
Without that you have nothing much to build on.
Tony
What is ‘legal’ and ‘illegal’ in terms of countries is extremely difficult to define. After all, the current world as we know it is an artificial mixture of countries with borders defined by wars of colonisation, decolonization, occupation, settlement and civil wars. The only legitimacy seems to be that of might is right and facts on the ground. A lot of movements to split countries are mixed up with local perception of advantage in splitting to some and in outside vested interests. In a way the vogue for independence movements is a manifestation of a general rebellion against globalisation. Moreover there is not necessarily a coincidence or equivalence between the different movements in terms of political alignment left or right. In addition to all this is the nascent tribalism that is beginning to arise in some countries especially of Eastern Europe that is akin to toxic nationalism. I have always found it a strange reconciliations between movements in Europe who want to split from thier parent countries and still remain within the globalised structure of the EU. I know I may be stepping on dangerous territory and stirring a hornet’s nest saying all this on this website but there you are.
Isn’t the Catalan vote akin to England holding a vote seeking to jettison heavy public sector employment costs of Wales and Scotland. It wouldn’t be on would it.
fwl, No.
A load of us English,Welsh, Sottish and Irish went to Catalonia last year. Whilst they obviously didn’t really like us, compared to The Spanish (who they completely hated) they thought we were O.K.
Us British didn’t cause any trouble whatsoever, despite the most outrageous serial provocation.
(You know when you seriously want to hit someone but think its not a particularly good idea)
I don’t thinkThe Spanish know what they are dealing with..
Let them have their Independence if that is what they want in a fair Democratic Vote – or they won’t calm down.
It won’t make any real difference. They wil still trade with Spain and The rest of The World, but The Catalans will now have Their Pride and Independence, and when us British turn up they will probably be nice and friendly with us. No current plans to go back.
We don’t have a problem with Barcelona – We just prefer Spain and even France (and The French are obnoxious too)
Go Catalonia – VOTE INDEPENDENT
Before The Rest of The World Tells You To Do One.
Majority wins.
Tony
No. Here’s a brief history of Catalonia (apparently by a disinterested writer).
http://thisisspain.info/catalonia/history-of-catalonia/
Thanks, I will read up before posting further on Catalonian independence.
Even though “The Yes movement in Scotland is essentially socialist and is broadly looking to substantial economic and social reform to be initiated after Independence to create a more communitarian society”, that does not mean if they were successful in gaining an independent Scotland it would become their heaven. As reality arrived and bills had to be paid Scotland may well end up as a right wing police state ,in order to please it;s master, who would be the country or state who would lend it the money it needs to pay it’s bills. just as those newly independent Eastern European states enthusiastically sided with George Bush and Blair in the invasion of Iraq, (eg Poland’s torture camps ) and who also give staunch support to Israel.
Or maybe you really have found that money tree and Scotland will be the new land of milk and honey.
You, Geoffrey, and Jackie Baillie? Why do you think Scotland would not be able to pay their bills, whereas other small countries manage? No one is talking about heaven, apart from sarcastic unionists and those talking ‘pish’.
I came across Linh Dinh several years ago on the internet. I have even seen him on Internet TV. He is the kind of guy I would like to meet in a bar in Texas – if I had the balls to travel there by Greyhound bus…like he does.
Linh Dinh, I think comes from Vietnam, and lives in America. He is a far better photographer than Pepe Escobar (who I would also like to meet in a bar anywhere)
They both travel a lot and they both write brilliantly from first hand experience. They don’t make it up. What They see is What you get.
“Empire Idiots”
“Linh Dinh • September 9, 2017 – Catalonia”
http://www.unz.com/ldinh/empire-idiots/
RESPECT
Tony
Racist tweets Councillor Robert Davies is finally out the Tory Party after he refused to apologise to a meeting of Stirling Council. Has he been thrown out the party? Did he resign? No one is saying.
This after he was reinstated recently, with Ruth Davidson saying he was repentant and deserved another chance. At the time of the reinstatement it was claimed by the Tories that Davies and fellow Tory miscreant Alistair Majury would undergo diversity training. Although the press were unable to find any record of such training.
They used to be the party of business. Now they’re just the party of monkey business.
One rule for decent human beings, another for Ruth et al (heavily supported by the daily rags – of all paper sizes). Reel guid – thanks for persevering!